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Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show


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Oh, man, same. I have been refreshing TV Line and SpoilerTV all afternoon. Normally I'd be pretty confident, but today's been a super rough day across many networks thus far with shows getting cancelled left and right, so I can't help worrying a little. Keeping my fingers crossed, though. 

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6 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Oh, man, same. I have been refreshing TV Line and SpoilerTV all afternoon. Normally I'd be pretty confident, but today's been a super rough day across many networks thus far with shows getting cancelled left and right, so I can't help worrying a little. Keeping my fingers crossed, though. 

Think positive,

I am thinking positive, especially since seeing ABC clean house with their shows.

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(edited)

So, "Criminal Minds" got renewed... Yay or nay? Nay, I still have to go with yay. Pure hope.

 

Anyway, I've spent a lot of time thinking about the (eventual) series finale. Now, there's a pretty big, and complex problem with series finales: writers and showrunners usually try to do something big and memorable, but that often ends up disrupting the dynamic and tone that has been established. Plus, "Criminal Minds" has done so many "big" storylines already, especially for season finales-anything more would have been an overkill by this point, no pun intended.

 

 

That is why it is usually good to establish some big, recurring story arc from the beginning, so you can have a big, complex mystery spread throughout the whole series, that can finally be resolved in the series finale. But it's now too late for "Criminal Minds" to pull that off. Of course, that doesn't always work either. "The Mentalist" screwed that up. I think that "Monk" did it right.

 

 

That is why I think "Criminal Minds" finale should be relatively simple-to an extent. I think it should last 90 to 120 minutes, like a movie; or two episodes. Even three, if necessary. And it should simply feature BAU working on a serial killer case... but doing it right. Using lots of profiling, while still keeping it realistic. Interrogating lots of possible suspects and red herrings, rather than having the unsub turn out to be some random creep that Garcia found using her magic computer. Not showing the unsub (in the act, I mean) until the final act. Not to mention, making sure that the ending is unexpected, shocking even-but also logical and poignant. In a similar vein to the twist ending of 4x11 "Normal", for example; but not that same, recycled twist, of course. Sometimes, less is more.

 

 

Make the case fairly realistic and gritty, but still a tad bizarre and complicated, so Reid, in addition to profiling, could really go over lots of interesting facts that he knows, in order to eventually figure out the unsub's motive. Make Emily finally act like an unit chief. Maybe the local detectives don't want BAU snooping in on their case, and Emily eventually has to... make some things clear, so to say. That is the least she could do. Add some action scenes and door-kicking (nothing over the top, please), so Luke and Matt get a chance to shine. (I'd still prefer Derek, of course, but hey...) Have JJ be the one to address the public. (I know she hasn't been a media liasion in years, but she can still put her original skills to good use.) Maybe also have her talk to the victim's family. She seemed good with that in early seasons. But actually put an effort to make the scene moving, and have the questioning eventually result in a potentially useful lead. Have Garcia actually take some time to hack into certain databases, and at least have her mention that her searches are illegal. Give Rossi a really sharp snarky line or two. (Or three, or four, or five...)

 

 

Also, feature some callbacks to good old times. Maybe the unsub is sending some complex cryptic notes/riddles to the authorities, which leads to Reid asking Alex Blake for help? And some of the victims could be previous victims of a sexual assault, and linked to the rape crisis center, that is run by no other than Elle Greenaway. Maybe the case they are investigating bears a certain resemblence to one of the cases they had previously solved (just one case; no "Replicator 2.0", please), leading them to interrogate some memorable unsubs from earlier seasons (maybe Vincent Perrotta, Amber Canardo, Jonny McHale, Norman Hill, Joe Bachmann, or even Karl Arnold-again?). That could also prompt them to call in Derek Morgan, and have him assist with with the investigation. Maybe they can even feature some sort of a support group, consisting of some of the victims that the BAU rescued over the years. 

 

 

I'd also like to see Cat Adams and Lindsey Vaugn again, but I'm not sure how would they fit them into all of that. Maybe there can be some sort of a subplot Cat has a connection to a cold case that has become active again, but she only wants to talk to Reid?

 

 

Of course, I think the finale shouldn't be all case; it should also provide some sort of a closure to the characters, at least most of them. And those arcs should be set up in advance, spanning throughout at least the whole final season before finally reaching the conclusion in the series finale. I'd like to see the writers finally give Spencer a love interest, and dedicate at least one whole season to developing that arc (not in every episode, of course, but you know what I mean). I'm not sure should the finale end with something as big as Reid getting married (though I certainly wouldn't mind!), but I think seeing him propose to his girlfriend, and her saying "Yes", would be lovely, and almost as satisfying. Also, maybe Rossi finally decides to retire (again). I really like him, but he's probably getting too old for this s... stuff, no offense. As for JJ and Garcia... I'm not sure, honestly. JJ pretty much got her closure before that could even become an issue. (Out of all the characters...) She seems satisfied with her current position, she is happily married and has two children. So maybe just leave things the way they are? As for Garcia, maybe Kevin Lynch shows up again, and he and Garcia rekindle their long forgotten romance? I mean, I don't care much  about her love life, but I liked Kevin. I know that Nicholas Brendon has been going through lots of personal issues lately, but I hope he recovers. I also know that Penelope went on to date Sam, but he hasn't even been mentioned since season ten or so... I think. I can't really decide about Luke, Matt or Tara. Neither of them has had much character development, so I don't know what direction they should head in, so to say. I kind of hoped that Rossi and Tara would become a couple though... I'm such a weird person.

 

 

[I recently realized that several actors and actresses from "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer" have appeared on "Criminal Minds". Not only has Nicholas Brendon, who portrayed Xander Harris on "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer", portrayed Kevin Lynch on " Criminal Minds", but Angela Sarafyan, who guest starred in "Buffy", went on to portray the unsub, Lucy, in season six finale of "Criminal Minds", and Michelle Trachtenberg, who portrayed Dawn on Buffy, portrayed Diane Turner on "Criminal Minds". I keep waiting for Sarah Michelle Gellar to show up as a paranoid schizophrenic staking Twilight fangirls under the delusion that she is slaying vampires.]

 

 

They will probably never have Thomas Gibson on the show again, not even for one appearance in a series finale, even if the legal matters get sorted out, and that sucks. But oh, well... we can't have everything, I guess. I hope Emily and Spencer will mention him, at least. They could also include some flashbacks from earlier episodes, featuring Hotch. I'd argue that Gideon also deserves a mention for the series finale.

 

 

Basically, what most of the fans still enjoy about "Criminal Minds", what originally made the show so good and was heavily featured, are the following elements:

 

 

1) Profiling (detailed and fairly realistic), and team work.

2) Interesting, gritty, and fairly realistic cases.

3) Well-established, complex protagonists with a good, fun team dynamic.

 

 

The finale should feature all of that, providing both a creepy, interesting, complex case of the week, and a closure to the characters that we know and love. The kind of finale that wouldn't only serve as a great ending to the show, but could even serve as a gritty, stand-alone TV movie that even the people unfamiliar with the show could quite enjoy.

 

 

But again, that is just my idea. I'm sure many will disagree; and it probably won't work out like that in real life, either. Maybe series finale should really feature something big-huge, even. Maybe writers/showrunners will never give Reid a love interest, or have Rossi retire. But I still have some faint hope that they will do it right. (Meaning: my way LOL. How humble of me.)

 

 

I also know that there have been unsubs who got away, so an argument can be made that "Criminal Minds" finale should be focused on capturing them, but honestly, aside from Shane Wyland, I don't find any of those unsubs memorable or interesting enough to be the subject of the series finale. They should either remain at large, just to show that, sadly, not all the cases get solved and not all the bad guys get captured, or the writers should tie up those loose ends before the series finale, if they feel a need to finally resolve those storylines.

Edited by Mislav
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I always believed the series finale should be about Rossi's retirement and the team working his final case. Nothing too grandiose or Earth-shattering, but a natural "end" to arguably the BAU's most important character (he founded the BAU, after all). I think it's important to emphasize that while the show may end, the BAU does not, because there will always be serial killers.

It's akin to the finale of Angel where they ended the series with the characters about to get into a fight. Joss Whedon said it's to remind the viewers, "the fight never ends" and I think a similar sentiment works well for CM.

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I've always thought a nice series finale for the show would have the team doing a typical case for much of the episode (or wrapping up one final big case that's been running for some/all of the season, whichever)...and then at the end, there's a little flashforward of some amount of time later, and we see everyone gathered at some bookstore somewhere, coming to see a now once again retired Rossi reading from his latest book...which is about the history of the BAU :). Perhaps a few former team members can show up as well, and those that aren't there, we can get a brief shoutout to them, just a quick one or two-liner explaining what's become of them. And maybe some of the team members are their with their families and/or significant others as well. 

Either that, or we can just see the team at the end of the episode starting yet another day at their job, just showing us that life will continue to go on like usual for them. Either one of those kinds of finales would be just fine with me. 

