S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Daenerys fights back. Jaime faces an unexpected situation. Arya comes home.

[walnutqueen]

Well, that was intense.

My Babalu was so damned lazy he didn't even stand up for his usual intro theme spanking (he took it laying down, like a pro), but he was practically bouncing off the walls by the end of the episode, as I was alternately screaming into my fist and half covering my eyes ...  

So many great moments during this episode, but I am still reeling from the spear that pierced the dragon, uttering the incantation of "Please don't die, Please don't die, Please don't die" as if it will speed up time until next Sunday.

I shall muster my thoughts and post again when I am semi-coherent.  :-)

[janjan]

WOW!! Best battle ever!! Randyll Tarly is a total shit after all ("flog the laggards"), and Jaime is an irredeemable shit since he killed Olenna. But Bronn! Oh Bronn, don't you get killed!! Even if you lost your sack of gold in the melee. I thought for a minute that he would go after it and forget the dragon-slayer thingie. But he didn't -- he shot the dragon!! Oh nooooo, please don't let that dragon be dead. (It wasn't Drogon, was it? Not big and dark enough. Oh no, I hope that doesn't mean it's expendable.) Come on dragon, Don't be dead!!

It's quite a battle when you don't know who to root for. (Oh all right, "whom." Now that Davos is the Grammar Nazi.)

Arya answered our "who is she now" question. She's Arya Stark of Winterfell, Faceless Assassin and Queen-Slayer. She just needed a hug from her sibs and some more training from Brienne.

Knifey!! Knifey, you're back!! And in the right hands now. So Bran must know who tried to have him killed. Will he tell us? He's become such a cold mofo he might not even bother with us. That scene with Meera was painful.

Speaking of painful, how about the look on Tyrion's face during the battle -- the sight of all those people getting burned up. He's Odysseus to Jon's Achilles -- the sly schemer, but the other half of virtu.

[DirewolfPup]

This episode was, to me, the best episode this season. One of the best of all time. Utterly breathtaking.

Firstly, let's address the Knifey! in the room. The Knifey! that began the war of five kings. Used as a weapon for Bran's attempted assassination. Baelish also brings up that it was used to cut the throat of Catalyn Stark. I don't remember us ever discussing that. This news was a shock to me. During the "scene," I can honestly say that I was not paying attention the type or style of knife used to kill Catalyn. That's some devious calculation. To have the knife that began the war to end the woman who began it. Poetic almost. Not sure how Walder Frey or Jamie for that matter knew about Knifey!. I supposed those lines were cut from the celebration dinner betwixt the two (Frey & Jamie).

Now, it seems appropriate that it should be in Arya's hands. She's the most capable to wield it. Even besting Lady Brenne. Though I'd make an argument that they were almost equal in skill. Though the skill style was vastly different. And we do get a clear as day declaration (multiple times) that Knifey! is valerian steel. May all doubt lay to rest.

Sansa did not seem thrilled to see Arya's skills. It could be the realization that Arya was a murder hobo. Or that her path involved lots of death in general. Or perhaps just the realization that of all her siblings, they have such vastly different paths and the only common love they have is for their parents, no longer each other. They've become too different. All except Jon and Sansa so far. Though Jon hasn't reunited with Bran nor Arya yet.

The Dragonstone caves were an interesting discovery. More proof in Jon's mind. I think Dany is actually starting to come around and start believing in him. The "she has a good heart" scene with Davos made me sad. I'm Jon/Sansa shipper. Jon marrying his cousin > Jon marrying his aunt. I don't see Sansa happy with any other match. Our lady of perpetual punching bag deserves a good, loving husband.

(Side note: Jorah is still on the road back to Dany. I'd expect to see him next episode)

That battle... whoa. I teared up seeing Dracarys light up the line of Lannister men (Ed Sheeran wasn't in attendance, alas). It was glorious in the aspect of cinematic grandeur. So much strength. So much destruction. It literally had me shaking.

We got Bronn the Brave in action. It's clear his loyalty is to his friend, and no longer the money. Though the money helps. Randall Tarley confirmed that all of the gold was safely behind the gates of King's Landing. Cersei can pay off their debts now. Drat! Team Dany was moments too late.

I didn't see the demise of Randall Tarley, so I'd presume he's still with us. We saw Dickon, Jamie, and Bronn survive. It was Bronn who pushed Jamie into the water, yes? I didn't get a clear look. I could see either Bronn or Dickon doing that. We also got to see that Tyrion still has a lot of love for his brother. I never doubted that he did, but it brings to the forefront how much conflict Tyrion is in. Perhaps, he shouldn't lead battle plans after all. Another reason Jorah needs to book it to Dragonstone post haste.

[Pallas]

Wow. What an episode. The battle was extraordinary, incredibly filmed and directed so that the tension kept increasing and I kept leaning forward into it, despite my certainty that (1) A Show would continue to be, in the words of janjan, a dick to horses (or is that Dickon?), and (2) that surely, no major character would die in this battle because (a) too early, and (b) none would come face-to-face. And I was right about the wrong part. 

That is, major characters did come to face-to-face-to-fang on the battlefield, and but for Bronn, Jaime would be dead. I loved how we saw Bron spy the white horse he rode to save Jaime, just before the "fucking idiot" set off to try to slay another monarch. I'm guessing that Tyrion will pay his debt and see that Jaime (with Bron) is rescued from the Pond o' Good Fortune, which opens a prospect I never saw coming: Jaime captured by Dany's forces and so, reunited with Tyrion that way. With time to revisit everything. What possibilities. 

Knifey stabs its way right off the Milk Carton. And in the Previouslies! -- I thought this might be Knifey's backstory episode. No, but it was better: better to see Bran impale Littlefinger with the phrase, "Chaos is a ladder."  And of course, Lord Baelish quits romancing that sibling, only to seek out something more to his taste, anyway: stirring up new sibling rivalry between the sisters he first met -- and saw sniping -- at Robert's tournament. Pry Brienne from Sansa's side, by fanning Sansa's alarm at what her sister has become, and how Arya and Brienne are bound by likeness as well as by Brienne's vow to Cat.

Arya at the gates, once again nearly being turned away by disbelieving guards, as she once was back at the Red Keep. Sansa's knowing where she went, and their greeting: "Do I have to call you Lady Stark now."  "Yes."  

Jon and Dany in the cave, alone with the Children of the Forest and the First Men and the Night King, and the cut from Dany's question about pride. I'm thinking Jon gave her a better answer than Mance gave to Stannis -- and that Dany is not Stannis, either. It was after whatever answer Jon gave, that Dany sought Jon's opinion about her next move. His reply was glorious. 

That battle. I'll be seeing dragons in my dreams.

[DirewolfPup]

4 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Knifey stabs its way right off the Milk Carton. And in the Previouslies! -- I thought this might be Knifey's backstory episode. No, but it was better: better to see Bran impale Littlefinger with the phrase, "Chaos is a ladder."  And of course, Lord Baelish quits romancing that sibling, only to seek out something more to his taste, anyway: stirring up new sibling rivalry between the sisters he first met -- and saw sniping -- at Robert's tournament. Pry Brienne from Sansa's side, by fanning Sansa's alarm at what her sister has become, and how Arya and Brienne are bound by likeness as well as by Brienne's vow to Cat.

This is a good spitball. Or at least a way forward for Baelish that I couldn't initially see in the episode. Make Sansa's allies slowly leave her. Make her feel alone, like she needs the support of anyone she can. Oh, look... there's LF. He's always had your back... <shudder>

[janjan]

14 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

he took it laying down,

Lying down.
Love, Ser Davos  :-)

[Pallas]

6 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Baelish also brings up that it was used to cut the throat of Catalyn Stark. I don't remember us ever discussing that. This news was a shock to me. During the "scene," I can honestly say that I was not paying attention the type or style of knife used to kill Catalyn.

