Past Seasons Talk: A Mystery Writer and NYC Detectives Solve Crimes

[madmaverick]

I thought the whole Sophia storyline was a bit of a retcon when I watched it.  Castle freely mentioned he 'knew a guy' in the CIA to a sceptical Beckett in S2, contacted him by some funny/weird coded message, and then shared details of how deadly his agent contact was, how he'd killed a guy with a melon baller (or was it ice cream scoop lol?), and how invaluable that agent had been with his research for some Storm book with her.  Didn't make sense to me that he could never tell Beckett about Sophia because of rules.  Btw, I really enjoyed that CIA agent character from S2.  More fun than Sophia if not as hot heh.  I remember him not being physically imposing but there being a funny scene where he scared off a uniform with his CIA glare and vanished magically at the end of his scene.  Loved how he'd read the Heat book pre-release and teased them about the sex scene.  I enjoyed the CIA stuff in that light-hearted approach in S2 than as deadly drama including betrayal by a once upon a time muse/lover.  To me, Castle spewing crazy CIA theories fit more in mind with someone who hadn't had such an in depth, inside look at the CIA as he apparently had with Sophia.  And I admit I don't really like the idea of there being another muse before Beckett whom he'd followed around as well.  

[pepper]

I thought the whole Sophia storyline was a bit of a retcon when I watched it.  Castle freely mentioned he 'knew a guy' in the CIA to a sceptical Beckett in S2, contacted him by some funny/weird coded message, and then shared details of how deadly his agent contact was, how he'd killed a guy with a melon baller (or was it ice cream scoop lol?), and how invaluable that agent had been with his research for some Storm book with her.  Didn't make sense to me that he could never tell Beckett about Sophia because of rules.  Btw, I really enjoyed that CIA agent character from S2.   

This. So much this. It was made exceedingly clear that this guy was his main, and implied only, CIA source, that for a few moments it took me out of what was a very enjoyable re-watch. But it makes sense. If someone who owns the DVDs forgot about that implication, there's no way a casual or typical viewer would remember or give a crap. So why let it get in the way of a potential storyline? Besides, Jennifer Beals. That is all...

[McManda]

Besides, Jennifer Beals. That is all...

 

The fact that Sophia was played by Jennifer Beals made her awesome for me ... and I was kind of sad she turned out to be a bad guy. I was kind of hoping she'd become someone on the same level of Jordan Shaw, except with the whole jealous-Beckett angle. :/

[verdana]

I liked Jennifer but loathed the reveal Sophia had been his muse too, it was like a stab in the gut, it felt as if they were stripping some of the magic away by doing that, I want them to feel special and unique to each other. May be that's irrational but that's how it is. I try and forget about that two parter. The CIA involvement didn't ring true either. It was like they were messing with his history unnecessarily just to create some short lived angst between Castle and Beckett.  I hated seeing Beckett upset and in turmoil over this with Shifty!Castle trying to duck and dive around it and her jealousy wasn't pleasant to watch either. Making Sophia a baddie seemed very predictable, I felt sorry for Castle that after Damian Westlake he has to suffer another person from his past that he had a close relationship with being a cold blooded murderer. 

 

I haven't rewatched season 6 much either; I'll usually watch Friends and Seinfeld reruns on TBS when Castle is airing on TNT. In fact, aside from listening to the commentaries on TGTBATB and Deep Cover, I haven't rewatched anything on my DVDs.

 

I didn't even get the S6 DVD I was that disgusted after the finale I can't face sitting through endless episodes of wedding planning thinking but they don't get bloody married do they Marlowe! Argh. 

Edited January 29, 2015 by verdana

[pepper]

I smiled reading this thread because my opinion falls about midway between McManda's and verdana's. I love Jennifer Beals and was disappointed that Sophia turned out to be a bad guy, but I didn't particularly like that her presence turned the Castle/Beckett interaction into a retread of something Castle had already done. True, it was established that Castle used the women he slept with as characters in his books, Paula-the-publicist got a chapter after all, but again (re-runs are providing TMI, I think!) Paula implied that writing a whole book based on one woman was a big deal. Did she not know it had been done before?!

[madmaverick]

I like Jennifer Beals too, but I wasn't sure what Marlowe & Co. were trying to accomplish with her character at that point in the Caskett relationship?  Get jealous, insecure Beckett into play?  Make her doubt her uniqueness to Castle and wonder if the spark they had would be extinguished once they'd slept together like in Sophia's case?  Show Castle being betrayed and fooled by someone close to him again?  None of that was what I wanted to see.  And I wish Beckett had asked Castle about what Sophia had meant to him instead of asking Sophia, a woman she'd just met!  They did the same with Meredith which also annoyed me.  I guess Marlowe just didn't want Caskett to have any conversations about relationships at that point. ;)  The saving grace to Beckett not being Castle's only muse (ugh) was that conversation at the end when he told her that Clara Strike ended up being more like her, fierce and kind etc.  That was a nice moment to show that Beckett was always Castle's ideal.  

