Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show

[BakerStreet]

I really have no idea what you're talking about, Hotchgirl18. I see the show differently than you do. They deal with the MIND of the unsub every episode. 

[Hotchgirl18]

23 minutes ago, BakerStreet said:

I really have no idea what you're talking about, Hotchgirl18. I see the show differently than you do. They deal with the MIND of the unsub every episode. 

Watch something from season one or two. Then jump to a season twelve episode. I want to see the team profiling. Actually analyzing and spitballing ideas. I want to see conflict. I don't wanna see twenty five minutes of the unsub doing what he does. What's the point when we already know who he is? 

[JMO]

8 hours ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Inspirational. Goody -goody. Every now and then, it's fine, but when we get Prentiss's "big speech" in 12x21 and 13x1, I want to gag. She's leading a team that chases serial murderers, not motivating high school students. It feels really out of place in the show.

Here's something we can agree on. There have been two scenes ('take one moment', and I forget the other) where  poor Emily had these extremely trite words put into her mouth by the writers.  I may have been projecting, but it looked to me like Paget was having trouble getting them out with a straight face. 

[Unkempt]

JJ roundhouse kicked someone six seasons ago, but I haven't seen any super ninja skillz since then.  Other than that, I like JJ.  I do miss her being the media liaison, but I don't get why so many people have such a problem with having a couple of strong women on the show.  She's dealing with creeps for a living, so if she HADN'T been trained to defend herself, then her employer would certainly be dropping the ball.  I will admit that I thought that the roundhouse kick was a little much at the time, but whatevs.  It's a TV show.  I can't get too hot under the collar over it.  It wasn't even half as ridiculous as the Rick Grimes landfill brawl on the Walking Dead this week.  All shows are allowed to be eyeroll worthy once in a while.  NBD.

 

I WILL agree with you, Hotchgirl, on the profiling.  I wish there were more!  They've been getting better about it recently, I think, but it seems like the show back in the old days was more about the profile (the building of it and how they reached those conclusions), while now it's more about how weird can the unsub be each week.  But like I said - 13 year old show.  You do eventually run out of ideas, and you have to keep it new and fresh or you throw in the towel.  There are only so many Ted Bundys out there, and if they did Ted Bundy every....single...week, it would get tiresome very fast.

[Hotchgirl18]

5 hours ago, JMO said:

Here's something we can agree on. There have been two scenes ('take one moment', and I forget the other) where  poor Emily had these extremely trite words put into her mouth by the writers.  I may have been projecting, but it looked to me like Paget was having trouble getting them out with a straight face. 

As far as I'm concerned Emily Prentiss can take her inspirational speeches and shove them. Let's get a real leader. I have no sympathy for her. Get a job as a life coach. 

2 hours ago, Unkempt said:

JJ roundhouse kicked someone six seasons ago, but I haven't seen any super ninja skillz since then.  Other than that, I like JJ.  I do miss her being the media liaison, but I don't get why so many people have such a problem with having a couple of strong women on the show.  She's dealing with creeps for a living, so if she HADN'T been trained to defend herself, then her employer would certainly be dropping the ball.  I will admit that I thought that the roundhouse kick was a little much at the time, but whatevs.  It's a TV show.  I can't get too hot under the collar over it.  It wasn't even half as ridiculous as the Rick Grimes landfill brawl on the Walking Dead this week.  All shows are allowed to be eyeroll worthy once in a while.  NBD.

 

I WILL agree with you, Hotchgirl, on the profiling.  I wish there were more!  They've been getting better about it recently, I think, but it seems like the show back in the old days was more about the profile (the building of it and how they reached those conclusions), while now it's more about how weird can the unsub be each week.  But like I said - 13 year old show.  You do eventually run out of ideas, and you have to keep it new and fresh or you throw in the towel.  There are only so many Ted Bundys out there, and if they did Ted Bundy every....single...week, it would get tiresome very fast.

I saw the sneak peek for False Flag. And once again, superwoman JJ is saving everything. She just think she's so perfect and she's the only one allowed to have a relatively normal life. Lose Unit Chief Life Coach and Superwoman and the show would be much better. Replace them with Fryne Fisher. 

They're not even TRYING to keep it fresh anymore. They're recycling older, more classic episodes and giving them a new name. Neon Terror=Limelight. 

[Unkempt]

Sure, but part of leadership is motivating and inspiring your team.  Hotch did it, too.  Heck, MY boss does it, too, LOL!  Remember Hotch's "go finish that movie" quote to Reid?  Or what about when he came in on his own time to give Reid private shooting lessons?  Or when he cleaned Elle's apartment after she was attacked?  And remember the time he sent flowers to Garcia and signed Gideon's name, then reminded Gideon that "people need to know they're important"? 

 

JJ isn't the only one with a "normal life."  The new guy has a wife and kids at home, so did Kate when she was on the team, so did Walker, and so did Morgan at the end.  Besides "wife/husband and kids at home" isn't the only "normal" out there.  Not everyone wants that.  Maybe for Luke, going home to a dog is "normal," or for Reid, going home to his fish is "normal."

 

Let's just say....if I ever need rescuing from the FBI, I'd hope that agent IS a superwoman/superman because I'd like to survive my unfortunate ordeal.  Lord help me if they're not.  ;)  

[Hotchgirl18]

10 minutes ago, Unkempt said:

Sure, but part of leadership is motivating and inspiring your team.  Hotch did it, too.  Heck, MY boss does it, too, LOL!  Remember Hotch's "go finish that movie" quote to Reid?  Or what about when he came in on his own time to give Reid private shooting lessons?  Or when he cleaned Elle's apartment after she was attacked?  And remember the time he sent flowers to Garcia and signed Gideon's name, then reminded Gideon that "people need to know they're important"? 

 

JJ isn't the only one with a "normal life."  The new guy has a wife and kids at home, so did Kate when she was on the team, so did Walker, and so did Morgan at the end.  Besides "wife/husband and kids at home" isn't the only "normal" out there.  Not everyone wants that.  Maybe for Luke, going home to a dog is "normal," or for Reid, going home to his fish is "normal."

