S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen

[mangosplums]

On 7/23/2017 at 6:01 PM, Granny58 said:

I think that it what I'm trying to put together in my head.  I could sit here dressed as a man and I would only feel like me.  It wouldn't make any difference because (as far as I and my cousin can discern), that's the only way you can feel.  So to feel like the other gender, I wonder if that already (sorry this is indelicate, not meant to offend, I just can't find the right words) is off track and it isn't so much as feeling like a particular gender as much as something else about it strikes a chord.  I was fast as a kid, strong as an adult (really strong, wierdly strong) but didn't feel like a male....or female....just me.   So to "feel" like a particular gender, I don't get that.  Please, others chime in.  Do you feel like your gender or just yourself?  

Can you imagine what it'd be like if you were male? I try to think of myself if I were born male and I think it would be awful. I would hate being a guy. I've always had female interests as a kid, dolls, barbies etc. I don't think they were ingrained in me by society, I think they were natural. I relate to people in a typical feminine way. I like having soft skin, a body without body hair, and a voice that's not deep. I think if I were male it would always feel like it didn't fit and I would dislike my body and long to have a female one and just be a girl.

Edited July 25, 2017 by mangosplums

[Impatient]

I am so glad there was no offense taken!

 

just two things though.  I am a neurobiologist, so this much I can tell you with total confidence:  we know nothing, abolutely nothing, about what has been going on in Jazz's brain thru this and we would have no idea what to even look for in terms of hormonally determined differences between the sexes, because the ranges in cellular composition, tract size, etc., overlap.  There was a guy about 25 years ago who claimed you could distinguish straight men from gay men and straight women from gay women, by the number of cells in a region of the hypothalamus that he called something like "the attracted to femaleness" nucleus (that was not the name, but that is the gist of it).  But that could never be duplicated and his study turned out to be hugely flawed.  So as far as I know, there is no evidence at all to suggest we know what is going on in the brain during puberty, as a result of hormones, that is.  Except for things like cells being added to the prefrontal cortex in the adolescent brain, the corpus calossum getting larger in the adolescent brain).  Interestingly, the only thing you MIGHT be able to say if you could karyotype the cells, is whether or not the brain you were looking at is genetically female or not.  I haven't kept up with the literature (this is sort of curiosity science, with political underpinnings, so people are simultaneously drawn to reading about it but rarely comment on it), so i could have missed something, but by and large?  Big black box.

 

Secondly, in terms of dating preferences:  maybe it's just me, but i have always gotten the impression that the entire Jennings family has thought of Jazz's "problem" as being wholly medically correctable.  Testosterone blocking, synthetic estrogens, possible top surgery, bottom surgery and then?  Problem solved!  Jazz is a girl, then woman, just like any other.  It's the 'just like any other' aspect of Jazz's upbringing that i have problems with.  They never ever seem to have those tough conversations. The ones that go like the ones my dad would have brought up.  About mutilating your body to match what the outside world thinks and says (as in nose jobs).  Or what is it you want in life, Jazz?  And before the age of say 13 or so, not discussing anything at all in terms of girl brain in a boy body.  Not saying my dad was The paragon of paternal wisdom, but he was practical. Real world oriented.  

 

There is definitely an unspoken bias in that house that is pro-trans.  Understandable of course.  When I say pro-trans, i am referring to the idea of 'a woman, just like any other'.  The size of Jazz's dating pool and who is in it, is also never discussed but if someone close to them, someone who is not dismissable as cruel bigoted bullies (like the boys at the outdoor cafe who called Jazz a tranny freak), said around the dinner table, "i could never have a relationship with a trans person.", that person would be (at least somewhat) ostracized.  For being anti-Jazz.  I remember that after the first season, one of the posters here said, "notice that the twins never comment on their preferences regarding trans vs cis women.  What would Jeanette's reactions be if one or more of her children had transgender spouses?"  I just think the Jennings are so supportive of Jazz and their medical decisions, that they are blindly defensive and somewhat self-righteous on all aspects of all things transgender.  I am perfectly willing to concede i could be wrong about this because my opinion is based so much on what they do NOT say.  But that gaping black hole you could drive a truck through ---- what is the life you want Jazz?  How realistic are our expectations? --- really ought to be addressed at least a bit more than it has been. Jack and Jackie are the only ones willing to discuss this even peripherally:  "No matter how great Jazz is, she will always be the girl with the thingee between her legs".  That moment was like a splash of cold cold water.