Wonderful post, Pup, and just wanted to let Knifey off the hook for this one: the knife that killed Cat has a short, simple blade, no more imposing than a good kitchen knife. Baelish segued from "this is the knife that almost killed you" to, "Now, the knife that killed your mother -- I'd have stopped that with my heart, if I could have."  For all the good his heart would have done, or ever did.

[DirewolfPup]

1 minute ago, Pallas said:

Wonderful post, Pup, and just wanted to let Knifey off the hook for this one: the knife that killed Cat has a short, simple blade, no more imposing than a good kitchen knife. Baelish segued from "this is the knife that almost killed you" to, "Now, the knife that killed your mother -- I'd have stopped that with my heart, if I could have."  For all the good his heart would have done, or ever did.

Huh? So is he lying or is this some show discrepancy?  A third option would be that since Knifey! and Cat started the war, the fact that she died because of the war is sort of a poetic re-telling. With that logic everyone who has died at the hand of the battle of five kings is due to Knifey! (Ned, Cat, Robb, Joffrey, Stannis, Renly, Mycella, Tommen, Oberyn :*(, Maeragry, Olenna, ah... the list goes on forever)

[walnutqueen]

2 minutes ago, janjan said:

Lying down.
Love, Ser Davos  :-)

Thanks, Ser Davos.  This laggard needed a good flogging to be brought back to her Sansas.

"Lay, lady, lay ..."  ruined me in more ways than one.

 

6 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Baelish segued from "this is the knife that almost killed you" to, "Now, the knife that killed your mother -- I'd have stopped that with my heart, if I could have."  For all the good his heart would have done, or ever did.

That was one of the only believable things I've ever heard from creepy Littlefinger, except his admission to wanting power.

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

So is he lying or is this some show discrepancy? 

He was speaking of a different knife: "The other dagger, that killed your mother" -- a typically Baelish segue from one painful topic to a worse one.  And I loved Bran's letting him hang himself by asking, of Knifey, "Whose knife was it?" This time, Baelish said, "No one knows." Except that it was his telling Cat and Ned that Knifey was Tyrion's, that inspired Cat to arrest Tyrion. As the Three-Eyed Raven well knows. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by Pallas
Re-watched and fixed Baelish quote: he does say "other dagger"

[janjan]

2 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Huh? So is he lying or is this some show discrepancy?

I also heard a beat between LF's saying this is the knife that tried to kill you and his reference to [another] knife that killed Cat. The latter was wielded by one of those Frey sons, a slimeball who could never get hold of such a one as Knifey! LF was trying to ingratiate himself with Bran by professing devotion to his mother, but Bran really stuck it to him.

4 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

"Lay, lady, lay ..."  ruined me in more ways than one.

Ah, but our Bobby Zimmerman was punning with that one.

[walnutqueen]

7 minutes ago, janjan said:

Ah, but our Bobby Zimmerman was punning with that one.

Still got me into a Dothraki-lookalike's bed and was instrumental in a heavy petting session with a Bobby Zimmerman clone.  ;-)

[DirewolfPup]

Random final thought for the night. Jamie's missing hand isn't at the forefront of my thoughts very often, but it was mentioned during the battle. Davos is missing the tips of his fingers on one hand, yet he's still very skilled on the battlefield (Battle of the Bastards in particular). Since I'm assuming that Jamie is alive and a captive of Team Dany, I'm hoping for a scene between those two.  Tyrion gets to see Jamie and Bronn again. Next week should be interesting.

[janjan]

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

Random final thought for the night. . . .

You mean you can sleep after what we've just seen?!

[gingerella]

Whew! I need a cigarette after that episode...and I don't even smoke...

Great posts all around and it's late more at the 'morrow, but for now, in no particular order:

• Please, please, please don't let that dragon be hurt!
•  
• Please don't let Sansa be taken in yet again by LF! Enough is enough already! Besides, now that Bran is back as the Three Eyed Raven (TER) and is wise to LF's games, shouldn't he be able to talk sense to Sansa? I mean, wouldn't the TER want to steer folks to do what needs doing, like helping Sansa to see who is evil...and yet...because Bran IS the TER now, and technically he knows everything that ever was and will be, maybe he is unable to alter the future. Hmmmmm, maaaaybe, his only purpose is to act as a psychic 'advance recon' by telling Jon et al where the Night King and his army are at any given point in time. I wonder if that's his entire role, or if he can do any magic. I cannot remember, Root Dude did not really do magic per se, or did he? Was it the Children of the Forest who did the magic spells? 
•  
• Speaking of...are there any Children of the Forest still alive or did they all perish with Root Dude?
•  
• I felt like when Jamie and Bron went down, down, down into that water, and the scene faded to black, that maybe we just saw Jamie and Bron's characters fade to black as well. I know you guys are thinking they get rescued and become prisoners of Danny's but could they just simply be dead now?  I mean, with all that heavy war armor on, one would sink like a stone, right? 

Edited August 7, 2017 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Ai-yi-yi-yi-yi!

So.Much.Action.

- I can see why all the Kingdoms of Westeros "bent the knee" the first time the Targs used Dragons. So much horror. War IS hell.

- Glad the show managed to get the little convo between Jaime, Bronn & Dickon (Lol at Bronn's snicker at that name). Jaime truly doesn't shrink from battles, but he doesn't glorify them either. Bronn razzed the battle newbie, but Jaime spoke truth to Dickon and validated his feelings about killing former friends. War is Hell.

- Feeling so good that my who's-got-knifey spitball from the Valyrian Steel knives post last ep (Balish) landed squared on the nose! That so rarely happens. Now Arya DOES have a Valyrian Steel "dagger" ... with Dragonglass handle. She's set to take on the Night King... or any random WW.

- The story at Winterfell is threatening to become a Greek Tragedy. Bran is an inscrutable oracle that nobody understands and perhaps will begin to be feared, or loathed... but not listened to. The siblings, now together, (at least Sansa & Arya) start re-acting like they did in Season 1 (always happens when you go home for family reunions). Sansa see Arya upstaging her leadership and hard-earned respect  (just like she did with Bran's archery lesson). Always the show off. Always grabbing the attention. Of course LF sees an opportunity.

- Bran's farewell to Meera was so telling. He was still Bran when Benjen left them at the Weirwood Tree just north of the Wall. But he started in earnest, right there at that tree, to learn everything that it was his destiny to learn. He spoke of having a memory of who he was at that point (as Bran), but all the other memories he's taken in have pushed his personality into a corner. If he didn't have the title of Three-Eyed-Raven, we could rightfully call HIM No-One. Unfortunately, that makes him difficult to relate to.

- So, Dany decided to heed Olenna's advice. Don't listen to the men. Do what you think is right.

- Glad the dragon (I think it had to be Drogon as they all look pale now) was not too injured to destroy that drangon-be-gone weapon.

- also, it was good to see Dany in her element. Now I can't wait 'til the story progresses to the point where Arya gets to ride one by her side against the Army of the Dead. It's what we've wanted since the beginning isn't it?

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

better to see Bran impale Littlefinger with the phrase, "Chaos is a ladder."

Thank you for clarifying that, Pallas. My sound was bad and I couldn't make out what he said.

ETA: I, too, thought "this show is dick to horses" when they showed Bronn's horse's leg amputation by the Dothraki warrior.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Anothermi
thought re: horses.

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Whew! I need a cigarette after that episode...and I don't even smoke...

Not to worry, I smoke enough for all the Unsullied, and then some.