 

Let's just say....if I ever need rescuing from the FBI, I'd hope that agent IS a superwoman/superman because I'd like to survive my unfortunate ordeal.  Lord help me if they're not.  ;)  

Hotch never interrupted the progress of the case to deliver a motivational speech to the team. There's a fine line between motivating your team and turning it into one of those "stand and deliver movies." There is a time and a place. When your team is tasked with catching a serial killer who framed one of your agents for murder, now is not the time or place. 

[Unkempt]

I don't recall Prentiss interrupting anything, but maybe I'm remembering wrong?  I thought she gave the speech in the conference room before they even flew out of Quantico?  That's an ok time for a speech, as opposed to when they're in the field with guns drawn (that would be inappropriate).  It was especially ok since the team had recently been terrorized and one of the members unjustly imprisoned....I'm sure you can see how that might make a dent in team morale.

[AsYouWish]

What would you all pick as your favorite seasons and episodes? Or at least the ones you end up watching most often, lol. I'd said 4 and 5 were my favorites, but so many of my top go to episodes that I watch over and over are from the first three seasons. I am very excited to see which episodes other people find themselves watching again and again!

[Hotchgirl18]

4 minutes ago, AsYouWish said:

What would you all pick as your favorite seasons and episodes? Or at least the ones you end up watching most often, lol. I'd said 4 and 5 were my favorites, but so many of my top go to episodes that I watch over and over are from the first three seasons. I am very excited to see which episodes other people find themselves watching again and again!

3 and 4. 9, 10, and 11 were alright! 

[ReidFan]

It's hard. My favourite episodes were in 2, 3, 4, 10, 11, 12 and 13... 

as for episodes I watch over and over:

LDSK, Fisher King 1 (season 1)

Fisher King 2, Revelations (season 2)

Elephant's Memory (season 3)

Amplification, Minimal Loss, Instincts, Memoriam,  (Season 4)

Mr Scratch (season 10)

Entropy (season 11)

Green Light, Red Light, Spencer, Unforgettable (season 12)

Wheels Up (season 13) so far

[Old Dog]

I'll watch most of the episodes in the first five seasons over and over. After that it gets really patchy and over the last five seasons there are only a couple of memorable episodes in each season for me. I find it hard to even remember most of the other episodes although there are some absolute shockers that are memorable for the wrong reasons like 200, The Black Queen, Brothers Hotchner, Route 66, Awake etc!

[Hotchgirl18]

8 hours ago, Old Dog said:

I'll watch most of the episodes in the first five seasons over and over. After that it gets really patchy and over the last five seasons there are only a couple of memorable episodes in each season for me. I find it hard to even remember most of the other episodes although there are some absolute shockers that are memorable for the wrong reasons like 200, The Black Queen, Brothers Hotchner, Route 66, Awake etc!

The Bond is another one we can add to the "memorable" list ! Brothers Hotchner wasn't bad at all, in my opinion. It was better than the other ones listed. 

[ReidFan]

dammit.... missed season 10's Nelson's Sparrow. Another one I would and do watch over and over and.....

[ReidGirl]

On 05/01/2018 at 2:13 AM, AsYouWish said:

What would you all pick as your favorite seasons and episodes? Or at least the ones you end up watching most often, lol. I'd said 4 and 5 were my favorites, but so many of my top go to episodes that I watch over and over are from the first three seasons. I am very excited to see which episodes other people find themselves watching again and again!

I absolutely love first 4 seasons. Season 4 and 1 are my most favourite seasons.

[normasm]

I only watch part of Nelson's Sparrow, the Reid parts. The Unsub is gross, and the flashbacks do absolutely nothing for me.

[JMO]

52 minutes ago, normasm said:

I only watch part of Nelson's Sparrow, the Reid parts. The Unsub is gross, and the flashbacks do absolutely nothing for me.

I feel the same way about the episode.  I watch it with my finger firmly on the fast forward button.  I don't mind the JJ/Garcia scenes, as I like both of them in this episode.  But I only enjoyed the flashbacks for their curiosity factor, and am not inclined to watch them again.  And absolutely nothing about the unsub was palatable, including the scene where Rossi killed him.

[normasm]

Yeah, I liked Hotch and Morgan in this one also, and Rossi, except for the killing scene. 

[Annber03]

Aw, I like the flashback scenes in "Nelson's Sparrow", myself, mainly 'cause young Gideon and Rossi are so good together and I really like the way they want to help that woman find her daughter. Plus, as a "Boy Meets World" fan, it's just a kick to watch Ben Savage in that episode in general :D. 

I agree that the unsub is gross, though, and I do tend to not focus as much on his scenes when watching. 

But yeah, as a whole, "Nelson's Sparrow" is definitely one of my favorite episodes from season 10, too. That ending always brings tears to my eyes. 

As for @AsYouWish's initial question, my absolute favorite seasons are 2 through 4. Most of my favorite episodes are in there, and I think overall they were the strongest and most consistent seasons. After that, seasons 1, 5, 7, and 9 would probably be in there to some degree, and then there'd be a third tier after that. Honestly, though, I like every season to some degree or another. 

Regarding episodes I like to watch a lot..."Revelations", "Memoriam", "Sex, Birth, Death", "Elephant's Memory", and "True Genius" would definitely be in that list. I've also seen "Lo-Fi" and "Mayhem" a lot mainly because those get rerun a lot on TV (and I do like those episodes in and of themselves, too), as did "Pleasure is My Business"-I remember when I first started getting into the show, they seemed to show that episode a LOT on A&E. 

But yeah, between all the marathons on TV and my own DVD viewing, I'm pretty sure I could say that about a good portion of the show's episodes to some degree, really :p. 

[Hotchgirl18]

On 1/6/2018 at 10:38 PM, Annber03 said:

Aw, I like the flashback scenes in "Nelson's Sparrow", myself, mainly 'cause young Gideon and Rossi are so good together and I really like the way they want to help that woman find her daughter. Plus, as a "Boy Meets World" fan, it's just a kick to watch Ben Savage in that episode in general :D. 

