Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

They put Laurel in a lose/lose place in the narrative from the get go.

 

In S1, you're supposed to empathize with her, but we're never shown what she's been through those five years, just told about stuff --  went to college, never dated anyone, mother left, alcoholic father, fuck buddies with Tommy. But we never saw any of that in flashbacks. And the thing about "show, don't tell" is not just about the writing, but it's also about how OUR BRAINS react to live action: you retain stuff you see a lot a lot A LOT more than the stuff you're only told about.

 

And hey, we're seeing ALL OF THE SHIT Oliver's going through in the flashbacks. So OF COURSE you're gonna transfer your empathy for Oliver. Right there in the pilot episode, even. And then the writers made it worse by choice, by leaving Laurel out of the A-plot not knowing Oliver's secret, or motivations, all season long.

 

In S2, they had the opportunity to play this kind of thing with Laurel all over again, but with Sara -- and they made the EXACT same narrative choices. We're watching Sara in the flashbacks, so we know the hell she went through, and we still don't know much of what Laurel has been through those 5 years. And sure, in present time she's lost Tommy, and is dealing with addiction, which is a terrible disease, but it's still unbalanced, because not only we're watching Oliver and Sara going through hell, but Laurel ISN'T AWARE of any of it. The audience knows so much more than Laurel that imo it's impossible to try and see it from her POV, because her POV is like, 1/8th of the audience's.

 

And those were dumb narrative choices the writers could have avoided the second time around, and they didn't.

[tarotx]

Was going to post this in reply in the public appearance thread but it didn't really fit. Maybe it does here...

I think Sara is going to in a place where life doesn't matter. She can die or live but who cares. I think being Resurected plus having Laurel take over her life will be a cause of this. I can truely see this as a time to get this sister relationship as brutal and real. This relationship is damaged and these women have suffered from the conflict.

Sara is going to be angry at Thea, Malcolm, Laurel and will probably push Nyssa away. They won't know how much of their Sara remains but watching a women you care about suffer is not fun. It's scary and Sad.

Sara will feel different but be Sara. Like Buffy season 6 it will frustrate her to no end that what she is feeling isn't really some mystical side affect but anger and depression. If these writers knew how to write this story it could really be powerful on Arrow and LOT.

I want Laurel to use Sara's pain and her aknowkedgement of her own closed offness the past 8 years, since the betrayal and loss began, as a source of needing to help not just as a fighter but as an empowering women crusader. Helping Thea as well since Thea and Sara were used and abused by Malcolm and the LP. The show has a chance to fix Laurel as a character who other ladies look up too. I hope they don't waste it.

Laurel needs to forgive Sara and Oliver for real and start searching for her own true purpose and identity. The past 3 seasons she's just been holding on and then copping Sara and Oliver's life instead of finding Laurel.

Edited July 13, 2015 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

The issue is Laurel hasn't grown or evolved as character in 3 seasons. She's still the same angry character that doesn't do much (storywise) she was in Season 1.

 

Slapping a mask on her face was just putting a duct tape on something, it doesn't fix the problem. We didn't see her growth or at least see it on screen like with Thea. We saw her not wanting to be a victim anymore and wanting to do something about it, much like we saw with Sara (and from what I'm hearing will be seeing again with Sara). Maybe it's because we haven't seen Laurel go through something like they did. I know they say her drinking problem was her island, but that was such a half assed afterthought of a storyline that most of the time I wouldn't even know she had a problem. During her DUI arrest, she acted so completely sober that I figured it was a set up by Blood or something. Then the one time she did act drunk, it was because she poisoned by Nyssa to get Sara's attention. So that had nothing to do with her storyline. 

 

They like to tell us about Laurel's supposed growth in interviews, but I don't think much of it was shown on screen. And yes, Laurel is not as hated as she was in s1 and s2. But she's still not a popular character, I think most people are just resigned to her being around rather than liking her character. It's like well if she's going to be there I'll try not to hate her as much, but I'm still not gong to like her. I don't thinks she's gained many new die hard fans. I still only see the same people singing her praises. 

[statsgirl]

Sara appeared as the Canary and said "No woman should have to suffer at the hands of men."  So not only was she a kickass fighter, she was a hero protecting the weak.

 

Laurel said she fights because it's the only thing that quells the fire inside her, and then she took her sister's costume and name. 