 

The show stays focused on the trivia, but if they were going to be truly brave and groundbreaking, they would discuss the more serious issues and generate a real conversation about treating transgender individuals as young as 3 or 8.

[Granny58]

7 hours ago, mangosplums said:

Can you imagine what it'd be like if you were male? I try to think of myself if I were born male and I think it would be awful. I would hate being a guy. I've always had female interests as a kid, dolls, barbies etc. I don't think they were ingrained in me by society, I think they were natural. I relate to people in a typical feminine way. I like having soft skin, a body without body hair, and a voice that's not deep. I think if I were male it would always feel like it didn't fit and I would dislike my body and long to have a female one and just be a girl.

I have tried to imagine life as a male and I just don't think I would feel that different, but of course I am not male so how would I know.  As a child I played equally with dolls and trucks.  I think I would have made different choices in life, but also the era I was born was a factor in that.  However, I finally saw something that helps me understand a little bit.  There was a commercial on TV for a program to donate suits to young men trying to raise themselves out of poverty and get a job.  They showed a young man wearing a suit, with the point being that he is now perceived differently (AND perceives himself differently) than when he was wearing his typical clothes.   I extrapolated that to the transgender question.   I could now understand that if you have an inner conflict, and could effectively pass as the opposite gender (i.e. society would reinforce your choice), that would be a balm to you.  I'm still not convinced that there is a female or male brain and that people are in the wrong bodies, but if it is something that really bothers you then convincingly living as the opposite sex would be comforting.   So I've gotten that far. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Granny58

[Scarlett45]

@Impatient I think the Jennings family to the best of their current ability has given Jazz real-world expectations, my example of this is Jeanette's attitude towards "disclosure always"- before Jazz has any type of relationship with anyone Jeanette has told her to disclose. When Jazz was little, before they let her go to others homes to play or vice versa disclosure was required. Jeanette and Greg know the type of real physical danger/death Jazz faces as a transgender woman.

As far as the twins having a preference for cis/trans women, trans people make up two percent of the population- being open to dating trans people is something most cis people never have to think about because it stastically isn't a concern for them. I don't think not wanting to date trans people is wrong, but I think it's RUDE to sit across from a trans person you claim to love (that's a member of your family) and proclaim "I could never be in a relationship with a trans-person (just as rude to say that to your black relative, or your overweight relative etc), no one is asking you to do date anyone.

Jazz' siblings love her, they wouldn't say such a thing (which would do nothing but hurt her). If they partner most likely they will end up with cis gender partners on a statistical level.

 

I think on the "outside world" Jazz is "other" enough for 1000 lifetimes, within her family of origin I am glad she is accepted and loved as is. 

I think Jeanette and Greg are doing their best. Jazz' age group are the first generation to be able to transition as children. I'm sure when they've talked to other transwomen who made the choice to transition in their 30s-40s after careers, partners and living in society as male, the upheaval was far greater than what Jazz is experiencing now. 

Granted I am a cis-woman, I don't know what it's like to be trans or parent a trans child. 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Scarlett45
I

[Impatient]

Scarlett 145 the Williams Institute, an LGBT think tank at UCLA law school, says the percentage of trans people in the population is actually 10 times less than you think, namely 0.3%., i.e., only 3/1000 people in the US is trans.  So I would imagine it is even more difficult to find trans partners than I can imagine, and I am sympathetic to that problem  On  the other hand, I have friends who are each carriers of an extremely rare genetic abnormality.  The odds of them falling in love and getting married and reproducing were approximately 16 billion to 1.  But it happened and they had two children, of which they are enormously proud, who have severe facial and limb abnormalities.  The point is, the odds against anything rarely dissuade me anymore.  Humans are resilient and life is long.   

