S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

It's the link I sent you previously of his panel.  It starts at the 8:00 mark.  He was definitely joking about the Cas not being the brightest angel, but then he gives Cas's reasoning as he sees it.

So then Misha is having to head!canon himself why Cas did that it seems  LOL

[CluelessDrifter]

27 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The righteous soul breaks the seal by spilling blood in hell - not Alistair. 

I've never seen it that way.  Alistair broke Dean.  Dean breaking was the breaking of the seal.  

Like in Death Takes a Holiday, I'd say Alistair was attempting to break that seal, not that the dying (or not dying in Tessa's case) reapers were breaking the seal.

27 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Not that it matters because goodbye Dean's storyline of being the one to start and stop it. 

I'm not planning on starting anything by saying this, but Dean did stop it.  He was the last man standing against Lucifer, so he was there for Sam to connect with when Sam took control, and if Dean hadn't driven the green army man there, the Apocalypse would've happened (I hate that green army man).

27 minutes ago, Airmid said:

If any random smuck could do it why bother with the Winchesters at all. 

That was kind of my point.  I don't know how to explain it other than, it's minimizing the importance of Dean and Sam in season 1-4 and part of season 5, but especially 4 and part of 5, and then it's making it not seem like that by turning it around and saying the world would look like the AU without them.

27 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Not only is it a case where the early seasons did them no good in terms of story telling (everything shifted with the writers strike, Dean then going to hell because they didn't have enough time to develop Sam's arc, then Kripke deciding angels had to be a thing because demons needing a counterpart, etc) but it jettisons a bunch of old lore like it was nothing. 

Yeah, there is some zigging and zagging going on with the early seasons story-wise, but if you don't look too close, it still kind of works for some reason.
 

Edited May 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Except the prophecies weren't false.  At least the righteous man prophecy wasn't.  Sam and Dean changed the destiny that Gabriel mentioned, but that doesn't really change what I meant.  Without the prophecies/Chuck's loose plan, the angels wouldn't have made sure Sam and Dean were born, and Sam and Dean wouldn't have had the lives they lived that lead to them finding out about the 'destiny' they were able to fight.

As I said, the angels propaganda was loosely based on vague prophecy the archangels interpreted to be about Sam and Dean and then set about meddling in affairs to make sure the prophecy happened the way they wanted--which was actually their undoing. The only things I think was true about the prophecy was:

• The first seal is broken when a righteous man spills blood in hell.
• The last seal is broken when Lucifer's first is killed.
•  A fight between Heaven and Hell to determine the fate of the planet and humanity.

So, the first seal can still be broken by any righteous man given they spill blood in Hell, the last seal can be broken by anyone who kills Lucifer's first and the fight between Heaven and Hell ensues.

I assumed what happened in the alternate universe was the angels didn't meddle; they sat back and let things happen on their own without any interference. Mary and John got together on their own, but John died before Sam and Dean were made. So, Sam and Dean weren't there to stop the fight and lock up Michael and Lucifer.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Honestly, I thought it would've been the perfect time for him to sneak over to the other side while they were preoccupied.  He did comment on how he'd heard everything was so great in the SPN universe.

Yeah, I was wondering why he didn't at least pop over for a look himself. Or, that someone else didn't "accidentally" fall through the rift between the time Cass returned and when he showed the boys the rift.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

As I said, the angels propaganda was loosely based on vague prophecy the archangels interpreted to be about Sam and Dean and then set about meddling in affairs to make sure the prophecy happened the way they wanted--which was actually their undoing. The only things I think was true about the prophecy was:

• The first seal is broken when a righteous man spills blood in hell.
• The last seal is broken when Lucifer's first is killed.
•  A fight between Heaven and Hell to determine the fate of the planet and humanity.

So, the first seal can still be broken by any righteous man given they spill blood in Hell, the last seal can be broken by anyone who kills Lucifer's first and the fight between Heaven and Hell ensues.

Yeah, I know.  I'm not being snarky, but I don't understand why there's a miscommunication over this?  I didn't say that Dean had to be righteous man.  I didn't say that Sam had to be the one to kill Lilith.  I said the opposite.  What I'm questioning is the prophecies or words laid down by Chuck that said that everything would come down to Sam and Dean - the reason cupid was dispatched to make John and Mary fall in love as they presumably did going all the way back to Cain and Abel as per Michael in TSRtS and Gabriel saying that going all the way back to the start of creation, the angels knew it'd come down to Dean and Sam.  

Is your argument that because the other prophecies were loose for interpretation that Sam and Dean's bloodlines were also loose for interpretation?  I would disagree because of how precise something like that would have to be to get it right over eons, but at least we'd have a similar starting point, and I think we're almost there, because you wrote this:

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I assumed what happened in the alternate universe was the angels didn't meddle; they sat back and let things happen on their own without any interference. Mary and John got together on their own, but John died before Sam and Dean were made. So, Sam and Dean weren't there to stop the fight and lock up Michael and Lucifer.

Which is almost what I'm saying or questioning rather.  If the angels sat back in the AU, is it because there were no family trees they had to coordinate, what I would consider prophecies, or is it because those prophecies were different or changed in some way?  If that's the case, it's the prophecies being different that changed that universe.

[Airmid]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You know - Sam and Dean being brothers, technically Sam is also a descendant of Cain.  Anyway, I'm pretty sure they aren't the only descendants of Cain out there.  

Yes, and it may have at one time tied into why they were true vessels. But the point I was making was that the angels had to send the cupids out to continue the lines to get these true vessels - i.e. humans strong enough to hold archangels. 

