“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[ILoveReading]

I don't know if it would really be a step back, since Carver is still listed as an executive producer on the show, which means the show would still be paying him. 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't know if it would really be a step back, since Carver is still listed as an executive producer on the show, which means the show would still be paying him. 

I don't usually pay attention to the credits, is he still being listed as a producer? I figured that would've stopped this season. Interesting.

Edited May 9, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

Maybe someone can make a deal with Crowley to get Kim Manners back.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Reganne said:

When did someone say that? As far as I can tell some people were just saying both brothers have said negative and positive things to eachother instead of it being only one sided. 

 OK. I said a while back that we have gotten a lot of Sam eye rolls, scoffs, and acting embarrassed about and irritated with his brother. I also said that IMO, Sam gives the impression that he thinks he is better than his gluttonous, dumb, horny slob of a brother even though he loves him..." 

 The response was that no, these are brotherly things and Sam is teasing. 

IMO, you can't say Sam is teasing Dean when he regularly does it behind Dean's back. Watch the restaurant scene in The Memory Remains. Sam's condescending quips are when Dean is already over talking to the waitress. Sam is not smiling. This isn't light hearted brotherly banter. There is no attitude of "well that's just my goofy brother". It is more like why does my brother have to be a horny stupid idiot. They even cut back to Sam's face a second time just so Show makes sure we see Sam's response. I guess show thinks we should find it funny. I don't.  Sam's expression is really easy to read and it is pure exasperation. Sam is very condescending to Dean on a regular basis. This was just one of the latest.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't usually pay attention to the credits, is he still being listed as a producer? I figured that would've stopped this season. Interesting.

He's been listed as an EP all season

[auntvi]

Maybe he has an agreement to keep the title and some money? McG was listed as an E.P. for years. 

[Reganne]

21 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

 OK. I said a while back that we have gotten a lot of Sam eye rolls, scoffs, and acting embarrassed about and irritated with his brother. I also said that IMO, Sam gives the impression that he thinks he is better than his gluttonous, dumb, horny slob of a brother even though he loves him..." 

 The response was that no, these are brotherly things and Sam is teasing. 

IMO, you can't say Sam is teasing Dean when he regularly does it behind Dean's back. Watch the restaurant scene in The Memory Remains. Sam's condescending quips are when Dean is already over talking to the waitress. Sam is not smiling. This isn't light hearted brotherly banter. There is no attitude of "well that's just my goofy brother". It is more like why does my brother have to be a horny stupid idiot. They even cut back to Sam's face a second time just so Show makes sure we see Sam's response. I guess show thinks we should find it funny. I don't.  Sam's expression is really easy to read and it is pure exasperation. Sam is very condescending to Dean on a regular basis. This was just one of the latest.

That was me.  However, I didn't say that Sam has never dissed Dean or said anything mean to him.  I said those specific instances you mentioned I viewed as more of brotherly antics and that Dean gives as much as he gets.  Then I gave examples.  I've seen Dean roll his eyes at Sam too.  Most notably in Bad Day at Black Rock.

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

That was me.  However, I didn't say that Sam has never dissed Dean or said anything mean to him.  I said those specific instances you mentioned I viewed as more of brotherly antics and that Dean gives as much as he gets.  Then I gave examples.  I've seen Dean roll his eyes at Sam too.  Most notably in Bad Day at Black Rock.

Bad day at Black Rock was a Comedy. I just watched the Sam/ Dean scenes again so I could be sure I was right. There is only big eye roll directed at Sam was when he lost his shoe. And it sure wasn't  a condescending one. The rest werent  directed at Sam. Sam regularly does exasperated eye rolls, scoffs, expressions when he is standing behind Dean. That's not brotherly banter.  Another example of the I'm better, smarter attitude is the shock Sam displays when Dean says something that shows he is well read or knows about something that's not hunting related. He acts so surprised when Dean shows he isn't dumb. I think I'll do a rewatch of this season this summer and keep track. I can remember so many. They are almost weekly with  Sam. I'll keep track of any of Dean putting his brother down too but unfortunately pretty much all Dean has been allowed to do is talk his brother up (beautiful mind Sam) and ask Sam what the plan is.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

It would actually be nice if we could not only get rid of the half wit brother comment but also Sam's 1. I saved Bobby all alone

2. I want to die 3. I saved the world alone 4. Death is honored to reap me. There are a lot more but it's hard to do this on a phone.

I kinda do. First of all, for me, it's a Carver episode, and somewhere along the line, in my opinion, Carver decided it was okay for him to pretty much sacrifice Sam's character in order to further his 3 year goal - whatever that was. (I think, maybe, it was to show that the co-dependent relationship was justified, but to do that he had to show that "independence" was selfish and wrong... and so Sam's character was sacrificed to show that.) But in addition to that, this was a fever dream, hallucinatory delusion, whatever, so that alone would make me question things in it. Also, in my opinion, Bobby and Dean were representing the "angel" and "devil" on Sam's shoulder. Bobby was the "devil" (go ahead and die/leave your brother*) and Dean was the "angel" (live and go back to your brother). Typically in this kind of scenario, the angel and devil say things that the person might not believe or agree with at the current moment. It's arguing the extremes of both sides in an attempt to sway the person in the middle. Bobby as the "devil" was basically trying to persuade Sam that he was done, he didn't need to do anything else (even though we found out that wasn't true since we saw Sam still had unfinished business with his apology in season 11), so Sam could go ahead and let himself go. "Dean" arguing the other side was - literally in that case - trying to get Sam to fight to stay alive. "Death" was actually on Bobby's side - because, well Death - so he, of course, was arguing for the "you have done enough to save the world, you can just let go" side. Or that's how I saw it anyway. Your miles may vary.

However, it could be my own experience coloring things, too, in that I wouldn't want anyone to judge what I might say, do, or think in my dreams, because my dreams seem to be very much out of my control. A large majority of my dreams I remember are weird, violent, or sick and twisted. Usually all of the above. And so I can only hope that they don't represent me as a person.

* Based on what I think Carver's message was, dying and leaving his brother would be the "bad" side, hence "Bobby" was the devil on Sam's shoulder, and living and staying with family would be the "good" side, so "Dean" was the angel.

3 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

If your going to dismiss the halfwit remark because it was in Sam's head then you have to dismiss the " I'm ready to die" that was in Sam's head too. Last Dean knew from Sam in real life (at the church) is Sam wanted to live.

And I agree with this, because as I outlined above - fever dream, so I don't think anything in it counts as viable. Also I, personally, don't see Dean's quick decision to save Sam via angel intervention as a violation of Sam. I think it was entirely reckless, but it wasn't that awful, in my opinion, given what Dean knew at the time - i.e. that at the church, Sam chose to live. My beef was with what happened afterwards: that Dean didn't tell Sam what he did so that Sam could make his own choice when Sam was once again of sound mind - if not sound body. I know the argument is that Gadreel wouldn't let him, but Dean is smart... there were many was that Dean could have sneakily let Sam know what was going on, but he didn't, because he didn't want to chance Sam maybe making the decision to kick Gadreel out. And that was where I thought that Dean went wrong, myself... Not with the original letting Gadreel in, but that's just my opinion on that.

