“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

Reganne · April 28, 2018

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

When Sam blames Dean and the writers actually want me to agree with him and cheer him on. No joy on that.

Blaming him for what? Just writing him off when he was in Purgatory? Sam didn`t explain himself, not really. Acted like Dean being hurt and frustrated was an offense to him and then told him to just get over it, that he had explained himself (ha!) and Dean should shut up. Obviously, he was supposed to be validated in that since the episode ended with bad!Dean caving and apologizing.

If it was me, Sam would have gotten the earful of his lifetime in Season 8.

Then the second half of Season 8 had Sam with the trials. Which he proclaimed to take on because he was the resident optimist. Once he got them he immediately switched to "I always wanted a hero`s journey" and pretty soon becoming the resident pessimist. Dean becoming his maidservant, Dean staying back like a good little boy for the second trial when Sam proclaimed the trials were his to do and his alone wasn`t enough for Sam to feel validated. He made a big speech how Dean didn`t respect him enough and dared to have other friends.

Season 8 was horrible for Dean-fans.

Season 8 was horrible for Sam fans too. Season 8 is my least favourite season actually bc ov how they treated Sam. How Benny was now this perfect brother character for Dean compared to Sam. How Benny was like the only character who never let Dean down. How perfect the vampire Benny was and how awful Sam was to Dean. So awful in fact that events in season 8 are still brought up in season 11 as to how terrible Sam was in season 8.

As far as season 5, I think it's clear the writers shifted all the blame to Sam even though Dean broke the first seal.

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've not seen anyone here say that Sam doesn't have the right to express his emotions. Some of us may disagree with how Sam feels and think he's off base but no one has said he shouldn't feel it. I do think they, we are saying that Sam needs to not blame Dean for how he reacts to something.

I saw posts claiming that Sam was acting like a child, and I'm sorry but if Sam feels like Dean is sidelining him, he should have the right to say it even if it might come across as blaming Dean. Dean's not perfect. He doesn't need everyone on the show to agree with everything he does or not say he has any fault in anything. The boys are going to disagree sometimes.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

Aeryn13 · April 28, 2018

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Dean's not perfect. He doesn't need everyone on the show to agree with everything he does or not say he has any fault in anything.

I don`t think the show is ever in danger of everyone agreeing with Dean and validating him or his feelings. The world truly would end if that happened.

And while he is my favourite character, I actually wouldn`t even want it to happen. I know this may sound flimsy now but on the Flash, Barry Allen is (still kinda) my favourite character and these days, I`m clenching my teeth a lot because he is constantly validated and mollycoddled by everyone around him and I`m liking the character less and less and less the more it happens.

However, Sam is not perfect either. So why can`t people be annoyed when they think he is blaming Dean unfairly? If the character has a right to do it, surely viewers have a right to disagree with him?

Reganne · April 28, 2018

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think the show is ever in danger of everyone agreeing with Dean and validating him or his feelings. The world truly would end if that happened.

And while he is my favourite character, I actually wouldn`t even want it to happen. I know this may sound flimsy now but on the Flash, Barry Allen is (still kinda) my favourite character and these days, I`m clenching my teeth a lot because he is constantly validated and mollycoddled by everyone around him and I`m liking the character less and less and less the more it happens.

However, Sam is not perfect either. So why can`t people be annoyed when they think he is blaming Dean unfairly? If the character has a right to do it, surely viewers have a right to disagree with him?

Sam's not perfect. I agree. People can disagree with him. However it's the comments about oh Sam STFU or Sam's acting like a child for expressing his feelings when Dean has thrown toddler like temper tantrums that get me scratching my head. Why should Sam STFU when expressing his feelings but Dean gets free passes to throw temper tantrums.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

companionenvy · April 28, 2018

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Season 8 was horrible for Dean-fans.

Season 8 was also horrible for Sam fans, according to several people on these boards. For all that supposedly the show was "validating" Sam, Sam has canonically acknowledged he was wrong for not looking for Dean and canonically been told that he was a jackass for not looking for Kevin. "Sam hit a dog" was invoked as a joke later on. Yes, Sam got the trials arc - and then that ended with him not completing them.

30 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam didn't really make that choice though. Dean did. He conveniently made it so that he could leave right away so that Sam had another responsibility with Gabriel/opening the rift. Then in the last episode he ran off to take on Loki himself. If they had of waited until Cas came to open up the rift, I would agree with you that Sam had a choice, but Sam couldn't just go through the rift anyway, leave Gabriel and have no one on the other side know where they were to open up the rift again if it closed. I think that is the way Dean planned it and I have no doubt that he had this planned for a while. It didn't just come out of thin air.

This 100 %. Dean essentially engineered the situation in such a way that Sam would either have to say yes, or throw a hissy fit in which he demanded that he would be the one to go through the rift (and I can imagine how well that would have gone down on these boards). Because Dean was actually right that one of them had to stay back. But if he and Sam are really partners, the way to deal with this is to sit down and have a conversation about a) whether or not they have to go that second and b) what the division of labor should be. Instead, Dean had already decided that he was going through the rift right that second. Sam plainly couldn't have stopped him; the only thing he could have done is either start arguing that he should be the one to go -- which would have been petty -- or said he was coming anyway, which would have been irresponsible.

48 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In Season 12 he was hounding Dean for not giving Mary breathing room and this and that. He nagged him for every move Dean made in trying to establish a relationship with Mary. Season 13 he bitches that Dean got to enjoy such a close relationship with Mary.

I actually agree that one of Sam's traits is that he has a "fixer" personality. One negative manifestation of that is that you often try to talk people out of their emotions with logic, which is generally counterproductive. So, yeah, Sam does sometimes tell Dean he is doing feelings wrong.

But here's the thing: Sam isn't always wrong when he questions Dean's thoughts or emotions. In fact, he often has a point. And while we often can't help our emotions, so an emotion can't be "wrong," per se, an emotion can be petty, wrong-headed, or unproductive, and even if it isn't, the way we act out those emotions can be all or any of those things. Sometimes, the appropriate response from the person witnessing and bearing the brunt of those emotions is to challenge or question the underlying thought pattern behind it.

To address the Mary situation, specifically, Sam was also a player in that dynamic. So suggesting to Dean that maybe they needed to give their mother the space they had asked for isn't out of line. As for season 13, I didn't see any "bitching" from Sam; I saw him expressing his own emotional state

If Dean had responded to that with "Actually, Sam, do you think things were easy between me and mom? We weren't close; we were barely speaking half the time!" or "What are you talking about? You and mom spent plenty of time together!" would that have been invalidating Sam's emotions, or a reasonable way of challenging assumptions that were evidently causing Sam pain?

When Dean, just this week, told Gabriel that revenge was stupid and wouldn't make him feel better, was that Dean arrogantly deciding that Gabriel was doing feelings wrong, or an understandable response under the circumstances?

Aeryn13 · April 28, 2018

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Why should Sam STFU when expressing his feelings but Dean gets free passes to throw temper tantrums.

I can only answer for myself but my personal qualifier is "is the character unfair in this scene?"

So if Dean is angrily swiping things off a table and yelling "everytime, things go wrong for us", that just doesn`t bother me as much. I think Sam blamed Dean unfairly in this last scene so that bothered me.

If Sam had said "you know what, screw you, next time we go together or not at all", he could have kicked over two chairs and I would have thought "okay, TV outburst" but it would have been a fair point for him to make. At least not one I would have had a problem with.

But the "you put me at the kiddie table" line was just guaranteed to get me going.

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If Dean had responded to that with "Actually, Sam, do you think things were easy between me and mom? We weren't close; we were barely speaking half the time!" or "What are you talking about? You and mom spent plenty of time together!" would that have been invalidating Sam's emotions, or a reasonable way of challenging assumptions that were evidently causing Sam pain?

Actually, it would help me a lot IF Dean got to have those responses in certain situations. He often would have valid counter-arguments at his disposal but the way scenes are written, the character is either mute or gets to make a strawman argument that is easily shot down.

That deeply annoys me and plays - to me - into the perception that the writers don`t want to present a fair and balanced argument between the brothers but want to put Dean in the wrong so he isn`t allowed to defend himself.

He certainly wasn`t during that grief episode, especially not when the "trained professional" grief councelor got in on the fun of shaming him and telling him he was doing things wrong.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Aeryn13

AwesomO4000 · April 28, 2018

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I'm not a proponent of 8-11 being a redemptive storyline for Sam either, but if you just change out each brother's name(and change Carver to Kripke) in every instance in this paragraph, that would be exactly how *I* felt about S3-5, so their idea of attempting to "balance" things seemed like it might have worked, if this is truly how you felt about 8-11.

No, you are right, it's not how I really feel about those seasons. That was more hyperbole. It's more how it seemed to me Carver wanted things to be based on all of the toxic things he did in those first two seasons especially. It's probably not what he really meant, but based on how awful it was for almost every character - except for his own new favorites Benny and Gadreel - that's to me what it seemed like. It was almost like he said "hmm let's see how I can piss off all of fandom the most... I'll write Sam as a complete jerk who doesn't look for his brother (even though he always has before) - I'll just throw some retcon in there to explain that - no problem! Then I'll have him not look for Kevin either and mock him for it, and instead of him being sorry he'll just bitchface about it, because that'll really make him look mature. Oh, and even though Dean's had to fight to keep himself alive in purgatory for a year, when faced with Sam and his new "mature" attitude, he's just going to be so impressed he'll totally give up any independence he gained in purgatory. And I'll give Dean a good friend, who's totally awesome (because of course he is, I created him), but I'll have Dean dis him for Sam, because Dean's all about caving to his brother now. The fans will love this!" I don't think I need to mock season 9 too (but I'd be happy to if you want ; ) ) because that just seems like overkill.

When I saw just the first few episodes of season 8, I thought, for me, (others are free to disagree) that Carver was either the biggest idiot or the biggest instigator ever. I guess in my hyperbole, I decided to let Carver be the "evil genius" rather than an idiot.

As for it being an attempt to balance, if that's what it was, for me the writers got one thing off. For me, a character isn't really getting away with things if they get the lion's share of the blame for starting an apocalypse... especially if the show's going to keep bringing it up over and over. In a show about huge consequences, for me, who gets blamed for those huge consequences sends a message as to where the show's sympathies lie or don't. But I can understand that there were fans who thought that Sam getting to fix his mistakes by stopping the apocalypse was somehow justifying his hubris. I disagree and think it would've made Sam a boring character if he hadn't, but I can see the argument.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The reason why I`m much lighter on Dean - and I don`t think his anger is always a healthy expression of his feelings - is how often and how nasty the show/narrative comes down on him for expressing his feelings. He is forever doing it wrong and being a jerk and being called out on it every which way.

Meanwhile when Sam acts IMO like a jerk, I think the narrative seems him as completely validated and such an empathetic, wise, mature soul. When is he called out on stuff like that? Pretty much never. If Dean does it, you just know, Dean will learn a very special lesson in the next episode on how he was wrong and a jerk so he crawls back in apology.

If Dean got off as lightly in the material itself, I wouldn`t feel the need to defend him so fiercely offscreen.

In my opinion. A lot. Dean, War, other hunters, demons, angels, Ruby (yup in the end, most of her "praise" was proven to only be a ruse, and she told Sam the real story) Bobby (for every "we're hard on him" there's a "not saying he's not chock full of character defects"), Castiel, Crowley, Ghost Ellen, etc. How many times did we here about Sam's "bad choices" - sometimes from characters who also made their own bad choices that helped cause the same apocalypse - or a variation of "Sam hit a dog." Meanwhile Sam gets praise from evil or crazy-seeming characters, or characters who don't really know him at all, but only idealized or abbreviated versions of him - like Becky and Marie - where the praise is rather suspect, and the writers likely know this.

Now season 8 - pfff - I agree with you. In my opinion, Sam's "bad behavior" wasn't called out more, because of teh drama! But for me, season 8 was bad, and I couldn't begin to guess what the intention was supposed to be there except "isn't Benny the awesomest ever!!!" (Well yeah, he maybe would've been if you hadn't propped him up and crammed him down my throat - my opinion only on that.)

And as for "very special lessons"... Sam gets them, too, from what I see. ("Something Wicked," "A Very Supernatural Christmas," and "Bad Boys" being the biggest whole episode examples). And I still contend it's hard to see a character's jerky behavior being validated when it starts an apocalypse that gets pointed out, sometimes over and over again, or by God himself.

And I thought Dean got off fairly lightly for everything that happened in season 9 and 10. Yes, I agree that there was "The Purge" (later shown to be suspect due to Sam wrongness and hypocrisy), but there wasn't any blow back for the Charlie incident, or what Dean said as a demon, or the lying. We didn't see Dean "on probation" for what happened while he had the mark or when he worked with and palled around with Crowley. As soon as the mark was gone, Dean was back to being trusted by Sam and Castiel, and as far as I remember, neither brought it up ever again.

So while I see your argument and understand, I think this goes both ways, and I don't think Sam is as "validated" all the time as you say.

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

This 100 %. Dean essentially engineered the situation in such a way that Sam would either have to say yes, or throw a hissy fit in which he demanded that he would be the one to go through the rift (and I can imagine how well that would have gone down on these boards). Because Dean was actually right that one of them had to stay back. But if he and Sam are really partners, the way to deal with this is to sit down and have a conversation about a) whether or not they have to go that second and b) what the division of labor should be. Instead, Dean had already decided that he was going through the rift right that second. Sam plainly couldn't have stopped him; the only thing he could have done is either start arguing that he should be the one to go -- which would have been petty -- or said he was coming anyway, which would have been irresponsible.

Yes, this.

I think Sam doesn't seem like a person who wants to get into confrontations so much anymore. He likely remembers where that got him when he was younger, and he knows he has a temper that can be triggered where he says stuff he later regrets. So maybe when he thinks Dean seems to be setting him up in situations where he can either go along or argue and look like a jerk or like he doesn't trust Dean's judgement, that might put him a little off balance a bit, but then later regret that decision.

So should Sam likely have stood up for himself previously rather then complaining about it after the fact - yes, probably. Is it unthinkable that Sam might also to feel backed into a corner by that situation and later be all "hey wait a minute" about it after thinking about it and in the face of what he sees as maybe similar behavior - in my opinion, no.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

If Sam had said "you know what, screw you, next time we go together or not at all", he could have kicked over two chairs and I would have thought "okay, TV outburst" but it would have been a fair point for him to make. At least not one I would have had a problem with.

I can see this, but based on Sam's anger management difficulties - which Sam is well aware of - and his propensity to lob verbal potshots he likely didn't mean to say and regrets later during said anger management difficulties which Sam is also aware of, I can also see why Sam might want to avoid reacting to unpleasant "surprise!" situations in ways where he might set himself off, but then be thinking later on "wait a minute, that wasn't quite right. Why did I agree to that?"

And though maybe blaming the proprietor of said situation for his decision to not say anything previously might seem somewhat unfair, it's also human and understandable in my opinion. The logic of "I maybe wouldn't have made that decision if you hadn't put me on the spot with your seemingly logical argument, and if I'd had more time to think about it, or if I'd known you were going to do something somewhat like it again now that I think about it, showing potentially there were ulterior motives to your first actions, and maybe they weren't just because it was the most logical decision to make at the time like you painted it as" - to me - isn't all that unreasonable. And sometimes that's easier to express as "Hey stop treating me like a kid" than whatever that long ass explanation I gave up there was. To which most people would've thought - what the hell is he/she talking about... ***

So there's the consideration of do I want to try to "win" the argument / discussion logically and maybe get nowhere or go with what works and get my point across maybe less than "fairly" but at least I get heard. I think Sam chose option #2.

*** Trust me, (TMI) I've seen things like that from my husband sometimes when he asks me about my logic in coming to a conclusion about something - usually something entirely benign like our opinions on a political issue or something (we're one of those annoying couples who seldom fights) - and his expression is usually saying "Not only did I not follow that, I am now also really sorry that I asked," and it pretty much kills any momentum / point of the discussion to begin with. Heh.

Reganne · April 28, 2018

I think my problem with season 8 Sam is not that he was wrong, because he was. It was because the writers didn't think enough to give him a reason for it. It's just because. Now I mostly think Sam was wrong for not helping Kevin mind you, as he knew Crowley had Kevin. Yes, he should have researched about Dean as well, but considering his prior 'going down a dark path with Ruby to try and help Dean' the last time Sam lost him, I can understand why he might be hesitant to do so. