Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[ostentatious]

There was nothing wrong with Ray going to her job and pursuing her professionally THERE. But, it comes off stalkerish, IMO, to go to the hospital while she's visiting a friend and to buy off her company and imply that you'd do the same for any other company she applies for. That is controlling and manipulative. How many men have that happen to them? So, I would bat an eye because 1 billion is a lot of money--a lot a lot. 

To be fair, at the hospital he was also trying to get her to undo what she'd done to all his devices. If somebody had ruined all my devices, I would hunt them down.

 

I think Oliver comes to decisions about relationships on time delay. It used to take him 4 months or so to stew over something someone said to him and finally make a move. I am impressed that his delay time has been reduced to hours/days now. It didn't take him all that long, relatively speaking, to let Felicity's "not waiting down here with you" speech hit him and talk to Dig about not wanting to die down there, or after Sara's death for him to decide to work on his relationship with his own sister. His walls are thinner and things hit him more immediately. I've also noticed an increase in visual acknowledgment of aches and pains after fights and such.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think I would be super unhappy if Felicity did end up with Ray. She's been pining for Oliver for two years now and he's only given her crumbs, she deserves a guy who treats her right.

 

I have never seen it as Felicity pining for Oliver. At first she thought he was super hot and never really hid it from him -- more like blatant objectification of a hunky dude, that started out awkward because of her lack of brain-to-mouth filter, but then developed into teasing after they became friends [she kept Sally because she likes watching him doing that and told him to his face, even]. Finding someone hot =/= pining. I don't even think she was crushing -- and I mean really crushing rather than just having sexual fantasies -- on him until mid-S2.

Edited October 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

[blixie]

 

That is controlling and manipulative. How many men have that happen to them? So, I would bat an eye because 1 billion is a lot of money--a lot a lot.

 

Eh, comic book show hypberbole. Yes he's controlling and manipulative, and Oliver...isn't? wasn't? What do you think Thea thinks about that? Sorry I don't need Ray to be unerringly good and perfect, he was way over zealous in his pursuit of Felicity as an employee, "stalking",  though is something Felicity does every night for Team Arrow, so again I'm not getting morally het up about it. She does it for what she consider her *work* and he was tracking her for what he considers his *work* at QC.  Plus it's all been acknowledged and called out in narrative. I wish they *had not* had it go that way, but by I know these writers are on some Bizarro planet when it comes to writing romance of almost any kind. It was such a clunky way to make us "dislike" him before we "Love" him. Meh, I liked him from go, and I'll probably still like him when he's out of Felicity's life, leaves the canvas.

 

 

The show, in script, has described the behavior as stalking,

 

Yes I'm aware of that. The show also has said that Laurel knows Oliver in her BONES, loads and loads of other stuff I do not buy even an iota. So whatever. The shows leans on tell, doesn't mean I think they've shown it, or that I have to buy it.

[ostentatious]

I have never seen it as Felicity pining for Oliver. At first she thought he was super hot and never really hid it from him -- more like blatant objectification of a hunky dude, that started out awkward because of her lack of brain-to-mouth filter, but then developed into teasing after they became friends [she kept Sally because she likes watching him doing that and told him to his face, even]. Finding someone hot =/= pining. I don't even think she was crushing -- and I mean really crushing rather than just having sexual fantasies -- on him until mid-S2.

ITA, there has been a complete lack of pining on her part. If anyone has been pining, it's him. Edited October 29, 2014 by ostentatious

[dtissagirl]

ITA, there has been a completely lack of pining on her part. If anyone has been pining, it's him.

 

Yeah. I've been thinking about their relationship in S2, and I've come to the conclusion that one of the douchiest things Oliver ever did was that the hook up with Sara was a response to his growing feelings for Felicity.* He was adamant on repressing his feelings for Felicity, and jumping into bed with someone else is his default response anyway. He felt like he was damaged goods, and that Felicity deserved someone better than him [exemplified by Barry with his own special soundtrack and everything because this show doesn't do subtle], but there was no expectation of anything with Sara, so he went for it. Oliver has displayed he's got zero impulse control when it comes to sex and relationships, and well, Sara WAS hot [sniff]. He was kinda using Sara [and I'm pretty sure she was aware of it, and using him back to get over Nyssa] to deny his ever developing feelings for Felicity, like the emotional teenager that he is.

 

* And since Caity Lotz has said that she was as blindsided by the hook up as the audience, I'm gonna fanwank it away however I see fit. *g*

Edited October 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

[apinknightmare]

Yeah. I've been thinking about their relationship in S2, and I've come to the conclusion that one of the douchiest things Oliver ever did was that the hook up with Sara was a response to his growing feelings for Felicity.* He was adamant on repressing his feelings for Felicity, and jumping into bed with someone else is his default response anyway. He felt like he was damaged goods, and that Felicity deserved someone better than him [exemplified by Barry with his own special soundtrack and everything because this show doesn't do subtle], but there was no expectation of anything with Sara, so he went for it. Oliver has displayed he's got zero impulse control when it comes to sex and relationships, and well, Sara WAS hot [sniff]. He was kinda using Sara [and I'm pretty sure she was aware of it, and using him back to get over Nyssa] to deny his ever developing feelings for Felicity, like the emotional teenager that he is.

