A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The sad part is that it's not even super terrible. I wouldn't mind engaging myself with Rogers' story, Tilly/Margot's, or even Kelly's. It's not like S6 where there was nothing to mine from it at all. I actually kind of want to see a few of the characters get a second season.

That's what is so frustrating. They are finally getting to the characters I have any interest in but it's too late to really care because they'll all be gone soon. I wish they had started the season focused on Rogers, Tilly/Margot, Kelly, Sabine, Nick even, and really told their stories instead of rushing them in at the end. I would like to have seen a slow burn for Tilly and Margot, seen their love story unfold rather than whatever the fork they were trying to make happen with Henriella. I love watching Rogers and Tilly's father daughter bond even when they don't know they are father and daughter. I would like to have seen more of Kelly struggle with whether she wants to go back to living as Zelena or she wants to go all in on her new life as Kelly. I wouldn't mind seeing Kelly and Margot deal with the big secret Kelly is keeping, rather than a line here and there. 

I would not have missed Tremaine if they had just killed her off in the first episode. I wouldn't have missed Henry and Jacinda and Lucy had they ran off together to live happily ever after in episode two. I would not have missed a single one of those early storylines this season. The only interesting thing about the beginning of this season was Drucilla and that was mostly the actress so I'm sure they could have found another role for her. They focused the beginning of the season on the wrong storylines and I think it got the show axed. Not saying focusing on Rogers and this later bunch could have saved the season, but I'd be curious to see what would have happened if they had shifted focus a lot sooner. 

[Camera One]

It seems like there was a huge delay between figuring out what might not be working and the adjustment.  Part of it is unavoidable, because the show had already filmed a quarter or a third of 7A before it started airing.  But it seems like they were beginning to clue in even BEFORE it started airing.  

But then, you had a situation like the 7A finale.  Why would they be building to this Coven of 8 and Gothel trying to reunite these dangerous witches, and then not even have a single episode showing that happening?  Was the plan all along just to use the Coven as fodder for a serial killer, with references in flashback like the one with Drizella in the recruitment process?  

And then there's adding Tiana as a series regular and then having her disappear for episodes.  There's writing out Tremaine/Drizella/Anastasia, yet dragging that out over several episodes instead of doing it quickly so the writing could just move on.  There's forcing in more romantic subplots for Henry/Jacinda two episodes in a row, just when it seemed like they had been trying to course-correct.

I can't even begin to make any sense of their writing/showrunning decisions.  It's certainly more interesting and challenging than a Rubrix cube.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It seems like there was a huge delay between figuring out what might not be working and the adjustment.  Part of it is unavoidable, because the show had already filmed a quarter or a third of 7A before it started airing.  But it seems like they were beginning to clue in even BEFORE it started airing.  

I've been trying to figure out if the problem is the raw material or the execution. Could other writers have taken the basics -- Henry goes to another world to have adventures and grows into an adult, where he meets a different version of Cinderella, and a curse puts him and the people around him in present-day Seattle -- and made it work?

There are bits of it that are just flawed from the start and hard to fix. There's Henry's motivation for his adventures that's incredibly unsympathetic. There's making Cinderella a would-be murderer twice in the first three episodes. There's making Lady Tremaine such an ally of the king that there's a resistance movement against her, which sort of undermines the whole "I want my daughter to go to the ball to win the prince, and I want to keep my stepdaughter away from the ball" bit about the Cinderella story. And why would Lady Tremaine try to keep Ella away from the ball when she planned to frame her for murder? That also undermines the Cinderella story. And there's the timeline stuff.

I think a lot of the issues come back to their usual problem of not enough development and throwing in too many ingredients. If they'd really developed the Cinderella stuff in the past, actually shown her being Cinderella, delved into the resistance movement, shown what Lady Tremaine was up to, and developed some reasonable motivation for Drizella in the past and had made the gentrification and separating people in the present matter, and had the outcome fit Drizella's motivation, I think they could have made some of it work.

The Cinderella casting is so bad that I'm surprised they didn't immediately recast and then reshoot. Some of it's the writing, and the world's greatest actress couldn't make this part truly work, but this actress managed to make bad material even worse and has zero chemistry with any other cast members.

A lot of the problem is that their way of fixing things seems to be to keep throwing in more stuff instead of digging into the stuff they've already got. As a result, we've got Cinderella plus the Rapunzel story, but Gothel's part of a coven, and one of the stepsisters has somehow become a powerful magical being that Rumple needs, except maybe not because she's gone now, and oh, there's a serial killer going after the coven.

As for season 8, the problem is that I can't see this situation being stretched out to another season. They'd have to reboot by sending them back to the Disenchanted Forest, then maybe having another curse take them somewhere else. With them being in the middle of a real city, it's hard to have too many "I want to take over the neighborhood" big bad villains. I guess maybe they could do a season after everyone has their memories back (somehow without Henry dying, I guess) with the goal being to keep the secret of magic from the rest of the city. But they're already struggling to handle season 7. I can only imagine the mess season 8 would be.

[Camera One]

16 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

As for season 8, the problem is that I can't see this situation being stretched out to another season. They'd have to reboot by sending them back to the Disenchanted Forest, then maybe having another curse take them somewhere else. With them being in the middle of a real city, it's hard to have too many "I want to take over the neighborhood" big bad villains.

Knowing A&E, Season 8 would still involve Hyperion Heights.  Another new amnesia Curse two seasons in a row would be too repetitive, even for them.  I think the Season 7 finale would have mirrored the Season 1 finale... they would all remember.