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

IMO, you can't say Sam is teasing Dean when he regularly does it behind Dean's back. Watch the restaurant scene in The Memory Remains. Sam's condescending quips are when Dean is already over talking to the waitress. Sam is not smiling. This isn't light hearted brotherly banter. There is no attitude of "well that's just my goofy brother". It is more like why does my brother have to be a horny stupid idiot. They even cut back to Sam's face a second time just so Show makes sure we see Sam's response. I guess show thinks we should find it funny. I don't.  Sam's expression is really easy to read and it is pure exasperation. Sam is very condescending to Dean on a regular basis. This was just one of the latest.

I think the show does think that Dean getting Sam exasperated is funny. You don't have to agree of course, but I don't think that necessarily means that the message is that Sam is being condescending. I personally don't think exasperated and condescending are equivalent.

And as for why Sam was not smiling - I'll have to take your word for that as I haven't rewatched yet - in recent years Sam is stereotypically boxed in as the "prissy" one. He's usually not allowed to smile at stuff like that or not be prissy. That's why I miss Robbie Thompson, because his Sam was often not so serious and instead less prissy. Example: "Baby" were instead of being all "Dean" and exasperated at Dean's teasing and playing "Night Moves," Robbie Thompson's Sam embraced it and played along. But just as often, Sam is sometimes written as joyless and/or prissy.

I also disagree that Sam is condescending to Dean on a regular basis. And my reasoning has always been that I find it hard to think that someone who doesn't respect someone else would routinely depend on that person for their very life and do so with no reservations. And that's the thing that counts for me. To do that, in my opinion, Sam must think that Dean is smart, dependable, and brave. If every once in a while SSam rolls his eyes at Dean being a horndog, is that really all that bad? It's not like Sam does it all the time (in my opinion anyway). I can remember just as many times when Sam would encourage Dean to go out and enjoy his extracurricular activities - like when he smiled at Dean having fun with the "Doublemint twins" * or he encouraged Dean to "release the Kraken" on "Unattached Drifters Christmas." Dean scoffs at or wrinkles his nose at - or at least he used to - Sam knowing about fairy tales, and plants, and other "girly stuff" too. That's just little stuff, in my opinion. The big stuff - depending on each other and respecting each other in the big things - to me - says a whole lot more than some momentary irritation where Sam might just be having a bad day that day. I personally don't think that should define Sam as a character, but obviously your opinion varies on that, and I accept that.

* Until he ended up seeing it close and personal - and even then he joked in his own Sam way about it.

23 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

... but unfortunately pretty much all Dean has been allowed to do is talk his brother up (beautiful mind Sam) and ask Sam what the plan is.

 Above, I indirectly refer to a few examples of the opposite*... and generally, it is Sam who asks Dean what the plan is.

* Dean even once commented to Bobby that the apocalypse in season 5 was all Sam's fault. (In "Fallen Idols") Definitely not talking Sam up. And, in my opinion, the "Beautiful Mind" comment was as much a commentary on Sam's shaky mental state as anything else. *shrug* But again, your miles may vary.

For an example of condescending, for me a good example would be "Abandon All Hope" when Dean says "Sam Winchester having trust issues with a demon. Well, better late than never."

Edited May 9, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Idahoforspn]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I kinda do. First of all, for me, it's a Carver episode, and somewhere along the line, in my opinion, Carver decided it was okay for him to pretty much sacrifice Sam's character in order to further his 3 year goal - whatever that was. (I think, maybe, it was to show that the co-dependent relationship was justified, but to do that he had to show that "independence" was selfish and wrong... and so Sam's character was sacrificed to show that.) But in addition to that, this was a fever dream, hallucinatory delusion, whatever, so that alone would make me question things in it. Also, in my opinion, Bobby and Dean were representing the "angel" and "devil" on Sam's shoulder. Bobby was the "devil" (go ahead and die/leave your brother*) and Dean was the "angel" (live and go back to your brother). Typically in this kind of scenario, the angel and devil say things that the person might not believe or agree with at the current moment. It's arguing the extremes of both sides in an attempt to sway the person in the middle. Bobby as the "devil" was basically trying to persuade Sam that he was done, he didn't need to do anything else (even though we found out that wasn't true since we saw Sam still had unfinished business with his apology in season 11), so Sam could go ahead and let himself go. "Dean" arguing the other side was - literally in that case - trying to get Sam to fight to stay alive. "Death" was actually on Bobby's side - because, well Death - so he, of course, was arguing for the "you have done enough to save the world, you can just let go" side. Or that's how I saw it anyway. Your miles may vary.

However, it could be my own experience coloring things, too, in that I wouldn't want anyone to judge what I might say, do, or think in my dreams, because my dreams seem to be very much out of my control. A large majority of my dreams I remember are weird, violent, or sick and twisted. Usually all of the above. And so I can only hope that they don't represent me as a person.

* Based on what I think Carver's message was, dying and leaving his brother would be the "bad" side, hence "Bobby" was the devil on Sam's shoulder, and living and staying with family would be the "good" side, so "Dean" was the angel.

And I agree with this, because as I outlined above - fever dream, so I don't think anything in it counts as viable. Also I, personally, don't see Dean's quick decision to save Sam via angel intervention as a violation of Sam. I think it was entirely reckless, but it wasn't that awful, in my opinion, given what Dean knew at the time - i.e. that at the church, Sam chose to live. My beef was with what happened afterwards: that Dean didn't tell Sam what he did so that Sam could make his own choice when Sam was once again of sound mind - if not sound body. I know the argument is that Gadreel wouldn't let him, but Dean is smart... there were many was that Dean could have sneakily let Sam know what was going on, but he didn't, because he didn't want to chance Sam maybe making the decision to kick Gadreel out. And that was where I thought that Dean went wrong, myself... Not with the original letting Gadreel in, but that's just my opinion on that.

I think the show does think that Dean getting Sam exasperated is funny. You don't have to agree of course, but I don't think that necessarily means that the message is that Sam is being condescending. I personally don't think exasperated and condescending are equivalent.

And as for why Sam was not smiling - I'll have to take your word for that as I haven't rewatched yet - in recent years Sam is stereotypically boxed in as the "prissy" one. He's usually not allowed to smile at stuff like that or not be prissy. That's why I miss Robbie Thompson, because his Sam was often not so serious and instead less prissy. Example: "Baby" were instead of being all "Dean" and exasperated at Dean's teasing and playing "Night Moves," Robbie Thompson's Sam embraced it and played along. But just as often, Sam is sometimes written as joyless and/or prissy.