 

* And since Caity Lotz has said that she was as blindsided by the hook up as the audience, I'm gonna fanwank it away however I see fit. *g*

 

See, I don't think the sex came out of nowhere, but I do think that the relationship did. My preferred method of fanwanking it is to say that Oliver realized that he wasn't in a place where he could be in a relationship with Felicity (because she's the girl you commit to, and because he's got so much to lose with her if he screws it up). He told her as much in 2x06. He acted impulsively with Sara, then chose to continue it because it was familiar, she led a similar life, and he knew she wasn't going to expect all that much from him. With Felicity, I feel like there's this daunting level of "better man-ness" that Oliver feels he needs to attain - not because Felicity is putting that on him, but because he's putting it on himself because of some idealized notions he has about her. I think she's fully aware of who he is and what he's capable of, and she trusts him, but he doesn't trust himself. So, the Sara hookup was Oliver taking the emotionally easy route like he's always done, like he did again at the end of The Calm.

Edited October 28, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Nanrad]

Eh, comic book show hypberbole. Yes he's controlling and manipulative, and Oliver...isn't? wasn't? What do you think Thea thinks about that? Sorry I don't need Ray to be unerringly good and perfect, he was way over zealous in his pursuit of Felicity as an employee, "stalking",  though is something Felicity does every night for Team Arrow, so again I'm not getting morally het up about it. She does it for what she consider her *work* and he was tracking her for what he considers his *work* at QC.  Plus it's all been acknowledged and called out in narrative. I wish they *had not* had it go that way, but by I know these writers are on some Bizarro planet when it comes to writing romance of almost any kind. It was such a clunky way to make us "dislike" him before we "Love" him. Meh, I liked him from go, and I'll probably still like him when he's out of Felicity's life, leaves the canvas.

 

TBH, I don't even dislike Ray--his behavior finding/pursing Felicity just gives me a side eye. So, this is not about his being unerringly good and person--I don't need a character to be that. Bringing up whether or not Oliver does the same isn't addressing my issue with that behavior and who's to say I don't have an issue with what Oliver has done?

 

Although, I have been corrected on why he went to the hospital (I was wrong), calling him stalkerish isn't the same as saying he IS a stalker.

 

Ray seems like a nice guy and I'm not going to dislike him just because he may be a threat to Olicity and he took over Oliver's company. Overall, I don't have an issue with him. It was that one thing.

[wonderwall]

Based on the comments I've seen and the podcasts I've heard, I completely understand where some of the the concerns regarding Oliver/Felicity come from. I actually want to put my two cents in so brace yourselves, this might get a little long. 

 

Felicity is good for Oliver, but Oliver is NOT good for Felicity: And people who say this are right which is why I'm glad they're not together yet. But I'd like to add a 'yet' at the end of that sentence because obviously Oliver as a character isn't going to stay stagnant. He's going to grow as a person and going to learn how to balance his life and treat people properly. I think I'm a little forgiving of Oliver because of all he went through. He never really learned proper etiquette regarding how to treat people and was always an ass, basically. Oliver, I've noticed, is demanding by nature, he's also very brash. While he doesn't act appreciative of Diggle and Felicity, we know he is because of how different he is with them. His appreciation is given through his trust, friendship, and honesty. Would it be nice if Oliver explicitly appreciated Felicity more? Sure. But I don't think Felicity needs that validation or praise considering how confident she is. Oliver is/was be good for Felicity in the sense that he opened up a whole new life for her. He essentially gave her life purpose as a person who saves the city time and time again. And I'd like to think that Oliver could be good for her by balancing out her flaws and by keeping her grounded (just as she keeps him grounded).

 

Felicity and Oliver will NOT end up together thus it will hurt the dynamics of the team: This is a valid concern because Team Arrow is by far the best thing about the show. But I have to ask, do you really think Oliver/Felicity would get into a relationship that they know wouldn't last? I think that after Oliver grows up and if they do get together, they both know it'd be a lasting relationship thus showing the depth of their emotions and not just a "Hey I like you, you like me let's get together" sort of relationship. Then again, Felicity and Oliver breaking up in the first episode didn't really hurt the dynamics of the team other than the major disconnect between Oliver/Felicity which a lot of people don't mind based on all of the podcasts/reviews/comments I've seen. And regarding the whole "Felicity and Oliver will  not end up together" spiel, you can't honestly predict this. Considering the narrative (connecting Felicity to Oliver's humanity, Oliver telling Felicity she was the first person he saw as a 'person' etc.), it seems that Oliver/Felicity are in it for the long haul. 

 

Felicity is bound to die if her and Oliver get together: Pure speculation and considering what Harrison Wells said on the Flash about how he "foresaw" great things from her, it shows that Felicity is very much alive 10 years from now thus further (but not completely) invalidating this fear. Not only would killing Felicity offer no new material (killing someone to further Oliver's journey has been done ad nauseam), but they would also be sending out a really terrible message by killing the only woman on this show (currently) that shows strength in means that isn't physical. Killing Felicity off is just not feasible and is just ridiculously stupid. So no, this won't happen. 

 

Felicity and Oliver have no chemistry: This is entirely subjective, so I really have nothing to say for this reason.

 

These are possibly the three most valid reasons against Oliver/Felicity I've seen. And even then, these reasons are based on speculation alone. Now I'm not trying to say that the people who feel this way are wrong, I'm just saying that anything on the show can happen. I personally think that the way they're heading, it shows that Oliver/Felicity will be the main couple for the foreseeable future and that there's so much time for development between the two characters. We shouldn't really write off a couple based on speculation. 

[Guest]

For me the problem with Ray J is that I can't help but think he has this stamp of "temporary" all over his face. He will temporarily comfort Felicity, temporarily give her a choice between Oliver and he, temporarily give Olicity a headache. I don't praise the way Oliver sometimes treats Felicity, but Mr. Ray bothers me. He bothered me less in episode 3 because he was just dorky, geeky, babbling Ray. But then there's a whole other side to him that spells "sleeze" and regardless of what he does, it makes one wary. I like that he treats Felicity like an intelligent, deserving of all she's received woman. I like that emotionally he's far more open. But at the same time I realise Oliver can be all of those things which brings me back to Ray being: temporary. And with temporary, I can also add the name "plot device". It's too rushed for me to be able to call it organic. Unfortunately the writers have decided this is the way things need to go so I'll see where the story takes us.

