House Targaryen: Fire And Blood

[Rhondinella]

Here's a thread to discuss the whole Targaryen family and lineage, or parts of it, instead of individual members thereof.  

[ambi76]

Viserys was the Mad King's grandson and he was not immune to fire. Dany said it herself after Drogo killed him with the molten crown.

 

No, no, no. Viserys is Aerys son like Dany is his daughter. Seven hells, they need to put up a Targ family tree like before every episode.

 

Targ generations on the show:

 

(I) Maester Aemon (abdicated in favor of his younger brother), Aegon V ----> (II) Aerys II (Mad King), Rhaella (his sister wife) -----> (III) Rhaegar, Viserys, Dany ------> (IV) Rhaegar's two kids with Elia Martell (killed by the Mountain), Dany's stillborn son.

 

The relative ages are so strange (i.e. Dany is younger than all her nephews and nieces by Rhaegar) because the Mad King and his wife didn't have another child for approx. 20 years after Rhaegar.

Edited June 12, 2014 by ambi76

[Lady S.]

Perhaps the reason we never see any physical defects to the Targ inbreeding is because they had a policy of secret infanticide for any deformed babies who came out of the womb alive, there have could have been half a dozen two-headed babies in between Rhaegar and Viserys. I'm not really staking anything on this theory, but the age difference is pretty weird otherwise.

[WearyTraveler]

Can someone remind me what the show has said about Aegon the Conqueror?

[Lady S.]

If you mean that Aegon married both of his sisters, it's in the viewers' guide. On the show, I remember Jorah saying that Aegon conquered six of the seven kingdoms, Tywin saying his dragon burned Harrenhal, Arya saying his sisters and their dragons helped in his conquest of Westeros, and Stannis saying he built the painted table map of Westeros on Dragonstone.

[WearyTraveler]

If you mean that Aegon married both of his sisters, it's in the viewers' guide. On the show, I remember Jorah saying that Aegon conquered six of the seven kingdoms, Tywin saying his dragon burned Harrenhal, Arya saying his sisters and their dragons helped in his conquest of Westeros, and Stannis saying he built the painted table map of Westeros on Dragonstone.

 

Thank you! I asked because I wanted to know if the show had addressed that aside from marrying their siblings, the Targaryens were also allowed to have multiple spouses.  And I wanted to confirm that so that I could address an earlier comment here saying that even if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son he would still be a bastard.

 

That could be true, unless Rhaegar married Lyanna before she gave birth, in which case Jon wouldn't be a bastard, and according to Westeros' succession laws would have a better claim that Dany. 

[ambi76]

I'm not really staking anything on this theory, but the age difference is pretty weird otherwise.

There is obviously a book canon explanation for this if you want to know:

Aerys and Rhaella hated each others guts and did just do their duty with Rhaegar. When Aerys later became more and more unstable he started to rape Rhaella again, Viserys and Dany ensued.

Edited June 12, 2014 by ambi76

[Constantinople]

Can someone remind me what the show has said about Aegon the Conqueror?

 

 

If you mean that Aegon married both of his sisters, it's in the viewers' guide. On the show, I remember Jorah saying that Aegon conquered six of the seven kingdoms, Tywin saying his dragon burned Harrenhal, Arya saying his sisters and their dragons helped in his conquest of Westeros, and Stannis saying he built the painted table map of Westeros on Dragonstone.

 

And when Shireen was teaching her friend the Onion Knight how to read, she told him that the Aeg in Aegon is pronounced like the word egg

[Maximum Taco]

There is obviously a book canon explanation for this if you want to know:

Aerys and Rhaella hated each others guts and did just do their duty with Rhaegar. When Aerys later became more and more unstable he started to rape Rhaella again, Viserys and Dany ensued.

 

Not only that:

He only raped Rhaella after he had finished executing someone by burning them alive.  He needed the fire to get hard. I guess he only did that sometimes and not super frequently, that's why Viserys wasn't born until much later.

