Cersei Baratheon: Attempting To Absorb Her Twin Postpartum

[90PercentGravity]

So, it occurs to me that while Cersei is suspected of committing many heinous acts, I don't think we've ever seen her actually do anything worse than be mean and verbally abusive (well, and commit incest). I've actually found myself wonder if she is really as bad as she seems. What if she didn't even do any of the things she has been accused of? It seems that she is always the first suspect, but when we actually find out who did something (i.e. ordering the slaughter of all the bastards, ordering the hit on Tyrion), she wasn't actually responsible. Perhaps she didn't poison John Aryn or arrange for Robert to be in a "hunting accident."

She DID beg Jaime to kill Tyrion, but has she really been seen doing anything particularly evil?

[stillshimpy]

From the episode thread for Breaker of Chains :

 

 

Cersei has been doing a lot of soul searching since Jamie left. She probably never had to before when Jamie was around all the time. Honestly, she may just feel guilty about the whole thing. Between Joffrey, the wars, the murders, and the humiliation, she may just be fed up. She doesn't want it anymore. She'd rather be alone and have her children than be some man's dick holster, sorry, wife.

Honestly, I think there might be some validity to the concept that Cersei feels -- if not remorse or guilt -- as if she has been punished for her relationship with Jaime.  

 

The death of Joffrey, someone murdering him (yay!) would rather underline that, I think. 

 

Pallas and White Stumbler have said a couple of times that is might be Jaime's injury/new deformity that has her recoiling.  She did actually shrink back from the metal hand, but it may be because it serves as a reminder to her that there have been heavy penalties for their relationship.  Joffrey was a psycho, Cersei did actually recognize that when talking to Tyrion about why she felt Tyrion needed to give Sansa a child to love.  Talking about how they say even with the worst ones, people always knew, from the time they were babies and how that was nonsense.  That Joffrey was just wonderful, etc. 

 

I think that really points to the possibility that Cersei believes all of this -- Joffrey's nature.  The actual war which was brought about because of her children's parentage.  Myrcella being taken away from her, Jaime being maimed, all of it -- has been visited upon them as punishment for all that the Lannisters in general and she and Jaime in particular, have done.  

 

Possibly not, because we know next to nothing about Cersei's internal world.  She said a few revealings things to Ned Stark that indicated that she might have been perfectly prepared to love and be happy with Robert Baratheon had it not been for....everything, but in particular his love/obession/refusal to attempt to try to move on from Lyanna.   It's hard to blame Robert entirely for that and I don't.  He was just a brokenhearted man who won a Kingdom to try and avenge a lost love and found that it didn't actually heal anything within him to win. 

 

And he was a terrible King just by virtue of who he was.  Tywin said that Robert confused winning with ruling, but I think Tywin is wrong and that if anything Cersei knows why he's wrong: Robert confused winning the rebellion with getting what he wanted (Lyanna back from Rhaegar) and when he didn't win in that way, he just gave in and up.  Cersei's life was shaped by that too. 

 

So anyway, the nearly constant drinking, the seeming understanding that Joffrey was a monster.  Telling Jaime it is over and too late -- even his raping her on the floor near Joffrey's body -- seems to be about Cersei's belief that perhaps she is being punished for all her sins.  

 

I think trying to stay away from Jaime, denying herself that, is actually her last bid to try and salvage something from the whole mess, to protect Tommen.  If she thinks she's being punished for everything having to do with Jaime then the touch of his metal hand wouldn't necessarily have made her shrink away because he's no longer whole, but rather, it might have been a literal cold, hard reminder of the many prices they have paid and why they have to stop.  

 

She's lost all of her children except for Tommen.  Maybe she wants to try and turn away from Jaime as an act of contrition.  

 

Or not.  It's hard to tell how deep or shallow Cersei really is.  She so seldom has scenes in which she's doing anything other than being poisonously bitter and acidic to those around her.  Lena Headey does a great job, but it's a tough role. 

Edited to put in text breaks, sorry guys! 

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

This actually brings up a good explanation for why I've never had a good impression of Jamie. In the Jamie/Cersei pairing, it was usually Jamie doing the unthinkable or despicable, though that was to seemingly protect Cersei. Like when Bran was pushed out of the window. Cersei yelling "he saw us" over and over was like a call for Jamie to act. Yet, the next episode she gets upset with Jamie because he attempting to murder a child.  Also, Jamie seems like he has no affection for any of his children. At all.

 

Maybe it's my youthful optimism, but I always saw Cersei as an extremely deep, tortured soul.  She's bitter to others because she's bitter herself.

 

Here was my original post that opened the thread:

Scenes with Cersei and Tyrion in season 2 & 3 were some of my favorites. Over time, she acknowledges and accepts that Joffrey really is a demon monster spawn. She even goes so far as to admit to Tyrion that she thought having an evil cunt for a son was a punishment for all "their sins." Meaning the sins of an incestuous relationship with her twin brother. The vile spawn of that union was evil and cruel and, also, entirely her own fault. The scene where she coddles his direwolf bite in season 1 comes to mind here.

