Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Menrva]

I'm tired of reading fan complaints that S3 was too melodramatic and more 'soap opera-y' than previous seasons.  Unless you want a show that's only about action, fighting and stunts, there's going to be relationships - and relationships not only make the characters three-dimensional, but also create drama.  Let's compare seasons...

 

Someone returns from the dead - S1, S2, S3

Love triangle - S1, S3 (even S2 arguably)

Sexual sister-swapping - S1, S2

Infidelity - S1, S2

Kidnapping of loved one - S1, S2, S3

Death of parent - S1, S2

Death of sibling - S1, S3

Death of child - S1, S3

Death of spouse - S1, S3

Death of lover - S1, S2, S3

Suicide - S1

Alcohol/drug addiction - S1, S2

Heartbreak - S1, S2, S3

Someone seeks revenge - S1, S2, S3

Someone cries - S1, S2, S3

Someone throws a temper tantrum - S1, S2, S3

Someone dies saving loved one - S1, S2, S3

Someone is betrayed - S1, S2, S3

One-night stand - S1, S2

Sex with loved one - S1, S2, S3

Angry mistress of married man - S2

Secret love child - S2, S3

Drive off into the sunset - S3

Family relationship drama - S1, S2, S3

Sibling relationship drama - S1, S2, S3

Romantic relationship drama - S1, S2, S3

Shocking plot twists - S1, S2, S3

Don't forget unexpected appearance of identical twin of dead lover! - S3

Classic soap opera fodder, right there.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Menrva

[AyChihuahua]

I gave up on Felicity/Ray when they had him do the salmon ladder shirtless for no reason and gave him Oliver's "save my city" intro to be his speech at the Palmer Inc press conference.

Seriously, try to imagine a real life modern day CEO of a major US corporation doing shirtless exercises in his office during work hours in front of a female subordinate.  The sexual harassment lawsuit would be filed in four seconds.

 

Oh, and giving her a sexy dress in the right size and lending her a $10M necklace to wear to go out with you that evening.  Sorry, the lawsuit would be filed (and settled) in TWO seconds.

Edited July 24, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[lexicon]

The whole thing with Ray was just way too heavy handed.He came of as creepy and annoying instead of charming.And I was one of those people who were happy Felicity was getting a LI in when they announced it.They did a good job with Barry,both in setting him up for a spinoff and with his relationship with Felicity.I don't get how they could fail so much with Ray.And its not even that only MG was at fault,AK wrote him just as bad in the Flash crossover.

 

I know there's a lot of BR love but for me, he bore some responsibility for the fact that RP came across as a creepy rather than the perfect Prince Charming that Arrow seemed desperate to convince me that he was.

 

IMO the problem lay not just in the conceptualization of his character, i.e the perfect billionaire boss/bf who never took no for an answer and bought insanely expensive presents to tempt you to attend business dinners (yuck) but in BR's portrayal of him as well. It wasn't just his much maligned 'crazy eyes' but the fact that in his hands RP came off as arrogant and douchey instead of quirky and brilliant. I get that the aim was for the character to be brilliant, awkward and somewhat lacking in social awareness but in the hands of EBR, Grant Gustin and Carlos Valdes those traits come off as endearing and charming, not so with BR's version of RP. 

 

As always, YMMV.

Edited July 24, 2015 by lexicon

[Scribbles]

Season 3 ended with the issue it began with unresolved.  How could Oliver Queen be Oliver and a hero?  In the finale he chose to be with Felicity and not be a hero, he spent the rest of the season trying to be a hero and not being with Felicity.  The same issue threatens their relationship going into season 4. 

 

In 3-17 the conversation between Oliver and Felicity upon him finding out from her that Ray was trying to be a hero as well should have forced the issue.  When she told him that she deserved to be with someone who wasn't afraid to be happy, the tie to his final words in the finale (I'm happy) was huge.  Now we have Oliver who can be happy, but to have Oliver and Felicity continue, we need him to be able to be happy and a hero.  That is the relationship foil entering season 4.  It is my hope they resolve it quickly and definitively.

 

On a sidenote:  Any guesses on what saucy quip Oliver will have about a tiny Ray?  With Barry it was "they will card him at the bar", that provided that last jealousy laden poke. 

[dtissagirl]

Season 3 ended with the issue it began with unresolved.  How could Oliver Queen be Oliver and a hero?  In the finale he chose to be with Felicity and not be a hero, he spent the rest of the season trying to be a hero and not being with Felicity.  The same issue threatens their relationship going into season 4.

 

Answering the spoiler thread as to not spoil the innocents.

[Morrigan2575]

Season 3 ended with the issue it began with unresolved. How could Oliver Queen be Oliver and a hero? In the finale he chose to be with Felicity and not be a hero, he spent the rest of the season trying to be a hero and not being with Felicity. The same issue threatens their relationship going into season 4.

S3 ended with Oliver realizing he didn't want to be The Arrow anymore and didn't know how to be Oliver Queen. In essence as someone pointed out a few months ago, he chose neither Oliver Queen nor the Arrow and, instead chose a 3rd option. The season ended with Oliver trying to find a new way/person to be, AKA The Green Arrow.

I would assume the end result of his soul searching is someone who is a combination of both Oliver Queen and The Arrow.