Now if the conversation in the Jennings house is ANYTHING like the conversation in my house growing up, the family was one place where they COULD speak openly about things at the dinner table, INCLUDING whether they would consider a trans partner or not. Hurt feelings?  When you are dealing with 12 and 13 year old brothers there is no such things as consideration for people's feelings.  I was the big sister, not the baby sister, but my brothers would have stomped all over that topic without a moment's hesitation. And admittedly, i don't LIKE my brothers who do everything they think is appropriate out of 'tough love", but to think people in the outside world are going to be considerate of emotions and hurt feelings is not realistic and I would imagine, some tough conversations HAVE been had in the Jennings household, that the show would benefit from having light shown upon.   Not the kind of conversations that we have seen them discuss, namely the importance of disclosure for one's personal safety, but things like "Jazz this is a totally new world opening up.  Let's talk about the kinds of things that you think you want in life most fervently and what's not so important to you?"  What family has not had conversations about "When you have children of your own...." conversations?  Followed by "I want a million kids" or "I don't want kids!",etc.  I know this i extremely personal and intimate, but think about the surgical details they have discussed.   Think of the opportunity they have here, to open up their humaness.  If they did discuss these very fundamental things that every single human being has thought about, talked about......  THAT is how you create understanding and appreciation for how we truly are all the same, in the ways that matter.

 

Of course those are also the issues that truly make us feel the most vulnerable....  When my brothers said, "ewwww, who'd ever want to marry YOOOUUU?!?!?!" it was just the usual sibling squabbling.  With the Jennings Family, saying something even that simple has huge huge hurtful connotations.  

[Scarlett45]

@Impatient I absolutely defer to you regarding sibling dynamics- I don't have a brothers or a sister I could have a conversation with so perhaps my perception of how siblings interact is incorrect. I just couldn't imagine any of my family saying something like that to me- my Mom would've eaten them alive and they wouldn't have been invited back. (Maybe that's why I get Jeanette a little bit)

Youre right, the outside world doesn't give two hoots about Jazz and her feelings, my point was that inside her own home she should feel emotionally safe and free from pressures to conform. She should never feel like she is "less than" because she is trans, different but not less. 

[Impatient]

I agree that in an ideal world, that is true.  But i also think people know as much about their family members by what they don't say as by what they do say.  

[Impatient]

If you are an only child Scarlett45, trust me you do not know how the dynamics would have been different if you had had siblings.  To say your mom would have eaten a sibling alive if they had said something mean to you, just made me chuckle a little cuz you see, you say that as your mother's only child.  But if that person saying something vicious to you was ALSO her child, then you are no longer the recipient of total absolute protection.  Then she'll start saying things like, "oh come on, he didn't mean it."  Or "be the bigger person."  Etc.  or my mom's seemingly constant, "can't you guys get along?"

 

i think the Jennings' could have these conversations without figurative bloodshed, but who knows?  Maybe in addition to therapy, they should be getting family therapy.  And not from Cousin Debbie.

[Scarlett45]

16 minutes ago, Impatient said:

If you are an only child Scarlett45, trust me you do not know how the dynamics would have been different if you had had siblings.  To say your mom would have eaten a sibling alive if they had said something mean to you, just made me chuckle a little cuz you see, you say that as your mother's only child.  But if that person saying something vicious to you was ALSO her child, then you are no longer the recipient of total absolute protection.  Then she'll start saying things like, "oh come on, he didn't mean it."  Or "be the bigger person."  Etc.  or my mom's seemingly constant, "can't you guys get along?"

 

i think the Jennings' could have these conversations without figurative bloodshed, but who knows?  Maybe in addition to therapy, they should be getting family therapy.  And not from Cousin Debbie.