 

I've had sympathy for Cersei, since season 2. The constant drinking and trying to find her place in the capital has been really rewarding to watch. Tywin was correct when he pointed out her shortcomings: not as smart as she thinks she is, not clever, not cunning. She's certainly not an idiot. I would even argue that she's smarter than Jamie. But in a capital that's crawling with Varys, Littlefingers, Pycelles, Tywin, and Tyrion, she really doesn't measure up. Then it's really hard to take her jealousy of Maegery seriously. Are the Tyrells gaining a dangerous foothold on the capital? A resounding yes. But she offers no fixes, no solutions other than to openly threaten Marge and screw over her plans for the leftovers. (Oh no! Not the leftovers!)

 

Cersei has been doing a lot of soul searching since Jamie left. She probably never had to before when Jamie was around all the time. Honestly, she may just feel guilty about the whole thing. Between Joffrey, the wars, the murders, and the humiliation, she may just be fed up. She doesn't want it anymore. She'd rather be alone and have her children than be some man's dick holster, sorry, wife.

 

Edited April 23, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[MrMicrophone]

Dire,

Do you feel like Jaime has crossed the moral event horizon? (or did he a looong time ago?)

[RadiantAerynSun]

What Jaime did to Cersei in the sept was horrible and wrong, but IMO he reacted in anger in response to her attempts to use sex to manipulate him into doing her bidding. He had already attempted to kill a 10 yr old child to protect her and their children, and look at the mess that created. He was just starting to recover some sense of decency as a human being and now she wants him to kill their own brother in revenge, and basically threatens to cut him off if he refuses (IMO that is why she first kisses him, but then pushes him away as I think she senses he's not going to agree to kill Tyrion). That's why he calls her a hateful woman, she is using his "love" for her to control him and make him do still more horrible things. She was ready to call their relationship quits until she needed something from him. Then she dangles it in front of him like a carrot. Without seeing the aftermath of that scene I'm not sure what Jaime's final decision was. Was the rape his way of saying "Fine, I will do your bidding, but you must give me what you promise, NOW" or was it his way of showing her that he WON'T be manipulated that way? I don't know. BTW: I am in no way trying to excuse Jaime's behavior just trying to understand from his character's POV.

 

What bad things has Cersei done, for a fact? I'll start:

- Had Ros kidnapped and beaten because she thought she was Tyrion's whore

 

anyone else?

[stillshimpy]

- Had Ros kidnapped and beaten because she thought she was Tyrion's whore

anyone else?

Had Robert drugged, leading to the goring, which led to his death, which she did because Ned Stark couldn't stand the thought of Robert having her children, or Cersei herself murdered.  We don't know that one for sure, but she was the only one who knew that Ned was now positive that none of her children were Robert's children.  So she used his impulse towards mercy to her advantage and had the King killed .

 

She really must wonder if Joffrey's death by poison is a direct punishment for that kind of thing, I suppose.  

 

The way she continually tormented Sansa was particularly cruel, when they were all standing around waiting for Ilan Payne to kill them before they could all be raped.  Also, not letting Joffrey out of that engagement even after they were at war with the North. 

 

Cersei manipulated Robert into ordering Lady killed also.  She's actually pretty bad, she just might not be anywhere near as bad as at least Tyrion thinks she is, but he does seem to know her better.  

Edited April 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Had Robert drugged, leading to the goring, which led to his death, which she did because Ned Stark couldn't stand the thought of Robert having her children, or Cersei herself murdered.  We don't know that one for sure, but she was the only one who knew that Ned was now positive that none of her children were Robert's children.  So she used his impulse towards mercy to her advantage and had the King killed .

 

I'm not clear on how much we can blame her for this. I'm pretty sure they did instruct Lancel to make sure RObert was good and drunk, but I don't think he funneled that wine down his throat against Robert's will. Enabling, for sure, and setting him up for disaster, but not directly murdering him. He did have 2 (3 if you count Lancel) other able-bodied men along with him who theoretically could have defended him against the Boar, but didn't he order them away or something? To let him have a shot at it? Been awhile since I watched that episode.

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

Letting Joff out of the arrangement with Sansa would be kinda the equivalent of throwing Sansa to the wolves. She's a REALLY valuable hostage, and Joff is theoretically supposed to take care of Sansa because she's going to be his wife.

[Okay, that comment reduced: If it wasn't Joff, it wouldn't have been a problem.]

Rad,

Ned says he's better with a spear than Robert is (for boarhunting, I suppose... they're off on a hunt first episode)... Can we call it manslaughter and leave it at that?

[stillshimpy]

I'm not clear on how much we can blame her for this.

That's kind of the deal with a lot of things having to do with Cersei.  She certainly has an acidic tongue, but at times she seems something of a paradox.  When Joffrey had the bastards killed -- although it wasn't confirmed that he did it -- Cersei looked honestly distressed by the concept of all those babies and children being killed  

I don't know, Tryion might simply be overstating things, but when she had a hold of Ros the worst that happened appeared to be that Ros ended up with a fat-lip, not that's okay, but it's not like she was permanently disfigured, murdered or tortured.  I think Cersei is likely pretty damned bad on a lot of levels, but I think (largely due to Tyrion) her reputation is often worse than her actions.  Her tongue and manner of speaking seems to be also. 

[CorgiNarnia]

So is it correct that Cersei and Robert never had their own kids? I got myself confused because I watched Season 1 again and Cersei was telling Catelyn about the dark-haired boy she lost at birth. That was her only kid with Robert? (Where I got confused was I thought maybe that was Gendry who didn't die at birth like they told her, but he's not hers, he's a Robert bastard.) How come there weren't some black hair kids mixed in with the blond ones? They must have kept having sex over the years if Robert was not suspicious of their parentage, not that hair color is the only trait. Or are we meant to just assume Robert was so absorbed in whores and drinking that he didn't really think twice about the fact that he has all blond children?

