S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Glory]

15 hours ago, janjan said:

 

• Sansa is afraid of Arya, or afraid for her. I couldn't tell which. In the crypt, Arya told Sansa about her list. Sansa was taken aback, but then they both laughed. Har har, funny joke. But then Arya accepted the dagger from Not!Bran, and Sansa looked worried. And when she saw Arya defeat Brienne, that sealed it. It was no joke. Is she afraid her killer sister will turn on her, or is she afraid that Arya will pursue the list and get killed herself?
•  

I wonder if I'm the only one who read that situation as Sansa realizing what a weapon she has in her sister? I saw it more as, "Well, look at her. She probably could kill Cersei. And anyone else she thought necessary," as Sansa glances at Littlefinger. 

I'm going to need to rewatch, but I saw her being more impressed than worried. 

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Re-watching the Attack on the Wagon Train, there are a few absolutely top-notch shots:

NTL/AMR  (my own netspeak for Never Too Long/Always Must Read)

NOW I'm going to have to re-watch the battle scene again! At least you've given me something to distract me from the horror.

5 minutes ago, Glory said:

I'm going to need to rewatch, but I saw her being more impressed than worried. 

She may have been impressed, but I didn't see that in her reaction. I'll have to re-watch that too.

So glad you are able to post along with the rest of us this season, Glory.

[ChocButterfly]

2 hours ago, janjan said:

RD could indeed have been speaking metaphorically [again I say, ya think? ] about Not!Bran's flying. He himself, as a raven, could fly, but his body was stuck in the roots. Not!Bran could probably manage a dragon, just as he managed a horse thanks to Tyrion's saddle design. But he could be flying only in his mind.

I always thought that meant Bran could warg a dragon, making him the third Dragon "Rider".

 

15 hours ago, janjan said:

Who's going to ride the third dragon? Assuming Drogon doesn't die. [ I'm warning you, Show. ] Clearly, Arya gets one, and Dany will ride Not!Dead Drogon. There's one left. .

Nah, Arya is no Targaryan, she cannot ride a Dragon. Bran could warg him, but never ride him. The second Rider will be obviously Jon.

16 hours ago, gingerella said:

Did he?!? I have to be honest Choc, I watched that entire scene through my hands so I know I missed a lot, I do know that Jamie and I think Bronn (though it could have been Dickon) dove into the water just as Drogon flambeed them, and it's not clear if they drowned or will be captured...But hey, if Pa Tarly burned, that's a plus right there, he was a right royal arsehole! See, this is where I can now see a brotherly truce growing between Sam and Dick, it just requires that the fetid Pa be gonzo!

I'm honestly not sure, everything was so fast. But I thought I saw a guy burning that looked just like Papa Tarly. But then, they all look alike to me, right Papa Tarly looks in mind like what I remember of Sir....Damn, forgot his name!! That old Sir who was  dissmissed by Cersei, joined Dany and then was killed by the Harpies. S

So yeah, maybe  Papa Tarly is still alive.

[Anothermi]

46 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

I always thought that meant Bran could warg a dragon, making him the third Dragon "Rider".

That as good as riding. I'm on board (so to speak) with that spitball, Choc.

49 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

That old Sir who was  dissmissed by Cersei, joined Dany and then was killed by the Harpies.

Barriston Selmy.

Nah. He didn't look like he had a stick up his ass.

51 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

The second Rider will be obviously Jon.

I don't see why any rider has to be a Targ. Just because they were Targs who 1st rode them doesn't mean dragons only accept Targs. Rhaegal & Viserion (thanks @Nymeria for the character list, still using it) let Tyrion get close to them and take their chains off. And he's a Lannister for the God's sake! I don't really want Jon to ride a dragon, but if he does end up being the one I'll be a little upset because it has been Arya's dream, not Jon's. I'd honestly be happy if Tyrion got to be a dragon rider. Just NOT Jon.

[walnutqueen]

@Pallas and @janjan, I am so very sorry for your losses.

[janjan]

16 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I'd honestly be happy if Tyrion got to be a dragon rider. Just NOT Jon.

Achilles went out in a blaze of glory, when he finally got done sulking in his tent. Still, I'm with you: Not Jon.

[Llywela]

The Targaryens, the ones considered 'dragons', like Dany, are at an advantage in the dragon-riding stakes because they are fire-proof - but we already know that Jon isn't fire-proof, because of that time he burned his hand, way back when. So in that sense, he's no more qualified to ride a dragon than Arya is, despite being the son of a Targaryen. I'd say the other two rider positions are both still up for grabs! Time will tell.

[Anothermi]

Llywella. I loved your entire 1st post on this episode. So much to think about.

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I can't believe we have lived long enough to see three whole Starks in the same scene again at long last! I join with Sansa in wishing Jon were there too

'Struth!   It does seem to be a miracle that we made it. <moment of silence for those who did not>

Quote

I also love how matter-of-fact Sansa was in telling Arya that Bran has visions now, and how Arya just shrugged it off, like…they've both seen so much weird crap in the last few years, nothing seems unbelievable anymore!

I hadn't really taken that in. Thanks for bringing that observation. It may be obvious, but deserves saying anyway;  I wouldn't get a fraction as much out of this show without the added POV of my Spitball Wall brethren.

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They are all painfully young still – Arya, Sansa, Bran - also Jon, Dany and Theon, really. Bear Island is ruled by a 10-year-old, the Eerie by a 12-year-old. It drives home the devastating effect of war, with the vast majority of the older generation now completely swept away, only a few holdouts remaining, with their children forced to grow up too fast to take their place.

This almost made me cry because it made me think that there are youths in present day experiencing that in our world.

