Criminal Minds Analysis: Profile The Show

Bookish Jen · May 20, 2015

It does seem like he could've turned out to be quite the prick, doesn't it? I think he must have some excellent parents. And maybe the awkwardness and bullying he claims to have experienced when he was young helped develop his empathy, because he seems very kind. I do however think that, while his parents likely did likely pay for his education, all the other opportunities he enjoyed were of his own doing. He says everything sort of fell into his lap but I think he sells himself short, beginning with landing that internship with Anderson.

That said, he does seem as though he might poop gold ingots.

Matthew’s life, career, success and good fortune is due to great parentage, economic privilege, an excellent education, golden opportunities, and top notch connections. But a lot of it has to do with his strong work ethic, various talents, ability to connect with the right people and all-around decent nature. As you mentioned, Matthew seems very kind. I’ve detected this in him, too. There is nice, and then there is kind. Niceness, to me, detects personality. But kindness goes deeper-it entail one’s character.

And I recall Matthew mentioning being awkward and experiencing bullying as a kid, and experiencing those things never quite leave you (I’m speaking from personal experience). And I don’t think I’m making this up, but I recall reading something where Matthew spoke very highly of his high school and how it really fueled his talents, creativity and ultimate vocation. I’m so thrilled Matthew went to his high school. I shudder to think what would have happened to Mathew (and his creative potential) if he went to my high school. A teenage Matthew would have been bullied daily. He would have been pushed into lockers, beat up, and called truly detestable names.

But he didn’t, thank goodness. And aren’t we the lucky ones?

Nope, Matthew doesn’t poop gold ingots. He is an ARTISTE!!! He farts rainbows and poops glitter.

Thanks for the final season screentime calculations, McCatry.

The unsubs really have waaay too much screentime. They should be the ones with less than 10min per episode.

So true. CM needs to focus less on the unsubs and their dastardly doings, and focus more on the BAU team and the gifts they bring to the cases. Yes, I know I'm speaking to the converted, but the focus on the unsubs really sticks in my craw.

Bookish Jen · May 20, 2015

TL;DR, but I get your gist. And I know that it exists, but I personally don't know any women that want to 'attack' us. They just want to be considered equal to, not less than.

So much word, Saje. I've considered myself to be a feminist ever since I was five-years-old. I've read a lot of the feminist canon-Friedan, Steinem, Faludi, Wolf, Lerner, Pogrebin, Valenti, Richards, Baumgardner, etc. I went to an all-women's college, and yes, I did take a women's studies course as a part of my studies. True, there are some feminists that are complete extremists. Extremist Andrea Dworkin pretty much thought all men were rapists, which of course, is completely false. And anyone with some decent critical thinking skills can figure this out.

Anyway, my thoughts on feminism can be summed up in this slightly altered article I originally got published in one of my college's publications. I hope nobody minds if I post it here:

Feminism: It's Not a Dirty Word

"Femi-nazi, hairy-legged, man-hating, anti-family..." These are just a few words used to describe feminists. Is it any wonder why women who benefit from the hard work of past feminists do not attach themselves to feminism? Who wants to be called such hateful names? Yet, many women agree with feminist causes and victories.

Why do women get uncomfortable with the word feminism? Do they let stereotypes and name-calling mar a simple word? According to the Webster New College Dictionary, feminism is the "advocacy of increased political activity or rights for women." Rather simple, right? Feminism is not such a scary word after all.

However, feminism can't be summed up in one simple definition. Let us look into feminism further. According to feminist historian, Gerda Lerner, feminism is:

-An idea advocating equals rights to men

-A movement to obtain these rights

-A body of theory women have created

-A belief in the necessity of a huge social change to increase the power of women

Ultimately, feminism is a societal shift in attitudes towards women and what they can do. Not so long ago women were considered the property of their husbands or fathers. They could not get an education beyond the basics or make legal decisions. Less than one hundred years ago, women did not even have the right to vote. Now we have women senators, mayors, and governors. And next year the United States might even elect a female president. Thanks to feminism, women are CEOs and athletic superstars. Women (and men) who are feminists can be found in the boardroom and the kitchen. They work as entrepreneurs, writers, professors and doctors.

Yet, there is work to be done. Women still make less than men for doing the same job. Reproductive rights are on shaky ground. Sexual harassment is still a problem in the work place. And domestic violence affects far too many women. Sadly, some of the most vocal opponents of feminism are other women like Phyllis Schlafly. Hell, good ole Phylli's entire career has been based on the notion "bitches ain't shit."

Anti-feminists can also found all over the Internet. For research, I read a few anti-feminist blogs. Some of these women (yes, I said women) are against women voting, going away to college and working outside the home. They think no women should have leadership positions. And if a woman gets raped it's usually her fault or she is making it up (just ask the odious Janet Bloomfield from the blog Judgy Bitch). The anti-feminists' call to a return to the dark ages makes my stomach churn.

Thanks goodness strong feminists are putting up the good fight against such antiquated ideas. Whereas older feminists looked to Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan for guidance, and marched in the streets for our rights, Generation X and Generation Y are making their voices heard on both the Internet and through alternative magazines. Young feminists are creating a culture that is both strong and feisty, and champions feminist-minded causes. A magazine like Bitch: A Feminist to Pop Culture takes a critical look everything from celebrity philanthropy to the portrayal of working women in film history. And in another favorite magazine of mine, Bust, you'll read articles on everything from alternative crafting to Mormon feminists homemakers (no that is not a typo).

On the Internet, feminist blogs and websites support feminist causes while making readers aware of those who want to take away the rights of women. These blogs and sites are often witty and can be very wise. And my day isn't complete if I don't read some of my favorite feminist-minded websites and blogs.

And I am so grateful to feminists of both sexes who busted ass so women could become full members of society. I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't have accomplished what I have if it wasn't for feminism.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bookish Jen

Saje · May 21, 2015

Speaking of men in the mix, here is Meryl Streep introducing Joss Whedon, someone I greatly respect, at Equality Now's (an organization that he co-created) honoring of 'men on the front lines' of the feminism movement. He talks about how recognizing someone else's power does not diminish your own. A beautiful truth for humans of all ilk.

Droogie · May 21, 2015

Matthew’s life, career, success and good fortune is due to great parentage, economic privilege, an excellent education, golden opportunities, and top notch connections. But a lot of it has to do with his strong work ethic, various talents, ability to connect with the right people and all-around decent nature. As you mentioned, Matthew seems very kind. I’ve detected this in him, too. There is nice, and then there is kind. Niceness, to me, detects personality. But kindness goes deeper-it entail one’s character.

And I recall Matthew mentioning being awkward and experiencing bullying as a kid, and experiencing those things never quite leave you (I’m speaking from personal experience). And I don’t think I’m making this up, but I recall reading something where Matthew spoke very highly of his high school and how it really fueled his talents, creativity and ultimate vocation. I’m so thrilled Matthew went to his high school. I shudder to think what would have happened to Mathew (and his creative potential) if he went to my high school. A teenage Matthew would have been bullied daily. He would have been pushed into lockers, beat up, and called truly detestable names.

But he didn’t, thank goodness. And aren’t we the lucky ones?

Nope, Matthew doesn’t poop gold ingots. He is an ARTISTE!!! He farts rainbows and poops glitter.

I was bullied as well. Not constantly but I could recount several life-altering events (the latest being at my first nursing job, where I consequently became afraid to go to work). It never, ever leaves you. I probably wouldn't change anything if I could turn back time. It taught me an empathy and a compassion for others that might not otherwise have had. I don't say the word "hate" often, but I hate a bully. I acknowledge that a bully is undoubtedly experiencing some pain, somehow, and that's how the person is expressing it for lack of a better way, but that absolutely does not excuse the behavior, not even a little bit. No tolerance from me.

I can buy the pooping of the glitter. But Matthew does not fart.

Bookish Jen · May 21, 2015

Booky, I and Mister will be working. And I think our anniversary is in there somewhere. What about you? Besides cleaning and crafting?

Speaking of men in the mix, here is Meryl Streep introducing Joss Whedon, someone I greatly respect, at Equality Now's (an organization that he co-created) honoring of 'men on the front lines' of the feminism movement. He talks about how recognizing someone else's power does not diminish your own. A beautiful truth for humans of all ilk.

Thanks for sharing this.

Bookish Jen · May 21, 2015

I was bullied as well. Not constantly but I could recount several life-altering events (the latest being at my first nursing job, where I consequently became afraid to go to work). It never, ever leaves you. I probably wouldn't change anything if I could turn back time. It taught me an empathy and a compassion for others that might not otherwise have had. I don't say the word "hate" often, but I hate a bully. I acknowledge that a bully is undoubtedly experiencing some pain, somehow, and that's how the person is expressing it for lack of a better way, but that absolutely does not excuse the behavior, not even a little bit. No tolerance from me.

I can buy the pooping of the glitter. But Matthew does not fart.

So you were bullied on the job, too? It's bad enough when kids bully kids, but when adults bully adults, well.....

I was bullied by a boss early on in my working life; I must have been around twenty and I was working as a co-manager at clothing store. I was brand new and my boss called me various names like stupid, moron, idiot and she even accused me of taking drugs. She did this in front of my co-workers and customers. And I was too chickenshit to stand up for myself. Funny thing is the store went out of business. I wouldn't be surprised if her behavior caused the store to fail.

A few years ago, I was working for a consulting company as a research writer. It seems no matter what I did I couldn't do it right. My writing was brutally criticized for the most minor flaws (and this was aimed at my rough drafts, not my final work). My ideas were never listened to, and a bunch of mean girls would roll their eyes over my brown-bagged lunches and my outfits bought at places like TJ Maxx and various thrift/vintange stores. I felt like I was being gaslighted. I could handle a bunch of "Heathers" rolling their eyes at my black suede handbag bought at Goodwill for five bucks. But to have my talents as a writer constantly insulted truly hit me in gut; they were insulting the talent that made me, well, me. And for a very long time, I thought I would never write again.

Fortunately, I didn't let that final incident ruin me, and I can truly call myself a writer despite what my co-workers at the consulting company told me. Yes, being bullied taught compassion and empathy, though I didn't always tap into those characteristics when I was younger, but better late than never.

Droogie · May 21, 2015

It's understandable (though horrible) when kids do it to each other, but adults? Unreal. I would've totally thought your outfits and thrift store finds were awesome; we could've started our own cool kids table. And I envy those who have the foresight to pack a nice lunch for themselves. I squeal into work with one minute to spare on what I would term an excellent morning. I'd love to have the discipline to pack my own lunch.

I was in my 40s when I became a nurse, well into the time I'm advising my own children how to deal with bullies and their ilk. So when I found myself bullied by someone (and his five sycophants) whom I had considered a good friend -- I was stunned and amazed. Not just at the cold shoulders but by the deliberate traps they set for me; if they had succeeded, patients could have been seriously harmed. I had no idea grown ups could act this way and I began to fear for my safety and my nursing license. When I realized I was locking my work locker with two locks and taping up the vents from the inside, I knew I had to go. I tried everything in my repertoire to fix it, going to my manager as a last resort. His answer to me: "If I get rid of the troublemakers, I'll have no staff. But please, please don't go. I cannot afford to lose you." He could, though, because I handed him the resignation that was in my hand when I went to him. I know what you mean about thinking you'd never write again -- I wanted to quit nursing and horribly regretted my decision to become one. I know now it was the stress talking. I have my dream job now.

My sporadic-but-awful experience with bullies spanned decades, some experiences worse than others. In school, teachers seem to know now a tiny bit better how to nip things like that in the bud, but when I was a little girl, no such luck. I was singled out repeatedly for special things because I was small and bookish (see what I did there?) and teachers liked me. They may as well have painted a target on my back. A couple of times I was cornered and kicked around, which was only slightly worse than the shunning. Then in high school, a little coven decided it didn't suit them that I had a long-term boyfriend who was way cute and they kept trying to trap either of us in compromising situations (and now we have been married 30 years). The effect of all this was cumulative, and I lived, and here I am. All roads lead to here and all that.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Droogie

Russet29 · May 22, 2015

http://deadline.com/2015/05/2014-15-full-tv-season-ratings-shows-rankings-1201431167/

So Nielsen released their end of season rankings and CM is the network's top rated drama in the demo. The article doesn't say but these numbers are clearly live+7 so who knows how seriously the network takes it. Regardless, it's impressive for a show that just finished its tenth season.

missmycat · May 22, 2015

http://deadline.com/2015/05/2014-15-full-tv-season-ratings-shows-rankings-1201431167/

So Nielsen released their end of season rankings and CM is the network's top rated drama in the demo. The article doesn't say but these numbers are clearly live+7 so who knows how seriously the network takes it. Regardless, it's impressive for a show that just finished its tenth season.

I would think that they do take it seriously. Because CBS just recently called CM their highest rated 18-49 drama.Which begs the question why(at least as far as we know) has the network not asked for budget cuts for some of their low rated dramas as well.I have seen some comments from fans who were absolutely livid about it. They are convinced it is because of this spin off and I am not so sure they are wrong about. Or maybe the timing is just coincidental.

Droogie · May 22, 2015

I'll be interested to see how these budget-cuts manifest themselves.

Bookish Jen · May 22, 2015

It's understandable (though horrible) when kids do it to each other, but adults? Unreal. I would've totally thought your outfits and thrift store finds were awesome; we could've started our own cool kids table. And I envy those who have the foresight to pack a nice lunch for themselves. I squeal into work with one minute to spare on what I would term an excellent morning. I'd love to have the discipline to pack my own lunch.

I was in my 40s when I became a nurse, well into the time I'm advising my own children how to deal with bullies and their ilk. So when I found myself bullied by someone (and his five sycophants) whom I had considered a good friend -- I was stunned and amazed. Not just at the cold shoulders but by the deliberate traps they set for me; if they had succeeded, patients could have been seriously harmed. I had no idea grown ups could act this way and I began to fear for my safety and my nursing license. When I realized I was locking my work locker with two locks and taping up the vents from the inside, I knew I had to go. I tried everything in my repertoire to fix it, going to my manager as a last resort. His answer to me: "If I get rid of the troublemakers, I'll have no staff. But please, please don't go. I cannot afford to lose you." He could, though, because I handed him the resignation that was in my hand when I went to him. I know what you mean about thinking you'd never write again -- I wanted to quit nursing and horribly regretted my decision to become one. I know now it was the stress talking. I have my dream job now.

My sporadic-but-awful experience with bullies spanned decades, some experiences worse than others. In school, teachers seem to know now a tiny bit better how to nip things like that in the bud, but when I was a little girl, no such luck. I was singled out repeatedly for special things because I was small and bookish (see what I did there?) and teachers liked me. They may as well have painted a target on my back. A couple of times I was cornered and kicked around, which was only slightly worse than the shunning. Then in high school, a little coven decided it didn't suit them that I had a long-term boyfriend who was way cute and they kept trying to trap either of us in compromising situations (and now we have been married 30 years). The effect of all this was cumulative, and I lived, and here I am. All roads lead to here and all that.

Goodness, your story sounds horrific. What makes people think they can bully others, especially in the professional realm? Is this how grown ups are supposed to conduct themselves?

As for the bullying you dealt with as a child, so I wasn't the only one who was bullied for being small and bookish. I was also a bit quirky, and sometimes I think it's much harder for a girl to be quirky, and by quirky, I mean truly quirky, I don't mean in the vacuous manic pixie girl way that for some reason guys always fall for, than it is for a guy. Sure, I was quirky, but I was also thinking about very serious issues from a pretty young age, which didn't exactly make me popular. Yet, in my senior year of high school my quirkiness and gravitas drew the attention of a very popular boy. We never dated, though he did once kiss me in one of our classes. I moved soon after graduation and this boy called me just before I moved and he commended me for being so different than the other girls. I thought that was very nice, and I never forgot that one act of kindness. It still means a lot to me.

Yet, years later, I find going from being a quirky, sometimes too serious girl to a quirky, sometimes too serious woman, can be hugely exhausting.

But much love to you and your honey for 30 years of marriage. That is wonderful.

normasm · May 22, 2015

It's understandable (though horrible) when kids do it to each other, but adults? Unreal. I would've totally thought your outfits and thrift store finds were awesome; we could've started our own cool kids table. And I envy those who have the foresight to pack a nice lunch for themselves. I squeal into work with one minute to spare on what I would term an excellent morning. I'd love to have the discipline to pack my own lunch.

I was in my 40s when I became a nurse, well into the time I'm advising my own children how to deal with bullies and their ilk. So when I found myself bullied by someone (and his five sycophants) whom I had considered a good friend -- I was stunned and amazed. Not just at the cold shoulders but by the deliberate traps they set for me; if they had succeeded, patients could have been seriously harmed. I had no idea grown ups could act this way and I began to fear for my safety and my nursing license. When I realized I was locking my work locker with two locks and taping up the vents from the inside, I knew I had to go. I tried everything in my repertoire to fix it, going to my manager as a last resort. His answer to me: "If I get rid of the troublemakers, I'll have no staff. But please, please don't go. I cannot afford to lose you." He could, though, because I handed him the resignation that was in my hand when I went to him. I know what you mean about thinking you'd never write again -- I wanted to quit nursing and horribly regretted my decision to become one. I know now it was the stress talking. I have my dream job now.

My sporadic-but-awful experience with bullies spanned decades, some experiences worse than others. In school, teachers seem to know now a tiny bit better how to nip things like that in the bud, but when I was a little girl, no such luck. I was singled out repeatedly for special things because I was small and bookish (see what I did there?) and teachers liked me. They may as well have painted a target on my back. A couple of times I was cornered and kicked around, which was only slightly worse than the shunning. Then in high school, a little coven decided it didn't suit them that I had a long-term boyfriend who was way cute and they kept trying to trap either of us in compromising situations (and now we have been married 30 years). The effect of all this was cumulative, and I lived, and here I am. All roads lead to here and all that.

Droogs, that sounds nightmarish. Or not even "ish." I'm glad your roads lead you "here."

Droogie · May 23, 2015

Droogs, that sounds nightmarish. Or not even "ish." I'm glad your roads lead you "here."

I heart you, Norm.

The stuff from when I was a kid is just water under the bridge by now. Threads in the tapestry, y'know? I'll use more metaphors if they occur to me. :-)

The incidents with my colleagues, though, took awhile to get past. There is so much more to it than I've written. I felt like I was in The Twilight Zone, for real. Stopping my husband from pretty much going all Godfather on people kept me grounded. However, it is great fodder for my upcoming graduate thesis. Lemonade from lemons.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Droogie

normasm · May 23, 2015

Heart you back. And I love being called Norm, for some damn reason! I have blocked out entire 5 year periods in my work life because I was told the way my male bosses treated me was typical, and, yeah, just deal. Oh, well, in a way, it's true. For anyone who doesn't come into whatever world with a waterproof advantage, there is the possibility of being bullied so that the advantaged one can succeed. (Did you ever hear that Graham Parker song, Suck-cess? Please look it up if not). Why can't we humans be happy for each other's success and help them as they help us? Gah...

Droogie · May 23, 2015

You call me Droogs, I call you Norm -- works for me. ;-)

Loooove Graham Parker.

I dunno what spurs on abominable behavior. People just are just dead inside and they want everyone to feel the same way, I think. Doesn't help when you're on the receiving end, though.

Cobalt Stargazer · May 23, 2015

You call me Droogs, I call you Norm -- works for me. ;-)

Um. Or LOL, take your pick.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=droog

Droogie · May 23, 2015

I like it!

I picked my screen name when I joined this forum, never thinking I would post, and I was for some reason unable to come up with anything else -- I am a huge Megadeth fan, and Droogie is what Dave Mustaine calls his fans, since he loves A Clockwork Orange (I don't, incidentally.).

amensisterfriend · July 1, 2015

Anyone up for trying to name their all-time favorite 15 or so episodes from S1-S4, generally regarded as the show's golden years?!

And how about your 5-10 favorite post-S4 episodes?

Old Dog · July 1, 2015

These are mine - in no particular order.

Season 1-4

Compulsion

LDSK

The Last Word

The Big Game/Revelations

Seven Seconds

Lucky

Elephants Memory

Tabula Rasa

Lo Fi/Mayhem

Minimal Loss

The Instincts/Memoriam

A Shade of Gray

Amplification

Season 5-10

The Uncanny Valley

Mosley Lane

With Friends Like These

True Genius

Alchemy

The Caller

A Thousand Suns

Nelsons Sparrow

Rock Creek Park

Mr Scratch

I would add in 100 but I just cannot watch that - the angst just kills me despite the plot holes!

ForeverAlone · July 1, 2015

S1-S4 favorites (in no particular order)

1. The Fisher King part 1/2

2. Extreme Aggressor

3. LDSK

4. Minimal Loss

5. Sex, Birth, Death

6. Lucky

7. Seven Seconds

8. Cold Comfort

9. No Way Out

10. Aftermath

11. Limelight

12. The Angel Maker

13. Penelope

14. Birthright

15. Plain Sight

Post S4 favorites (again in no order)

1. True Genius

2. The Uncanny Valley

3. Unknown Subject

4. Mr. Scratch

5. Painless

6. Heathridge Manor

7. The Company

8. Edge of Winter

9. The Lesson

10. Haunted

amensisterfriend · July 1, 2015

I love pretty much every episode you guys mentioned and feel yet another marathon rewatch coming on.

Compulsion

I always love seeing this one pop up on lists---it was my first CM episode and still a sentimental favorite!

In chronological order (because ranking them in order of preference would make this an even more impossible exercise than it already is!)

S1-S4:

Compulsion

Won't Get Fooled Again

Broken Mirror

Derailed

Blood Hungry (a really interesting and underrated episode IMO!)

Fisher King Part 2

Aftermath

Sex, Birth and Death

No Way Out

Birthright (another underrated, thought-provoking gem IMO!)

Instincts

Masterpiece

Zoe's Reprise

Conflicted

A Shade of Grey

Random conclusions:

1) I could have very, very easily named at least 30 favorites from these first four seasons!

2) I like S2 and S3 a lot, but I really, really love S1 and S4...though, to be fair, I already kind of knew that :)

3) I am way too fond of episodes in which Elle and Reid have a memorable interaction!

10 Post -S4 Favorites (also in chronological order):

1. Uncanny Valley

2. Devil's Night

3. Dorado Falls

4. True Genius

5. Unknown Subject

6. Profiling 101

7. Edge of Winter

8. Nelson's Sparrow

9. Mr Scratch

Random conclusions:

1) I would honestly rather rewatch at least 95% of S1-S4 than at least 95% of S5-S10

2) S7 is still my favorite post-S4 season

3) I should probably enjoy S5 a lot more than I do, but I just really don't care for it much at all

Old Dog · July 1, 2015

Random conclusions:

1) I would honestly rather rewatch at least 95% of S1-S4 than at least 95% of S5-S10

2) S7 is still my favorite post-S4 season

3) I should probably enjoy S5 a lot more than I do, but I just really don't care for it much at all

I agree with 1) - I can watch and rewatch most Season 1-4 episodes endlessly.

2) I'm surprised you rate Season 7 so highly. Reflecting on Seasons 5-10 I was surprised to find I actually rate Season 10 on top. We had at least 6 really good episodes and one stellar one. Season 7 for me was blighted by the dire finale.

3) I do like most of Season 5 even though that was where we saw the start of the drop in quality but it is still head and shoulders above Seasons 6-9 for me..

ForeverAlone · July 1, 2015

I agree. For me, season 7 is easily my favorite post S4 season (as witnessed by my favorites list).

amensisterfriend · July 3, 2015

Here's another one: Which are your five or so favorite intra-team friendships? You can pick based on potential rather than actuality if you choose :)

A few of mine, in no special order:

1) Gideon/Reid

2) Elle/Reid

3) Early Hotch/Reid (I barely recognize them now!)

4) Potential for Rossi/Gideon

5) Hmmm....maybe Rossi/Reid? Alex/Reid? Alex/Rossi?!

I pretty much never praise JJ, but I will say that I often find myself liking the JJ/Hotch dynamic. They just seem to naturally 'get' each other, for lack of a better way of putting it. I can even get people 'shipping them---far more than I ever saw JJ/Reid as a potentially romantic dynamic, in fact, though that's obviously an unpopular opinion :)

And it's funny that I don't have Emily mentioned above, as I do really like her character and the way she fit into the team---I guess maybe I just didn't think her relationships with the other characters were all that distinctive and well defined? I do always love her interactions with Rossi. Honestly, even when his development has been a disappointment, I tend to really like nearly everyone around Rossi!

Edited July 3, 2015 by amensisterfriend

Old Dog · July 3, 2015

I never really liked Gideon/Reid - there was always something bit creepy about it and Gideon always carried this air of superior arrogance with everyone but especially Reid..

I liked Elle/Reid, early Hotch/Reid, Alex/Reid and Rossi/Reid - a bit of a pattern emerging here! I also felt Emily and Reid had a good friendship.

I can see why you say JJ and Hotch get each other but I can only think of possibly 2 occasions where that showed - and the thought of them as a ship makes me shudder! Reid/Morgan could have been really great but it has been done so erratically and in later years it has almost disappeared except when they dredge it up clumsily to please the teenies as in Rabid.

I actually would like to see a bit more tension within the team which would be more realistic than all this cuddly, Disney "family" vibe they persist with - I would like to see Rossi's prickly side coming out with Morgan or JJ and perhaps a Hotch/Morgan spat or two.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Old Dog

amensisterfriend · July 3, 2015

I can see why you say JJ and Hotch get each other but I can only think of possibly 2 occasions where that showed - and the thought of them as a ship makes me shudder!

Shudder away! We all have our own fleeting 'crack ships', unpopular opinions, etc....I was just tossing that out there. I do think JJ has connected with Hotch a lot more than twice, but I'm too lazy to list specific examples. And I'm not interested enough in JJ to expend the effort :)

Reid/Morgan could have been really great but it has been done so erratically and in later years it has almost disappeared

They've had some good scenes, but overall I never liked this one quite as much as most do. Part of it is that Morgan has always irked me in general, and his interactions with Reid tend to bring out the patronizing, I-know-what's-best-for-everyone-else-and-will-act-accordingly-but-don't-dare-try-to-advise-ME aspects of the character that I dislike.

I actually would like to see a bit more tension within the team which would be more realistic than all this cuddly, Disney "family" vibe they persist with

That's the one thing we agree on completely---well, that and liking Reid :) As ranted about elsewhere, I think the way they all have more or less equal, blandly harmonious, totally indistinct relationships with one another is incredibly dull, not to mention unrealistic. And as much as we like to blame later seasons for most of the show's woes, I actually think this was a problem that began several seasons ago during the Emily years. If they had more clearly defined differences in personality, perspectives, professional and personal strengths, etc., then some team members would naturally connect more while others would have a certain amount of conflict or at least healthy differences, but, alas...!

Edited July 3, 2015 by amensisterfriend

Old Dog · July 3, 2015

. And I'm not interested enough in JJ to expend the effort :)

I'm in full agreement with this!

amensisterfriend · July 3, 2015

What would you guys say are some of your 'bests' of S5? Best episodes, scenes, moments for any and all characters, hairstyles, etc.?! I'm about to rewatch that season for the first time in ages and would love to keep your thoughts in mind!

Old Dog · July 3, 2015

Oh goodness - Reid's hair in The Slave of Duty. That image of him at Haley's funeral with eyes filled with tears remains with me.

And badass Reid in The Uncanny Valley. And I always, always cry at the end of Mosley Lane - "He was alive yesterday?".

Edited July 3, 2015 by Old Dog

amensisterfriend · July 3, 2015

Great ones, Old Dog!

The Uncanny Valley

Say what you will about S5 not being up to par with the first four seasons---and I've said plenty, though I'm hoping to love it more this time around---but Uncanny Valley will always rank among the series' best episodes for me. Granted, I probably say that about way too many episodes :)

Edited July 3, 2015 by amensisterfriend

Old Dog · July 3, 2015

I like Reid in Risky Business as well and I love the scene in Reckoner where he is caught out about being fit to fly. Oh and I love the scene on the jet in Rite of Passage where Reid comments that he's not qualified to use an assault rifle and Hotch and Morgan chime in chorus "You're not!".

Yes there is a lot to like in Season 5.

amensisterfriend · July 3, 2015

Reid comments that he's not qualified to use an assault rifle and Hotch and Morgan chime in chorus "You're not!".

It's funny, because even though I think of S5 as grim due to the Reaper/Haley's death stuff, there's actually a fair amount of humor...by this show's understandably subdued standards, that is! And the intra-team warmth doesn't feel nearly as forced as it does in later seasons. I'm actually liking it this time around...and I have to make the very profound observation that S5 may give us my favorite hair for both Emily and JJ ;)

smoker · July 4, 2015

2) Elle/Reid

3) Early Hotch/Reid (I barely recognize them now!)

I pretty much never praise JJ, but I will say that I often find myself liking the JJ/Hotch dynamic. They just seem to naturally 'get' each other, for lack of a better way of putting it. I can even get people 'shipping them---far more than I ever saw JJ/Reid as a potentially romantic dynamic

I love Hotch and Elle too, there is not much of them but I like a lot their scenes.

I do agree with that about Hotch and JJ, they got a few scenes where their natural understanding at work is showed with great effectiveness, I mean, I remember their working relationship (first half of the show) as one of great sync, rewatching it, it almost fells cheap there are only a few scenes showing this (great scenes by the way)

Something like that is happening with the previus season 6 JJ, it's like I was poisoning my memories of her, keeping only the ones where she was truly empathetic and nice. I started to pay attention thanks to all your comments, as I've said I am rewatching and I have to say I am stunned.

I never really liked Gideon/Reid - there was always something bit creepy about it and Gideon always carried this air of superior arrogance with everyone but especially Reid..

I liked Elle/Reid, early Hotch/Reid

I can see why you say JJ and Hotch get each other but I can only think of possibly 2 occasions where that showed - and the thought of them as a ship makes me shudder!

I actually would like to see a bit more tension within the team which would be more realistic than all this cuddly, Disney "family" vibe they persist with - I would like to see Rossi's prickly side coming out with Morgan or JJ and perhaps a Hotch/Morgan spat or two.

I think Gideon was a particular and intense character, I liked him as an individual, but his interaction with the team and others was pretty connected to his emotional state, so he could be a great guy or a jerk in a matter of seconds.

I've never liked Hotch paired with members of the team, I just don't see it, however, and this is an opinion based purely in physical chemistry, I think TG has more chemistry with blondes (but the British one, I didn't like her, she was weird), I'm counting main characters and some guest stars like other female unit chiefs.

Amen to the Disney family argument!!! and the plot about the lost daughter made me puke a little in my mouth. Actually, I was enjoying the episode while she was the crazy grupie, but the "I'm your daughter"... that's not only soapy, that's the most archaid thing they delivered after the messy jukie brother.

I would love some struggle between Hotch and Morgan, they are more a bunch of friends than a working team now (I mean, in their work place), leadership has been off of the BAU from season 6-7, and JJ and Morgan do as they please, so anything would make me happier than a good heated lecture from the old chief Hotchner to put them in their places... What? a girl is allowed to dream, isn't it? xP

Edited July 4, 2015 by smoker

amensisterfriend · July 4, 2015

I do agree with that about Hotch and JJ, they got a few scenes where their natural understanding at work is showed with great effectiveness, I mean, I remember their working relationship (first half of the show) as one of great sync, rewatching it, it almost fells cheap there are only a few scenes showing this (great scenes by the way)

Exactly! It will never cease to amaze me that the characters get more allegedly 'personal' scenes in later seasons and the 'we are FAMILY!' dynamic is pounded home harder than ever, and yet the vast majority of the best moments---the ones that felt natural, poignant, genuinely revealing, etc.---came back when the series knew that 'less was more.'

That said, maybe it's just my pro-CM mood, my relatively low expectations or the contrast between the fifth season and much of what we now know comes afterwards, but I am loving S5 this time around! Uncanny Valley and Mosely Lane are two of the series' very best, the balance between light and darkness is far more effective than I'd recalled, there are actually some sneakily good insights into the characters, and, as previously noted, I'm loving the female characters' hair this season. Naturally, that last observation is the one that carries the most weight ;)

Edited July 4, 2015 by amensisterfriend

spinner33 · July 7, 2015

Long rant - sorry!

Because I can't no longer stomach what CM has been turned into (the Vomit-Inducing Adventures of Princess Mary Sue Shinyhair), I've been dipping my toes in other fandoms to see if there's anything else out there.

Lo and behold! I discovered that Hawaii 5-0 went through the very same problem that CM is experiencing! First season was hunky dory. But second season saw the introduction of a white female character who was the Blonde Bad-Ass Babe Who Can Do No Wrong. This character was universally-hated by the fans, except for the executive producer who had his head up her butt, and the delusional folks who insist that if you hate a poorly-written uber-perfect one-dimensional female character, then you are a sexist pig.

Said character was all of 25, but had worked with Homeland Security and the CIA, and was hand-picked by the governor to join the team because she was just that amazing. She was perfect at everything she did, got along immediately with everyone on the team, and knew more about everything than everybody else on the show. They simply could not function without her, to the point that the cast was looking towards this person instead of the team leader to make decisions about what the team would do. The two main male characters competed with each other to garner her attention and adoration. She began to eat up more and more screen-time episode after episode, to the point that the camera was focused directly on her, front and center, if she was in a scene. Half of the four-member cast virtually disappeared so that Little Miss Perfect could be front and center all the time, which is a bleeping injustice when your show is set in Hawaii, and it's the two native Hawaiians who are pushed aside for the white blonde from the Mainland.

Well, long story short, Blondie was gone before the end of the season. Not sure if it was a decision made by the suits, or if the fan petitions to kick her ass off actually worked. But it was not before she spent her last episode being the toughest, baddest, boldest, most-awesomest agent evah, to the point that she sacrificed herself to save the bacon of the Special Forces Navy Seal main hero, whom of course she confesses to having had a super secret crush on the whole time she worked with them. She quit the team to save them. Oh how amazing of her!

I couldn't help but notice the similarities between this character and JJ, including the preposterous send-off that JJ got in when they fired her the first time. Thought you all would be amused to know. Is it de rigeur that all shows must have the badass blonde babe, and an executive producer who thinks the sun rises and falls off her backside?

SSAHotchner · July 8, 2015

Long rant - sorry!

Because I can't no longer stomach what CM has been turned into (the Vomit-Inducing Adventures of Princess Mary Sue Shinyhair), I've been dipping my toes in other fandoms to see if there's anything else out there.

Lo and behold! I discovered that Hawaii 5-0 went through the very same problem that CM is experiencing! First season was hunky dory. But second season saw the introduction of a white female character who was the Blonde Bad-Ass Babe Who Can Do No Wrong. This character was universally-hated by the fans, except for the executive producer who had his head up her butt, and the delusional folks who insist that if you hate a poorly-written uber-perfect one-dimensional female character, then you are a sexist pig.

Said character was all of 25, but had worked with Homeland Security and the CIA, and was hand-picked by the governor to join the team because she was just that amazing. She was perfect at everything she did, got along immediately with everyone on the team, and knew more about everything than everybody else on the show. They simply could not function without her, to the point that the cast was looking towards this person instead of the team leader to make decisions about what the team would do. The two main male characters competed with each other to garner her attention and adoration. She began to eat up more and more screen-time episode after episode, to the point that the camera was focused directly on her, front and center, if she was in a scene. Half of the four-member cast virtually disappeared so that Little Miss Perfect could be front and center all the time, which is a bleeping injustice when your show is set in Hawaii, and it's the two native Hawaiians who are pushed aside for the white blonde from the Mainland.

Well, long story short, Blondie was gone before the end of the season. Not sure if it was a decision made by the suits, or if the fan petitions to kick her ass off actually worked. But it was not before she spent her last episode being the toughest, baddest, boldest, most-awesomest agent evah, to the point that she sacrificed herself to save the bacon of the Special Forces Navy Seal main hero, whom of course she confesses to having had a super secret crush on the whole time she worked with them. She quit the team to save them. Oh how amazing of her!

I couldn't help but notice the similarities between this character and JJ, including the preposterous send-off that JJ got in when they fired her the first time. Thought you all would be amused to know. Is it de rigeur that all shows must have the badass blonde babe, and an executive producer who thinks the sun rises and falls off her backside?

Thanks for sharing this. While I'm old enough that I watched all of the original Hawaii Five-O, I have not seen any of this new version. The problem with the CM staff and JJ is that they assumed that when there was an outcry over the firing of AJ that everyone would want her back in any capacity. I'm sure even AJ herself didn't realize that it was because many viewers liked her original character. She wanted something more dramatic to do, and I can understand that. I would have accepted her being a profiler, although I prefer her role as media liaison, had they made the transition more gradually. I maybe could have grown to accept her kick-ass persona if it hadn't been for A) her being everywhere in almost every episode while other team members get bupkis to do, and B) the horrible, implausible writing of episodes like 200 and The Forever People. It's just too much. When I watch the old episodes, I'm stunned by the realization of how much I liked her. AJ is beautiful and has the most gorgeous eyes. I'll give her that. I'm sure she's a really nice person. But this new JJ character grates on me like fingers on a chalkboard (yes, I'm old and remember chalkboards) and AJ is not deserving of more screen time than the others. An occasional episode here and there, okay, but not week after week after week.

This recent Criminal Minds FB post ticked me off to no end and I didn't even read it. Just the heading had me screaming, "Stop it!"

http://www.cbs.com/shows/criminal_minds/insider_blog/1003453/14-reasons-why-j-j-is-the-greatest-woman-on-tv-a-role-model-for-ladies-everywhere/

Danielg342 · July 8, 2015

I think there's a number of things at play when it comes to Lori Weston, the blonde character on Hawaii 5-0. I'll take the fans at their word since I don't watch that show, but it does seem to be a bit of a trend when it comes to female characters- and other minority characters- who get "elevated" from support status.

First, I would point out that many of Hollywood's writers are at least in their 40s, and thus they're at least 20 years past when their interests and attitudes fully formed. 20 years ago, in the '90s, was pretty much when Hollywood started to think about diversity in its programming beyond giving it a token acceptance (Seinfeld, for example, wasn't commissioned until a female friend- who turned into Elaine- was added to the cast), but even then, consideration wasn't always thought out or thorough. So we still have a generation of writers who, when creating a show, think "male first" with their thought processes, if only because subconsciously they know no other way of doing things, plus the majority of "well written characters"- the ones writers are inspired by- were male as well.

The '90s was still a period where fare that didn't appeal to the "white male" was, for the lack of better words, "ghettoized"- if you had a show with a black lead or a female lead, executives would think it fits on its own "niche" network (like BET) or would only gain a "niche" audience, so if you wanted an "everyman" show, the lead had to be a white male. Attitudes about this are slowly changing, but writers have been slow to adapt, in large part because their own attitudes are a bit behind.

I think the other part- and this might be strange, considering the first point- is society's craving for more diversity within its culture. It's what I call the "social justice warrior" phenomenon, the main driving force behind the quest for greater diversity. Since Hollywood had, for years, perpetuated many stereotypes about minorities- the "black gangsta", the fiery Latina, the lazy Mexican, the miserly Jew, etc.- minority characters tend to get much more heavily scrutinized than white male characters do, mostly because of their identity (ironic that). To me, the motive behind it is rational- many of those stereotypes are damaging, and they have been overused to the point where they're essentially cliches. I just think sometimes, as it often does with SJWs, it goes too far, with some complaining about the slightest of flaws just because they don't want a minority character to be "weak", without understanding a flawless character is already a weak one.

As a result of this, a lot of Hollywood writers I believe are afraid to write in any lead character who isn't a white male, and they refuse to populate their shows with people who are not males, simply because writers don't want to be bothered worried about what some special interest group thinks and would rather have the audience focus on the stories and characters.

Think about it for a second.

With a female character, you're almost always going to be guaranteed to get the following questions right off the bat:

-Does the writer sexualize her?

-Does she care about having a family or places her family interests first?

-Is her conflict between family versus her career?

-Does she like pink and have any other "girly" interests?

-Is she typically the "emotional" centre of the team, the only one who displays any warmth or empathy?

-Does she need to get rescued at some point during the story?

-How pre-occupied is she with men? Does she have any other desires?

-Is a big part of her story about "what it's like to be a woman in the field"?

-Does she actually contribute to solving the story's important conflicts at hand, or does she merely go along with what the male characters say?

-Does she only fight women? Are other women the only ones allowed to inflict any pain on her?