And yeah, there are other descendants of Cain out there - namely Adam. Remember him? Or John, who was able to hold Michael at least for a little bit. But the cupids had to be in play to get Sam and Dean, who were seen at least for a time as the ultimate goal to start the world ending war.

16 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I've never seen it that way.  Alistair broke Dean.  Dean breaking was the breaking of the seal.  

Like in Death Takes a Holiday, I'd say Alistair was attempting to break that seal, not that the dying (or not dying in Tessa's case) reapers were breaking the seal.

The reapers had to die in order for the seal to break. In that case Alistair had to physically murder them. In Dean's case his soul had to literally give up and then be willing to pick up the knife and spill blood. While Alistair tortured Dean to breaking it was still Dean's hand in the end that chose that, which in reality was just another form of torture.

ALASTAIR: And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break.

Interestingly enough, given the prophecy, even with these actions Dean's still seen as a righteous man despite his actions. I'm not saying Dean's a horrible person or that he deserved what he got, only that in the end it was still him and not Alastair because it had to be someone that qualified as righteous. Dean crossed a line though when he wanted the torture to stop, it was that line that he crossed that broke the seal and put everything in motion. 

26 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

That was kind of my point.  I don't know how to explain it other than, it's minimizing the importance of Dean and Sam in season 1-4 and part of season 5, but especially 4 and part of 5, and then it's making it not seem like that by turning it around and saying the world would look like the AU without them.

Yeah, it does take away their entire story, their history and what they've been through together and it also makes no sense given the rules built up in the first seasons. While not stated it is heavily implied that both heaven and hell believe it has to be Dean that starts it and it has to be Sam that kills Lilith. Otherwise, why not find some other gullible moron to kill Lilith. Why not find another man that qualifies as righteous and have him break the seal.

Yet, we get a world that while we don't know a lot about it, makes it seem rather pointless but still saves the fact that both brothers sacrificed everything to have their own world not look like that. Which is so weird.

30 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, there is some zigging and zagging going on with the early seasons story-wise, but if you don't look too close, it still kind of works for some reason.

If you want my cynical opinion that's because we still had writers who gave a damn about story and trying to write a cohesive unit, along with directors like Kim Manners who tried to do the best with what they had to work with. Even with the giant zag the whole arc took due to the writers strike they still tried their best 1-4 to keep things looking like they belonged together. Season 5 suffers from what appears to be a rather indecisive viewpoint on how to end the season with changes mid-pace that included brining in Adam to take care of the Michael problem they had.

33 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'm not planning on starting anything by saying this, but Dean did stop it.  He was the last man standing against Lucifer, so he was there for Sam to connect with when Sam took control, and if Dean hadn't driven the green army man there, the Apocalypse would've happened (I hate that green army man).

I hate the green army man too. :)

But yeah, sorry I wasn't clear that Dean was both the start and the final stop of the apocalypse. I just wish they did that differently but that's for the bitterness thread. 

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

What I'm questioning is the prophecies or words laid down by Chuck that said that everything would come down to Sam and Dean - the reason cupid was dispatched to make John and Mary fall in love as they presumably did going all the way back to Cain and Abel as per Michael in TSRtS and Gabriel saying that going all the way back to the start of creation, the angels knew it'd come down to Dean and Sam.

What I'm saying is, I don't think those were words laid down by Chuck. The prophecies weren't about Sam and Dean specifically, the angels interpreted the prophecies to be about Sam and Dean. Sam and Dean were one of an infinite possible outcomes, the angels in our universe just decided Sam and Dean were the outcome they wanted and then set about making it happen. Which, ironically, was their own undoing. If they hadn't made sure Sam and Dean were born, then the plan would've never been averted.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

And yeah, there are other descendants of Cain out there - namely Adam. Remember him? Or John,

You mean the Adam, who as far as we know is still in the cage with Michael?  Lol.  I meant other descendants other than Winchesters.  

8 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

What I'm questioning is the prophecies or words laid down by Chuck that said that everything would come down to Sam and Dean

While I can't answer for @DittyDotDot, I would question as to whether the words actually laid down by Chuck (do you mean The Bible? - which is where Revelation and The Apocalypse originate.  Just sayin') said that everything would come down to Sam and Dean.  If it is the Bible to which you are referring from which the prophecy about the Apocolypse comes, then I can definitely state it says Nothing about Sam and Dean Winchester.  ;)  If not the Bible, but some other random prophecy about the end of the world, I still really don't think Chuck was that specific.  

11 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Yet, we get a world that while we don't know a lot about it, makes it seem rather pointless but still saves the fact that both brothers sacrificed everything to have their own world not look like that. Which is so weird.

I don't understand what is so weird about the fact that since Sam and Dean weren't around to fight back against the angels, instead of just giving in and believing whatever some random prophecy said and deciding that it was their 'fate', the world, literally, went to hell.  

[CluelessDrifter]

Just now, Airmid said:

The reapers had to die in order for the seal to break. In that case Alistair had to physically murder them. In Dean's case his soul had to literally give up and then be willing to pick up the knife and spill blood. While Alistair tortured Dean to breaking it was still Dean's hand in the end that chose that, which in reality was just another form of torture.

ALASTAIR: And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in hell. As he breaks, so shall it break.

Interestingly enough, given the prophecy, even with these actions Dean's still seen as a righteous man despite his actions. I'm not saying Dean's a horrible person or that he deserved what he got, only that in the end it was still him and not Alastair because it had to be someone that qualified as righteous. Dean crossed a line though when he wanted the torture to stop, it was that line that he crossed that broke the seal and put everything in motion. 