 

Agreed. Whenever Ray is on screen all I think is 'well, this is only for 16 episodes.' Plus he doesn't really feel like a natural character to me because he's very obviously written to be the perfect match for Felicity on paper which makes me feel like we're just going through the motions until Oliver gets his act together. When I combine all this with the EP's saying they 'had to do a love triangle' and BR spending all of his screen time with EBR, it all feels very orchestrated and forced. 

 

Also, I agree that Ray was better in 303 but I can't forget that he not only manipulated Felicity into working for him, leaving her no other options, but also told her how she was feeling and that 'he knew she wasn't angry at him but at something else.' Don't presume to know or tell another person how they are feeling. Ugh. It's a sure fire way to get my back up. 

 

I have never seen it as Felicity pining for Oliver. At first she thought he was super hot and never really hid it from him -- more like blatant objectification of a hunky dude, that started out awkward because of her lack of brain-to-mouth filter, but then developed into teasing after they became friends [she kept Sally because she likes watching him doing that and told him to his face, even]. Finding someone hot =/= pining. I don't even think she was crushing -- and I mean really crushing rather than just having sexual fantasies -- on him until mid-S2.

 

THIS. I've never seen Felicity pine for Oliver. Ever. She was unashamed of her attraction to him but actual pining? No way. Just because she had an open appreciation to him doesn't mean she was sitting there waiting for him to come to his senses. If anything, given her reaction to the "I love you" ruse in the s2 finale, Felicity very clearly felt like nothing was ever going to happen between them and that was ok. Even in 206 she said Oliver deserved better than Isobel and I thought it was pretty obvious that she wasn't talking about herself. She just wanted him to be happy. That is not pining.

 

See, I don't think the sex came out of nowhere, but I do think that the relationship did. My preferred method of fanwanking it is to say that Oliver realized that he wasn't in a place where he could be in a relationship with Felicity (because she's the girl you commit to, and because he's got so much to lose with her if he screws it up). He told her as much in 2x06. He acted impulsively with Sara, then chose to continue it because it was familiar, she led a similar life, and he knew she wasn't going to expect all that much from him. With Felicity, I feel like there's this daunting level of "better man-ness" that Oliver feels he needs to attain - not because Felicity is putting that on him, but because he's putting it on himself because of some idealized notions he has about her. I think she's fully aware of who he is and what he's capable of, and she trusts him, but he doesn't trust himself. So, the Sara hookup was Oliver taking the emotionally easy route like he's always done, like he did again at the end of The Calm.

 

Agreed. I never had a problem with the Sara/Oliver hookup because they were both in a difficult place and they needed comfort. I would have understood a one night stand. It's the relationship that was weird to me but then I just assumed that it was familiar and they needed that familiarity at that point in time. Both Sara and Oliver seemed to be running away from their problems and they found solace in each other I guess.

[statsgirl]

Remember a year ago when they wanted to introduce Barry and said he was perfect for Felicity because he's as smart as she is and they talk the same language?

And now we have Ray, who is perfect for Felicity because he's "the smartest person in the room" (I'm not buying that right now) and perfect for Felicity because they have the same banter?  Yawn, I'm getting tired of the over-promoting of her with anyone who is not Oliver.

I wonder if they will just leave Oliver free. He seems so damaged and hasn't really evolved too much over the course of the show thus far. I mean, he slept with Isabel in Russia, right in front of Felicity when he knew KNEW she had a major crush on him. It was such a dick Oliver-the-Player thing to do. He also put Felicity in serious danger in the finale by making her Slade's bait - Slade/Deathstroke, the biggest baddie of them all.  If he truly loved her would he have done that?

I think that is the point where I thought 'yeah, maybe he does love her' because he trusted her to be brave and be willing to risk her life in order to take down Slade because it was so important all things he expected from Sara but never from Laurel.  he previous year he told her to get out of the foundry when the earthquake machine was going to do its work and when she refused, he was 'okay, I gotta run and save the city.'.  But in Unthinkable, Felicity was an equal partner even though she couldn't fight like Sara and Roy, or hold up Amanda Waller like Diggle.  Oliver had faith in her to be a real partner. That's real love, to me.

 

And then he turned into a douche 20 minutes into this season..

[apinknightmare]

And then he turned into a douche 20 minutes into this season..

 

He's always been a douche though, he didn't just turn into one. I think his douchiness is just a coping mechanism, and I do appreciate that he spreads that douchiness out in even measure among the people he loves and cares about. Not that I think it's okay, it's just that he wasn't just being a humorless tool with Felicity last ep, he was a humorless tool with Diggle too.

 

Although I don't think he's treated Felicity badly this season, but apparently I'm in the minority. He came close at the beginning of the last episode, but...eh, I can hand wave it, and I think editing choices made that scene come off worse than it should have. He's an emotionally stunted, scarred guy who is getting better in baby steps. And the people around him who love him call him out on it, which I like. I do hope he gets to be less crankypants soon though. I enjoyed some of his lighter moments in Corto Maltese. 

[ostentatious]

I think his frustration is mounting while she remains fairly carefree. She isn't moping, this is, as EBR said pre-season, "Oliver's battle." So he struggles, and she goes about her business.

And he doesn't want her miserable, but to him this has to seem so much easier for her.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Although I don't think he's treated Felicity badly this season, but apparently I'm in the minority.