-Does she owe her presence on the team to being the wife/girlfriend/sister of a male team member?

...and so on. There are many other questions that get asked of a female character almost routinely that will almost never be asked of a male character, and I think that's far more damaging to diversity on screen than Hollywood attitudes. Hollywood attitudes still need to change- we don't have enough Joss Whedons who will write female characters who are actually characters instead of token caricatures- but I also think we as a society have to stop asking 21 questions about a minority character when they pop up. There was an excellent article I read about a black man who said he identified more with white heroes than the black ones Hollywood "gave" him because the white ones were far more compelling, and he basically argued that creators should be creators and given the freedom to create what they want instead of having to cater to the whims of special interest groups who may never be satisfied anyway.

Truth is, we're not going to defeat stereotypes if all we get are bland, token characters, ones that pay lip service to diversity but drive audiences nuts (like Weston and JJ). The only way we'll ever defeat stereotypes is we create strong characters, people audiences can relate to and find compelling. We shouldn't also be afraid of stereotypes- if used well, they can be compelling drama (I point to this as an example that stereotypical stories- like the "damsel in distress"- can be done well). Yes, we should encourage writers to "think outside the box" and, say, make their "hard-nosed, maverick and snarky cop" a woman, because there's no reason the role should be only male. However, at the same time, we should let these characters arrive organically with the proper care and attention paid to them- because if we want more memorable minority characters, we need to make sure we've got them first.

Cobalt Stargazer · July 8, 2015

There are many other questions that get asked of a female character almost routinely that will almost never be asked of a male character, and I think that's far more damaging to diversity on screen than Hollywood attitudes. Hollywood attitudes still need to change- we don't have enough Joss Whedons who will write female characters who are actually characters instead of token caricatures- but I also think we as a society have to stop asking 21 questions about a minority character when they pop up. There was an excellent article I read about a black man who said he identified more with white heroes than the black ones Hollywood "gave" him because the white ones were far more compelling, and he basically argued that creators should be creators and given the freedom to create what they want instead of having to cater to the whims of special interest groups who may never be satisfied anyway.

Truth is, we're not going to defeat stereotypes if all we get are bland, token characters, ones that pay lip service to diversity but drive audiences nuts (like Weston and JJ). The only way we'll ever defeat stereotypes is we create strong characters, people audiences can relate to and find compelling. We shouldn't also be afraid of stereotypes- if used well, they can be compelling drama (I point to this as an example that stereotypical stories- like the "damsel in distress"- can be done well). Yes, we should encourage writers to "think outside the box" and, say, make their "hard-nosed, maverick and snarky cop" a woman, because there's no reason the role should be only male. However, at the same time, we should let these characters arrive organically with the proper care and attention paid to them- because if we want more memorable minority characters, we need to make sure we've got them first.

Well, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call Joss Whedon the enlightened soul some people see him as. Fair enough to say that Marti Noxon was the showrunner when Buffy Summers fell into bed with an unrepentant serial murderer who was physically violent with her because he could get away with it, then tried to rape her into loving him once she decided she was really through with their "relationship", but Joss was back in charge for the final season when Buffy shut out everyone except said unrepentant serial murderer and attempted (which.....please, like that was the first time he'd ever done that) rapist. I will never cease to feel bitter amusement at the fact that of all the mistakes Buffy makes over the course of a seven year series, the one thing she tries to correct is that she was "mean" to a piece of shit like Spike.

Ahem.

Is it really Hollywood's attitudes that need to change? Maybe, but are they the only people who are asking the questions you mentioned? Because I don't see how that would even be possible, since its the viewers that are the reason any show has an audience, and they're the ones who either love or hate whatever character. I do think Spinner has a point about if you don't like a female character or a black character or some other minority, you're seen as a sexist/racist/misogynist, but that's a touch simplistic IMO. If not liking JJ means you hate women or whatever, then don't you hate women if you don't like Elle or Emily or Alex as well? Why should JJ be the only one who gets the special status of "You're sexist!"?

spinner33 · July 8, 2015

I'm becoming a cynic. This isn't a deep-think situation. The producers aren't trying to give fans what they think we want, although when forced to explain themselves I'm sure that's what they all say! These producers are playing out their own fantasies, because they're the boss and they're in charge. I think in Messer's case, she wants to be JJ (but uber-perfect JJ with no flaws), and in the case of the H-5-0 producer, he wants to have sex with the actress who plays Lori. There was a fan on one of the H-5-0 boards who joked the producer has unresolved high school issues concerning cheerleaders or prom queens, I can't remember which. But there's a feel of truth to that! Messer is using JJ as a live Barbie doll for her juvenile fantasies. The other producer is using Lori as a dress-up doll for his unrequited sexual fantasies.

As for the thing about sexism, i.e. "if you don't like Perfect Female Character you're a sexist" that's just a cop-out. Those fans who adore or want to be like Perfect Female Character are simply saying the worst thing they can think of to discredit other fans who don't like her. "You don't like Dr. Perfect? Well, you're just jealous she's blonde and pretty and gets all the guys." "You don't like the actress who plays Agent Awesome? Well, you're just jealous because she's a superstar and you're a nobody." Suuuuuuure. It has nothing to do with her taking over the show, being a talentless hack, and having a job by virtue of her face instead of her acting chops. Or that she's portraying a character so unrealistic with lines so impossible that it hurts to watch the actors around her struggle through their lines with a straight face?

Edited July 8, 2015 by spinner33

Danielg342 · July 8, 2015

Is it really Hollywood's attitudes that need to change? Maybe, but are they the only people who are asking the questions you mentioned? Because I don't see how that would even be possible, since its the viewers that are the reason any show has an audience, and they're the ones who either love or hate whatever character. I do think Spinner has a point about if you don't like a female character or a black character or some other minority, you're seen as a sexist/racist/misogynist, but that's a touch simplistic IMO. If not liking JJ means you hate women or whatever, then don't you hate women if you don't like Elle or Emily or Alex as well? Why should JJ be the only one who gets the special status of "You're sexist!"?

I don't think Hollywood executives ask those questions- that's more of the domain of the numerous bloggers out there who think because they have a web page they're “enlightened”- but I do believe they're aware of them. Stuff like the Bechdel Test have been around for decades, and the recent “uproar” over the characterization of Natasha in Avengers: Age of Ultron indicates that special interest groups still hold some sway in the conversations about culture, and, no matter how irrational an executive may think it is, they have to be aware of it.

At the end of the day, Hollywood is a business, and an important part of that business is image. Certain things can sell despite the controversy or because they court it (like Eminem does), while other things need to avoid assaults to the image Hollywood wants to project. If a “wholesome family comedy” comes out and a prominent blogger writes that the film is sexist because the lead female character is “just a collection of stereotypes”, it may not matter that only one person really holds that opinion- it will have an effect. Since we're a society that's never been taught critical thinking, it doesn't take much for one person's thoughts to mushroom into millions of people who agree, and that will cut into the film's bottom line.

That's why I think there are a lot of Hollywood executives who “scrub clean” certain characters, not because they agree with what special interest groups say but because they simply want to avoid their wrath. Thus we wind up with “sanitary” but bland characters, simply because in an executive's mind, they can't market a product if it draws the wrong kind of attention.

Sure, it stands to reason that Hollywood should just release its movies and let us, the audience, decide what movies would succeed, but businesses can't operate like that. They have to make sure their products can be given every reasonable chance to be successful, so they have to make sure their movies will be warmly received by the target audience. Yeah, we can tell them until we're blue in the face that we want good characters, but the experienced marketer knows that even the potential for a character to be misconstrued and poorly received could derail the entire project. It's just not worth it to the executive if their movie becomes a critical darling but a commercial flop, only because some scriptwriter didn't realize they wrote their black character like a gangster.

Don't get me wrong- I'm not saying I agree with this. I just think this happens in Hollywood boardrooms and is at play when things like JJ's characterization appears. It just underlines how important it is for us to get our voices out and remind Hollywood that they have other sources of fan reaction other than Jezebel and Antia Sarkeesian. I like to think that the tide is turning and that, as society as a whole better understands the Internet, we'll get less pandering and we'll get better thought put into products. We just have to make sure we become part of the conversation first.