But aside from Whook and Alice, I really don't see where any the characters could go from here even after they remembered.  Once Jacinda remembers Henry, then what?  It's not like they had any problems as newly weds in the flashbacks.  Regina and Henry remembers... what's the difference?  

Initially, going into Season 7, I wonder if they intended that their entire new cast - including Tremaine - would have continued on for multiple seasons.  I suspect so because they pretty much replaced every original with a counterpart.  Lucy = Young Henry, Adult Henry = Emma/Charming, Jacinda = Snow, Tremaine = The Evil Queen, Gothel = Rumple, and then they had on top of that Original Regina, Original Rumple (who was probably out) and Whook.  

With all the changes they made, I have a feeling they're lying that they had a plan for Season 8.  Maybe they did have a cliffhanger, but beyond that, I don't know.

Quote

I guess maybe they could do a season after everyone has their memories back (somehow without Henry dying, I guess) with the goal being to keep the secret of magic from the rest of the city.

That would be a distinct possibility.  They're being hunted in Seattle.  They don't know who to trust, who are regular folk and who are ex-Disenchanted Forest folk.   They could have done what they never carried out fully with Tamara and Greg.  And then Gothel brings magic back and her actions might threaten to expose them, but she has to work with everyone because she's being hunted too.  That's how they would force these characters to stay together.  I actually wouldn't mind watching a season of that.  To make fun of it for another year, of course.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

But aside from Whook and Alice, I really don't see where any the characters could go from here even after they remembered.  Once Jacinda remembers Henry, then what?  It's not like they had any problems as newly weds in the flashbacks.  Regina and Henry remembers... what's the difference?  

I'm not even sure what WHook and Alice do after they remember. I kind of want them to just settle down and have quiet, normal lives, which wouldn't make for an interesting show. But I don't know why I feel that way about them and felt like the door was wide open for Emma and her parents to have more adventures after the curse broke. Maybe because Emma was a newcomer to all things fairytale and had new stuff to experience and discover. Alice has already gone realm hopping and had adventures. Because Storybrooke was more a bubble of the Enchanted Forest world located in our world, there was more room for stuff to happen. In Hyperion Heights, they're mixed into the "real" world. Their options are dealing with mundane problems using storybook knowledge and magic or trying to deal with magical things without the rest of the world catching on, which makes this basically Grimm 2. That would certainly bring things full circle, since the two fairytale shows started around the same time and were often compared to each other back then. It's funny that this show ends up being cops in the Pacific Northwest who are dealing with fairytale villains. It would be even more Grimm-like if Rogers got his memories back and was also aware of the fairytale connections.

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm not even sure what WHook and Alice do after they remember. 

That's a good point.  I was thinking about them as if they were Snowing/Emma (because they are the only pairing that evokes the same sort of feeling), but their history is actually completely different.  Whook and Alice spent time together when she was a child, and as you said, Alice has already gone realm travelling.  With Snowing and Emma, they needed to get to know each other as adults and deal with the pain of never having to know each other and Emma grew up entirely in the world without magic so there would be a huge difference in values and mindset (well technically, there were tons to explore but of course not in A&E's eyes).  I mean, Whook and Alice did lose a lot of time together and their separation was painful, but "waking up" is not as huge.  Plus technically, their hearts are still poisoned so they really can't just go back to the Disenchanted Forest.  If anything, they should just stay in the modern world.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

If they find a cure to their Curse, they can return to the magical lands. WHook can regain captaincy of the Jolly Roger from Smee (who’d gladly give the shirt off his back for his captain) and take Alice on seafaring adventures. Somebody could kidnap Robyn, necessitating a dashing rescue from Alice. That’s one direction to take their story. Zelena and her normal bf could join the rescue team, adding to the snark and fun.

And in Season 8, with enough distance from CS, they could finally have given WHook a love-interest as well. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Is it too late to send cold beignets and lasagna to ABC to demand a Season 8?

[KingOfHearts]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Is it too late to send cold beignets and lasagna to ABC to demand a Season 8?

Never give up HOPE, even in the face of imminent cancellation. 

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Never give up HOPE, even in the face of imminent cancellation. 

Thanks for reminding us of having HOPE.  Following the example of heroes on this show, we should all go to a diner to eat some lasagna or maybe sing and dance at someone's wedding, and everything will work out.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Thanks for reminding us of having HOPE.  Following the example of heroes on this show, we should all go to a diner to eat some lasagna or maybe sing and dance at someone's wedding, and everything will work out.

That's how I solved world hunger.

[Shanna Marie]

57 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

If they find a cure to their Curse, they can return to the magical lands. WHook can regain captaincy of the Jolly Roger from Smee (who’d gladly give the shirt off his back for his captain) and take Alice on seafaring adventures. Somebody could kidnap Robyn, necessitating a dashing rescue from Alice. That’s one direction to take their story. Zelena and her normal bf could join the rescue team, adding to the snark and fun.

It would be nice if they could distance themselves from the formula and just do stuff like that -- fairytale adventures involving characters who also have memories of living in our world, without the curse/flashback conceit. Or maybe flashbacks for backstory, but no curse in the modern world part. I think it's the curse formula that's the problem for going forward and may even have been what held them back this season.

[PixiePaws1]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Is it too late to send cold beignets and lasagna to ABC to demand a Season 8?

Is it too late to send cold beignets and lasagna to ABC to demand a Season 8..and that A&E are not allowed to have any input whatsoever?

(Fixed it for you..;o)..)