 

Which character are you going to root for?  And that's even without Laurel's anger at Oliver and Sara, and her mother for having hope Sara is still alive, and her father for falling into a bottle when his daughter died, and Tommy for daring to want to date her.

 

I did always see Sara as more of a lone wolf than a team player. I think she is able to integrate herself better into a team because she is a selfless person. I think Sara has some personal issues with trust and relying on others which makes it hard for to be a "team player". I also think she has spent a significant amount of time since the Gambit where she had to be self-reliant, independent & running her own missions, so having to comply to the team or OQ's leadership was an adjustment for her. It will be interesting to see how she operates within LoT which is a team made of rather independent spirits, unlike TA which was more team oriented.

 

Laurel has problem integrating into the team because she is more self-absorbed at baseline. Even if LL has a generous always saving the world personality (or so they are always trying to tell us), she is still very much its all about me in her execution of her day to day. I honestly don't see how she is going to be a natural addition to TA because she seems to all about ME to be about wanting to be part of the Team. I sorta hope they keep some of her operations separate from TA, because it just feels more organic to me that she would operate as more of a collaboration with TA and not an actual team member of TA.

This x 100.  Laurel isn't a team player; she never was.  That is why I liked Roy in the Arrow cave, and I think I'll like Thea too, but I'm dreading Laurel.  Even Ray would have been a better fit.

 

I really hope MG and WM can find a way to fit Laurel into the show organically and not have her in the lair giving orders to Diggle and Felicity again.

 

If they do change Laurel's reaction? Then I wouldn't put it past them to put more arrows in Sara by showing her "ungratefully" responding to Laurel's affection by a "you stole my life". (Except that imo, some people in the audience would wholeheartedly agree, LOL).

I hope I'm wrong because I want to enjoy Sara if she's ever back on Arrow and I won't be able to if her relationship with Laurel isn't more balanced and genuine.

 

I hope that they value Sara and need her in the new show too much to do that.  At this point, I think they've got all the value that they can out of Laurel -- those who wanted to see her become the Black Canary have their wish and as a character she's not going to bring in new eyeballs to the show unlike Diggle or Olicity or Neal McDonough, so hopefully they won't hurt other elements of the show to showcase Laurel.

 

It really doesn't matter how much KC works out or even trains.  Caity Lotz, like Amell, is naturally athletic.  Reflexes, awareness of body position, body type/muscle fiber, etc.

CL is more naturally muscular (when I saw gymnapst Ellie Black at the Pan Am games, I thought of CL)..

 

But KC competed in rhythmic gymnasts when she was younger so you'd think she would be good at the grace of BC's fights.

[AyChihuahua]

The thing is, Sara MATTERS now. Before, she was basically just a plot point for Laurel/Oliver, and a BC precursor. Then they killed her, and everyone freaked out. Now, she's a large part of the reason there's a spinoff. That's really huge. That's as big as EBR going from one-shot bit part to primary love interest/de facto leading lady. They can't crap all over either the character or the actress now, because neither is pointless or powerless anymore. It's a pretty big power shift.

I'd heard that KC was into rhythmic gymnastics as a kid, but there's a huge difference between that and what Caity Lotz does every day, basically for fun. Caity is a pretty astounding athlete. It's not KC's fault that she's not, it's just a fact of life. Another reason, IMO, KC was miscast. BC is supposed to be one of the best martial artists in the world, and neither Laurel Lance nor KC can pull that off.

[EmilyBettFan]

Exactly. Caity Lotz basically does what she's trained to do everyday. KC only does it when Arrow is starting to film and she doesn't do the same things that Caity does. There's no high kicks hitting the bad guys. There's no real hand to hand combat like Caity did.

[apinknightmare]

Exactly. Caity Lotz basically does what she's trained to do everyday. KC only does it when Arrow is starting to film and she doesn't do the same things that Caity does. There's no high kicks hitting the bad guys. There's no real hand to hand combat like Caity did.

 

We have no idea what KC does on a daily basis.

[Chaser]

I always laugh when I remember that KC did rhythmic gymnastics because I just remember Kim Manners talking about how uncoordinated she was on Supernatural. I guess somethings don't translate.

 

I am curious to see how they write the Sara and Laurel relationship. Sara and LOT will be the priority.