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The Jon-Theon reunion was strangely muted, cut short by the segue to Dany waging war – but I suspect there must surely be more to come. I'm intrigued by Theon's request for help in rescuing Yara, as she once attempted to rescue him – will Dany honour their alliance by granting that request, distraction though it would be from her attempted conquest?

Yes! There HAS to be more to come. Theon, himself, has had such a horrific journey. He did drag himself back from his complete reversion to Reek during Urine's attack  and capture of Yara. * He knew, however, that facing Jon was not something he could do voluntarily. Someone up-thread^ noted that he gave a brief flicker of Reek's return as Jon strode towards him, but he recovered to his credit, and got on with his mission to save his sister - which he swore to do, but failed. He's not going to accept that he is a failure any more. Even it it kills him.

(^Apologies to the poster who 1st mentioned this. I searched, but failed to find it again to give you your due.)

* From S06E02: Home

Quote

 

Sansa: We just have to make it to Castle Black. Once we're with Jon, Ramsay won't be able to touch us.

Theon: Jon will have me killed the moment I step through the gate.

S: I won't let him. I'll tell him the truth about Bran and Rickon.

T: And the truth about the farm boys I killed in their place. And the truth about Ser Rodrik, who I beheaded. And the truth about Robb, who I betrayed.

S: When you take the black, all your crimes are forgiven.

T: I don't want to be forgiven. I can never make amends to your family for the things I've done. They'll keep you safer than I ever could.

S: You're not coming with us?

T: I would have taken you all the way to the Wall. I would have died to get you there.

May I take one of the horses?

S: Where will you go?

T: Home.

 

I'll address your thoughts on Dany/Jon in another post. This one is getting long.

But one last thing.

Quote

I thought the cave writings were in a different cave than the huge one with all the obsidian that Jon plans to mine - he wanted Dany to see what the cavern looked like, huge and glittery, before they start hacking the obsidian out. Then he said he wanted to show her something else, and took her through to a different cave, with the wall art all over it. So the ancient art might be safe.

The cave writing was in the same cave they 1st entered. Just in a different offshoot. But having said that, and going back to that scene, I don't actually think he will mine that cave. It has symbolic importance. It shows that the Children and the First Men fought together against the WW threat.

We know the WW were created as a weapon against the First Men - by the Children. Now, I don't think  Jon actually knows that, but he saw the runes indicating that beings as different as the Children and the First Men understood that they had to join forces - what ever their differences - to defeat this enemy. And he hoped Dany would see that too.

[ChocButterfly]

7 hours ago, Pallas said:

More later: on vacation but off to look at a young mamma cat to join the household, bereft of my nearly-20-year Calypso, since last week. 

Oh, sorry, I didn't understand what you meant by that, but now that I reread it I see you lost your cat, sorry. As well as Janjan's horse :(

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I don't see why any rider has to be a Targ. Just because they were Targs who 1st rode them doesn't mean dragons only accept Targs.

Well...IF the dragons must be ridden by someone with Targ blood, and IF Tywin's snit about being unable to prove Tyrion is NOT his blood has truth to it and Tyrion is possibly half Targ, then I would assume the riders would be Dany, Jon and Tyrion. The Imp riding a dragon, now what a sight that would be, eh? I dont necessarily care if Jon's a rider or not, so I am curious why some of you seem very opposed to that, is it because it puts Jon too much in harm's way, or something else? I cant see a reason for Arya to be a rider because I cannot find a direct link TO the dragons that makes any sense. With Tyrion and Jon, yes, links can be found, but not with Arya.

 

Also, we know that the Children created the WWs to fend off the First Men, then we learned that the Children fought side by side with the First Men against the WWs. Do we know how the WW's got out of the control of the Children? I mean, if they created them, presumably they could destroy them, couldn't they? Do we know what it is about the WWs that got so out of control that the Children's magic stopped working on them? I wonder if the Night King was a Child of the Forest gone awry somehow, and that's the reason they cannot over ride their WW creations...And lastly, do we know if there are any Children left now, surely they all were not living with Root Dude were they?

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I wonder if the Night King was a Child of the Forest gone awry somehow, and that's the reason they cannot over ride their WW creations...And lastly, do we know if there are any Children left now, surely they all were not living with Root Dude were they?

Bran was guided  by Root Dude to see that it was the CHoF who created the Night King. That guy didn't look at all like another CHoF - who are small and have greenish skin. He looked like the Free Folk and the Northerners. He was clearly a First Man. Sometimes things get beyond their creators (Frankenstien's monster) so Qyburn better watch his back. ;-)

I only remember 1 CHoF being in attendance with Root Dude. She looked just like the one who shoved the Dragonglass shard into the Heart of the man who became the Night King. There may be others elsewhere, lying low. Hanging for millennia with the Root Dude was probably that one CHoF's atonement for what she had done. If she could exist for millennia, it's likely that other CHoF could too.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Anothermi
clarification

[janjan]

40 minutes ago, gingerella said:

. . . then I would assume the riders would be Dany, Jon and Tyrion. The Imp riding a dragon, now what a sight that would be, eh? I dont necessarily care if Jon's a rider or not, so I am curious why some of you seem very opposed to that, is it because it puts Jon too much in harm's way, or something else?

Something else. It's not his style. Too flashy. With his black clothes and perpetual sour-puss, he would look silly on a dragon.

Anothermi: I cannot tell a lie. 'Twas I who noticed the flash of Reek. There is definitely more to come on that story. Not Theon on a dragon, though. Ridiculous. You have to whoop it up when you're riding a flame-thrower. He's all done whoopin'.