I'm not an only child, I'm a Sib- my sister is profoundly mentally disabled, mental age 18months-2yrs. So I know what it's like to share parental attention and "let things go" but my sister is incapable of having a conversation with anyone.

I'm looking at this from the perspsecutive of the "normal one", whatever issues I had surrounding growing up as a Sib I wouldn't be compelled to call my sister names (even though she can't understand what I'm saying) or break her toys or something that would cause her distress because she was the "special one". That would make me kind of an asshole! 

Also my Mom was an only child as well so maybe that effects how I look at things, she cannot believe some of the mean things "family" says to each other.

Again that's why I defer to you. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Impatient]

Yes, think your situation is unique.  Sort of like being an only child without being spoiled!  Because you have a sister who made you aware of how lucky you are, how you are not the only person who matters in the universe (our next door neighbors had an only child who was INSUFFERABLE!!!!), but had no vicious arguments, no cut you to the quick comments that stayed with you....  

 

I hope you and your sister are both doing well.  And love each other.  :)

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, Impatient said:

Yes, think your situation is unique.  Sort of like being an only child without being spoiled!  Because you have a sister who made you aware of how lucky you are, how you are not the only person who matters in the universe (our next door neighbors had an only child who was INSUFFERABLE!!!!), but had no vicious arguments, no cut you to the quick comments that stayed with you....  

 

I hope you and your sister are both doing well.  And love each other.  :)

You're too kind. She's just a sweet baby (most of the time), a very happy toddler who's 29, and 5'9! (Look at me rhyme) I did have to share resources and physical attention growing up but not emotional attention so much (if that makes sense).

But yes I do see similarities in how Jeanette treats Jazz and how my Mom treated my sister when we were growing up- so as the "normal one" I can see how Ari and the twins might feel sometimes even though they love Jazz very much, and it's nothing against Jazz just how the family dynamics work out. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Scarlett45

[mangosplums]

On 7/25/2017 at 7:39 AM, Impatient said:

 

Secondly, in terms of dating preferences:  maybe it's just me, but i have always gotten the impression that the entire Jennings family has thought of Jazz's "problem" as being wholly medically correctable.  Testosterone blocking, synthetic estrogens, possible top surgery, bottom surgery and then?  Problem solved!  Jazz is a girl, then woman, just like any other.  It's the 'just like any other' aspect of Jazz's upbringing that i have problems with.  They never ever seem to have those tough conversations. The ones that go like the ones my dad would have brought up.  About mutilating your body to match what the outside world thinks and says (as in nose jobs).  Or what is it you want in life, Jazz?  And before the age of say 13 or so, not discussing anything at all in terms of girl brain in a boy body.  Not saying my dad was The paragon of paternal wisdom, but he was practical. Real world oriented.  

 

 

I was just watching a special from when Jazz was a child, where she said she felt like a girl and wanted to play with barbies and wear a dress. Back then that's all being a girl was about for her. I kind of wish someone trans posted on this forum to get their take. Is it really body dyphoria that Jazz is experiencing or is it just about gender roles? If we let boys wear dresses, play with barbies and dolls, like pink, have long hair etc.... and let girls do all the  boy things, if we didn't separate children by gender at all, just let them gravitate to whatever they liked.... would any of this be a problem in the first place? Is this really about Jazz not feeling one with her physical body, not feeling male, or is it about not feeling like she fits male gender roles? Is it about our society not accepting people for who they are? If gender roles didn't exist and men could be as feminine as they wanted, throughout their whole lives, and women as masculine, would Jazz and other transpeople feel the need to change their bodies? I wonder.  Then again, I don't know, maybe it is about the body and if we raised children in a gender-role-less society, someone like Jazz would still become hopelessly depressed and suicidal when she hit puberty and realized she was going to develop a beard and deep voice. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by mangosplums

[stacyasp]

40 minutes ago, mangosplums said:

I was just watching a special from when Jazz was a child, where she said she felt like a girl and wanted to play with barbies and wear a dress. Back then that's all being a girl was about for her. I kind of wish someone trans posted on this forum to get their take. Is it really body dyphoria that Jazz is experiencing or is it just about gender roles? If we let boys wear dresses, play with barbies and dolls, like pink, have long hair etc.... and let girls do all the  boy things, if we didn't separate children by gender at all, just let them gravitate to whatever they liked.... would any of this be a problem in the first place? Is this really about Jazz not feeling one with her physical body, not feeling male, or is it about not feeling like she fits male gender roles? Is it about our society not accepting people for who they are? If gender roles didn't exist and men could be as feminine as they wanted, throughout their whole lives, and women as masculine, would Jazz and other transpeople feel the need to change their bodies? I wonder.  Then again, I don't know, maybe it is about the body and if we raised children in a gender-role-less society, someone like Jazz would still become hopelessly depressed and suicidal when she hit puberty and realized she was going to develop a beard and deep voice. 

Why not therapy to align ones thinking with the body they have instead of trying to change the body,obviously 

y there is some disconnect between what they think and the reality of who they are biologically, why is this never discussed!

[TwirlyGirly]

9 hours ago, mangosplums said:

I was just watching a special from when Jazz was a child, where she said she felt like a girl and wanted to play with barbies and wear a dress. Back then that's all being a girl was about for her. I kind of wish someone trans posted on this forum to get their take. Is it really body dyphoria that Jazz is experiencing or is it just about gender roles? If we let boys wear dresses, play with barbies and dolls, like pink, have long hair etc.... and let girls do all the  boy things, if we didn't separate children by gender at all, just let them gravitate to whatever they liked.... would any of this be a problem in the first place? Is this really about Jazz not feeling one with her physical body, not feeling male, or is it about not feeling like she fits male gender roles? Is it about our society not accepting people for who they are? If gender roles didn't exist and men could be as feminine as they wanted, throughout their whole lives, and women as masculine, would Jazz and other transpeople feel the need to change their bodies? I wonder.  Then again, I don't know, maybe it is about the body and if we raised children in a gender-role-less society, someone like Jazz would still become hopelessly depressed and suicidal when she hit puberty and realized she was going to develop a beard and deep voice. 

I'm not trans, nor do I have any family members/friends who are. This is just a subject I find interesting and want to learn more about, so I do a fair amount of research on it.

That being said, gender identity and gender expression are two different things.

From Wikipedia:

"Gender identity is one's internal sense of their own gender; while most people have a gender identity of a boy or a man, or a girl or a woman, gender identity for other people is more complex than two choices. Furthermore, gender expression is the external manifestation of one's gender identity, usually through "masculine," "feminine," or gender variant presentation or behavior." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_variance)

I'm quoting portions of the following article, "Separating Out Gender Identity from Gender Expression" (http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/separating-identity-expression/), . but if you have the time, read the entire article:

"Although gender identity and gender expression can be related, the point is that they don’t have to be.

[...]

Gender identity is internal, deeply-rooted, and a central part of many people’s senses of self.

For example, I identify as masculine-of-center. If I were to say “I am a woman,” it would feel as ridiculous as if I were saying “I am a dinosaur.”

Gender expression, on the other hand, is what everyone around us can see.

Gender expression is the way in which you express your gender.

Sometimes these expressions go along with socially sanctioned ideas of what is appropriate. For example, we live in a society that deems dresses appropriate for women, but not for men. But sometimes they don’t.

You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally feminine way. You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally masculine way. The point is that the two aren’t necessarily related.

The way that someone expresses their gender is not necessarily a clue as to how they identify their gender."

As for Jazz, going by just what has been discussed in the show, it doesn't appear her family discouraged her gender expression as a young child (they may have initially tried to steer her towards more "masculine" play, who knows? But when Jazz persisted, it seems they were able to fully accept it). However, even with that acceptance of Jazz' gender expression non-conformity, she still insisted she was female and not male. So in Jazz' case, despite being assigned male at birth, both her gender expression and gender identity were female from the time she had the capability to express both.