All i want is a CS adventure movie wih Snowing, Hope, Ariel and Eric with snarky Cruella, and no sign of Regina, Rumple or Henry.

[Camera One]

Because I was bored, I typed up the back cover of Henry Mill's book.  There are a few words too blurry to see so I had to guess.

--------------

"An epic, romantic, and action-packed fantasy..."

For a bail bond agent, Emma Swan, life has been anything but a fairy tale. But when she's reunited with Henry - the son she gave up for adoption - on the night of her 28th birthday, everything begins to change.

The young boy is in desperate need of Emma's help.  He is convinced from reading a book of fairytales that she is no other than the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming - who sent her away from the realm of the Enchanted Forest to be protected from a curse that was enacted by the Evil Queen.

Emma initially refuses to believe a word of Henry's story but soon discovers that his sleepy hometown of Storybrooke, Maine is more than it seems.  Because it's in Storybrooke that all the fairytale characters we know are frozen in town with no memories of their former selves - except for the Evil Queen, who is Storybrooke's mayor and Henry's adoptive mother, Regina Mills.

Emma will have to accept her destiny and uncover the mystery behind a place where fairytales are truly to be believed.

USA $7.99
 

[Rumsy4]

Lol. Did they copy verbatim from a pre-Season 1 TV-Guide summary? 

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

USA $7.99

 

 

I love that this huge book with dozens of beutiful illustrrations is selling for 8 bucks instead of the $50 or so another book of this sort would!  I hope the illustrator (have they ever even hinted as to who that is?) gets $7 for each book sold.

[greekmom]

Not sure if this is the right thread but S07.E17: Chosen the series finale?

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Not sure if this is the right thread but S07.E17: Chosen the series finale?

No.  There are thankfully 22 episodes this season.

7 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I love that this huge book with dozens of beutiful illustrrations is selling for 8 bucks instead of the $50 or so another book of this sort would!  I hope the illustrator (have they ever even hinted as to who that is?) gets $7 for each book sold.

Henry does his own illustrations during REM sleep.

Edited April 9, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Henry does his own illustrations during REM sleep.

And the writing during NREM sleep.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I love that this huge book with dozens of beutiful illustrrations is selling for 8 bucks instead of the $50 or so another book of this sort would!  I hope the illustrator (have they ever even hinted as to who that is?) gets $7 for each book sold.

$7.99 is a mass-market paperback. This is a trade paperback, so at least $14.99, though I don't see too many trades that size, not of novels. Maybe cookbooks and the like. The only paperback novels I see that size are review copies of hardcovers, so it's the interior of a hardcover with a paperback cover. But I doubt the illustrator gets that much. The author probably only makes at most about 50 cents per copy if the cover price is $7.99. Since Henry is supposedly the illustrator (in spite of us never seeing him do art-type stuff -- wouldn't an artist sketch or doodle, like Rogers does?), that might fall under the same royalty, depending on how his contract is structured.

I would love to know what illustrations other than the picture of Emma are in there. Because there apparently weren't any of Regina, Hook, or Rumple, who would have to be among the main characters, since no one seems to have recognized them. It's Lucy's favorite book, and she never had a "hey, you look kind of like Regina/Hook" moment with Roni or Rogers. Henry, who supposedly drew the illustrations, didn't do a double take upon meeting people who look just like the characters he imagined well enough to be able to draw them.

[superloislane]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

"An epic, romantic, and action-packed fantasy..."

For a bail bond agent, Emma Swan, life has been anything but a fairy tale. But when she's reunited with Henry - the son she gave up for adoption - on the night of her 28th birthday, everything begins to change.

The young boy is in desperate need of Emma's help.  He is convinced from reading a book of fairytales that she is no other than the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming - who sent her away from the realm of the Enchanted Forest to be protected from a curse that was enacted by the Evil Queen.

Emma initially refuses to believe a word of Henry's story but soon discovers that his sleepy hometown of Storybrooke, Maine is more than it seems.  Because it's in Storybrooke that all the fairytale characters we know are frozen in town with no memories of their former selves - except for the Evil Queen, who is Storybrooke's mayor and Henry's adoptive mother, Regina Mills.

Emma will have to accept her destiny and uncover the mystery behind a place where fairytales are truly to be believed.

USA $7.99

Wait I thought Henry made himself the main character in his book? But going off this summary, which is clearly ripped from the actual synopsis of the show, Emma seems to be the main character. And as far as we know, there's a picture of Emma in the book and no other characters. I'm confused as to what that book is about!

[Rumsy4]

So...Henry thinks he wrote himself into the story as a 10 year old boy. Niiice. 

[jhlipton]

I thought it looked like a hardback, since, as you say, most books that size, other than graphic novels, are.  But I'm confused -- don't we think that the other pics from the WishBerse are also in there?

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I thought it looked like a hardback, since, as you say, most books that size, other than graphic novels, are.  But I'm confused -- don't we think that the other pics from the WishBerse are also in there?

The cover bends like a paperback, at least, the way I remember. We have no idea what other pics are in there. We've just seen Emma's picture. That may just be a random illustration thrown in, or there may be others. If there are others, they must not be pictures of any of the main characters who are in Hyperion Heights (or whose double is in Hyperion Heights), or else they're all idiots and no one has remarked on how much Rogers, Roni, Weaver, and Kelly look like Hook, Regina, Rumple, and Zelena. I think the book is just the first six seasons of the show, so not the backstory of the Wishverse, other than perhaps Emma's visit there.