[Sakura12]

I think what they meant is we know that Caity's been dancing since she was little and was a professional dancer, then we've seen vids of her break dancing and doing parkor. We saw her do two rungs on the Salmon Ladder. We've seen her tweet about staying active in-between shooting Arrow during S2. She joined a new martial arts school before she knew about LoT (that's she's still in, she tweeted about yesterday). We know Caity stays active in her everyday life, not just for the show. It seems she comes from an athletic and active family, her mother used be Dolphin Trainer at Seaworld and she tweeted about going snowboarding with her dad. 

 

We don't know if KC does the same. We do know she stays active in the fashion industry though. 

[tarotx]

KC really trained this off season so I hope she can at least make the transition into the body double more believable. That's all I expect from an actor. Though Laurel's backstory still is weak for BC.

Caity does make the transition look believable and more since she is well trained. She's just a natural and trains her ass off. And Sara has a great reimagined BC backstory.

[apinknightmare]

I think what they meant is we know that Caity's been dancing since she was little and was a professional dancer, then we've seen vids of her break dancing and doing parkor. We saw her do two rungs on the Salmon Ladder. We've seen her tweet about staying active in-between shooting Arrow during S2. She joined a new martial arts school before she knew about LoT (that's she's still in, she tweeted about yesterday). We know Caity stays active in her everyday life, not just for the show. It seems she comes from an athletic and active family, her mother used be Dolphin Trainer at Seaworld and she tweeted about going snowboarding with her dad. 

 

We don't know if KC does the same. We do know she stays active in the fashion industry though. 

 

 

I understand what the person meant. Caity is physical, she's been doing this stuff her whole life, that's great for her, she's a natural. She comes off very believable on screen. We don't know what Katie does to train, but she doesn't have the same physique as Caity and no matter what she does, she'll never look the same. The comparisons don't do anything but devolve into some kind of weird body shaming on Katie for not being able to do the same things Caity can, and it's gross IMO. 

[Chaser]

CL physicality was a bonus for the role, but it's Sara's backstory that sells her as BC for me. I can't rag on KC for not being a real like matarial artist, that is what stunt doubles are for. That being said, they either need to up their game on the filming or get KC a new double. It ws painful this year.

Edited July 15, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

CL physicality was a bonus for the role, but it's Sara's backstory that sells her as BC for me. I can't rag on KC for not being a real like matarial artist, that is what stunt doubles are for. That being side, they either need to up their game on the filming or get KC a new double. It ws painful this year.

I'm not ragging on her. It's not her fault that she wasn't born athletic and coordinated. I am incredibly uncoordinated, and it's not my fault that I am as likely to punch myself in the face as an assailant. However, it's a reason she was miscast, and will, IMO, never be believable in the BC aspect of the role. And for me, it's not as simple as saying well, that's the stunt person's job, bc it's everything physical the character does, not just the fighting. KC doesn't even walk like a badass martial artist. Plus the stunt person can't do everything, and the more they have the stunt person do, the more difficult it is to suspend disbelief.

[Velocity23]

The stunt woman is the same as it was for Caity, Katrina and Jessica.

[Chaser]

The stunt woman is the same as it was for Caity, Katrina and Jessica.

Really??

[tangerine95]

The stunts this year were not as good as in seasons 1 and 2 overall but it was the most noticeable for Laurel.Just that scene where they're fighting in NP you could see her stunt double like 5 times.I agree with people who said its not about her doing her own stunts as much as the way she stands and moves her body in the costume.She walks more like a model then a fighter and it makes it even harder to believe her as BC.

[Morrigan2575]

The stunt woman is the same as it was for Caity, Katrina and Jessica.

And Emily.

I think Willa and Rila had the same stunt woman but it wasn't Atlin(?)

Edited July 15, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[Velocity23]

I think Emily has her own stunt woman since S2. The wife of Simon Burnett, who is Stephens stunt man

[Morrigan2575]

Ah, thanks. I thought she still used Atlin (I keep screwing her name up)

[BkWurm1]

KC really trained this off season so I hope she can at least make the transition into the body double more believable. That's all I expect from an actor. Though Laurel's backstory still is weak for BC.

Caity does make the transition look believable and more since she is well trained. She's just a natural and trains her ass off. And Sara has a great reimagined BC backstory.