I do agree that whenever the show's final season is, though, I want them to spend it giving the team members some nice closure. Maybe some of them will be looking to move on to other jobs, or retiring, or wanting to spend more time with their families, or maybe they'll all agree to keep doing what they do. But it'd just be nice to have some certainty in that regard, and let us see them preparing to make whatever changes they want to make to their lives, professional and/or personal, and getting at least a small glimpse of how those decisions will pan out. 

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2 hours ago, The Raw Category said:

I feel like they've exhausted every kind of unsub at this point. I think what's left is to focus more on the characters and their personal lives. 

Have they ever featured a female serial rapist? That could make for an interesting, original-and disturbing-case.

 

Or maybe they have to re-open an... unique cold case: the only school shooting that has remained unsolved?

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1 minute ago, Mislav said:

Have they ever featured a female serial rapist? That could make for an interesting, original-and disturbing-case.

 

Or maybe they have to re-open an... unique cold case: the only school shooting that has remained unsolved?

No more old cases! As for a female criminal, I think it would be original but other than, what else is there left to be portrayed?

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15 minutes ago, The Raw Category said:

No more old cases! As for a female criminal, I think it would be original but other than, what else is there left to be portrayed?

I mean, idea #2 wouldn't be a case that was previously featured on the show, only to be revisited, like with the most recent episode and season four's "Minimal Loss". Just a cold case that the team has to reopen for some reason, though hasn't been mentioned before (not that contrived, since the BAU can't be investigating all the serial killer/mass murders/spree killers cases happening throughout the USA anyway). It would feature a (reopened) cold case, but it wouldn't be a recycled/revisited case.

 

 

Another idea for an episode: the team has to split in two, in order to investigate two seemingly unrelated serial killer cases, active at the same time (maybe taking place in the same city, or taking place in neighboring cities/states). The first case is a series of vigilante killings. All the victims are registered sex offenders. The second case is a series of brutal murders, where all the victims are young women; seemingly low-risk victims with nothing in common. The investigation eventually reveals that all the female victims were previously victims of some kind of sex crime (attempted rape, stalking, molestation, harassment), though none of them were raped, because they managed to fight the attacker off and/or contact the authorities in time. It eventually turns out that the cases are connected; the work of the same unsub, the victim of a rape. She is murdering registered sex offenders because they are surrogates for the man who raped her; but she is also murdering those women because she is jealous that they, unlike her, managed to fight off their attackers before they managed to rape them (since she tried to run away and then fight back, but failed).

Edited by Mislav
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Another (relatively original) episode idea that I've had:

 

The unsub tortures and murders young women all over New York (or some other big city). At first, it appears that the victims have nothing in common. But it is eventually discovered the unsub went to great lengths to destroy some of the victims' personal items, and even deleted data from their phones and computers. Also, there are no signs of forced entry on any crime scenes, and no defense wounds on any of the bodies: victims let him in, and felt comfortable around him. Also, the second victim's sister was also murdered, and it appears like she had walked in on the unsub and was a collateral victim, but the team eventually uncovers evidence that the unsub lured her to the crime scene. That, combined with the personal nature of the crimes, leads the team to conclude that all the victims dated the same man at some point in their lives. The unsub is killing all of his ex-girlfriends!

 

 

In the final arc, the unsub's motivation is revealed and explained. A year ago, he was happily engaged, soon to be married. One night, while getting off work, he received a phone call from his apartment. A muffled voice said: "We were meant to be together. You broke my heart. I am not going to kill you. But I'm gonna make you wish you were dead. As a matter of fact, it's already done. Come and see." He rushed back to his apartment, only to find his fiancee brutally murdered. Soon afterwards, he suffered a mental breakdown and spent some time in a mental institution. Soon after being released, he went after his ex-girlfriends, believing one of them to be responsible (due to the nature of the phone call). He'd gain access to their homes, subdue them, torture them and search their homes, trying to get them to confess, and searching for any evidence of their guilt. When that wouldn't work, he'd snap and murder them, then remove all the evidence that he ever dated them in order to cover his tracks, including killing the second victim's sister (who knew about their relationship).

 

 

In the end, it turns out that none of the unsub's ex-girlfriends murdered his fiancee; it was his neighbor, a young mentally disturbed woman who was in love with him, and snapped when she learned that his wedding date was approaching. She believed they were destined to be together, even though he barely even spoke to her (which is why he never suspected her). Soon after the murder, she attempted suicide and was institutionalized, and she actually received treatment that helped her. All the murders were for nothing.

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Between a bunch of new characters being brought in, Rossi finding out he had a daughter and a grandson the whole time, bunch of serial killers breaking out of prison, Spencer being framed for murder (and ending up in prison instead of, you know, jail), and, most recently, a cult targeting the BAU (resulting in Spencer and Garcia getting abducted), the last few seasons of "Criminal Minds" read like a really bad fanfic.

 

 

Considering all that, Erica Messer really baffles me. The way she addressed the recent sexual assault allegations against the crew member was terrible. It is like she lives in her own "reality". 

 

 

Maybe that explains the focus on new characters such as Matt and Luke, as well as on overused characters like JJ, and a lack of any development or new, interesting storylines regarding Spencer and Rossi (no, I don't like the whole ex-wives bs). Erica keeps pushing the uninteresting new characters down our throats because she identifies with them. They reflect her: bland, shallow, uninspired and pandering. It is like they made a 13-year-old girl the showrunner.

 

 

And what's all that with "Criminal Minds family"? This used to be an interesting, gritty, thought provoking crime-mystery show where FBI agents used (relatively realistic) psychological profiling in order to catch serial killers, spree killers, serial rapists, abductors, mass murderers, terrorists... experts trying to think like monsters in order to catch them. How on Earth has it become some sort of over the top family-friendly soap opera/action show? A parody of itself. How does anyone mess up so badly?

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This is in response to Mislav. I tried picking specifics but my tablet is having s bad day..?

Anyone who watch CM from the beginning as I did, would never disagree that the show changed drastically when Messer took over and not for the better. Yes we have the 'change is good' but we also have  'if it's not broken...' and in my view, it was not broken. 

in her defence, a lot of changes happened around that time. I was much more invested in the show that time and I know through sources and some information that is now public knowledge, that there was a big shakeup behind the scenes. One that in my view was the death nail for the show.

Theres a lot could be examined about what went wrong and we could fill many threads on that, but to keep with your points on Messer, I agree. She tried to turn the show into a soap opera and it has failed miserably which was to be expected. I find her interviews cringe worthy, always did. I remember way back when there was a very vocal and at times out of control group on Twitter who were Hotch/Prentiss shippers. Every other interview it was brought up. Would Hotch and Prentiss get together. Thomas was adamant it would not happen and explained that it would take from the show, the character and bring the show in the wrong direction. Back in the days of Ed Bernero, that had been the discussion.

But the shippers persisted and Messer and Brewster would put them into a frenzy with hints, Thomas would say nope and even from that small thing you could see where there were going to be possible conflicts.

Then when Bellamy Young came on board, the shippers went berserk. 

Still Messer did not learn and she continued to drop these little hints and maybes and still Thomas was ..NOPE ?

Thats just a small example of so much that went wrong under her watch. Without doubt, the writing was the biggest failure. Even when my people, my favourite cast makeup were there, there were many times I could visibly see them struggling with the dialogue. I downloaded some scripts once and read them....?

And yes Mislav, all this happy clappy 'family' BS, or the 'our heros'. It's cringeworthy and now knowing what was going on behind the scenes, it's insulting. I've made my feelings clear on that. She ought to be ashamed. 

I lost my way with this show some time ago but could not quite completely cut the strings. I feel a bit sad at how it has declined and don't buy the 'it's an old show' excuse. Yes, it's an old show and it's natural that it wouldn't hit the high notes of early days, BUT in my opinion, it is not age that has destroyed this show, it's immaturity. She and those who came on board with her were handed a brilliant product, a little wounded but ultimately with the right attitude, it would have weathered that storm and come back fighting. Sad.

 

sorry about the long and winding essay. I don't get a lot of time on so have to say a lot at once! 

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Everyone will have a different take on what is right or wrong with any show.  I certainly have my own complaints about character development and continuity with CM, and my own difference of vision from EM's. 

But, just a point of logic:  Criminal Minds came on the air in 2005.  EM took over as showrunner in 2011.  It's now 2018.  The show has been on the air longer under her tutelage than it was without it.  In fact, she's gotten a much longer run than most shows.  Her vision must have appealed to someone. 

I don't think she can be characterized as the death knell.  Old age is what will ultimately lead to the show's coming to an end.

Edited by JMO
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My reply to K42, regarding her latest reply in "300" thread:

 

I liked all the new characters, up to and including Alex Blake. Yes, even Ashley Seaver; even though a part of that is probably due to Rachel Nichols being cute as hell ?But Alex Blake was the last new character that I liked. Tara Lewis is OK, she had some really good parts in season eleven, but the writers haven't done much with her since.

 

Many people seem to forget that Emily and Rossi were new characters at one point too. I wonder, is there some kind of statue of limitations on that, so to say? Like, if the character is introduced as a new character in season 2 or 3 of the show, and 10+ years later the show is still on the air, and those characters are still on it, then almost all the viewers, especially long-term ones, no longer really consider them to ever had been new characters, and it feels like they were a part of the show from the beginning.