[ChocButterfly]

Wasn't Cersei the one who tried to have Tyrion killed? I thought that was a fact. Also, I'm almost convinced she's the one who was behind John Arryn' s death. And we may never know, but I also believe she and Jaimie sent that guy to kill Bran, although a lot of people don't think so.

Corgi, Cersei did have a first child with Robert, but he died. Some think she actually murdered the baby, cuz it was Robert's, but I don't believe that. She seemed very sincere and sad about that loss.

[DirewolfPup]

Wasn't Cersei the one who tried to have Tyrion killed? I thought that was a fact. Also, I'm almost convinced she's the one who was behind John Arryn' s death. And we may never know, but I also believe she and Jaimie sent that guy to kill Bran, although a lot of people don't think so.

Corgi, Cersei did have a first child with Robert, but he died. Some think she actually murdered the baby, cuz it was Robert's, but I don't believe that. She seemed very sincere and sad about that loss.

No, it was confirmed in a conversation S03 between Cersei and Tyrion that Joffrey tried to have Tyrion killed. Tyrion asked if he was still in danger. Cersei replied with something like "maybe. but he won't try anything now that father's (Tywin's) here."

 

I also thought it was confirmed that Joffrey ordered the bastard killings. That was yet another conversation between Tyrion and Cersei where he accuses her of killing the bastards, and she gives him the "not my move" look. Tyrion then realizes it was Joffrey who gave the orders and says so out loud.

 

I'm not lying when I say Cersei/Tyrion scenes are my favorite. They don't seem to be anyone elses ;)

[DirewolfPup]

Jamie was very redeemable up until last episode. I just didn't think he was redeeming yet. Now? Who knows. I think everyone in the story has a chance to redeem themselves --- aside from the List of Irredeemable People. The list currently includes Littlefinger, The Thenns, The Boltons, Ramsey Snow, and Walder Frey.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I'm not lying when I say Cersei/Tyrion scenes are my favorite. They don't seem to be anyone elses ;)

 

Au contraire, lots of interesting stuff comes out when those 2 talk to each other. Favorite? Maybe not, but always interesting!

 

Personally I don't think Cersei killed her/Robert's son. I think his death was the final death knell for their relationship.

[Pallas]

Personally I don't think Cersei killed her/Robert's son. I think his death was the final death knell for their relationship.

 

I agree, Radiant, and her grief seems to me in keeping with her having once harbored hopes for marriage.  Hopes she still remembers having had, and asked Robert if he had once shared, too.  Answer: Hell no.  And, couples better matched and with deeper history than Robert and Cersei (that is, all other couples) have been crippled by the death of a child.  It makes sense that Cersei/Robert came a-cropper there, once and for all.  

 

My feeling is that her actor has decided that Cersei is a bad actor.  So that when Cersei seems sincere, she is; when Cersei seems conniving, she is, despite Cersei's efforts to be appear sincere.  So that Lena Headey playing Cersei playing shaken and sad about a child = Cersei shaken and sad about a child, whether that child is her first, or Bran, or Robert's bastards, or her worst.  Of course since this is Games of Thrones, I may be kidding myself  or Lena Headey may be kidding me or Cersei/her creator/her showrunners may be kidding Lena Headey, but I don't think so.  

 

My other take is that Cersei has a soft spot for (specific) children (of her class) because, despite her styling herself as a Player, Cersei on some level knows she is no more mature than a child, and still feels just as thwarted by the power of the real adults in any room she's in.  Even by their superior savvy or intelligence, though she may never allow herself to be aware of her own evaluation. Thus in part her jealousy of Margaery and even Tyrion, both of whom she outranks but somewhere in her, recognizes and loathes as her betters, while citing other reasons for her animosity. 

[stillshimpy]

My feeling is that her actor has decided that Cersei is a bad actor.  So that when Cersei seems sincere, she is; when Cersei seems conniving, she is, despite Cersei's efforts to be appear sincere.

 

I watched Headey in Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles and I think you're right.  I think Headey is making a deliberate point of showing when her character is "acting".  It's a very specific and strange challenge for an actor, to try and depict their character as acting.  Pretending.  Being artificial in a way the audience is meant to detect and Heady is playing it much broader here than she did in TSCC where the character of Sarah Connor frequently had to "act" or "fool" people, or work under pretense, pretending to be someone other than Sarah Connor.  Despite stifling an accent for the role, Headey was much more layered in her "Sarah is now pretending within the story" moments, because Sarah Connor was meant to be a very good actor.  

 

Whereas Cersei stinks and is easily spotted as being artificial.  Remember that scene where she manipulated Sansa into writing that letter?  Man, people in the bleachers could have spotted that stage acting.  So it is a deliberate choice Heady makes for Cersei.  However, what really makes me believe that Cersei was telling the truth about grieving her firstborn was the actor playing Cat in that same scene.  Fairley openly played Catelyn as being caught off-her-guard by Cersei's unexpected emotional candor.  Catelyn watches Cersei like she's watching a viper surprised in the middle of a tender act.  Very carefully, surprised that such an attribute could exist in such a snake and yet completely fascinated to see Cersei's personal curtain pulled back for a moment. 