I agree that the unsub is gross, though, and I do tend to not focus as much on his scenes when watching. 

But yeah, as a whole, "Nelson's Sparrow" is definitely one of my favorite episodes from season 10, too. That ending always brings tears to my eyes. 

As for @AsYouWish's initial question, my absolute favorite seasons are 2 through 4. Most of my favorite episodes are in there, and I think overall they were the strongest and most consistent seasons. After that, seasons 1, 5, 7, and 9 would probably be in there to some degree, and then there'd be a third tier after that. Honestly, though, I like every season to some degree or another. 

Regarding episodes I like to watch a lot..."Revelations", "Memoriam", "Sex, Birth, Death", "Elephant's Memory", and "True Genius" would definitely be in that list. I've also seen "Lo-Fi" and "Mayhem" a lot mainly because those get rerun a lot on TV (and I do like those episodes in and of themselves, too), as did "Pleasure is My Business"-I remember when I first started getting into the show, they seemed to show that episode a LOT on A&E. 

But yeah, between all the marathons on TV and my own DVD viewing, I'm pretty sure I could say that about a good portion of the show's episodes to some degree, really :p. 

Seasons 4 and 9 are my favorites. Season 12 is my least favorite.  Episodes i watch a lot are "Gaby," " Omnivore, " and "Bloodline."

[Mislav]

Something just occurred to me. Are the casting changes one the reasons why we are so displeased by the actual plots of the current episodes-well, recent episodes in general? 

 

 

Now, I am not denying that later seasons feature much less profile work than the early ones, and that the unsubs keep getting more and more over the top. I have complained about that multiple times. But if the current seasons still featured the characters we all know and love, the one who had (mostly) been featured from the beginning, or earlier seasons in general... would we be more willing to overlook the preposterousness of some plots, at least in part? If there were still just Hotch, Spencer, Derek, JJ, Garcia, and Emily, or Alex Blake, or heck, even Kate Callahan, would we enjoy the episodes more? Because casting changes combined with the plot changes really make it seem like we are watching an almost completely different show-and not a really good one.

 

 

I guess it is especially frustrating to me, because I'm a creative person with plenty of ideas, a lot of which include fairly original case plots and an actual profiling. (I'm modest too!) But taking in the account my lack of... practical experience in the field, slight social anxiety, a numerous competition, and an "official" work and studies to focus on, I have little to no chances of my ideas and scripts even being taken into consideration. So we keep getting the same crap over and over again. Blah.

[ReidFan]

pretty sure that for legal reasons, nobody's fanfiction, email to a writer or producer, idea or script would ever be used by the show's writers. Unless things have changed from the Star Trek days, anything sent to a staff member is returned unopened/certified destroyed/whatever. They don't want to/are not allowed to tread into the mud puddle that would arise if they 'took' someone's idea.

not to mention the wanna-be contributor would need representation. It's just not done freelance.

[Mislav]

5 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

pretty sure that for legal reasons, nobody's fanfiction, email to a writer or producer, idea or script would ever be used by the show's writers. Unless things have changed from the Star Trek days, anything sent to a staff member is returned unopened/certified destroyed/whatever. They don't want to/are not allowed to tread into the mud puddle that would arise if they 'took' someone's idea.

not to mention the wanna-be contributor would need representation. It's just not done freelance.

I know that, but it is still frustrating.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, Mislav said:

Something just occurred to me. Are the casting changes one the reasons why we are so displeased by the actual plots of the current episodes-well, recent episodes in general? 

Now, I am not denying that later seasons feature much less profile work than the early ones, and that the unsubs keep getting more and more over the top. I have complained about that multiple times. But if the current seasons still featured the characters we all know and love, the one who had (mostly) been featured from the beginning, or earlier seasons in general... would we be more willing to overlook the preposterousness of some plots, at least in part? If there were still just Hotch, Spencer, Derek, JJ, Garcia, and Emily, or Alex Blake, or heck, even Kate Callahan, would we enjoy the episodes more? Because casting changes combined with the plot changes really make it seem like we are watching an almost completely different show-and not a really good one.

Well, the thing is, though, most of the current team members are ones who've been there for much, or all, of the show's run. Only three of the current team members are recent hires-Tara, Luke, and Matt. So I don't think that's really the issue here. And we've had cast turnover to some degree or another since season 2, and the show's still managed to still come up with interesting storylines and whatnot over the years. 

I do personally like the newer team members and think they've meshed well overall with the older ones, and while I do find the profiling aspect of the cases interesting, that's not the part of the show that drew me in, nor is it the aspect of the cases that I focus on. And I am still interested in the storylines to some degree or another. So feel free to take my thoughts on the matter with a grain of salt as a result :p:

I won't argue that some storylines have been handled better than others, or that there are some issues with how the show handles the cases and the characters and storylines related to both. But i think most of that is due to a couple things I mentioned elsewhere a while back: 1) this is a procedural, and that genre of programming is always going to limit and inhibit some of the focus on the characters and their stories to some degree. The fact that CBS has constantly meddled with this show, and was actually the reason for some of the cast changes over the years, certainly doesn't help matters, either. 

And 2), and most importantly, perhaps...this show's thirteen years old. I don't know that there are any shows that reach this many years on the air that won't have some sort of ups and downs in the writing and the portrayal of the cases or the characters. Many shows at this stage in their run will have new writers who may either see the characters in different ways, or may not have as strong a grasp on them as past writers did, or might be good at writing cases but not character stories and vice versa. @JMO's comment in the Hotch thread explaining why they get so creative with the cases nowadays is spot on, too. Sure, one could argue the show should just wrap things up, then, if they're struggling at knowing how to write that stuff (and I won't be surprised if the show does wind down in the next year or two, simply because every show must end eventually if nothing else), but if they're still getting viewers, and the cast and crew still want to keep working, that's easier said than done. 