Edited by Mislav
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17 minutes ago, JMO said:

Everyone will have a different take on what is right or wrong with any show.  I certainly have my own complaints about character development and continuity with CM, and my own difference of vision from EM's. 

But, just a point of logic:  Criminal Minds came on the air in 2005.  EM took over as showrunner in 2011.  It's now 2018.  The show has been on the air longer under her tutelage than it was without it.  In fact, she's gotten a much longer run than most shows.  Her vision must have appealed to someone. 

I don't think she can be characterized as the death knell.  Old age is what will ultimately lead to the show's coming to an end.

Hi JMO,

Yes I agree people will have their own opinions and I respect that. All my comments I give with the 'in my opinion' tag, because it is just that. She's been there longer than others, that is correct. But it is because of the upheaval at the end of S5? If that had not occured, Bernero had stayed and the host of good writers and producers that seemed to follow him out the door, then I think we'd be in a better situation right now. There were some good writers since then but they did not seem to be able to retain them. Oonah Lah springs to mind. 

I guess my point is that when EM took over, she seemed to do a complete 360 on the direction of the show. Maybe she was able to convince tptb that is the direction it needed to go, to attract a different audience,  I don't know, but she and they got it badly wrong in my view. 

As an experiment a few months ago, I had some friends who had never watched it before, look at a selection of episodes from S7 to 13. Then they watched a selection from 1-5. There response was that had it not been for the same faces and character names, they would never have thought it was the same show. 

I personally take umbrage at the 'our loyal fans' comments that come regularly because I feel it's a slight at those who have expressed opinions on the direction of the show and decisions made. Why does it pee me off, well long before EM was mentioned, 1000s of those loyal fans were lighting up the switchboard of CBS, and crashing their servers in protest at PB and AJ getting canned, and they've done it since when other problems have come up. 

EM and her colleagues just don't seem to want to bear any responsibility for how things have worked out. Her words, her recorded words regarding this dispicable situation with StJohns, makes that clear. 

19 minutes ago, Mislav said:

My reply to K42, regarding her latest reply in "300" thread:

 

I liked all the new characters, up to and including Alex Blake. Yes, even Ashley Seaver; even though a part of that is probably due to Rachel Nichols is cute as hell ?But Alex Blake was the last new character that I liked. Tara Lewis is OK, she had some really good parts in season eleven, but the writers haven't done much with her since.

 

Many people seem to forget that Emily and Rossi were new characters at one point too. I wonder, is there some kind of statue of limitations on that, so to say? Like, if the character is introduced as a new character in season 2 or 3 of the show, and 10+ years later the show is still on the air, and those characters are still on it, then almost all the viewers, especially long-term ones, no longer really consider them to ever had been new characters, and it feels like they were a part of the show from the beginning.

I really liked Alex. I loved her relationship with Reid and not exploring this more is one of the many grrrr moments I have with recent years CM. I want to like Tara but I think my overall meh with the show is blocking me from doing that. That said, off the new arrivals, I'd ditch both the boys, however appealing to the eye Daniel Henney is and keep Tara. 

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1 hour ago, JMO said:

Everyone will have a different take on what is right or wrong with any show.  I certainly have my own complaints about character development and continuity with CM, and my own difference of vision from EM's. 

But, just a point of logic:  Criminal Minds came on the air in 2005.  EM took over as showrunner in 2011.  It's now 2018.  The show has been on the air longer under her tutelage than it was without it.  In fact, she's gotten a much longer run than most shows.  Her vision must have appealed to someone. 

I don't think she can be characterized as the death knell.  Old age is what will ultimately lead to the show's coming to an end.

 

I mean, there are literal soap operas that can last up 15-20+ seasons... that is not a very good argument... Do you also think that "50 Shades of Grey" is a good book because it sold over 100 million copies? Or that "Firefly" is bad because it got canceled after one season?

 

And the show did start declining in quality after season five, but I personally still enjoyed it up until season ten (many might not feel that way, but I do), so no, it wasn't a disaster as soon as Erica took over, but that doesn't mean that she didn't screw things up later on, or that her showrunning, currently, almost five years since the last decent season, isn't pretty damn bad. But some flaws were evident in her early days as a showrunner, they just got really prominent later on.

 

And it is hard to give up on characters that you've followed, and enjoyed, for almost a decade, so some probably watch out of pure hope that things might get better. At the very least, most of the long-time viewers would like to see the series finale and get some closure (even if chances are that it will be... disapointing), so they do have to stay in the loop.

 

 

Also, there are still good episodes (such as "Nelson's Sparrow" and "Entropy")... but once in a blue moon. So some viewers may tune in thinking "Will this be the episodes where writers get it right?" Which you can't really know unless you watch it (or at least a half of it), and if the episodes turns out to be crap (like most of them are), it is even more disappointing.

 

 

And if you want to see bunch of people currently watching, and liking, "Criminal Minds" for low-bar, superficial reasons that would even make 13-year-old girls cringe, just take a look at some of the YouTube comments on Criminal Minds videos, or even some Reddit comments on r/criminalminds.

 

Maybe Erica is now pandering to them? That way, she can attract a sufficient number of viewers without putting up much effort.

 

 

And saying "Let's focus on 300th episode and our "Criminal Minds" family", in response to sexual assault allegations against the crew member, is... dumb. I am all for due process and innocent until proven guilty, but Erica didn't even deny anything (including the alleged cover-up on the showrunners' side), sent the alleged abusee "home for a few days" (instead of, you know, putting him on a leave during the investigation) and just said "Let's focus on the show, everyone". I'm cringing so fucking hard right now.

 

 

At the very least, this shows that she can be really immature and self-centered; even about serious legal matters. Not going into how appaling that attitude is all around, especially towards the victims, which is pretty clear... does such a person sound like a good showrunner for a serious, crime/mystery TV show?

 

I kind of see your point, but I think you're reaching and that "the show is still on the air" doesn't prove anything.

Edited by Mislav
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I don't disagree with some of your quality issues, Mefein, just with the logic of saying Erica has done the show in.   

Mislav, I think you completely missed my point.  It's hardly 'reaching' to count the number of years a show has been on the air under one show runner, and then another.  Whether it meets any one particular fan's quality standards is a different thing entirely.  It doesn't reach mine. 

But I don't think quality is what is causing the show to wind down.  If that were true, it would have been gone years ago.  The point is that it's been on the air longer without the 'quality' some seek, than it was with that 'quality'.  So I don't think the absence of that quality, whether blamed on EM or not, can be cited as the cause for the series coming to a close, whether it does so this year or next.  

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22 minutes ago, JMO said:

I don't disagree with some of your quality issues, Mefein, just with the logic of saying Erica has done the show in.   

Mislav, I think you completely missed my point.  It's hardly 'reaching' to count the number of years a show has been on the air under one show runner, and then another.  Whether it meets any one particular fan's quality standards is a different thing entirely.  It doesn't reach mine. 

But I don't think quality is what is causing the show to wind down.  If that were true, it would have been gone years ago.  The point is that it's been on the air longer without the 'quality' some seek, than it was with that 'quality'.  So I don't think the absence of that quality, whether blamed on EM or not, can be cited as the cause for the series coming to a close, whether it does so this year or next.  

You seem to have misunderstood me. My point was that the number of seasons doesn't equal quality. So saying "Erica can't be a bad showrunner because the show has been on the air for over seven years since she took over" (which is what you pointed out in your previous reply) doesn't prove much. The show can be on the air for years and still be bad. And nobody here complained about the show coming to an end. Most of the negative comments were about the current quality (or a lack of thereof) of the show; and Erica is the showrunner.

 

And yes, the quality of Criminal Minds is subjective; but nobody claimed that it wasn't. If it is all subjective anyway, why even bother bringing up an actual fact (that the show has been on the air for over seven years since Erica took over) and use it as an argument? For comparison, books like "50 Shades of Grey" are crap, and they still sold 100 million copies. Yes, that claim-description ("crap"), too, is subjective. Just a personal opinion. But you'd be hard pressed to find any literature major, professor, critic, or anyone actually experienced in what the book is supposed to be about (BDSM) that has anything good to say about that book (and its sequels). And, at the end of the day, it is pretty difficult to determine how many of the people who bought and read the book actually liked it, rather than just wanting to see what all the hype was about, and hating it once they read it (or even just wanting to see was it really that bad). Which ties into my final argument: just because the show still has sufficient ratings, doesn't mean that it isn't bad (especially when compared to earlier seasons... and I'm not just talking about seasons 1-4, I'd go as far as to say seasons 8 and 9 too). Yes, that is still my opinion, but your reply doesn't really address any points that I have made.

 

 

And nobody is required to agree that viewers who still like "Criminal Minds" are correct in their own way, or that they have a good taste. That defeats the whole purpose of personal opinion. One can hardly both dislike the show, and think that viewers who still enjoy it are completely right all the same.

Edited by Mislav
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5 minutes ago, JMO said:

Missed it again, Mislav.  But there are only so many ways to say the same thing, so I will accept that I am unable to make my point clear.  Over and out.

That was kind of the main issue with your previous replies.