[SoWindsor]

Not only that:

He only raped Rhaella after he had finished executing someone by burning them alive.  He needed the fire to get hard. I guess he only did that sometimes and not super frequently, that's why Viserys wasn't born until much later.

Will this reveal anything to happen in the future/books or is it historical/background info?

[Maximum Taco]

Will this reveal anything to happen in the future/books or is it historical/background info?

 

Historical, just more background on why there is such a disparity in the ages of Rhaegar and Viserys/Daenerys.

[SoWindsor]

Ok so is it?

Master Aemon ____(sibling) ____ Aegon ---- (wife) ---- Rhaella

I

I

Elia Martell (wife)---- Rhaegar ___ (sibling) ____ Viserys (sibling) ___Danerys

I

I

(Issue killed by Mountain)

Oy....the formatting got all messed up.

Edited June 12, 2014 by SoWindsor

[Maximum Taco]

Ok so is it?

Master Aemon ____(sibling) ____ Aegon ---- (wife) ---- Rhaella

I

I

Elia Martell (wife)---- Rhaegar ___ (sibling) ____ Viserys (sibling) ___Danerys

I

I

(Issue killed by Mountain)

Oy....the formatting got all messed up.

 

You're slightly off.

 

Aegon was not married to Rhaella. His son Aerys II (The Mad King) was married to Rhaella.

 

Rhaegar, Viserys and Daenerys are the children of Aerys II, not of Aegon.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[coppersin]

Here's a family tree. Scroll to the bottom for Dany and co.

Edit: Yikes, sorry to anyone I spoiled. So used to using the spoiler threads, I completely blanked. Sorry!

 

Mod Note: This family tree includes characters from the books not mentioned on the show. Click at your own risk.

Edited June 12, 2014 by coppersin
To clarify whether the info is spoilery or not to non readers.

[Maximum Taco]

Here's a family tree. Scroll to the bottom for Dany and co.

 

That's a book family tree.

 

It's not accurate for the show, they've changed some things. Also it has some significant spoilers.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note: When creating linked text please be considerate of unspoiled members, so as part of the post, inform whether the information linked to contains book information/spoilers or is show only info.

 

Thank you

[SoWindsor]

Why did Viserys die from fire if he is a Targaryen? Or is that a spoiler?

[Maximum Taco]

Why did Viserys die from fire if he is a Targaryen? Or is that a spoiler?

 

It's not really a spoiler. It's not really addressed directly in the books, and I believe GRRM answered this question in an interview or comic-con panel or something. It doesn't spoil any future plotlines, but I'll tag it anyway cause it's not discoverable from just watching the show.

 

GRRM has said that what happened to Dany when the dragons were born is a one time deal. Targaryens do not have a natural immunity to fire and that includes Daenerys, she was just immune to fire at that moment due to magic, essentially.

 

The following are minor book spoilers, that also do not spoil future plotlines.

Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan died in a fire, despite being Targaryens, and later on in the series Dany gets blisters on her hands from getting too close to dragonfire.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

Merely being a Targaryen doesn't = fireproof. As evidenced by Viserys' demise :)

As Joffrey pointed out to Margarey whilst giving her a tour of the Sept of Baelor (S3E04), "Over there in that urn, the ashes of Aerion Targaryen. Aerion Brightflame they called him. He thought drinking wildfire would turn him into a dragon: he was wrong."

[Maximum Taco]

Merely being a Targaryen doesn't = fireproof. As evidenced by Viserys' demise :)

As Joffrey pointed out to Margarey whilst giving her a tour of the Sept of Baelor (S3E04), "Over there in that urn, the ashes of Aerion Targaryen. Aerion Brightflame they called him. He thought drinking wildfire would turn him into a dragon: he was wrong."

 

I was always curious about Aerion Brightflame's demise.