 

So I think your read is accurate.  When Cersei is acting, it's visible from space as being artifice.  

Edited April 26, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

ITA that Cersei's bark tends to be worse than her bite but I think she is one of the most horrible people on this show, only a notch above those on the Irredeemable List.  She did egg Jaime on in the Bran incident (her part in it was repeated in Bran's recent vision at the weirwood: "He saw us!!"), I'm fairly sure that she was behind the Most Famous Knife attempt on Bran's life (Cersei scopes out the room, tells Cat that sad story about her first son's death, and next thing that happens is the assassin comes, acting on Cersei's intel that it's just coma Bran and crying Cat in there), she absolutely definitely murdered Jon Arryn (Ned: "Poison.  A woman's weapon."), and she definitely absolutely got Robert killed (the minstrel's song said so -- the minstrel that lost his tongue).  

I think that this show (script, actors, directors) are really great at getting us to sympathize with people even when they're demonstrably horrible.  I absolutely "get" Cersei most of the time, I'd say at least 75% of the time, I can feel where she's coming from.  I get that her entire life has been a disappointment to her, that nothing turned out like she wanted/planned, that she's somewhat deficient in her ability to overcome her circumstances and takes it out on everyone around her, especially those she sees as her enemies (Margery) or playthings (Sansa), that she lost her mother at an early age and blames Tyrion, that she realizes her attachment to her twin has been unhealthily, possibly resulting in her son turning out to be a lunatic.  Mucho credit to Lena Headey (sp?) for her awesome multi-layered portrayal.

BUT, Cersei is a viper who poisons her own nest.  She coddled Joffrey and showed him how to lie and told him the world would bow down before him and it didn't matter what the truth was b/c he would be king.  She alienates everyone that could be loyal to her (this very much includes Jaime and Tyrion).  She never "rises above" anything.  She's always dwelling in the deepest, murkiest part of the waters.  She's not 1000% evil, that's why she didn't kill all the bastard children and didn't put that first hit out on Tyrion.  But things get a little wonky, and start to go a bit sideways for her, or danger's in the air, she acts and acts badly and evilly -- Jon Arryn, Bran, and Robert all paid the price for her nervousness (and it seems clear to me she had *something* to do with Ned's betrayal by Littlefinger in the throne room, though I can't prove it), and now she wants Tyrion dead.  Cersei is basically like an Evil Disney Queen, with multi-dimensionality: she's aggrieved for reasons, but it doesn't excuse the fact that she does Very Very Bad Things. 

[izabella]

Cersei is out of control.  First, she's begging Jamie to murder Tyrion.  Now she wants him to bring Sansa's head to her on a platter.  All the while, she's lashing out at Jamie for not jumping to act as her personal assassin.  She hates Margery, and of course hates Loras, and I'm sure would prefer if all the Tyrell's were dead.  I'm starting to think Joffrey's crazy wasn't just because of twincest, but because Cesei is somewhat crazy and blood-thirsty herself. 

[MrMicrophone]

abe,

That sounded more like "shock" than egging Jaime on.

I don't think Cercei would think that Catelyn wouldn't still be with Bran -- and that's what the assassin said. 

I'm also not certain that Cercei/Jaime were involved in Jon Arryn's death. Could they have done it? Sure.

 

Looked at more from that perspective, she really only pushed Robert over the edge. And yes, she wants Tyrion/Sansa dead

-- but she's vengeful, isn't she? Arya's about that vengeful, too, no?

[Snowblack]

I don't think Cercei would think that Catelyn wouldn't still be with Bran -- and that's what the assassin said. 

I'm also not certain that Cercei/Jaime were involved in Jon Arryn's death. Could they have done it? Sure.

 

Looked at more from that perspective, she really only pushed Robert over the edge. And yes, she wants Tyrion/Sansa dead -- but she's vengeful, isn't she? Arya's about that vengeful, too, no?

 

I don't think we know who was behind the attempt on Bran's life.  One of Tywin's kids for sure, since I don't think anyone else would have a reason or access to a valyrian steel dagger.  But I thought it was pretty clear that Cersei took out Jon Arryn because he discovered or was on the cusp of discovering the parentage of Cersei's children.  I think it's clear Cersei will do drastic and despicable things to protect herself and her children.

 

As for being vengeful, she is.  She's blinded by hatred, whether rightfully or not.  I think there's an interesting parallel here to Catlyn Stark.  She allowed her thirst for revenge to overcome her better judgment, and it led (indirectly) to her own death and that of much of her family.  I wonder whether this show punishes that sort of behavior regardless of who exhibits it, or if it's only the good guys who aren't allowed to be foolish.  I guess we'll find out when we see how things turn out for Cersei.

[MrMicrophone]

snow,

Any reason to think that Robert the King wouldn't have had a valyrian dagger? If so, anyone who could have access to it might have done it.

[Snowblack]

MrMicrophone, that's an excellent point.  It very well could have been the king's dagger.  We have no reason to believe Little Finger's claim that the dagger belonged to Tyrion.  But who had motive here?  Tyrion is unlikely, especially since designed the saddle for Bran while he was on his trip north and back.  Obviously Cersei and Jaime had motive.  I think if any of the Starks thought Bran should be put out of his misery, they would have just done the deed.  And they certainly would have known Catlyn would be in Bran's room.  So it's entirely possible it was someone who isn't a Lannister, but I can't imagine whom. 