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A lot of you make very good points, including you @Mislav. The thing is, I  feel like Erica Messy (I'm never gonna stop calling her that. Ever) is going for the soap opera route with the wrong characters. I feel like if she wants to do that, she should do with the lead characters not the unsubs. Instead, shes giving the interesting storylines to our unsubs and leaving the viewers to wonder about the personal lives of Prentiss, Rossi, JJ, Matt, Luke and Spencer. We don't even see glimpses of their personal lives anymore. For example, we saw Reid mentioning his mother every now and then and ever since the season 12 finale, we haven't heard of her. That's a whole year. For a character that was kidnapped, almost killed and witnessed her son going to jail, we know nothing about what happened to her afterwards. Don't even get me started with Reid. I mean, the fact that he's still talking and opening up is beyond me so let's not discuss this because it's driving me mental.

Also, the writers (or writer) have been kinda bad about following up with their lead characters. Like JJ, she goes all ninja and tries to track down Osama bin laden or whatever weird ass storyline that was, then we see her talking to the ghost of someone taunting her and she closes his file and yells something like ENOUGH! And poof! There goes her trauma! Forever! I mean, SERIOUSLY?! I know this is television but can we at least focus on the characters and their progress? I feel like the show has exhausted all its unsub scenarios. I think it should start focusing on the aftermath of those cases in relation to the lead characters. Either that, or get some new ideas for unsubs. (And get better writers)

Ever since the start of season 11, we started seeing a great ending and a great first episode of a new season. Then it goes downhill for like 13 episodes straight. After that, we see one or two great potential storylines then a bunch of awful episodes again. Then all of a sudden, the show ends with an incredible finale. It's like they stop giving a crap after the first episode of the new season until the season finale. 


Edit:

I just saw Paget Brewster's post asking us to watch the show. Honestly, part of me wants to kill the show just to get rid of Erica Messy. I can't stand her wishy washy storylines anymore. We need to create a petition to remove her from the show before she drills it to the ground. Get Doris Egan or something!

Edited by K42
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Firstly, thanks to everyone for this really interesting discussion. It's good to be able to discuss and disagree and still remain civil.

We are all coming to this from the same place if you think about it. We are having this debate because we enjoy or enjoyed the show. It was or is important to us. It's in trouble, serious trouble that may very possibly see this once juggernaut show that brought so many ppl together, end. And in all likely hood when it does end, it's not going to do to as it once deserved. So my feeling is, we are all a bit peeved about it and we are all looking to find reasons why this is happening.

I might be completely off on my analysis but I don't think so.

JMO - I guess why I'm pointing the finger at EM is because ultimately the buck stops with her. She has been the show runner for however many years and if her interviews are anything to go by, then the direction the show went was primarily the one she wanted and pushed for. Were there decisions that were taken out of her hands? Sure. We know about some, and can summise on others. But essentially she is the Captsin of the ship. The ship has been going off course for some time and so it's not unreasonable in my view to point a finger or 3 in her direction.

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Someone said that the show should be gritty. I think that was Mislav. With our leadership in the show, that's out the window. There's no grit. And outside. Messy is to blame for this as well. The BAU might as well be a combination of the Cleavers, the Walton's and the Golden Girls.  

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According to the recent news, season 14 of "Criminal Minds" isn't getting a backorder.

 

 

https://popculture.com/tv-shows/2018/11/27/criminal-minds-season-14-misses-back-order-end-episode-15/

 

 

https://criminalmindshub.weebly.com/crim-minds-s14-no-more-episodes.html

 

 

Well, it looks like this will probably be the last season of the show. And only 15 episodes long too. A lot to unpack here...

 

 

I'm going to start with what bothers me the most. First of all, if this season does turn out to be the final one (and that seems quite likely by this point), the only characters [from the current cast] who will reach the series finale with any sort of satisfying conclusion/closure to them are Rossi and JJ. Now, that alone doesn't bother me that much. But what infuriates me is that both JJ and Rossi have reached that closure several seasons ago! Let's face it, JJ's character arc was pretty much complete once she got married to Will and had a child. And Rossi's personal storylines/character development pretty much reached a halt in the first half of season ten, when he found out that he had had a daughter and a grandson that whole time. The writers had 4-5 seasons to focus on other characters, develop them more, give them some new, interesting personal storylines and character arcs, to lead them to some sort of closure/conclusion by the time the show inevitably reached the end; and they didn't. Except with Derek, and they probably only put some effort into that because Shemar decided to leave the show.

 

 

Yes, it is not like JJ and Rossi had nothing to do over the last 4-5 seasons. JJ had a second child by season 11. Rossi reconnected with his second ex-wife in season 11, they decided to just be friends in season 13, and he eventually reconnected with his third ex-wife, and, most recently, even got engaged to her. But none of those storylines held much weight. They weren't featured that prominently to become an important part of the show, they didn't lead to any major changes, the characters (JJ and Rossi) haven't changed or developed in any significant way, and IMO, none of those storylines have been interesting or written well. Had the show ended by season 10, 11, 12 or 13, most of the viewers would probably feel pretty much the same in regards to JJ and Rossi. The only interesting storylines involving Rossi and JJ (post season 9/10) have been Rossi's final showdown with Thomas Yates in 12x9 "Profiling 202", and finding out what led to Rosalyn Jerau's suicide in 14x4 "The Tall Man". And we didn't need four seasons of pandering and recycled arcs to get those two storylines.

 

 

Of course, that isn't even a good justification. The writers could have focused on Rossi and JJ, as well as other characters. They had plenty of time, and opportunities. But still, with JJ and Rossi getting their closure at last, the writers had even more space to focus on other characters. And they didn't. The only arcs they gave them were recycled storylines that were done better before, mostly involving the character(s) and/or their loved ones being in a peril. (Kate's niece being abducted by human traffickers, Derek being abducted and tortured, Savannah getting shot, Tara's brother being abducted and brainwashed by Peter Lewis, Reid being framed for murder and then his mother getting abducted, Peter Lewis going after the whole team, a homicidal cult abducting Reid and Garcia...)

 

 

Spencer Reid... I have no words. What a waste of such a great character. 14 years and almost nothing about him has changed... for the better. Pretty much all of his character arcs and personal storylines have reolved around him suffering, struggling, being miserable, or literally being tortured in some way. Only that, for 14 fucking seasons. As far as we know, he doesn't even have any friends outside the BAU (except for Ethan, who appeared once in season 2 and never again, and lives in New Orleans), let alone a girlfriend (and his only serious love interest was literally murdered in front of him). And now, the show is over. Just great.

 

 

Garcia... in some ways, her character is similar to Reid's. She hasn't suffered nearly as much, but the way they have flanderized her over the years... it has been hard to watch. It pains me to think that the current version of Garcia is the one the show will end with. But I guess it is too late now.

 

 

I honestly don't care enough about neither Matt and Luke to have any meaningful opinion about them, nor how they will end up by the series finale. The sad thing is, they will still probably get more focus than Reid.

 

 

Emily... I don't hate her as the unit chief (although many do), but once again, for the unit chief, she really hasn't had much to do over the last two seasons. Her character development pretty much ended with her departure in season 7 (or her guest appearance in 11x19 "Tribute", depending on how you look at it). That whole romance storyline with Andrew Mendoza was pretty uninteresting to begin with, and it will now definitely lead nowhere (or be rushed af), and only take away from the much-needed build-up to the series finale.

 

 

Tara Lewis could have been an interesting character; I definitely liked her more than Kate Callahan, though not as much as Alex Blake. Sadly, Tara's character development reached a halt in the first half of season 12, following the storyline with her brother. Ever since, she has simply been... there. I doubt she will have anything to do in the series finale either.

 

 

There wasn't ever a strong chance that Thomas Gibson would make an appearance in a series finale, not even after Virgil Williams left the show, but considering how rushed the finale will undoubtebly be, I doubt Hotch will even be mentioned, let alone maybe get a flashback scene from a previous episode, showing him.

 

 

Of course, all of this is nothing new. The show has been going downhill for years, and I've made my feelings perfectly clear multiple times. But, over the years, I still hold on to the faint hope that we will eventually get a great (or, at least, remotely good) final season, or at least a satisfying series finale... it was a weak, naive hope, but hope never the less. I guess that is pretty much gone now too. It doesn't seem to have much basis in reality anymore, anyway... 

 

 

And it is not like writers and producers have a strong motivation to put up a serious effort into the series finale anyway. That will literally be the final episode of the show, it is not like they have to worry about the low(er) ratings the next season. They might be worried about the syndication money, but they've probably made millions by this point anyway.

 

 

[I do know that, after "Cold Case" was canceled, the fans started "Fictional season 8". They would write the episodes themselves (in the story form), and post them on the page called ColdCasePedia. I think the page has since been taken down, but it was definitely a thing until recently. (There might be records of it on webarchive.) Maybe we could try something like that? "Criminal Minds fictional season 15"? It wouldn't be officially canon, of course, but it would give za a voice and provide some sort of closure. If anyone is interested, feel free to pm me; but keep in mind, it is only the idea at this stage. Of course, it would Probably have to be posted on Fanfiction.net, because I doubt that the mods on Criminal Minds Wiki would allow it.]