Alistair also says: We had to break the first seal before any others. 

He isn't talking about we as in 'you and me,' but we as in demons, because he follows it up with:

When we win, when we bring on the apocalypse and burn this earth down, we'll owe it all to you, Dean Winchester.

And couple of lines later Dean says: But even if the demons do win...

It could be argued that he's saying they'll owe it all to Dean because he broke the seal, but Alistair starts it off by saying that 'We,' as in demons 'had to break the first seal before any others.'  And you were right, at the end, Cas says, 'The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can stop it,' but Dean stopping it was done through a passive act as well, as in he was there to connect with Sam, and he was there to be broken at the start, or that's how I see it.

You see it one way.  I see it another.  That's cool. 

15 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Yeah, it does take away their entire story, their history and what they've been through together and it also makes no sense given the rules built up in the first seasons. While not stated it is heavily implied that both heaven and hell believe it has to be Dean that starts it and it has to be Sam that kills Lilith. Otherwise, why not find some other gullible moron to kill Lilith. Why not find another man that qualifies as righteous and have him break the seal.

Yet, we get a world that while we don't know a lot about it, makes it seem rather pointless but still saves the fact that both brothers sacrificed everything to have their own world not look like that. Which is so weird.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this.  It's something that's been bugging me since the final.  :)

22 minutes ago, Airmid said:

If you want my cynical opinion that's because we still had writers who gave a damn about story and trying to write a cohesive unit, along with directors like Kim Manners who tried to do the best with what they had to work with. Even with the giant zag the whole arc took due to the writers strike they still tried their best 1-4 to keep things looking like they belonged together. Season 5 suffers from what appears to be a rather indecisive viewpoint on how to end the season with changes mid-pace that included brining in Adam to take care of the Michael problem they had.

I don't know if that's cynical or accurate.  ; )

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

What I'm saying is, I don't think those were words laid down by Chuck. The prophecies weren't about Sam and Dean specifically, the angels interpreted the prophecies to be about Sam and Dean. Sam and Dean were one of an infinite possible outcomes, the angels in our universe just decided Sam and Dean were the outcome they wanted and then set about making it happen. Which, ironically, was their own undoing. If they hadn't made sure Sam and Dean were born, then the plan would've never been averted.

I think there is still a massive miscommunication somewhere, so I think we'll agree to disagree. :)

[CluelessDrifter]

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

While I can't answer for @DittyDotDot, I would question as to whether the words actually laid down by Chuck (do you mean The Bible? - which is where Revelation and The Apocalypse originate.  Just sayin') said that everything would come down to Sam and Dean.  If it is the Bible to which you are referring from which the prophecy about the Apocolypse comes, then I can definitely state it says Nothing about Sam and Dean Winchester.  ;)  If not the Bible, but some other random prophecy about the end of the world, I still really don't think Chuck was that specific.  

No, I'm not talking about the Bible.  I'm not talking about Nostradamus or any other kind of prophecy that's not in the show.  I'm talking about what Gabriel said, how it ties in with what cupid said and then Michael . . . on the show.  ;)

[Airmid]

47 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You mean the Adam, who as far as we know is still in the cage with Michael?  Lol.  I meant other descendants other than Winchesters.  

That was my point. But it was also a big deal that certain vessels were better than others. Nick was probably a descendant of Abel but not a close one so Lucifer was burning through him. Theoretically he could have taken Mary if that had been an option and been okay, at least for a long while like Michael was with John. They are direct descendants compared to people who just had a little bit of blood that was diluted by other lines kind of thing. 

It was why Sam and Dean were needed. They were strong enough, they were supposed to be destined. Michael had a whole little speech were he droned on about all the chances that happened to get them to that point. Yes, he used cupids but that was just the bloodlines. As far as we know he did zilch for what happened after the couples got together. As far as we know he had zero to do with:

1) Mary saying yes to a deal
2) Mary dying to a demon driving John to hunting and revenge
3) Dean and Sam surviving their childhood at all (though I think he would have brought them back if need be if demons didn't)
4) Zero on how their lives mirrored some of his and Lucifer's
5) John making a deal to go to hell
6) Sam having powers and using them
7) Dean making a deal which breaks the seal
8) Sam listening to a demon and becoming a version of his father on steroids

It wasn't until Dean might actually stop Sam from killing Lilith that the angels stepped in and Zach in his hubris overshared which got Dean to Sam, Sam pulling back and not loosing his humanity and Chuck saving them. Even after that, Michael did squat to protect his vessel from horsemen and near death experiences he so believed that Dean was his one true vessel, his destiny.

Which means Adam makes so little sense really in this story and if Michael was that convinced of his role he should have used Adam to tap dance to earth and pursue Dean that way. Would have been more interesting to me than Lucifer massacring gods but I digress.

With this new universe, none of that matters it seems. Again, while we don't really know a lot about it, it seems like everything was thrown out the window. Maybe it operates on different rules, I don't know but it side rails everything that wasn't already tossed away with the whole first five seasons, those that had the story that Kripke originally was trying to tell.

Wow, sorry that was really long winded. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Airmid
Airmid can't type

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I wasn't really sure where to put this, but I think here is as good as anywhere, since it's a question about 12.23.

How did Sam and Dean not being born make the other universe the way it was?  Did the angels just get some cousin of Mary's to marry some cousin of John's, and they had kids that failed where Dean and Sam succeeded?  