This certainly seems to be supported by the 401 title Green Arrow

Edited July 25, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

Season 3 ended with the issue it began with unresolved. How could Oliver Queen be Oliver and a hero? In the finale he chose to be with Felicity and not be a hero, he spent the rest of the season trying to be a hero and not being with Felicity. The same issue threatens their relationship going into season 4.

 

I felt that the finale did mostly resolve it.  In Felicity's speech to him before he faced Ra's for the final time she pointed out that the Arrow couldn't defeat Ra's.  That Oliver Queen couldn't defeat Ra's.  Then she told him to be someone else and that his feelings for other people were a strength.  In using them to fight to live, I think we already have seen that Oliver has the issue resolved of if he could be both the mask and the man.  The issue at the end of 3 was he didn't want to be that mask, didn't think it was an option and that he wanted to get to know himself better, this new person that could find a balance.  The question IMO only remains for Oliver to WANT to find a balance, not if he could anymore. 

[Scribbles]

  The question IMO only remains for Oliver to WANT to find a balance, not if he could anymore. 

It is funny, I see it reversed.  He now wants to find the balance (which was a huge shift), but can he do it?

[wingster55]

^ I agree (and have said so here)..there's no balance. And simply dating Felicity won't be enough (even if he dates her AND is the Arrow), since he's been in relationships while fighting crime before. 

[dtissagirl]

I think dating Felicity and living a normal boring life is enough for Oliver. I don't think it's enough for *the audience*, because that's not what the show is about. So they'll have to figure out a way to get Oliver back in the suit, but I don't think it's a balance problem for Oliver. He pretty much figured out what he wants from life.

And spoilers indicate retirement boring life won't be enough for Felicity, which: YAY.

[wonderwall]

I'm really loving this.

 

Felicity lived that boring normal life before Oliver. She was the quirky IT girl with no social life. She probably had a routine down and there was just zero excitement after Cooper. But just as soon as Oliver came into her life, it became exciting, and exhilarating, and everything Felicity wanted/needed, so it makes sense why Felicity wouldn't want to going back to the quiet boring life. 

 

On the other hand,  Oliver's life was anything but boring. Even before the island he lived a loud, lively life filled with drama and angst. Then the island happened and his life was just constantly in danger. So after twenty-something years of living a loud/raucous life, it makes sense why Oliver would prefer quiet and boring for some time. 

[tangerine95]

I love that Felicity is going to be the one to want to go back to the hero life,its what I always thought would happened too if they quit.

I agree that Oliver did solve his identity crisis in the finale its just a matter of finding balance when they get back.Which ofcourse he will since the show is not subtle in saying that its the right path,even using Diggle as a example of having a life,a family and fighting crime.

I don't think him being green arrow is gonna be a reason for olicity breaking up.His other relationships fell apart not because he was the arrow but because they were based on things like trying to save/change them,guilt,constant lying and a desire to go back to the way things were before the island.IMO Felicity is the first realtionship where he is not lying,she knows exactly who he is and he's with her simply because he wants to be and she makes him happy.

Edited July 26, 2015 by tangerine95

[dtissagirl]

All of the talk in the BtS thread a few days ago, about what if Laurel/Oliver had worked, and what if Tommy lived, made me realize something in hindsight: when the show killed the Laurel/Oliver relationship, it set up a chain of events that ultimately also changed a big theme they planned to explore in Oliver's hero journey, and how his relationships would influence the journey.

 

The pilot sets up both Laurel/Oliver and Oliver becoming a hero as something ~meant to be~. As DESTINY in all caps. Laurel/Oliver's meant-to-be-ness is represented by that darn picture; Oliver being destined to heroism is represented by how Raisa sees Oliver, exemplified in a very pointed scene:

 

RAISA: You are different. Not like you to read a book.

OLIVER: I missed you, Raisa.

RAISA: No kitchen on the island.

OLIVER: No. No friends either. Hey. Thank you. Do I really seem different?

RAISA: No. You're still a good boy.

OLIVER: Oh, I think we both know I wasn't.

RAISA : But a good heart.

OLIVER: I hope so. I want to be the person you always told me I could be.
 

Making educated guesses here, but I think the original plan was to tie the Laurel/Oliver romance to Oliver's hero's journey with the destiny theme. If L/O had worked out, Laurel would have developed a closer relationship with The Hood while they'd be fighting crime together, and the story probably would have done the Lois & Clark triangle for two thing for a while. And when Laurel finally learned Oliver and the vigilante were the same person, her reaction would be of the "I always knew you had it in you" kind, because the original premise was that Laurel had seen something greater in pre-island Oliver -- the same thing that Raisa saw. The idea being that heroism was something that had always been inside of Oliver, hidden under a gigantic pile of playboy-billionaireness, but Laurel [and Raisa] had ~always known~ he was meant for greatness. DESTINY, in all caps.

 

But when L/O failed, the whole destiny motif was scrapped from the hero's journey as well. Which I'm particularly thankful for, because DESTINY in all caps stories have no real appeal to me. Unless they're set up to mock it [hello, Buffy]. Destiny, fate, soulmates, written on the stars -- those are story tropes I can only embrace if they're subverted. And I don't think Arrow would have gone that route -- I think they would do it straight, and I would have probably parted ways with the show by mid-S1 as *not my thing*.