 

 

Lastly, I doubt they will even feature an interesting case in the series finale. I mean, by this point, the BAU has taken down serial killers who literally murdered hundreds of victims and/or targeted the BAU personally, human trafficking ring selling victims to serial killer on the dark web, a hitmen ring (also operating on the dark web), a cult literally responsible for hundreds of murders over the decades... what's left? Let me guess, the unsub(s) go after the someone from the team, or even the whole team, putting everyone in the peril. Or maybe Cat Adams goes after Reid again. So intense, so original... *rolleyes*

 

 

Honestly, this is the only remotely interesting idea for "Criminal Minds" finale that I managed to come up with:

 

 

The unsub starts murdering the unsubs that the BAU previously captured (or investigated). He starts with the ones that have been released from prison and mental institutions (or have been at large all along), then progresses to actually infiltrating prisons and mental institutions in order to murder the unsubs that are still incarcerated or institutionalized; sometimes resorting to assassinating them in elaborate ways or pulling off complex murders by proxy if he can't actually gain access to them. The BAU is called in to investigate, of course, but even they seem powerless to stop him. Still, they use [actual] profiling, and figure out that the unsubs is intentionally leaving clues for them, with every new murder. Those clues lead them to multiple unsolved homicide cases, spanning all over the USA, some dating back years. They realize that the unsub they are looking for has been killing for years, being what many profilers consider to be a myth: "Suspect-zero" type of serial killer. The serial killer who murders various different victims (of different sex, age, race etc.) in many different ways, in many different areas, for no typical serial killer motive (sexual sadism, revenge, thrill-kill, financial gain), using a varied M.O., without leaving any eyewitnesses or forensic evidence behind. (There is an interesting psychological thriller about that:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspect_Zero)

 

 

The unsub has been getting away with it for decades, and eventually got bored. But rather than turning himself in, he decided to to after "the most dangerous game"; other serial killers. Monster hunting down other monsters. Bonus points if the unsub is murdering other unsubs the same way they would murder their victims. The BAU has to put all the efforts possible in order to track down possibly the most brazen unsub they have ever faced.

 

 

I think the series finale should be a two-parter, or even a three-parter. The title of the episode(s) should either be "Suspect Zero", or "Unsub", or "Criminal Mind".

 

 

The unsubs that I would like to see featured as the victims or potential victims in the series finale:

 

 

• Richard Slessman from 1x1 "Extreme Aggressor"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Richard_Slessman

 

 

• The Footpath Killer (real name unrevealed) from 1x1 "Extreme Aggressor" and 1x2 "Compulsion"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/The_Footpath_Killer

 

 

• Clara Hayes from 1x2 "Compulsion"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Clara_Hayes

 

 

• Adrian Bale from 1x3 "Won't Get Fooled Again"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Adrian_Bale

 

 

• Franklin Graney ("The Tommy Killer") from 1x4 "Plain Sight"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Franklin_Graney

 

 

• Karl Arnold from 1x7 "The Fox" and 5x8 "Outfoxed"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Karl_Arnold

 

 

• Vincent Perotta from 1x8 " Natural Born Killer"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Vincent_Perotta

 

 

• Eddie Mays from 1x11 "Blood Hungry"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Eddie_Mays

 

 

• Amber Canardo from 2x3 "The Perfect Storm"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Amber_Canardo

 

 

• The Mill Creek Killer (real name unrevealed) from 2x9 "The Last Word" (that was the first episode Emily Prentiss appeared in)

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/The_Mill_Creek_Killer

 

 

• Terrance Wakeland from 2x16 "Fear and Loathing"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Terrance_Wakeland

 

 

• Sarah Danlin from 2x18 "Jones"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Sarah_Danlin

 

 

• Gary (last name unrevealed) from 3x4 "Children of the Dark"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Gary

 

 

• Susan & Richard Jacobs from 3x5 "Seven Seconds"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Susan_Jacobs

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Richard_Jacobs

 

 

• Floyd Feylinn Ferell from 3x8 "Lucky" and 13x5 "Lucky Strikes"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Floyd_Feylinn_Ferell

 

 

• Jonny McHale from 3x10 "True Night"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Jonny_McHale

 

 

• Owen Savage from 3x16 "Elephant's Memory"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Owen_Savage

 

 

• Norman Hill from 4x11 "Normal"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Norman_Hill

 

 

• Tommy Wheeler from 4x19 "House on Fire"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Tommy_Wheeler

 

 

• Adam Jackson from 4x20 "Conflicted"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Adam_Jackson

 

 

• Danny Murphy from 4x21 "A Shade of Gray" 

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Danny_Murphy

 

 

• Joe Belser from 5x10 "The Slave of Duty"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Joe_Belser

 

 

• Samantha Malcolm from 5x12 "The Uncanny Valley"

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Samantha_Malcolm

 

 

• Robert Johnson from 5x23 "The Internet is Forever"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Robert_Johnson

 

 

• Kaman Scott from 6x6 "Devil's Night"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Kaman_Scott

 

 

• Shane Wyland from 6x9 "Into the Woods"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Shane_Wyland

 

 

• Blake Wells from 6x23 "Big Sea"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Blake_Wells

 

 

• Hamilton Bartholomew ("The Piano Man") from 7x12 "Unknown Subject"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Hamilton_Bartholomew

 

 

• Malcolm Ford from 7x20 "The Company"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Malcolm_Ford

 

 

• Izzy Rogers from 7x23 "Hit" and 7x24 "Run"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Izzy_Rogers

 

 

• Darlene Beckett from 8x2 "The Pact"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Darlene_Beckett

 

 

• Sera Morrison from 8x14 "All That Remains"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Sera_Morrison

 

 

• Torry Champan from 8x19 "Pay It Forward"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Tory_Chapman

 

 

• Wayne Gulino from 9x8 "The Return"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Wayne_Gulino

 

 

• Charles Johnson from 9x9 "Strange Fruit"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Charles_Johnson

 

 

• Sue Walsh from 9x16 "Gabby"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Sue_Walsh

 

 

• Joe Bachner from 9x19 "The Edge of Winter"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Joe_Bachner

 

 

• The Killer Woodsman (real name unrevealed) from 9x21 "Blood Relations"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/The_Killer_Woodsman

 

 

• Mitchell Crossford from 11x2 "The Witness"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Mitchell_Crossford

 

 

• Cat Adams from 11x11 "Entropy", 12x21 "Green Light" and 12x22 "Red Light"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Cat_Adams

 

 

• Sharon Mayford ("The Bomber") from 11x11 "Entropy" (Cat Adams' accomplice)

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Sharon_Mayford

 

 

• Lindsey Vaughn from 3x12 "3rd Life", 12x20 "Unforgettable", 12x21 "Green Light" and 12x22 "Red Light"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Lindsey_Vaughn

 

 

• Antonia Slade from 11x21 "Devil's Backbone" and 11x22 "The Storm"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Antonia_Slade

 

 

• Ethan Howard from 14x4 "The Tall Man"

 

 

https://criminalminds.fandom.com/wiki/Ethan_Howard

 

 

Of course, not all of them can be included in the episode(s) (and not all the actors and actresses would be available anyway), but those are all the suggestions I have.

 

And yes, it is not like that would be the most realistic episode, but at least the writers and producers would have an excuse to do something big and different, as well as revisit the old cases; being a series finale and all...

 

Revisiting those old cases could also provide them with an excuse to bring back some past characters: Derek Morgan (though he often makes guest appearances anyway), Alex Blake, Ashley Seaver, Kate Callahan, maybe even Elle Greenaway.

 

But, of course, it's not like the writers will listen to me.

 

But honestly, I wouldn't mind if the series finale ended with a reveal that everything post season 9 finale was a coma-dream Reid had after being shot in the neck.

 

 

Lastly, I remember reading that one post on "Criminal Minds" IMDb messages boards; back in 2014 or 2015, during season 10, when the show really started going downhill, but most of is still had hope, and "the favorite team" was still there, intact (minus Emily). On that IMDb thread, the poster shared his/her idea for "Criminal Minds" finale. I don't remember all the specifics, but it was a pretty good idea and a satisfying conclusion, featuring all of the beloved characters who were still on the show back then, including Derek Morgan and Aaron Hotchner. And, at the end, the poster wrote something along the lines of "But, knowing CBS, they will probably continue to milk this show until half or more of the old cast is gone, replaced by bland new characters that nobody cares about". Sadly, he/she was right.

 

 

Anyway, I still really enjoyed posting on this forum over the years, and I'd like to thank everyone for their collaboration and understanding. Especially BookishJen, Danielg342, mefein, secnarf, ReidFan, thewhiteowl, JMO, Hotchgirl18, normasm, Willowy, Annber03, illdoc and K42. I wish you the best.

Edited by Mislav
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On 10/11/2018 at 7:32 AM, Mislav said:

Between a bunch of new characters being brought in, Rossi finding out he had a daughter and a grandson the whole time, bunch of serial killers breaking out of prison, Spencer being framed for murder (and ending up in prison instead of, you know, jail), and, most recently, a cult targeting the BAU (resulting in Spencer and Garcia getting abducted), the last few seasons of "Criminal Minds" read like a really bad fanfic.