I don't know how many of the current writers on staff are new, but sometimes it takes a bit for newer writers to really find their groove, so maybe with time they could come up with cases and character stories that would interest those who aren't so keen on the current stuff. Maybe some of them will learn they're just not cut out to write for a show like this and we'll get new writers down the line who are better qualified. Who knows. 

But I think there's a lot of factors to consider here, some of which are beyond the writers' control, or the showrunner's control, and the solutions on how to fix those issues aren't always so clear cut and easy. 

Edited February 8, 2018 by Annber03

[Unkempt]

Frequent casting changes do not help, I'll say that.  Viewers love consistency.

I personally haven't disliked any of the new team members, but really, nothing compares to the old seasons 3-5 team.  Their chemistry was perfect.

But, yes, @annber03, you hit the nail on the head - The writers, and even Erica, aren't the be all end all in what happens on the air in this show.  TV is a notorious business for having "too many cooks in the kitchen."  Lots of egos, too.  But at the end of the day, the network is in charge, and the network cares about nothing but the bottom line.  They'll take the wacky outside-the-box unsubs if that means the show is making money....and if the show is making money, it's not going off the air anytime soon.  Plus, I'd never hope that a show just wraps it up because I'm not happy with changes because LOTS of people will lose their jobs (just notice how many people are in the credits at the end of the show - none of them make as much money as the talent and really need that job as they have mortgages and car payments like the rest of us).

[Annber03]

4 minutes ago, Unkempt said:

Frequent casting changes do not help, I'll say that.  Viewers love consistency.

I personally haven't disliked any of the new team members, but really, nothing compares to the old seasons 3-5 team.  Their chemistry was perfect.

Agreed on this. You're right that consistency with characters certainly does help. I think part of the reason I tend to like any new team members who've come along over the years is because I feel for them stepping into a show where some fans have automatically already rejected them for replacing a beloved character, and I just automatically feel like they deserve support from somebody. That's not easy on anyone. And on a show like this, I think the constant cast turnover does make sense to some degree simply because I think that's just how certain jobs are in general. Some types of professions, it makes sense for somebody to be there for years and years, others, there's going to be people coming and going. And the type of job the BAU does is especially tough, so I totally get why some team members might need to step away after a while. 

That said, however, yes, it does seem the network doesn't quite fully understand why a particular cast chemistry works so well. I think the show has been lucky in that every new person who's come in has managed to click with the longer-running team members to some degree (obviously, mileage may vary with some of you on that), but speaking on a general level, there's a reason certain cast lineups on shows are beloved and favored, and networks would do well to at least have some understanding of that fact, and be a little more careful in how they bring new people in, if they must. You're right that networks' main focus is the bottom line, and I get why they focus on that, too, of course, as it is an important aspect of keeping a show going. 

But yeah, I don't blame people for getting frustrated when it seems the network either doesn't get it on the non-numbers side of things, or worse, doesn't handle creative/cast changes in a show very smoothly. 

[JMO]

I never really understand the concern about people losing their jobs.  We're all told how talented they are.  Wouldn't they just move on to another show?  It's not like we're left with empty air time after a show is cancelled.  For the people behind the camera and in front, it's their craft that is meant as a career, not one particular show.

[JMO]

Unemployment is a given when you hire yourself out as a temporary worker.  When that's the nature of the beast, you plan ahead, or get into a field where you have a chance at permanency.  Or you read the thirteen-season writing on the wall, and start looking elsewhere now.  

[Unkempt]

I'm kind of taken aback at the lack of empathy for the paycheck dependent human beings working behind the scenes.  Sure, it's the nature of the beast in this business, but that doesn't mean we should wish it on the crew because we don't like the unsubs.  I know if my husband lost his directing job, we'd take a hit.  There's only so much planning you can do when you're not rich.  Thomas Gibson can afford to not work for two years after losing his job....most in the crew don't have that luxury.

 

You are all obviously entitled to your opinions, however you formed them, but I would hope that no one would ever wish unemployment on any of you....or simply shrug their shoulders if it happened to you.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Unkempt

[Unkempt]

But it will be milked dry because the network cares about the bottom line.  Like it or not, it comes down to money.

[Mislav]

1 minute ago, Unkempt said:

But it will be milked dry because the network cares about the bottom line.  Like it or not, it comes down to money.

Yes, but they probably don't care about the tech crew or writers either, so that is not a valid reason to keep it on. Greed isn't a valid reason either. Even if it will prevail, that doesn't mean we have to like it or approve it.

[normasm]

56 minutes ago, Unkempt said:

I'm kind of taken aback at the lack of empathy for the paycheck dependent human beings working behind the scenes.  Sure, it's the nature of the beast in this business, but that doesn't mean we should wish it on the crew because we don't like the unsubs.  I know if my husband lost his directing job, we'd take a hit.  There's only so much planning you can do when you're not rich.  Thomas Gibson can afford to not work for two years after losing his job....most in the crew don't have that luxury.

 

You are all obviously entitled to your opinions, however you formed them, but I would hope that no one would ever wish unemployment on any of you....or simply shrug their shoulders if it happened to you.

Unk, I think it's less a lack of empathy for paycheck dependent human beings and more that, at least with regard to a primetime TV show (in Hollywood), they have the safety afforded by a union and that helps them get work that pays decently fairly quickly. Yes, it probably would be temporarily uncomfortable, but they do have those safeguards. It probably would be very sad to leave a situation that has turned into a family situation, though, and no union can protect against that.

[normasm]

Oh, well, i've never lost a job or had mouths to feed, so i can't imagine what you're talking about! :P

All I'm saying is that, in the gig economy, these folks have a little bit more protection via their union(s), and will probably be hired easily after this show closes, especially those who have been there a long time, like Darcy Spires, etc.

[Unkempt]

Not necessarily, Norm.  Like I said, I know lots of TV people who have lost their jobs, and it doesn't quite work the way you think it does.  Their unions aren't employment services.  They weren't snatched right up to the next job.  If only it were that easy.

[Guest]

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[Danielg342]

13 hours ago, Mislav said:

Something just occurred to me. Are the casting changes one the reasons why we are so displeased by the actual plots of the current episodes-well, recent episodes in general? 