 

24 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Bran's farewell to Meera was so telling. He was still Bran when Benjen left them at the Weirwood Tree just north of the Wall. But he started in earnest, right there at that tree, to learn everything that it was his destiny to learn. He spoke of having a memory of who he was at that point (as Bran), but all the other memories he's taken in have pushed his personality into a corner. If he didn't have the title of Three-Eyed-Raven, we could rightfully call HIM No-One. Unfortunately, that makes him difficult to relate to.

He is so connected with the futureworld, but so disconnected with the past, and his past self.  Ever so evident in his reunions with his siblings -  they rejoice and embrace him lovingly; he gazes past them impassively.

[ChocButterfly]

Wow! That was great! I'm glad Dany decided to finally ride her dragon. I mean, really, what do the others want her to do? Seat in Dragonstone while ALL her armies are bieng decimated? I wonder though, where were the other 2 dragons. She cannot ride them all at the same time, but surely the others can follow her and break havoc as well. She used to use them before and she didn't ride them. I was very surprised that the one who got hit was Drogon. I was sure it was going to be one of the others. I hope he's fine. At least he got the weapon destroyed. I hope Qyburn doesn't have the time to build another one.

By the way, I was very sure who I was rooting for. I wanted the entire Lannister and Tarly army to be roasted. I hate those fucking Lannisters! Yeah, I knnow, it's not the soldiers' fault, but their army needs to be eliminated. I was hoping Jaimie would burn too. But at least lets' hope he gets caught again as a prisoner. Bronn surprised me, he was more loyal than I expexted. I thought he would run away.

Does anyone think Dany was SUPER stupid burning all that grain?? I thought for sure she was going to kill all the soldiers but be careful not to burn the food!!! She will need it after  all. Idiot, now how will she feed her people in the middle of Winter???

Why is it that no one believes Arya when she claims who she is? The soldiers actually believed Bran and Meera, and they looked awfully a lot worse! They looked like beggars. Yet, here comes Arya with seemingly ok clothes and they wouldn't even tell Sansa. I was so sure Arya would go back to KL, I'm so glad she didn't!!! I wonder why was Sansa looking at her worryingly when she saw her fighting. I thought she'd be happily surprised.

And of course, there's Bran. What a fucking jerk! I'm sorry, but being able to see all doesn't turn you into a cold hearted asshole. Because of everything he has seen he should be specially grateful to Meera. I don't buy that because he's seen so many things he's incapable of feeling. Even if he really has no feelings, he's still able to understand that he'd be nowhere without her help and that he owes her A LOT. He could at least fake a nice speech for he,r thanking her all she did, wishing her well, and promising her brother's death wasn't in vain.

Besides, what is the point of seeing it all if you're doing NOTHING with that information?? He hasn't even warned Sansa about Littlefinger, he hasn't warned Jon about anything that would help him, he hasn' even tell anyone about when exactly will the Dead strike. Shouldn't he be laying out plans with Sansa, sharing useful important information? And can anyone tell me anything, anything helpful that Bran has actually done?? So far, he has only gotten killed that weird Elf looking kid, Hodor, Summer, Root Guy and probably whatever remained of the Childrent of the Forest. Oh, and let's not forget that probably thanks to him the Night King and the WW will be able to pass the Wall. Thanks Bran!!!

Right now, the only way his plot would be useful at all is if he single handledy ends the war with the Dead or at least kills the Night King himself. But I'm sure that's not going to happen. I'm sure his whole role will be of warning the Dead are coming. Duh, we know! Plus, he'll tell Jon about him being Reaghar's son. But, so what? That's not usefull info, because, there's no proof, why would anyone believe it? And second, who cares? Jon is still a bastard, so he's no heir at all.

[janjan]

2 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Does anyone think Dany was SUPER stupid burning all that grain?? I thought for sure she was going to kill all the soldiers but be careful not to burn the food!!! She will need it after  all. Idiot, now how will she feed her people in the middle of Winter???

This! Especially after A Show made such a point of Sansa storing up grain. OTOH, maybe the plan is to starve Cersei out. But, as you say, then what?

2 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

And of course, there's Bran. What a fucking jerk! I'm sorry, but being able to see all doesn't turn you into a cold hearted asshole

Choc the Bran-slayer! But let me demur. Maybe it was the touch of the WW, kicking in after an incubation period. Root Dude did warn him about that. As for his usefulness, you're right, but he did say he just sees fragments now, and has to work on seeing the big picture. Maybe he will be more helpful after he spends more time under the weirwood tree.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The story at Winterfell is threatening to become a Greek Tragedy.

GoT is already a Greek tragedy, or epic poem actually. Wily Odysseus and Brooding Achilles show the two sides of virtu in a brutal war that grew out of an alleged kidnapping. Did Paris really kidnap Helen, or did she love him as Lyanna loved Rhaegar? It's Robert's Rebellion that sowed the kindling of enmities, and Cat's tragic mistake that lit the match. After she listened to Eris/LF, the Sower of Discord. And all those people were horribly slaughtered, yea unto the seventh generation. The Gods are playing with us.

Oh wait. Odysseus made it out alive, but Achilles did not. Oh nooooooooo!

ETA, when Tyrion said, "Flee, you idiot," I thought he meant Dany.

Edited August 7, 2017 by janjan

[walnutqueen]

27 minutes ago, janjan said:

OTOH, maybe the plan is to starve Cersei out. But, as you say, then what?

She'll be one skinny hangry bitch who still won't fuck off and DIE?

I have high hopes for Knifey, but Life has dashed my hopes so far, so I'll just let A Show dick me around some more.

Speaking of A Show - it could be called "They Kill Horses, Don't They".

(I know, Ser Davos - it's "Shoot".)

[WhiteStumbler]

My take on Bran is that he is totally incapable of human reactions right now. When you can look at a person and know the course of their life it might be hard to see them as a person, and not a series of interconnected events. I do wish he would appear to be trying to drop some useful knowledge on these folks, but maybe he is still trying to sort out the fragments of the mosaic so that he can see the pattern.

Loved the previous comments regarding how much Davos learned from Stannis of House Grammarian, and the parallels between Dany's efforts to get Jon to bend the knee and Jon's efforts to convince Mance to do the same to Stannis.

Jon: You know what Stannis wants?
Mance: He wants me to bend the knee. And he wants the Free Folk to fight for him. I'll give him this much, he's bold.
<snip>
Jon: ... You brought (the Free Folk clans) together to save them because none of them will survive the winter, not if they're north of the Wall. Isn't their survival more important than your pride?
Mance: Pride? Fuck my pride. This isn't about that.
Jon: Then bend the knee and save your people.
Mance: They followed me because they respected me. Because they believed in me. The moment I kneel for a southern king, that's all gone.
Jon: And how many tens of thousands are out there right now? How many women? How many children? And you won't go out and rescue them because why? You're afraid of looking afraid?
Mance: Oh, I am afraid. No shame in that. How will they do it? Beheading? Hanging?
Jon: They'll burn you alive.
Mance: Bad way to go. I'll be honest with you. I don't want to die. And burnt to death, I don't want people to remember me like that, scorched and screaming. But it's better than betraying everything I believe.
Jon: And what happens to your people? You preserve your dignity and die standing and they'll sing songs about you. You'd rather burn than kneel. The great hero. Until winter comes and the White Walkers come for us all and there's no one left to sing.
Mance: You're a good lad. Truly you are. But if you can't understand why I won't enlist my people in a foreigner's war, there's no point explaining.

Here is Littlefinger giving Knifey! to Brann...