I'm picturing Jaime and Bronn and Dickon and Sam and Jorah all arriving at Dany's court all at once. Or else maybe not.

The Children really blew it with that WW tactic, eh? That First Man they impaled did have a Stark'ish look about him.

How did they all get from Dragonstone to the mainland?

And how did RD go to the bathroom?

So many questions.

[Anothermi]

11 minutes ago, janjan said:

And how did RD go to the bathroom?

For HIM that's easy. He was built-in compost (if he actually ate). Buuuuuut, since you mentioned it, I have wondered who did latrine duty for Bran? My guess is Hodor to start, but it would have had to be Meera after that.

Stuff this story doesn't tell.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

anothermi, are you saying that we've only seen ONE CHoF so far? I thought there were quite a few hunkered down with Root Dude, no?

[Anothermi]

We've only seen the one with Root Dude. There were more when Bran saw them create the NIght King, but they basically huddled in a corner having a confab before the one came and shoved the shard in his heart.

That was just a vision of the past, though.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

13 minutes ago, janjan said:

How did they all get from Dragonstone to the mainland?

That would have to be the Land Bridge that existed way back then and  was flooded over when the long summers came. Or not.

Our own early ancestors managed to get to Australia from Africa. And many other islands. There are always ways.

[Pallas]

Back from the shelter where I've bent the knee to a lovely one-year-old mamma cat, beguiling and serene,  who comes home with me on Saturday. Thank you janjan, walnutqueen and Choc, and janjan, my heart to you for your horse. 

So many wonderful posts.

20 hours ago, Anothermi said:

What has Bran lost that he can now find?

I don't know if Root Dude was alluding to Starkiana, but since then, Bran has found (1) Lyanna Stark's lost son, and (2) Benjen Stark.  Also, (3) Eddard Stark's complexity, beginning to be lost to the facelessness of loving memory.

 

10 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

TL/DR version: I love Drogon.

 

9 hours ago, janjan said:

That was the best battle scene I've ever seen. Better than Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards, IMHO, and even better than Spielberg's D-Day assault on Normandy (color helped, as did the dragon's POV from above).

Agreed. Transfixing. Peerlessly directed, shot, edited and post-ed, with all the pyrotechnics and big action sequences used less for shock and awe than to tell a story about people and a dragon we care for.  

 

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

Bran told her that while he can remember being Bran, he isn't really Bran any more, and she interpreted that as meaning he died in that cave after all, to become something else.

If Bran did die in the cave, at least in part, that means he too died with his direwolf: like Robb and (very nearly) Rickon. That leaves only Sansa as a survivor of her wolf. 

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

It is vaguely amusing to me that Valerian steel is apparently instantly recognisable, on sight. 

Or scent. What do we imagine dragon's breath smells like?

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

I'm intrigued by Theon's request for help in rescuing Yara, as she once attempted to rescue him – will Dany honour their alliance by granting that request, distraction though it would be from her attempted conquest? I honestly can't predict, at this stage.

Me neither. But...Dany has now lost two other female allies, and she knows what it is to be subjugated by a male relation. That may move her to intercede.Or at least, not stand in the way if Jon decides that he must lend a hand.

 

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

And while Dany is frustrated by that and keeps on and on at him to bend the knee, because for all her chain-breaking exploits in Essos she is apparently incapable of envisaging any political structure for Westeros that isn't exactly the same as her ancestors had, nonetheless she does, however grudgingly, respond to him as an equal, more so than she ever really has with anyone. They butt heads over their mutual stubbornness – seriously, if anyone ever doubted that these two are related, their scenes together should remove all doubt completely – but when she was torn over what to do in that scene on the beach, instincts in conflict with the cautions of her advisors, she turned to Jon not as an underling but as a fellow ruler: "What do you think I should do?" And she meant it.

Brava. Especially for chain-breaking exploits, lack of political imagination and consanguineous obstinacy. 

By the way, and speaking of consanguinity. In the opening credits, King's Landing still has a Stag as its badge. Why?  Cersei was crowned as Cersei of House Lannister, cursed of her name. The seed may have been strong, but all legitimate Baratheons are now (in the words of that long-ago TWoP poster, referring to SmokeBaby) black of air. 

[gingerella]

Dear Pallas, so sorry to hear about your beloved feline...yet so glad to know you are opening your home, hearth and heart to another in need...and Janjan, both Pallas and I share your love of horses, I cannot even imagine...My condolences to you both.

[Llywela]

6 hours ago, janjan said:

How did they all get from Dragonstone to the mainland?

When Dany was trying to decide what to do, in that scene on the beach, with all her advisors advising, someone - I think Tyrion - mentioned that she had enough ships left to get the Dothraki to the mainland, if she so wished. I think he was thinking of using them to blockade King's Landing, but taking out the Lannister army also worked! Probably just as well dear old Euron didn't foresee that turn of events, else he'd no doubt have teleported his own ships to the vicinity for a spot more smashing and burning.

Now, if Dany could just get wind of where Euron is harbouring his armada, she could surely put her dragons to good use once more by destroying it - however few ships she has left after his depredations, if she could take his away from him, she'd be left as clear ruler over the waters around Westeros, no other navy to stand in her way.

[janjan]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

What do we imagine dragon's breath smells like?

We'll never know. It burns your nose off.

Congrats on the new kitty! Long may she reign (they do, you know).