 

Dumping the destiny theme meant the show had to also backtrack the idea that anyone who knew Oliver pre-island would become "his people" in present time. The relationships influencing Oliver's hero's journey would not be the ones from his past, because the idea that someone had seen something ~more~ in him before Lian Yu was tossed. It helped that Raisa was was gone from the show after the pilot, and it also helped that every pre-island flashback reinforced the idea that Oliver was a womanizing  entitled brat with little to no redeeming qualities. There was no hero hiding under that pile of douche.

 

Enter the new people, Diggle and Felicity. Who not only didn't know pre-island Oliver -- so they come to the narrative without preconceptions of him -- but they both also quickly learn the truth about Oliver in present time. They become "his people" by seeing him in the present as a much truer self than the one he showed old friends and family, and by making the choice to join his crusade with eyes open. No fate, no destiny, no "I always knew you were meant for greatness", nothing even remotely ~meant to be~. Dig and Felicity both see Oliver's flaws *as a vigilante* from the get go, and that is what kickstarts the evolution from Hood to Arrow [to Green Arrow]. And so, what fueled Oliver's hero journey post pilot wasn't destiny. It was the actions and relationships he built in present time with his team, that got him from killer to vigilante to hero, all showed instead of told, and with not a hint of ~written on the stars~ in sight.

 

Which is how I happen to like my hero's journeys, please and thank you.

[Chaser]

Posted a response in the Laurel Thread.

[TyranAmiros]

I wanted to follow up on this, because it ties into the bigger problem the show has had with relationships.  I mentioned in another some months back in the Laurel thread that I think Laurel would have worked with the Comics GA but the Batman-esque direction the show has gone in has rendered that relationship ineffectual.  The change was never really about love story--the change was to Oliver's character direction first, his relationships merely were a side effect.

 

I think the original intent was to have Oliver flirt and have affairs with a number of women over the first few seasons.  We'd get the occasional "end game/destiny" comment--like Booth and Brennan on Bones--but both Oliver and Laurel would have dated other people, seriously in Laurel's case, over several seasons.  We'd get McKennas and Helenas--probably a lot more one-off stories where Oliver goes in to rescue a lady love.  But it would be made clear this was working toward not destiny exactly but chivalry, in line with much of the Robin Hood mythos: Oliver would have to earn Laurel's love, by committing proving his dedication to her. 

 

In the meantime, I think they would have built up the social crusader Laurel as a Marian figure.  As in Adam de la Halle's Le Jeu de Robin et Marion, she would be put into temptation situations where she had to prove her commitment to justice and what is right before Oliver changes for her.  This is actually what they started doing early in Season 1 in the Laurel-Quentin fights over "the Hood".  Laurel is generally right in her evaluations; it's just executed horribly--too much whiplash--until they drop the conceit.

 

I have no doubt the original intent was to contrast Tommy and Oliver.  Oliver would refuse temptation and mature into the hero, Tommy would fall for the temptation and start down the path toward arch-nemesis.   Laurel would play a central role here as the one who chooses Oliver and spurns Tommy, possibly setting him on his negative path. 

 

It all changed when they made Oliver less of a wannabe hero and more of a soldier.  And Stephen Amell refusing to play Oliver as a womanizer.  The obsessiveness over the list became a symbol of his PTSD than a guiding force for a crusade.  That picture of Laurel looked more like Wilson in Castaway and less of a saint card.  His scars and tattoos more memories of pain than trials by fire.  More Ryan Atwood (The OC) than Luke Skywalker.   The love triangle simply couldn't exist.  This Oliver would certainly go after Tommy--if Tommy were doing anything less than what Oliver believes Laurel deserves--but it wouldn't be in the form of a love triangle (look how quickly it petered out at the end of S1).

[AyChihuahua]

Does anyone have an in-show explanation for why RAG sent Felicity to Oliver to love up on him?  It gave Oliver something really great to hold onto during the attempted brainwashing (which I think Oliver would have resisted anyway, for all my issues with him he's never been remotely weak-willed), and I can't see any upside at all from RAG's perspective.  And it's not like he would want to give them something good, after all, he is evil.  I seriously picture Oliver cheerfully daydreaming about all the "I love you"s and fantastic sex while he's being tortured and isolated and being all "Meh, this isn't so bad, isolate me some more so I can concentrate on thinking about that thing she did with her tongue during round 2."

[Guest]

There's not much in-show explanation aside from Ra's being a manipulative bastard. Oliver finally gets to be with the woman he loves and then it's all taken away from him. At least that's how I viewed it.

 

I also highly doubt that it was Felicity's magical vagina which made Oliver impervious to brainwashing. If I remember correctly, it was stated earlier in the season in the flashbacks that Oliver has a high resistance to torture. Or maybe it was during s2. But he was being water boarded for info and they said he held out the longest they'd seen or something. IMO that suggests Oliver is resistant to those kinds of methods because he's been through it all before. 

[apinknightmare]

There's not much in-show explanation aside from Ra's being a manipulative bastard. Oliver finally gets to be with the woman he loves and then it's all taken away from him. At least that's how I viewed it.

 

I think that's exactly what it was, since when he was making his hard sell to Oliver about becoming Ra's he mentioned that he knew that Oliver was in love with a woman he couldn't have. Let him have her, then take her away. 

[AyChihuahua]

There's not much in-show explanation aside from Ra's being a manipulative bastard. Oliver finally gets to be with the woman he loves and then it's all taken away from him. At least that's how I viewed it.