Per KC's interviews not only did she continue her training on her own like with the weights and kickboxing but the show put her in other specific training programs  in the hopes of making her fighting on the show as realistic as possible.  I only heard in in one interview but she definitely seemed to say that the show runners were trying to up her skill level so she could do more of her own fighting sequences.  KC seems positive she can kick anyone's ass in real life (and said it over and over and over)

[AyChihuahua]

KC seems positive she can kick anyone's ass in real life (and said it over and over and over)

Yeah, that one quote from her about how she's been training awhile now...I think she was saying she thinks she's as good as Caity now. And she thinks she can easily do the salmon ladder. Okay?

[EmilyBettFan]

I wasn't body shaming her. All I was saying is that we don't see her posting videos of herself training. We only see her training when Arrow starts again. That's all I meant. If she knew she was going to be BC from the beginning then where were all the training pics then?

[BkWurm1]

Yeah, that one quote from her about how she's been training awhile now...I think she was saying she thinks she's as good as Caity now. And she thinks she can easily do the salmon ladder. Okay?

Yeah, she's basing her belief she can do the salmon ladder on something SA said about if she could do three pull ups, she could do the salmon ladder but I don't think SA explained it quite right. 

[apinknightmare]

I wasn't body shaming her. All I was saying is that we don't see her posting videos of herself training. We only see her training when Arrow starts again. That's all I meant. If she knew she was going to be BC from the beginning then where were all the training pics then?

 

I didn't say you were body shaming her, I said that the conversation of Caity vs Katie usually devolves into some kind of body shaming because Katie can't do the same things as Caity. 

 

Why would she have trained in the beginning when she was still supposed to be a lawyer? She could've been told that her "evolution" was going to be shown on screen, and that she should hold off bulking up until it was time, we don't know. I mean, I think Laurel absolutely sucks, but I'm not going to criticize KC when I don't know what she was being told behind the scenes. It also seems like a lot of the cast (SA, DR, etc) don't go hard in their workouts until right before the season starts - they even tweet about it. Caity's obviously really into parkour and martial arts and whatnot, and it seems like she does that year 'round. Good for her. 

[Sakura12]

Yeah the salmon ladder is not easy. Even on Ninja Warrior, only 3 women have done it.

[Starfish35]

Well she may be able to. Did you see her arms in some of those interview videos? I don't like Laurel at all, and I doubt that's going to change any time soon, but I'm not going to deny KC's strength training looks like it's paying off.

[Sakura12]

It takes much more then arm strength to do the salmon ladder. Especially for women, they need a really strong core, leg strength and the arm strength.

Caity was only able to do 2 rungs with a week for practice. Brandon Routh did only 3. So while KC has impressive arms she needs much more to actually do the ladder.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

I doubt she's only been building up her arm muscles - I just said that's what I noticed in the interviews. *shrug* I'm not going to say she can absolutely do it, but I'm not going to say she absolutely can't either.

[Sakura12]

Have you seen the women on Ninja Warrior? They look very impressive and they can't do it. They probably trained much more then an actress does.

[apinknightmare]

I doubt she's only been building up her arm muscles - I just said that's what I noticed in the interviews. *shrug* I'm not going to say she can absolutely do it, but I'm not going to say she absolutely can't either.

 

 

Seriously. Who knows if she can or not? I wouldn't be surprised if she could do at least a rung or two. 

[Starfish35]

I didn't think we were talking about her doing the entire thing. I figured we (and KC) were talking about doing a few rungs like Caity and Brandon did. If she said somewhere that she thinks she can do the whole thing...ok yeah. But I didn't see that or understand it that way.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

Well if she thinks she can do, why doesn't she just do it? It's not like she needs Arrow to do it. Just go to a parkour gym in Vancouver and have someone film her. No one is stopping her. 

 

If she just wants to do it on Arrow, how much more can Laurel copy from Sara? Even when Brandon did it, it just seemed like they wanted to show how similar he was to Oliver. 

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[apinknightmare]

Thinking you can do something, and feeling the need to prove it by having someone film you are two different things? Maybe she doesn't care all that much. And if she did post something like that, she'd be reamed for it anyway. 