I didn't think it was really about Apocalypse in the Luci v. Michael sense. I thought it was general war between angels & demons, vying for control of the Earth. Didn't Not!Bobby say as much? Or maybe it was Cas telling the boys what Not!Bobby had told him - can't recall exactly. Without Dean & Sam's participation (for good and bad), Luci never got out of the cage, but the angels and demons went to war anyway, and humanity got caught in the crossfire.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't think it was really about Apocalypse in the Luci v. Michael sense. I thought it was general war between angels & demons, vying for control of the Earth. Didn't Not!Bobby say as much? Or maybe it was Cas telling the boys what Not!Bobby had told him - can't recall exactly. Without Dean & Sam's participation (for good and bad), Luci never got out of the cage, but the angels and demons went to war anyway, and humanity got caught in the crossfire.

 

My impression is that Demons and Angels were at war and using the Earth as their war zone. It wasn't clear at all why it started. They only the Maybe!Cas said it was because "You were never born" whether he meant both Sam and Dean or just Sam IMO is unclear depending on how one reads that scene. But at minimum it meant Sam wasn't born. We didn't get the story from not!Bobby directly.

Just to aid in the discussion:

Quote

Sam: Cass, what is this?

Cass: As I said, it's -- it's Earth. But this Earth is locked in eternal war between Heaven and Hell. There are armies of angels fighting hoards of demons, and the few humans that remain are caught in between.

Dean: How do you know that?

 Cass: A friend told me.

Dean: Oh, good. Now you're makin' friends? That's All right, on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad is this?

Sam: [ Scoffs ] I don't know. I gotta say, a, uh, hole in reality to a bombed out Apocalypse world? I'm gonna go with 11. Dean: Sounds right. [ Thunderclap ]

Cass: You don't have to worry. The child, he opened this door. He'll close it.

Dean:You sure about that?

Cass: I have faith.

Dean: Really? In your unborn baby-God?

Cass: Yes.

Dean: Well, then, you're a dumbass.

Sam: Guys. Guys! [ Guns cock ] Hey! Hands in the air!

Cass: No. Don't. [ Thunder rumbling ]

Sam: Bobby? [ Thunderclap ]

Bobby: Do I know you?

Dean: Bobby Sam. Dean. Cass.

Bobby: Uh-huh. You say that like it's supposed to mean something to me, but naw.

Cass: Sam, this is Bobby, but it's your B--

Sam: Bobby, it's us. Sam and Dean Winchester.

Bobby: The only Winchester I ever heard of was John.

Sam: Yeah. John Winchester, our father.

Bobby:[ Scoffs ] Doubt it. He's dead. Been dead over 40 years now. Only reason I know about him is this Hunter I ran with, Mary Campbell. You get a few pints of shine into her, and she always told the same story about the man she loved -- John Winchester. [ Thunderclap ] Azazel killed her about 10 years ago.

Sam: Cass, what the hell is this?

Cass: This is a world where you were never born. It's a world you never saved.

Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s12e23

Quote

Bobby: When this [ Sighs ] whatever opened up, all sorts'a alarms went off back at my place. I got here just in time to see your boy get ambushed by a tempter demon.

Dean: A what?

Cass: It's, um black eyes, pointed teeth, horns.

Sam: Wait a second. Demons have horns now?

Dean: Whole new world, Sam.

Bobby: Usually I gun down flyboys on sight. But, uh, he looked different. Wasn't wearing a necklace made out of baby ears, for one thing.

Cass: We got to talking about where I came from and our two worlds. [ Thunderclap ]

Bobby: From what he says, pretty much peaches and cream on your side.

Dean: Oh, I wouldn't say that. It's better than this.

Bobby: Well, I don't know. Ain't so bad here, if you like killing angels.

Dean: And you do?

Bobby: It's my hobby and my passion. So I figured, it's only a matter of time before the dicks upstairs get wind'a this. And when they show me and Rufus go to work. He's loaded with a hundred rounds, cast from old angel blades. [ Thunder rumbling ]

Dean: Wait, angel-killing bullets? Awesome. [ Chuckles ] [ Screams ] [ Crying ] Okay. Okay. [ Sniffling ] [ Continues crying ] You're okay. [ Whoosh ]

Cass: Are you all right?

Dean: No, Cass. Pretty far from all right. I mean, we've got Lucifer on this side, we've got Mad Max World on that side. I mean, yeah, we've been down before, but this? I-I mean, I don't even know where to start. Oh, come on!

Read more: http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=supernatural&episode=s12e23

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't think it was really about Apocalypse in the Luci v. Michael sense. I thought it was general war between angels & demons, vying for control of the Earth. Didn't Not!Bobby say as much? Or maybe it was Cas telling the boys what Not!Bobby had told him - can't recall exactly. Without Dean & Sam's participation (for good and bad), Luci never got out of the cage, but the angels and demons went to war anyway, and humanity got caught in the crossfire.

This is what I thought as well. I think I said something pretty much like this a couple pages back on this thread.

To me, this makes sense, because if Michael and Lucifer had managed to find vessels, I think something... different would've happened than what we are seeing in the other reality. Either one would've won the battle - which would look different (i.e. Lucifer would've burned the place down or Michael would've ushered in "paradise" - whatever that might be) - or they would still be fighting, which I would think would also look different or would be something Bobby would've mentioned.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

They only the Maybe!Cas said it was because "You were never born" whether he meant both Sam and Dean or just Sam IMO is unclear depending on how one reads that scene. But at minimum it meant Sam wasn't born. We didn't get the story from not!Bobby directly.