[90PercentGravity]

Didn't Tyrion admit that it was his and that LF (or someone) won it off of him in a poker game?

[stillshimpy]

Didn't Tyrion admit that it was his and that LF (or someone) won it off of him in a poker game?

 

Littlefinger claimed that Tyrion won it from Littlefinger when Tyrion bet against Jaime in the joust , I believe it was Loras but I can't swear to that.  

 

Wasn't that it?  There was a LOT of speculation about whether or not Tyrion would ever bet against his brother.  Anyway, we still don't know who sent the Hapless, Toothless, Chatty Assassin who gave Catelyn Stark a sporting chance by saying "You're not supposed to be here."  

 

I don't think we will ever know definitively who sent that assassin until the final episodes of this series.  Some theories had it as Littlefinger, some Joffrey (because of using Tyrion's knife)  some Cersei (which has recently gained credibility in my eyes seeing as she violently hates Tyrion), but bottom line is: We don't know and that seems to be an active choice within the story.  

Edited April 29, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

I was planning on defending Cersei here because she hasn't really killed anyone (that we know for sure). I see that others agree.

 

But then I realized that her actions (twincest, leading to "He saw us!") have directly caused the death of thousands. If Cersei hadn't presented her and Jaime's children to the world as if they were Robert's, and if she hadn't insisted that Jaime clean up the potential mess from Bran seeing them screwing at Winterfell, then there is no war, right?

 

OTOH, you could lay those bodies at the feet of Robert for being such a shitty husband. Causation becomes very slippery in the 7K.

 

stillshimpy: "Catelyn watches Cersei like she's watching a viper surprised in the middle of a tender act." So, so good. Thanks for that callback and description.

[ChocButterfly]

I don't know that she hasn't killed anyone.  I'm with abelard here, I'm almost sure she killed Arryn cuz he found out about the twincest. We also know she's responsible for Robert's "accident". I also believe she sent the assassin to Bran, cuz she and Jaimie were the only ones with any motive to see him dead. I know there have been a lot of speculation about it, but I don't understand why if no one else had any real reason to see Bran dead except for the  twins. Now, I know even though Jaimie is  a sociopath he's also too lazy and too stupid to plan any assassination,  it's not the way he rolls. So that leaves Cersei.

[abelard]

You go, ChocButterfly.  Four for you.  

Also, I don't give Cersei a pass on any of the terrible things she has threatened and not actually done.  Asking Jaime to kill Tyrion in cold blood.  Having Ser Ilyn Payne stay with the womenfolk during Blackwater so that he could slay them all before they could be raped by the invading army.  Nearly poisoning Tommen in the throne room that very night.  Didn't she tell Tyrion that they could just kill Sansa and Loras so that they wouldn't have to marry them?  Cersei is a bitter, bad person.  Again, I will say that the actress is so good (and maybe some credit to writing/direction too) that I do feel sympathy for her much of the time.  But my understanding her pov and feeling something for her doesn't make her good.  I think it makes me a sucker, if anything!

[MrMicrophone]

Choc,

She's the one bitching at Jaime for throwing the kid off the tower. She's very much of the opinion that she can bully/browbeat the kid into staying quiet (I'd say she's got the right of it. Bran's not that dumb).

 

I don't think she'd kill someone else's child just for the hell of it. Again, she only went for Ned/Jon (if she did go for Jon) AFTER they figured the secret out (she must have known they were asking about). She's been content to wait until there is a Clear and Present Danger.

 

And I think she's trying to be as merciful as she can be, with Ser Ilyn and the poison. Sparing people pain and suffering.

[WhiteStumbler]

Cersei: How could you be so stupid?

Jaime: Calm down.

Cersei: He's a child. Ten years old. What were you thinking?

Jaime: I was thinking of us. You're a bit late to start complaining about it now. What has the boy told them?

Cersei: Nothing. He's said nothing, he remembers nothing.

Jaime: Then what are you raving about?

Cersei: What if it comes back to him, he tells his father what happened.

Jaime: We'll say he was lying, we'll say he was dreaming, we'll say whatever we want to say. I think we can outfox a ten year old.

This conversation is after the 2nd attempt on Bran's life. I suppose one reading of that dialogue could implicate Jaime, but not Cersei IMO. I don't think either of Team Twincest is to blame for the 2nd attempt. Littlefinger or Joffrey are the only two who could be responsible. I guess I will throw Team Bolton in there, but no idea how he could get ahold of Knifey.

[Pallas]

Great capture, White Stumbler.  I agree.  I think Cersei loses her head a little in time of stress, and cries out, "He saw!" and "How could you be so stupid!," but depend on others -- okay, Jaime -- to act, while she wrings her hands.  That is, Cersei sober acts this way, or rather, doesn't act at all.  Drunk!Cersei, on the other hand, summons up a swaggering mordant fatalism that empowers her to summon Ilyn Payne and decant the nightshade, just in case.  

 

It remains to be seen what YouThoughtThat Was Drunk!Cersei might have in reserve. 

[Pallas]

From the episode thread,

 

I am surprised so many of you think Cersei is incapable, or has not "killed" before. She is a vindictive, spiteful, mean, bitch who is becoming almost as mentally fucked in the noggin as her demented offspring was. In a nutshell, she is batshit crazy. To me, she possesses all the star qualities of a sociopath.

 

 

Cersei is awful.  She is a cruel, vituperative and hateful person. I'm basing my view of Cersei on what I imagine her creator may be doing with her.  What pains me most about Cersei is how much she reminds me of many of the privileged, thwarted women with whom I grew up.  Women who knew little of life or the men they married when they married them, and then spent the rest of their lives hating the lives they lived and the men they married.  Women kept in split-level Keeps, where they drank and took pills and staged nightly shows of their misery.  Women who wanted their sons to be their champions.  Women who went sour and a little crazy, who turned on everyone: their husbands, their children, each other.  

 

Women trapped, who behaved like it: depressed, anxious, unable to put together a plan to change a thing.  Women paralyzed within their prosperity, because it was not theirs but their husbands'.  Women with no money of their own, no job history and no prospects.  Women who had only each other for company, and who proclaimed that they had never liked other girls.  None of them lived anywhere near any place or anyone familiar: they were the generation that moved away from their hometowns and extended family, following their husbands wherever their careers took them.  Their tiny nuclear families were their only ecosystem, and in their despair they flailed and poisoned them a little, sullied them a little, tainted the air and salted the earth...but did not, quite, blow them up or do anything irreversible, like murder, suicide or even divorce.  They did not do anything bold...like learn.  Like change.  Like leave.  Like forgive.

 

My view of Cersei is based on a feeling that GRR Martin knew those women too, and, means Cersei to represent them. That she is his Betty Draper -- the one who didn't change her life because her creator got tired of writing about it.  (I know this about Martin, based on a picture and my remembering him as a writer for Beauty and the Beast: he is older than I, knows his Shakespeare, and sees people in the whole.)  And so my view is in keeping with the hunch that Yara may succeed in, as shimpy said, taking on the patriarchy -- just as Arya is doing, in her way, and Brienne, and even Sansa.  

 

I've quoted before that line from Dune about Duke Leto, in reference to Ned: "For the father, nothing."  I think it is also true of Cersei, in a very different and more terrible way.  For those mothers, nothing.  It doesn't make her a murderer; it makes her hateful, as Jaime said.  It doesn't make her a killer, it makes her poisonous. The only antidote is to leave, and forgive.  

[stillshimpy]

Women who knew little of life or the men they married when they married them, and then spent the rest of their lives hating the lives they lived and the men they married.  Women kept in split-level Keeps, where they drank and took pills and staged nightly shows of their misery.

 

So that was some great use of imagery there, Pallas.  Not only could I see a bunch of my friend's mothers in that (luckily not mine, but then I didn't grow up with my mom), but yes, that's a truly evocative and familiar picture you're painting there and I agree Martin will have likely encountered the same sorts.  I think this story might be taking a less "Everyone was like this" than someone like Matt Weiner did.  

 

However, here's where we part company on this.  I agree with all of that and still think that Cersei is the character who will be, essentially, sacrificed on the altar of it all.  She pretty much already is  Like Catelyn Stark before her, who was primarily happy in everything the world told her she should be.  Even if it meant marrying the brother of the man she actually loved, she grew to love him.  Even if it meant living with his bastard son, it didn't turn her entirely to bitterness (although I wouldn't want to be Jon Snow in that equation).  Catelyn took the template for What Is Expected Of a Woman and fit within it, with just a few awkward elbows and knees, but basically a fit.  

 

She died more horribly and more heartbroken than anyone should.  Cersei is the next closest to her in terms of characters who tried to work within a system, rather than burn that bastard to the ground.  Yes, Cersei cheated, deceived, likely had her husband killed, cheated him out of any chance of an actual heir (and I primarily don't blame her for that, even if her methods are horrible, so were Robert's "get blind drunk and pretend Cersei is the woman I actually wanted to marry" terribly wrong-footed solutions) , but she did it all secretly and pretending to be part of that system.   

 

Cersei had a plan to game that freaking system.  She also still sought the approval of Tywin (represent the Patriarchal system much?) and would still try to seek it if only he'd offer it.  Cersei didn't break out of the rules and leave them behind, she broke the rules while pretending to adhere to them.  Like the polyester clad, Virginia Slim smoking, vodka and tonic drinker you describe above.  

 

Yara, Arya, Brienne all broke out of the mold.  I don't know what Sansa's fate will be, but I think Cersei will die of her poisoned soul instead of triumphing.  

Edited May 4, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

What a wonderful post, shimpy.  I agree completely:

 

Cersei had a plan to game that freaking system.  She also still sought the approval of Tywin (represent the Patriarchal system much?) and would still try to seek it if only he'd offer it.  Cersei didn't break out of the rules and leave them behind, she broke the rules while pretending to adhere to them.  Like the polyester clad, Virginia Slim smoking vodka and tonic drinker you describe above. 

Yara, Arya, Brienne all broke out of the mold.  I don't know what Sansa's fate will be, but I think Cersei will die of her poisoned soul instead of triumphing.

 

 

I too see Cersei as a sacrifice-to-be on the altar of Patriarchy.  A sacrifice who is, in part, an accomplice in her own death.  She doesn't have a revolutionary bone in her body.  She only hated aspects of the patriarchy because she wasn't part of it.  Change nothing else about her except her gender, Cersei would out-Tywin Tywin in buttressing the system.  She'd have absolutely no objections to any ruling order in which she could come out on top; the less just and more stratified, the better.  