[wonderwall]

...But it's not just Katie who said that she could do the Salmon Ladder, Willa Holland also said that she could so maybe she can? But then again, what does it matter? Movement/fighting choreography and being able to do the salmon ladder are two different things. KC is strong, but I still don't think she's graceful enough to do the fight scenes without using a stunt double

[NumberCruncher]

Does it matter if we see her do it or not? Was Black Canary even really known for her sheer physical strength in the comic books? I'm not sure this particular feature is something I need to see to prove how capable a crimefighter she is but YMMV.

[Sakura12]

Not if she can do it. 

 

She keeps bringing it up in interviews even when no one asks about it. If she's going to talk about it then she should put the money where her mouth is. For me if you're going to brag about doing something then let me see you do it, not just talk about it. 

 

I thought Willa sad no to doing the Salmon Ladder when they asked her about it?

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[wonderwall]

I thought Willa sad no to doing the Salmon Ladder when they asked her about it?

 

Willa said she couldn't do it, but she pointed to Katie and she said that she could do it right this second if you asked her. Katie didn't respond to that though, I think she just smiled.

[Sakura12]

I'm just saying the Ninja Warrior Salmon Ladder has 5 rungs and only 2 women have finished all 5. And one of them is a Stunt Women like Atlin that finished Caity's run. The other was Kacy Catanzaro.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[Chaser]

KC volunteered that she could do it if asked. But when she was at the round table they asked about the salmon ladder and she back tracked and said she actually hadn't tried it because the ladder was on set or something. But SA told her if she could do a pull up she could do the ladder so she is confident she can do.

I have a feeling Thea's going to be the most impressive at the start of the season. I imagine they wanted to show another Queen on ladder. Passing the mantle in Oliver's absence.

I'm curious if Emily could do it.

[apinknightmare]

The women on Ninja Warrior also complete a whole obstacle course before they get to the salmon ladder. It is not out of the realm of possibility that KC could grab the bar and go up a couple of rungs. 

[wonderwall]

I'm just saying the Ninja Warrior Salmon Ladder has 5 rungs and only 2 women have finished all 5. And one of them is a Stunt Women like Atlin that finished Caity's run.

Look, as much as I don't like to spend my time defending an actress I don't really like, I don't think it matters whether she can do all 5 rungs. She could do two and the scene could cut to another person. 

 

That being said, I'm not interested in seeing Laurel do the salmon ladder because I'd rather watch something else just like I'm sure others on this site would prefer too. So Laurel being able to do the Salmon Ladder is all a moot point. 

[AyChihuahua]

If you say you can "do" the salmon ladder, it should be the whole thing. Otherwise it'd be like me saying I can "do" a marathon, because I can jog a mile.

[Chaser]

I don't think it matters either way. I think KC is really proud of the work she put into her body and wants to show it off. People spent a lot of time talking about how skinny she was in S2 maybe she wants people to talk about how she buffed up in S4.

But I do laugh that she backtracked once asked directly.

[Sakura12]

If you say you can "do" the salmon ladder, it should be the whole thing. Otherwise it'd be like me saying I can "do" a marathon, because I can jog a mile.

 

Exactly. Saying you can do it means you can complete it. If she said she thinks she can do 2 to 3 rungs on Salmon Ladder. I would think maybe she can. Caity makes sure to say she did 2 rungs, even BR cops to doing only 3. The way she's said makes it seem like she thinks she can do the whole thing which in Arrow's case is 10 rungs. 

 

Now I want to see if she can do it (not on Arrow though because Sara already did it). It is an impressive feat for women. Jessie Graff did with her hands facing different directions. I wonder if that helps.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Sakura12

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think it matters either way. I think KC is really proud of the work she put into her body and wants to show it off. People spent a lot of time talking about how skinny she was in S2 maybe she wants people to talk about how she buffed up in S4.

But I do laugh that she backtracked once asked directly.

It matters to me, because breezily claiming to be able to do something exceptional if you can't cheapens the work and ability of those who actually can.

Edited July 16, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[quarks]

This whole conversation is reminding me that Oliver - OLIVER! - abandoned the salmon ladder in its time of need, right after it was assaulted by the incompetence of the Starling City police force - to go get beaten up and kill people in the League of Assassins. I can only imagine how broken the salmon ladder felt - particularly when its only other hope, Barry's cosmic treadmill, turned its attention to Barry and Barry's black hole issues. I mean, really, treadmill, you have a salmon ladder right there - ok, hundreds of miles away, but emotionally right there - and you focus on Barry. What were you thinking?