[Anothermi]

22 hours ago, Llywela said:

She has grown used to being the one in charge, her authority unquestioned – even her Westerosi allies have acknowledged her as their queen. But Jon doesn't. He approaches her as a fellow ruler, an equal. And while Dany is frustrated by that and keeps on and on at him to bend the knee, because for all her chain-breaking exploits in Essos she is apparently incapable of envisaging any political structure for Westeros that isn't exactly the same as her ancestors had, nonetheless she does, however grudgingly, respond to him as an equal, more so than she ever really has with anyone. They butt heads over their mutual stubbornness – seriously, if anyone ever doubted that these two are related, their scenes together should remove all doubt completely – but when she was torn over what to do in that scene on the beach, instincts in conflict with the cautions of her advisors, she turned to Jon not as an underling but as a fellow ruler: "What do you think I should do?" And she meant it.

 

You really got to the heart of this encounter haven't you Llywela?  This may be the genesis of the "spoke in the wheel" of the game that we sometimes speculate about. Thanks, mostly, to Tyrion, I might add.

WhiteStumbler posted a call back dialog from S0501: The Wars to Come where Jon tries to convince Mance Raydar to bend the knee to Stannis as a comparison to Jon now having Tyrion try to convince HIM to bend the knee to Danaerys.  (under spoiler tag only to save space and make it easy to refer to again)

Spoiler

...the parallels between Dany's efforts to get Jon to bend the knee and Jon's efforts to convince Mance to do the same to Stannis.

Jon: You know what Stannis wants?
Mance: He wants me to bend the knee. And he wants the Free Folk to fight for him. I'll give him this much, he's bold.
<snip>
Jon: ... You brought (the Free Folk clans) together to save them because none of them will survive the winter, not if they're north of the Wall. Isn't their survival more important than your pride?
Mance: Pride? Fuck my pride. This isn't about that.
Jon: Then bend the knee and save your people.
Mance: They followed me because they respected me. Because they believed in me. The moment I kneel for a southern king, that's all gone.
Jon: And how many tens of thousands are out there right now? How many women? How many children? And you won't go out and rescue them because why? You're afraid of looking afraid?
Mance: Oh, I am afraid. No shame in that. How will they do it? Beheading? Hanging?
Jon: They'll burn you alive.
Mance: Bad way to go. I'll be honest with you. I don't want to die. And burnt to death, I don't want people to remember me like that, scorched and screaming. But it's better than betraying everything I believe.
Jon: And what happens to your people? You preserve your dignity and die standing and they'll sing songs about you. You'd rather burn than kneel. The great hero. Until winter comes and the White Walkers come for us all and there's no one left to sing.
Mance: You're a good lad. Truly you are. But if you can't understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no point explaining.

It is interesting to see that Jon had a lot of valid arguments for Mance yet here he is in a similar situation and it looks like Mance ended up convincing HIM. Their last words in that exchange were:

Quote

 

Jon: I think you're making a terrible mistake.

Mance: The freedom to make my own mistakes was all I ever wanted. 

 

One thing about the Free Folk. They always like to make their own decisions.

Both Jon and Danaerys have earned the respect and loyalty of their followers. They both know that about each other now. But Llywela has zeroed in on the big difference. Dany expects that once people swear allegiance to her she will always have it. Jon, OTOH, knows he has to continue earning their respect, and if he is not true to himself  and what he (and they) believe, they will know it and will lose respect for him.

Perhaps it sunk in after his "brothers" killed him. When he and Sansa were re-united she tried to convince him to take back Winterfell from Ramsey. He said he didn't have an army and she pointed out the the Wildlings owed their lives to him. He countered with "They didn't come here to serve me."  Already sounding more and more like Mance.

The other thing Mance did was convince the various Wilding tribes to band together to fight a common enemy, but as equals. You said it, Llywela "He approaches her as a fellow ruler, an equal." He even told his supporters in the North that he couldn't send an emissary to Danearys to ask for her help: "Daenerys is a queen. Only a king can convince her to help us."

Jon seems to have added a bit more FreeFolk to the hallmark of Northern independence. He also demonstrated, in the first episode this season, that he doesn't believe in punishing offspring for the crimes of their fathers. He gave the young Karstark and Umber the opportunity for serve him rather than punish them for what their fathers did. He was asked by Danaerys to not judge her by the sins of her father, and he agreed he did not hold her responsible for the sins of her father. But, like a good Northerner, and like the FreeFolk, he claimed the right not to be bound by the vows of his for-bearers (to be free to make is own mistakes).

But Llywela pointed out, again, that Dany made the move to respond to him like an equal by asking his advice about what she should do and he responded, not by telling her what to do, but what to avoid doing and why. I think that allowed her to make her own decision but take his council as well. (and I'll bet advisors Tyrion and Davos were standing by with cheeks tear stained at how much their charges had grown - metaphorically speaking, of course.)

Now. If they all could get over this bendy knee thing.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling

[Llywela]

Dany is a really interesting character these days, because she has so many facets - her strengths and weaknesses are right there for all to see, and are often two sides of the very same coin, depending on the situation. Her absolute focus on re-creating the kingdom her father inherited is her biggest blind spot, imo, robbing her of the flexibility and adaptability that helped her conquer half of Essos. She had such lofty ideals over there, but is unable to apply those same standards to the tumultuous political situation in Westeros because she is blinded by her belief in her absolute claim to the entire kingdom, by right of the conquest of her ancestor. She flew the flag for political change in Essos, because doing so suited her ambitions, but doesn't want the same in Westeros, because she is too busy attempting to re-create what once was. I'm not sure what it is going to take to break that impasse, but I can kind of understand why she is so hell bent on making everyone she meets bend the knee - this is a girl who was raised in exile, dependent on the charity of others, who was sold as a chattal broodmare by her brother in exchange for an army, who had no choice and no control over what was done to her. She raised herself out of that condition and created herself anew as the conquering queen, and I can see where she wouldn't be willing to concede any kind of power or control to anyone ever again. Forcing everyone she meets to become her vassal is part of that - if everyone is subservient to her, then no one can have power over her. Conceding equality with a fellow ruler therefore becomes a potentially dangerous thing, the potential beginning of a slippery slope. I get that. But I do think she is going to have to learn to compromise, because the future cannot be built in the image of the distant past. Dany's ancestor conquered the whole of Westeros with fire and blood, and I have no doubt that conquest was absolute carnage - the antithesis of what Dany the Breaker of Chains is supposed to stand for. She built her reputation on freeing the oppressed - as her advisors keep pointing out to her, turning around and murdering hundreds and thousands of ordinary people would destroy all that, would turn her into just another despot willing to do anything in pursuit of power for its own sake. Her ancestors ruled Westeros by right of conquest, not right of blood (and they certainly weren't loved the way the people Dany has freed love her, or the way the Northerners love Jon), and that right of conquest ended when they were defeated by Robert. There is no going back from that. The people of Westeros must now build a new future - and that new future won't necessarily look anything like the old.

But, you know, as a Celt, I have every sympathy with the claims of the Northerners to independence, which resonate strongly with my own national history! So I admit bias there - I'd love to see a compromise reached in the form of Dany ruling the south while Jon rules the north, an alliance of equals - since both have in effect been democratically elected by the people who follow them, it would feel like a very modern and forward-thinking solution to their situation! But this is Game of Thrones, so, you know, obviously that isn't what will happen!

Having first suggested it as a joke, I'm more and more wondering if we won't in fact find out that Rhaegar legitimised his union with Lyanna somehow (despite already being married), because that would resolve the dilemma in one fell swoop by making Jon the 'rightful' Targaryen heir to the entire seven kingdoms! I started out by laughing at how he would react to that - now I'm picturing Dany's reaction!

Edited August 9, 2017 by Llywela

[gingerella]

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I only remember 1 CHoF being in attendance with Root Dude. She looked just like the one who shoved the Dragonglass shard into the Heart of the man who became the Night King.

I wonder then, if dragonglass created the Night King (did it, or was that just the first WW? Do we know for sure?), then would he be impervious to dragonglass? Meaning nothing can stop him except perhaps fire? It feels like we should be seeing more CHoF shortly, if there are any of them left now. I want to know how they came by their magical powers...and I doubt A Show will tell me before this is all over.

I've been growing tired of Dany's tirades over bending the knee, but this made me take pause:

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

this is a girl who was raised in exile, dependent on the charity of others, who was sold as a chattal broodmare by her brother in exchange for an army, who had no choice and no control over what was done to her. She raised herself out of that condition and created herself anew as the conquering queen, and I can see where she wouldn't be willing to concede any kind of power or control to anyone ever again. Forcing everyone she meets to become her vassal is part of that - if everyone is subservient to her, then no one can have power over her. Conceding equality with a fellow ruler therefore becomes a potentially dangerous thing, the potential beginning of a slippery slope.

I totally agree with you about this Llywela (BTW, great posts!), and I wonder if Dany has completely ditched the Breaker of Chains concept at this point, because she really is sounding more and more like her father, the closer she gets to Kings Landing. Think about it, the farther away she was, the more magnanimous and benevolent she was when talking about being the Breaker of Chains and Breaking the Wheel of power that has been the modus operandi of KL for eons. But the closer Dany gets, geographically and metaphorically, to KL, the more crazed she's becoming, sounding more and more like the Mad King himself. Not.A.Good.Sign.At.All.  And as Jon gets closer to having to deal with what's coming at them all from North of the Wall, the more non-Ned like he's getting, and becoming more and more the leader he never wanted to be. But his transformation is a positive one, whereas Dany's is a negative one. The one positive I can glean related to Dany right now is indeed her turning to Jon for his advice, and Jon, being a now-wiser version of himself, telling her what NOT to do, rather than what TO do. Good move Jon ol boy!

I keep mulling over the end game of A Show, and whether or not we will be left with a definitive "this is how it A Show's story ends" or if we'll be left wondering what the hell might happen because it's all left up in the air. I think most of us here at the Spitball Wall feel that business as usual is not going to happen - KL cannot continue to rule Westeros with an omnipotent ruler, as it has been for so many eons. And nobody in the South can really rule over the North, and especially not after what will be happening soon, what with the Northerners being at the front lines of what's to come, I dont see them winning against the WWs and then bending the knee to ANYone after that shit show. No way, no how. They will have saved all of Westeros if they are successful, so why would they ever go back to how things used to be when that's not in their favor? They wont do it. I dont see Dany as the end game Queen because she tends to be too much like her father at times now. I dont see Tyrion being King because it doesnt seem like something he would want anyway.  I could see Jon as sort of a defacto ruler on in as far as he appears to have the best of the Starks and the best of the Targs in him, so that might unify Westeros? But I dont really think so. Funnily enough, Little Lyanna Mormont could make a great ruler, but that would assume one person would rule all of Westeros and again, I dont see that happening. Maybe if they all survive the WWs war, they will end up sort of like the United States of Westeros, but without a singular "head of state"? Then again, many Houses are, or are close to wiped out presently.  Dorne, basically gone. Highgarden, gone. Harrenhell, gone. Casterly Rock, gone. Dragonstone, gone except present company. The Twins, gone. The Riverlands/Eeyrie/House Tully, gone if you consider inbred Robin overcooked and gone - he likely wont have an heir. Now that I write it out like that, most of the great Houses of the South are decimated or practically gone. But ironically, the great Houses of the North seem much more intact, despite the Bolton's best efforts. Starks still hold Wintefell and have the most siblings/heirs alive right now (I know I will rue writing that, wont I?!). Lady Lyanna holds Bear Island. All the lords and bannermen that elected Jon their King in the North, they are all present and accounted for, or so it would seem. When you look at it that way, the North seems to have a leg up on the South right now.