[mangosplums]

10 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'm not trans, nor do I have any family members/friends who are. This is just a subject I find interesting and want to learn more about, so I do a fair amount of research on it.

That being said, gender identity and gender expression are two different things.

From Wikipedia:

"Gender identity is one's internal sense of their own gender; while most people have a gender identity of a boy or a man, or a girl or a woman, gender identity for other people is more complex than two choices. Furthermore, gender expression is the external manifestation of one's gender identity, usually through "masculine," "feminine," or gender variant presentation or behavior." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_variance)

I'm quoting portions of the following article, "Separating Out Gender Identity from Gender Expression" (http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/separating-identity-expression/), . but if you have the time, read the entire article:

"Although gender identity and gender expression can be related, the point is that they don’t have to be.

[...]

Gender identity is internal, deeply-rooted, and a central part of many people’s senses of self.

For example, I identify as masculine-of-center. If I were to say “I am a woman,” it would feel as ridiculous as if I were saying “I am a dinosaur.”

Gender expression, on the other hand, is what everyone around us can see.

Gender expression is the way in which you express your gender.

Sometimes these expressions go along with socially sanctioned ideas of what is appropriate. For example, we live in a society that deems dresses appropriate for women, but not for men. But sometimes they don’t.

You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally feminine way. You may identify as a woman and dress in a traditionally masculine way. The point is that the two aren’t necessarily related.

The way that someone expresses their gender is not necessarily a clue as to how they identify their gender."

As for Jazz, going by just what has been discussed in the show, it doesn't appear her family discouraged her gender expression as a young child (they may have initially tried to steer her towards more "masculine" play, who knows? But when Jazz persisted, it seems they were able to fully accept it). However, even with that acceptance of Jazz' gender expression non-conformity, she still insisted she was female and not male. So in Jazz' case, despite being assigned male at birth, both her gender expression and gender identity were female from the time she had the capability to express both.

Oh I understand that, believe me. My question is where does gender identity come from? Does Jazz identify as a girl because at 2 or 3, she liked barbies and dresses more than trucks and dinosaurs?  It doesn't really matter how accepting Jazz's family is towards her gender expression. It takes a village to raise a child and society teaches children that girls like barbies and dresses and boys like trucks and dinosaurs, just as society teaches us that men want to have sex with women and women want to have sex with men. We all know now that all of this is ludicrous, there are plenty of boys who like traditionally girl things, and girls who like traditionally boy things. But the messages that we send kids is that that isn't possible; if you want wear a dress and play with barbies, you are girl. I'm just wondering if Jazz's desire to be female comes from a very early desire to be able to live as the person she is, someone who wants to wear a dress and play with dolls. And if her fear of male puberty comes from this. 

What I'm saying is if we didn't have gender roles. And men could wear dresses and make-up and it wasn't considered weird, and if we didn't separate children by their sex, would Jazz still grow up with a female gender identity, and desire to change her body at puberty, or would she see herself as just a really feminine guy, and be fine with facial hair and a deep voice? It's hard to know. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by mangosplums

[SongbirdHollow]

16 hours ago, mangosplums said:

Oh I understand that, believe me. My question is where does gender identity come from? Does Jazz identify as a girl because at 2 or 3, she liked barbies and dresses more than trucks and dinosaurs?

No. Plenty of girls like trucks and dinosaurs but don't identify as male. Plenty of men like dressing as women but don't identify as female. It's a separate thing. I think people are getting caught up in the outward trappings and behaviors and not understanding that it's something more internal for transgender people.

[Angela perillo]

On 7/12/2017 at 11:48 PM, woodscommaelle said:

Jayleen too. They're both good people.

One of the twins looked like Christian Siriano tonight.

I LOVED LOVED LOVED the doctor. I think Jazz did, too. 

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