 

They say he died from drinking wildfire, but that doesn't necessarily mean he burst into flames does it? From what we know about wildfire it needs a spark to start burning. I mean I would die from drinking gasoline and nobody would need to set it on fire.

 

I guess saying his ashes are in the urn clears it up a bit, but it seems that a lot of families support cremation as a means of body disposal, I'm almost positive the Targaryens would, so it's still not certain.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

@Maximum Taco I viewed it at it as having a similar effect to spontaneous combustion.

Ah apparently, the Targaryens traditionally did cremate their dead.

So I guess, without a definitive explanation from GRRM, how he actually died is subjective at the moment.

[Maximum Taco]

I'm honestly not sure.

 

It was just a speculation based on their preoccupation with fire. IMO, it would make sense for them to want to go out that way.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Meredith Quill]

I'm honestly not sure.

 

It was just a speculation based on their preoccupation with fire. IMO, it would make sense for them to want to go out that way.

 

After looking it up, I changed my post but it seems, you had already replied. :)

[Maximum Taco]

@Maximum Taco I viewed it at it as having a similar effect to spontaneous combustion.

Ah apparently, the Targaryens traditionally did cremate their dead.

So I guess, without a definitive explanation from GRRM, how he actually died is subjective at the moment.

 

 

After looking it up, I changed my post but it seems, you had already replied. :)

 

There's actually a third way it could've happened that my friend pointed out to me. And that's if he poured the wildfire into a cup, lit it, like he was a frat guy taking a shot of sambuca, and then tried to drink it.

 

 

"Dude! I'm a dragon bro!"

Edited June 13, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Lady S.]

There is obviously a book canon explanation for this if you want to know:

I've read the books but that doesn't really explain why even a sane king would give up after only one son. This is the same guy who

regretted that his ancestor outlawed the Lord's right to rape his vassals' wives, before he went fully bonkers, so it's not like he was opposed to rape when he had his wits about him

. And we know from Robert/Cersei that marital rape of a queen by her king isn't even really a concept in this world, and a Queen's main duty is to produce as many sons as possible. My conception of Aerys isn't of a Stannis-like king who only had sex with his wife for the sake of duty, we know

Rhaella hated him for good reason, but I don't think we ever heard that Aerys hated her enough to not even want to have sex with her until he was fully insane.

This age difference is one of those things that there's no good plot explanation for, imo. No, scratch that, I like Maximum Taco's explanation that Aerys

suffered from erectile dysfunction cured by pyromania.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Lady S.

[SoWindsor]

It's not really a spoiler. It's not really addressed directly in the books, and I believe GRRM answered this question in an interview or comic-con panel or something. It doesn't spoil any future plotlines, but I'll tag it anyway cause it's not discoverable from just watching the show.

 

GRRM has said that what happened to Dany when the dragons were born is a one time deal. Targaryens do not have a natural immunity to fire and that includes Daenerys, she was just immune to fire at that moment due to magic, essentially.

 

The following are minor book spoilers, that also do not spoil future plotlines.

Aegon V and his son Prince Duncan died in a fire, despite being Targaryens, and later on in the series Dany gets blisters on her hands from getting too close to dragonfire.

Then why does Dany say "fire cannot kill a dragon."

[Lady S.]

Because it's a cool line? Dany probably knows less about Targ history than good King Joffrey, the only Targ she knew was Viserys and she later acknowledged he didn't know anything about anything. Her whole life Viserys had called himself "the Dragon", then it turns out that he shouldn't have been taken literally when she sees him killed in front of her.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Lady S.

[Maximum Taco]

Then why does Dany say "fire cannot kill a dragon."

Like Lady S. says it's a cool line.

 

Later on when one of Khal Drogo's men says the horse does not mate with the sheep she says that the dragon feasts on horse and sheep alike. But I doubt she actually thinks she could kill a horselord on her own. You also should take into account that a lot of Targaryens have delusions of grandeur. Earlier in the thread we were talking about Aerion Targaryen who died drinking wildfire, I'm sure he thought a dragon couldn't die that way either.