This season doesn’t really flow very well. There are big gaps in the plot lines and threads that don’t seem to go anywhere, with the dots not really connecting, and that becomes more obvious when you look at the events in chronological order.

Gothel imprisons Rapunzel in the tower. Years later, she escapes, only to find that her husband has remarried and her younger daughter barely knows her. When Drizella barely acknowledges her at a birthday party, Rapunzel gives in to Gothel’s temptation to poison her husband’s new wife. After she and her husband are back together, her older daughter dies saving her stepdaughter from falling through the ice. Gothel offers to revive Anastasia, but she’d be trapped in the tower. Instead, Rapunzel tricks Gothel and traps her in the tower.

Some time later, Gothel tricks Whook into fathering Alice and abandons the baby in the tower, using her as a chance to escape. When Whook may have found a way to free Alice, Gothel poisons him so he can’t be near her. Years afterward, Alice manages to free herself.

Somewhere along the way, Rapunzel/Lady Tremaine gets the prince to murder her husband because he saved Ella instead of Anastasia. She won’t let Drizella learn magic. Apparently, she and Drizella mistreat Ella (though last we saw, Drizella and Ella got along together). Lady Tremaine tortures and murders the fairy godmother who helped Ella go to the ball, and she frames Ella for the prince’s murder. Apparently, Lady Tremaine is allied closely enough with the king that a resistance movement against the king also considers her a target. She guilt trips Ella over Anastasia’s death and wants the heart of a true believer to use to revive her. Regina teaches Drizella magic and mentions that the Dark Curse is a bad idea. Drizella immediately decides to cast the Dark Curse. Gothel recruits her, and she and her coven set up the curse, forcing Regina to cast it by poisoning Henry. The only way to save his life is to cast the curse that will send them to the world without magic.

At some point into the curse, Lucy figures out that her favorite fantasy book is true and that the book’s author is her father. She tries to persuade him that they’re under a curse and he belongs with her mother. Lady Tremaine has become real estate mogul Victoria Belfrey, and Lucy thinks she cast the curse. She’s gentrifying the Hyperion Heights neighborhood, forcing people to leave, which is splitting up the various fairy tale characters, and she’s taken custody of Lucy from Jacinda, while also being horribly bitchy to her daughter, Ivy. She tries to get Weaver (Rumple) to arrest Henry when he starts a blog investigating her, and she forces Weaver to drug Tilly when it looks like she might be remembering, but Rumple has also rigged things for Alice/Tilly to wake him. Victoria retrieves Anastasia’s coffin and keeps Gothel imprisoned. She needs to destroy the belief of a believer to revive Anastasia, and Lucy’s her target. Meanwhile, she’s also trying to destroy Jacinda and Sabine’s attempts at starting a business (maybe so Lucy will lose belief?). But Ivy also has her memories and just made her mother think she cast the curse. She “wakes” Regina so she’ll remember why they can’t break the curse. Rogers (WHook) finds and rescues Gothel, which gets Victoria thrown in prison until Weaver schemes to free her.

Victoria manages to destroy Lucy’s belief enough to wake Anastasia, but that puts Lucy in a coma. Gothel takes Anastasia and saps Ivy’s powers and imprisons Ivy and Victora. Gothel is doing a ritual to save Lucy by killing Ivy, but Victoria intervenes and dies while Lucy is saved. Meanwhile, there’s a serial killer killing members of the coven. Ivy barely escapes, and she and Anastasia go back to their home world. The killer is actually Hansel (known under the curse as Nick, who is believed to be Lucy’s birth father), mad because the coven had his sister killed. Gothel, in spite of being a potential target, seems to be focused on toying with Rogers, giving him an important clue but also messing with his mind.

And also, Dr. Facilier is sleeping with Regina while trying to get Rumple’s dagger, and for some reason he’s making Naveen get Sabine to trust him.

None of this makes much sense when you list it like this. They’re just doing things that work within a single episode, but nothing really flows from one event to the other. Most of Victoria’s actions and Gothel’s actions make little sense when you outline them like this. It’s also apparent how little a role Regina and Henry are playing when I can outline the plot while barely mentioning them in the present day. Ditto with Zelena. Basically, we've just got a bunch of random stuff happening in order to play out whatever episode theme, but it doesn't connect very well.

[RhyleeS]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The cover bends like a paperback, at least, the way I remember. We have no idea what other pics are in there. We've just seen Emma's picture. That may just be a random illustration thrown in, or there may be others. If there are others, they must not be pictures of any of the main characters who are in Hyperion Heights (or whose double is in Hyperion Heights), or else they're all idiots and no one has remarked on how much Rogers, Roni, Weaver, and Kelly look like Hook, Regina, Rumple, and Zelena. I think the book is just the first six seasons of the show, so not the backstory of the Wishverse, other than perhaps Emma's visit there.

We have only seen two pictures from Henry's book, both of Emma.  The one that Rogers asked Henry about and the one where Emma is kissing Henry in the hospital from the season 1 finale.  Lucy mentioned only recognizing Roni as being Regina because of a scene she read in the book so I just assumed there were no pictures of anyone else from season's 1-6.  

[Camera One]

The real back cover of Henry's book -

"An epic, romantic, and action-packed fantasy..."