 

I also highly doubt that it was Felicity's magical vagina which made Oliver impervious to brainwashing. If I remember correctly, it was stated earlier in the season in the flashbacks that Oliver has a high resistance to torture. Or maybe it was during s2. But he was being water boarded for info and they said he held out the longest they'd seen or something. IMO that suggests Oliver is resistant to those kinds of methods because he's been through it all before. 

I didn't say anything about a magical vagina, and I clearly stated that I thought he would have resisted it anyway, seeing as how way back in S1 when he was still Ollie in flashbacks he didn't give up Yao Fei's location under torture, even though he barely knew Yao Fei (and Yao Fei's first action, which I've never understood, was to shoot him with an arrow).  But if you're about to try to brainwash someone, giving him the moment of his dreams with the woman he truly loves seems like really terrible strategizing.

 

I guess the lettting-him-have-her-then-taking-her-away thing works as an in-show explanation, with the caveat that it shows how stupid RAG was and how little he knew Oliver.

Edited July 31, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

I thought Ra's was trying to show Felicity he can be magnanimous, since he told her his sob story, and he was ~allowing~ her to say good-bye to Oliver, because he hadn't had the same opportunity with his family.

[apinknightmare]

I thought Ra's was trying to show Felicity he can be magnanimous, since he told her his sob story, and he was ~allowing~ her to say good-bye to Oliver, because he hadn't had the same opportunity with his family.

 

Yeah, that could be it. I can't really remember what he told Felicity during his grand speech to her, haha.

[AyChihuahua]

I thought Ra's was trying to show Felicity he can be magnanimous, since he told her his sob story, and he was ~allowing~ her to say good-bye to Oliver, because he hadn't had the same opportunity with his family.

But why would he do that?  He's a POS rapist/wannabe rapist by proxy.  I think I like the give her/take her away explanation the best, even though it was totally stupid of him, because he was pretty much nothing but stupid all season.

 

As an aside, I don't see F/O's sex, even if it had been the only reason Oliver resisted brainwashing (which I do not think, at all) as a magical vagina moment.  I mean, it was the first, and probably the second and third and maybe fourth, time that these two people, who are each other's One True Love, have sex.  Sex is an extremely important part of a romantic relationship, so it was a huge deal for them.  So, of course, was Felicity telling him flat-out that she loved him.  Her thing with Ray was a magical vagina moment, but Oliver and Felicity's first time is the culmination of years of true love.  It's like something from Shakespeare, or maybe Wordsworth if he hadn't been such a prude. 

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think there's any super convincing reason for Ra's to tell Felicity to go to Oliver, except that the writers on this show don't like anyone (male or female, though particularly the latter) to take any action without someone first telling them they should. Because then their motivations can be spelled out for us! Hurray!

 

In-show, I think the best explanation is pretty much what's been given here. RAG is used to such unlimited power over everyone around him that he's basically fearless, and he 100% believes he'll be able to turn Oliver into Al Sahim, so he doesn't recognize the O/F relationship as a threat. So I equate that moment to his rare moments where he shows any sort of feeling for Nyssa (or, another example though we didn't see it: letting her relationship with Sara happen in the first place). It's like he likes to play human sometimes, as long as it doesn't impede his goals.

[dtissagirl]

But why would he do that?  He's a POS rapist/wannabe rapist by proxy.  I think I like the give her/take her away explanation the best, even though it was totally stupid of him, because he was pretty much nothing but stupid all season.

 

Well, he doesn't see himself as a rapist, or as evil. What I got from the scene was that he was granting Felicity a favor just because he could. And maybe to distract her too, because Felicity went to Ra's in the first place to tell him she was gonna find a way to stop him. So he dangled an Oliver-shaped carrot in front of Felicity, and she followed it.

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, the whole declaring war thing, which didn't go anywhere, at all.  I would have really liked a scene in 3.21 in which we see them discussing a plan to take down the LOA.  Preliminary planning would have been fine with me, and it didn't have to go anywhere since the whole thing was over in a few weeks anyway, but some discussion re getting their best friend/brother/one true love back would have been nice.  I mean, they didn't know about the brainwashing or city-destroying, so did they just think he was going to go ahead and be evil?  Or did they maybe think he'd eventually come back to them after defanging/taking down the LOA from the inside, even though they didn't know that was actually his plan?

 

My problem is that I tend to overthink television shows and character motivations once I get invested, and that just does not work for Arrow S3.  I think once S4 starts I'll forget about all this, assuming S4 is good.  Maybe I can chew on some of the lead paint chips Oliver was eating during the S2/S3 hiatus and lower my IQ enough to think it all just made sense.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, the whole declaring war thing, which didn't go anywhere, at all.  I would have really liked a scene in 3.21 in which we see them discussing a plan to take down the LOA.  Preliminary planning would have been fine with me, and it didn't have to go anywhere since the whole thing was over in a few weeks anyway, but some discussion re getting their best friend/brother/one true love back would have been nice.

 

 

That's the kind of thing that I need to use my knowledge of how external factors affect production, I guess. As a rule, scenes that lead nowhere are a big no-no. They happen sometimes, but it's almost always unintended. If I'm directing an episode, or if I'm editing an episode, and there's a scene that I know isn't gonna lead anywhere? I'd cut it without thinking twice.