 

 

Considering all that, Erica Messer really baffles me. The way she addressed the recent sexual assault allegations against the crew member was terrible. It is like she lives in her own "reality". 

 

 

Maybe that explains the focus on new characters such as Matt and Luke, as well as on overused characters like JJ, and a lack of any development or new, interesting storylines regarding Spencer and Rossi (no, I don't like the whole ex-wives bs). Erica keeps pushing the uninteresting new characters down our throats because she identifies with them. They reflect her: bland, shallow, uninspired and pandering. It is like they made a 13-year-old girl the showrunner.

 

 

And what's all that with "Criminal Minds family"? This used to be an interesting, gritty, thought provoking crime-mystery show where FBI agents used (relatively realistic) psychological profiling in order to catch serial killers, spree killers, serial rapists, abductors, mass murderers, terrorists... experts trying to think like monsters in order to catch them. How on Earth has it become some sort of over the top family-friendly soap opera/action show? A parody of itself. How does anyone mess up so badly?

Yeah. Erica is a toddler basically. She is also a raging misandrist. Her sexism is so blatantly obvious. Someone needs to give her a coloring book and send the child to Barney and Friends. I hear the content area is up her alley. 

On 10/11/2018 at 9:25 AM, mefein said:

This is in response to Mislav. I tried picking specifics but my tablet is having s bad day..?

Anyone who watch CM from the beginning as I did, would never disagree that the show changed drastically when Messer took over and not for the better. Yes we have the 'change is good' but we also have  'if it's not broken...' and in my view, it was not broken. 

in her defence, a lot of changes happened around that time. I was much more invested in the show that time and I know through sources and some information that is now public knowledge, that there was a big shakeup behind the scenes. One that in my view was the death nail for the show.

Theres a lot could be examined about what went wrong and we could fill many threads on that, but to keep with your points on Messer, I agree. She tried to turn the show into a soap opera and it has failed miserably which was to be expected. I find her interviews cringe worthy, always did. I remember way back when there was a very vocal and at times out of control group on Twitter who were Hotch/Prentiss shippers. Every other interview it was brought up. Would Hotch and Prentiss get together. Thomas was adamant it would not happen and explained that it would take from the show, the character and bring the show in the wrong direction. Back in the days of Ed Bernero, that had been the discussion.

But the shippers persisted and Messer and Brewster would put them into a frenzy with hints, Thomas would say nope and even from that small thing you could see where there were going to be possible conflicts.

Then when Bellamy Young came on board, the shippers went berserk. 

Still Messer did not learn and she continued to drop these little hints and maybes and still Thomas was ..NOPE ?

Thats just a small example of so much that went wrong under her watch. Without doubt, the writing was the biggest failure. Even when my people, my favourite cast makeup were there, there were many times I could visibly see them struggling with the dialogue. I downloaded some scripts once and read them....?

And yes Mislav, all this happy clappy 'family' BS, or the 'our heros'. It's cringeworthy and now knowing what was going on behind the scenes, it's insulting. I've made my feelings clear on that. She ought to be ashamed. 

I lost my way with this show some time ago but could not quite completely cut the strings. I feel a bit sad at how it has declined and don't buy the 'it's an old show' excuse. Yes, it's an old show and it's natural that it wouldn't hit the high notes of early days, BUT in my opinion, it is not age that has destroyed this show, it's immaturity. She and those who came on board with her were handed a brilliant product, a little wounded but ultimately with the right attitude, it would have weathered that storm and come back fighting. Sad.

 

sorry about the long and winding essay. I don't get a lot of time on so have to say a lot at once! 

Which is the real reason for Thomas 's firing. Erica was determined to get her soap opera and her social justice political show no matter what. Erica never minced words about how she would do anything to bring Prentiss back. 

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21 hours ago, Mislav said:

Anyway, I still really enjoyed posting on this forum over the years, and I'd like to thank everyone for their collaboration and understanding. Especially BookishJen, Danielg342, mefein, secnarf, ReidFan, thewhiteowl, JMO, Hotchgirl18, normasm, Willowy, Annber03, illdoc and K42. I wish you the best.

 

Your post broke my heart. You're right about everything. I honestly can't believe what they did to that show. There are a lot of great writers out there. Doris Egan is great. I wish she would hop on board with this. (Been a fan since Tru Calling). It's like the writers got lost after TG was fired. I don't understand what happened. I really don't. I don't understand how the show turned to shit after Reid's prison storyline. I just don't get it. I feel.. sad. I was 14 when the show aired. It really hurts me to see it go downhill. 

As for the show ending at episode 15, I think it's just for this season. Meaning, it's supposed to come back for a 15th season. I don't know how yet but I don't think it will get cancelled... unless you guys know something that I don't. I don't really follow up with what goes on behind the scenes.
 

21 hours ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

Yeah. Erica is a toddler basically. She is also a raging misandrist. Her sexism is so blatantly obvious. Someone needs to give her a coloring book and send the child to Barney and Friends. I hear the content area is up her alley. 

Which is the real reason for Thomas 's firing. Erica was determined to get her soap opera and her social justice political show no matter what. Erica never minced words about how she would do anything to bring Prentiss back. 


 

Everybody seems to hate Erica. I might be out of the loop but can you tell me why everyone dislikes her so much?  I know all of the above but in terms of the episodes, how much is she responsible for writing the characters? I paid attention to few episodes she was involved in and they were bad, but people seem to hate her on a bigger scale. Is there something going on behind the scenes? There are other writers involved, does she influence them to write characters a certain way? 

Edited by K42
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On 12/3/2018 at 11:37 AM, K42 said:

Your post broke my heart. You're right about everything. I honestly can't believe what they did to that show. There are a lot of great writers out there. Doris Egan is great. I wish she would hop on board with this. (Been a fan since Tru Calling). It's like the writers got lost after TG was fired. I don't understand what happened. I really don't. I don't understand how the show turned to shit after Reid's prison storyline. I just don't get it. I feel.. sad. I was 14 when the show aired. It really hurts me to see it go downhill. 

As for the show ending at episode 15, I think it's just for this season. Meaning, it's supposed to come back for a 15th season. I don't know how yet but I don't think it will get cancelled... unless you guys know something that I don't. I don't really follow up with what goes on behind the scenes.
 


 

Everybody seems to hate Erica. I might be out of the loop but can you tell me why everyone dislikes her so much?  I know all of the above but in terms of the episodes, how much is she responsible for writing the characters? I paid attention to few episodes she was involved in and they were bad, but people seem to hate her on a bigger scale. Is there something going on behind the scenes? There are other writers involved, does she influence them to write characters a certain way? 

She's responsible for the show becoming LESS intelligent and cerebral and turning into a soap opera. The buck stops with her and she's okaying a lot of crap. I 100% believe she had a direct hand in TG's firing. She's a high school girl in a grown woman's body. 

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11 hours ago, Hotchgirl18 said:

She's responsible for the show becoming LESS intelligent and cerebral and turning into a soap opera. The buck stops with her and she's okaying a lot of crap. I 100% believe she had a direct hand in TG's firing. She's a high school girl in a grown woman's body. 

For me, the show started going downhill as soon as the Spencer Storyline was over. Basically in season 13 onwards. Before that, I feel like the show was still interesting. I never understood why Prentiss and Hotch never got together though. I don't know how long Erica has been with the show. All I know is the show declined starting from Season13e01 onwards. God, that season was atrocious beyond words. Season 14 is just.. boring. And confusing. It has the weirdest turns in each storyline.

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On 03/12/2018 at 12:37 PM, K42 said:

Everybody seems to hate Erica. I might be out of the loop but can you tell me why everyone dislikes her so much?  I know all of the above but in terms of the episodes, how much is she responsible for writing the characters? I paid attention to few episodes she was involved in and they were bad, but people seem to hate her on a bigger scale. Is there something going on behind the scenes? There are other writers involved, does she influence them to write characters a certain way?

Erica Messer took over as showrunner- which means the overseer of CM's arcs, their scripts, their story directions and ultimately their characterizations- in Season 7, replacing the departed (and far superior) Edward Allen Bernero.

I'm of two minds when it comes to how I view Messer's work. On the one hand, I find it undeniable that the show's quality has declined sharply since she took over, because her style of writing just didn't fit with how the show worked. She seems far more interested in characters' personal lives and exploring things like family and telling really, deeply personal stories that just don't work on a procedural where cast turnover is always a threat, especially in a show's later years. While I know that Bernero had his character-centric episodes in his day, Messer took the concept further, almost making the focal character that episode's "star" to the detriment of everyone else. She never really did get the concept that this is a "team" effort.

On the other hand...Messer has taken a show that has been meddled with by the upper brass- irreparably and constantly so- weathered quite a few storms (such as the Thomas Gibson situation) and one that arguably had its best days before she took over...and she kept that show a hit for six seasons and one that is still on the air after eight seasons. That's not someone who "doesn't know what they're doing". Now, I don't know how much of the audience watches Criminal Minds out of a sense of loyalty (I know I do) or how much of CM staying on the air is it doing so "in spite of itself" but I don't think a showrunner keeps a show on the air for eight seasons without at least having some skill for the job.