I also disagree that Sam is condescending to Dean on a regular basis. And my reasoning has always been that I find it hard to think that someone who doesn't respect someone else would routinely depend on that person for their very life and do so with no reservations. And that's the thing that counts for me. To do that, in my opinion, Sam must think that Dean is smart, dependable, and brave. If every once in a while SSam rolls his eyes at Dean being a horndog, is that really all that bad? It's not like Sam does it all the time (in my opinion anyway). I can remember just as many times when Sam would encourage Dean to go out and enjoy his extracurricular activities - like when he smiled at Dean having fun with the "Doublemint twins" * or he encouraged Dean to "release the Kraken" on "Unattached Drifters Christmas." Dean scoffs at or wrinkles his nose at - or at least he used to - Sam knowing about fairy tales, and plants, and other "girly stuff" too. That's just little stuff, in my opinion. The big stuff - depending on each other and respecting each other in the big things - to me - says a whole lot more than some momentary irritation where Sam might just be having a bad day that day. I personally don't think that should define Sam as a character, but obviously your opinion varies on that, and I accept that.

* Until he ended up seeing it close and personal - and even then he joked in his own Sam way about it.

 Above, I indirectly refer to a few examples of the opposite*... and generally, it is Sam who asks Dean what the plan is.

* Dean even once commented to Bobby that the apocalypse in season 5 was all Sam's fault. (In "Fallen Idols") Definitely not talking Sam up. And, in my opinion, the "Beautiful Mind" comment was as much a commentary on Sam's shaky mental state as anything else. *shrug* But again, your miles may vary.

What was Sam's shaky mental status two episodes ago? The beautiful minds was from Dean regarding all the complicated researching figuring out the Nephilim was due May 18th. It could be argued Dean was shakier because he was worried about Cass.

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And it sure wasn't  a condescending one.

Could not "condescending" be in the eye of the beholder?

Personally, I find Sam's eye rolls on par with Dean's "such a nerd" and "that's why you never get laid" comments. Just because they're family doesn't mean they always have to appreciate the other's behavior. I love my sisters, but it doesn't stop me from wishing they could handle certain things differently, from time to time. And, I'm quite certain they wish I wouldn't behave as I do, from time to time. That's normal sibling behavior, IMO.

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

What was Sam's shaky mental status two episodes ago? The beautiful minds was from Dean regarding all the complicated researching figuring out the Nephilim was due May 18th.

Oh, sorry. I missed that reference. As I said, I haven't watched the last two episodes a second time yet.

I thought you were referring to the quote in "Hello, Cruel World" - one of my favorite quotes actually - when Dean is leaving Bobby a message saying that if Bobby is dead, he's going to strap his "Beautiful Mind" brother into Baby and drive them both off a pier. Considering that Dean literally had to talk Sam out of shooting at nothing just before he left that message, Sam's mental stability at the time was very much in question.

My apologies.

[Idahoforspn]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I kinda do. First of all, for me, it's a Carver episode, and somewhere along the line, in my opinion, Carver decided it was okay for him to pretty much sacrifice Sam's character in order to further his 3 year goal - whatever that was. (I think, maybe, it was to show that the co-dependent relationship was justified, but to do that he had to show that "independence" was selfish and wrong... and so Sam's character was sacrificed to show that.) But in addition to that, this was a fever dream, hallucinatory delusion, whatever, so that alone would make me question things in it. Also, in my opinion, Bobby and Dean were representing the "angel" and "devil" on Sam's shoulder. Bobby was the "devil" (go ahead and die/leave your brother*) and Dean was the "angel" (live and go back to your brother). Typically in this kind of scenario, the angel and devil say things that the person might not believe or agree with at the current moment. It's arguing the extremes of both sides in an attempt to sway the person in the middle. Bobby as the "devil" was basically trying to persuade Sam that he was done, he didn't need to do anything else (even though we found out that wasn't true since we saw Sam still had unfinished business with his apology in season 11), so Sam could go ahead and let himself go. "Dean" arguing the other side was - literally in that case - trying to get Sam to fight to stay alive. "Death" was actually on Bobby's side - because, well Death - so he, of course, was arguing for the "you have done enough to save the world, you can just let go" side. Or that's how I saw it anyway. Your miles may vary.

However, it could be my own experience coloring things, too, in that I wouldn't want anyone to judge what I might say, do, or think in my dreams, because my dreams seem to be very much out of my control. A large majority of my dreams I remember are weird, violent, or sick and twisted. Usually all of the above. And so I can only hope that they don't represent me as a person.

* Based on what I think Carver's message was, dying and leaving his brother would be the "bad" side, hence "Bobby" was the devil on Sam's shoulder, and living and staying with family would be the "good" side, so "Dean" was the angel.

And I agree with this, because as I outlined above - fever dream, so I don't think anything in it counts as viable. Also I, personally, don't see Dean's quick decision to save Sam via angel intervention as a violation of Sam. I think it was entirely reckless, but it wasn't that awful, in my opinion, given what Dean knew at the time - i.e. that at the church, Sam chose to live. My beef was with what happened afterwards: that Dean didn't tell Sam what he did so that Sam could make his own choice when Sam was once again of sound mind - if not sound body. I know the argument is that Gadreel wouldn't let him, but Dean is smart... there were many was that Dean could have sneakily let Sam know what was going on, but he didn't, because he didn't want to chance Sam maybe making the decision to kick Gadreel out. And that was where I thought that Dean went wrong, myself... Not with the original letting Gadreel in, but that's just my opinion on that.

I think the show does think that Dean getting Sam exasperated is funny. You don't have to agree of course, but I don't think that necessarily means that the message is that Sam is being condescending. I personally don't think exasperated and condescending are equivalent.

And as for why Sam was not smiling - I'll have to take your word for that as I haven't rewatched yet - in recent years Sam is stereotypically boxed in as the "prissy" one. He's usually not allowed to smile at stuff like that or not be prissy. That's why I miss Robbie Thompson, because his Sam was often not so serious and instead less prissy. Example: "Baby" were instead of being all "Dean" and exasperated at Dean's teasing and playing "Night Moves," Robbie Thompson's Sam embraced it and played along. But just as often, Sam is sometimes written as joyless and/or prissy.

I also disagree that Sam is condescending to Dean on a regular basis. And my reasoning has always been that I find it hard to think that someone who doesn't respect someone else would routinely depend on that person for their very life and do so with no reservations. And that's the thing that counts for me. To do that, in my opinion, Sam must think that Dean is smart, dependable, and brave. If every once in a while SSam rolls his eyes at Dean being a horndog, is that really all that bad? It's not like Sam does it all the time (in my opinion anyway). I can remember just as many times when Sam would encourage Dean to go out and enjoy his extracurricular activities - like when he smiled at Dean having fun with the "Doublemint twins" * or he encouraged Dean to "release the Kraken" on "Unattached Drifters Christmas." Dean scoffs at or wrinkles his nose at - or at least he used to - Sam knowing about fairy tales, and plants, and other "girly stuff" too. That's just little stuff, in my opinion. The big stuff - depending on each other and respecting each other in the big things - to me - says a whole lot more than some momentary irritation where Sam might just be having a bad day that day. I personally don't think that should define Sam as a character, but obviously your opinion varies on that, and I accept that.