Edited January 29, 2015 by madmaverick

[KaveDweller]

Paula-the-publicist got a chapter after all, but again (re-runs are providing TMI, I think!) Paula implied that writing a whole book based on one woman was a big deal. Did she not know it had been done before?!

 

I thought Clara Strike was just a minor character that appeared in the Derek Storm books, but that they were still mainly about Derek.  Has any one read the Storm novels they've actually published? Is Clara in them?

 

I guess Marlowe just didn't want Caskett to have any conversations about relationships at that point. ;)  The saving grace to Beckett not being Castle's only muse (ugh) was that conversation at the end when he told her that Clara Strike ended up being more like her, fierce and kind etc.  That was a nice moment to show that Beckett was always Castle's ideal. 

 

If they had a conversation about relationships at that point they would have had to have admitted their feelings and probably would have gotten together.  Or at least would have made the whole douchebag arc not really believable.   Which wouldn't have worked for how the writers wanted to end S4.

 

I didn't like him having a muse before either, but I did like that they established his bond with Beckett was stronger than what he had with Sophia.

[verdana]

I like Jennifer Beals too, but I wasn't sure what Marlowe & Co. were trying to accomplish with her character at that point in the Caskett relationship? Get jealous, insecure Beckett into play? Make her doubt her uniqueness to Castle and wonder if the spark they had would be extinguished once they'd slept together like in Sophia's case? Show Castle being betrayed and fooled by someone close to him again?

I presume they were going for the second option, she was used to magnify Kate's doubts and fears that if she took that final step she would become yet another one on the production line of muses he had used and everything they currently had would crumble. I thought they were ramming that point home especially in that convo with Sophia and Kate in the operations room and then with Beckett's comment to Castle when they get back to the precinct about joining the club (or something like that). And yeah thank God for the ending which reassured Beckett of her specialness. However, by the end credits I was left unsatisfied and annoyed by the whole thing it felt like an unnecessary diversion to avoid them having the proper talk they needed to but the writers wouldn't allow it.

That's part of the reason s4 is my least favourite, the characters couldn't talk to each other like grown adults for reasons that didn't make sense it felt contrived as time dragged on. Cops & Robbers was such a great feel good episode for them as a couple and I thought it provided the writers with the perfect springboard at that stage for them to finally open up to each other but instead they faffed around and things went downhill rapidly entertainment wise. There was Heartbreak Hotel, Cuffed, the Sophia business in a "let's save the world!" two parter and don't get me started on the douchebag arc...

Edited January 30, 2015 by verdana

[McManda]

I thought Clara Strike was just a minor character that appeared in the Derek Storm books, but that they were still mainly about Derek.  Has any one read the Storm novels they've actually published? Is Clara in them?

 

The Derek Storm novella I read (only the first one), I don't remember Clara Strike being in them. From what I remember the female in that novella was April Showers, and it was so eye-rollingly cringey that I had a hard time getting into the story.

 

But I'm the same way, I thought Clara Strike was a secondary character. I never really got the impression that Derek and Clara were just the precursor to Nikki and Rook.

 

I didn't really mind that Castle had a muse beforehand - if Sophia was even supposed to be a muse. He didn't write a story about a kickass female CIA agent after he spent time with her. He used her as inspiration for a female CIA agent that ended up playing a wrangler role to his protagonist. That's not really being a muse so much as a source of information, IMO.

[femmefan1946]

It doesn't bother me that Castle had a lot of lovers before he met Beckett, and a couple afterwards for that matter. I mean, he's an adult. He even had a baby with one of his many many women.

Nor does it bother me that Beckett has a similar track record, minus baby. I really don't understand why some fans insist her episodes with Demming and Dr. Motorcycle didn't go beyond hand holding and stolen kisses.

If some of Castle's 'know a guy's' turn out to be female, so what? And it's not as if he was cheating on Beckett before they even met. People of all genders like him, confide in him and teach him. And sometimes sleep over.

Young people today are so repressed. Sigh.

[KaveDweller]

It doesn't bother me that Castle had a lot of lovers before he met Beckett, and a couple afterwards for that matter. I mean, he's an adult. He even had a baby with one of his many many women.

 

There's a difference between having a lot of lovers and having another muse.  I don't care that they dated other people before they got together.  But Beckett being his muse was more that she inspired him to write when he was bored and blocked, and that what he felt for her was special compared to all those other people.  It doesn't have anything to do with sex.

 

It's kind of like how Beckett had dated other people but kept her walls up and Castle was the one who made her want to break them down.  He was special for her too.  Again, not because of sex, but because of their emotional connection.

Edited January 30, 2015 by KaveDweller

[McManda]

Nor does it bother me that Beckett has a similar track record, minus baby. I really don't understand why some fans insist her episodes with Demming and Dr. Motorcycle didn't go beyond hand holding and stolen kisses.

 

Wait, do people really believe that she never slept with Josh? They're sharing a bed together early in their relationship (well, what we saw of it, anyway). I think there's not really any debate there.