I mean...Messer's CM may not have been a hit in my eyes, but I can't deny that something has to be working about it. I think it's because Messer is really good at "getting personal" and exploring one's demons. Which should work for CM, and it did every now and then, but it doesn't fit with CM's style. CM is all about the clues and how the team catches the bad guy, it's not a show "about" someone.

That's where I think Messer ultimately failed- she's not used to writing cases, and it's not the kind of writing she wants to do. Doing fifty different feints isn't her style- it's taking someone, exploring their inner selves, and writing about how they overcome what holds them back, or their struggle to do so. It works on a show like Party of Five or even Alias (both of which were her former shows), and it worked in a large part of the episodes she was responsible for before she became showrunner (like "Unfinished Business" or "Mosley Lane"), but it doesn't work for the show overall.

On 02/12/2018 at 3:08 PM, Mislav said:

Anyway, I still really enjoyed posting on this forum over the years, and I'd like to thank everyone for their collaboration and understanding. Especially BookishJen, Danielg342, mefein, secnarf, ReidFan, thewhiteowl, JMO, Hotchgirl18, normasm, Willowy, Annber03, illdoc and K42. I wish you the best.

Thank you. Even if this season is the last, I don't think it'll be the last of this sub-forum. We still have the older episodes to discuss.

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5 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Erica Messer took over as showrunner- which means the overseer of CM's arcs, their scripts, their story directions and ultimately their characterizations- in Season 7, replacing the departed (and far superior) Edward Allen Bernero.

I'm of two minds when it comes to how I view Messer's work. On the one hand, I find it undeniable that the show's quality has declined sharply since she took over, because her style of writing just didn't fit with how the show worked. She seems far more interested in characters' personal lives and exploring things like family and telling really, deeply personal stories that just don't work on a procedural where cast turnover is always a threat, especially in a show's later years. While I know that Bernero had his character-centric episodes in his day, Messer took the concept further, almost making the focal character that episode's "star" to the detriment of everyone else. She never really did get the concept that this is a "team" effort.

On the other hand...Messer has taken a show that has been meddled with by the upper brass- irreparably and constantly so- weathered quite a few storms (such as the Thomas Gibson situation) and one that arguably had its best days before she took over...and she kept that show a hit for six seasons and one that is still on the air after eight seasons. That's not someone who "doesn't know what they're doing". Now, I don't know how much of the audience watches Criminal Minds out of a sense of loyalty (I know I do) or how much of CM staying on the air is it doing so "in spite of itself" but I don't think a showrunner keeps a show on the air for eight seasons without at least having some skill for the job.

I mean...Messer's CM may not have been a hit in my eyes, but I can't deny that something has to be working about it. I think it's because Messer is really good at "getting personal" and exploring one's demons. Which should work for CM, and it did every now and then, but it doesn't fit with CM's style. CM is all about the clues and how the team catches the bad guy, it's not a show "about" someone.

That's where I think Messer ultimately failed- she's not used to writing cases, and it's not the kind of writing she wants to do. Doing fifty different feints isn't her style- it's taking someone, exploring their inner selves, and writing about how they overcome what holds them back, or their struggle to do so. It works on a show like Party of Five or even Alias (both of which were her former shows), and it worked in a large part of the episodes she was responsible for before she became showrunner (like "Unfinished Business" or "Mosley Lane"), but it doesn't work for the show overall.

Thank you. Even if this season is the last, I don't think it'll be the last of this sub-forum. We still have the older episodes to discuss.

I think part of what made the show continue running is that in the middle of every season, some twist happens that ends quickly. Her episodes also end with a good cliffhanger that gets resolved in an underwhelming fracture of a second in episode 1 of the new season. I think she builds expectations through last episodes that keep getting the show renewed. Only problem is, it goes nowhere. That's my main issue with her. Another thing I have with her is that I feel like she's forgetful when it comes to certain characters. I know I keep mentioning this but what happened to Reid's headaches and memory problems? I think in season 4 or 5 they mentioned that and it's like they forgot about it. That's just one of the many inconsistencies that ruin the show for me. 

As for this season, I don't think it's going to end. I think it'll end with a jaw-dropping cliffhanger (preferably with Spencer since he's the show's punching bag) and it'll get renewed because everybody wants to see what'll happen to the forever immature genius that is Spencer. 

Edited by K42
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@K42, I wouldn't put the cliffhanger solely on Messer- technically, only the first six seasons, S13 and maybe S11 ended on a cliffhanger. Messer does seem to like the two-part finale and a more serialized story, which don't fit with CM's style. She also likes putting characters in peril as her way of building the finale's tension, which loses its potency the more times she goes to that well and the less that I actually car4 about the characters.

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Not sure this is right thread for this, as its more a 'wish for what could have been' or 'what should have happened' with the show......

When the show hit the decade mark (10th season), they should have realized the constant 'overused stressors & UnSub types' procedural was well past its shelf date and turned the series into a serial.  And by serial, I don't mean the weak-sauce arcs like Mr. Scratch - who couldn't really be called a 'serial arc' because his story only showed up in random once in a blue moon themed-episodes after his initial introduction.

I wish I could feel more guilty and/or upset in admitting I have not (truly) been keeping up with CM - haven't caught up since after this season's premiere (to see the conclusion to Reid's predicament to end S13).  Honestly, its just plain boring and predictable.  And for the last few seasons, I'm always left with a "seen this exact type of episode so many times before" after most non-arc standalone eps, and heck even in the eps in the "Reid in prison" arc, that when not dealing with Reid's time in prison but dealing with the team & their USotW cases.


Maybe serializing wouldn't have automatically made it better, but at least it would have a definable direction and reason to make it worth the time and effort to stay up on things.

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14 hours ago, iRarelyWatchTV36 said:

Maybe serializing wouldn't have automatically made it better, but at least it would have a definable direction and reason to make it worth the time and effort to stay up on things.

I would definitely agree there should have been more arcs- and better attempts at "thinking outside the box" than what our writers have been giving us. I don't know about outright serialization- I fear that might change the show "too much"- but putting in those elements I'm all in favour of.

One thing I've always wanted the show to do was to show a serial killer develop right from Day 1. We're always watching killers operate after they snap so I think it would be interesting to see one where we saw him (or her) before they snapped, and how they react to it once they do. We'd see this evolution as the season progresses and see them develop as more confident killers (with their town being thrown into greater and greater panic) with the BAU catching them at the end of the season. Maybe we also throw in the detective who's following this killer as they evolve and we can see how the case wears on the detective until they see fit to call in the BAU.

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I originally started watching this because I am a huge Buffy fan and knew Nic Brendon was on it, it was interesting and a good source for Buffy alumni (Juliet Landau, Mercedes McNab, Michelle Tractenberg a revelation as the girl who killed Reed's girlfriend). I sort of lost interest when Hotch left, it got very repetitive and I think they're right to end it. So what do you think they should have for the final ep?

1. After a horrendous screw-up the FBI hold an internal hearing as to whether the unit should continue (a good opportunity for past stars to cameo).  

2.  The BAU have caught every single serial killer in America so take on cases of political corruption, collusion with foreign governments, campaign finance violations, dodgy deals with uranium and improper use of government emails. 

3.  Rossi retires and mulls over past cases as he ponders as to his replacement. 

4. The FBI do a survey of the BAU's methods and discover that they are no more than inspired guesswork (which may be the case in real life) so shut down the unit. 

5.  Thomas Gibson wakes up in bed, turns to the blonde woman lying next to him and says "Dharma I just had the weirdest dream" 

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I like the idea of Rossi retiring. Rossi's last case could be the series finale. Once the BAU catches the bad guy, they could show us Rossi's retirement party. A retirement party could be a good excuse to try and get back some past team members. I also like the idea of the show ending with the team getting called to another case, to show that life and their job will go on. I think it would be cool if everyone was gathered at Rossi's retirement party, and then the current BAU team gets called on another case. 

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48 minutes ago, Mislav said:

I shudder to think about the finale.

I have a feeling my reaction will be something along the lines of: "I was prepared for the worst and I'm still devastated."

LOL. I don't think I even have it in me to be devastated anymore. I suppose it's a good thing. Or not. I don't know.. 

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That the last line is whoever is in charge of the team by the end saying ‘Wheels up in thirty.’ Cut to black. 

I’d like it if we just felt like life goes on, even if we aren’t watching it anymore.

I used to want to see the plane carrying them all to fly off into the sunset, but that’s too cheesy for me now. 

But I doubt I will ever watch the last episode, or even the last season. And I have watched just about every episode of this thing (some way more than twice). I have a really strong feeling that it is going to be absolutely terrible. A disaster of biblical proportions. With ten episodes left, I expect the writers to go nuts - total team carnage, team members having sex, team death, memory loss, houses burning down, paralysis, blindness, team members shooting at each other, human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria... 

And I am not here for that. Wake me when it’s over.