For a bail bond agent Emma Swan, life has been anything but a fairy tale. But then she is reunited with her son Henry who brings her to the town of Storybrooke where The Evil Queen tries to put her under a Sleeping Curse but Henry gets it instead so she kisses him and the Curse is broken.  But then The Evil Queen's evil mother comes to town and then Henry gets kidnapped by Peter Pan and Emma goes to rescue him but then Peter Pan comes to Storybrooke and enacts a new Curse that sends everyone back to Fairytale Land except Emma and Henry.  Then the Wicked Witch of the West tries to kidnap Snow White's baby so Snow enacts a new Curse that brings everyone back to Storybrooke, and the heroes must defeat the Wicked Witch and then the Snow Queen and then the Queens of Darkness.  At this point, the evil Dark One Curse is let loose and Emma absorbs it to save the town and she goes to Camelot where her boyfriend Captain Hook dies and goes to the Underworld, so she goes to get him back.  Upon her return, Emma learns that all Saviors die and she faces The Black Fairy who gets killed by someone else, so Emma can finally begin her new happy beginning.  But then Henry is tired of being in other people's stories and wants his own story so he uses a magic bean to enter another realm with another Cinderella and they meet and she punches him in the face and steals his motorcycle.

Lucy a random child calls it "My favorite book" and Detective Weaver of the Hyperion Heights police department declares "Henry is my favorite character."

Buy this today for $7.99 because it's not worth a penny more.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Reading these disjointed summaries of OUAT makes me wonder if they're better fit for a comic book format. Most superhero comics are full of inconsistencies, canon reboots, alternate timelines, multiverses, etc.. Fables, a forerunner of ONCE, was a comic book series. I was skimming over the wikipedia entry for it, and seems like A&E "borrowed" heavily from it, including putting a sword into Snow White's hand, which Eddy claims credit for. 

Of the actual ONCE-comics, I read the one where Hook meets Liam, and is unsure whether he's real or a kind of spectre. He has to decide whether to save "Liam" and jeopardize the life of his crew, or let his brother go. It was really good. I wish that had been alluded to in the Underworld arc. Who am I kidding--they wouldn't even let them hug.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

None of this makes much sense when you list it like this. They’re just doing things that work within a single episode, but nothing really flows from one event to the other. Most of Victoria’s actions and Gothel’s actions make little sense when you outline them like this. It’s also apparent how little a role Regina and Henry are playing when I can outline the plot while barely mentioning them in the present day. Ditto with Zelena. Basically, we've just got a bunch of random stuff happening in order to play out whatever episode theme, but it doesn't connect very well.

WOW! Thank you for listing it out chronologically like that. I wish the writers had done as much work. Maybe it wouldn't be a convoluted mess. Even with it laid out I can't really figure out what Victoria/Rapunzel or Gothels motivations are. At least Hansel's motivation is clear. A witch killed his sisters so he wants revenge against witches. Maybe that's why I find this story arc better, because it kind of makes some sense as opposed to the clusterfuck that is Rapunzel/Gothel.

[jhlipton]

12 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Ivy also has her memories and just made her mother think she cast the curse.

If Victoria/Rapunzel is "awake", wouldn't she know that she didn't cast the curse?

[Camera One]

Victoria was awake with false memories of how the curse was enacted.

The dumbest thing is Gothel agreeing to be chained up for 3 years.

[Mitch]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Victoria was awake with false memories of how the curse was enacted.

The dumbest thing is Gothel agreeing to be chained up for 3 years.

Really stupid...(plus..where did she go the the bathroom...all these goofy kidnap story lines on fantasy shows and soaps just make me think where the hell are they doing their business and are they getting clean underwear...) The urban setting is there, why didn't they just make Gothal a homeless woman walking around muttering...(of course she would only be acting, she would go back to a clean studio apartment like Jadis on Walking Dead.)

I do have to say, everyone dumps on the Cinderella actress and yes, I agree she is terrible, but I think people give the Henry actor a pass when they shouldn't. His acting in the last episode was cringe worthy and he has no chemistry with any actor, from Rogers, to Nick to even Regina. When he is supposed to show love he looks like a dork (okay, maybe he is in character there..) I just think the only thing this guy should be playing is a snarky, creepy millennial cannibal.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Even with it laid out I can't really figure out what Victoria/Rapunzel or Gothels motivations are.

Their actions seem to have been driven by the plot needs of individual episodes. It makes even less sense if the curse has been going on for three years (and that messes up the timeline even further, making all the characters that much older). If Victoria thought she cast the curse because it would somehow be easier to revive Anastasia in this world than in the other world (maybe she couldn't make Lucy believe and then not believe while she was in a fairy tale world?), then why did she wait three years to get the coffin and start taking action? Why did Gothel not only let herself be held captive, but be held captive for three years? What did Drizella think she was accomplishing with this curse? It was supposed to be to get revenge on her mother, but her mother had wealth and power, thought she was in control, and Drizella was under her thumb, being tormented by her. Not seeing the revenge here. Why couldn't Gothel have done the magic to revive Anastasia without going through Victoria? What was the reason Gothel wanted this curse? Nothing about this part of the plot makes any sense at all, and it's hard to imagine there being any revelation they could make that would let all the pieces fall into place.

1 hour ago, Mitch said:

I do have to say, everyone dumps on the Cinderella actress and yes, I agree she is terrible, but I think people give the Henry actor a pass when they shouldn't.

It's harder to tell with Henry because his character has always been lame (well, after season one). Is this guy just a weak actor, or is he doing a brilliant job of projecting the Henry we saw in the previous few seasons into the future? Hyperion Heights Henry is even worse because Henry's only real distinguishing characteristic has been his enthusiastic belief, but his cursed identity seems to be a hopeless sad sack, so he doesn't have any real traits. I guess Cinderella gets more criticism because abrasive is actively annoying, while it's easy to forget Henry's even there, and if he's essentially invisible, he's not irritating. We only remember to hate him when he's doing something other than being wallpaper in an episode. It's like your eyes just slide right off him, and when he speaks, you think about getting a snack.

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

Victoria was awake with false memories of how the curse was enacted.

So she's "awake" but with cursed memories (unlike everyone else who is either fully awake with full memories or cursed with no memory)?  Alrighty then.

[Mabinogia]

18 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

So she's "awake" but with cursed memories (unlike everyone else who is either fully awake with full memories or cursed with no memory)?  Alrighty then.

Cause that totally makes sense.

There is no way in hell that was planned from the beginning. It's too stupid, even for these morons. I think Victoria didn't test well with audiences so they needed a new Big Bad. Right? Cause, that can't have been something someone actually wrote down as an idea, then someone else approved it, then a whole bunch of people got together and filmed it and not one of them said "wait, this doesn't really make sense". Oh, is THAT why they don't tell the actors what is going on? So they can't question how stupid it is? It's all making sense now. Not the show, that will never make sense. 

[Shanna Marie]

20 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

So she's "awake" but with cursed memories (unlike everyone else who is either fully awake with full memories or cursed with no memory)? 

I guess she wasn't "awake" so much as her curse identity was as Lady Tremaine pretending to be cursed as Victoria Belfrey after she cast the curse. That meant that most of her memories about her identity were real and she was aware of her identity, but she had fake memories about casting the curse, her motivations for casting the curse, capturing and imprisoning Gothel, and her plans once she was in Hyperion Heights. I'm not sure she was ever actually truly awake, knowing everything that really happened. That's one twist that I actually think is kind of clever, to make someone else think they're responsible. It just needed a bit more of a rationale from Drizella and Gothel's perspective because I don't see how it served them to make her think she cast the curse. It didn't seem to add to the torture, didn't make her act differently, didn't really change her plans for Anastasia.

I'd think that scheme would have worked better to torture a good person and make that person think they'd cast the curse for some dastardly reason, but let them keep their real identity so they'd feel really bad about it. Like, if for curse 1, Snow got to keep her identity memories, but Regina made her think she'd cast the Dark Curse and had murdered David to do so, and Regina spent the whole curse snarking at her about being responsible for their current situation because she was so desperate to lash out at Regina.

[Mabinogia]

3 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Snow got to keep her identity memories, but Regina made her think she'd cast the Dark Curse and had murdered David to do so, and Regina spent the whole curse snarking at her about being responsible for their current situation because she was so desperate to lash out at Regina.

That would have been a brilliant twist. 

Yeah, I don't really get what the point was with Dru/Tremaine. Tremaine didn't seem to be suffering at all from believing she had cast the curse. She seemed fine with it, possibly good about it. I just don't see how the curse was bad for Tremaine at all. She still got to torment Ella by taking her child. She still got to treat Dru like trash, she still got to be rich and powerful and lord it over everyone, plus she got to have an air of superiority thinking she ruined everyone's lives and they don't even know it. 

[Camera One]

From Victoria's perspective, she thought she was in charge.  It wasn't punishment at all.   But I suppose A&E was going for Drizella thinking that the worst punishment was getting really close to what you want, thinking she has won, and then having the rug pulled out from under you.  Or something.  It was basically stupid.  

From Gothel's perspective, it's really more nonsensical than Drizella's.  Drizella had to endure 3 years of being under her mother's thumb AGAIN and being verbally criticized day after day.  Gothel agreed to be chained up for 3 years, which was even worse.  Why did she need to be chained up for Drizella to have her revenge?  How did it help Gothel get to Anastasia?  There are stupidly complicated villain plans and then there are just idiotic pointless ones, like what we saw.

Did they expect Lucy to bring Henry to Hyperion Heights eventually?  If Henry hadn't come, would Drizella and Gothel's plans have been carried out?  What the hell were they waiting for?  I think we're supposed to think Victoria hid Anastasia away so well.  But wasn't Gothel/Drizella in charge of where everyone would be in this Curse?

And then, there's the storybook.  Why did the Curse create it?  It's not like the last one, where Rumple put in Snowing's hair.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

But I suppose A&E was going for Drizella thinking that the worst punishment was getting really close to what you want, thinking she has won, and then having the rug pulled out from under you.

So, basically a repeat of Zelena's brilliant revenge scheme to pose as Marian and give her blessing to Robin and Regina, only to suddenly have her heart "freeze" so she had to leave town with Robin -- let Regina get close to what she wants, then pull it away. Except with being stuck with a man she didn't love, living in a rathole in a strange city with no money, and not being around to see Regina's misery. I guess Drizella's one up on that because she got to watch her mother thinking she was in charge.

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

If Henry hadn't come, would Drizella and Gothel's plans have been carried out?  What the hell were they waiting for? 

That's the big question if the curse has really been in effect for three years. Why did they only start taking action this far into things? But I wonder if it really has been three years or if the curse just dumped Margot in a far-off place with fake memories of leaving three years ago and she never actually was in Hyperion Heights.

It's hard to imagine that this whole storyline was planned in advance. It lurches from one thing to another, sometimes in a contradictory way, usually purely based on what will be the biggest shocking moment. Given that the person Rogers was originally looking for was described as being a little girl ten years ago, you have to wonder if they originally planned it to be Gothel, or if that was all about making us think it would be Tilly but the big aha moment when it's Gothel. Or did they plan it to be Tilly, and then they remembered that she was Weaver's informant, and surely Weaver would connect the dots and recognize someone from the missing persons list? It seems like half the plot developments this season have been primarily done as the big "dun-dun-dun!" shocking cliffhangers for episodes and make little sense in the broader context.