 

Demming is a different story; I think the argument could go both ways. I don't think they were together long enough to make assumptions one way or the other, especially because they had trouble making time for their dates to the point where they were getting dinner in the precinct. I'd buy the story that they never went all the way, or had planned their Memorial Day weekend as their first getaway.

 

I think that's why I like all the stories that piggybacked off the "what's your number" conversation from 4x10, just because I like to see what/who people think are previous relationships for each of them. It's an interesting argument.

[KaveDweller]

Demming is a different story; I think the argument could go both ways. I don't think they were together long enough to make assumptions one way or the other, especially because they had trouble making time for their dates to the point where they were getting dinner in the precinct.

 

I assumed she and Demming had slept together because of the way she told Castle she thought it would be awkward to tell him she and Tom were "together."  "Together" seemed like code for having sex, because he'd already known they had gone on a date.  But I also never thought she and Royce were sleeping together, and apparently mostly people did.  So, some stuff is up for interpretation.  I'd actually like to see a conversation like the "what's your number" one now that they are together.  Not because I care what those numbers are, I just think it would be an interesting scene.

[oberon55]

 To me, Castle spewing crazy CIA theories fit more in mind with someone who hadn't had such an in depth, inside look at the CIA as he apparently had with Sophia.  And I admit I don't really like the idea of there being another muse before Beckett whom he'd followed around as well.  

 

It's not near as funny after we found out he was in some sort of a relationship with an agent that ended up being a traitor & tried to execute him. Then they follow up with his daughter being kidnapped and him finding out the reason dear ole dad wasn't in the picture was all because of spy shit. I think at this point that Castle has had a belly full of the CIA.

[S55]

I thought Clara Strike was just a minor character that appeared in the Derek Storm books, but that they were still mainly about Derek.  Has any one read the Storm novels they've actually published? Is Clara in them?

 

 

She appears more in the later/more recently published Derek Storm books. She's also prominent in the first graphic novel published from his Derek Storm series (which we were reminded of in Linchpin when Clara's at Castle's loft looking at the graphic novel). 

[verdana]

I cringed at the "what's your number" conversation it seemed forced, it felt weird for Castle to be asking her as if it even mattered or that he should suddenly care to ask. I can't imagine him asking any of the women in his life that. I was relieved when she brushed him off. 

 

How many lovers they had before they met each other is immaterial to me and it's not something I need to find out any time in the near future. I can't believe that no one thought she didn't go any further than the holding hands stage with Josh though...heh.

 

As for Demming I thought they hadn't done the deed yet and his offer at a weekend(?) away was going to be the start of things getting serious but this one is open to debate I don't think the Josh situation is. 

 

I didn't realise that a lot of people thought she had slept with Royce. I've always assumed he was her mentor only and may be if he'd been the type he could have taken advantage of that as she was young and obviously looked up to him a great deal but he was a decent bloke and didn't because of her obvious vulnerability. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by verdana

[KaveDweller]

I cringed at the "what's your number" conversation it seemed forced, it felt weird for Castle to be asking her as if it even mattered or that he should suddenly care to ask. I can't imagine him asking any of the women in his life that. I was relieved when she brushed him off. 

 

How many lovers they had before they met each other is immaterial to me and it's not something I need to find out any time in the near future. I can't believe that no one thought she didn't go any further than the holding hands stage with Josh though...heh.

 

As for Demming I thought they hadn't done the deed yet and his offer at a weekend(?) away was going to be the start of things getting serious but this one is open to debate I don't think the Josh situation is. 

 

I didn't realise that a lot of people thought she had slept with Royce. I've always assumed he was her mentor only and may be if he'd been the type he could have taken advantage of that as she was young and obviously looked up to him a great deal but he was a decent bloke and didn't because of her obvious vulnerability. 

 

I've read like a zillion fan fics where it happens.  Or rather, Beckett telling Castle it happened in the past, not actual stories about the big event.

[McManda]

Royce is always a wildcard, it seems to me. Either she loved him in almost hero worship/mentor way and it never went anywhere, or they were having some sort of affair that never really progressed into a relationship. Never do they ever have an actual relationship.

 

Demming is also a question mark and could go either way. I see arguments for both.

 

Josh and Sorenson are both no brainers, I think.

 

And then there are men gleaned from her past - maybe the clove-smelling grunge rocker, maybe some one-night stand or two around when her mom was killed, maybe someone else, but there's always at least one or two before Sorenson (probably rightly, IMO).

 

I don't think they need to have that conversation on the show (do couples really do that?), but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious. I guess it'll forever be a mystery.

[pepper]

I never even thought of Demming as a wildcard. What grown woman says she's "together" with a man when she hasn't slept with him? What did they do, exchange vows to go steady?! But I think this goes back to my comments on the "Unpopular Opinions" thread about television and female sexuality: Castle can bounce around on the bed with his ex-wife and refer to having sex, but Beckett's sex life is all about the euphemisms, so that those who are uncomfortable with seeing her as a sexual being can spin the unlikely tale that she was Snow White waiting for Castle to awaken her sexual desires.

[KaveDweller]

But I think this goes back to my comments on the "Unpopular Opinions" thread about television and female sexuality: Castle can bounce around on the bed with his ex-wife and refer to having sex, but Beckett's sex life is all about the euphemisms, so that those who are uncomfortable with seeing her as a sexual being can spin the unlikely tale that she was Snow White waiting for Castle to awaken her sexual desires.

 

I once saw someone try and argue that Castle never slept with Jacinda.  It's not only about women not being sexual.

 

I think when you're talking about their past, it is more an issue of Castle and Beckett's character.  Castle was presented as a guy who got around a lot and had a lot of one night stands.  Beckett was initally presented as someone who was in a bit of a dry spell romance wise, but someone who was more into actual relationships.  Isn't that why she turned Castle down in the pilot? That's not the same as being uncomfortable with her having lots of sex.  We also learned she was more wild in her youth, and she's always been presented as someone who is into sex.

 

The other thing is, I don't like to think Beckett slept with Royce or Espo (as some people think too) because once you have her sleeping with every single guy she's

ever worked with it's harder to take her seriously as a professional.  I'd say the same about a guy.  I am all for women having a healthy sex life, but I also hate when any time a male and female have a bond sex is thrown into question.  I do believe in male/female friendships, especially when they are professionally based.  Being comfortable with sex doesn't have to equal sex happening at every possible moment, does it?

 

I don't think they need to have that conversation on the show (do couples really do that?), but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't curious. I guess it'll forever be a mystery.

 

I don't think they need to show a conversation like that, I would just enjoy it.  I like to fill in backstories for characters in my head, so hearing them reveal actual details/facts about the past is fun.  I like to see if they fit with what I made up.

[verdana]

But how many people when asked (and I still struggle with why people need to know this information from their partners) give an honest answer? I bet many lie and increase or downgrade depending on how they think the other person will react. If they did get Castle and Beckett talking about past lovers it would probably cause no end of grief amongst the fandom.

As for Jacinda I don't think he slept with her, they could have had a brief fling but I don't believe he was mentally ready to take that step. I don't see any concrete proof he did and it should be taken as fact. Beckett could have slept with Hunt but I don't think she did that either but you'll have fans swearing she did. Marlowe deliberately leaves things vague when it comes to a lot of their former relationships. He's happy to let fans wonder and make up their own minds. Probably for the best, of the ones we know of already the only ones I've ever been interested in knowing more details on is Castle's two exes as they were significant relationships and shaped him in different ways.

[KaveDweller]

But how many people when asked (and I still struggle with why people need to know this information from their partners) give an honest answer?

 

Well Castle isn't realistic about anything else, so why worry about that here?

 

I don't believe he was mentally ready to take that step. I don't see any concrete proof he did and it should be taken as fact

 

I didn't say it was fact, I was just pointing out that Beckett wasn't the only one where people questioned whether sex occurred in a relationship.  

[madmaverick]

I kind of wanted to laugh when Beckett asked Castle in the wedding episode whether he remembered Will Sorenson.  Of course, he remembered Will Sorenson.  (Still the only guy who knows that Beckett once lined up to get Castle's book signed?  If so, that's just sad.)  I'll bet Castle remembers every man that's crossed her path and had a romantic (or pseudo romantic) relationship with her, and vice-versa.  (But let no 3rd party from TS&TQ be ever mentioned again, please!)

 

Remember when Beckett mocked Castle for coming into the precinct with his 'just got laid' face back in S2?  I wonder if he still comes in with that face now that he's married to Beckett lol.

 

Royce and Esposito are icky for me as ex-lovers and I prefer not to contemplate those possibilities whatsover.  Same with Hunt and Jacinda for obvious reasons.

[GeorgieNY]

I'm bewildered by the idea that there are people who think Beckett could have slept with Hunt. When??

[verdana]

I still don't get why she was happy to tell Sorenson about getting Castle's book signed so easily but has never yet seen fit to tell the man himself.

It's not the be all and end all if it never happens but I find it strange the writers never thought it would be something they could include in a tender moment once they got together. Almost feels too late now to bother, another opportunity gone begging to have a meaningful exchange.

Lot of fanfic has it happening, some of the stories are lovely without being sickly sweet.

[verdana]

GeorgieNY. Yes there are fans around who think she did the deed with Mr Awful English Accent. When she accepted his offer for drinks and then presumably headed back to his hotel in depression over Castle. It would have had to have been a quickie though as he was flying back to the UK that same night from what I can remember!

[S55]

I'm bewildered by the idea that there are people who think Beckett could have slept with Hunt. When??

 

I'd guess some folks presume they might have slept together after she calls him to go out for a drink at the end of the episode. I'm more inclined to think Castle might have slept with Jacinda than Beckett slept with Hunt, though I can believe they could have kissed after some drinks. Though, even then, in my head, that's because Hunt initiated it. 

[GeorgieNY]

Ohhhh! THAT guy. Yeah, I could see that as a remote possibility. Hilariously I was thinking of Jackson Hunt..... Icky!!!!!!!!