Littlefinger: This is for you. The last man who wielded it meant to cut your throat, but your mother fought him off. The other dagger, the one that took her life, I would have stopped that dagger with my own heart (HA! As if LF even HAS a heart!) if I could have. I wasn't there for her when she needed me most. But I am here for her now to do what she would have done, to protect her children. Anything I can do for you, Brandon, you need only ask.

So the name of the contraption that Qyburn made is a "scorpion"? Sounds very Dornish. I think Drogon is just injured, it looks like he took a spear to the R-shoulder. Unlikely to be fatal... unless Qyburn coated it with poison.

And now I just made myself ill.

Fav Quotes:

Arya: Jon left you in charge?
Sansa: He did. I hope he comes back soon. I remember how happy he was to see me. When he sees you, his heart will probably stop.
Me: Again...

Arya: Do I have to call you Lady Stark now?
Sansa: Yes.

Bronn: Men shit themselves when they die. Didn't they teach you that at fancy lad school?

Davos:  (to Missandei) King Snow, isn't it? No, that doesn't sound right. King Jon?

Brienne: Who taught you how to do that?
Arya: No one.

Loved Tyrion trying to will his estranged brother to "flee, you idiot, you idiot. You fucking idiot".

Edited August 7, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[walnutqueen]

^^^ A deep curtsy (or bow, I'm flexible that way) for you and your most excellent post, WS.  Special thanks for the Mance quote - Jon Snow really does have a short memory (much like my own, it would seem).

Another of my favorite moments from this episode was Missandei's almost imperceptible smile when being teasingly questioned by Dany about GreyWorm - thankfully interrupted so we can use our (sometimes vivid) imaginations ...

[janjan]

Stumbler is Archmaester of the Citadel -- the Keep of the Flame, preserver of all knowledge, without which we would be like dogs, with no memory except the last meal and no foresight except  the next one. I'm sure I got that quote wrong. I'm not our Stumbler of House Historian.

But I still think Tyrion was telling Dany to flee. She was intent on pulling that shaft out of the dragon (fat chance) while Jaime was bearing down on her. Good thing dragon fuel is inexhaustible.

36 minutes ago, walnutqueen said:

Missandei's almost imperceptible smile when being teasingly questioned by Dany about GreyWorm - thankfully interrupted so we can use our (sometimes vivid) imaginations ...

The last split second of the sex scene left nothing to the imagination. This is HBO.

Edited August 7, 2017 by janjan

[Pallas]

Quote

But I still think Tyrion was telling Dany to flee.

I think Tyrion's "fucking, fucking idiot" was Jaime. Tyrion continues to have a healthy respect for the dragons as sons and incendiaries. He has seen Drogon injured and with his mother imperiled in battle before, and how he punished their attackers. As Tyrion spoke, both times, the shot cut to Jaime on his horse, showing us whom Tyrion was addressing. Dany's fleeing on foot would get her nowhere, as Jaime bore down on her, while Jaime's fleeing on horseback -- just as Bronn had also urged him, earlier -- had some chance of success. 

Most of all, even under his breath, Tyrion is as unlikely to call out his revered Queen as a "fucking idiot" as he is likely to say exactly that to his older brother. Especially with the escalating "fucking"s as the Kingslayer drew closer to being burned alive by the Mad King's daughter.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Pallas
The Words of House Grammarian: "He = Who; Him = Whom."

[janjan]

3 minutes ago, Pallas said:

showing us who Tyrion was addressing

Whom, dammit!

I'm still trying to expunge my shame from when you caught me dangling a participle, like that Dothraki guy's head from his horse's saddlebag. :-)

And Shimpy, bless her, piled on. Where is our Shimpy anyway? I hope she's still with us, following us quietly from above like an angelic wraith, wafting silent in the shadows. Hi, Shimp!

[gingerella]

I'm with Janjan, I too thought Tyrion was willing Dany to flee and not just stand there whilst Jamie galloped towards her with spear aimed squarely at her being. ETA: After reading Pallas' last post I can see we are wrong Janjan...Pallas is correct, Tyrion would not call Dany "you fucking idiot" outloud, but it certainly would be something he'd say to his brother, Jamie. I stand corrected, thank you Pallas, of House Davos of Sense & Sensibility.

White Stumbler of House Historian, I bend the knee to your historical manuscripts, for which we, of the Spitball Wall, are eternally grateful for, as always...

Choc, regarding Bran, Knower of Stuff Unshared, I've been thinking along similar lines, but then I thought, wait, what if the TER is unable to intervene and only KNOWS what is to come, but cannot UNDO anything in the future? Or...what if Root Dude could not, or would not undo the future so as not to redirect what he felt was a preordained path, but at some point Bran must make the decision to follow impassively in Root Dude's footsteps by NOT intervening, OR, he has to decide to deviate from the course and indeed intervene in the future by doing something Root Dude would not have done. By god I've made myself dizzy typing that out just now, I hope it makes sense!

Re: The Great Valerian Steel Round-Up of 2017:

• Arya / Knifey!
• Jon / Mormont family sword
• Sam / Tarly Family sword
• Brienne / part of Ned's Oathkeeper, re-forged
• Jamie / the other part of Ned's Oathkeeper, re-forged

Who else has Valerian steel? One would think Dany would, but does she? Did Viserys have a Valerian steel sword that she took over? I cant remember. What I see when I look at that list, is that Arya, Jon, Sam and Brienne - and Dany if she has Valerian steel - are all squarely on the same side now. Jamie is the only odd man out and IF he survives, and Dany's team takes his sword, then they have All Valerian Team Revival. PLUS the dragon glass puts them over the top in terms of being as prepared as they could be for the Army of the Dead's arrival. Meanwhile, down is KL, nobody is doing fuck all to prepare for Winter, and methinks Cersei will be caught with her pants down shortly. She is completely unaware of, or uninformed about the Army of the Dead and seems only intent on conquering the Seven Kingdoms at all cost, but nobody down there seems to know a whit about WWs et al.

And speaking of that, I noticed again - and I mentioned this last season IIRC - in the opening credits, when they pull back/away from The Wall, you can see both sides of the Wall clearly. Is Hardhome on the East/left side, or on the West/right side? I thought Hardhome was on the left side and if so, it looks as though one could easily walk around the side of the Wall on that end if you went along the shoreline. But on the right/east side, it looks more like you'd have to go into the water to get around the Wall...The Army of the Dead didn't get their Guppy swimming lessons at Dead Camp, did they? I dont think so as they didn't seem to follow any of Jon's men into the water as they left Hardhome, but we all know my memory is shit at this point in A Show's run.

Oh yeah, and about Sansa's look as she saw Arya fight Brienne. I did not get a jealous vibe from her at all. What I got was she was realizing that Arya wasn't kidding at all about having a list of people she was going to kill and that she likely DID indeed kill just about everyone on her list already. That's what I took that to be. The ensuing smirk on LF's face once she walked away, I took that as him scheming but I wasn't sure in what way. Probably to sow seeds of doubt in Sansa's mind about Arya having changed and being dangerous...though Brienne could counter that with Sansa, I'm sure. I did FUCKING LOVE when Bran said, "Chaos is a ladder..." Wiped the smirk right off LF's mug, and I've never seen that happen quite so quickly before in this entire series. That? Was a thing of beauty. But it also sounded the blast of the horn for Bran's safety because although LF couldn't be certain Bran is on to him, he clearly was thinking, "how the fuck did this little twat know I've said that before..." look on his face. It makes me afraid for Bran.

ETA: I was wondering if that giant spear machine was Qyburn's toy...it was! So it's toast now. I too, hope it's not easy to make a new one.

Edited August 7, 2017 by gingerella

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

The last split second of the sex scene left nothing to the imagination. This is HBO.