* Until he ended up seeing it close and personal - and even then he joked in his own Sam way about it.

 Above, I indirectly refer to a few examples of the opposite*... and generally, it is Sam who asks Dean what the plan is.

* Dean even once commented to Bobby that the apocalypse in season 5 was all Sam's fault. (In "Fallen Idols") Definitely not talking Sam up. And, in my opinion, the "Beautiful Mind" comment was as much a commentary on Sam's shaky mental state as anything else. *shrug* But again, your miles may vary.

For an example of condescending, for me a good example would be "Abandon All Hope" when Dean says "Sam Winchester having trust issues with a demon. Well, better late than never."

I was referring to this season on Dean always asking Sam what the plan is or what should we do. And at least Dean made the comment on trusting a demon to his face.

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh, sorry. I missed that reference. As I said, I haven't watched the last two episodes a second time yet.

I thought you were referring to the quote in "Hello, Cruel World" - one of my favorite quotes actually - when Dean is leaving Bobby a message saying that if Bobby is dead, he's going to strap his "Beautiful Mind" brother into Baby and drive them both off a pier. Considering that Dean literally had to talk Sam out of shooting at nothing just before he left that message, Sam's mental stability at the time was very much in question.

My apologies.

Ok. I was confused. You are definitely right on that one.

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

And at least Dean made the comment on trusting a demon to his face.

I'm not sure how that's better, myself, but okay.

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Ok. I was confused. You are definitely right on that one.

No problem. Entirely my fault. I totally missed the most recent reference somehow... also since I'm a weirdo who loves season 7, I tend to see things with a bias towards that season... and other seasons I love.

And personally, I actually love that quote (as I said) and weirdly find it kind of endearing that Dean calls hallucinating Sam "Beautiful Mind" and that he'd consider committing murder suicide if things got any worse... how twisted am I? Or maybe it's Jensen's perfect delivery of that line that sold it to me as endearing rather than creepy.

When it comes to this show, I'm complicated. ; )

[auntvi]

41 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

trying to get Sam to fight to stay alive.

Dean lost my sympathy when he decided to - inexplicably to me - punch Sam out. The beating at the end of s10.23 was also inexplicable to me. But then I'm an old lady. YMMV

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, AwesomO4000 said:

No problem. Entirely my fault. I totally missed the most recent reference somehow... also since I'm a weirdo who loves season 7, I tend to see things with a bias towards that season... and other seasons I love.

And personally, I actually love that quote (as I said) and weirdly find it kind of endearing that Dean calls hallucinating Sam "Beautiful Mind" and that he'd consider committing murder suicide if things got any worse... how twisted am I? Or maybe it's Jensen's perfect delivery of that line that sold it to me as endearing rather than creepy.

When it comes to this show, I'm complicated. ; )

I'm with you. I thought it was a very touching scene. See, we can agree on some stuff and disagree on other things. It's actually good we all don't see things the same way all the time. How boring would that be?

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No problem. Entirely my fault. I totally missed the most recent reference somehow... also since I'm a weirdo who loves season 7, I tend to see things with a bias towards that season... and other seasons I love.

And personally, I actually love that quote (as I said) and weirdly find it kind of endearing that Dean calls hallucinating Sam "Beautiful Mind" and that he'd consider committing murder suicide if things got any worse... how twisted am I? Or maybe it's Jensen's perfect delivery of that line that sold it to me as endearing rather than creepy.

When it comes to this show, I'm complicated. ; )

I love season 7 too. I felt so bad for Dean at that moment he had just had about all anyone could take, losing Bobby would have been too much. Jensen's delivery was spot on.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, auntvi said:

Dean lost my sympathy when he decided to - inexplicably to me - punch Sam out. The beating at the end of s10.23 was also inexplicable to me. But then I'm an old lady. YMMV

Not saying you shouldn't feel this way,  I'm curious why that caused you to lose sympathy for Dean when that was Sam's brain making up what Dean would do to get Sam to fight for his own life.

In 10.23, Dean was trying to convince Sam that he had to die whilst Dean needed to be sent into the ether so the Darkness can't be released. Sam was refusing and was trying to convince Dean to see it his way, so he punched Dean which gave MoC!Dean a reason to unleash his bloodlust onto to Sam. It was Sam putting Mary's pictures in front of Dean that got Dean to stop and why Dean killed Death instead of Sam.

[Idahoforspn]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That's the problem IMO with that coma!Scape. Which aspects are to be trusted as to what Sam really wanted or thought?

If the Show didn't intend us to take the dreamscape as accurate they 1) wouldn't have written it or 2) they would have given us a later line, scene or something casting doubt on it. Instead they doubled down for half the season on the I'm ready to die especially.   We were also shown the dreamscape was to be trusted when Gadreel showed Dean the scene between Sam and Death. And Sam confirms it multiple times later on. Comparing  Sam's  dreams to our own doesn't really work because our dreams aren't scripted by a writer trying to establish a storyline. The Show told us what Sam was experiencing in his head was important and represented the true situation. When the Show puts the dreamscape on the screen and never refutes it, personally, that establishes it for me. . 

[auntvi]

You're right. I was thinking too literally about Sam's coma dream or whatever it was. Whoever Dean represented in the dream, I wasn't buying his arguments and the punch was too much - for me - I don't like yelling and fights and always feel queasy watching Sam & Dean fight. 

I'll take my psychoanalysis somewhere else. I'm too tired to pull my thoughts together right now. ??

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

If the Show didn't intend us to take the dreamscape as accurate they 1) wouldn't have written it or 2) they would have given us a later line, scene or something casting doubt on it. Instead they doubled down for half the season on the I'm ready to die especially.   We were also shown the dreamscape was to be trusted when Gadreel showed Dean the scene between Sam and Death. And Sam confirms it multiple times later on. Comparing  Sam's  dreams to our own doesn't really work because our dreams aren't scripted by a writer trying to establish a storyline. The Show told us what Sam was experiencing in his head was important and represented the true situation. When the Show puts the dreamscape on the screen and never refutes it, personally, that establishes it for me. . 

I wasn't comparing Sam's coma!scape to actual dreams. That was someone else. 

I have always taken it as Sam's own brain trying to determine if he should live or die and that in the end Sam didn't want to die in the church and he didn't want to  and didn't think he should die in his coma!scape  because he still had the chance to go with not!Death in his mind.

[Wayward Son]

If we bear in mind the fact that a fans perception of the show is very different to the networks i.e the fans view it as a creative endeavour while the network view it as a product to make money from via ads and other revenue then Jeremy Carver is the post Kripke show runner the CW would welcome back with open arms. IMO the show runners performed as follows. 