[verdana]

Madmaverick. Fat chance of Castle walking in these days with a 'just got laid' face. Now it's more likely a 'shit I just got interrupted again' look the boys joke about.

Oh S55 beat me to it.

Jesus and Mary not that one lol. I feel a bit queasy now you've put that pairing in my mind.

Edited January 31, 2015 by verdana

[GeorgieNY]

Madmaverick. Fat chance of Castle walking in these days with a 'just got laid' face. Now it's more likely a 'shit I just got interrupted again' look the boys joke about.

Oh S55 beat me to it.

Jesus and Mary not that one lol. I feel a bit queasy now you've put that pairing in my mind.

Yeah. See why I was like "huh??" Sorry!

[madmaverick]

Brain bleach, please.  Feel more than a bit queasy at that pairing!!  Especially now that I remember those dumb rumours about Jackson Hunt being into Beckett from some interview with Brolin.  Don't know if that fed into those even stupider rumours about Brolin being into Stana.

 

I still don't get why she was happy to tell Sorenson about getting Castle's book signed so easily but has never yet seen fit to tell the man himself.

 

 

Well, she did tell him in a dream/alternate reality/figment of Castle's imagination.  Does that count? ;)  It probably does for the writers.

 

Fat chance of Castle walking in these days with a 'just got laid' face. Now it's more likely a 'shit I just got interrupted again' look the boys joke about.

 

Now I'm thinking of a "shit I just got used and abused by the boys again" face.  When I rewatched the wild west episode, I noticed that Ryan actually chucked Castle's wallet in his face after demanding he hand it over and he took money out of it as reimbursement for supposed wedding tuxedo rentals.  To add insult to injury!  Or should it be injury to insult in this case?  Either way, that's just rude.

Edited January 31, 2015 by madmaverick

[KaveDweller]

I still don't get why she was happy to tell Sorenson about getting Castle's book signed so easily but has never yet seen fit to tell the man himself.

 

I originally assumed she was with Will when she went to the book signing, so he just knew she had gone.  Not that she confessed it to him or anything.  But the timing for that may be off, we don't know when exactly she and Will broke up.

 

Hilariously I was thinking of Jackson Hunt..... Icky!!!!!!!!

 

Ew.  That is all I can say about that.

 

Well, she did tell him in a dream/alternate reality/figment of Castle's imagination.  Does that count? ;)  It probably does for the writers.

 

Probably.  If anyone ever asks them they'll say it happened in the AU and having it happen again in the normal universe would be repetitive.

[verdana]

madmaverick. Yeah I remember the wallet incident, that was bad, you just don't do that to people - friend or not. I don't know why they do this kind of thing, for laughs? The boys relationship with Castle needs to stop hitting the same duff notes. The playful, genuinely friendly teasing and warm camaraderie of the past has been replaced with often bullying , charmless behaviour.

Oh yeah the AU, forgot that scene, oh well that's it then.

Edited February 1, 2015 by verdana

[pepper]

Just re-watched the episode about the female singer Alexis liked who was murdered. In it, Castle tries to "traditional parent" Alexis by suggesting parental controls on her use of the Internet and she tells him that she was the one who put parental controls on him. She also lectures him in front of his NYPD friends in a way that, if she were to do it now, would have had me up in arms at how obnoxious she was being. Yet I don't remember being annoyed at the time. So I'm starting to think that her getting on my nerves isn't because she's changed, but because they have replayed that same note until it grates.

 

Or it could be that in the episode she was also made to appear vulnerable and open/child-like in addition to being an obnoxious know-it-all, so it balanced out, whereas now, she acts like an independent young adult the rest of the time, so obnoxious doesn't get a pass.

 

I'd be interested in other people's views on the subject.

[KaveDweller]

Or it could be that in the episode she was also made to appear vulnerable and open/child-like in addition to being an obnoxious know-it-all, so it balanced out, whereas now, she acts like an independent young adult the rest of the time, so obnoxious doesn't get a pass.

 

I'd be interested in other people's views on the subject.

 

I remember the episode, but not the specific lecture she gave him.  Was that the one where she pulled him into the interrogation room to say she's a good kid who doesn't get drunk/high and he needs to stop worrying?

 

I didn't used to get annoyed by Alexis.  I didn't really like her in the pilot, but thought she ended up being a good character after that, and enjoyed her interactions with Castle.  But I tend to be bothered by her now.  I agree it's because we no longer have that balance of seeing her as a young/innocent kid and so her scenes don't come off as a kid being precocious and mature beyond her years.  She just comes off as an adult who criticizes her dad a lot.

 

I think the other problem is that her scenes feel awkward because she's older and doesn't have as many reasons to be at home, and Castle doesn't have as much of a parenting role.  They just sort of shoe-horn her in there to get her contractually obligated appearance in and that biases me against her.

[verdana]

KavedDweller nailed the Alexis situation.