[Llywela]

17 minutes ago, gingerella said:

 When you look at it that way, the North seems to have a leg up on the South right now.

Which is kind of what makes me wonder if we won't end up seeing some kind of power sharing alliance - Jon in the north and Dany in the south. There really aren't any other candidates to rule the south as things stand. A northerner wouldn't want to. And the north isn't going to bend the knee to the south again. My sense of narrative thrust tells me that breaking up the kingdom into smaller units with an alliance between them would be the most fitting way forward - but since when has A Show ever bowed the knee to traditional narrative momentum?!

[janjan]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

My sense of narrative thrust tells me that breaking up the kingdom into smaller units with an alliance between them would be the most fitting way forward - but since when has A Show ever bowed the knee to traditional narrative momentum?!

True. It would be sort of like Sunni/Shiite/Kurdish Iraq. And we see how that worked out -- somebody always cheats. As Varys said, power, once tasted, becomes addictive. There will surely be another power grab. Maybe not in this generation, when there's so little left of it, but in the next. But by then, Our Watch has ended. Sequel?

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, janjan said:

True. It would be sort of like Sunni/Shiite/Kurdish Iraq. And we see how that worked out -- somebody always cheats. As Varys said, power, once tasted, becomes addictive. There will surely be another power grab. Maybe not in this generation, when there's so little left of it, but in the next. But by then, Our Watch has ended. Sequel?

Janjan, perhaps by then, we of the Spitball Wall Watch will be hiding in plain site, like the Children of the Forest...except with internet access and emails and stuff...

Edited August 9, 2017 by gingerella

[janjan]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

perhaps by then, we of the Spitball Wall Watch will be hiding in plain site, like the Children of the Forest...except with internet access and emails and stuff...

Hope so. I'd hate to lose my beloved brethren and sistren of the Spitball Wall! After all we've been through together. Wuv youse guys.

[Anothermi]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

I wonder then, if dragonglass created the Night King (did it, or was that just the first WW? Do we know for sure?), then would he be impervious to dragonglass? Meaning nothing can stop him except perhaps fire? It feels like we should be seeing more CHoF shortly, if there are any of them left now. I want to know how they came by their magical powers...and I doubt A Show will tell me before this is all over.

Here's a refresher on what we know about the CHoF, just for you Ging:

1 - Until the end of Season 4, Maester Luwin had told Bran that IF they existed, it was long, long ago and they don't anymore. (see near bottom for more on this scene)

2 - S04E10: The Children. We see one (looking more like a child than the one that appears in Season 6 - but was clearly supposed to be the same person because not only that CHoF but Root Dude himself were played by different actors in Season 6) assist the Bran Muffin Crew escape the attack of the Dead by throwing what looked like balls of fire at the zombonies. (we lost Jojen at that point).

[ there were no scenes with Bran, and therefor no Root Dude or CHoF in Season 5]

3 - S06E02: Home. That CHoF is seen speaking to Meera (who is upset at losing her brother and now sitting around doing nothing) to assure her she is needed. That she will have to help Bran. 

<I'm posting dialog to confirm all these bits, but will put them under spoiler tags to keep this post a bit shorter.>

Spoiler

 

CHoF: The Three-Eyed Raven says there's a war coming.

Meera: And we're going to fight it in there?

CHoF: Brandon Stark needs you.

Meera: For what? I sit in there and I watch him have his visions and nothing ever happens.

CHoF: He isn't going to stay here forever. And out there he needs you. 

 

 

4 - S06E05: The Door.  Root Dude guides Bran to observe the group of CHoF as they put a shard of dragonglass through the heart of a human tied to a Weirwood tree and watch his eyes turn blue. When they return to the root cave Bran asks that CHoF in attendance why they did that.

Spoiler

 

Bran: It was you. You made the white walkers.

ChoF: We were at war. We were being slaughtered. Our sacred trees cut down. We needed to defend ourselves.

Bran: From whom?

ChoF: From you. From men.

 

 

5 - S06E05: The Door (later) Bran seeks a vision from THE Tree without Root Dude. He finds the Army of the Dead. The Night King sees him and touches him. Back in the cave under THE Tree Root Dude tells him the Night King has marked him and can find him now. They prepare to leave in haste. Still only one CHoF present.

BUT I FORGOT THIS PART. (probably due to not wanting to relive the experience, but I did it for you, Ging, and you were right. We did see more than one CHoF)

MY APOLOGIES:

Meera feels her spidey-senses tingle and runs to the front opening of the cave. Arranged near the opening are the CHoF. More than one. I can make out about 6 of them. The Night King touches the ground and breaches the protective spell hiding the cave. The little band of CHoF stand ready to fight. We see them use ice orbs which burst into balls of fire. They light a fire circling THE Tree. The Night King and other WW walk right through it and put some of it out. The wights don't cross it, but climb up and around it and still get in.  The one CHoF we know goes inside to help Meera and Hodor. Hodor is feaking out and Bran and Root Dude are "in the field" watching Ned's father send him off to the Eyrie. Meera, THE ChoF and Summer pretty much fight off the horde of Dead on their own. Meera keeps screaming for Bran to come back as they need Hodor. Her cries penetrate his vision. Root Dude urges him to listen to her. Bran sees Hodor working in the courtyard. 

You know the rest.