 

Sera Gamble

Creatively: She was a failure! She made the mistake of tailoring the show to suit the needs of a very small, but very loud sub-section of fandom. Not only did she succeed in alienating other sections of the fandom such as the Team Free Will fans, the Castiel fans and the Dean fans in the process, but she made the fundamental mistake of alienating the general audience too. There's a reason few outside of the extreme "brother only" subsection and the Sam leaning fans remember her tenure with particular fondness. 

Business: Here she proved to be a failure too mainly due to her alienation of the general audience in favour of appeasing one section of online fandom. A lot of people give her leeway because of the move to Friday night, which is true to a certain extent, but if one looks at the ratings the first five episodes of season 6 averaged a 1.1 rating on a Friday night and her first season averaged 0.99, while her final five episodes of season seven aired 0.7 and the overall final season 0.72. This shows people were willing to follow the show to Friday nights. They just didn't like what Gamble was giving them and that resulted in a 37% drop between the first quarter of season 6 and the last quarter of season 7.

 

Jeremy Carver 

Creatively: With the exception of a few potentially interesting ideas like the trials and the Mark of Cain I'd consider him a failure on this front too. He put the plot before characters, which resulted in poor characterisation and no sufficient attempts were made to explain why the characters were behaving in such an unusual manner. Furthermore, he practically destroyed the canon that came before him resulting in what I commonly refer to as LOL!Canon. In addition to this, the plot lines of his seasons often came across as rehashes of earlier seasons. 

Business: For all his creative faults the man was a success from a business viewpoint. The shows ratings went from strength to strength throughout the course of seasons 8, 9 and the first half of season 10. They did fall slightly for the latter part of 10, but they stabilised for 11 and remained something the CW could be happy with. IMO a part of this was the move back to mid week and a part of it was he learnt from Sera Gamble's mistake. For all his creative faults, which would serve to irritate the nitpicky fandom, he knew how to create storylines that would appeal to the average audience who were only watching for an hour of entertainment and wouldn't mind things like tweaks to the shows lore. He was also smarter when it came to fandom and made sure to include scenes that would appeal to the team free will fans, the Cas fans, the Crowley fans, the fans of those who prefer the brothers to have others to interact with, those who like big mytharcs, those who are primarily Dean fans, those who are primarily Sam fans and of course those who were fond of the brothers bond and those who wanted only them. At times I feel this served to create an inconsistent narratives, but nonetheless he still gave something to keep the varying fandom interest in continuing. 

 

Andrew Dabb

Creatively: This one is much harder to judge for the simple fact he has only aired one season so far, while the others have aired their entire tenure. So far I wouldn't label him an out and our failure, but he certainly has his flaws! In particular he needs to strengthen his writing of the relationship between the brothers which has come across as quite lacklustre this season. 

Business: I'm not too sure how this one should be viewed. On the one hand, he's had a drop and a new series low in the demo. On the other hand, the shows drop has been rather mild when compared to other CW shows like the Flash and Arrow. I'd imagine from a business viewpoint the CW probably aren't very happy, but at the same time they aren't overly worried just yet. 

 

11 hours ago, SueB said:

Just today Jennifer Morrison announced she's leaving Once Upon a Time.  And I thought "to do WHAT?" It's incredibly difficult to find good steady work. And everyone wants to be a George Clooney (TV star turned movie star) or Christ Pratt.  It just doesn't happen very often.  And Pratt left his show AFTER his movie career took off.

I actually feel the opposite when I hear of actresses like Jennifer Morrison, or writers like Eric Kripke who make the decision to quit when they're no longer feeling it / feel they've told the story they want to tell! To me that displays artistic integrity and an interest in doing justice to the fans who've been following the show all along. It is better to end things on a creative high than allow it to stagger to an excruciating finish. 

For me there is nothing worse than actors / writers who are happy to stay with a show and throw out sub-standard work for the sake of a steady paycheck. I instantly lose a lot of respect for them when I get the impression this is the case. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't comparing Sam's coma!scape to actual dreams. That was someone else. 

I have always taken it as Sam's own brain trying to determine if he should live or die and that in the end Sam didn't want to die in the church and he didn't want to  and didn't think he should die in his coma!scape  because he still had the chance to go with not!Death in his mind.

Woops. Sorry!!

[AwesomO4000]

45 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

He was also smarter when it came to fandom and made sure to include scenes that would appeal to the team free will fans, the Cas fans, the Crowley fans, the fans of those who prefer the brothers to have others to interact with, those who like big mytharcs, those who are primarily Dean fans, those who are primarily Sam fans and of course those who were fond of the brothers bond and those who wanted only them.

Warning: Opinion only and potentially rant ahead. Please proceed with caution... Well ratings may have been better - though I couldn't say how much of that was the move away from Friday - but I personally disagree with this. I enjoyed Team Free Will, but I am a bit more of a Sam-leaning fan.  I disagree strongly that Carver included scenes that appealed to me... at least not for the majority of seasons 8 and 9. Season 10 seemed better, but ultimately also was disappointing due to the ending. Season 8 was the only time in all of the show's history that I stopped watching and strongly considered not coming back, and I'd been watching since the pilot.

I much preferred season 6 and 7 and thought that the storylines were some of the more creative of the series. I enjoyed Castiel's storyline in season 6 for reasons I've explained elsewhere (I liked the character development, especially Cas' resulting closeness with Sam). I liked the one overall story arc of the Leviathans in season 7 (rather than seasons broken up into halves that didn't seem to mesh as a whole - like season 8 especially, but season 9 also), and I enjoyed the dark comedic tone of season 7. I thought Dick Roman was great. I liked the many introduced secondary characters: Kevin, Charlie, Frank, Garth, more Jodi Mills, etc. even Chet, the leviathan. (To me there seemed to be more recurring characters than we got later in season 8, actually, where we had Amelia (ugh) and Benny, and Castiel... sometimes, but Team Free Will spent very little time together.) And I thought Crowley was awful in season 8 - with an abundance of torture porn. I liked him much better in season 6.

I thought the writing was better in season 7, too. And I liked Sam and Dean getting along like they did in season 6.5 through 7 rather than at each other's throats like they were for the first half of season 8 and much of season 9. I can think of more of what I consider classic episodes from season 6 and 7, too than I can 8 and 9: The French Mistake, Slash Fiction, Frontierland, Time After Time, Weekend At Bobby's... all in my top 25 episodes of the entire show.

But as you say, it's based on opinion. I don't consider myself a "brother's only" fan, and I enjoyed season 7 tremendously and didn't feel alienated at all. I felt alienated by season 8 which insisted on giving me characters I didn't recognize, soap opera storylines - the soldier husband who wasn't really dead plot was right out of daytime TV or a bad Lifetime movie if you ask me - and manufactured angst. I hated it.

I get that opinions vary, and I didn't mean to sound ranty if I did, but I just wanted to give my opinion. Since I don't consider myself a "brothers only" viewer, I disagree that Sera Gamble's era as show runner alienated me. I personally liked it a lot, and season 7 is in my top 5 seasons of the show - above season 4 and 3 even... Season 6 is above season 4 and 3 for me even. So definitely miles vary. (My top 5 seasons in order: 2, 5, 1, 11, 7 with 6 coming in ironically at #6, then season 3, 10, 4, 9, 8). I don't know yet where 12 will fall, but it'll likely still be ahead of 8 and 9 for me.