 

Or she might just be remarking on the ironicness of his death. It would be similar to someone saying "In the end Lysa Arryn proved herself more Fish than Falcon; a Falcon can fly."

Edited June 13, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

Cersei mentioned there was a saying that when a Targaryen was born, the Gods flipped a coin to decide whether or not Baby Targ would be crazy.

 

But are the Targaryens really all that crazy, aside from a few obvious candidates like the Mad King and Mr. Brightflame?

 

They may have been arrogant, reckless, entitled, self-promoting, naive and other less than sterling qualities in varying combinations depending on the individual, but that's not the same as crazy.  They were the power in the land for several generations, so they were probably just used to getting what they wanted with a minimum of effort and back talk.

 

Is Robb crazy because he executed Karstark?  That was a reckless decision and, possibly, a self-promoting one since Robb wanted to been as just.

 

Is Olenna crazy?  Joffrey's murder went off well enough, but it was incredibly risky.  She can also be quite rude to people she sees as beneath her, such as her son or Pod.

 

Is Tyrion nuts for slapping Joffrey and repeatedly mouthing off to him?

 

I don't think so, but it seems as if a Targaryen  had exhibited these behaviors, it would be interpreted as said Targaryen being crazy, or starting to show signs of madness.

 

It reminds me of the Rosenhan experment

 

In the first part of experiment, several sane volunteers were admitted to psychiatric hospitals after briefly feigning auditory hallucinations prior to admission.  After being admitted, the volunteers no longer feigned any behavior and just acted normally.

 

Hospital notes indicated that staff interpreted much of the pseudopatients' behavior in terms of mental illness. For example, one nurse labeled the note-taking of one pseudopatient as "writing behavior" and considered it pathological. The patients' normal biographies were recast in hospital records along the lines of what was expected of schizophrenics by the then-dominant theories of its etiology.

 

The volunteers were only discharged after they admitted they had been been insane, but were getting better, and after they promised to take anti-psychotic medications.

 

In the second part of the experiment

 

...an offended hospital administration challenging Rosenhan to send pseudopatients to its facility, whom its staff would then detect. Rosenhan agreed and in the following weeks out of 193 new patients the staff identified 41 as potential pseudopatients, with 19 of these receiving suspicion from at least 1 psychiatrist and 1 other staff member. In fact Rosenhan had sent no one to the hospital.

[Maximum Taco]

Cersei mentioned there was a saying that when a Targaryen was born, the Gods flipped a coin to decide whether or not Baby Targ would be crazy.

 

But are the Targaryens really all that crazy, aside from a few obvious candidates like the Mad King and Mr. Brightflame?

 

They may have been arrogant, reckless, entitled, self-promoting, naive and other less than sterling qualities in varying combinations depending on the individual, but that's not the same as crazy.  They were the power in the land for several generations, so they were probably just used to getting what they wanted with a minimum of effort and back talk.

 

Baelor was seen as mad too. He was loved, sure, because his madness caused him to raise a boy of 6 to High Septon and not say, burn his bannermen alive, but it was madness all the same. 

 

Maegor the Cruel was seen as mad due to his violence, he was a bit more subtle than the Mad King though.

He had secret dungeons built under the real dungeons where he could torture away from prying eyes, instead of burning his enemies in open court. He was also very Henry the VIII-ish, he was married 8 times because he kept killing his wives because they would not produce heirs

 

I believe in the books there were others that were deemed mad due to their hair triggers and penchant for violent outbursts. You could group Viserys in this category too. But as you said this could just be seen as a side effect to getting what they wanted with a minimum of backtalk.