 

The only difference for me is that I did like her in the pilot but the Pi arc was a disaster for the character, I never got over the way she was written, such a shame it only they had handled that story better. 

 

I don't remember the lecture, I know she was there at the precinct when she should have been at school and she overheard what was going on and tried to help out and Castle sent her away eventually. I do remember that interview room scene KaveDweller mentions and I thought Castle deserved it. Wasn't that the time was he phoned up her school to investigate her hot looking violin teacher who was coming around to the house? Can't remember the episode. She tore him off a strip then! Oh boy. Although I did feel a bit sorry for him but he screwed up in going behind her back when she had given no obvious reason for him to be worried which was asking for grief. 

 

I wish I could go back to liking Alexis again rather than being exasperated more often than not by her (forced) appearances. 

Edited February 4, 2015 by verdana

[amensisterfriend]

What do people think of S5 overall? I've been catching up with some episodes on TNT and am actually really liking it. I'm not a Castle/Beckett 'shipper, but it's such a relief to have them finally together rather dealing with another season of more contrived "when will they finally get together?!" angst and pointless love interests. I've only seen the first third or so, but Murder He Wrote, Probable Cause and The Final Frontier all entertained me tremendously. I'm normally not a Beckett fan by any stretch, but I kind of love that she's a diehard sci-fi fan :) 

[verdana]

The fact Kate modelled briefly when she was younger is well known so I don't know why anyone would say that it was rewrite of history. However, the writers seemed a bit fuzzy on the timeline of when and how long she modelled for when they had the episode where she meets up with the magazine editor but that's no surprise, Kate's younger years and what she got up to and when seem to be a bit of a moveable feast. 

[femmefan1946]

The season six closing episode turned up on Space Channel yesterday and I watched it again.

If it were not for the final few minutes, it's actually fun.

I'm willing to handwave the 'didn't know she was married for 15 years and neither did the FBI security check' , so I just concentrated on the fluffy silly plot. And it was fun, more twists and switchbacks than the Wild Mouse at the CNE, fast pacing, LIGHTBULBS!, interesting characters, some pretty sentiment from the supporting cast, a lovely wedding dress, NF in a tux that fit....

 

aaand then....

 

I really hope that Castle will drop all the angsty, sombre, serious stories and just go for fluff. I like silly plots with banter

 

and lightbulbs.

[zen415]

 

The season six closing episode turned up on Space Channel yesterday and I watched it again.

If it were not for the final few minutes, it's actually fun.

I'm willing to handwave the 'didn't know she was married for 15 years and neither did the FBI security check' , so I just concentrated on the fluffy silly plot

 

I hate this episode and this plot with a passion. It rivals my Lorelai-sleeps-with-Christopher-in-season-6-Gilmore-Grils-finale hatred. I hated that Beckett was suddenly married for 15 years. It ruins the whole history of the character for me and it screws up the "one and done". I almost did not watch season 7 because of that and even then, my enjoyment of the show seriously decreased since that awful plot. After months of lackluster wedding planning, that was just the cherry on top of a crappy season.

 

I actually expected something to happen that would prevent the wedding so the car crash, I could have dealt with if it would have been a decent wedding episode before. However, the fact that the car crash was crappily dealt with in Season 7 doesn't help.

 

I actually think season 7 is much better than season 6 but man did that episode ruined my enjoyment of Castle. 

[readster]

This episode, season 7 premiere episode and Sleeper are really the three episodes to this date that I hate with a passion because they are so hacked eyed, contrived and you can even tell the actors are trying to sell the story. They are designed to be nothing more than: "Keep Castle and Beckett apart" episodes. The writers even admit it now they were designed to keep the wedding from happening and they let that define both seasons. Season 7 is head and shoulders above season 6 but wow! There are so many times the characters have to be so dumb about things not just Castle and Beckett but from Espo to Ryan to Lainie. Don't get me started on 3XK making "clones" to steal all evidence from the police. At least those episodes were creepy and well acted but it plays outside of comic book villain writing to bad cartoon writing because the writers simply did their best to force the issue because they didn't like it. It's what they wanted, not the fans or even the actors, they felt: "We don't like this so we are going to make everyone a moron and use the magic of tech to make it work. Because we will have the Moonlighting Curse!" 

[zen415]

 

I really hope that Castle will drop all the angsty, sombre, serious stories and just go for fluff. I like silly plots with banter

 

and lightbulbs.

 

I think it depends. I loved Veritas even if it was a dramatic episode but I thought Dreamland (or this season's Sleeper) was horrible. Boom is the episode I caught on Space and got me hooked.

 

 

It's what they wanted, not the fans or even the actors, they felt: "We don't like this so we are going to make everyone a moron and use the magic of tech to make it work. Because we will have the Moonlighting Curse!"

 

Funny that I enjoy them so much more now that they are married than when they were engaged. Maybe instead of thinking of the Moonlighthing curse they should focus on better writing?