 

In that she is unlike at least some of the women I described.  She is her very own special brand of awful.  And I don't think she will prevail or even survive for long: her suicide seems very likely.  And unlike Cat -- even if Cersei takes her own life, she won't ever know what she died for.  

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy:

"I don't think anyone was following Joffrey's orders" (at the time Micah was killed).

What about The Hound? In Dondarrion's cave he was asked about killing Micah and said "Not my place to question princes." That one was Joffrey. Cersei directly lead to the death of Lady, and maybe J Arryn. That is all.

Indirectly, sure, thousands. I think she is capable of it, but Cersei hasn't been shown to have killed any human.

[gingerella]

Women who knew little of life or the men they married when they married them, and then spent the rest of their lives hating the lives they lived and the men they married.  Women kept in split-level Keeps, where they drank and took pills and staged nightly shows of their misery.  Women who wanted their sons to be their champions.  Women who went sour and a little crazy, who turned on everyone: their husbands, their children, each other. 

 

Women trapped, who behaved like it: depressed, anxious, unable to put together a plan to change a thing.  Women paralyzed within their prosperity, because it was not theirs but their husbands'.  Women with no money of their own, no job history and no prospects.  Women who had only each other for company, and who proclaimed that they had never liked other girls.  None of them lived anywhere near any place or anyone familiar: they were the generation that moved away from their hometowns and extended family, following their husbands wherever their careers took them.  Their tiny nuclear families were their only ecosystem, and in their despair they flailed and poisoned them a little, sullied them a little, tainted the air and salted the earth...but did not, quite, blow them up or do anything irreversible, like murder, suicide or even divorce.  They did not do anything bold...like learn.  Like change.  Like leave.  Like forgive.

 

 

*claps slowly and in admiration*

 

Dayum Pallas! That? Was a thing of beauty right there...Visceral imagery. Thank you.

 

[Pallas]

Thank you, gingerella!  And shimpy, what a great point also about what may be true with GRR Martin vs. Matthew Weiner, when it comes to depicting the thwarted housewife.  You said,

 

I think this story might be taking a less "Everyone was like this" than someone like Matt Weiner did.

 

 

And you depicted Cat as an example of another woman caught up in much the same circumstances, who made very different choices.  Cat, on whom her creator bestowed the inner resources to make the best of it.  Along with five pretty remarkable children. And, okay, Cat was married off to Ned and Cersei to Robert.  She was a Tully, growing up among stout-hearted Tullys in the Riverlands, not a Lannister growing up among...Tywin...and her fellow little Lannister inmates on what may have been Casterly Rock-to-which-I'm-chained-while-an-eagle-eats-my-gizzard.  

 

I love your point that while Martin may be allowing Cersei to represent some of that generation, he has a broader perspective about it than Weiner, the man who set his saga smack in the middle of it.  I don't get the feeling that Martin is scoring points off any of his own creations.  

 

Well, maybe Joffrey.  I wonder if Joffrey stands in for every bully Martin encountered in middle school.  And even so -- at least as A Show shows us and especially, as Jack Gleeson portrayed him -- Joffrey was authentically his singular, horrible self.  (Was it Gleeson or the director who came up with the idea that he do a spit take of his wine, during the execrable dwarf show?  Brilliant!)  

[gingerella]

I like to comparisons between Cersei Baratheon and Betty Draper, though where the two characters diverge for me is that despite them always making shit soup out of lemonade, at least Betty went out and tried to "find happiness" or "a better life" or whatever you want to call her having an affair with Henry and then marrying him like she won a prize at the fair. Sure, Betty has ended up being the same bitter, depressed, oppressed housefrau with Henry, that she was with Don, only it seems Henry doesnt go around town schtupping every woman he meets. OTOH, Cersei doesnt seem to have tried to improve her life one iota. She just roams the dank, dark hallways and chambers of the royal abode in KL, hissing venom and spewing hateful thoughts and lies at anyone who will stand still long enough to listen. I mean, if she married Loras and went to live in Highgarden, maybe her life could indeed improve. She could live in a place that has been described as a paradise. She would be free of the Baratheon legacy and the Lannister chains. And her husband wouldnt be wanting to sleep with her so she could twke a lover of her own choosing if she desired it.

So yeah, Betty Draper seems positively proactive and functional comapred to Cersei, who standing next to Betty, comes off as a petulant, childish shrew.

ETA: Does the word 'cunt' really have its origins going back to the Dark Ages/Medieval times? Because it struck me odd they used that phrase in "The War for Cersei's Cunt", but I cannot imagine A Show making such a mistake, so it must be a word that was used way back in days of yore, yes? I wonder if it simply meant a lady's ladybits, or if it was used in a derogatory manner, as it is now. Anyone know the history of this word?

Edited May 4, 2014 by gingerella

[stillshimpy]

There's one Google search I won't be performing, that's for sure, gingerella, but yes, that's my understanding of it.  

 

Although I believe it's been changed from the original "cunny" which I have no clue what the origin of that was.  

[90PercentGravity]

Wikipedia is your friend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunt#Usage:_pre-twentieth_century

 

"Its first appearance in the Oxford English Dictionary was in 1972, which cites the word as having been in use since 1230 in what was supposedly a London street name of "Gropecunte Lane"."