I have to assume none of the small band of CHoF survived, but put up a valiant fight. We don't know if there were any others elsewhere. Perhaps only a few of them were assigned to guard the Three-Eyed-Raven (and wait with him for Bran). We don't know. But this could also, truly, be the end of the Children of the Forest.

I'm with you in wanting to know how they came to their magical powers (limited as they might be)!

------------------------------------------------------------------

Tracking all this down has taken me most of the day. And I went down a lot of rabbit holes. (shakes numb butt muttering: never again!!!)

This one is relevant, and then some, to this post. It's the dialog between Maester Luwin and Bran about magical things. It comes after a scene in S02E03: What is Dead May Never Die where we have what is now probably known as a "shooters view" perspective from Bran's direwolf roaming around Winterfell. We see it through his eyes. He follows Hodor to fetch Bran for Maester Luwin and jumps up on Bran's bed and looks Bran in the face as Bran wakes with a start and looks back at the face of his direwolf.
 

Quote

 

Bran: Every night it's the same. I'm walking and running, but I'm not I'm not me. I'm running through the godswood, sniffing the dirt, tasting blood in my mouth when I've made a fresh kill, howling. Old Nan used to tell me stories about magical people who could live inside stags, birds, wolves.

Maester Luwin: That's exactly what they are, Bran, - stories.

B: So she was lying? - They don't exist?

ML: Well, they may have done. But they're gone from the world, along with much else. These are dreams, Bran, nothing more.

B: No, my dreams are different. Mine are true. I dreamt of my father dying. And Rickon had the same dream.

ML: What about all the dreams you had that didn't come true? Hmm? Right.

ML: This link is made of Valyrian steel. (shows one link of his Maester's chain) Only one maester in 100 wears it on his chain. It signifies that I have studied the higher mysteries. And all who study these mysteries try their hand at spells. I was no different. I was young. And what boy doesn't secretly wish for hidden powers to lift him out of his dull life into a special one? But in the end, for all my efforts, I got no more out of it than a thousand boys before me.

ML: Come on.

B: All right.

ML: Maybe magic once was a mighty force in the world. But not anymore. The dragons are gone. The giants are dead. And the Children of the Forest forgotten.

 

Maester Luwin didn't forget the Children of the Forest. He brought them up even though Bran didn't list them as one of the magical people Old Nan spoke about.

Such a long time ago, that conversation. We had a great time speculating about it (back on TWoP). And now we've:

- learned that Old Nan knew a lot of things, including about wargs, but not what you called them.

- seen that even while they were speaking there were Free Folk who could warg north of the Wall.

- learned that Bran WAS warging Summer when he dreamed.

- been reminded that both Bran and Rickon could see what was happening in another place as it occurred same as Jojen did. (their father's death) It makes me miss that weird young walnut crusher again.

- been reminded that Maesters at the Citadel used to study the "higher mysteries" and received a Valyrian steel Maester badge link for undertaking it. Perhaps some of that course of study resides in the paper-mite infested scrolls that Sam's been assigned to copy?

- seen that Giants still existed. Just not in Westeros.

- seen that the CHoF may have been forgotten, but they were still protecting the allies they had to make because of being at war with them.

And of course we already knew by then that dragons had come back.  Was this the start of our speculations about magic coming back into the world? We'd been introduced to Mellisandre by this time.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Anothermi
clean up

[gingerella]

41 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Maester Luwin didn't forget the Children of the Forest. He brought them up even though Bran didn't list them as one of the magical people Old Nan spoke about.

Such a long time ago, that conversation. We had a great time speculating about it (back on TWoP). And now we've:

- learned that Old Nan knew a lot of things, including about wargs, but not what you called them.

- seen that even while they were speaking there were Free Folk who could warg north of the Wall.

- learned that Bran WAS warging Summer when he dreamed.

- been reminded that both Bran and Rickon could see what was happening in another place as it occurred same as Jojen did. (their father's death) It makes me miss that weird young walnut crusher again.

- been reminded that Maesters at the Citadel used to study the "higher mysteries" and received a Valyrian steel Maester badge link for undertaking it. Perhaps some of that course of study resides in the paper-mite infested scrolls that Sam's been assigned to copy?

- seen that Giants still existed. Just not in Westeros.

- seen that the CHoF may have been forgotten, but they were still protection the allies they had to make because of being at war with them.

And of course we already knew by then that dragons had come back.  Was this the start of our speculations about magic coming back into the world? We'd been introduced to Mellisandre by this time.

*claps slowly and with deep appreciation, and an offer of a hearty mug of grog*

Anothermi, that was a thing of beauty! With regard to the last bolded part...I'd need to head over to review the Rubik's Cube thread, but perhaps there we can see when magic started coming into A Show, because I dont think I'd have cooked that up with an element of magic unless we'd been privy to magic that season at least. Let us investigate further...*puts on junky clothes to jump into the rabbit hole*

[Llywela]

Yes, thank you for your amazing reminder of all things Children of the Forest, Anothermi!

Guys, I am not going to get to see the next episode until the very end of next week, at the earliest. I am sad. I mean, I've been managing to watch much closer to live than I expected, so I've been lucky so far, but next episode hasn't even aired yet and I'm already itching at the thought of having to not let myself read days and days worth of discussion here before I get to see it!

[WhiteStumbler]

On 8/8/2017 at 3:20 PM, gingerella said:

...and IF Tywin's snit about being unable to prove Tyrion is NOT his blood has truth to it and Tyrion is possibly half Targ...

Huh? Can you run me through your thinking here, because I am not tracking. Tywin said (on his death-toilet) "And what? You'll kill your own father in the privy? No. You're my son. Now, enough of this nonsense." How is Tyrion not Tywin's son? And what is the possible Targ connection?

