The Tims: Pastor and Alice

[sistermagpie]

I realized Pastor Groovyhair could probably deserve his own topic. What is this guy thinking? 

Do he and his wife argue all the time about his decision to protect Soviet spies? Does Alice occasionally want to throttle Paige and/or her husband? How big is his ego? Has he cleaned out the bank accounts of any other kids? Does he think the Jennings like him? Did he buy Elizabeth's attempts to suck up last season? Does he secretly feel inadequate around Philip?

Note he hasn't actually tried to reassure the Jennings family that Alice destroyed her tape. I wonder if he wanted her to, and if she just refused. 

The Tims are quiet now, but they're still always there, ready to be a problem if Tim ever decides it's more moral to end this than keep quiet--or if Alice decides it for him. In some ways he's more dangerous than Stan since he knows the truth.

Also, what's his church about? I loved the conversation in another thread about the little signs we get, so I'll quote some here:

Quote

Being "conversant" with the Bible and seeing it as a be-all-end-all "answer book" for daily living are two very different things.  If you're liberal, and conversant with the Bible, you see it as more of a historical text that outlines a trajectory for moral behavior. It's not seen as a once-and-for-all rule-book depicting ethical absolutes. No one is saying that ONLY conservative Christians open and read the Bible. But we ARE saying that how you view the text varies greatly depending on your idealogical presuppositions - regardless of which passages you're reading. And, as such, as a general rule, liberal Christian don't gather for weekly Bible studies, because the Bible itself doesn't hold the same absolute authority as it does for conservative Christians. 

Quote

 

  ON 3/25/2017 AT 0:03 AM, BRETTON SAID:

Being "conversant" with the Bible and seeing it as a be-all-end-all "answer book" for daily living are two very different things.  If you're liberal, and conversant with the Bible, you see it as more of a historical text that outlines a trajectory for moral behavior. It's not seen as a once-and-for-all rule-book depicting ethical absolutes. No one is saying that ONLY conservative Christians open and read the Bible. But we ARE saying that how you view the text varies greatly depending on your idealogical presuppositions - regardless of which passages you're reading. And, as such, as a general rule, liberal Christian don't gather for weekly Bible studies, because the Bible itself doesn't hold the same absolute authority as it does for conservative Christians. 

 

Quote

Yes, the way the first thing Paige did in response to the church was to be reading the actual Bible, plus her Bible full of stickies that she's studying at home implied to me that she was supposed to be using it as a guide to life in parallel to the way Elizabeth had the Cause and the teachings of Soviet socialism guiding her own. Plus then there was the later mention of weekly Bible study--one that people will notice if Paige isn't "into".  It certainly seemed like that Bible study, as well, was one for teenagers and while I'm sure you can and have a liberal church that holds Bible study for teens with a liberal bent, it's something I would connect more with a church that's Bible-based. In a more liberal church I would expect the Bible study to be something optional for adults who are interested in studying the Bible, not something that would support weekly meetings with 16-year-olds who would be called out if they're not showing enough enthusiasm for the study. That, too, implied to me that this is about applying things in the Bible to your own problems and life.

[SunnyBeBe]

I would definitely like an explanation as to why Pastor Tim and his wife are not a staple in the Jennings household right now.  If it's due to Paige being preoccupied with Matthew, then, I'd like to see how that was explained to them and how they took it.  I mean....knowing what they know, I would imagine at least a raised eyebrow or two. 

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I would definitely like an explanation as to why Pastor Tim and his wife are not a staple in the Jennings household right now.  If it's due to Paige being preoccupied with Matthew, then, I'd like to see how that was explained to them and how they took it.  I mean....knowing what they know, I would imagine at least a raised eyebrow or two. 

I would assume they are as much of a presence as they always were. Paige still volunteers, goes to church, goes to Bible Study. Don't know what they know about Matthew, but it probably would raise an eyebrow with Pastor Tim if Paige was dating somebody without him knowing about it since he thinks they're so close. And again, it would be odd that if he did know he wasn't encouraging her to bring Matthew to youth group. He's not her guidance counselor, after all. Or her shrink. He's a guy who runs what appears to be a pretty aggressively recruiting youth group.

[Umbelina]

If Philip and Elizabeth can find out so much information about others, WHY haven't they discovered that lawyer's name, broken into his office, and removed the damn tape?

Enough time has passed already.  I don't believe Center, or even Gabe, would be OK with the Pastor's continuing to live.  They are the only ones that can expose their extremely valuable agents.  In fact, Center, in no way, even needs the Jennings to handle that, break in teams and hit teams could handle it all.  Perhaps, from tonight's preview, they

Spoiler

learn the name of the lawyer from the diary?

I hope so, I'm over them, and it's unbelievable to me that the KGB would allow them to continue to live. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Oh, I thought that they (other Soviet spies)  were listening to all the phone calls to Pastor Tim's house after he went missing./ (Maybe before then.)  and they determined that wife's empty threat was not true. No phone calls had gone out to any lawyer.  She just said that to keep a sense of security when she thought that Tim had been taken by them.  Does anyone else recall that?

I'm not sure that I agree that Paige is doing all the same things with the church that she did before.  Before that's all she was doing.  Now, every time we see her she's with Matthew AND Philip and Stan have talked about how she's at Stan's all the time.  And when she's not there, she has time to play fight with her mom in the garage.  Maybe, she still attends church on Sunday, but, the non-stop Pastor Tim involvement has not been shown so far.  Maybe, we'll find out soon enough. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Umbelina]

That wouldn't prove anything though, she wouldn't have had to make that call from the church office (I think that's the room they are bugging.) 

I certainly wouldn't have, especially if I already believed they had something to do with my husband going missing.  Then again?  I would have headed straight to the FBI the moment I heard about Russian spies, and that they knew I knew.

It's all very bizarre, and the Pastor's wife flat out said she's not as naive as her husband about who the Jennings are and what they do. 

I would never trust spies, yours, mine, our ours.  Ever.  I might not be afraid of "ours" but I wouldn't trust a word from their mouths.  From enemy spies?  Oh hell no, I'd have told my husband to grow up, WE ARE GOING TO THE FBI before we are both killed.

They would be dead too, if not for Gabe being exposed to that disease.  They are only alive because of luck.

[SunnyBeBe]

Allowing Pastor Tim and Wife to live was a huge risk.  But, based on what I recall, Elizabeth felt pretty comfortable that the empty threat was just that.  Maybe, they even started recording all the Pastor's phone calls right after he found out the truth about them.  Do you remember right before  the parking lot attack, Paige asked her mom if maybe she should ask Pastor Tim's wife about that tape, but, Elizabeth said it's probably better to let it just be.  Then she told Philip why and it was due to their wire tapping leading them to believe that no one else had been brought into it and that there was no attorney.    Yeah......it's still pretty risky to me.  It doesn't sound like something P & E would do, imo, but, there is that Paige thing that they have to safeguard.  Pastor Tim and his wife's death would likely send Paige over the edge. 

[Sarah 103]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 Maybe, she still attends church on Sunday, but, the non-stop Pastor Tim involvement has not been shown so far.

I thought she still probably goes, but not as much as before. Since Pastor Tim seems to do quite a bit of work with teens/young people, he would know it's common for new members to be incredibly active at first, and then taper off a little. 

[Umbelina]

It's stupid on every level.

If ANYTHING happens to the pastor and his wife?  They will be exposed.  Let's hope they are very careful drivers, and no one slips in the bathtub, or, you know, simply changes their mind and chooses country.  That food pantry is obviously in a bad neighborhood, they could be shot or robbed, or stabbed, as Elizabeth and Paige almost were.  They are?  The tape goes to the FBI.

They'd be dead.  There is no way the KGB would allow such a risk.  None.  Zip.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Oh, I thought that they (other Soviet spies)  were listening to all the phone calls to Pastor Tim's house after he went missing./ (Maybe before then.)  and they determined that wife's empty threat was not true. No phone calls had gone out to any lawyer.  She just said that to keep a sense of security when she thought that Tim had been taken by them.  Does anyone else recall that?

It was Philip who said he listened to the bug they have on the Tims and there was nothing mentioning any tape on it, I think. The tape could still exist. And unless they replaced it with a tape that looked the same and no one noticed, they'd make another one if it disappeared.

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I'm not sure that I agree that Paige is doing all the same things with the church that she did before.  Before that's all she was doing.  Now, every time we see her she's with Matthew AND Philip and Stan have talked about how she's at Stan's all the time.  And when she's not there, she has time to play fight with her mom in the garage.  Maybe, she still attends church on Sunday, but, the non-stop Pastor Tim involvement has not been shown so far.  Maybe, we'll find out soon enough. 

Elizabeth laid out the things she was supposed to be doing with the Tims and I can't see any reason she can't be still doing it around this other stuff. It used to be all she did because we saw a lot of it. That and Elizabeth talking with her parents. She recently said she was scared to go alone to the food pantry so she must be expected to volunteer somewhere. They just have new stuff to say about Paige now.

She's not allowed to taper off that much. It doesn't matter what normal teens do. She has to take their emotional temperature very often. It's bizarre enough they're allowed to live at all. They can't just let them go on their way.

[SunnyBeBe]

That's just it. I don't think there is a tape. That was a lie. 

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That's just it. I don't think there is a tape. That was a lie. 

Yeah, that's the thing, there's no way for them to know. If there is a tape and they took it, there could be another. Or Alice could have been bluffing. The parents, imo, know they have no way of knowing for sure and that searching the house would be pretty useless. Paige is focused on it as something that can undo the past, but she's chasing a phantom. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Also, Philip went over and searched the house for a tape too, right? It was Philip or someone on his behalf, plus, with no phone call to anyone else, especially no attorney, they concluded that there was no tape and no contact with lawyer.  So, I took it as that was the case.  Now, we see Paige snooping.  But, it seems that E is now thinking that it might have value to get something on Pastor Tim to use as leverage, IF it comes to that.  I can see her angle, but, there are risks.  

It seems to me that Pastor Tim and Alice have COMPLETE faith in Paige to leave a newborn in her care.  I mean.....I'm not sure that I would do that with a teenager.  I mean, maybe, close family relatives who have cared for infants before, but,....maybe that's just me. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

 

Also, Philip went over and searched the house for a tape too, right?

 

No, they never searched the house. You might be thinking of the time Philip searched his office to get an idea for how to kill him in what looked like an accident. That's how he found out about the cabin. They didn't conclude there was no tape or no lawyer--they can't prove a negative. Philip just said he listened to the tape and didn't hear anything about either.

5 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seems to me that Pastor Tim and Alice have COMPLETE faith in Paige to leave a newborn in her care.  I mean.....I'm not sure that I would do that with a teenager.  I mean, maybe, close family relatives who have cared for infants before, but,....maybe that's just me. 

This seems like another 1980s thing. Teenagers babysat, even for young babies, just as they could be home alone or out late.

[SunnyBeBe]

27 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

No, they never searched the house. You might be thinking of the time Philip searched his office to get an idea for how to kill him in what looked like an accident. That's how he found out about the cabin. They didn't conclude there was no tape or no lawyer--they can't prove a negative. Philip just said he listened to the tape and didn't hear anything about either.

This seems like another 1980s thing. Teenagers babysat, even for young babies, just as they could be home alone or out late.

Hmmm.... you may be right, but, I'll double check.  It seems someone looked for the tape in Pastor Tim's house. Maybe, I dreamed it. 

[sistermagpie]

Didn't she say it was with her lawyer?

[SunnyBeBe]

52 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Didn't she say it was with her lawyer?

Yes, she did, but, the thing is , she had been under surveillance and her phones bugged at church and home.  No way she could have called someone about it or taken it to them.  Plus, imo, there was a search and n tape turned up.  (I'll have to review that to find the exact wording.)  But, I agree, there is no way that P & E can be 100% sure there is nothing out there, but, I think the show made it pretty clear that the viewer should not be too concerned about it.  I suppose time will tell more. 

[kokapetl]

Why a tape and not a letter, anyway? 

Alice says she has an incriminating tape, but I don't think the good pastor would have agreed to it, so I don't think he knows about it, I don't think the dramatic blackmail tape even exists. 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Kokapetl

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Alice says she has an incriminating tape, but I don't think the good pastor would have agreed to it, so I don't think he knows about it, I don't think the dramatic blackmail tape even exists. 

I think it may have been just her on the tape. But yeah, a letter would work just as well. If I was Alice I'd have back-ups. If they killed me I'd want all of them going down.

[kokapetl]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think it may have been just her on the tape. But yeah, a letter would work just as well. If I was Alice I'd have back-ups. If they killed me I'd want all of them going down.

Is that the Christian thing to do to poor innocent Paige?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Kokapetl said:

Is that the Christian thing to do to poor innocent Paige?

Heh. Alice might not care. 

[Umbelina]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

That's just it. I don't think there is a tape. That was a lie. 

Why on earth not?  It's EXACTLY what I would have done.  Sealed, with a lawyer, if either of us died for any reason.  At that time she had hope that her husband MIGHT still be alive, so she was saying, basically, "if you can save him, you better do it, because your lives are over too if you kill him."

3 hours ago, Kokapetl said:

Why a tape and not a letter, anyway? 

Alice says she has an incriminating tape, but I don't think the good pastor would have agreed to it, so I don't think he knows about it, I don't think the dramatic blackmail tape even exists. 

It's probably both, letters can be forged, tapes have more impact.  The tape with an explanation letter.

The Pastor was in Africa when she made it, but I'm sure he knows by now, and is going along with it.  So, he does have some sort of brain after all.  She wouldn't lie to her husband.

Mrs. Pastor isn't paranoid.  They would BOTH already be dead except Gabe accidentally got infected so the hits were called off.  A tape is the very least she could do to protect them. 

She could have made the tape anywhere, contacted the lawyer in person, he could be a church member, or gone over to a relative's house, or a million other explanations.  Maybe she's best friends with the lawyer's sister so she went over to her house to ask her to call her brother so she could get an appointment that day.  Maybe, she was intelligently paranoid, after all, she's dealing with the fucking KGB, and she didn't want to make the tape in her house.  I sure as hell wouldn't, and if I did call the lawyer it would have been from a pay phone.

Not all people are brain dead.

The Jennings haven't bugged the entire house.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

I guess the Jennings will need to target the Tim's baby if they're ever going to break Mrs Tim. 

[White Sheep]

As soon as I heard about them going to South America. I knew there were NOT coming back.  Just like in goodfellas: 

 

[Pike Ludwell]

They are both absolutely hideous people who I would never want anything to do with.

[White Sheep]

Since we been talking so much about it.  Some info on left wing churches:

 

https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/05/29/another-liberal-denomination-is-dying/

Edited August 7, 2017 by White Sheep

[Roseanna]

In S2 we heard Pastor Tim's only sermon where he said that Jesus came to the world so that people would be happy. Just happy, not blessed which is spoken in Sermon of Mount. In S1 the African-American maid who let P&E put the bug in the clock, listened to a sermon which warned of wrongdoing and made her repent and confess her deed. I think that her pastor was more Christian than Pastor Tim.  

On the hand, Paige seemed to be interested in sacrifice for a cause and admired Pastor Tim for his arrest for civil disobedience. P&E was quite right to think that it was nothing compared with real sacrifice.

Unlike some, I understand that as an atheist Elizabeth didn't want Paige to go the Church camp. After all, religious parents would hardly want their children to go to a camp arranged by the atheists. Anti-Communist parents wouldn't want their children to become Communist and vice versa.

On the other hand, Philip was right: if you refuse your children, it would only increase their zeal, and opposing your dictatorial orders becomes an extra motive for them.               

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In S2 we heard Pastor Tim's only sermon where he said that Jesus came to the world so that people would be happy. Just happy, not blessed which is spoken in Sermon of Mount. In S1 the African-American maid who let P&E put the bug in the clock, listened to a sermon which warned of wrongdoing and made her repent and confess her deed. I think that her pastor was more Christian than Pastor Tim.  

I thought it was interesting when Philip challenged him on whether he really thought anyone was redeemable. Tim truthfully said yes he did and I think Philip recognized his sincerity, but I think he also still understood that Tim didn't really understand the concept the way Philip did. It's easy to forgive people when it's more of an intellectual or philosophical exercise. 

As I said in the re-watch thread, I honestly think that Viola is the best depiction of a Christian the show ever had. She was exactly the type of believer I think that woman would be and her faith was completely connected to her morality. I think Tim was a more privileged person and very much untested. His experience in Africa really is the first time he or his wife feels real fear and he rethinks some things. Viola hadn't ever faced people like Philip and Elizabeth before but she'd faced hardships for sure.

Another thing about Pastor Tim's church is that he's preaching to a middle class white suburban audience. For all his talk about radical beliefs and his liberal ideas, he's not setting foot outside anything that wouldn't be palatable to those folks. Otherwise he'd be at a different church, probably one with a congregation of outcasts. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

I don't think that's strictly true, although honestly, I wish we'd seen a LOT less of Pastor Tim.  His church wasn't in the greatest area of town.  He ran a food kitchen for the poor and homeless in an even worse area of town.  He built schools and brought aid to dangerous areas of Africa.

I don't see him as an upper middle class only preacher at all.

That said, the only time I enjoyed the Tim's AT ALL was when the wife threatened Philip and Elizabeth.  That rang true.  The rest?  Oh please....

[sistermagpie]

17 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think that's strictly true, although honestly, I wish we'd seen a LOT less of Pastor Tim.  His church wasn't in the greatest area of town.  He ran a food kitchen for the poor and homeless in an even worse area of town.  He built schools and brought aid to dangerous areas of Africa.

There's nothing about Tim's church that I remember that ever suggests it's in a bad part of town or that the congregation and youth group is made up of people much different from Paige herself. It's a nice, big white building on what looks like a quiet street with another big white building nearby. The youth group that greets Paige is made up of a bunch of kids Paige fits right in with. It's Elizabeth who first takes Paige to an obviously seedy place--something that Paige reacts to nervously.

Tim does work at a food kitchen in a worse area, but running a food bank and mission trips to poorer parts of the world like the trips mentioned in the show are unremarkable in a middle class church.

I'm not doubting Pastor Tim's beliefs in wanting to help the poor, but kids like Paige and their families are his congregation and they're comfortable with him. Even the trip to Ethiopia underscores that Tim and Alice are well-meaning and not based in the danger zone.

Edited July 20, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

There's nothing about Tim's church that I remember that ever suggests it's in a bad part of town or that the congregation and youth group is made up of people much different from Paige herself. It's a nice, big white building on what looks like a quiet street with another big white building nearby. The youth group that greets Paige is made up of a bunch of kids Paige fits right in with. It's Elizabeth who first takes Paige to an obviously seedy place--something that Paige reacts to nervously.

Tim does work at a food kitchen in a worse area, but running a food bank and mission trips to poorer parts of the world like the trips mentioned in the show are unremarkable in a middle class church.

I'm not doubting Pastor Tim's beliefs in wanting to help the poor, but kids like Paige and their families are his congregation and they're comfortable with him. Even the trip to Ethiopia underscores that Tim and Alice are well-meaning and not based in the danger zone.

I lost my post during the error 500 thing.  Damn.

My point is, Tim started a food pantry in a terrible area of town, and went there (at least) once a week.  He traveled to Africa every year to try and help.  Ethiopia was definitely NOT a "safe" place in the eighties.  Aside from being Soviet controlled, and all that means, there was a desperate famine/drought situation, as well as pretty much non stop warring.  He didn't go to a "safe" place in Africa to help at all.

I think Tim was a fool, naive, and many other things, but he was putting his body where is mouth was, so not a hypocrite, and certainly not merely a dilettante. 

He bored me silly though, as did his wife.  We should have had a LOT less of the Tims, and frankly, of Paige as well.  The finale, such as it was, would have still had impact on those who liked it.

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I think Tim was a fool, naive, and many other things, but he was putting his body where is mouth was, so not a hypocrite, and certainly not merely a dilettante. 

 

I wasn't suggesting he was a hypocrite or a dilettante, really. When I said he wasn't setting foot outside anything that would be palatable to those folks I meant in his work as a pastor there. Not everyone in the congregation would be up for going on any of his mission trips or working at the food pantry itself but they probably wouldn't have a problem approving of them. Some would be up for it--he encourages the Jennings to join the Africa trip he's planning in Stingers and Philip says he knows Paige will want to go etc. 

I think the Ethiopia trip is different, though, since he's by himself. I got the impression that that was something more risky, probably mostly actual pastors, at least that's how I imagined it. I remember at the time thinking that it seemed like it was probably something he was doing before the baby was born and he had to really settle down. 

Of course, the congregation probably also wouldn't approve of covering for Soviet spies, so Tim shouldn't be taken as a a mirror of everyone at the church. 

[Umbelina]

Am I misunderstanding you?  Tim did take a church group with him to Ethiopia, he wasn't alone. 

[sistermagpie]

27 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Am I misunderstanding you?  Tim did take a church group with him to Ethiopia, he wasn't alone. 

I thought the Ethiopia trip was one he went on with other missionaries but it wasn't one of the trips he took a group of people/family/kids from the church with him. I thought that was why the church had a bon voyage party for him, because it was a trip he was taking rather than a thing a group from church was doing. Like the mission trip he invites the Jennings on to Kenya.

His trip to the other village in Ethiopia, iirc, was him and another guy and maybe a guide leaving the group and getting lost.

[Umbelina]

He, and another missionary definitely left "the group" and went driving, got lost, broke down.

Who knows?  I always assumed the church group went, as they always did, each summer, to Africa.  It was, according to Tim, as much of an "our church bonding" thing as it was charity.  The "goodbye" party would have happened each year.  We don't know if Philip booked that trip (which is likely, since he always did by then) because of a 7 month time jump.

Either of us could be correct, I don't think it was mentioned on the show.  What WAS mentioned several times is that each year, he and a group of HIS church went to Africa.  I don't know why this trip would have been any different.

Edited July 20, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

Aside from some of Pastor Tim’s more leftist views and covering for Soviet spies, nothing he did was exceptional for a pastor. 

He did what many pastors do- goes on and organizes mission trips to poor countries, helped out the poorer local community in various ways. Got to know members of his congregation. It was an active, mission driven church, but that’s not unusual. And the church itself looked to be in a suburban area with a suburban congregation. 

We saw way more of him than needed. We could have seen less of him and achieved the same result. But there were aspects of the story as a whole that I liked. 

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

We saw way more of him than needed. We could have seen less of him and achieved the same result. But there were aspects of the story as a whole that I liked. 

Which ones?

Off the top of my head the only really interesting scenes were:

1. When Philip nearly killed him after finding out about Paige's $600.
2. The first moments of the dinner party Stan crashed, specifically when Stan said he was FBI.
3. His wife finally using her brain and threatening Philip and Elizabeth with exposure.  (LOVED that scene, except there is no way in hell Henry didn't hear her, which again, they always dropped the ball where Henry was concerned on this show.)
4. The scene with Stan questioning him at the end.
5. The phone scene when Paige ratted them out, though technically, we didn't even see him or hear him.

In most of those scenes though?  It was the other adults that made them interesting.  Stan, Philip, Elizabeth's reactions, the shock of Paige's immediate betrayal.

Any scene with Paige was boring, the church was boring, and by the 2nd time he told Philip how to raise his kids I wanted to hit him as much as Philip did.

Now, if the KGB had murdered them on screen, especially while she was pregnant?  I would have been riveted.

[Erin9]

Lol- When Tim tried to tell Philip how to parent his kid, I had the same reaction as you did. He really was incredibly condescending and such a know it all. No wonder he and Paige hit it off.lol

Regarding the entire story- not just P Tim- I really liked:

Paige telling P Tim everything. For the fallout. 

I seem to recall Paige having to state the obvious to Tim when he wanted to find out more about what her parents did- and Paige had to remind him- they’re her PARENTS. 

Tim assuming that Paige’s dad was hard on her based on the confrontation over money- nope it’s Elizabeth actually! 

Philip helping her look for a baptismal dress and also telling her to be herself.

Because it was funny- I loved Elizabeth freaking out about Paige being involved in the church. You’d have thought Paige was using drugs. Philip didn’t like it anymore than she did, but he was way more pragmatic about it than Elizabeth. 

The wife accusing them of his murder and Paige flipping out and questioning them too. 

IIRC- Elizabeth actually said thank god when he was found. Philip’s expression was priceless. 

Stan calling Tim. 

The beginning of dinner with Stan and Tim. Lol 

Paige having the gall to tell her parents they didn’t help anyone. And Philip saying if she’d mouthed off again about nonviolent protest, he’d have hit her. It was funny the way he said it. He was so fed up with her smart mouth.

What I really enjoyed was not so much P Tim himself, but the church story in general. Parts of it anyway. Specific parts. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Which ones?

For me, I really liked the idea of Paige telling this guy who up until then had been a sort of weapon against her parents, somebody she could complain to and believe was all about her. So she stupidly gave him power over her entire life and only then realized that this meant he was now just a big liability that she could never be rid of. That whole idea went right to the heart of what the show was about. Alice threatening them was also a good story--though I guess one that really said something about Paige in that she pretty much sided with Alice and didn't seem to think the potential consequences of this were real. (She was only bothered by Tim really when he let her down personally.) Stan's final phone call to him and the dinner scene was pretty funny.

But he hung around forever, way after his power was diluted. Paige's final break with him seems in retrospect to be about her choosing to see herself as uniquely tragic and fated to be spy like her mother, but her relationship with Pastor Tim wasn't compelling to watch. What I really didn't like was whenever it seemed like they were trying to make some connection between him and her parents. Like that ep where Elizabeth seems to be maybe trying and failing to manipulate him or else genuinely be talking to him about her problems. (Granted, the world is full of people there to listen to Elizabeth's problems so I should give Pastor Tim props for not doing that if that was the idea-LOL!)

[Erin9]

11 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

For me, I really liked the idea of Paige telling this guy who up until then had been a sort of weapon against her parents, somebody she could complain to and believe was all about her. So she stupidly gave him power over her entire life and only then realized that this meant he was now just a big liability that she could never be rid of. That whole idea went right to the heart of what the show was about. Alice threatening them was also a good story--though I guess one that really said something about Paige in that she pretty much sided with Alice and didn't seem to think the potential consequences of this were real. (She was only bothered by Tim really when he let her down personally.) Stan's final phone call to him and the dinner scene was pretty funny.

But he hung around forever, way after his power was diluted. Paige's final break with him seems in retrospect to be about her choosing to see herself as uniquely tragic and fated to be spy like her mother, but her relationship with Pastor Tim wasn't compelling to watch. What I really didn't like was whenever it seemed like they were trying to make some connection between him and her parents. Like that ep where Elizabeth seems to be maybe trying and failing to manipulate him or else genuinely be talking to him about her problems. (Granted, the world is full of people there to listen to Elizabeth's problems so I should give Pastor Tim props for not doing that if that was the idea-LOL!)

Yes- I really liked that too- he started out as being the guy she can complain to about her parents- who mostly supports her POV- to a guy she foolishly shared the big family secret to, who now controls her life, who she is now stuck handling and can’t get rid of. 

But watching that relationship play out wasn’t compelling. 

[sistermagpie]

Thinking about it I think part of it is that later stories with him didn't hit the parts that might have been more compelling because there's more conflict. Like on the most mundane level Paige is a girl who went through a phase and then the phase ended and she was stuck pretending it was still going on. She didn't even need to turn against religion, per se. It didn't seem like she became an atheist or anything. She just didn't get out of it what she did before. Partly because she's now ruined it for herself but maybe also it's just no longer something she gets satisfaction out of doing. There were hints, as mentioned here, that Pastor Tim worried about her losing her religion but they were barely a blip at times and instead he's stuck doing things like giving her Marx to read.

Like when he says he fears for her soul, does Paige worry about that? Like in religious terms? Or does she not care about God? It always seemed to me that that was the part she was most pretending about. She talks about praying with Elizabeth once in a way that to me made it sound like she wasn't that into it herself, but, for instance, it might have been interesting if she talked to her atheist father who struggles with morality but doesn't believe in God. But Paige, despite being brought up without religion is still American and so would have probably considered God a given (Henry does).

[Umbelina]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Off the top of my head the only really interesting scenes were:

1. When Philip nearly killed him after finding out about Paige's $600.
2. The first moments of the dinner party Stan crashed, specifically when Stan said he was FBI.
3. His wife finally using her brain and threatening Philip and Elizabeth with exposure.  (LOVED that scene, except there is no way in hell Henry didn't hear her, which again, they always dropped the ball where Henry was concerned on this show.)
4. The scene with Stan questioning him at the end.
5. The phone scene when Paige ratted them out, though technically, we didn't even see him or hear him.

Basically, I think your lists of things you liked about the endless Father Tim story was the same list I gave here.  That's very little for a very long time on this show, boring us silly.

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Like when he says he fears for her soul, does Paige worry about that? Like in religious terms? Or does she not care about God? It always seemed to me that that was the part she was most pretending about. She talks about praying with Elizabeth once in a way that to me made it sound like she wasn't that into it herself, but, for instance, it might have been interesting if she talked to her atheist father who struggles with morality but doesn't believe in God. But Paige, despite being brought up without religion is still American and so would have probably considered God a given (Henry does).

I think we are supposed to think one of two things, from the writing anyway.

1. Paige is a flibbertigibbet blindly throwing herself into one cult after another, as long a strong leader appears to believe in it, and compliments/loves her.
2. Paige learned to hate religion because conning the Pastors became her full time, dreary job.  She was forced to spend all of her time with them, and report back.  She was ordered to volunteer for everything, go to bible study every week, not spend a single day of her life without contact with the Tims.  That drudgery turned her against them and religion.

Or both of the above.

They really should have killed the Tim's.  It would have made a much more interesting story, but the truth is, I don't think the actress had the skills to make that work, she was able to portray sulky put upon teenager much more easily. 

The writers should have done it though, it was the ONLY logical thing the KGB could have done.  Two of their most prized assets were in danger of exposure.  They could have done Paige's reactions in carefully edited footage put to a great song, in another of their music montages.

Speaking of music montages, there is a cool article I just put in the media thread where they rate them.  It's pretty cool to look at them and remember.