Edited by Lebanna
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9 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

I originally started watching this because I am a huge Buffy fan and knew Nic Brendon was on it, it was interesting and a good source for Buffy alumni (Juliet Landau, Mercedes McNab, Michelle Tractenberg a revelation as the girl who killed Reed's girlfriend). I sort of lost interest when Hotch left, it got very repetitive and I think they're right to end it. So what do you think they should have for the final ep?

1. After a horrendous screw-up the FBI hold an internal hearing as to whether the unit should continue (a good opportunity for past stars to cameo).  

2.  The BAU have caught every single serial killer in America so take on cases of political corruption, collusion with foreign governments, campaign finance violations, dodgy deals with uranium and improper use of government emails. 

3.  Rossi retires and mulls over past cases as he ponders as to his replacement. 

4. The FBI do a survey of the BAU's methods and discover that they are no more than inspired guesswork (which may be the case in real life) so shut down the unit. 

5.  Thomas Gibson wakes up in bed, turns to the blonde woman lying next to him and says "Dharma I just had the weirdest dream" 

2. So they investigate what's going on right now?  Lol.😀😀

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I've always felt that Rossi's retirement should be the end of the show. I don't really think anything else would be appropriate- the team should be continuing past the 15th season because that's what would actually happen, and I tend to believe the better finales are the ones that are understated. I tend to think of how Angel ended with the last scene being the team getting ready for a fight because, as Joss Whedon said, "the fight always goes on", and the BAU's case is no different.

That said, I'm with @Mislav- we're going to get something ridiculously over the top, ham-fisted, nonsensical mess of an episode because these writers want to be "grandiose" and believe they're leaving us with an episode "we're going to be talking about for years". It'll play a lot like how Gotham has played the past few years- "anyone can die", over-the-top gore, cheap emotional moments, nonsensical, over-the-top, poorly thought out cases with 300 feints and lazy police officers. All done "because, drama" and without any thought about if the story actually makes sense or not.

I will say that I have thought it may be interesting to have a killer who hunts and actually kills team members because that puts actual drama into the "team members in peril" storylines, but it is a bit too "horror movie"-ish and I could see the show playing it like a cheap horror movie.

My lone prediction- and I don't think anyone will like it (I certainly don't)- is that Reid is going to die. Because, what else can they do to him? He's their designated "tragic character" and there's an old saying about how tragedies only have one way to end. Sadly, that is.

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6 hours ago, Lebanna said:

With ten episodes left, I expect the writers to go nuts - total team carnage, team members having , team death, memory loss, houses burning down, paralysis, blindness, team members shooting at each other, human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together, mass hysteria... 

And I am not here for that. Wake me when it’s over.

Everytime I see someone on FB, here and elsewhere say how happy and grateful they are that CBS allowed the show to have a "proper ending", even though I don't say it out loud, my first reaction is : "How do you know it's going to be a proper ending ? Because Messer said so ? Best to wait a few months and see how... proper it's gonna be."

Personally, I'm just gonna wait for everyone and their momma to watch season 15, then I'm gonna read all the comments and reviews from everywhere before I decide if it's worth me giving it the time of the day.

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I like Rossi, but I don’t see him as ‘the’ character of the show.     ‘ the’ characters of the show, to me are the ones still left from season 1- Reid, Garcia and J.J. 

Those  3 should move on in the final episode. Reid to teaching, Garcia to victims rights advocacy ( a blast from the past), and JJ to something- even I have no idea what.  If the guy that played Kevin hadn’t messed up in real life, I would have loved to see him and Garcia together. 

Emily came pretty early. I’d love to see her adopt a child and move on a personal life free from profiling.  

I’d like Rossi to dump his fiancée, move to where his daughter and grandson are and continue to write books. If  we have to accept he has a daughter, then he should start acting like it. 

Whom does that leave? Tara, Matt and Luke. They can just continue to be profilers. Let’s ship them out to a case early in the final episode- not to be seen the rest of the episode.  

For previous cast members  ( how many characters are there that aren’t dead (Gideon, Walker)  or disgraced(Elle).  Morgan’s return appearances have been awkward. Shemar should only come back if he remembers how to be Morgan. 

Maybe a cameo appearance by Blake as a guest lecturer where Reid teaches.   The ill suited blonde  That lasted one season can stay gone. 

Edited by mythoughtis
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1 hour ago, SSA Emily Prentiss said:

Everytime I see someone on FB, here and elsewhere say how happy and grateful they are that CBS allowed the show to have a "proper ending", even though I don't say it out loud, my first reaction is : "How do you know it's going to be a proper ending ? Because Messer said so ? Best to wait a few months and see how... proper it's gonna be."

Personally, I'm just gonna wait for everyone and their momma to watch season 15, then I'm gonna read all the comments and reviews from everywhere before I decide if it's worth me giving it the time of the day.

Well, at least CBS allowed them the opportunity! That's all they can do. After that, the ball is in the showrunners' court.

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The way I would like to see it would be the team resolving the case or story arc.  No one is going to die, no one is going to be maimed.  After the events Dave decides it time for him to retire so he can enjoy the time with his wife.  There is a small retirement party at his place.  At some point the team gets called away on the new case.  Each say their goodbye as they head out.  Alone with his cigar, Dave thinks back fondly over the year and we see flashbacks to cases and former members.  Then it all fades to black and life goes on.

As to the time jump mentioned, I don't think it is going to be anything of importance.  I don't think the season final is going to be a cliffhanger so the jump is probably going to cover the months from there to the beginning of the season. Sort of like the six month jump they did with Derek after he was kidnapped.  

I'm looking forward to it all.  I've been with the show from day one, stuck with it even after Paget left and will be there for the final episode.

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11 minutes ago, CrimeFan12 said:

The way I would like to see it would be the team resolving the case or story arc.  No one is going to die, no one is going to be maimed.  After the events Dave decides it time for him to retire so he can enjoy the time with his wife.  There is a small retirement party at his place.  At some point the team gets called away on the new case.  Each say their goodbye as they head out.  Alone with his cigar, Dave thinks back fondly over the year and we see flashbacks to cases and former members.  Then it all fades to black and life goes on.

Aw, I like this :). Yeah. A retirement party, or everyone gathering for a book signing, or something of that sort, would be a nice way to wrap things up. And if none of the team members make a decision to leave the BAU, I'd also be fine with the show ending with them preparing to work another case. 

Quote

I'm looking forward to it all.  I've been with the show from day one, stuck with it even after Paget left and will be there for the final episode.

Agreed. I really don't get all the doomsaying about some sort of horrible finale with destruction and death and whatnot. Do I think they may have the team go through some kind of dramatic case in the series finale? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty likely. But I think they're all very well aware of how important these characters are to us, and how we would prefer to see them leave on a happy note, and I think the cast would want to have a happy ending for their characters as well. So I've no doubt we'll see that in the series finale, too. If there's any disappointments from fans, it'll likely be because some will be upset that their favorite ship didn't become canon, or they may feel this or that character's final storyline didn't get enough screen time, or a former team member they wanted to see didn't show up, or things of that sort. 

Anywho, as for my wishes, as noted above, I just want a happy wrap-up for all the characters, be it personally or professionally speaking (or both). I'd love to see as many of the former team members pop up as they can manage to get, too (and in the case of Gideon, Walker, and Hotch, a nice little flashback or nod to them). And the ones that can't show up, it'd be good to hear what's been going on with them over the years. 

Beyond that, I'll go with whatever the show's got planned. 

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7 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Aw, I like this :). Yeah. A retirement party, or everyone gathering for a book signing, or something of that sort, would be a nice way to wrap things up. And if none of the team members make a decision to leave the BAU, I'd also be fine with the show ending with them preparing to work another case. 

Agreed. I really don't get all the doomsaying about some sort of horrible finale with destruction and death and whatnot. Do I think they may have the team go through some kind of dramatic case in the series finale? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty likely. But I think they're all very well aware of how important these characters are to us, and how we would prefer to see them leave on a happy note, and I think the cast would want to have a happy ending for their characters as well. So I've no doubt we'll see that in the series finale, too. If there's any disappointments from fans, it'll likely be because some will be upset that their favorite ship didn't become canon, or they may feel this or that character's final storyline didn't get enough screen time, or a former team member they wanted to see didn't show up, or things of that sort. 

Anywho, as for my wishes, as noted above, I just want a happy wrap-up for all the characters, be it personally or professionally speaking (or both). I'd love to see as many of the former team members pop up as they can manage to get, too (and in the case of Gideon, Walker, and Hotch, a nice little flashback or nod to them). And the ones that can't show up, it'd be good to hear what's been going on with them over the years. 

Beyond that, I'll go with whatever the show's got planned. 

I totally agree with that.  As to seeing former characters popping up, I don't need to see that.  They have a finite number of minutes to do the episode and they don't need to waste precious time on cameos.  A short montage will work just fine with me.  To me the focus should remain on the current team.  If former characters can't contribute to the case and episode, there's no need for them.  

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3 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

I wouldn't want an entire episode that's just a bunch of clips, no. But I can see them highlighting the occasional memorable clip here and there depending on the situation. 

I concur.  I find them a tad boring and a waste of time.  I would rather have a case.

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