[AyChihuahua]

What would the external factor be for that one?  Just that they wanted her to have something to say to RAG and that's the first thing they thought of?  Because it does seem like very poor storytelling to have a dramatic speech with zero payoff.

 

My favorite of your examples of external factors was re Oliver sticking Malcolm on Thea's couch against her express wishes.  Such a controlling, thoughtless, douchey move on Oliver's part...but the writers only did it because the show didn't want to pay to set up a set as Malcolm's apartment.  That is just totally pathetic.

[dtissagirl]

I was talking about Team Arrow having a scene planning to save Oliver in 3x21, that would have gone nowhere. Even if that scene was in the script, it would have been cut.

 

And Felicity did follow through on her speech to Ra's, when she drugged Oliver and then forced Diggle and Malcolm to help her try to escape.

 

but the writers only did it because the show didn't want to pay to set up a set as Malcolm's apartment.  That is just totally pathetic.

 

It's the reality of TV producing everywhere. Budgets are limited. And this kind of writing choices guided by external factors are everywhere. It's just that the magic of filmmaking makes them invisible to most people. And sure, bad writing ends up revealing  this stuff, but my experience is that if a scene was shot? There were external factors that affected it. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't see why they couldn't have discussed it when they were having dinner at Diggle's.  It didn't have to be its own scene, but she gave this big dramatic speech, and there was no payoff.  And for me, declaring war =/ drugging him and trying to sneak him out.  I would hope for something a bit more...warlike.

 

I'm mostly just happy it's over.

[dtissagirl]

They set up the dinner scene as defeatist because they wanted to contrast Team Arrow being all "Oliver's gone forever, let's toast fallen soldiers, woe" with PSYCH! turns out Oliver's actually in Starling City leading the LoA to capture Nyssa. Plus I thought that scene was a whole lot more about Dig and Felicity being there for Thea, than it was about Oliver, which I appreciated.

 

I mean. In theory I agree with you that Dig and Felicity would totally have a "so, how are we gonna get Oliver back?" moment three seconds after they left NP in 320. But since a follow through to that plan was not gonna be part of the story anyway, I get why it wasn't included in the first place.

[BkWurm1]

I thought Ra's was trying to show Felicity he can be magnanimous, since he told her his sob story, and he was ~allowing~ her to say good-bye to Oliver, because he hadn't had the same opportunity with his family.

I also assumed then that we were being shown a "Ra's is human too" moment which would have been a nice character enriching thing if later it wasn't revealed that he would go on to slaughter without a care everyone he'd ever known or loved by destroying the whole city making him not saying goodbye pointless.

Still, I always saw that confrontation between Felicity and Ra's as less about her vowing revenge than the writers wanting to continue to make the viewers wonder if Oliver joining the LoA won't be such a bad thing. Then I guess the brainwashing was supposed to be a "twist!"

[AyChihuahua]

They set up the dinner scene as defeatist because they wanted to contrast Team Arrow being all "Oliver's gone forever, let's toast fallen soldiers, woe" with PSYCH! turns out Oliver's actually in Starling City leading the LoA to capture Nyssa. Plus I thought that scene was a whole lot more about Dig and Felicity being there for Thea, than it was about Oliver, which I appreciated.

 

I mean. In theory I agree with you that Dig and Felicity would totally have a "so, how are we gonna get Oliver back?" moment three seconds after they left NP in 320. But since a follow through to that plan was not gonna be part of the story anyway, I get why it wasn't included in the first place.

But seriously, it would show that they cared.  I mean, I am so conflicted about Oliver now, because I loved him so before S3, but hated him for most of S3, but these are the people who love him most and they can't take two seconds of (on camera) time to discuss getting him back from metaphorical hell?  To me that is not a scene that goes nowhere, that's a necessary scene for the characters to be the characters.  Not ever scene or line in a scene has to be PLOT PLOT PLOT.

[apinknightmare]

They did try to get him out of it. Felicity drugged him and they attempted escape, and after that didn't work and Oliver said he was going to stay, Diggle encouraged him to just leave with them anyway (Diggle, outside Ra's Pier 1 compound: "Oliver, the jet's less than a mile away." Oliver: "Where are we gonna fly it to?"). Oliver stood firm in wanting to stay, so I'm not sure what good another scene would've done if they weren't going to do anything with it.  

Edited July 31, 2015 by apinknightmare

[kismet]

I sorta thought it might be a house rule. No Glocks on the table. No discussing plans to get OQ out of NP during dinnertime. I also think it was really soon since they last failed attempt, so maybe they were mentally regrouping.

 

Im with those that think Ras was having a human moment. I don't think Ras is purely evil or without a conscience. I think he knows how much he regrets not saying goodbye, so perhaps he wanted to give that to both FS & OQ. He is sick & twisted, but I think in his mind he saw it was a way to give something to his protege. He also knew that there was really no threat in them having a moment. Best case scenario, it help OQ feel more on board with everything. Worst case scenario, I bet Ras had some sick methods up his sleeve to twist that moment & FS's love into something awful if he needed to.

 

Problem is OQ, was already playing him at his own game. So the brainwashing probably didn't go as far as it needed to, because OQ was good at convincing him Ras ego & plan was working. So we never got to fully see what Ras might have had in mind to manipulate the FS/OQ goodbye to his advantage. I think we might have seen it, if OQ had fought against the Nyssa marriage, but he didn't so it was never needed. Part of me wishes the writers had taken it there and really shown how evil Ras could be. Somehow forcing the marriage just made him seem like a true asshole & absolute jerk, I think it reflected more poorly on the writers that they thought it was okay to have this forced marriage as opposed to Ras. It felt more in poor taste for a social standpoint for the show, than world-class epic evil mastermind plan in motion. It felt wrong & not evil, and that in my book is a big difference when it comes to believability & entertainment when I assess villains.

[dtissagirl]

I'm with @apinknightmare. Felicity and Diggle tried to get Oliver out in 320, and he refused to go. So in 321 Felicity and Diggle are there for Thea. The fact that they don't verbalize wanting to get Oliver back, or even the fact that they don't have a plan to get Oliver back doesn't make me doubt that they care.

And hey, at the end of the episode, Felicity tells Thea that she loves Oliver just the same even after everything, so there is verbal admission of caring. Just not in the "we have to do everything to get Oliver back" way, because that was not where the story was going.

Edited July 31, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

Maybe in 3x21 Felicity still believed that Oliver meant what he said, that it wasn't goodbye and he was going to try to get out and reunite with her.  Diggle may have been focused on the immediate mission, which is to take care of Starling City while Oliver couldn't, and maybe waiting for an opportunity to get Oliver back until Oliver kidnapped Lyla.

 

But why would he do that?  He's a POS rapist/wannabe rapist by proxy.  I think I like the give her/take her away explanation the best, even though it was totally stupid of him, because he was pretty much nothing but stupid all season.

He didn't see himself as a POS though,  Like Malcolm and Slade, he thought he was doing the right thing, the better thing.  Malcolm thought that levelling the Glades was the way to stop the cancer eating the city, Slade thought vengeance on Oliver for his actions wrt Shado justified everything he did, and Ra's used killing people as a tool of rightness.

 

So for Ra's, the bigger picture is getting Oliver to be the next RAG but he sees himself as magnanimous in letting Oliver have what he himself could not have -- a last night with the woman he loves. After Oliver is brainwashed into being Al-Sahim, it's okay to force him to marry Nyssa because he's forgotten his feelings for Felicity and anyway it's all about the greater good.  In terms of the plotting, I think they had to give the audience a good Oliver/Felicity moment knowing what was coming in the next 2 episodes or face pitchforks at the production offices.

 

MG said

that Damian Darhk is going to be the first villain they have that is truly evil and does evil for its own sake.

[tv echo]

jbuffyangel does a nice job of summarizing, in animated gif form, SA's enthusiasm for the Oliver & Felicity dynamic...

 

http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/125432967728/stephen-amells-complete-lack-of-a-poker-face

Edited August 2, 2015 by tv echo

[wonderwall]

Shameless self promotion here... But last week I got really tired of hearing all the "Olicity came out of nowhere!" arguments and I just snapped. So I basically wrote an entire post on tumblr how that's not true and how their evolution in the first two seasons makes it not unbelievable that they'd be in love by episode 3x01. 

 

I hope you all like it! It's a bit long, but I had last week off so I had the free time :p If you guys have anything else to say or want to add anything or any thoughts, please do! I'm open to different POVs :) -- also pardon any mistakes! I didn't really go back to check if I made any mistakes or not.

 

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

Edited August 4, 2015 by wonderwall

[EmeraldArcher]

@wonderwall

 

Fantastic job!  I lost my original response, so here's the list of additions/other thoughts as I remember them:

• Unlike others who want something from Oliver, Felicity wants things for Oliver (shamelessly paraphrasing/quoting from a fan fic that I would cite if I could remember it). Even when she was disappointed when he slept with Isabel, she told him that he deserved better than Isabel. She always saw that he was strong and good, but didn't exploit that for her own gain--she just wanted him to see himself that way, too. 
• His relationships matter to her.  She encouraged him to reconcile with Diggle during S1 and she always supported him being there for Thea. She wasn't jealous of Sara, and she only complained about Laurel during S1 because their toxic relationship caused him to betray Diggle. His S3 mantra was that he just wanted her to be happy, but she had wanted that for him, as evidenced by her actions, for far longer.
• Her needs are important to him.  He brought back Barry for Felicity despite his own jealously.
• She tried to get him back on track when he fell back to self-sabotaging behavior, whereas others blamed him for his lapses.  She's just so patient with him. Her patience extends to accepting his ambiguous smile when she gave him an opportunity to confirm/deny his feelings for her in 2x23.
• He trusts her with his life.  You covered this one, but it struck me how completely vulnerable he was when he was shot by his mom. If he had misjudged her at all, Felicity could have not only acted intentionally by turning him in, she could have unintentionally caused his death if she'd delayed acting on his instructions.  So, she trusted him, too.

I'm probably not adding anything new, but hopefully I'm providing a few more examples of the types of evidence you presented.

[Delphi]

Shameless self promotion here... But last week I got really tired of hearing all the "Olicity came out of nowhere!" arguments and I just snapped. So I basically wrote an entire post on tumblr how that's not true and how their evolution in the first two seasons makes it not unbelievable that they'd be in love by episode 3x01.

I hope you all like it! It's a bit long, but I had last week off so I had the free time :p If you guys have anything else to say or want to add anything or any thoughts, please do! I'm open to different POVs :) -- also pardon any mistakes! I didn't really go back to check if I made any mistakes or not.

http://smoakd.tumblr.com/post/125872976746/the-evolution-of-olicity

Oh I actually follow you so I read that this morning. I thought it was very well written and thought out and I enjoyed the hell out of reading it. Plus I like the gifs you used. The syringe scene is never not funny.

[BkWurm1]

@Wonderwall. I've already referred back to your post when I was doing a big defending Felicity post. It was very helpful, I pulled quotes and specific episode references. I've bookmarked it for future reference too.

Edited August 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[EmilyBettFan]

Amazing post wonderwall!

[wonderwall]

Thank you guys so much! I tried to be objective and not go all meta on it, so hopefully that was achieved :)

 

And @emeraldarcher, I never noticed those points! Must watch said scenes again :)

@BkWurm1 I actually wanted to make that post for that purpose! I don't tend to get into arguments with people online (not anymore), but I know a lot of people need the ammo :) You're fighting the good fight :p

[statsgirl]

From the Felicity Smoak thread:

 

That's a bit harsh since it wasn't as though he ever said anything negative to her.

That post said she wanted stability and a home..but Diggle gave it to her just as much as Oliver.

I find that Diggle in the show and with numerous fans downplay his role in Oliver and Felicity's lives so that they would be each others #1. 

 

 

I find wanting Diggle to be either Felicity's or Oliver's #1 completely downplays Lyla's role in Diggle's life. She's his #1 and vice-versa.

In our society, your Significant Other is supposed to be your #1.  (In other societies, with arranged marriages and segregation of sexes, it's more often  your best same sex friend or maybe a sibling.)  If Lyla and Sara weren't Diggle's priority over Oliver, he wouldn't have been so angry at Oliver when Lyla was kidnapped, since as many have pointed out, Lyla was safe from him.  So it's a pretty safe assumption that Diggle is closer to Lyla and Sara than he is to Oliver.

 

In a cut scene from season 2 when Felicity and Sara are cleaning up the lair after Slade invaded, Felicity told Sara that the lair, even with the damp and cold, had become the first home she felt comfortable with in a long time.  So while Oliver got to go to Queen Manor at the end of the day and Diggle got to go to first Carly and then Lyla and Sara, Felicity considered the lair her real home. That made it all the worse when Diggle became Team Oliver, and the two of them pretty much relegated her to supporting character on Team Arrow along with Roy and Laurel in the second half of the season.

 

In season 1, when Oliver disappointed Diggle in Home Invasion, Felicity tried to get Oliver to talk to Diggle and when that didn't work, she went to Diggle and told him that Oliver needed him. Diggle told her Oliver had to be the one to apologize or he wasn't coming back.  In season 3, when Oliver unilaterally dumped Felicity, Diggle went to her and said she needed to stop seeing Palmer because it was messing with Oliver's head, and Felicity told him that Oliver had to be the one to say that.

 

There are two differences: first that unlike Diggle, Felicity was still working on Team Arrow; and second that Felicity told Diggle she understood why he was mad at Palmer whereas Diggle gave her zero support wrt her feelings about Oliver. For him, it was only that she was messing with Oliver's head and she needed to stop that.

 

So while I know it was for plot purposes, to me Diggle failed Felicity when she needed his support twice in season 2, in Draw Back Your Bow and again in Nanda Parbat.  She really didn't have anyone she could completely trust to be a support when she was in trouble.

[dtissagirl]

Diggle was never ever gonna be Oliver's #1 person, because that is not the story they set up to tell. Even Thea can't be the most important person in Oliver's life, because the entire premise of Oliver's hero's journey is that his humanity was ALWAYS gonna be tied to romantic love. The love of a woman would ~save Oliver's soul~, and deem him worthy of the "hero" title. They set it up so that Laurel would have been that woman; and they changed it to Felicity when L/O didn't work. But they did not stray from the idea that romantic love = the most important kind of love.

 

It's what the Laurel picture represented in the pilot. When that didn't work, they changed symbols so that Felicity could fulfill the Love Interest role. That's why it's Felicity who puts the mask on him in Three Ghosts. It's why the last image Oliver sees before falling off the mountain is Felicity. It's why he dreams of Felicity when Tatsu is nursing him to health. All of those things are very very standard imagery to represent the importance of romantic love in a narrative journey. They might have [hilariously] changed the woman who fits the bill, but the narrative structure they designed from day one pretty much stayed intact.

 

And because this show is nothing if not anvilistic, Diggle's romantic relationships are also there as a point of comparison to Oliver's romantic relationships. Carly was there for the Laurel story. Oliver cheated on Laurel with her sister, and here's Diggle in love with his dead brother's wife. One is sibling-switching done wrong, the other is sibling-switching done right.

 

Once L/O fizzled and died, Carly was expendable. [Well, and the actress got a new job]. When they decided to make Lyla the new romantic interest for Diggle, they also made sure that relationship was comparable to Oliver/Felicity: people in the same line of secretive dangerous works that find each other. And then it helped them immensely that giving Lyla knowledge of the secret life allowed the writing to develop her into much more than just someone to stand there to be "the example" of what a proper relationship looks like. Her presence in Diggle's narrative is still comparable to Felicity's presence in Oliver's, but Lyla's really not just there for that anymore. She became much more, thankully.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dancingnancy

[Morrigan2575]

^^^Fascinating post.  I never saw the comparisons between O/L and Diggle/Carly or Olicty and Diggle/Lyla.  That is interesting, especially since the show/writers/actors very often point to Diggle being just like Oliver only 5 years further down the road to normal.