Alas, my memories of sex (split second or otherwise) does not fail in my old age - but I was referring to the even more titillating girlfriend-bonding talk between Dany and Missandei - that's what I was imagining.  (Get outta here, you Dirty Bird!).  :-D

Perhaps I was projecting, since that every evening, I'd had a "talk" with my BFF about A Man with a damaged peen.

 

3 minutes ago, janjan said:

Whom, dammit!

I'm still trying to expunge my shame from when you caught me dangling a participle, like that Dothraki guy's head from his horse's saddlebag. :-)

And Shimpy, bless her, piled on. Where is our Shimpy anyway? I hope she's still with us, following us quietly from above like an angelic wraith, wafting silent in the shadows. Hi, Shimp!

True to her name, Shrimpy's Still.

 

I'm needing a rewatch for many nuances, but that look on Sansa's face?  My impulse was to assume Sansa suddenly realized her little sister was as big (if not bigger) a badass as she ever hoped to be, and this gave her some pause, because she is not immune to the siren song of POWER.  Will her sister (and step-bro) become adversaries after their alliance defeats the enemy?  Sansa has seen the Game up close & personal, and may well have some reservations about fealty and family.

[WhiteStumbler]

49 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Who else has Valerian steel? One would think Dany would, but does she? Did Viserys have a Valerian steel sword that she took over? I cant remember.

I don't think we have seen Dany with any weapon, Valyrian steel or otherwise, but your comment brought this to mind...

(At Harrenhall)

Arya: It wasn't just Aegon riding his dragon. It was Rhaenys and Visenya, too.
Tywin: Correct. A student of history, are you?
Arya: Rhaenys rode Meraxes. Visenya rode Vhagar.
Tywin: I'm sure I knew that when I was a boy.
Arya: Visenya Targaryen was a great warrior. She had a Valyrian steel sword she called Dark Sister.

The things won't shatter like normal steel swords, so it is possible that the ancestral Valyrian steel sword of House Targaryen is still out there somewhere.

ETA: Re-watched the scene where Viserys gets his "crown for a king", and he has a sword that sort of looks like a scimitar, but I don't recall ever seeing it again.

Edited August 7, 2017 by WhiteStumbler

[ChocButterfly]

48 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Choc, regarding Bran, Knower of Stuff Unshared, I've been thinking along similar lines, but then I thought, wait, what if the TER is unable to intervene and only KNOWS what is to come, but cannot UNDO anything in the future? Or...what if Root Dude could not, or would not undo the future so as not to redirect what he felt was a preordained path, but at some point Bran must make the decision to follow impassively in Root Dude's footsteps by NOT intervening, OR, he has to decide to deviate from the course and indeed intervene in the future by doing something Root Dude would not have done.

If that's true, then what good is that power for if cannot do anything with it? doesn't make sense. Plus, I'm still not sure Bran can see the future. He can see the past and present that is, but I haven't seen him actually seeing the future. 

Meh, I still think kid is useless. But at least he used to be nice, now he's a useless jerk. I'd say Meera should dump him at the Wall and see how far his Three Eyed Raven power can take him.

[gingerella]

Choc, perhaps he knew he had to be stoic and appear uncaring in order for Meera to shove off back to her family? Perhaps he knew if she felt he needed her at all, she would not fulfill her destiny and be where she is now needed? I know, he's a shithead, but I'm trying to give the kid credit since he's saddled now with a huge burden that he doesn't know how to use yet....and dammit to hell, Winter isn't Coming, Winter is Here!

Edited August 7, 2017 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

3 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

If that's true, then what good is that power for if cannot do anything with it? doesn't make sense. Plus, I'm still not sure Bran can see the future. He can see the past and present that is, but I haven't seen him actually seeing the future. 

Love that you are so firm in your judgements of characters on this show! Makes us think.

I agree that we haven't seen him actually see the future. We know that Jojen said HE could see the future. I can't remember if Root Dude made that claim. During that Long-Trek time (Seasons 3 & 4), where we last saw Bran and the Muffin Crew for any length of time, we learned that Bran was The One. He could warg his wolf (1st skill) and later he could warg a human (Hodor) but he didn't show us any other skills. I think Jojen TOLD him he had the ability to see the past and the future as well as things that are occurring right at the moment. Oh, and Jojen was another person who showed little emotion and who didn't communicate well. (I remember many of us, for the longest time, thought he was out to do Bran harm.) Root Dude was like that too, come to think of it. I think it's comes with the "gift". 

I don't think much stock can be put in seeing the future because, as we saw after Bran was touched by the Night King, the future can change. Root Dude started training Bran believing that he had more time than they ended up having. Bran's actions changed that. Perhaps his ability to see what is happening right now, but far away, will be the most useful to the battle against the WW horde.

Still, one would think that the combination of knowing the past, seeing what others are doing in the present and being able to warg can't help but come in handy during a crisis? He's got to have a purpose.

[janjan]

12 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

... the combination of knowing the past, seeing what others are doing in the present and being able to warg can't help but come in handy during a crisis?

Ya think?

[gingerella]

All this discussion about Bran's "gifts" has me doing an inventory about the Stark Kids in general...Let's call it The Great Magical Gifts Inventory of 2017:

1. Bran: We know he is The Three-Eyed Raven, and we know that he has the gifts of both warging into both animals and humans (Summer & Hodor), and that he is a seer, though it's not clear if he is seeing the future yet, or only the past/present.

2. Jon: Clearly is able to rise from the dead, so has gifts possibly from the Lord of Light (similar to Dondarion's gifts of multiple resurrections). Didn't Jon warg into his wolf once, or was that our collective wishful thinking?

3. Arya: She has learned the magical ways of the Faceless Man and can change appearances to suit her motives.

4. Sansa: To date, no gifts that we are aware of, unless I am forgetting something.

5. Rickon, RIP: IIRC, Rickon seemed to have some weird senses where he would always be down loitering/sleeping in the crypts when the TER flew down there, but did he warg too? I dont think he did but I'm not sure.

6. Robb, RIP: Robb's only gift was seeming to do the wrong thing at the wrong time, I think that was his Ned's eldest son plague, but certainly not any magical gifts, though his bride might say otherwise...

So if I'm remembering correctly, out of the remaining Stark children - or children with Stark blood - Bran, Jon & Arya all seem to possess some sort of magical powers at this point in time. Sansa seems to be the only one devoid of any magical powers, though perhaps she will learn some in the future...and out of the two deceased Stark children, Rickon has some sort of sixth sense, but Robb did not. I'd say 4 out of 6 Stark kids having some sort of magical abilities is rather strange, no? I mean, what are the chances? We've not see that in any of the other major Houses.

Also, related to the remaining Houses, it seems like House Stark is doing fairly well in terms of numbers, compared to other Houses.

Also...I am feeling a spitball so I need to lugey it up onto the Wall, so here goes: I think that Sam's brother, Dickon, isn't a dick like Randall Tarley is, and in the end, wouldn't it be cool if Dickon - by way of his bravery and humility (as shown in him admitting war and killing are difficult), and Sam - by way of his book smarts and info gathered at The Citadel - both come together to fight along side each other, and Sam is able to take his rightful place at the Tarley table with Dickon, hopefully after Randall is dispatched by a dragon, a WW,  a zomboni, or any errant arrow? That would be nice, though nice is not what A Show is, though A Viewer can dream...

Discuss...

Edited August 8, 2017 by gingerella

[janjan]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Rickon, RIP: IIRC, Rickon seemed to have some weird senses where he would always be down loitering/sleeping in the crypts when the TER flew down there, but did he warg too? I dont think he did but I'm not sure.

Rickon had second sight of some kind. When Bran assured him their parents would be back, he said "No, they won't." He also had a way with walnuts.