I don't think that the dragons need to each have a rider. It might be a bit too Boris Vallejo for this show.

[ChocButterfly]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Huh? Can you run me through your thinking here, because I am not tracking. Tywin said (on his death-toilet) "And what? You'll kill your own father in the privy? No. You're my son. Now, enough of this nonsense." How is Tyrion not Tywin's son? And what is the possible Targ connection?

Yeah, I don't know where that might even come from. Twyin never said he didn't belived Tyrion was his son that I know of. And even if he had denied him for being a dwarf, what that has got to do with Tyrion being half Targaryan? 

[janjan]

Tywin once said, "Since I can't prove you are NOT my son, . . .  [something nasty]."

I cringed at what it must have been like for Dinklage and Dance when Tywin was berating Tyrion for being a dwarf. I hope they went out for a drink together afterward.

[WhiteStumbler]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Tywin once said, "Since I can't prove you are NOT my son, . . .  [something nasty]."

Oh it WAS nasty! Makes me realize how much I miss Charles Dance as Tywin Lannister.

Tywin: You want Casterly Rock?
Tyrion: It is mine by right.
Tywin: We'll find you accommodations more suited to your name and as a reward for your accomplishments during the battle of Blackwater Bay. And when the time is right, you will be given a position fit for your talents so that you can serve your family and protect our legacy. And if you serve faithfully, you will be rewarded with a suitable wife... and I would let myself be consumed by maggots before mocking the family name and making you heir to Casterly Rock.
Tyrion: Why?
Tywin: Why? You ask that?! You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors since I cannot prove that you are not mine. And to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him, but neither gods nor men will ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse. Go, now. Speak no more of your "rights" to Casterly Rock. Go! Oh, one more thing... the next whore I catch in your bed I'll hang.

I don't think "since I cannot prove that you are not mine" is an actual belief of Tywin's, but rather a "would that it wasn't so" - Tywin accepts it, but doesn't like it. He wishes he could prove otherwise, but knows that Tyrion is his. At least, that has been my take on their relationship.

[janjan]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I don't think "since I cannot prove that you are not mine" is an actual belief of Tywin's, but rather a "would that it wasn't so" - Tywin accepts it, but doesn't like it. He wishes he could prove otherwise, but knows that Tyrion is his. At least, that has been my take on their relationship.

O Mighty Stumbler of House Historian, I doff my hat to you and I don't even wear one. I'll get one for the occasion. Will a riding helmet be okay?

I understand Tywin's remark that way, too.

. . . weren't so [subjunctive]. OK, I'll stop. Kick me.

[Anothermi]

Well, I've done a re-watch and as I feared, the few things I caught this time have been driven from my mind by the battle.

I did note that Sansa gave a look to both Bran and Arya during their discussion of her "list" that conveyed to me a sense that she was thinking "who ARE these people? They're not the sister and brother I knew." Further, her look after Brienne and Arya stopped their sparring was more one of being disturbed (my take anyway).

As for the battle scene, I did take in some of the things WhiteStumbler highlighted back a page.

Quote

It shows what is happening, who is causing it, what the stakes are, and what is motivating Bronn to risk his life by trying to take out Drogon and Dany.

It showed that so well from start to finish. It was hard for me to watch for the artistry (I think it is fair to call it that) that created all that because I was absolutely caught up in the experience. Again.  I did see the shock wave of displaced water behind low flying Drogon but the shots of all the dying men and terrified horses and the triumph on the Dothraki faces juxtaposed with the fear and stress on Tyrion's face, the desparation on Bronn's and perhaps for the first time for Jaime, an awareness of the devastation going on around him.

He had validated the mixed feelings Dickon expressed about having to kill men he knew, but he also dismissed it by saying it wouldn't have happened if Olenna hadn't sided against Cersei. I could see that he didn't find this battle exhilarating but I'm not sure if he'd accept someone telling him "this wouldn't have happened if you hadn't sided with Cersei".

I haven't re-watched the Battle of the Bastards and probably won't re-watch this battle again because I identify with all the participants too much. It distracts a bit having the dragon, but otherwise, and I said it in my 1st post on this episode, the show runners don't shrink from showing how hellish war really is.

------------------------------------------------------------

The only other thing I can remember seeing this time, that I didn't think about last time, was that the Children of the Forest Runes on the cave wall showed a number of formations we've seen that I thought were White Walker attempts to raise the dead. From the 1st ever episode and the blue-eyed girl impaled on the tree branch (and the body part design under the snow) to the horse-part design at the Fist of the First Men.

It's got me wondering if those were remnants of the CHoF attempting to reverse the work of the WW - like they did with Benjen - and NOT the work of the WW. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Anothermi
spelling

[Anothermi]

OK, here's another thing that I didn't so much catch upon re-watch but that really bugged me instead.

Sansa told Arya that she wished Jon was here because he would be so happy to see Arya his heart would stop. Too bad there wasn't a form of communication that the Head of the Keep could use to send important information long distances... oh wait...

We know Maester Not!Luwin has ravens that can be sent because he sent them to announce Roose Bolton's death and Ramsey's ... whatever. And that would be how Jon and Sansa got Ramsey's rant pre-Battle of the Bastards.

I just don't buy that Sansa would 1) not know about the system (she's seen them delivered, she grew up knowing the system) and 2) not think informing her brother that both Bran and Arya are alive, well and at Winterfell was important enough to warrant a message.

 \\I//

 >.<

    ͡

Edited August 13, 2017 by Anothermi
I cleaned up the punctuation Ser Davos