I do find this question interesting since I feel Criminal Minds never did "peak". We may have episodes we consider "the best ever" but I'm not sure we can point to a moment where the show really reached the pinnacle of its creative potential.

Of course, the very premise of the show means that its creative potential is sky high and thus there could be no way it could "outdo itself"- it would just write the same peak at a different time in a different way.

That said, I think the team that formed in "About Face"- Hotch, Rossi, Morgan, Reid, Prentiss, JJ and Garcia- was the best "team" the show has ever had, and I feel that just when they hit their groove, CBS laid the hammer and disrupted their unity for good by firing Prentiss and JJ. I'm not sure I'd say "The Longest Night" was a "peak" but it did end with the impression that the team that existed then could have gone on for many more years, yet it ended in the next episode.

So, how many more years would "The Golden Team" have before it ran out of gas? My guess, since most shows hardly get even a season's worth of good material, CM would probably be hitting all cylinders until S8, maybe even S9. Five seasons seems to be the most any show can generate before it starts being called "tired", so I'd say five years of the Golden Team seems to be just about right. After all, CSI got effectively five more seasons after Ted Danson revitalized the show, so it's not unreasonable that the Golden Team would be effective until that point.

Does that mean that S13 would be better? Hard to know. Declines can be gradual or they can be sharp, and the show in real life exhibited both behaviours. I won't answer the question about whether or not the specific episodes we've watched would be better with the Golden Team because those episodes were written with the team changing as it has in mind. Stuff like Walker's death wouldn't work if there wasn't a Walker to begin with, and arguably Mr. Scratch doesn't become as potent as he does without snuffing out Hotch, Tara and appearing to do so with Reid. "A Beautiful Disaster" just doesn't work without Morgan leaving. Neither does Blake's cries for "Ethan" in "Demons" if there is no Blake.

Perhaps there's a way to rewrite those episodes so that the Golden Team are the ones who get affected, but I just can't see it.

What about the general, "would the Golden Team make the show's current trends more watchable?", as in would the Golden Team make a show that's more about nonsensical UnSubs, action over cerebralness, family dramas and character stories a better show? I don't think we could know without actual episodes being written in those veins, but I tend to think not even the dynamics of the Golden Team could save the show from the worst of Erica Messer. After all, the Golden Team was- sort of- in operation in Messer's first season and she mucked that up terribly, so I can't see how the show would be better if the Golden Team had carried on since then.

Which I think boils down the main point- CM's struggles are centrally about how the art of writing has been lost, as the show fell into the hands of a showrunner who had strengths in areas that just didn't fit with CM. I mean, I still give Messer credit for finding a way to keep the show going for seven seasons after she took over, but I believe Messer has truly struggled with the tone of the show. She can't decide if she wants this to be an action show with profiling in it, a character drama where the cases are just "background", a show that outdoes itself with how "shocking" it can be, a meta commentary about the perils of family life or a "back to the basics", "stick with what works" cerebral show that's all about the mystery and the behaviours are the clues.

It seems obvious to me that Messer has decided she's going with the latter, as I do believe the show has done a far better job sticking to the profiling in recent seasons. The problem is, Messer just doesn't understand that concept, as we keep on getting shows that feel like documentaries than actual mysteries. The next time CM uses a feint or a twist or a red herring it will be their first, because Messer has no idea how to make a show about profiling and build up the tension.

Not because she's a bad writer, but because those aren't her strengths. This was a producer who did The O.C., Charmed, and Alias- not exactly fare that's close to what Criminal Minds is. No wonder she's not a fit.

So, bottom line is, Criminal Minds wouldn't be better with the Golden Team- it would have been better if the writers stuck to what made it great, or, at the very least, if Messer had stuck to a certain vision for Criminal Minds. Perhaps this will be unpopular but I would have been OK with an action drama that utilizes profiling, because that part was unique. Six seasons of the cerebral CM was enough- by S7, it's more than enough time to mix things up and try something new.

Alas, because Messer just couldn't stick with it and work out the groove we're in the mess we're in- and the Golden Team just wouldn't save it.

[Mislav]

As long as we're profiling the show, how about this for an episode: the unsub tortures and murders young women all over New York (or some other big city). At first, it appears that the victims have nothing in common. But it is eventually discovered the unsub went to great lengths to destroy some of the victims' personal items, and even deleted data from their phones and computers. Also, there are no signs of forced entry on any crime scenes, and no defensive wounds on any of the bodies: victims let him in, and felt comfortable around him. Also, the second victim's sister was also murdered, and it appears like she walked in on the unsub, but the team eventually uncovers evidence that the unsub lured her to the crime scene. That, combined with the personal nature of the crimes, leads the team to believe that all the victims dated the same man at some point in their lives! The unsub is killing all of his ex-girlfriends!

 

 

In the final arc, the unsub's motivation is revealed and explained. A year ago, he was happily engaged, soon to be married. One night, while getting off work, he received a phone call from his apartment. A muffled voice said: "We were meant to be together. You broke my heart. I am not going to kill you. But I'm gonna make you wish you were dead. As a matter of fact, it's already done. Come and see." He rushed back to his apartment, only to find his fiancee brutally murdered. Soon afterwards, he suffered a mental breakdown and spent some time in a mental institution. Soon after being released, he went after his ex-girlfriends, believing one of them to be responsible (due to the nature of the phone call). He'd gain access to their homes, subdue them, torture them and search their homes, trying to get them to confess, looking for any evidence of their guilt. When that wouldn't work, he'd snap and murder them, then remove all the evidence that he ever dated them in order to cover his tracks, including killing the second victim's sister (who knew about their relationship).

 

 

In the end, it turns out that none of his ex-girlfriends murdered his fiancee; it was his neighbor, a young mentally disturbed woman who was in love with him and snapped when she learned that his wedding date was approaching. She believed they were destined to be together, even though he barely even spoke to her. Soon after the murder, she attempted suicide and was institutionalized, and she actually received treatment that helped her. All the murders were for nothing.