We did learn that Mary never married John, so therefore there was no Dean either.

If the implication was that it was only because Sam was never born that caused teh world not to be saved, in my opinion, that wouldn't make much sense, because how would that supposedly give us the current alternate world situation? As I said above, I think any situation that would have resulted in Michael and/or Lucifer being raised by someone else would have resulted in one of the situations described in season 5 - half the world being destroyed at best with "paradise" for the rest (which wouldn't look like the current situation) or the world as Lucifer's playground - which likely wouldn't have any people at all in it... or demons for that matter. Alternate Bobby didn't mention horsemen or anything like that, which would have been an issue if only Lucifer was raised... and there would probably have been "Croats" like we saw in the alternate timeline in "The End."

In fact if that future in "The End" was an actual representation of what would have happened if Dean hadn't reconnected with Sam, I can't imagine that Sam's contribution alone would have lead to saving the world. The implication there was that without Dean around, Sam would've said "yes" and the world would've gone to shit. So we already have heavily implied canon on that point.

I'm going to stick with no Sam and Dean = demon and angel chaos whee no one is leading them. And if Dean would have been around, theoretically Michael would have his preferred vessel and the angels would organize behind him and kick ass. For me the only reason that the demons are not getting their asses kicked by the angels is that the angels are also fighting each other - like Uriel was doing in season 5. So for me angel chaos means that no Dean was just as important as no Sam - maybe based on "The End" even more so.

Just my thinking on that.

[catrox14]

I guess I'm trying to figure out whether Michael or Lucifer ever existed in this other universe. The only thing we learned is that Angels and demons fought each other on Earth2.

Is there an assumption made that everything else was the same? I'm pretty confused on this point TBH. I read back through the transcript and I don't see Archangels mentioned.

Maybe archangels didn't exist in on Earth2? Or have I completely missed the boat here?

[CluelessDrifter]

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't think it was really about Apocalypse in the Luci v. Michael sense. I thought it was general war between angels & demons, vying for control of the Earth. Didn't Not!Bobby say as much? Or maybe it was Cas telling the boys what Not!Bobby had told him - can't recall exactly. Without Dean & Sam's participation (for good and bad), Luci never got out of the cage, but the angels and demons went to war anyway, and humanity got caught in the crossfire.

My general thinking of it was that it was implied that things in that universe were the same, it's just that Mary didn't make a deal with Azazel to bring John back, and as a result Sam and Dean were never born, so that world was never saved.  Interestingly, some kind of fate or destiny still caused Mary to die when John did in the SPN universe and at the hands of Azazel.  Anyway, all of that is why I thought the purpose of this AU was for it to be used as a lesson for Mary and maybe the others to see what her deal really meant.  I also got that from when Cas says, "This is a world where you were never born. It's a world you never saved," mostly due to his tone.

Edited May 31, 2017 by CluelessDrifter
clarity

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I'm trying to figure out whether Michael or Lucifer ever existed in this other universe. The only thing we learned is that Angels and demons fought each other on Earth2.

Is there an assumption made that everything else was the same? I'm pretty confused on this point TBH. I read back through the transcript and I don't see Archangels mentioned.

Maybe archangels didn't exist in on Earth2? Or have I completely missed the boat here?

I was always confused on whether or not the archangels existed outside of time. It would be pretty hard to rule the universe if one was subjected to being trapped in the same boundaries as the rest of creation. God has no such limitations and the archangels, who were created before everything else supposedly (or at least at a period before the present creation) would have existed outside of time. The angelic choir seems to have been made quite a ways later and would be subject to existing in time. 

Which then means, if they exist outside of time and therefore outside of the boundaries of creation are there are only one Michael and one Lucifer? Is the reason this world has been warring is because their contact with Michael/Lucifer has been cut off (i.e. they fell to the cage or long before that even) and they have no orders? Did Michael/Lucifer just pick the world to oversee their big fight that had their true vessels and ignore the others? If so, how do the other worlds fare during the battle and the aftermath? How did the other worlds fare before? Did Michael shop around for his true vessels? Was the raising of paradise or destruction of humanity (depending on who won) spread across all the worlds or just the one that bore the brunt of the battle as their lucky consolation prize?

Does this world actually exist as a true parallel universe or is that something that was created by Sproutifer as a what if based on information he has received and is not it's own true entity? 

Have we put more thought into this question than the entire writing team?

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

To me, this makes sense, because if Michael and Lucifer had managed to find vessels, I think something... different would've happened than what we are seeing in the other reality. Either one would've won the battle - which would look different (i.e. Lucifer would've burned the place down or Michael would've ushered in "paradise" - whatever that might be) - or they would still be fighting, which I would think would also look different or would be something Bobby would've mentioned.

I thought they were still fighting; they were locked in perpetual war because neither was strong enough to kill the other. And, I assume this is what would've happened in our universe if Sam and Dean hadn't removed Michael and Lucifer from the equation altogether. Without Michael and Lucifer each faction falls to chaos and there is no war.

5 hours ago, Airmid said:

Does this world actually exist as a true parallel universe or is that something that was created by Sproutifer as a what if based on information he has received and is not it's own true entity? 

I think it exists as a true parallel universe..

But, this got me wondering if the alternate universe is what Cass saw as the future? Not the alternate universe as it is now, but if the spawn doesn't end up bringing peace to the alternate reality and that's what Cass saw?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

44 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, I assume this is what would've happened in our universe if Sam and Dean hadn't removed Michael and Lucifer from the equation altogether.

To be honest, I'm not sure that this isn't what would have happened in 'our' (the SPN) universe even if Sam and Dean had said yes to Lucifer and Michael.  Michael said he would win.  Lucifer also thought he would win.  When Mike cast Luci in the cage in the first place, he also had the other archangels and Chuck to help.  This (that) time around, Chuck wasn't helping, most (all?) of the other archangels were dead, and there were a LOT more demons (and knights of Hell apparently) to help Lucifer.  

Bottom line: if Michael and Lucifer fought each other in any way, in any vessels, I could still see that turning into the perpetual war of the AU world.  It was only because Dean said No to Michael (and also convinced Cas along the way not to play along with 'the plan': "Hey assbutt") and was able to help Sam overcome Lucifer long enough to jump in the pit that averted the war.  

[DittyDotDot]

35 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

To be honest, I'm not sure that this isn't what would have happened in 'our' (the SPN) universe even if Sam and Dean had said yes to Lucifer and Michael.

That's what I meant.  I don't think the vessels actually mattered, in the end. What mattered was removing both Michael and Lucifer from the board altogether. In any universe, if Micheal and Lucifer fought, no one wins and the planet it toast.

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I meant.  I don't think the vessels actually mattered, in the end. What mattered was removing both Michael and Lucifer from the board altogether. In any universe, if Micheal and Lucifer fought, no one wins and the planet it toast.

I think Dean & Sam being the vessels is what mattered. Once Luci was out of the cage, the Lucifer/Michael prize fight was inevitable, but they each felt they needed their one true vessel to be strong enough to win. In some sense, that turned out to be true, because Adam/Michael was not strong enough to stop Sam/Lucifer dragging him along into the pit, the only way that both archangels were removed from the board. If Heaven's goal was to bring 'paradise' to Earth, then with only Luci removed, this Doom!World scenario might still have happened as angels & demons went to war.

[Katy M]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If Heaven's goal was to bring 'paradise' to Earth, then with only Luci removed, this Doom!World scenario might still have happened as angels & demons went to war.

I don't even know what Heaven's goal was in the SPN universe.  Their version of all this makes no sense.  At least not to me.  I mean, it always seemed to me on show that God was against his own Apocalyptic plan.  Why?  It was his plan, right?

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't even know what Heaven's goal was in the SPN universe.  Their version of all this makes no sense.  At least not to me.  I mean, it always seemed to me on show that God was against his own Apocalyptic plan.  Why?  It was his plan, right?

I'm of the opinion it was not his plan. I think God had no concrete plan; he created things then sat back to see what would happen, IMO. But, the angels (Heaven) needed a plan. They needed structure and a purpose so they twisted some vague prophecies into Daddy's plan and went forth trying to make that happen. I don't even believe the angels wanted paradise on Earth, they just wanted a purpose to fulfill.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

58 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

That's what I meant.  I don't think the vessels actually mattered, in the end. What mattered was removing both Michael and Lucifer from the board altogether. In any universe, if Micheal and Lucifer fought, no one wins and the planet it toast.

Gotcha!  I concur.  :D

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm of the opinion it was not his plan. I think God had no concrete plan; he created things then sat back to see what would happen, IMO. But, the angels (Heaven) needed a plan. They needed structure and a purpose so they twisted some vague prophecies into Daddy's plan and went forth trying to make that happen. I don't even believe the angels wanted paradise on Earth, they just wanted a purpose to fulfill.

But, while alone, Michael and Lucifer said it was one of Dad's tests.  And Michael said they had to fight because he was a good son.  It seems like they would know.  And, I'm sure you're right about angels not wanting paradise on earth.  Most of them couldn't stand humans.  They called them mud monkeys. So, it's hard to see what their point was either.  Why not just stay in Heaven and let humans do what they want on earth.   I'm sticking with my original statement that it makes zero sense, but it was enjoyable to watch all the same, which probably also makes zero sense.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

And, I'm sure you're right about angels not wanting paradise on earth.  Most of them couldn't stand humans.  They called them mud monkeys. So, it's hard to see what their point was either.  Why not just stay in Heaven and let humans do what they want on earth.  

I could see it happening if angels wanted earth too, and maybe some of them - like Lucifer - were jealous of the humans. It seemed like the current battle in the alternative universe - from what we saw - was more about control and real estate. It didn't appear that either faction gave a crap about what happened to the humans.

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

And, I assume this is what would've happened in our universe if Sam and Dean hadn't removed Michael and Lucifer from the equation altogether. Without Michael and Lucifer each faction falls to chaos and there is no war.

I guess I always interpreted what Zachariah said as if Michael and Lucifer fought in strong vessels there would be actual destruction - like physical destruction of the planet. That was why he wanted Dean to say "yes" right away before Lucifer found his right vessel - though their plan wasn't all that great to begin with since they pretty much let Lucifer's vessel be right there where he could get it, but I digress. Anyway, it sounded like to me even then under the perfect conditions - Michael in Dean, Lucifer in an inferior vessel, quick battle, and done - that half the planet might potentially be kaput, dead, damaged, or all 3. Based on that description, if Michael and Lucifer had been fighting for years in this alternate timeline, I wouldn't expect anything to be left.

For me the war the current universe was showing could be the result of chaos... power struggles between demons and angels, demons and demons, and angels and angels all vying to be the leader - like the angel wars and Azazel's armies all colliding on earth. Oh, likely Azazel is still alive? (No Dean to kill him). Maybe his demon army- lead by Jake or Ava - started the whole conflict?