Sorry about that... I guess I needed to get that off my chest.

[Wayward Son]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I get that opinions vary, and I didn't mean to sound ranty if I did, but I just wanted to give my opinion. Since I don't consider myself a "brothers only" viewer, I disagree that Sera Gamble's era as show runner alienated me. I personally liked it a lot, and season 7 is in my top 5 seasons of the show - above season 4 and 3 even... Season 6 is above season 4 and 3 for me even. So definitely miles vary. (My top 5 seasons in order: 2, 5, 1, 11, 7 with 6 coming in ironically at #6, then season 3, 10, 4, 9, 8). I don't know yet where 12 will fall, but it'll likely still be ahead of 8 and 9 for me.

Sorry about that... I guess I needed to get that off my chest.

To be fair I did say there were few outside of that faction that she hadn't alienated i.e there were some not alienated there just weren't many IMO. I'm going to edit my post to include the Sam leaning fans as a group she didn't alienate though ;) . But the fact remains she managed to alienate a number of fans including the Castiel fans, the Bobby fans, the overall team free will fans, hell she even alienated lovers of the impala by attempting to strip the show back to the brother only utopia the brother only crowd are calling out for. The appearance of most of the characters you mention as recurring are bare minimum and two of them (Charlie and Kevin) were only introduced at the very end of her tenure. Additionally, I've said in the past, I suspect a lot of the final few episodes of season seven were heavily influenced by Carver. As shown by the sudden return of side characters from 17x18 on after their absence from the rest of the season and the sudden return to the Angel and demons storyline. A storyline she had taken care to move on from when she introduced the Levithians. 

In regards to the writing quality I will concede that her writing was better when it came to the brothers. Sera Gamble did care about them both and it showed in her writing. However, her writing for everyone else was appalling. She had no interest in the other characters and it showed IMO. For instance Bobby was grossly misused when he was made into a ghost. This was a man who had always advocated moving on when your time came and wouldn't have wanted to become the thing he spent his life hunting.

Then there is Castiel who is the worst victim of her tenure. As far as I'm concerned her writing for him was filled with outright malice and attempts at character assassination. She went and turned a protagonist into an antagonist with little explanation during her first year in charge of the show. If that wasn't bad enough she then unceremoniously killed him off to avoid having him on the show for most of the season. Then when he does return he's quickly dumped into a mental hospital as a form of escapism and used for comic relief.  At best he's allowed to assist in a kill which ultimately went to Dean rather than him. It is this lack of follow through that will make me, as a Castiel leaning fan, eternally resent the woman's treatment of him while acting as show runner. If one wants to turn a beloved character bad then they need to have the gumption to follow it through with a proper redemption arc. When I compare how they handle  Sam's redemption in seven five, a time when we get to see his daily struggles, his quest to atone, his quest to reearn Dean's  trust, to Castiel in season seven the writing falls very short. A few flashy sequences is poor writing and a cop out in comparison to truly exploring the psyche of someone who did what Castiel did and showing his day to day struggles to atone. My complaints are further strengthened by the fact Misha revealed at a con that Ben Edlund had to fight hard against her so we could get an episode showing us Castiel's motivation. If it weren't for Edlund she wouldn't even had the graciousness to show us to properly show us why Cas did what he did. 

            

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I enjoyed Team Free Will, but I am a bit more of a Sam-leaning fan.  I disagree strongly that Carver included scenes that appealed to me... at least not for the majority of seasons 8 and 9. Season 10 seemed better, but ultimately also was disappointing due to the ending. Season 8 was the only time in all of the show's history that I stopped watching and strongly considered not coming back, and I'd been watching since the pilot.

While I would agree with the fact that the early Carver years weren't good for Sam I think he did make some attempts at appeasing the fan leaning fans like yourself. For instance he handed the trial storyline to Sam allowing him to play a pivotal role in the myth arc of the season (at least until the trials were abandoned but that's Carver for you) and further efforts were placed in showing him interacting with others such as Castiel and Jody during season 9. Furthermore, the finales of seasons 8-10 usually included a big scene where Sam and Dean reiterate how much the other means to them. So I'd say overall the Carver era was beyond awful for Sam and I can understand why it would have been too little too late for many Sam leaning fans, but he did attempt to throw the odd crumb in the direction of Sam fans. This is a lot more than can be said for Gamble who threw most characters who weren't Sam and Dean under a bus. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Reganne]

9 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

Bad day at Black Rock was a Comedy. I just watched the Sam/ Dean scenes again so I could be sure I was right. There is only big eye roll directed at Sam was when he lost his shoe. And it sure wasn't  a condescending one. The rest werent  directed at Sam. Sam regularly does exasperated eye rolls, scoffs, expressions when he is standing behind Dean. That's not brotherly banter.  Another example of the I'm better, smarter attitude is the shock Sam displays when Dean says something that shows he is well read or knows about something that's not hunting related. He acts so surprised when Dean shows he isn't dumb. I think I'll do a rewatch of this season this summer and keep track. I can remember so many. They are almost weekly with  Sam. I'll keep track of any of Dean putting his brother down too but unfortunately pretty much all Dean has been allowed to do is talk his brother up (beautiful mind Sam) and ask Sam what the plan is.

The scene with Dean picking up the waitress was played for comedy as well.  In fact, the pick up line he gave her was really bad.  Eye roll inducing one could say.  Just because an episode isn't fully comedy, doesn't mean they aren't going for comedy in their delivery.  The show is constantly adding comedy to more serious episodes.  This is nothing new.  I don't generally pay attention to which brother is doing what to the other.  I do remember something where Claire says their new friend Mick is Lame.... to which Dean says something along the lines of "He's Sam's new best friend." AKA Sam's lame.  Most of the banter Dean directs at Sam is that he's a nerd, lame, girly etc. Now I don't take these things to seriously, and I have no problem with the banter between the brothers, but it's definitely not just one sided.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Reganne

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

For all his creative faults, which would serve to irritate the nitpicky fandom, he knew how to create storylines that would appeal to the average audience who were only watching for an hour of entertainment and wouldn't mind things like tweaks to the shows lore.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. I thought the show was never more boring and lackluster as it was under Carver's tutelage. I found nothing appealing in his storylines and IMO they lacked any sort of creative nuance. I almost quit watching the show altogether in S9 because it was not only offending my intelligence, but boring the living daylights out of me too boot. Not that Dabb's done much better in that department, but the show isn't so overly and unnecessarily melodramatic and dumbed down right now, so I can live with it.

IMO, Gamble was far more creatively successful simply because she was actually creative in her approach.