[Danielg342]

I think it's a good case in general. Maybe for the earlier seasons it's too similar to what they have already done, but in today's age, that case is downright revolutionary. I miss a good love story.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Danielg342

[BakerStreet]

I don't think, Danielg342, that Erica's experience on those other shows disqualify her to be showrunner of CM, which she has been for 7 years now. Like someone said, she's not the final say when it comes to everything. People in that industry go from show to show all the time, and it's not always the same category of show. The people who work there seem to like her a lot.

The godlen team theory is interesting, but it's really the writers that decide what the charcters will do and if you don't like the writing it's hard to understand why viewers stay when actors have left. Would people like it more if all the original actors were still on, I don't know.

[ReidFan]

11 minutes ago, BakerStreet said:

Would people like it more if all the original actors were still on, I don't know.

dunno about others but me, no.

Rossi>Gideon..... Prentiss>Elle...

Personally, I don't miss Morgan at all except in his capacity as Reid's friend. And I'm loving Prentiss as unit chief. But I realise that isn't a popular choice nor is it indicative of the entire fandom 

[MMC]

23 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I do find this question interesting since I feel Criminal Minds never did "peak". We may have episodes we consider "the best ever" but I'm not sure we can point to a moment where the show really reached the pinnacle of its creative potential.

Of course, the very premise of the show means that its creative potential is sky high and thus there could be no way it could "outdo itself"- it would just write the same peak at a different time in a different way.

That said, I think the team that formed in "About Face"- Hotch, Rossi, Morgan, Reid, Prentiss, JJ and Garcia- was the best "team" the show has ever had, and I feel that just when they hit their groove, CBS laid the hammer and disrupted their unity for good by firing Prentiss and JJ. I'm not sure I'd say "The Longest Night" was a "peak" but it did end with the impression that the team that existed then could have gone on for many more years, yet it ended in the next episode.

So, how many more years would "The Golden Team" have before it ran out of gas? My guess, since most shows hardly get even a season's worth of good material, CM would probably be hitting all cylinders until S8, maybe even S9. Five seasons seems to be the most any show can generate before it starts being called "tired", so I'd say five years of the Golden Team seems to be just about right. After all, CSI got effectively five more seasons after Ted Danson revitalized the show, so it's not unreasonable that the Golden Team would be effective until that point.

Does that mean that S13 would be better? Hard to know. Declines can be gradual or they can be sharp, and the show in real life exhibited both behaviours. I won't answer the question about whether or not the specific episodes we've watched would be better with the Golden Team because those episodes were written with the team changing as it has in mind. Stuff like Walker's death wouldn't work if there wasn't a Walker to begin with, and arguably Mr. Scratch doesn't become as potent as he does without snuffing out Hotch, Tara and appearing to do so with Reid. "A Beautiful Disaster" just doesn't work without Morgan leaving. Neither does Blake's cries for "Ethan" in "Demons" if there is no Blake.

Perhaps there's a way to rewrite those episodes so that the Golden Team are the ones who get affected, but I just can't see it.

What about the general, "would the Golden Team make the show's current trends more watchable?", as in would the Golden Team make a show that's more about nonsensical UnSubs, action over cerebralness, family dramas and character stories a better show? I don't think we could know without actual episodes being written in those veins, but I tend to think not even the dynamics of the Golden Team could save the show from the worst of Erica Messer. After all, the Golden Team was- sort of- in operation in Messer's first season and she mucked that up terribly, so I can't see how the show would be better if the Golden Team had carried on since then.

Which I think boils down the main point- CM's struggles are centrally about how the art of writing has been lost, as the show fell into the hands of a showrunner who had strengths in areas that just didn't fit with CM. I mean, I still give Messer credit for finding a way to keep the show going for seven seasons after she took over, but I believe Messer has truly struggled with the tone of the show. She can't decide if she wants this to be an action show with profiling in it, a character drama where the cases are just "background", a show that outdoes itself with how "shocking" it can be, a meta commentary about the perils of family life or a "back to the basics", "stick with what works" cerebral show that's all about the mystery and the behaviours are the clues.

It seems obvious to me that Messer has decided she's going with the latter, as I do believe the show has done a far better job sticking to the profiling in recent seasons. The problem is, Messer just doesn't understand that concept, as we keep on getting shows that feel like documentaries than actual mysteries. The next time CM uses a feint or a twist or a red herring it will be their first, because Messer has no idea how to make a show about profiling and build up the tension.

Not because she's a bad writer, but because those aren't her strengths. This was a producer who did The O.C., Charmed, and Alias- not exactly fare that's close to what Criminal Minds is. No wonder she's not a fit.

So, bottom line is, Criminal Minds wouldn't be better with the Golden Team- it would have been better if the writers stuck to what made it great, or, at the very least, if Messer had stuck to a certain vision for Criminal Minds. Perhaps this will be unpopular but I would have been OK with an action drama that utilizes profiling, because that part was unique. Six seasons of the cerebral CM was enough- by S7, it's more than enough time to mix things up and try something new.

Alas, because Messer just couldn't stick with it and work out the groove we're in the mess we're in- and the Golden Team just wouldn't save it.

Love your post Daniel. I especially agree with your assessment of Erica Messer and how she has been running the show. I will always view her as having been the wrong choice as the CM's new show runner. My first choice would have been of course Ed Bernero remaining at the helm and he'd probably still be there were it not for the idiocy of them firing those actresses. My second choice would been Simon Mirren who I believe held the spot temporarily until he had been offered another gig. Which unfortunately paved the way for EM to step in as CM's new show runner.

[idiotwaltz]

In my view, the show never recovered from firing Paget and AJ. Season 6 was when the writing started to decline in quality. 

I loved the team of Seasons 3 to 5, and 7, but I’m not sure if the show would’ve been better if the actors had all stayed. If the show had gone down the same route with all the action drama, contrived family bonding moments, and pirates and werewolves, I don’t see how the golden team could’ve elevated the material. 