Edited May 4, 2014 by 90PercentGravity

[gingerella]

shimpy, HA! Well that's a search one would NOT do on one's work computer, that's for sure! Can you imagine explaining that to the IT team and your boss, "...No, but really, it was a topic of discussion on my GoT thread and we wanted to know how correct, or not, the show was being in terms of vernacular slangs..."

 

90, I wonder if that street was a street for ladies of the evening, and hence the name shortening to refer to the part of a lady that one would purchase on said street. That would make more sense to me...and yes shimpy, now that you bring it up, I have heard the word "cunny" in the past, though I cannot thankfully remember where.

[90PercentGravity]

Gingerella, yeah, the article goes on to say exactly that. It also says the word's origins are earlier than 1230, but doesn't say how much earlier.

[MrMicrophone]

ging,

Cersei did get it on with Jaime, wherein they seemed to find happiness of a sort.

Martin and writers do indeed seem to be busy showing different ways of dealing with patriarchy.

 

Olenna is another example. She's simply old enough, and wise enough, to be effective.

"Stupid Mace wants an alliance? Stupid Marg got engaged to a psychopath? 

Poison will do the trick."

I gotta say, I really hope Cersei doesn't commit suicide. Particularly not with Tommen and Myrcella to live for.

She may be a spiteful bitch (o'course she is!), but she's delightful to watch in her spite.

[MrMicrophone]

shimp and ging,

the usual bowlderization is country... as in "country manners". Victorians loved dancing towards that word.

(note: in England it's a word still In Use -- aka no one brings out the seven feminazi Brides from Hell if it's used

[naturally, I'm only using feminazi because I think it was Limbaugh who got called on using it last]).

[DirewolfPup]

Watching Cersei is so much fun. For a second, I thought Cersei was being honest and redeeming when she approached Margaery. After a bit, the realization came that she's working all the jurors. Ah! Love her. She's crazy, mean, and spiteful, but I love love love watching her do it.

[Pallas]

And, she was smart enough to go to Margaery and not to Mace, the actual juror: she perceived and accepted that the daughter seems to rule the father.  Cersei swallowed that bit stuck in her craw, and got on with the job.  Positively Littlefinglish.  The only time she showed her fist was with Oberyn, when she rejoined, "Everywhere in the world..."  

 

Enjoyable though Oberyn is, it's possible his pride and limited interest in Women's Issues -- pretty much, poison, paramours and avenging one's sister -- might prevent his respecting her the more for that reply.  But for that line and its diamantine delivery, I briefly loved The Queen.  

[Ariadne]

And, she was smart enough to go to Margaery and not to Mace, the actual juror: she perceived and accepted that the daughter seems to rule the father.  Cersei swallowed that bit stuck in her craw, and got on with the job.  Positively Littlefinglish.  The only time she showed her fist was with Oberyn, when she rejoined, "Everywhere in the world..."  

 

Enjoyable though Oberyn is, it's possible his pride and limited interest in Women's Issues -- pretty much, poison, paramours and avenging one's sister -- might prevent his respecting her the more for that reply.  But for that line and its diamantine delivery, I briefly loved The Queen.  

I loved the slight grimace that came over her face before she offered the queenship to Margaery, I only noticed it on rewatch, great acting from Lena Headey - if only Cersei were always like this - so entertaining.

 

It was very clever to identify what each of the judges wanted most.

 

Margaery - being THE Queen (only if Mace finds Tyrion guilty of course)

Tywin - ensuring the Lannister family legacy (by meekly agreeing to marry Loras - after the trial of course)

Oberyn - she appeals to his desire for vengeance for his sister and bonds over the love they have for their children

[stillshimpy]

Watching Cersei is so much fun. For a second, I thought Cersei was being honest and redeeming when she approached Margaery. After a bit, the realization came that she's working all the jurors.

 

Yes, indeed.  She's trying to catch flies with honey, but it does make me wonder what she plans to do after she's gotten Tyrion convicted, by acting the role of the diplomat (can you even imagine how hard that must have been for freaking Cersei?  )  Surely there must be something she plans on doing.  

 

Pallas, I think Cersei was actually appealing to the side of Oberyn that still harbors a grudge for the slaughter and terrible mistreatment of a loving sister.  She was implying that she's been hurt too.  She was appealing to Oberyn's Angels, essentially.  He looked at her like he was startled by that insight, but also as if he wondered how she had suffered.  Basically, she nudged him in the Chivalry, I think. 

[WhiteStumbler]

I loved the slight grimace that came over her face before she offered the queenship to Margaery, I only noticed it on rewatch, great acting from Lena Headey - if only Cersei were always like this - so entertaining.

And on re-watch last night I think I understand Margaery better in that scene - my read is that once M saw that Cersei was trying on a new costume (colored in sweetness and light), Margaery sort of decided to see how far she could push Cersei, which is when the "sister" line came out, followed by the "Mom"-bomb.

[gingerella]

Stumbler, I would love to see Marg conquer Cersei in the end, I'm not sure A Show would allow such triumph to prevail, but A Viewer can dream, can't she?

[WhiteStumbler]

Tyrion (to Jaime): "Try the boar. Cersei can't get enough of it since one killed Robert for her."

ETA: S4E2

So Cersei expresses "love" for something by devouring it. Huh.

Edited June 1, 2014 by WhiteStumbler