 

I feel this is a relationship that's going to need some major time and attention from a shirtless Oliver AND a camera. Fortunately, I have faith that - at least in this case - Felicity will be understanding.

[dtissagirl]

I legit couldn't care less if KC does her own stunts or not. Barrowman doesn't lift an arm. Colton didn't to any of his. I just need the stunt folks to figure out how to make better transitions between Atlin and KC so that I can keep my disbelief well suspended. Same as I needed for Matt Nable and his stunt guy, whose face is probably more familiar to me than Nable's, he spent so much time facing the camera.

[quarks]

I legit couldn't care less if KC does her own stunts or not. Barrowman doesn't lift an arm. Colton didn't to any of his. I just need the stunt folks to figure out how to make better transitions between Atlin and KC so that I can keep my disbelief well suspended. Same as I needed for Matt Nable and his stunt guy, whose face is probably more familiar to me than Nable's, he spent so much time facing the camera.

 

Answering in the Behind the Scenes thread.

[dtissagirl]

However, that episode did give us an exclusively Felicity story - a mother who is there purely for her story, her home, her flashbacks and a bad guy who was there specifically for Felicity. That's a lot more than we ever got before, and it was a lovely change to have Oliver there in support of her storyline rather than the other way around. I thought that reverse-dynamic worked really well and they should use it more, partly to give more Real Story to Felicity, and partly to take some of the pressure off Stephen (and Oliver's storyline). 23 episodes is a lot - there's more than enough time to give the secondary characters some personal attention without losing the main focus of the show. They don't need to do it in Very Special Episodes either - they should thread it throughout the whole season in smaller chunks, just like they do for Oliver.

I think I never love Oliver more than when he's playing the supportive narrative role for Diggle and Felicity. That's when I feel I get real insight into who he really is. Because whenever the burden of carrying the story shifts a little bit from him to the others, he turns full on I AM HERE FOR YOU GUYS, WHATEVER YOU NEED. And now thinking about it, it wasn't just with D&F. His support of Sara in early S2 was lovely, and so was his role in The Flash side of the crossover.

 

What those temporary shifts in narrative role do is they make all of Oliver's relationships with these folks more balanced.

 

My hugeass problem mid-S3 was that when Oliver was stripped off the narrative limelight to make Laurel and Ray happen, Oliver wasn't playing the supporting role for either of them. He was kept separate from their stories completely. Sure, they gave the support cape to Felicity, but that just made it even more glaring to me that Oliver was AWOL from huge chunks of story beats. And this causes a cognitive problem: if the de facto protagonist of the story isn't interested in someone else's story, why should I be?

[kismet]

My hugeass problem mid-S3 was that when Oliver was stripped off the narrative limelight to make Laurel and Ray happen, Oliver wasn't playing the supporting role for either of them. He was kept separate from their stories completely. Sure, they gave the support cape to Felicity, but that just made it even more glaring to me that Oliver was AWOL from huge chunks of story beats. And this causes a cognitive problem: if the de facto protagonist of the story isn't interested in someone else's story, why should I be?

Very pertinent question... I hope the writers don't tempt it again this season. Even when they had Teen Arrow with TQ, RH & Sin, OQ/Hood felt like it was a supportive narrative & that was just with them focusing on finding him. SL, JD & FS have never deviated too far from OQ narrative & attention, I hope the same continues this season. Those relationships actually always seemed to ground his narrative journey. I'm inclined in this moment to say that one of the reasons the flashbacks felt so disconnect this season was that as cool as Maseo & Tatsu were, I never invested in OQ's relationship with them. S1 the FB could be unique story to themselves it fit the narrative, but even then Slade & Shado seemed ground OQ. When the added SL into the FB it further made us invested in OQ's narrative, as well as SL both past & present.

 

With LL, OQ's lack of attention span has been an ongoing issue since s2, they need to fix it - but mostly I think they need to fix her character. It's s4, by now they should be able to make her work or let her go. She had potential, its about time they use it or lose it. She is most definitely a prime example of if OQ himself is not paying any attention to her both in story and on the screen, why should I? With Ray, I will never understand why they kept him on the outside for so long. He just seemed so much better when they integrated him. I feel like they might have learned their lesson with Ray, with the way some of the interviews were going. I hope they keep that in mind with some of the new characters coming on board.