I actually stopped watching the show after Season 8 (the puppet episode was really offputting) and didn’t really tune in again until Season 12 when Paget rejoined. I watched a few episodes here and there but was not impressed. I don’t feel as though I’ve missed anything. 

The only episode I have really enjoyed since Season 7 is Entropy. I liked Red Light, but mostly because MGG and AP in the fantasy sequences are so pretty together. /shallow

Edited February 10, 2018 by idiotwaltz

[Mislav]

On Friday, February 09, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Danielg342 said:

I think it's a good case in general. Maybe for the earlier seasons it's too similar to what they have already done, but in today's age, that case is downright revolutionary. I miss a good love story.

 

Funny you say this, because I actually featured a serial killer couple in my latest Criminal Minds fanfiction, "Helping Hand". (Not really a spoiler because they are shown in the first chapter, but their identities and motives are not revealed until the end.) Though I wouldn't really call that a love story LOL But I like to think the case itself reads like an old-school Criminal Minds, and I did my best to include lots of profiling. And I think the actors I selected for them would have good chemistry together.

 

https://m.fanfiction.net/s/12620518/1/Helping-Hand.

 

 

Also, does anyone remember The Compass Killer from CSI: NY? A fictional serial killer who was unusual and a bit over the top, and with a really specific M.O., but still fairly realistic and sympathetic. And portrayed by Skeet Ulrich! That could have worked well in Criminal Minds universe.

 

http://csi.wikia.com/wiki/Hollis_Eckhart

Edited February 10, 2018 by Mislav

[Mislav]

I've been thinking about why the over the top unsubs bother me, and many other long-time viewers, so much. There are interesting conclusions to be made. Seeing BAU track down more or less "ordinary" serial killers, rapists, stalkers and abductors, is realistic, and is therefore creepier and more exciting to watch. We know that such things happen in real life, and that, in the worst case scenario, they might even happen to us or someone we know, and so we are almost instantly invested in the investigation process, we more or less instantly sympathetize with the victims and their families (knowing that such things can and do happen in real life, more often than most of us like to think), and we root for BAU to get the unsub, even though we know that they almost always do. 

 

 

Having BAU track down the unsub who, for example, rapes and murders young blonde women, or stalks a single woman for a long period of time, or gets off on stabbing prostitutes to death, or molests children and distributes child pornography, or sends package bombs to random people in order to cover up his con scheme, accomplishes that. But having them deal with the unsub who kills people that don't believe him there are bugs literally crawling under his skin, the guy who gets off on watching people freeze to death, a delusional bland overweight woman who murders brides on their wedding days because she is in love with her sister's fiance, the guy who abducts the college girl and keeps her locked in his room with no apparent motive or plan and without doing anything that an abductor would abduct his victim for (torture, rape, ransom), the Uber driver who guillotenes petty criminals because he was physically abused by a strict principal, the unsub who disfigures women so they would look like deceased girlfriend who suffered from facial deformity, or the unsub who lobotomizes single mothers, or the guy who believes he is turning into a werewolf... has anything like that ever happened in real life? And though it is theoretically possible, how probable is it? Are we supposed to be interested in that? Scared of that? Relate to our dear BAU team who has to deal with all the gruesomeness of facially mutilated women redressed in a cheap black dress and left inside confided spaces filled with water-because, after all, real FBI agents often find themselves investigating such monstrosities!

 

 

Plus, storylines were more interesting (in earlier seasons) because the team had to work and, well, think, profile hard in order to understand the unsub's motivation and, eventually, track him/her down. (This year's summer blockbuster: "Profile Hard"...) These days, they seem to jump to conclusions based on circumstancial evidence more often than not, and they are almost always correct right away, and Garcia's magic computer takes care of the rest.

 

 

Seasons eight and nine are interesing, almost like a transition, because even though they featured less profiling and more whacky unsubs, at least they mostly contained lots of details and clues, and the team had to think and look at many different angles in order to determine the unsub's motive and track him or her down. Episodes like 8x11 "Perennials", 8x19 "Pay it Forward", 8x20 "Alchemy" and 9x6 "In the Blood" are good examples of that.

 

 

Plus, all the new characters seem to fit in right away (putting aside that cringy Penelope/Luke conflict), and though they are said to have their own specific set of skills, they rarely ever use them. That is just poor characterization, and it taints the whole experience. It just seems lazy and artificial.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mislav

[Mislav]

"Profiling hard" could be a phrase used on the show.

 

"I don't guess. I profile, hard."-Dr. Spencer Reid

Edited February 21, 2018 by Mislav

[normasm]

I think we've discussed this before but i thought this was fascinating. 

This man was featured in the episode Omnivore, he was lecturing and Reid was attending. Talking about the psychopathic brain, specifically giving his family, especially his mother, credit for steering him towards being a functional person who could have decent relationships, even a marriage and children.

[Mislav]

2 minutes ago, normasm said:

I think we've discussed this before but i thought this was fascinating. 

This man was featured in the episode Omnivore, he was lecturing and Reid was attending. Talking about the psychopathic brain, specifically giving his family, especially his mother, credit for steering him towards being a functional person who could have decent relationships, even a marriage and children.

That was fascinating. They should have featured real-life psychologists more.

But he appeared in "Outfoxed", not "Omnivore". I know I'm nitpicking, but I can't help myself.

[normasm]

No, you're right, I misremembered the episode, thanks for the correction!

[K42]

On 1/5/2018 at 4:13 AM, AsYouWish said:

What would you all pick as your favorite seasons and episodes? Or at least the ones you end up watching most often, lol. I'd said 4 and 5 were my favorites, but so many of my top go to episodes that I watch over and over are from the first three seasons. I am very excited to see which episodes other people find themselves watching again and again!

 

 

 

I don't like seasons. I like certain episodes and storylines.

I love Pleasure is my business (Season 4, episode 16) a lot. I wish the writers showed more of Hotch seducing/ being seduced by a woman who would appeal to him in a classy way. It was a very classic Hotch-like type of pre-flirtation he had going on with the unsub in the elevator. *swoon*

I also love Emily's spy storyline. Her chemistry with Ian Doyle was incredible. I love seeing contrasts. Emily can be so awkward and dorky yet be such a dangerous badass when she wants to be.