 

I have read and to agree with all of the posts that layout the fact that the Olicity story/journey is pretty much the original plan for Lauiver they just switched up the Love Interest character. 

[AyChihuahua]

Diggle was never ever gonna be Oliver's #1 person, because that is not the story they set up to tell. Even Thea can't be the most important person in Oliver's life, because the entire premise of Oliver's hero's journey is that his humanity was ALWAYS gonna be tied to romantic love. The love of a woman would ~save Oliver's soul~, and deem him worthy of the "hero" title. They set it up so that Laurel would have been that woman; and they changed it to Felicity when L/O didn't work. But they did not stray from the idea that romantic love = the most important kind of love.

I personally think they've gone there a little bit with Thea and muddled that narrative a bit, but otherwise agree with you and statsgirl.  I don't see how it is at all controversial, even.  In Western societies, which is obviously this show's society/culture, a spouse and/or child are much more important than even a very best friend.  That does not denigrate the friendship, it elevates the spouse/child relationship.  It would be highly unusual, bordering on bizarre, for Diggle to love Oliver more than Lyla and Sara, and now that Oliver and Felicity are fully together, it would be highly unusual for either of them to love Digg more than each other.  Again, that doesn't mean they don't give a crap about Digg...that's absurd. 

[kismet]

Regarding Diggle & Felicity & Oliver.

 

They are all family, however, I think that Diggle was always closer to Oliver & Felicity was always closer to Oliver. What connected them was their bonds with Oliver. Eventually they became close themselves. And clearly they developed a bond between summer s1/2, but over s2 once OQ was back & Lyla became a more prominent person in Dig's life I feel like they started to grow apart. Albeit, not as much as I would have imagined in s3. In s3 between the OQ/FS separation & the birth of Sara - I think that Dig & FS life brought them down different paths which made them not as close as they were in s2. I think they still cared about each other, but it became apparent that they were not as close as they might have been.

 

I realize it was likely for plot purposes. But Diggle most definitely sided more or at least provided more support to OQ than FS during s3. I will never understand why the writers did not have Ray meet Dig earlier, because it would have been shown a deeper FS/Dig friendship, as well as have given Ray someone to train or vouch for him. I think that would have been a better integration of Ray than making him antagonistic to the entire Team Arrow, until the end of s3 when all the sudden he was supposed to be an ally. It just weird that they choose to intro people in antagonistic ways (they did it for LL). When the person is more supportive from the beginning its just a better integration like SL & BA.  FS & Dig's relationship suffered because it was pushed into the background to allow for Ray, when really it should not have been like that in real life.

 

Logistically I feel like Dig would have checked in more with FS, esp after winter finale - but it seemed like it wasn't until after OQ returned from the dead in spring that things got back in the right groove. Once again, making it seem like OQ is a lot of the reason FS & Dig bond. After they left him in NP, it seemed like Dig became the big brother that we thought he was, but perhaps that was to honor a promise he made to OQ to look after his family. Its interesting, because as much as I want FS & Dig to be best buddies, I honestly don't see them as that. I think I see them more in an older bro/young sis relationship, where in dire needs you turn to, but everyday life there is not as frequent interaction. Maybe its because I come from a family of 3, but I am super close to my young sister and not as much to my older bro, but I love them the same. And when serious things we unite, but I don't call my brother to chat about life as much as I do my sister. My sister is my friend & sister, whereas my brother is my brother. We are all family and have deep bonds & shared experiences but it translates differently.

[dtissagirl]

I personally think they've gone there a little bit with Thea and muddled that narrative a bit, but otherwise agree with you and statsgirl.

 

Oh, I agree, sometimes they muddle Thea's role in the narrative with regards to Oliver. And it's interesting too, that he's willing to do anything for her, but it's not ever because she's his equal -- it's because he needs to protect her from the entire universe. Because a lot of times Thea fits the narrative role of being Oliver's child. Especially in S3, with the lack of Moira as a clear parental figure, and Merlyn being THE VERY OPPOSITE of a parental figure.

Edited August 7, 2015 by dancingnancy

[NumberCruncher]

Oh, I agree, sometimes they muddle Thea's role in the narrative with regards to Oliver. And it's interesting too, that he's willing to do anything for her, but it's not ever because she's his equal -- it's because he needs to protect her from the entire universe. Because a lot of times Thea fits the narrative role of being Oliver's child. Especially in S3, with the lack of Moira as a clear parental figure, and Merlyn being THE VERY OPPOSITE of a parental figure.

I'm so glad you pointed this out because this has been something that has bugged me for awhile. Oliver being so overly protective of Thea might have made sense back when she was on the edge of adulthood but having the show now present her as a capable adult who ran a nightclub on her own, traveled the world "alone", and engaged in multiple adult relationships, I find the father figure role Oliver plays in her life more than a bit creepy. As her brother I completely understood him not wanting her under Merlyn's influence, but the lengths at which Oliver went to protect her in S3 were borderline ridiculous, IMO.