 

In that case, I'm in the minority too.  I think both Oliver and Felicity's reactions to their aborted attempt at a romantic relationship are very much in character.   Oliver shuts down emotionally and Felicity pretends nothing is wrong.  They both have their coping mechanisms, but Oliver's is just more cold and abrupt.  I'm fine with it for now, but if it is still happening in episode 23 then I reserve the right to change my mind.

[quarks]

And Felicity basically admitted on Flash tonight that that's exactly what she's doing: pretending nothing is wrong and putting on a fake smile, while pining for Oliver. Why exactly the show thought it was appropriate for her to do that on Flash, and not Arrow, is an excellent question, though now I'm ready for Caitlin to pop over to Arrow to confess that she really loves Barry or Cisco or Wells. While making heart eyes at Oliver. 

[statsgirl]

Of course Felicity said it on The Flash. Because if she had said it on Arrow, it would have been Arrow canon.  Now it doesn't really count.   <eyeroll>

 

now I'm ready for Caitlin to pop over to Arrow to confess that she really loves Barry or Cisco or Wells. While making heart eyes at Oliver. 

Apparently that's how you write romance.

[writersblock51]

And Felicity basically admitted on Flash tonight that that's exactly what she's doing: pretending nothing is wrong and putting on a fake smile, while pining for Oliver. Why exactly the show thought it was appropriate for her to do that on Flash, and not Arrow, is an excellent question, though now I'm ready for Caitlin to pop over to Arrow to confess that she really loves Barry or Cisco or Wells. While making heart eyes at Oliver. 

Because:

1) Arrow isn't interested in Felicity's POV - it's focus is solely on Oliver's

 

2) if she said this on Arrow, the few & vocal Laurel fans would have a fit and heaven forbid the show take a stand on who's Oliver meant to be with...

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder, what happens on The Flash can be discussed at length over in that forum.

 

It's not for lengthy discussion here. So please don't.

[Guest]

I still count whatever happens on The Flash as Arrow canon because they are in the same universe and Felicity is an Arrow character. It's still relevant wherever it takes place. Yes I wish we had seen these moments on Arrow but sadly Arrow is too busy spending (wasting) time on making another character relevant after two seasons. Sorry not at all sorry.

 

The Flash made me more hopeful for Oliver and Felicity's relationship in the long term. So many Olicity undertones. I needed it.

 

Edit: Whoops! I won't say anymore on the subject! 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Guest

[wonderwall]

There isn't any time for Felicity's feelings when there's just so god damn much going on. What with Laurel training, Thea's transformation, Digg's family, Oliver being all moody, Malcolm being all evil, the stupid whodunnit, Ray Palmer being his stalkerish self... It's such a shame tbqh. 

[Chaser]

I guess I'm in the minority, because I don't have a problem with her admitting this on The Flash. Narratively it makes sense to me. Her and Barry are in the same pocket. If nothing was said given her situation, I would call BS on that. This way its a character moment for both Felicity and Barry. I liked it.

 

Also, The Flash and Arrow exist in the same universe. Felicity Smoak was laying the groundwork for a massive crossover event. Those words and actions are going to mean something in the crossover. Are they going to be dismissed too because they aren't in Starling City? The Flash is pulling in a bigger audience then Arrow right now. That's a potion of the audience that Arrow wants to pull over or in some cases pull back to them. I think it means a lot that Felicity and Barry had that moment and Felicity made that confession to that audience.

[AustenChick]

After seeing Felicity on The Flash tonight, when Felicity says her remark about "the quiet dreams you keep to yourself," I just realized how Oliver and Felicity both saw Oliver's "Don't ask me to say I don't love you" in different ways. To Oliver, he's essentially he loves her. To Felicity, she's thinking he doesn't REALLY love her because he doesn't choose the challenge of being both the Arrow and Oliver Queen, which therefore would allow them to be together. Oliver is feeling hurt because he feels like he's told Felicity how he feels and she walked away from him (even though he initiated the break). Felicity's hurt because she doesn't think Oliver can see what she sees -- the dream she has of them together. She thinks it could be great, but thinks that Oliver doesn't believe in that dream.

[wonderwall]

After seeing Felicity on The Flash tonight, when Felicity says her remark about "the quiet dreams you keep to yourself," I just realized how Oliver and Felicity both saw Oliver's "Don't ask me to say I don't love you" in different ways. To Oliver, he's essentially he loves her. To Felicity, she's thinking he doesn't REALLY love her because he doesn't choose the challenge of being both the Arrow and Oliver Queen, which therefore would allow them to be together. Oliver is feeling hurt because he feels like he's told Felicity how he feels and she walked away from him (even though he initiated the break). Felicity's hurt because she doesn't think Oliver can see what she sees -- the dream she has of them together. She thinks it could be great, but thinks that Oliver doesn't believe in that dream.

 

You hurt my heart :( I can definitely see where they're both coming from in regards to the break up. I think that's one of the things she wanted more out of life, she wanted someone who would fight for a life with her. Oliver isn't doing that and I think it really does crush her. Whereas Oliver can't give her that life because he firmly believes he's hit a brick wall and doesn't know how to get around it. It's just sad to see this disconnect between two relatively connected people.

[statsgirl]

After seeing who Felicity is on the Flash and what she can do, I think Arrow definitely suffers by not giving Felicity and Diggle enough time to be real characters instead of just supports for Team Arrow as they're usually relegated to.  It's almost like we have to fight to interpret what Diggle and Felicity are going through from facial expressions (Diggle) and extrapolating Oliver..

[Password]

I really feel Arrow's priorities are wrong. They insist on giving us what we "need" when what we want provides far better story.

[writersblock51]

I really feel Arrow's priorities are wrong. They insist on giving us what we "need" when what we want provides far better story.

Ah, yes. The EPs fancy themselves to be Whedon-esque.

 

And off I go to the Bitterness Thread again.

[wonderwall]

I'm really hoping Oliver will feel Felicity's absence as she felt his on Wednesday. Otherwise I honestly don't know what the writers are doing. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by wonderwall

[BkWurm1]

Of course Felicity said it on The Flash. Because if she had said it on Arrow, it would have been Arrow canon.  Now it doesn't really count.

 

In the previously on The Flash flashback montage, we were given scenes from Arrow with Barry and Felicity in season 2.  If The Flash can claim that that happened previously on The FLash, then I take it as an absolute that wonky time line aside in the Pilot, what happens in one show is canon in the other. 

 

There was something else from The Flash that reminded me of Arrow.  Oliver says that he can't be in a relationship because it makes him lose his focus.  Over on Flash, we have a Detective that tells his daughter that her dating his partner make him lose his focus because he stops to consider how his actions might affect his daughter.  The problem is resolved when the Partner refuses to be pushed to the side and protected. 

 

In Oliver's case he  sees himself as two potential people.  The Arrow and Oliver.  The parallel I see between Arrow and The Flash is that our guy is worrying that he will lose his edge if he's always in the back of his mind worrying bringing home Oliver safe and sound to Felicity.  Sadly since Oliver is the Arrow this problem can't be solved as simply as Oliver insisting he is all in on the hero business and knows the risks, but it did give me a greater insight into what the hell Oliver means when he says he loses his focus, cause not noticing a bug getting planted on him was weak, weak reasoning. 

[Password]

What I like about Flash right now is how problems arise and are dealt with in the episode. People are learning every week on The Flash, whereas Oliver has been somewhat stagnant for over 2 years. It's understandable given what he's suffered and exactly how much he has to get back in terms of humanity, but the emotional beats still ring true on The Flash regardless of there not being long periods of introspection for personal revelations. And it's wonderfully refreshing because I feel ready to cry every week when I watch The Flash.

I honestly can't find it in me to completely get fed up with Oliver (unless he's bitching at Felicity) because he really needs help. Barrles is finding more and more darkness in the world, whereas Oliver has suffered darkness but is muddling his way out of it. They're great contrasts.

[BkWurm1]

Another relationship insight that I'm bringing back from The Flash.  First we have a scene where Barry and Felicity have quietly called each other out on being in love with someone that doesn't see them that way (true in Barry's case but Barry only thinks it is still true in Felicity's case and she doesn't enlighten him on the changes in her life since the end result is the same...they can't be with the one they love right now).  Then Barry admits he's afraid "it'll change everything"  It, I assume is acting on his feelings.  Felicity says without any hesitation "It will, but maybe that's not such a bad thing?" 

 

I brought this up over in the other episode thread as well, but I wondered at first if this was just a sign of Felicity's continually positive outlook on life and her hope that for Barry, things would go better but I've been thinking and I think from what we have seen on Arrow, Felicity is actually relieved that she and Oliver weren't still in their safe zone of flirty, flirty and stolen touches.  As a viewer, I REALLY enjoyed that stage and will continually bemoan that Arrow let the best months of this happen off screen but while a part of me wishes that was still happening, would I trade what has happened even if where we have ended up right now is full of icky?

 

Oh, catch me at another low moment and I might change my mind, but no.  I don't want to go back to before Oliver kissed Felicity and begged her not to make him say he doesn't love her.  And I can see how Felicity wouldn't want to go back either.  She's lost the ease of day to day interaction and it's a lot harder to day dream about something when you've been told maybe never, but Felicity isn't one to stay in the stagnant darkness.  She wants more and I think for her, she needs to keep moving forward.  I think she would have loved moving forward with Oliver into another level of their relationship, something that could live out in the light of day and dream about a future, but again, now she knows right now that it not happening.  So for her, it is easier to move forward when she is able (or has a good reason to try) to let go of that future with Oliver.  

 

I don't think it is a matter of her feelings changing but of her not being willing to be miserable in the only life that she is going to get.  Oliver faces horrible trials and emerged hardened to pain and suffering, he accepts them as a way of life but I think Felicity also knows that pain and suffering is a part of life but she's learned to feel her pain but to keep striving toward the greater goal of finding happiness and I think part of her belief in being happy is not just seeing it as a far off goal or something we get to have if we are lucky, but as something that she has power over.  She does not just accept things. 

 

Life  has just told her to huddle in a corner and weep and wail and gnash her teeth together but she won't do that.  She will cry when she feels pain but she will not let it define her and she fights for what is important to her.  I think that might be where her acting like nothing has changed with Oliver comes from.  They exposed their hearts and no, rainbows did not form an instant bridge to happily every after,  but she's still there and Oliver is still there and if she can't at this moment let herself think about those maybes, she can at least fight to reclaim her place in the little family they have built. 

 

That isn't to say that she isn't suffering and that staying happy isn't something she has to work extremely hard to achieve.  I'm not convinced that she has dealt with the full impact of her almost HEA. That could be part of her embracing new challenges or feeling the need to ride the rails and check up on someone else who's life has hit a dramatic bump.  Maybe it's easier focusing on a new job and Barry's transformation and then of course there is Sara's death and her killer (not to mention a rather demanding ADA begging for favors) taking up her time. 

 

I think with Felicity's vey scientific mind, she takes comfort in knowing that she tried with Oliver but he is off the list for now.  In a way it's at stark odds with her quiet dreams of the future, but even though the change in her relationship with Oliver has changed for the seemingly worse, there is no real hope without change.  To remain stagnant is to die.  So she decides that trying and failing is better than never trying.  At least now she can think of other things. 

 

Or at least try. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

I think with Felicity's vey scientific mind, she takes comfort in knowing that she tried with Oliver but he is off the list for now.  In a way it's at stark odds with her quiet dreams of the future, but even though the change in her relationship with Oliver has changed for the seemingly worse, there is no real hope without change.  To remain stagnant is to die.  So she decides that trying and failing is better than never trying.  At least now she can think of other things. 

 

Or at least try. 

 

Lovely post, @BkWurm1, thank you! I particularly agree with your last paragraph, and yes, I think Felicity believes it's better to have tried and failed, but she's gonna do all she can to move on because she doesn't want to be stuck in relationship limbo. She's already stuck in the cave, because she considers the mission too important to quit. And it helps her that she really does have a positive view of life. I really loved that she told Barry that "of course things will change, and maybe that's not so bad", because things changed for her, and they WERE bad. She could have gone into a bitter rant to Barry because of her own relationship woes, but she's hopeful for him.

[quarks]

Of course Felicity said it on The Flash. Because if she had said it on Arrow, it would have been Arrow canon.  Now it doesn't really count.

 

 

According to Geoff Johns of DC (who also writes some of the scripts for both shows), and the producers, most of whom are the same for both shows (David Nutter is over on Flash and Guggenheim is over on Arrow, but the other three showrunners are on both shows), Arrow and Flash are in the same universe and what's canon for one is canon for the other. The most relevant quote from Geoff Johns, quoted in several places:

 

"Well, Arrow and Flash are the same universe, and we get a lot of great story out of that — especially when we have episodes that cross them over,"

 

(The first Google result for me was here: http://screenrant.com/dc-comics-movies-tv-shows-multiverse/ but you can find the quote elsewhere.)

 

I suspect the shows will have the usual inconsistencies - but that's true on Arrow as it is (for instance, when Oliver visited Laurel's apartment in episode 2 he said something about how the apartment hadn't changed a bit, which made me assume that Laurel had been living there pre-boat, but later episodes suggested that pre-boat, Laurel was still living at home and was just looking for an apartment where she and Oliver could live together; that sort of thing.)

 

First we have a scene where Barry and Felicity have quietly called each other out on being in love with someone that doesn't see them that way (true in Barry's case but Barry only thinks it is still true in Felicity's case and she doesn't enlighten him on the changes in her life since the end result is the same...they can't be with the one they love right now).

 

 

I got the impression - and this is just an impression - that although the audience knows that Oliver loves Felicity, she doesn't - not deep down inside, at least.  She knows he likes her enough to kiss her, but not enough to go out with her - whatever his reasons for this.  So she's decided to go back to the cheerful face and dream mode, while also trying to go on with her life. And at least she has kissed him once, so she knows he doesn't see her purely platonically, so there's that.

 

I did like that she didn't go into a bitter rant with Barry.

[apinknightmare]

I got the impression - and this is just an impression - that although the audience knows that Oliver loves Felicity, she doesn't - not deep down inside, at least.  She knows he likes her enough to kiss her, but not enough to go out with her - whatever his reasons for this.  So she's decided to go back to the cheerful face and dream mode, while also trying to go on with her life. And at least she has kissed him once, so she knows he doesn't see her purely platonically, so there's that.

 

I did like that she didn't go into a bitter rant with Barry.

 

Yeah, I think Felicity's under the impression that Oliver's not as serious about her as she could've or would've been about him, had he not backed off after their date. And she's right to have that impression, since...well, he let her go, regardless of the reasons. I hope he somehow finds out that she thinks that eventually, when he's ready to pursue her again, because the swoons for this girl (me) will be epic.

 

And I'm glad that Felicity didn't go into a bitter rant as well. In the end, in this instance, it doesn't matter how Oliver sees her since he told her it can't happen now, maybe not ever (DAMN YOU, OLIVER).

Edited October 29, 2014 by apinknightmare

[AustenChick]

I was thinking about why Oliver/Dig/Felicity work so well as a dynamic. I think it's because the three of them are really all different and come from different walks of life. I know that Sara, Laurel, Roy have their own unique origin stories, but the end result is being a fighting badass -- just like Oliver.(Although I think Sara did work well in the group -- Roy is all right, Laurel is still working on it) Something torturous (or many things) happened to them, and they decided to train and fight back. What makes Dig and Felicity so great with Oliver -- is their origin story with the Arrow is so simple -- they became part of the team because of Oliver's implicit trust in them and because of friendship.I think there's just something to that. Dig and Felicity bring something different to the Arrow team table than the fighters like Roy -- Dig brings his info re: weapons/war/wisdom from an older perspective and Felicity brings her tech/humor/smarts to the table.

[ostentatious]

I had to almost cry about the "quiet dreams" thing, thinking of Oliver's face staring at Felicity and the baby in the hospital.

 

Oh, will you two idiots just get married already? I never think this, really I don't. But these idiots...they actually need to get married and have babies. They want to. Does Oliver really want to go around shooting arrows at people? It's ineffective. Does Oliver really want to lead a vigilante team? Does this make him happy?

 

Go be Oliver Queen. Use the Queen name for good. Get the company back and let some combination of Felicity and Thea (eventually) run it. Oliver, be the Mayor, or be a stay at home dad. Coach youth league sports. Be on call should the Justice League form and have some need of you. Walk your daughter down the aisle when she marries John and Lyla's future son.