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me the war the current universe was showing could be the result of chaos... power struggles between demons and angels, demons and demons, and angels and angels all vying to be the leader - like the angel wars and Azazel's armies all colliding on earth. Oh, likely Azazel is still alive? (No Dean to kill him). Maybe his demon army- lead by Jake or Ava - started the whole conflict?

Azazel is/was alive in the AU because he killed Mary.  The question is why did he kill Mary. Not!Bobby said he ran with Mary until Azazel killed her and that sounds to me like she was just one of the humans that were caught between the War between Heaven and Hell. Maybe the Human Army trying to fend off both the Angels and the Demons in the AU.

 

I guess I still keep coming back to the idea that whatever went down in the AU isn't necessarily related to Lucifer or Michael. Or am I missing something big from that episode? I still think archangels don't necessarily exist in the AU or maybe Lucifer and Michael are not archangels in the AU and just regular angels.

[Airmid]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I still keep coming back to the idea that whatever went down in the AU isn't necessarily related to Lucifer or Michael. Or am I missing something big from that episode? I still think archangels don't necessarily exist in the AU or maybe Lucifer and Michael are not archangels in the AU and just regular angels.

Seeing that the archangels were created before time existed along with creation (Amara is stated to have kept destroying everything up to that point and Chuck used his new kids to lock her away so he could actually create) it opens a whole can of worms. If the archangels are not bound to creation or time (which would have made the most sense for them having any kind of control) then that means there's only four of them and now parallel worlds to keep track of. 

Which kind of puts Michael's speech about all the millions of little chances having to have happened to get true vessels into a whole new light.

It also would answer the question as to why heaven and hell would engage in war if the archangels themselves weren't around to keep some kind of order.

I honestly don't like parallel universes, especially when the established lore for a story has multiple planes of existence to boot because those planes of existence may or may not be part of each earth or may exist entirely separate from each parallel.

Fringe I think is the only show I've actually liked with this concept but they did put a lot of thought into it. I worry that it hasn't been well thought out here.

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess I always interpreted what Zachariah said as if Michael and Lucifer fought in strong vessels there would be actual destruction - like physical destruction of the planet. That was why he wanted Dean to say "yes" right away before Lucifer found his right vessel - though their plan wasn't all that great to begin with since they pretty much let Lucifer's vessel be right there where he could get it, but I digress.

I always got the impression that they wanted Dean to realize that this was how it had to be. Sam would be grabbed by Lucifer on his way up, lost to the devil and his own rage that consumed his humanity. Then Dean would have to say yes because it would be the only way to free Sam from at least that while saving the world. I think a huge part of their plan hinged on Dean loosing Sam. Cas and Dean interrupted that (resulting in Cas dying, even Chuck states the angels didn't want anyone to know what was to go and to let the boys walk into everything) and then Chuck saving both of them last minute allowing them to save earth.

Otherwise I think the angels could care less about humanity. They always thought Michael would win with Dean and nothing else mattered. Their downfall was Zach oversharing and letting Dean in on the whole 'let it happen' plan. 

[Goldmoon]

I was wondering what the "meta" thing was in the finale.  I didn't see anything that could be described as meta.  Thoughts?

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

I was wondering what the "meta" thing was in the finale.  I didn't see anything that could be described as meta.  Thoughts?

Probably the mention of the French Mistake

The other thought I had was maybe it was the line Mark wrote that was on his T-shirt to raise money for  childhood diabetes charity which was cut.

Edited May 31, 2017 by catrox14

[gonzosgirrl]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Probably the mention of the French Mistake

The other thought I had was maybe it was the line Mark wrote that was on his T-shirt to raise money for  childhood diabetes charity which was cut.

But Dabb described it as the 'most meta finale we've ever done'. One line doesn't really fit that bill. That said, I have no clue what the meta was supposed to be. I could have seen it if maybe Not!Bobby's name was Jim Beaver in the Doom!World, but seriously, I've got nuthin'.

LOL maybe he saw an advance screener of the Lucifer (on Fox) finale and thought...

Spoiler

the Giant Glowing Golden Vagina of Doom was Meta, since they also had one in their finale.

Edited May 31, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Dabb described it as the 'most meta finale we've ever done'. One line doesn't really fit that bill. That said, I have no clue what the meta was supposed to be. I could have seen it if maybe Not!Bobby's name was Jim Beaver in the Doom!World, but seriously, I've got nuthin'.

Maybe Jared has leading/following issues?  Maybe.. you're right, I got nothin'.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Dabb described it as the 'most meta finale we've ever done'. One line doesn't really fit that bill. That said, I have no clue what the meta was supposed to be. I could have seen it if maybe Not!Bobby's name was Jim Beaver in the Doom!World, but seriously, I've got nuthin'.

LOL maybe he saw an advance screener of the Lucifer (on Fox) finale and thought..

Yeah, sometimes what Dabb thinks is something is often not that thing. 'Generals leading there troops into battle' Well that was ONE general, 'cosmic consequences' for nullifying Billie's deal after Cas killer her...did that happen?

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, sometimes what Dabb thinks is something is often not that thing. 'Generals leading there troops into battle' Well that was ONE general, 'cosmic consequences' for nullifying Billie's deal after Cas killer her...did that happen?

Funny how the part about Dean not getting any gratification for being right about the BMoL was pretty damn accurate though, huh? /bitterDean!girl sarcasm

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Funny how the part about Dean not getting any gratification for being right about the BMoL was pretty damn accurate though, huh? /bitterDean!girl sarcasm

Heh. Fair point!