 

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Also...I am feeling a spitball so I need to lugey it up onto the Wall, so here goes: I think that Sam's brother, Dickon, isn't a dick like Randall Tarley is, and in the end, wouldn't it be cool if Dickon - by way of his bravery and humility (as shown in him admitting war and killing are difficult), and Sam - by way of his book smarts and info gathered at The Citadel - both come together to fight along side each other, and Sam is able to take his rightful place at the Tarley table with Dickon, hopefully after Randall is dispatched by a dragon, a WW,  a zomboni, or any errant arrow? That would be nice, though nice is not what A Show is, though A Viewer can dream...

Discuss...

OK. You're right about Dickon and Sam. A Viewer can hope. But your dreams for Randyll's demise are too mild. Too fast, that is. Something slower would be better for such a dick. The Long Farewell maybe. But who would kiss him? Ick.

[ChocButterfly]

Quote

Love that you are so firm in your judgements of characters on this show! Makes us think.

I can't help it. Is the same for me with Jamie, everyone thinks he's such a good guy, but I've always disliked him and don't think he has redeem himself at all. He has been on my shit list since season 1, episode 1. However, with Sansa, I thought most people were incredibly hard on her, and I can always see where she's coming from. I have a soft spot for her.

I used to love Bran, he was so sensitive and so mature! And in spite of how boring his plot was, I waited patiently for a big reward afterwards. But now, not only did they kill his personality and turned him into this soulless oracle, this whole TER  thing is not even useful!!! Ok, so he's supposed to be the "key" to this war with the Dead, I just have no patience to wait for him to do something worth it until the last season. Let's hope he proves me wrong and finally start fixing some shit. Plus, I insist, being able to see so many things shouldn't kill all your empathy, on the contrary, you'd think he'd develop more of it.

On another topic, I thought they showed Papa Tarly burning at the battle, no??

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

I thought they showed Papa Tarly burning at the battle, no??

Did he?!? I have to be honest Choc, I watched that entire scene through my hands so I know I missed a lot, I do know that Jamie and I think Bronn (though it could have been Dickon) dove into the water just as Drogon flambeed them, and it's not clear if they drowned or will be captured...But hey, if Pa Tarly burned, that's a plus right there, he was a right royal arsehole! See, this is where I can now see a brotherly truce growing between Sam and Dick, it just requires that the fetid Pa be gonzo!

Edited August 8, 2017 by gingerella

[janjan]

On rewatch:

• Bran isn't Bran anymore. That's why he's different. He told Meera that he could remember what it was like to be Bran, but he couldn't be Bran. Maybe second seers are a kind of alien invasion of the person, which displaces the original, all or in part. When Rickon told Bran their parents wouldn't be back, he said it with that same flat affect.
• Sansa is afraid of Arya, or afraid for her. I couldn't tell which. In the crypt, Arya told Sansa about her list. Sansa was taken aback, but then they both laughed. Har har, funny joke. But then Arya accepted the dagger from Not!Bran, and Sansa looked worried. And when she saw Arya defeat Brienne, that sealed it. It was no joke. Is she afraid her killer sister will turn on her, or is she afraid that Arya will pursue the list and get killed herself?
• Alfie Allen is the best actor on A Show, bar none. When Jon charged at Theon on the beach, he momentarily turned into Reek. No words, and just for a fleeting moment. But his whole being changed. Dunno how he does it.
• Maisie Williams is no slouch herself. Her look up at LF after the bout with Brienne spoke volumes of distrust and "Don't even think it, you shit." Just her expression. And she held her own with the legendary Charles Dance when she was Tywin's cup bearer. For a little kid! Wow.
• Pallas was right about the object of Tyrion's "Flee, you fucking idiot." Jaime it was.
• This is the second time Drogon has taken a hit for Dany. He'd better get combat pay. And free care at the Dragon VA.  SO . HE . DOESN'T . DIE!!!  You hear me, Show?!? I mean it!!!
• Who's going to ride the third dragon? Assuming Drogon doesn't die. [ I'm warning you, Show. ] Clearly, Arya gets one, and Dany will ride Not!Dead Drogon. There's one left. . . .

Edited August 8, 2017 by janjan
Escalated the threat level re Drogon.

[Pallas]

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The story at Winterfell is threatening to become a Greek Tragedy. Bran is an inscrutable oracle that nobody understands and perhaps will begin to be feared, or loathed... but not listened to. The siblings, now together, (at least Sansa & Arya) start re-acting like they did in Season 1 (always happens when you go home for family reunions). Sansa see Arya upstaging her leadership and hard-earned respect  (just like she did with Bran's archery lesson). Always the show off. Always grabbing the attention. Of course LF sees an opportunity.

Jon will listen, I think, and not fear Bran in the same way that Sansa seems to, and that Arya and others may as well.  He's seen what Bran sees. He's also seen warging and experienced his own resurrection: and now he's ducking dragons. I hadn't thought of Arya's sparring with Brienne as showing-off, but you're right, of course: with a factor of demonstrating to Sansa and all observers what she brings to the table, complementing or competing with Sansa's ladylike display of gravitas, beauty, good hard sense and stature. 

21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

If he didn't have the title of Three-Eyed-Raven, we could rightfully call HIM No-One. Unfortunately, that makes him difficult to relate to.

So true, and alas, poor Meera. I wonder though if Bran will eventually give Meera a more fitting thanks when he saves her and the Howlands as they are under attack -- saves them while riding on a dragon's back, as 'twas foretold. That image is a little Boy Wondrous for this saga, but...And in any case, until then, he could maybe do with a remedial course in Fancy Lad School (thank you, Bronn). 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Oh yeah, and about Sansa's look as she saw Arya fight Brienne. I did not get a jealous vibe from her at all. What I got was she was realizing that Arya wasn't kidding at all about having a list of people she was going to kill and that she likely DID indeed kill just about everyone on her list already. That's what I took that to be.

 

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

All this discussion about Bran's "gifts" has me doing an inventory about the Stark Kids in general...

I think Sansa did too, as she watched Arya, and was appalled to realize that all her remaining siblings are freaks; freaks, and destiny's children. A Three-Eyed Raven. La Femme Nymeria. King Fucking Snow.

And what does that make her? Where does that leave her? Probably, about to get an earful of Littlefinger's, "People such as you and I, who the gods did not see fit to bless, who have had to survive by our wits alone..." 

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I think that Sam's brother, Dickon, isn't a dick like Randall Tarley is, and in the end, wouldn't it be cool if Dickon - by way of his bravery and humility (as shown in him admitting war and killing are difficult), and Sam - by way of his book smarts and info gathered at The Citadel - both come together to fight along side each other, and Sam is able to take his rightful place at the Tarley table with Dickon, hopefully after Randall is dispatched by a dragon, a WW,  a zomboni, or any errant arrow? That would be nice, though nice is not what A Show is...

 

Or, the sins of the father: for betraying Olenna to advance his own House, Randyll will see his heir die.

What shit was Baelish trying to stir by giving Bran Knifey?  Just a bid for his ear?

Edited August 8, 2017 by Pallas
Tidying up

[gingerella]

Pallas, the only thing I thought when LF gave Knifey! to Bran was that LF will likely steal it back to use in some nefarious manner that sets up Stark siblings against one another. And upon writing that last sentence, I am now officially afraid for Arya because now LF sees her fighting ability, and if he knows Bran has given Knifey! to her, I can see him setting up another murder fuckery and pinning it on Arya, putting Sansa in a difficult position of imprisoning her sister...or not...God, please don't let Sansa fall for anymore of LFs bullshit.

 

I do agree that Bran is no longer really Bran, the TER had taken up residence inside Bran's body, it's just a shell tat the TER needs to use to exist, until the next host is required...