 

You are miserable and you *hate your life*, Oliver. Honestly? You are not happy running this thing. It causes you nothing but anxiety. Not everybody is a natural leader. The only reason this leadership thing has worked out for you so far is that most of your leadership has been dependent upon people who actually don't need a leader. Diggle and Felicity are experienced, driven, and gifted, and came to the table that way. Sara too. Let's review your leadership record with n00bs, though.

 

Helena. Roy. Laurel. Anyone else? Not such a great track record there. Helena, obvs. Roy? Gave him crap advice, though it was heartfelt. He hasn't destroyed the guy, he did teach him to fight, but as far as being a sounding board and a counselor? Nope, terrible. Told him the same wrongheaded useless crap that gets Oliver in trouble himself. Oliver can *teach*, but teaching is not leading. Many people can do both, but it still isn't the same thing.

 

And Laurel? Yeah, he does not want to lead her anywhere. Don't blame him! But Jesus H, who around this place gives the best counsel? That'd be Diggle. Who gives the best inspiring speeches that improve morale and keep eyes on the prize? That'd be Felicity. Who really WANTS to be the leader? That'd be Laurel. I am not sure that Laurel couldn't someday grow into that role, she's just like a teenager right now. But wanting to lead, being comfortable with that responsibility, and honestly the ability to see other people as assets to be deployed...that has a lot to do with it. And Laurel has that. Oliver doesn't see assets. He sees individuals. He sidelined Diggle. You think Laurel would sideline Diggle? Nope. She can be cold. Oliver can try but he never really is.

 

Marry Felicity. Have kids. Relax. *Be led* when you are needed. But otherwise just enjoy life, man.

Edited October 29, 2014 by ostentatious

[Pyramid]

Bottom line, from Felicity's view point when push came to shove, Oliver chose loneliness, darkness and danger over her. That's quite the stumbling block on the road to blissful togetherness. I mean, intellectually I'm sure she understands, but emotionally it's a fair old kick in the chucks.

[chaos is welcome]

Bottom line, from Felicity's view point when push came to shove, Oliver chose loneliness, darkness and danger over her. That's quite the stumbling block on the road to blissful togetherness. I mean, intellectually I'm sure she understands, but emotionally it's a fair old kick in the chucks.

^^. This.

I think she knows he cares, probably knows he maybe even loves her. But what good is "I love you, but I can't be with you." This is going to be the crux of their problem and OQ really needs to reside his side of it FULLY before they try to be together again. Because imagine what it would do to her if he says "yes, okay, I want to be with you," only to pull back again the next time something bad happens. This is what worries me with these writers, they like to continue conflict and rehash issues ad nauseum. It will destroy Felicity if Oliver does this to her repeatedly, so he needs to fully figure out if he can commit NO MATTER WHAT. That's the only time I want to see them together again, and I think it will be a long, long time before Oliver is there.

[statsgirl]

From the bitterness thread:

I also think she could say what she did because she can relate to Barry AND she doesn't have anyone else in Starling City that she can talk to about her feelings.  At least, no one that we know of.  Even if Sara was still alive & in Starling City, would Felicity actually confide in Sara?  I don't think so.

EBR on Ray:  

 

"We all need someone to see our bad sides, we need someone to help us grow and I think Ray right now is more supportive than destructive," she explained. "I think that's noticeable — whether or not she's consciously picking up on it — I think that's noticeable."

 

I think this is where Ray has the edge on Oliver.  We understand where Oliver is coming from, all his manpain and shutting himself off, but Felicity is going through pain too and she really needs someone who can support her.  Someone who gives rather than always takes.

 

Maybe Oliver will come around in the end, or maybe it will be took late when he finally does.

[dtissagirl]

Maybe Oliver will come around in the end, or maybe it will be took late when he finally does.

 

I think there's a high chance it's gonna be both. This show is burning through every let's-keep-a-couple-apart trope they can think of, so I'm not gonna be surprised if Oliver decides that he can be with Felicity at the exact same time she decides to date Ray. Cue the EPs gaining half a dozen more episodes of screaming OMG MOONLIGHTING CURSE in abject fear at each other.

[Danny Franks]

I think there's a high chance it's gonna be both. This show is burning through every let's-keep-a-couple-apart trope they can think of, so I'm not gonna be surprised if Oliver decides that he can be with Felicity at the exact same time she decides to date Ray. Cue the EPs gaining half a dozen more episodes of screaming OMG MOONLIGHTING CURSE in abject fear at each other.

 

I said ages ago that this would be the mid-season finale. Oliver finally realises he can be a real boy and a hero, but then he learns that Felicity is dating 50 Shades, and looks heartbroken (or at least slightly perturbed) as Felicity goes off on his private jet or whatever.

 

The only thing you have to look out for, with the pacing of this show, is that Oliver and Felicity will probably be married and divorced by the mid-point of season 4. Their whole relationship will probably last about half a dozen episodes.

[chaos is welcome]

...or will happen off screen in the hiatus. Again. Before "things" happen again.

[Password]

I'm pretty sure Felicity will already be with Ray Ray when Oliver is "ready". It just has to work out that way methinks. Not because I want to but because drama reasons. Felicity will make a choice. I'd be surprised if she and Ray are still together at the end of the season. I'm very interested to know what kind of play Oliver will make for her though. Just straight feelings talk, or try to woo her back into his arms. He has to prove to her he's actually serious so...good luck, Mr. Queen.

[blixie]

I'm still hanging tough she won't be in any committed relationship with Ray, but will have gone on a date and honestly be interested, when Oliver actually starts to fight for her and unambiguously declare himself in the affirmative: I love you, I need you, let's do this. I think she'll have wholly justifiable doubts, but probably come to the same understanding she and Barry had, tell Ray her heart is already with someone else, trifling fool he may be, and most like the plot around Ray's real motives re: QC, the city, superherodome, fighting Ra's will probably be coming together too.