 

As another partial explanation for the madness

the Targaryens were also prone to vivid prophetic dreams. Now occaisionally these were actual prophecies, for instance Daenerys dreams of dragons in the books before hers hatch, and Daemon II Blackfyre accurately predicts his brothers deaths. However Maester Aemon also tells Samwell Tarly that his brothers (Daeron the Drunken, Aerion Brightflame and Aegon V) all dreamt of dragons and the dreams led to their deaths. So perhaps these dreams baited some Targaryens into deeds or events that would be seen as madness. After all if Daenerys had burned to death in Drogo's pyre they might have called her mad too.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Lady S.]

Cersei mentioned there was a saying that when a Targaryen was born, the Gods flipped a coin to decide whether or not Baby Targ would be crazy.

 

But are the Targaryens really all that crazy, aside from a few obvious candidates like the Mad King and Mr. Brightflame?

 

They may have been arrogant, reckless, entitled, self-promoting, naive and other less than sterling qualities in varying combinations depending on the individual, but that's not the same as crazy.  They were the power in the land for several generations, so they were probably just used to getting what they wanted with a minimum of effort and back talk.

 

Is Robb crazy because he executed Karstark?  That was a reckless decision and, possibly, a self-promoting one since Robb wanted to been as just.

 

Is Olenna crazy?  Joffrey's murder went off well enough, but it was incredibly risky.  She can also be quite rude to people she sees as beneath her, such as her son or Pod.

 

Is Tyrion nuts for slapping Joffrey and repeatedly mouthing off to him?

 

I don't think so, but it seems as if a Targaryen  had exhibited these behaviors, it would be interpreted as said Targaryen being crazy, or starting to show signs of madness.

 

It reminds me of the Rosenhan experment

I've been wondering about the Targ madness lately too. I doubt anyone would be calling Dany mad without knowing her dad was called the Mad King. Her mistakes are no more crazy than Robb or Stannis or any other ruler, as far as I can tell. And she was raised by Viserys with no other real role models in childhood, even if the gods flipped a coin and it landed on sanity, I wouldn't expect a person raised like that to be all that normal. That could even go for Viserys's instability as well, orphaned at five and raising his sister in a strange land, dependent on charity for food and shelter and knowing his family's killers had good reason to want to finish him off too. I feel like from what I know of the Targs' nearly 300 year history, the odds for sane rulers were actually better than 50/50.

 

And also what Maximum Taco said about

prophetic dreams

. For all we know, Aerion Brightflame and Aerys II both

had dreams that made them believe they could turn into dragons.

[theprincewhowas]

What is with Targaryens and Incest?

[Avaleigh]

I haven't read The world book since it came out but regarding the question of why it took Rhaella and Aerys II so long to have more kids---(minor possible spoilers)

Am I wrong in thinking that Rhaella had a string of miscarriages and stillbirths? In fact, I vaguely recall reading that the mental issues with Aerys intensified after one of their sons died in infancy. Didn't he blame Rhaella and wasn't this one of the things that made him flip out? I remember reading about him being extra cautious with Viserys when he was born and IIRC he even had issues with Rhaella being around Viserys unsupervised or something crazy like that. Does anybody else recall this?

Regarding Aerion's death by drinking wildfire---I don't think a spark was needed nor do I think he made some kind of flaming Moe beverage before drinking it. I was under the impression that it was dangerous to touch wildfire let alone swallow it because it's such a powerful substance basically anything can set it off. It can't be put out by water and basically anything people try to do to stop the spread of wildfire only makes things worse. If Aerion had sparked it before drinking it, I don't think that he would have been the only casualty. Mainly I think the story would include details about how it started a huge fire where multiple people were hurt or killed. Similarly, I can't see Aerion being able to drink the drink after setting it on fire because of how immediately intense wildfire is. To me it makes much more sense that he drank the substance when it was at a normal temperature and immediately regretted it once it did what wildfire does and starts burning him from the inside. My only question is how the witnesses managed to contain the fire once it got started inside of him if that is indeed what happened. I can see it just being a painful poisoning too and that's actually the idea I lean towards most.