[Camera One]

Gothel's motivation was to find The Guardian, but once she had Anastasia, she did nothing with her (before Anastasia ran away off-screen).  Then, they had Drizella say in her last episode "You just want the power [Anastasia] has as The Guardian so you could get the Dark One's dagger."

There are so many other ways of getting The Dark One's dagger, as we've seen on this show.  Gothel's way of going about it is more than beating around the bush.  How many years has she been going at it?  Ever since Victoria was a Young Rapunzel.  And how did she even find out about The Dark One in the Enchanted Forest?  Doesn't the Disenchanted Forest have something similar?  

It doesn't help that the concept of The Guardian is still completely nebulous.  Not to mention Weaver's sudden laissez-faire "Oh, we will just wait until the next Guardian" as if they're a dime a dozen.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Camera One

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

Not to mention Weaver's sudden laissez-faire "Oh, we will just wait until the next Guardian" as if they're a dime a dozen.

That is what always cracks me up about this show. They will make this HUGE deal out of something, the curse, the inability to move between realms, the Dark One, the Guardian, the Savior, True Loves Kiss, as if all of these things are some elusive unicorn that take years and luck and absolute dedication to find. And then, once they are found, they are suddenly everywhere.

Remember when Rumple had to spend 20+ years to get to his son because one couldn't just pop in and out or realms like you are just travelling from Oregon to Washington? Yet now everyone is travelling everywhere. They should have had a storyline where someone, be it evil or good, destroyed all the barriers between worlds. That could have been fun, it would be a free for all of characters from different realms coming and going trying to find their own story like Henry. lol

The Guardian was very important, and everyone was looking for the Guardian, until she was no longer important because....reasons. Emma was the Saviour and it was such a rare and special thing, until other saviors showed up. True Loves Kiss was the most epic spell breaker of all time, but sure, anyone can do it, unless the writers don't want them to, then it just won't work for no apparent reason. And don't even get me started on the magic beans that suddenly seem to sprout up everywhere, but only when needed to move a story along. This is the most inconsistently written, low risk show of all time. Any time the writers write themselves into a corner, they just change the rules and...magic. It's frustrating as a viewer because if there is no logic, there is no way to follow the story with any real interest because anything can be changed or undone for any reason.

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I guess she wasn't "awake" so much as her curse identity was as Lady Tremaine pretending to be cursed as Victoria Belfrey after she cast the curse. That meant that most of her memories about her identity were real and she was aware of her identity, but she had fake memories about casting the curse, her motivations for casting the curse, capturing and imprisoning Gothel, and her plans once she was in Hyperion Heights. I'm not sure she was ever actually truly awake, knowing everything that really happened.

At what point did you say to yourself "WTF asm I typing???"  Because now we've introduced the False Narrator.  We can;t trust any of the memories of these people, because they may be part of the curse.  Maybe Henry won't die if the curse is broken, Regina just thinks that because he's still not truly awake -- she has false memories of the Disenchanted Forest.

Or, the most logical, simplest and most likely explanation: TSTW

[Shanna Marie]

10 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

At what point did you say to yourself "WTF asm I typing???"  Because now we've introduced the False Narrator.  We can;t trust any of the memories of these people, because they may be part of the curse.  Maybe Henry won't die if the curse is broken, Regina just thinks that because he's still not truly awake -- she has false memories of the Disenchanted Forest.

I think we can trust the things we've actually seen. So, although the earlier episodes came across like Victoria cast the curse and was trying to maintain it, we actually saw that Drizella instigated the curse in conjunction with Gothel, and they forced Regina to cast it. If it's just someone saying something they think they remember, then I question it. If we've seen the scene in flashbacks, we have to accept that it's true (until they do a fake flashback). That's why I'm iffy on whether or not the curse has been in effect for three years. We've seen no empirical proof that they've been there for three years, so while that is possible, it's also possible that they have fake memories of things happening three years ago. I don't think Lady Tremaine's cursed identity is any odder than anyone else's. They all have fake memories of who they are and how they got there. Hers included the curse and the Disenchanted Forest, with some of it true and some of it fake.

It's probably weirder that Lucy knew all about the curse, her mother's real identity, and Henry's real identity, for no reason other than maybe a novel Henry wrote (with himself as the main character) that has his avatar meeting a woman in the last chapter, in spite of her having cursed memories of growing up in Hyperion Heights with a single mom. And even though she knows and believes all now, she apparently doesn't have memories because she didn't know who Henry's friends were back in the Disenchanted Forest and didn't know that Rogers was Captain Hook.

[Camera One]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's probably weirder that Lucy knew all about the curse, her mother's real identity, and Henry's real identity, for no reason other than maybe a novel Henry wrote (with himself as the main character) that has his avatar meeting a woman in the last chapter, in spite of her having cursed memories of growing up in Hyperion Heights with a single mom. And even though she knows and believes all now, she apparently doesn't have memories because she didn't know who Henry's friends were back in the Disenchanted Forest and didn't know that Rogers was Captain Hook.

I'm having a hard time buying that too.  That's what happens when they try to transplant the premise from Season 1 with this requel.   In Season 1, I just accepted that Henry truly believed in what he was saying.  He had more reason to question what was happening around him, with the dejà vu and people around him not aging.  I'm not sure if we're supposed to think the book made him see Mary Margaret as Snow White, or if he pictured her as Snow White because of the illustrations.  