As far as ratings go, I think a lot of the ratings dip had nothing to do with what Gamble did with the show, but a large chunk of the audience went away with Kripke's departure before they ever saw a minute of S6. She was the rebound showrunner most people didn't take seriously and figured she'd be gone quickly, so why even bother to get to know her. 

With Carver, there was not only this renewed hope that he might be the "one", but Supernatural had now become available for streaming on Netflix during S7 and opened up the show to a whole new audience. I think that's the biggest factor to the ratings going up under Carver, myself. It really didn't seem like fandom was any more pleased with the story under Carver than Gamble, but they did take him more seriously from the onset.

So, I look at it this way: Was everyone happy under Gamble? Not at all. Was everyone happy under Carver? God no. Is everyone happy now under Dabb? Oh Hell no. But at least I can respect Gamble's effort in trying to find a different well to tap, even if the holes ran dry quickly.

With Carver, I felt like he just kept dipping into the same old well over and over and over again. He just slapped a new label on it and tried to package it as some super healthy water never before seen--except it was the same old water they'd always been bottling, only slightly dirtier due to the well starting to run dry.

With Dabb, I currently just feel sorry for the guy. He's like the little bro who gets called back home to run the family business after his older siblings sold off all the assets and tapped the well completely dry. I'm not sure if he could've done better with the business than his siblings--the market was just different than it when his dad started bottling that water--but at least he's affable and seems to care about what happens to the employees.

Hee, I do love a tortured metaphor--and I got two in one post! ;)

[Demented Daisy]

I have zero interest in a possible Carver return because his primary style was, IMO:

• Drama for the sake of drama.
• Shock for the sake of shock that wasn't particularly shocking.

His intent, it appeared to me, was making sure that people were talking about the show.  I prefer a show runner who wants to tell a good story, even if they're not 100% successful.  I never felt like Carver was trying to make a great show that people would talk about because they love it so much or because it was so good.  I always felt like Carver knew that the fans would follow the show no matter what, so he did some things that would generate outrage, get people talking, and potentially draw in new viewers.

But mileage varies.

[Idahoforspn]

44 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The scene with Dean picking up the waitress was played for comedy as well.  In fact, the pick up line he gave her was really bad.  Eye roll inducing one could say.  Just because an episode isn't fully comedy, doesn't mean they aren't going for comedy in their delivery.  The show is constantly adding comedy to more serious episodes.  This is nothing new.  I don't generally pay attention to which brother is doing what to the other.  I do remember something where Claire says their new friend Mick is Lame.... to which Dean says something along the lines of "He's Sam's new best friend." AKA Sam's lame.  Most of the banter Dean directs at Sam is that he's a nerd, lame, girly etc. Now I don't take these things to seriously, and I have no problem with the banter between the brothers, but it's definitely not just one sided.

I suspect also that Show "think" its funny. Maybe Jared just isn't as good with his comedy. Sam comes off looking bad, not funny IMO. As is the norm for these kind of things, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Demented Daisy]

9 hours ago, Idahoforspn said:

I'll keep track of any of Dean putting his brother down too but unfortunately pretty much all Dean has been allowed to do is talk his brother up (beautiful mind Sam)

You do understand that wasn't intended as a compliment, right?  He meant it in the same way he meant it in season 7.

Have you seen the movie Dean is referencing?

[Myrelle]

46 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, I look at it this way: Was everyone happy under Gamble? Not at all. Was everyone happy under Carver? God no. Is everyone happy now under Dabb? Oh Hell no. But at least I can respect Gamble's effort in trying to find a different well to tap, even if the holes ran dry quickly.

Everyone wasn't even happy under Kripke, but he had a lot of great help from Kim Manners and John Shiban also(when I see what Shiban has done since he's left-Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul-I'm convinced that he played a very large part in the success of the first 3-4 seasons of this show, too). He had David Nutter at the very beginning, and he had some better than decent writers in Humphris and Raelle Tucker, too.

And I respect Carver for doing the bolded part also by finally learning that giving Dean the myth-arc in s9-10 would indeed generate new viewers which prompted the move by the network from the Friday death slot. And he also tried to break the cycle of co-dependency even though the execution of the attempt was a disaster.

Gamble tried to turn Sam into Dean, IMO. Dabb is trying to turn Sam into Dean also. Those were their biggest mistakes, IMO. Dabb also tried something new with the BMOL sl, but he cancelled that attempt out with the old and moldy Lucifer storyline.

IA that all of them, Kripke, Gamble, Carver, and Dabb are ALL pretty much cut from the same cloth. I just think that Kripke was blessed with much better support than all of his successors, but when that was taken away even his weaknesses became more apparent and were the same. None of them know/knew the meaning of the word or idea of balance where it concerned the writing for the two leads actors, IMO.  And that has been biggest problem with all of the showrunners on this show, IMO.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Wayward Son]

4 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Everyone wasn't even happy under Kripke, but he had a lot of great help from Kim Manners and John Shiban also(when I see what Shiban has done since he's left-Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul-I'm convinced that he played a very large part in the success of the first 3-4 seasons of this show, too. 

And I respect Carver for doing the bolded part also by finally learning that giving Dean the myth-arc in s9-10 would indeed generate new viewers which prompted the move by the network from the Friday death slot. And he also tried to break the cycle of co-dependency even though the execution of the attempt was a disaster. Gamble tried to turn Sam into Dean, IMO. Dabb is trying to turn Sam into Dean also. Those were their biggest mistakes, IMO. Dabb also tried something new with the BMOL sl, but he cancelled that attempt out with the old and moldy Lucifer storyline.

IA that Gamble, Carver, and Dabb are all cut from the same cloth. And I think that Kripke was blessed with much better support, but when that was taken away even his weaknesses  became more apparent. None of them know/knew the meaning of the word or idea of balance where it concerned the writing for the two leads actors, IMO.  And that has been biggest problem with all of the showrunners on this show, IMO.

Actually it didn't. The move from Friday occurred at the start of season eight, which was long before Dean was given the mark of Cain myth arc. 

[Myrelle]

All I can remember is Pedowitz praising S9 as the season that saw the greatest increase in ratings since the early days. And I know for a fact that many Deanfans returned for s9 and 10, but they have since left again.

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

And I know for a fact that many Deanfans returned for s9 and 10, but they have since left again.

I'd like to see those numbers, please.

[Myrelle]

Friends who I correspond with and used to post with at other sites. I'll give you that I could have used the word some instead of many, but they were many in my little world.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Myrelle

[Idahoforspn]

15 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

You do understand that wasn't intended as a compliment, right?  He meant it in the same way he meant it in season 7.

Have you seen the movie Dean is referencing?

I

Dean said it while looking at Sams data. I took the quip as Dean's way of acknowledging that Sam took a whole lot of info that only made sense to Sam and came up with a successful solution. Like the Beautiful Mind mathematician solving complex equations on his white board. No I did not take it that Dean meant Sam was like movie guy in any way except he was super smart. I took it as a compliment. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

All I can remember is Pedowitz praising S9 as the season that saw the greatest increase in ratings since the early days. And I know for a fact that many Deanfans returned for s9 and 10, but they have since left again.