 

Then again I also thought they'd not kill Sara. DAMN THEM.

[ostentatious]

When it happens it'll be one of those "He unleashes it ALLLLLL on her." I think that's why they went ahead and had that very sweet, romantic, poignant kiss in 301. They needed the first kiss to be what it was so the second kiss can be one of those wallslammers.

 

I agree that around the end of 309 there will be some thwarted initiative from Oliver toward Felicity. It will probably have something to do with Ray and Hannukah, since they keep reminding us Felicity is Jewish. A nice warm evening for Ray and Felicity that turns romantic, and Oliver's there to make his move and sees it. But the only way that thwarts him is that he wasn't REALLY ready to make his move.

 

I figure his move will be in the last three eps. This is their do-over of season one, after all. However, I could equally see it if Raylicity doesn't come to pass until very last in the season and Oliver shows up adjacent to Raylicity sex, and he's in the Tommy role this time.

[Password]

I figure his move will be in the last three eps. This is their do-over of season one, after all. However, I could equally see it if Raylicity doesn't come to pass until very last in the season and Oliver shows up adjacent to Raylicity sex, and he's in the Tommy role this time.

 

Ohhhh Don't SAY THAT PLEASE! NO NO NO! I cannot have that happening again. I was just thinking the other day of the differences between season 1 and 3 concerning this unwanted triangle. Forgive but just no.

[ostentatious]

You know how they looooooooove repeating things on this show, though.

 

I don't know about a triangle per se, but I can see them wanting both relationships to dovetail, and the first opportunity I see is yes, 309, which would be *light*. But the end of the season is the opportunity for a big dovetail, if it hasn't already happened. Then it would be much heavier, I think.

 

I actually do think they might let Ray and Felicity have sex. It felt wrong to me personally for someone other than Oliver to kiss her onscreen first, but it doesn't feel wrong (I don't mean morally, I mean tonally) for her to have sex with someone else first. Mainly because I'm pretty sure once the Olicity sex happens that's it for them both. That's on lock from that point. It's on lock for him right now, IMO.

You know how they looooooooove repeating things on this show, though.

 

I don't know about a triangle per se, but I can see them wanting both relationships to dovetail, and the first opportunity I see is yes, 309, which would be *light*. But the end of the season is the opportunity for a big dovetail, if it hasn't already happened. Then it would be much heavier, I think.

 

I actually do think they might let Ray and Felicity have sex. It felt wrong to me personally for someone other than Oliver to kiss her onscreen first, but it doesn't feel wrong (I don't mean morally, I mean tonally) for her to have sex with someone else first. Mainly because I'm pretty sure once the Olicity sex happens that's it for them both. That's on lock from that point. It's on lock for him right now, IMO.

[Chaser]

When Ray was introduced I figured that he would be used for two romantic beats: if I can't be with you can I be with anyone else and perfect on paper. I was surprised that they had Felicity hit the perfect on paper with Barry on The Flash. I wonder if they will reuse it with Ray here?

 

Honestly, nothing has convinced me that Ray and Felicity will be serious. Oliver may make a move and Felicity is hesitant (which I really want to happen because I would have the same concerns). I think its going to be a lot of Oliver watching Ray and Felicity interact and him reading into a lot more. I'm perfectly fine with that. I want friendship with Ray/Felicity.

 

For the love of all that is good and holy, do not repeat Tommy/Laurel/Oliver. It was so tacky.

[Password]

For the love of all that is good and holy, do not repeat Tommy/Laurel/Oliver. It was so tacky.

 

It. Was. Horrifying! I hated that Oliver did that to his best friend and that it just came out of nowhere. It's like they forgot there was a triangle and then decided to throw 3 relationships under the bus in the 3 episodes.

 

If Felicity does have sex, I think it'd be with Ray Ray. Shame I feel for Oliver because Ray is perfect on paper (I'm willingly forgetting about the first 2 episodes) but Oliver needs to buck up and stand up to the plate if he wants fairest Felicity. I'm not looking forward to seeing his pained, hurt expression if he sees them kiss, but I am looking forward to him potentially grabbing the bull by the horns and fighting for what he wants.

 

And YES! The premiere kiss was a taste of passionate things to come. I'm convinced.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Limbo

[ostentatious]

I think Ray will feel strongly for Felicity but she will not feel that way at all about him. I do think she'll end up liking him and sympathizing with him, but I definitely think he'll be in love with her by Chrismukkah.

 

I gotta admit I am partial to her having sex with Ray, though. Just because I'd like her to be with more than one person on this show, and once it's Oliver, it's over.

Edited October 30, 2014 by ostentatious

[Guest]

I'm still struggling to see how/when Ray/Felicity would become romantic. They are not even friends yet and we are coming up to episode five which I doubt will see much R/F interaction tbh. Then we have two episodes with The Flash crossover, so I don't see much happening there. I see them maybe reaching a friendly place in time for the winter hiatus but romance? Certainly not yet. And if it does happen in the middle of the season, I really don't see it being anything serious. Just a few dates maybe. Enough to show Oliver he can't wait around.

 

It's interesting to me that they had Felicity realize in The Flash that Barry was perfect for her but it wasn't enough. What makes Ray any different? He's clearly written as perfect for her on paper so I want to know exactly what changes to make things romantic. Until then I don't see it happening. Fingers crossed. I hate love triangles so much, especially on this show. They SUCK.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Guest

[Chaser]

There is also the Boss factor. I just don't see Felicity being comfortable with that.