[KingOfHearts]

54 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'm not sure if we're supposed to think the book made him see Mary Margaret as Snow White, or if he pictured her as Snow White because of the illustrations.  

In the 3x11 flashback, he saw her as Snow White pretty instantly after she gave it to him. I'm going to make a guess it was magic, but it was more likely they just wanted to show Henry gaining "hope" is a single scene.

[Rumsy4]

I am sort of looking forward to the next episode. As promos are not considered spoilers, I'm posting here. I guess we'll finally see what Rumple did for Alice to turn him into Imp!Rumple. WHook seemed all surprised to see Gold, so this is probably when he discovers there's another version of his enemy as well. And hopefully, we'll learn why everyone including Rumple, Gothel, and now, Facilier, are obsessed with the "Guardian".

[KingOfHearts]

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I am sort of looking forward to the next episode. As promos are not considered spoilers, I'm posting here. I guess we'll finally see what Rumple did for Alice to turn him into Imp!Rumple. WHook seemed all surprised to see Gold, so this is probably when he discovers there's another version of his enemy as well. And hopefully, we'll learn why everyone including Rumple, Gothel, and now, Facilier, are obsessed with the "Guardian".

I'm getting some "The Apprentice" vibes with Rumple testing Alice instead of Anna.

[Shanna Marie]

The discussion in the episode thread about whether the Oz we saw was the same Oz as is associated with the Enchanted Forest or a different one, and whether or not it's the same Wonderland, and is that different from the Wishverse Wonderland, etc., brings up just how complicated they made things with that "there are multiple versions of the same story" thing, and how unnecessary it ended up being.

Really, there's absolutely nothing about the Cinderella story that's essential to the plot. Jacinda/Ella could have been any random woman. She was so separated from the Lady Tremaine story that she ended up having nothing to do with all the Lady Tremaine/Drizella/Anastasia stuff. It was all about their relationship, with almost no interaction with Jacinda. Anastasia didn't seem to even care to see the stepsister she died saving. It also doesn't really matter to their story that they're the Cinderella characters. All that really matters is that Lady Tremaine was awful enough to Drizella that Drizella wanted to cast the curse to punish her mother, and that's not even consistent with the Cinderella story. In a lot of versions, the stepmother dotes on and spoils her daughters, and in the ones where she has a favorite daughter and abuses the other daughter, the abused daughter is the nice one who's a little less awful to Cinderella. So there was no point in using the Cinderella story again other than giving Henry an iconic love interest.

The fairy tale that's really being used is Rapunzel, and there, the Enchanted Forest version was so tangential to either the fairy tale or Tangled that I think it would have muddled things a lot less to reuse it. While the Enchanted Forest Cinderella followed the fairy tale for the most part and had Ashley as a recurring character Henry knew, Rapunzel was a one-off that was in name only and Henry wouldn't have even known there was an Enchanted Forest Rapunzel.

With Alice, I think perhaps with that quip about how she visited a lot of places they may be suggesting that she isn't supposed to be a version of Alice in Wonderland and are just playing with those expectations, that not everyone is a fairy tale character. And that's where I think they could have done something interesting that would have fit with Henry and his concern over whether he ends up in a book. They could have made up entirely new characters who did fairy tale-type stuff, so that Henry found himself trying to figure out who they were, only to realize that there are a lot of people doing heroic deeds, breaking curses, and falling in love without ending up in a book.

Though it is odd that he's whining about not being worthy of Ella after he apparently has fought giants and been in jeopardy enough that being tied up is old news. What has she done other than plan to commit murder a couple of times without following through?

[KingOfHearts]

13 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The fairy tale that's really being used is Rapunzel, and there, the Enchanted Forest version was so tangential to either the fairy tale or Tangled that I think it would have muddled things a lot less to reuse it. While the Enchanted Forest Cinderella followed the fairy tale for the most part and had Ashley as a recurring character Henry knew, Rapunzel was a one-off that was in name only and Henry wouldn't have even known there was an Enchanted Forest Rapunzel.

You could have had Mother Gothel without creating an alternate Rapunzel. I don't think the original tower from 3B was built by Rapunzel's hallucinations, so you could say that someone else lived there before she did. Since there was no "witch" guarding her, you could still work her into the story. Lock up another random girl in there or do a "twist" and lock Mother Gothel herself up, as the show ended up doing in S7.

[Camera One]

I can just imagine you two in the Writers Room after they go "Wouldn't it be cool if we had other realms with other Cinderellas and other Rapunzels and another Lady Tremaine was actually Rapunzel who was locked in the Tower, and later on Mother Gothel was locked in the Tower and then another Alice in Wonderland was locked in the Tower..." for 6 hours, and then you point out that they could have done the exact same thing without creating that convoluted mess.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The Wish Realm doesn't bother me as much because it has a point of origin. There was a reason for its existence and why there's alternate versions of the characters. But, the Disenchanted Forest just exists. It's like playing the multiverse lottery and coming up with the exact combination that leads to the show's events and meet-ups.  The problem with that is there's nothing random about writing. Everything is predetermined, which makes it obvious that A&E are just lazy. Perhaps if the Disenchanted Forest was born from one of the Authors creating an AU, like Isaac did in the 4B finale, it would have some meaning. I still like the idea that it was all invented by Henry because he never found what he was looking for. (In reality, the princess he liked dumped him and he sucked at being a "hero".)

Edited April 15, 2018 by KingOfHearts