Or, was the biggest factor the increased visibility Netflix gave to Supernatural starting in S7? Without that, I don't think Carver's ratings would've been any different than Gamble's in the end. Dean fans might have returned, but I'd guess just as many Sam fans walked away. I think that sort of thing balances itself out, myself.

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I

Dean said it while looking at Sams data. I took the quip as Dean's way of acknowledging that Sam took a whole lot of info that only made sense to Sam and came up with a successful solution. Like the Beautiful Mind mathematician solving complex equations on his white board. No I did not take it that Dean meant Sam was like movie guy in any way except he was super smart. I took it as a compliment. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Indeed.  As such, if you do decide to make a list of "compliments" and "insults", I hope you understand that those things are subjective and not entirely quantifiable.

[Idahoforspn]

14 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Indeed.  As such, if you do decide to make a list of "compliments" and "insults", I hope you understand that those things are subjective and not entirely quantifiable.

I do. They would have to be sourced so people could look and see if they agreed.

Edited May 9, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Demented Daisy]

Might I also suggest you make a list of compliments, insults, and jokes?  Just to make a distinction between what is sincere and what is not?

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Might I also suggest you make a list of compliments, insults, and jokes?  Just to make a distinction between what is sincere and what is not?

Don't you want me to do anything this summer but watch SPN?

[Demented Daisy]

I was only recommending you add another category to the lists you were already talking about making.  *shrug*

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I was only recommending you add another category to the lists you were already talking about making.  *shrug*

?

[CluelessDrifter]

9 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Might I also suggest you make a list of compliments, insults, and jokes?  Just to make a distinction between what is sincere and what is not?

I think adding jokes would overly complicate things on the subjective side.  For instance in this page alone, there has been quite a bit of back and forth on what was meant to be funny and what wasn't.  Unless, you were to have a Dean fan and a Sam fan working together to come up with something resembling a fair list, I'm not sure it would work.  I'm not sure any of the lists would work.  It would be interesting for a group of Dean fans to work on a list, and a group of Sam fans to work on a list and then see the differences between the two.  It could be enlightening for both sides?

[Demented Daisy]

7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I think adding jokes would overly complicate things on the subjective side.  For instance in this page alone, there has been quite a bit of back and forth on what was meant to be funny and what wasn't.

It's all subjective -- that's the point I was making.  

As an example of subjectivity, when Bobby calls people "idjits", sometimes it's lovingly, sometimes it's a genuine insult, sometimes it's a joke.

In contrast, when I make my lists, those things are easily pointed to as who got a kill, who got a save, who apologized, etc.  The only time I don't count it when someone says they are sorry is "I'm sorry, but..." statements.  Those are not genuine apologies but a figure of speech.  Regardless, I can point to the transcript -- it's not a matter of opinion, it's what the character said/did.

[CluelessDrifter]

8 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

It's all subjective -- that's the point I was making.  

As an example of subjectivity, when Bobby calls people "idjits", sometimes it's lovingly, sometimes it's a genuine insult, sometimes it's a joke.

In contrast, when I make my lists, those things are easily pointed to as who got a kill, who got a save, who apologized, etc.  The only time I don't count it when someone says they are sorry is "I'm sorry, but..." statements.  Those are not genuine apologies but a figure of speech.  Regardless, I can point to the transcript -- it's not a matter of opinion, it's what the character said/did.

Even the apology one is subjective.  I've seen people on some Supernatural fan sites contest what constitutes a genuine apology and what doesn't and whether or not the words, 'I'm sorry,' not being said means that it's not really an apology when I think something is clearly an apology even though the words 'I'm sorry,' aren't said.  I still think it'd be interesting to see two lists from two sets of fans that can be compared and contrasted, so both sides can better understand the other.  And out of curiosity, how do you define the parameters for what is a kill and what is a save?

Edited May 9, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[catrox14]

I think it would be interesting to have a Dean fan look for Sam jokes, insults, compliments towards Dean  and a Sam fan do the same for Dean jokes, insults, compliments towards Sam

 

Just now, CluelessDrifter said:

Even the apology one is subjective.  I've seen people on some Supernatural fan sites contest what constitutes a genuine apology and what doesn't and whether or not the words, 'I'm sorry,' not being said means that it's not really an apology when I think something is clearly an apology even though the words 'I'm sorry,' aren't said.  I still think it'd be interesting to see two lists from two sets of fans that can be compared and contrasted, so both sides can better understand the other.  And out of curiosity, how do you define the parameters for what is a kill and what is a save?

The show itself unnecessarily complicated apologies by having Dean say he doesn't even always mean his apologies towards Sam in s11 which some think Dean was joking and others think he was telling the truth. 

[Demented Daisy]

1 minute ago, CluelessDrifter said:

And out of curiosity, how do you define the parameters for what is a kill and what is a save?

A kill is a kill.  A save is a save.  I don't understand the confusion there.

If Dean shoots the monster while Sam is shielding or ushering the PiP out, then Dean gets credit for the kill while Sam gets credit for a save.  And vice versa.

If Dean and Sam both kill a monster in an episode, it's credited as a joint kill.  Same with the saves.

The most subjective is who gets credit for the plan.  But that's the one I struggle with the most.  If they use Sam's research to kill the MotW, then Sam gets credit.  If they use Dean's experience or instincts, then Dean gets credit.  If they use both, then it's a joint plan.  If the plan goes out the window, then no one gets credit.

 

6 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Even the apology one is subjective.

Not the way I count it.  If Sam or Dean say "I'm sorry", unless it's the above mentioned situation, I count it as an apology.  100% literal.  Same with "I was wrong" or "You were right."

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

A kill is a kill.  A save is a save.  I don't understand the confusion there.

If Dean shoots the monster while Sam is shielding or ushering the PiP out, then Dean gets credit for the kill while Sam gets credit for a save.  And vice versa.

If Dean and Sam both kill a monster in an episode, it's credited as a joint kill.  Same with the saves.

The most subjective is who gets credit for the plan.  But that's the one I struggle with the most.  If they use Sam's research to kill the MotW, then Sam gets credit.  If they use Dean's experience or instincts, then Dean gets credit.  If they use both, then it's a joint plan.  If the plan goes out the window, then no one gets credit.

 

Not the way I count it.  If Sam or Dean say "I'm sorry", unless it's the above mentioned situation, I count it as an apology.  100% literal.  Same with "I was wrong" or "You were right."

Except you said if the character makes multiple kills at once you only count it as one unless I misunderstood. So the multiple people Sam saved out of the warehouse when Show was trying to give us a Sam who has been running out of buildings since he was a kid counts as one save. Likewise the multiple kills by MofC Dean in the would be rapists house when they were trying to show us how Dean was losing to the Mark counts as one kill. It is interesting data. I just don't look at it as being as definitive as you do. It's almost that it's so objective that it's a little subjective if that makes any sense.