Edited August 8, 2017 by gingerella

[janjan]

39 minutes ago, Pallas said:

What shit was Baelish trying to stir by giving Bran Knifey?  Just a bid for his ear?

And a chance to profess devotion to his mother, now transferred to her son. "Anything you need, just ask." [Funny how Robyn Arryn has dropped off his radar.] And install a sense of obligation, along with the father-son camaraderie. And gain his trust as his protector ["See? Someone tried to kill you, but I'm here for you"]. And a permanent reminder of danger [the litany of Bran's travails and now the chaos], and thus Bran's need for LF's fatherly protection.

We've never seen LF so gob-smacked as he was by Bran's response. Hee!

[gingerella]

I wonder what happened to inbred Robin...poor idiot...

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

We've never seen LF so gob-smacked as he was by Bran's response. Hee!

Bran really was masterful in that scene.  Baelish talk and talks. Bran, I believe, asks one question and makes one statement. Question: "Do you know who it (Knifey) belonged to." Statement: "Chaos is a ladder."  The question forced Baelish into a lie, or exposed one from the past; the statement sent him packing. Oh, two statements -- Baelish mutters, "Sorry to have disturbed you, Lord Stark" (like he lives to do anything else) and Bran replies, "I'm not Lord Stark."  Baelish takes that in, and makes way for Meera.

I think there's still a Brandon Stark within the Three-Eyed Raven; he too has learned from his elders' mistakes, and his own.  

[Anothermi]

26 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I wonder though if Bran will eventually give Meera a more fitting thanks when he saves her and the Howlands as they are under attack -- saves them while riding on a dragon's back, as 'twas foretold.

I had and involuntary sharp intake of breath when I read the bold part. Of Course. I've spent some time searching back to when the Bran Muffin Party arrived at THE Tree to review the conversation between Root Dude and Bran.

From S04E10: The Children

Bran: You're the three-eyed raven?

Root Dude: I've been many things. Now I am what you see.

Meera: My brother, he led us to you and now he--

RD: He knew what would happen. From the moment he left, he knew and he went anyway.

B: How do you know?

RD: I've been watching you. All of you. All of your lives. With 1,000 eyes and one. Now you've come to me at last, Brandon Stark. Though the hour is late.

B: I didn't want anyone to die for me.

RD: He died so you could find what you have lost.

B: You're going to help me walk again?

RD: You will never walk again. But you will fly.

I had forgotten about that foretelling, even though I suspect we spitballed, at the time, that Bran might ride one of the dragons. It seems pretty obvious now, but back then, nothing was obvious.

The only obscure statement left from that exchange that needs clarifying is What has Bran lost that he can now find? The ability to see all that has passed feeds into another spitball of Pallas' from a while ago. That the Night King may have been a Stark ancestor. One that was Lost to the Stark clan. Bran, the Starks, were proud of their 1st men blood, but Bran would now be able to see as far back as the time of the joint cave writings on Dragonstone. He can now know what they mean.

Thanks the Gods, because Jon plans to ruin them with his dragonglass mining.

Annnd this leads me to a spitball following from Pallas's spitball that the Night King could be a Stark. Bran is a warg. Perhaps the Night Kings wargs the Dead? He himself is not fulling a living being, nor exactly dead (see Benjen: ditto) so he could warg both. Perhaps Bran can learn that skill too?

 

One other thing that came up in this re-viewing was a demonstration of (I think it was janjan's spitball re: the spells in the Wall that Benjen mentioned) a spell around THE Tree that caused 2 zombonies to shatter to pieces the same way the WWs did when struck by Sam's dragonglass dagger and Jon's Valyrian sword. Too bad there is a work around to spells (being touched by a WW while "seer-ing").

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I do agree that Bran is no longer really Bran, the TER had taken up residence inside Bran's body, it's just a shell tat the TER needs to use to exist, until the next host is required...

I don't think Bran has been taken over. He's just the next qualified candidate. Think of it as an all consuming job, not an individual.

9 minutes ago, Pallas said:

I think there's still a Brandon Stark within the Three-Eyed Raven; he too has learned from his elders' mistakes, and his own.  

So given my answer to Ging, Yeah. What Pallas wrote.

[Llywela]

Have only now got to see this episode. Well, that was exciting! I'm loving this season. So many main characters actually coming together at last! One of the best things about this show has always been watching disparate plot strands converging and bouncing off one another in often unexpected ways – now we're getting to see what happens when those disparate plot strands converge and actually merge.

I can't believe we have lived long enough to see three whole Starks in the same scene again at long last! I join with Sansa in wishing Jon were there too, but alas he's bounced off into another plot again. I really loved Arya's reunions with both Sansa and Bran – Sansa especially, since Bran is so weird right now. Speaking of which, I also love how matter-of-fact Sansa was in telling Arya that Bran has visions now, and how Arya just shrugged it off, like…they've both seen so much weird crap in the last few years, nothing seems unbelievable anymore!

I really appreciated that the show allowed a beat where Arya just sat and drank in the sights and sounds of home for a moment, before making her next move. That was needed and earned, after everything. I also really appreciated that moment at the gate, when Arya asked for Maester Luwin or Ser Rodrik, because…Arya knows what the last few years have been, she knows that Winterfell has been captured twice by the enemy, but she still assumed that the people she knew would still be there, and that tiny detail really drove home, once again, how very young she still is.

They are all painfully young still – Arya, Sansa, Bran - also Jon, Dany and Theon, really. Bear Island is ruled by a 10-year-old, the Eerie by a 12-year-old. It drives home the devastating effect of war, with the vast majority of the older generation now completely swept away, only a few holdouts remaining, with their children forced to grow up too fast to take their place.

I felt awful for poor Meera, so summarily dismissed by Bran after everything she's done for him. I especially felt bad for her because she has never really been anything more than a plot device, dropped into Bran's life out of nowhere because he needed someone to look after him, given his disability, and then brushed aside as soon as he doesn't need her any more. Since they arrived at Winterfell she hasn't had so much as a single conversation with anyone other than Bran – no thanks for her heroic efforts in keeping him alive, nothing. She wasn't even given a change of clothes!

Bran told her that while he can remember being Bran, he isn't really Bran any more, and she interpreted that as meaning he died in that cave after all, to become something else. He didn't disillusion her, just left her to trudge away in despair that all her efforts to protect him were in vain. Personally, I don't think the real Bran is dead, but I do think he has been transformed into something else, something more, which is all-consuming.

It is vaguely amusing to me that Valerian steel is apparently instantly recognisable, on sight. I can never see any overt difference between those blades and any other!

The Jon-Theon reunion was strangely muted, cut short by the segue to Dany waging war – but I suspect there must surely be more to come. I'm intrigued by Theon's request for help in rescuing Yara, as she once attempted to rescue him – will Dany honour their alliance by granting that request, distraction though it would be from her attempted conquest? I honestly can't predict, at this stage.

I was also intrigued by Dany turning to Jon for advice – actually, I'm intrigued by their entire interaction. We've never really seen this kind of relationship in Dany's life – she started out pretty meek and timid, barely willing to say boo to a goose, but then quickly attained power and since then has been primarily surrounded by underlings and supporters. She has grown used to being the one in charge, her authority unquestioned – even her Westerosi allies have acknowledged her as their queen. But Jon doesn't. He approaches her as a fellow ruler, an equal. And while Dany is frustrated by that and keeps on and on at him to bend the knee, because for all her chain-breaking exploits in Essos she is apparently incapable of envisaging any political structure for Westeros that isn't exactly the same as her ancestors had, nonetheless she does, however grudgingly, respond to him as an equal, more so than she ever really has with anyone. They butt heads over their mutual stubbornness – seriously, if anyone ever doubted that these two are related, their scenes together should remove all doubt completely – but when she was torn over what to do in that scene on the beach, instincts in conflict with the cautions of her advisors, she turned to Jon not as an underling but as a fellow ruler: "What do you think I should do?" And she meant it.

I do like about Dany that for all her stubbornness and entitlement and fire, she is willing to take advice from the people around her – even someone she was just arguing furiously with a few moments earlier. And I like the compromise that was reached - I'd love to know whose idea it was, though. "Don't burn down castles and cities, your grace, that wouldn't go down at all well - but hey, the Lannister army is out on the road, maybe take them out instead!"

Also, Davos is the best – please don't die!

The battle scenes were amazing, but so hard to watch (although not as bad as the Battle of the Bastards last year). One of the things I still really like about this show is that, although Jaime is pretty much one of the bad guys this season, I can still feel really afraid for him (and for Bronn) when the ostensible good guys attack. I think because, with a few notable exceptions, the show isn't really about 'bad people' versus 'good people', it is simply about people and the choices they make, and how arbitrary the lines between them sometimes are.

I didn't see what happened to Tarly Senior and son Dickon in the battle – did they make it? Or did they get roasted? I can't see Jaime being dead yet, although I'm a bit concerned for Bronn, since his journey through the episode in retrospect could work well as a swansong, going from his habitual insistence that he is a mercenary first and foremost, to staying and fighting despite losing his money, and then saving Jaime's life at risk of his own. Yeah, I can see how that could easily be his swansong, although I'd love to see him reunited with Tyrion again. I can't see Jaime being dead, though, not yet.

I thought it was hilarious that after being missing for so long, Knifey not only turned up in this episode, but changed hands twice! That's more action than it's seen since season one!

5 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Bran would now be able to see as far back as the time of the joint cave writings on Dragonstone. He can now know what they mean.

Thanks the Gods, because Jon plans to ruin them with his dragonglass mining.

I thought the cave writings were in a different cave than the huge one with all the obsidian that Jon plans to mine - he wanted Dany to see what the cavern looked like, huge and glittery, before they start hacking the obsidian out. Then he said he wanted to show her something else, and took her through to a different cave, with the wall art all over it. So the ancient art might be safe.

 

Edited to add: vassal. That's the word I couldn't think of above, when I was talking about Dany and Jon. Dany has been surrounded by vassals, and pretty much only vassals, for ages now - as well as she gets on with most of her people, she has never really had an actual peer. There is always a power imbalance in the relationship. And she likes that state of affairs. As fair-minded as she does try to be, she likes being in charge. She isn't used to having to approach someone on anything approaching equal terms. So she wants Jon to take what she sees as his rightful place as her vassal, like everyone else - but he refuses to do so. He won't bow down. He won't be her subject. He insists on approaching her on equal terms. She is not used to being challenged like that. And as frustrating as she finds it...when she turned to him for advice on the beach, she asked that question as a peer, ruler to ruler, not as a queen to a vassal. She wants him to bow the knee, but at the same time she is beginning to accept him for who he is. Jon is the only person she knows whose situation is anything approaching her own - an actual equal, a fellow leader, chosen by the people he rules because of the qualities he possesses, not because of any birthright. It really does make for interesting interaction between them. If they can only reach some kind of compromise...

And that reminds me of how unique Jon's true position really is. The Starks are descended from the First Men, that's their ancient birthright, yes? The Targaryens, meanwhile, came from overseas and ruled by right of conquest. Jon unites those two heritages. He is both a Stark and a Targaryen. When that comes out...it is going to be so interesting to watch.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Llywela

[Pallas]

6 hours ago, Anothermi said:

B: You're going to help me walk again?

RD: You will never walk again. But you will fly.

 

Thank you so much for finding the source, Anothermi. It was that -- combined with Bran's own image of a dragon's flying over King's Landing -- that had us going on about how he was destined to ride one of the dragons. But looking at the quote now, I have to say, I'm less convinced. When did any oracle in any myth, fantasy tale or major gospel speak so literally? Surely a Three-Eyed Raven flies? And Bran could have been seeing the city literally shadowed by a dragon at any time in its history, yes? And from any POV, including that of the dragon?

Yet Tyrion's saddle, and young Bran's delight in being mounted again. Maybe. 

More later: on vacation but off to look at a young mamma cat to join the household, bereft of my nearly-20-year Calypso, since last week. 

[janjan]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

off to look at a young mamma cat to join the household, bereft of my nearly-20-year Calypso, since last week. 

Oh poor dear Pallas! I've just lost my 28-year-old horse, so I know exactly how you feel. Please come back soon.

RD could indeed have been speaking metaphorically [again I say, ya think? ] about Not!Bran's flying. He himself, as a raven, could fly, but his body was stuck in the roots. Not!Bran could probably manage a dragon, just as he managed a horse thanks to Tyrion's saddle design. But he could be flying only in his mind.

 

6 hours ago, Llywela said:

Jon is the only person she knows whose situation is anything approaching her own - an actual equal, a fellow leader, chosen by the people he rules because of the qualities he possesses, not because of any birthright. It really does make for interesting interaction between them. If they can only reach some kind of compromise...

I'm shipping them again. Especially after Davos remarked that Jon was staring at her heart. Hee!

 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I wonder what happened to inbred Robin...poor idiot...

And then there's Little Sam. When are his autosomal recessive traits going to show up? OK, probably never. The innocent never suffer on GoT. Um, right.

[WhiteStumbler]

Re-watching the Attack on the Wagon Train, there are a few absolutely top-notch shots:

1) Bron is trying to survive in a world on fire. His horse has been cut out from under him, he pulls a sword (out of a Lannister soldier?!?) impaled to a wagon, he shoves a few burning soldiers out of the way, there are flames and ash and smoke everywhere, and Drogon does another fly-by. Not at Bronn (since this attack isn't about him), but passing near by, and his huge wings stir up a cloud of ash while his flaming dragon fire cuts through the smoke. All of it is shot from a pretty low angle, and the clarity within the chaos is great. It reminded me of some of the better sequences in monster movies of the recent past. It shows what is happening, who is causing it, what the stakes are, and what is motivating Bronn to risk his life by trying to take out Drogon and Dany.

2) Right after Bronn uncovers the Qyburn DragonSpear and says "where are you?", there is a great shot of Drogon banking above the battlefield. Again, total chaos on the ground, but it establishes that there is a river nearby, and Drogon's wings do this amazingly realistic thing as they displace the smoke of the battle. Maybe a 5 second shot, but it rocks, and Dany is seriously engaged, almost willing Drogon forward like a rider urging her horse over a hedge.

3) The last shot I want to give a shout-out to is the shot of Drogon and Dany coming in fast and low over the river, and the way the displaced air in front of him makes a little shock wave on the water. Little details like that (and the others mentioned above) ground the show in a reality that allows the truly fantasy elements to seem real, to be thrillingly and horrifyingly believable.

TL/DR version: I love Drogon.

[janjan]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

the Attack on the Wagon Train, there are a few absolutely top-notch shots:

That was the best battle scene I've ever seen. Better than Hardhome and the Battle of the Bastards, IMHO, and even better than Spielberg's D-Day assault on Normandy (color helped, as did the dragon's POV from above). As WS says, they managed to show both chaos and clarity, both close-in and bird's-eye. I missed the little touches like the shock wave on the water -- gotta watch again. If I can stomach it.

What's a TL/DR version?

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, janjan said:

What's a TL/DR version?

Too long; didn't read. Or too long; don't read. Basically, the short form for anyone who doesn't want to read all the rest!