And last but not least are Entropy and Reid's prison-arc. I know lots of people here don't want Reid to turn evil but there's something so sexy about MGG being bad. I'm so over dorky and innocent Reid. 

Edited April 23, 2018 by KatsDivision

[Mislav]

A response to the post in the "Mixed Signals" thread about cases being "too complicated": I'm sort of on the fence. I enjoy complicated storylines, especially in mystery shows, but



1) they have to make sense by the end



2) the team has to reach the conclusion(s) through profiling, or at least some thrull detective work



3) it has to be at least fairly realistic.



In other words, "complicated" doesn't equal "intelligent" or "enjoyable"; which the last couple of seasons clearly displayed.



Let's take the episode 9x10 "The Caller", for example. Husband and wife from St. Louis have been receiving anonymous calls, apparently from a little boy, saying things like "I'm gonna get you." Eventually, their son goes missing, there is blood on the front door, and soon after the horrific discovery, they get another call, with that creepy voice saying: "Did you see what I did?"



BAU is assigned to the case. Reid notices that exactly the same thing happened in Memphis fifteen years prior, and the boy was found dead soon afterwards. The team notes that fifteen years is an unusually long cooling-off period, so the unsub was likely incarcerated, institutionalized, or somewhat incapacitated for a while. The blood on the door later turns out to be an animal blood.



Spencer and JJ examine the boy's room. They note that they are no signs of a struggle, and that the sneakers are missing; meaning that the boy, for some reason, left in the middle of the night, on his own. Meanwhile, Garcia traces the taunting phone calls to the woods about a mile away from the family home. The victim's father remembers that his son used to play there, so the team leads the father to that area, followed by the search team, hoping he can help them discover something important. Fair enough. The search team soon finds the boy's dead body; he was murdered almost immediately after having gone missing.



Later, Alex Blake examines the original tape of the taunting phone call. She uncovers some background audio; Brazilian woman being whipped for money. They talk to a local pimp, who tells them about two Brazilian girls who worked for him almost two decades ago. They pay a visit to one of them, who remembers that, years ago, she was paid to engage in BDSM with a married couple; American man and an Eastern European woman, who seemed frightened.



Eventually, the second victim's mother is abducted too, and the father receives another taunting phone call! The team goes over the details of the case. They note that both children were strangled to death, were neither tortured nor molested, and were posed in a "peaceful" position, like they are sleeping. That leads them to believe they are looking for a mercy killer. Blood on the door could be Bible reference: "When I see the blood, I will pass over you." But according to the Bible, the families with blood on the door DIDN'T have their children killed, so the unsub seems to have gotten it backwards... like murdering children is an act of rescue, of mercy.





The team also notes that both child victims lived in similar families: Eastern European mother and an American father. Then they note that the first victim's mother had committed suicide, and the taunting calls started on the anniversary of her death. Then they remember that the former Brazilian prostitute told them she was paid to engage in BDSM with a married couple, American man and an Eastern European woman, who seemed frightened. They figure out that was the unsub's family; and now he is projecting, murdering boys living in family structure similar to his, in order to spare them the perceived suffering at the hands of a father. Then they suspect that he abducted the mother in order to "rescue" her too, and suspect that the unsub's mother also committed suicide.



Garcia searches for Eastern European women in Memphis area who had sons and committed suicide over the last few decades. Unsurprisingly, there aren't many of them. She finds one match. The woman drove a car into a lake, while she and her son were inside; she drowned, but the son managed to escape. Her son's name is Daniel Milworth; he worked in the same school that the first victim (from fifteen years ago, in Memphis) attended. Sometime later, Daniel was arrested for torturing a prostitute, and was institutionalized for eleven years, which is explains the long cooling-off period. During that time, he was diagnosed with a bipolar disorder and pathological embitterment, and he revealed the details of his abusive childhood. There are no records of him following the release; he must have created a false identity.



The team shows Daniel Milworth's photograph to the (second) victim's father. He identifies him as the man named Burt Solomon; his son's computer science teacher. (The flashback reveals that the boy sneaked out in the middle of the night hoping to receive a new videogame from his "favorite teacher".) The team rushes to Burt's/Daniel's home and rescue the mother. The unsub attempts to shoot Alex, but Reid shoots him to death. The end. (The calls he made were actually recordings: the boy's voice was a recording of the unsub himself as a child. The background audio came from his father's sex tapes, that the unsub was forced to record as a child. Yikes.)

 

 

Of course, the episode isn't without its flaws. For one, the unsub smeared the pig's blood on the door, when in "Exodus", it was clearly stated the the lamb's blood had to be used (though I'm not sure can you even buy an animal blood, let alone a specific one, so maybe the unsub just had to make do?). And I'd imagine the parents would have been granted a police protection (they could have declined it for some reason, or the unsub could have distracted the cops somehow, but that angle was never explored). Still, the episode's strengths outweighed the weaknesses, so to say.



Was that case complicated? Hell yeah! But it was also awesome. It made sense by the end (because everything was explained and all the pieces fell into place), the team figured the unsub out (and tracked him down) through profiling, and the case was still relatively realistic. (The unsub was a mercy killer who was abused as a child, and would murder boys living in families similar to his, in order to "save them", and he'd murder them by strangling them to death; not, like, unleashing bugs on them, or freezing them to death, or lobotomizing them and then drowning them in concrete, or poisoning them with a radioactive substance, or mauling them to death while pretending to be a werewolf.)



Unsurprisingly, "The Caller" was written by Sharon Lee Watson.



I see seasons eight and nine as sort of a transition period. The cases started getting more contrived and over the top, but they were still (mostly) well explained and relatively realistic, and the team had to work hard, and explore many different angles, in order to solve them. There were contrived but bad cases back then too, such as "Magnum Opus" and "200", but not nearly as many as today. Bigger problems started to emerge in season ten, continued throughout season eleven, and it's pretty much been downhill ever since.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Mislav