Edited July 21, 2018 by Umbelina

[Roseanna]

When Paige during her birthday dinner with Tims announced her decide to be baptized, Philip wondered if Tim's Church arranged baptism.  Doesn't all Christian churces demand baptism as a condition of membership?

In the Lutheran Church (the most common Church in Finland) baptism is mostly done to babies, but teenagers have a confirmation school after which they get together Eucharist (before they can have Eucharist with a parent).  

If an adult who hadn't been baptized by another Christian Church wants to join the Lutheran Church, she must get baptism education before baptism. There was no talk that Paige had such before her baptism. Nor was there ever shown or talked that she had Eucharist.  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When Paige during her birthday dinner with Tims announced her decide to be baptized, Philip wondered if Tim's Church arranged baptism.  Doesn't all Christian churces demand baptism as a condition of membership?

Depends on the church, I think. Paige was welcome to attend the church whether or not she was ever baptized in his own church. He was very liberal (to the point of actually telling Elizabeth all that mattered was how people treated each other even!) so he definitely doesn't seem like he'd be in the type of church that demanded anything. It's hard to imagine a church that didn't have any connection to baptism, but Philip's line makes sense if what he means is more just that he didn't know they were one of those churches where that was a big central thing.

I also assumed that the main reason his church did a full-immersion baptism was so that they could have the imagery of Paige going under water--though maybe there are plenty of liberal churches that also do that. I don't know all the possibilities. We had a lot of discussions about how Tim's church seemed to be whatever it needed to be in the moment rather than following the logic of a lot of real world churches.

Thinking about it now I remember Elizabeth telling Paige how the life of a spy was "forever" etc., but in reality it wasn't any more "forever" than her baptism. It didn't at all mean that she'd really be in the church forever. Plenty of teens far more religious than Paige are baptized and later have different beliefs, maybe even stop believing in God entirely. Philip and Elizabeth both retained the basic values of their adolescence but we'll never know what values Paige and Henry would have as adults.

Looking back, it seems like Paige was drawn to baptism because it made her part of the group, a way of not being alone. When Henry asks what the ceremony is Tim says it's "like an initiation" and Paige says you wash away your old self and make yourself clean for Jesus Christ. (Her delivery is a bit awkward, either because Paige doesn't really get that part or because Holly Taylor wasn't capable of really full-out playing that.) Anyway, I remember thinking "initiation" was a weird way of describing a baptism. He's basically flat-out saying this is about Paige joining his special club rather than anything spiritual.

[crgirl412]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When Paige during her birthday dinner with Tims announced her decide to be baptized, Philip wondered if Tim's Church arranged baptism.  Doesn't all Christian churces demand baptism as a condition of membership?

In the Lutheran Church (the most common Church in Finland) baptism is mostly done to babies, but teenagers have a confirmation school after which they get together Eucharist (before they can have Eucharist with a parent).  

If an adult who hadn't been baptized by another Christian Church wants to join the Lutheran Church, she must get baptism education before baptism. There was no talk that Paige had such before her baptism. Nor was there ever shown or talked that she had Eucharist.  

Roseanna- do you live in Finland?  I was just reading about it this morning! 

The type of church Paige went to didn't have Eucharist (also referred to as Communion) like the Lutheran church or the Roman Catholic church.  They are different from each other as well but I won't get into that here.  Protestant churches such as Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Non-Denominational, etc. do have communion BUT it isn't considered to be in any way the true body and blood of Christ.  It represents His body and blood- His sacrifice.  It is still done in a solemn and reverent way every week, 2x a month, 1x a month or some only have it a few times a year. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎22‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 9:38 PM, crgirl412 said:

Roseanna- do you live in Finland?  I was just reading about it this morning! 

Yes, I live in Finland. When I was a teen, it was a norm to belong to the Lutheran Church but it was just odd to to speak openly about one's religious views to the others than to be officially an atheist. Nowadays, many young people especially living in Helsinki have left the church. Only a half of the babies are baptized.      

[Roseanna]

About Paige wanting to leave the church after Pastor and his family moved away: I think it was no wonder after being there every day. Yes, her parents had insisted it, but it was also like a teenager having a crush on whatever - first nothing else matters, but only a few doesn't tire at least in a few years.   

[Umbelina]

That could have been another way Philip got through to Paige. 

"Hey Paige?  You know what being a spy is most of the time?  It's what you had to do with the Pastors, constantly hang out with people you don't want to, while pretending you really do want to.  So, if you liked that experience?  Welcome to the KGB."