Regarding Targaryens and incest---(I'm citing the world book in this so I'll spoiler tag it even though I'm only talking about the dragonlords in Old Valyria)

One thing that the world book put to bed was the oft repeated assumption that Targaryens were just Valyrian hillbillies and they were unusual in their practice of incest. In fact, not only do we learn that the other dragon riding families all practiced incest but brother/sister matches were considered to be "ideal" and if a sibling match up wasn't an option for some reason, then uncle/niece or aunt/nephew were considered to be perfectly acceptable. Isn't this strange and doesn't there seem like there's probably an explanation for why this group of people were so obsessed with keeping their bloodlines "pure". (There are plenty of ways to ensure a "pure" bloodline without having to resort to incest in the immediate family.) I also think it's  

What's more, the decline for the Targaryens (in terms of the hold they have on their dragons) seems to begin after instances of them repeatedly marrying outside of the family. It isn't a big deal at first but my guess is that after x amount of generations of being one of the only surviving families of Old Valyria that they basically forgot things like the reasons for why incest was practiced in the first place or how to breed and control their dragons.

I think "blood of the dragon" also ties into the incest in that something magical was done in order for families to bond with dragons. I think something similar is going on with the Starks and their direwolves in that some long ago blood magic is the explanation for the bond and the bond popping up in certain families.

[YaddaYadda]

@Avaleigh, 

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, it was infant Jaehaerys who died when he was 6 months old or something like that, probably from SIDS, but Aerys blamed the wet nurse and had her beheaded. Then he decided that it was his mistress who had his son poisoned and tortued them to death, then he went all Baelor the Blessed for a few days and decided that he was going to stay faithful to Rhaella.

 

46 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Spoiler

I think "blood of the dragon" also ties into the incest in that something magical was done in order for families to bond with dragons. I think something similar is going on with the Starks and their direwolves in that some long ago blood magic is the explanation for the bond and the bond popping up in certain families.

 

Spoiler

I agree with this. The Starks bloodline is an interesting study, I find. Too bad we have nothing before 130 AC

[Lady S.]

Ok, so this includes old posts from the Dany thread. I was a bit confused at first.

[RedheadZombie]

Wasn't Dany's father the only "mad" Targaryen?  I know another drank wildfire, but they were all obsessed with being dragons. and he only harmed himself.  So what I'm wondering, is how people so ignorant about genetics they didn't realize where hair and eye color come from, yet believe madness runs in families.  And if madness did run in families, what explained Joffrey?

So Dany's father was mad, big deal.  Her mother wasn't.  Her brothers weren't.  So why would Dany be the one affected by the incest?  I will say, they baited fans with the look on Dany's face when she burned the slave owner.  She looked entranced and a little turned on.  But since then, I've seen no signs of her enjoying Drogon's kills.  In fact, she seemed more upset than anything when she ordered the Tarlys killed.  And it's not like she fed them to Drogon.  When she starts brutalizing her lover, burning people to get turned on, and burning people simply for fun, then we'll talk. 

BTW, I felt no sympathy for that slave owner.  Give me a break.  I would have been fine if she'd killed all the slave owners personally.

[Lady S.]

On 8/30/2017 at 7:17 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Wasn't Dany's father the only "mad" Targaryen? 

As far as kings go, I think Maegor the Cruel and Baelor the Blessed were pretty off, if not in the same way as Aerys's pyromania. There are accounts of a few princes, like Aerion Brightflame, who also sound touched in the head, but those three are the only Targs I would definitely call mad kings. 

I thought it got ridic when Varys said Dany would never be like her father if she had the right counsel. That's not how mental illness works. Varys is guilty of supplying "traitors" for Aerys to torture to death but that doesn't mean the Mad King would have been sane if his council had acted more responsibly. People around could have done better to limit his power and the damage he did but they couldn't stop from being mad.