[MysteryGuest]

39 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Funny how the part about Dean not getting any gratification for being right about the BMoL was pretty damn accurate though, huh? /bitterDean!girl sarcasm

I actually think they did pretty well in acknowledging that Dean's instincts were sound.  Sam explained to Dean why he had followed them, and was pretty self-critical, I thought.  And then again during the infamous speech, he put the blame totally on himself.  As a Dean fan, I was pretty happy with that.  I don't think anything more was required.  If they had made a bigger deal out of it, I think that would have been wrong.  Dean did agree to go along with them, and I don't think he was looking for any sort of apology.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Dabb described it as the 'most meta finale we've ever done'. One line doesn't really fit that bill. That said, I have no clue what the meta was supposed to be. I could have seen it if maybe Not!Bobby's name was Jim Beaver in the Doom!World, but seriously, I've got nuthin'.

I wonder if the meta comment was related to the alternate universe being a "what could've been" thing? I mean, maybe they're going to play around with the alternate universe and make Jo male or put Castiel in Claire's body or John bought that Volkswagen instead of the Impala, or...?

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

Edited June 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I wonder if the meta comment was related to the alternate universe being a "what could've been" thing? I mean, maybe they're going to play around with the alternate universe and make Jo male or put Castiel in Claire's body or....?

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

The other thought I had is if Crowley's dialogue was meta about Mark's departure? Tired of his job, etc etc?

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wonder if the meta comment was related to the alternate universe being a "what could've been" thing? I mean, maybe they're going to play around with the alternate universe and make Jo male or put Castiel in Claire's body or John bought that Volkswagen instead of the Impala, or...?

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

But that wouldn't be the finale, which he specifically said. Honestly, at this point I don't think Dabb watches his own show.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But that wouldn't be the finale, which he specifically said. Honestly, at this point I don't think Dabb watches his own show.

Oh, I guess I was confused, I thought Dabb was referring to the finale with the Meta stuff. Maybe he was thinking of them as one episode? Maybe I was conflating?

No wait, that was the finale. Crowley didn't show up in the penultimate that I can recall

Edited June 1, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh, I guess I was confused, I thought Dabb was referring to the finale with the Meta stuff. Maybe he was thinking of them as one episode? Maybe I was conflating?

No wait, that was the finale. Crowley didn't show up in the penultimate that I can recall

He didn't. Crowley was totally MIA for the second last episode, which was entirely focused on hunters vs British Man of Letters. 

[CluelessDrifter]

12 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But Dabb described it as the 'most meta finale we've ever done'. One line doesn't really fit that bill. That said, I have no clue what the meta was supposed to be. I could have seen it if maybe Not!Bobby's name was Jim Beaver in the Doom!World, but seriously, I've got nuthin'.

I think, technically, that even one line makes it the most meta finale they've done.  I can't think of any other lines in any of the other finales that could be considered meta, unless I'm forgetting something.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But that wouldn't be the finale, which he specifically said. Honestly, at this point I don't think Dabb watches his own show.

It depends how literal you want to be about it? 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I think, technically, that even one line makes it the most meta finale they've done.  I can't think of any other lines in any of the other finales that could be considered meta, unless I'm forgetting something.

I keep hearing Inigo Montoya in my head (to Dabb). You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Heheh.

Edited June 1, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[CluelessDrifter]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I keep hearing Inigo Montoya in my head. You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. Heheh.

And for that, I'm truly grateful.  You have no idea how many terrible meta scenarios I had going through my head before the episode given I don't think we have any writers who could do good meta anymore, so when the line happened, I was like, 'that's it?' and breathed a sigh of relief.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

And for that, I'm truly grateful.  You have no idea how many terrible meta scenarios I had going through my head before the episode given I don't think we have any writers who could do good meta anymore, so when the line happened, I was like, 'that's it?' and breathed a sigh of relief.

Are you talking about the reference to The French Mistake? I don't see how that can be considered meta since it's something that actually happened to Dean & Sam in the show. It was a meta episode for sure, but Dean and Sam remembering it isn't. Aaaaand... now my head hurts.

[CluelessDrifter]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Are you talking about the reference to The French Mistake? I don't see how that can be considered meta since it's something that actually happened to Dean & Sam in the show. It was a meta episode for sure, but Dean and Sam remembering it isn't. Aaaaand... now my head hurts.

Yeah, I am, and I would consider that meta. 'Where we were uh, uh actors on a TV show (...) The supernatural wasn't real (...) And you were Polish' . . . a reference to an episode that is the definition of meta and bringing up how it was meta would thereby make it meta.  :)

Edited June 1, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[poppy-]

This episode felt like fanfiction to me , with visiting an AU that makes sense only the the context of the show's mythology and if some events from previous seasons didn't happen.  Which is not the precise definition of meta, but it's in the ballpark.

[catrox14]

Putting this under a spoiler tag because it's gross body gore.  BTS pics of Dean's messed up leg. It looks a lot worse up close.  EWWWWW but awesome make up!  Seriously. It's kind of stomach turning. Not exaggerating.

Spoiler

 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Putting this under a spoiler tag because it's gross body gore.  BTS pics of Dean's messed up leg. It looks a lot worse up close.  EWWWWW but awesome make up!  Seriously. It's kind of stomach turning. Not exaggerating.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Firstly, yep, gross!! Amazing job from the f/x people.

Secondly, that's a lot of thigh in that last pic. Yep, definitely worth it. :D