Danielg342 · July 8, 2015

I'm becoming a cynic. This isn't a deep-think situation. The producers aren't trying to give fans what they think we want, although when forced to explain themselves I'm sure that's what they all say! These producers are playing out their own fantasies, because they're the boss and they're in charge. I think in Messer's case, she wants to be JJ (but uber-perfect JJ with no flaws), and in the case of the H-5-0 producer, he wants to have sex with the actress who plays Lori. There was a fan on one of the H-5-0 boards who joked the producer has unresolved high school issues concerning cheerleaders or prom queens, I can't remember which. But there's a feel of truth to that! Messer is using JJ as a live Barbie doll for her juvenile fantasies. The other producer is using Lori as a dress-up doll for his unrequited sexual fantasies.

As for the thing about sexism, i.e. "if you don't like Perfect Female Character you're a sexist" that's just a cop-out. Those fans who adore or want to be like Perfect Female Character are simply saying the worst thing they can think of to discredit other fans who don't like her. "You don't like Dr. Perfect? Well, you're just jealous she's blonde and pretty and gets all the guys." "You don't like the actress who plays Agent Awesome? Well, you're just jealous because she's a superstar and you're a nobody." Suuuuuuure. It has nothing to do with her taking over the show, being a talentless hack, and having a job by virtue of her face instead of her acting chops. Or that she's portraying a character so unrealistic with lines so impossible that it hurts to watch the actors around her struggle through their lines with a straight face?

I agree, it's sad, and ultimately counterproductive. The arguments sound no different than the people who yell “check your priviledge” at me assuming that because I'm a white man I can't possibly have something valuable to say on a particular topic.

I never understand the thought process- it's like arguing with a wall. Don't they understand that, eventually, no one really listens to the wall?

SSAHotchner · July 9, 2015

I think there's a number of things at play when it comes to Lori Weston, the blonde character on Hawaii 5-0. I'll take the fans at their word since I don't watch that show, but it does seem to be a bit of a trend when it comes to female characters- and other minority characters- who get "elevated" from support status.

First, I would point out that many of Hollywood's writers are at least in their 40s, and thus they're at least 20 years past when their interests and attitudes fully formed. 20 years ago, in the '90s, was pretty much when Hollywood started to think about diversity in its programming beyond giving it a token acceptance (Seinfeld, for example, wasn't commissioned until a female friend- who turned into Elaine- was added to the cast), but even then, consideration wasn't always thought out or thorough. So we still have a generation of writers who, when creating a show, think "male first" with their thought processes, if only because subconsciously they know no other way of doing things, plus the majority of "well written characters"- the ones writers are inspired by- were male as well.

The '90s was still a period where fare that didn't appeal to the "white male" was, for the lack of better words, "ghettoized"- if you had a show with a black lead or a female lead, executives would think it fits on its own "niche" network (like BET) or would only gain a "niche" audience, so if you wanted an "everyman" show, the lead had to be a white male. Attitudes about this are slowly changing, but writers have been slow to adapt, in large part because their own attitudes are a bit behind.

I think the other part- and this might be strange, considering the first point- is society's craving for more diversity within its culture. It's what I call the "social justice warrior" phenomenon, the main driving force behind the quest for greater diversity. Since Hollywood had, for years, perpetuated many stereotypes about minorities- the "black gangsta", the fiery Latina, the lazy Mexican, the miserly Jew, etc.- minority characters tend to get much more heavily scrutinized than white male characters do, mostly because of their identity (ironic that). To me, the motive behind it is rational- many of those stereotypes are damaging, and they have been overused to the point where they're essentially cliches. I just think sometimes, as it often does with SJWs, it goes too far, with some complaining about the slightest of flaws just because they don't want a minority character to be "weak", without understanding a flawless character is already a weak one.

As a result of this, a lot of Hollywood writers I believe are afraid to write in any lead character who isn't a white male, and they refuse to populate their shows with people who are not males, simply because writers don't want to be bothered worried about what some special interest group thinks and would rather have the audience focus on the stories and characters.

Think about it for a second.

With a female character, you're almost always going to be guaranteed to get the following questions right off the bat:

-Does the writer sexualize her?

-Does she care about having a family or places her family interests first?

-Is her conflict between family versus her career?

-Does she like pink and have any other "girly" interests?

-Is she typically the "emotional" centre of the team, the only one who displays any warmth or empathy?

-Does she need to get rescued at some point during the story?

-How pre-occupied is she with men? Does she have any other desires?

-Is a big part of her story about "what it's like to be a woman in the field"?

-Does she actually contribute to solving the story's important conflicts at hand, or does she merely go along with what the male characters say?

-Does she only fight women? Are other women the only ones allowed to inflict any pain on her?

-Does she owe her presence on the team to being the wife/girlfriend/sister of a male team member?

...and so on. There are many other questions that get asked of a female character almost routinely that will almost never be asked of a male character, and I think that's far more damaging to diversity on screen than Hollywood attitudes. Hollywood attitudes still need to change- we don't have enough Joss Whedons who will write female characters who are actually characters instead of token caricatures- but I also think we as a society have to stop asking 21 questions about a minority character when they pop up. There was an excellent article I read about a black man who said he identified more with white heroes than the black ones Hollywood "gave" him because the white ones were far more compelling, and he basically argued that creators should be creators and given the freedom to create what they want instead of having to cater to the whims of special interest groups who may never be satisfied anyway.

Truth is, we're not going to defeat stereotypes if all we get are bland, token characters, ones that pay lip service to diversity but drive audiences nuts (like Weston and JJ). The only way we'll ever defeat stereotypes is we create strong characters, people audiences can relate to and find compelling. We shouldn't also be afraid of stereotypes- if used well, they can be compelling drama (I point to this as an example that stereotypical stories- like the "damsel in distress"- can be done well). Yes, we should encourage writers to "think outside the box" and, say, make their "hard-nosed, maverick and snarky cop" a woman, because there's no reason the role should be only male. However, at the same time, we should let these characters arrive organically with the proper care and attention paid to them- because if we want more memorable minority characters, we need to make sure we've got them first.

Lots of interesting ideas here. I do think that Seinfeld would be fairly boring without Elaine. She gave the guys a chance to see situations from a woman's perspective, even though it didn't really change the way they behaved with/toward women. And she was hilarious.

We watch a lot of British cop/detective shows and they are more diverse. They definitely have a much higher rate of inter-racial couples than you find on American shows. They do have some strong female characters, but they're mostly dominated by males as well. It's amazing to me how many old farts are leading men in these series and women of all ages seem to be dying to fall into bed with them. Yeah, right!

Anyway, sorry for getting a bit off track. I know we've been ranting about the JJ character, but in looking over your points it occurred to me that, for me, the writers killed all my interest in Garcia by focusing on silly traits, some of which weren't even present in her character in the early days. They started adding a hair ornament here and there and, the next thing you know, the FBI's technical analyst is showing up to work wearing kitty ears. In early seasons she could look at crime scene photos and videos, not completely unaffected by them, but able to contribute some intelligent observations or suggestions. Now she's a like a shrieking, chest-clutching melodrama queen. And don't even get me started on how much time is wasted on her talking about how great she is or going off on other tangents instead of just giving the team the information they need. There was a post on FB the other day about Garcia because it was Kirsten's birthday. All I could think about was how we barely saw her in the pilot episode and yet you identified her character and her professionalism in just a few lines. When I watch the more recent seasons, I wonder why the FBI would even have someone like her on staff. Yes, some humor in the midst of these awful crimes is a nice relief, but I don't even find her funny anymore, just terribly annoying. Okay, rant over.

missmycat · July 9, 2015

Lots of interesting ideas here. I do think that Seinfeld would be fairly boring without Elaine. She gave the guys a chance to see situations from a woman's perspective, even though it didn't really change the way they behaved with/toward women. And she was hilarious.

We watch a lot of British cop/detective shows and they are more diverse. They definitely have a much higher rate of inter-racial couples than you find on American shows. They do have some strong female characters, but they're mostly dominated by males as well. It's amazing to me how many old farts are leading men in these series and women of all ages seem to be dying to fall into bed with them. Yeah, right!

Anyway, sorry for getting a bit off track. I know we've been ranting about the JJ character, but in looking over your points it occurred to me that, for me, the writers killed all my interest in Garcia by focusing on silly traits, some of which weren't even present in her character in the early days. They started adding a hair ornament here and there and, the next thing you know, the FBI's technical analyst is showing up to work wearing kitty ears. In early seasons she could look at crime scene photos and videos, not completely unaffected by them, but able to contribute some intelligent observations or suggestions. Now she's a like a shrieking, chest-clutching melodrama queen. And don't even get me started on how much time is wasted on her talking about how great she is or going off on other tangents instead of just giving the team the information they need. There was a post on FB the other day about Garcia because it was Kirsten's birthday. All I could think about was how we barely saw her in the pilot episode and yet you identified her character and her professionalism in just a few lines. When I watch the more recent seasons, I wonder why the FBI would even have someone like her on staff. Yes, some humor in the midst of these awful crimes is a nice relief, but I don't even find her funny anymore, just terribly annoying. Okay, rant over.

I agree with everything you've said,but as a huge Reid fan what pissed me off and what I found to be the most offensive was some where along the line they decided they Garcia was also a genius.That is sure not the way it was in the beginning. Yes it was established that she was brilliant and highly intelligent when it came to computers,but to me that isn't necessarily the same as being an outright genius.The question that should be asked is: Would Garcia be able to solve a rather complex problem without help from a computer? I seriously doubt it,but we certainly know that Reid can. Therefore she has no damn business being touted as a genius of the same caliber that he is. To me this is just more of MESSer's attempt to make Reid as irrelevant as possible.She knows she can't get rid of him outright because the fan backlash would be too great.So this is the next best thing she can do. And CBS just sits back on their collective asses and continues to allow this woman to treat the show's most popular character this way, for the simple reason, they don't have to worry about being accused of sexism for allowing her to do it. That plus MGG is just too nice of a guy to make any kind of stink about the way his character has been treated these past couple of seasons.

thewhiteowl · July 9, 2015

I am not disagreeing but will add that there are different types of genius and Reid's intellect would not help him do Garcia's job as well.

ForeverAlone · July 9, 2015

Up until they decided to make Reid a technophobe, he was probably the second most skilled team member when it came to technology, after Penelope. Sure he didn't have Penelope's coding skills, but he probably could have (or at least close enough) if he had tried and been interested in that stuff. But his interests lie elsewhere.

Cobalt Stargazer · July 9, 2015

I don't think Hollywood executives ask those questions- that's more of the domain of the numerous bloggers out there who think because they have a web page they're “enlightened”- but I do believe they're aware of them. Stuff like the Bechdel Test have been around for decades, and the recent “uproar” over the characterization of Natasha in Avengers: Age of Ultron indicates that special interest groups still hold some sway in the conversations about culture, and, no matter how irrational an executive may think it is, they have to be aware of it.

As prominent as social media is today, I think the execs are aware of the bloggers too. The problem is, IMO, is that the bloggers are either, as normasm said a few months ago, screaming from an uninformed position or examining everything down to its molecular level because if they didn't have some issue to focus on, no matter how miniscule, they'd have nothing to post about. I know about the Bechdel Test, and I'm never sure of how stringently you're supposed to apply it. If two women are discussing a work situation and the subject of men comes up, even in a non-dating capacity, the test has been failed, at least for some people. Sure, it shouldn't be that impossible to write a scene where women talk about something other than men, but it seems kind of bizarre that even comparing salaries with a man means the test can't be passed.

Without rehashing the entire Joss Whedon thing, I will say that I posted something in another thread about how I'd mind the anti-Xander attitude if the same standard of behavior was applied to the female characters, and this is a snippet of what I got in response:

But then, I don't think double standards in general are by default teh evil, either. Sometimes double standards exist for a good reason thanks to power structures/imbalances or what have you. Women thinking that they're entitled to men is not such a big problem in the real world (including the media) as the reverse, so people react to the tropes differently. It's why misogyny is a thing while misandry isn't.

I did manage to leave Taylor Swift out of it, but to quote, well, myself:

Without debating whether or not misandry is a thing, since I'm not sure how it couldn't be since someone went to all the trouble to coin a word for it, I will say that the idea that double standards should be acceptable, and possibly even encouraged, is an interesting concept. As long as they're the right double standards, obviously, and not the ones those other people use, which are to be avoided at all costs. And I'm not being even the least little bit sarcastic. If all people are created equal, then maybe some of us really are more equal than others.

And that, for me, is the entire crux of the matter. Because at one point, CM knew how to create characters who were flawed and interesting, even when they were being annoying (hi, Elle!) So either these people with their blogs just appeared in the last few years like Athena springing full grown from Zeus' forehead, or they just suddenly found someone who would pay attention to them.

I will say that I think it isn't entirely worthless to pay attention to the fans, and maybe its hypocritical of me, because I wish like hell that MESSer was infatuated with any other character than JJ and would give them some focus. It would be one thing if the focus she gave JJ was in any way good television, but between 200 and The Forever People, its been the polar opposite of good. And the Suits just.....let it slide. Maybe Erica is one of those bloggers? :-P

MCatry · July 9, 2015

I agree with everything you've said,but as a huge Reid fan what pissed me off and what I found to be the most offensive was some where along the line they decided they Garcia was also a genius.That is sure not the way it was in the beginning. Yes it was established that she was brilliant and highly intelligent when it came to computers,but to me that isn't necessarily the same as being an outright genius.The question that should be asked is: Would Garcia be able to solve a rather complex problem without help from a computer? I seriously doubt it,but we certainly know that Reid can. Therefore she has no damn business being touted as a genius of the same caliber that he is. To me this is just more of MESSer's attempt to make Reid as irrelevant as possible.She knows she can't get rid of him outright because the fan backlash would be too great.So this is the next best thing she can do.

Irrelevant =

British English: irrelevant If you say that something is irrelevant, you mean that it is not important to or not connected with the present situation or discussion.

Synonyms:

Unconnected, unrelated, unimportant, inappropriate, peripheral, insignificant, negligible, immaterial, extraneous, beside the point, neither here nor there, inapt, inconsequent.

That's the best adjective to describe Reid's situation in the show nowadays (and for some years now, as well)

I don't have a problem believing that the old Garcia was smart. The new version,... No way. With all the stupidity exhibited through her behaviour in every single episode of the last season, sorry, but I would never believe that that woman is anything but plain dumb.

Nevertheless, and even though it is true there are different types of genius, (and quite a few pseudo-researchers are trying to play down intellectual superiority by matching it with the so called 'other intelligences', lets not forget canon Reid has an iq of 187. That doesn't qualify as 'genius' but as profoundly gifted, which is an entirely different category.

But getting back to the point, I have serious issues with the genius category acquired by Garcia since season seven:

On one side, it is an obvious attempt to minimise Reid as the former resident genius. In that way, actions that could have been performed by Reid are now delivered by Garcia.

On the other side, it's the disregard of Messer and Co. for the former IT abilities of the former Reid. He was the one in charge of technological equipment in earlier episodes, and he was trusted with that. Take, for instance, broken mirror, in which he handles the tracking devices without remote assistance from Garcia. Or in third life, when Garcia called him (I miss Garcia calling anyone but Morgan nowadays) because they were both involved in finding out what was going on on the computers of a couple of missing girls.

So Garcia is promoted to genius, then to World-Supreme-hacker, and Reid needs her help to click on a slide projector remote control?

That's what makes me mad about the 'Garcia-is-a-genius' situation.

normasm · July 9, 2015

Reid's a certified genius not only because of his IQ. His eidetic memory is a major component. But I agree with all you've said about Garcia. Not. A. Genius. At least not anymore.

MCatry · July 9, 2015

Reid's a certified genius not only because of his IQ. His eidetic memory is a major component. But I agree with all you've said about Garcia. Not. A. Genius. At least not anymore.

It seems I failed to communicate my ideas again. What I meant is that an iq of 140 would give you the abstract category of 'genius', but then there are people that have higher iqs, and these are categorised as "excepcionally gifted", and then those who have even higher iqs are called "profoundly gifted".

Still, the point is that the current version of Reid can't use a remote control. Or a laptop. And the only ability they seem to use is his eidetic memory. Sometimes.

Danielg342 · July 9, 2015

Reid just seems to be the shorthand for “whatever cool thing the writer read about on Google”, nothing more.

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