 

It reminds me that I started watching Castle on Space, everyday and was quickly hooked. I loved Seasons 1-3. I did not mind the first part of Seasons 4-5 but I thought the 2nd part of both these seasons was only ok. I only started watching weekly at Season 6, which sucked. I am wondering if I would have liked Seasons 4-5 as much if I would have been stuck watching only one episode per week. I'm wondering if the binge-watching helps?

 

Also, I liked how tidbits were revealed every episode about the characters and that it got deeper. I think that's what is so disappointing about latter seasons: instead of going further with these tidbits to get full-fledged characters, they only glossed over some major issues.

 

And they still can be great as demonstrated by some awesome latter seasons' episodes. I just wish they would be more consistent.

[readster]

 

Funny that I enjoy them so much more now that they are married than when they were engaged. Maybe instead of thinking of the Moonlighthing curse they should focus on better writing?

 

 That should be on a sign on anyone who writes on a show. I have heard so many TV shows from Gilmore Girls to CSI saying: "We don't want to have the Moonlighting Curse so we don't want to put certain characters together." It is like forever branded as why TV creators don't want to put couples together despite the flow of stories and so forth. Even if the "Moonlighting Curse was really the fault of the actors not liking each other, writer's strike that year and having their budget hurt. They constantly said the show went wrong when they put their main characters together. When tons of people have said: "It was not because you put them together on the show!" Yet its a constant excuse and it should be more: "You should focus on better writer." Yet, it continues almost 30 years later as an excuse for almost all shows. 

[verdana]

I hate this episode and this plot with a passion. It rivals my Lorelai-sleeps-with-Christopher-in-season-6-Gilmore-Grils-finale hatred. I hated that Beckett was suddenly married for 15 years. It ruins the whole history of the character for me and it screws up the "one and done". I almost did not watch season 7 because of that and even then, my enjoyment of the show seriously decreased since that awful plot. After months of lackluster wedding planning, that was just the cherry on top of a crappy season.

 

Same here, I hate what they did to Beckett over that Rogan bullshit. Even worse I can't watch any more what was one of my favourite episodes ever - Nanny McDead - because they've fucked that up too because of that scene where she says to Rick she's never been married etc. I will forever be pissed at MilMar for that travesty, made a million times worse by AM's comments (he wanted to "take her down a peg" or two, who would actively choose to do something like that? Urgh!) which further rubbed salt into an already gaping wound. If I'd been Stana Katic I'd have been so pissed off at what they did there to a character she so obviously cares about just for zany "fun". 

 

After that my feelings on the show changed and my enthusiasm never quite returned in the same way, I still watch every week but I don't trust TPTB not to pull the rug out whenever they please and I won't give them the benefit of the doubt, they blew it. You have to give the fans one positive thing in a finale if you intend to pull a stunt like that yet MilMar not only refused to throw a bone out they actually rubbed the fans faces further in the dirt just to make sure they got the message - we call the shots and don't give a shit. Screw you all.  

 

I actually think season 7 is much better than season 6 but man did that episode ruined my enjoyment of Castle.

 

 

Season 7 has been a disappointment but I find it's slightly better than season 6 only because I haven't been forced to sit through boring wedding planning almost every episode that went nowhere. The annoying mythology almost tips the balance into making it worse but not quite since it only took up 3 episodes. 

 

It reminds me that I started watching Castle on Space, everyday and was quickly hooked. I loved Seasons 1-3. I did not mind the first part of Seasons 4-5 but I thought the 2nd part of both these seasons was only ok. I only started watching weekly at Season 6, which sucked. I am wondering if I would have liked Seasons 4-5 as much if I would have been stuck watching only one episode per week. I'm wondering if the binge-watching helps?

 

 

Felt the same way about S4-S5, I loved S1-S3 but the writing got increasingly patchy from S5 onwards.  I much prefer binge watching, I've watched other shows and played catch up after losing track and I enjoy them far more when I can just watch one after another every day and any crappy episodes or bad story arcs get immediately forgotten by watching the next one, I don't have time to dwell on things or get annoyed, it's great. It was hell during the back end of S4 during the "douchebag" arc (from 47 seconds to Undead Again) when they had one episode then a break of a week then another one, then a break of about two weeks and fans were going up the wall over the angst between Castle and Beckett and there was a lot of infighting in the fandom which was terrible. People were taking sides and things got very nasty and then on top of that fans were desperate by that point to know were the writers going to bow to the pressure and get them together. I never want to go through anything like that again on this show angst wise which is why I'm terrified of them having marital problems if the writers get desperate because all hell will break loose if that happens. 

 

 

[readster]

Season 4 would have gone better if they didn't drag out Kate lying about not remembering what Castle said and then bringing it up because a kid lied about not knowing why he picked up a backpack. Especially, when she knew that Castle was most likely watching then his reaction to it and everyone supporting his anger on it made it worst. My problem was then the reveal of Bracken in season 5. Did it make sense he was the guy with the power to do everything he did and why Kate's mother was killed in the first place? Sure, it made a lot of sense. However, as they revealed more and more in season 5 and then his final take down in season 6. Things started to not make any sense, the blackmail with the police files, the hidden tape in Kate's white elephants. Why the three cops were so willing to fall on their own swords because "they were protecting their families." and these former military men so loyal to say: "You can never touch him." Even the entire cornering with discrediting the mayor made no sense or how the lawyer just magically appeared to stop the assistant from saying: "Its this Senator, Bracken is name."  It all rang false and they even admitted they were out of ideas but had this back up plan to end it if they couldn't. Unlike the Castle "mythology" where they had no plan but: "keep them from getting married." Much like season 4 was: "Do whatever to keep Castle and Beckett from getting together." Amazing how scared they were because they aren't in truth, good writers when it comes to relationships. I mean Espo and Lanie spun in circles and then a cut scene was that Lainie was the one who doesn't want to settle. Yet, she complains about it all the time. Whatever. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by readster

[KaveDweller]

Season 4 would have gone better if they didn't drag out Kate lying about not remembering what Castle said and then bringing it up because a kid lied about not knowing why he picked up a backpack. Especially, when she knew that Castle was most likely watching then his reaction to it and everyone supporting his anger on it made it worst.

Why would she think Castle was most likely watching? He wasn't there when she went into the interrogation, I think it makes sense she wouldn't have known he come in. He was gone by the time she came out (even though she saw a cup of coffee on her desk, but nothing ever happened with that). But I can see why she said it in the interrogation. I actually liked the episodes where that all played out, I just wished we got more of Kate reacting to Castle's secret. They had that huge fight about it then it was never mentioned again.

I agree they ended up making Bracken too powerful though.

[oberon55]

Season 4 would have gone better if they didn't drag out Kate lying about not remembering what Castle said and then bringing it up because a kid lied about not knowing why he picked up a backpack.

 

 I always felt Beckett's lie was forced & contrived. I never bought her reason for lying or Castle's dumbass conclusions & behavior when he learned about it. Its only purpose was to ignore Castle's confession of love. Castle's secret on the other hand seemed more in character for both of them. I could see Castle trying to protect her (he is arrogant enough to think he knows best) & her reaction was also in character. Of course she would feel betrayed. Especially after finding out that Montgomery was involved all these years. It was believable that she would feel like she could not trust anyone. The season would have been better without any lies or secrets. But of the two I prefer Castle's.

Edited April 29, 2015 by oberon55

[verdana]

Season 4 would have gone better if they didn't drag out Kate lying about not remembering what Castle said and then bringing it up because a kid lied about not knowing why he picked up a backpack. Especially, when she knew that Castle was most likely watching then his reaction to it and everyone supporting his anger on it made it worst.

 

Yeah S4 was tainted by the secrets and lies saga which got dragged out far too long and I admit I got mostly fed up with Beckett more than Castle as the months ticked by with no sign she had any intention of confessing and was content to let things carry as they were (the sessions with Dr Burke quickly dried up at least the on screen ones). Then there's Castle hanging on looking increasingly weak willed and spineless, meanwhile he's sitting on this ticking time bomb too. I hate the way they did the reveal and then made him look like a little boy having a hissy fit when I should have felt sorry for him. Then they had to make both of them behave like stupid teenagers who can't talk to each other suddenly for no valid reason whatsoever other than oh but we can't have them get together yet and it's like arrrrrgh!  That entire arc was a sign of things to come in hindsight in that it showed how incapable they are of writing these two in a sympathetic and realistic way when it comes to the complexities of a mature relationship where you have issues that need resolving and you face up to them, it requires proper communication not superficial exchanges and loads of subtext.

 

Agree with KaveDweller about the lack of screen time given over to Castle's secret when it came out, Beckett didn't really get any time to react to it properly. 

Edited April 29, 2015 by verdana

[readster]

 I always felt Beckett's lie was forced & contrived. I never bought her reason for lying or Castle's dumbass conclusions & behavior when he learned about it. Its only purpose was to ignore Castle's confession of love. Castle's secret on the other hand seemed more in character for both of them. I could see Castle trying to protect her (he is arrogant enough to think he knows best) & her reaction was also in character. Of course she would feel betrayed. Especially after finding out that Montgomery was involved all these years. It was believable that she would feel like she could not trust anyone. The season would have been better without any lies or secrets. But of the two I prefer Castle's.

 

I agree with that, I can completely understand why Castle kept the secret, same with Smith. Of course, we never truly found out what Montgomery did for him. Also, how the military hitman found out who Smith was came to the point in the 5th season when Castle and Beckett tracked him down. The guy can make it so doctors can fake his death as revealed in season 6 but he can't keep himself hidden and instead of copying the real file for the bomb trap. He instead put the real one in place of it. What was he hoping? That Bracken himself was going to get the file and blow himself up?

[verdana]

Yeah out of the crappy secrets game I understood why Castle kept his and sympathised more even though it was very wrong to make that decision on her behalf. Ideally I would have liked them to simply move forward after her shooting having acknowledged that yeah he loved her and she knew it and had them come together after Cops & Robbers when I thought both were genuinely in a good place emotionally at that point.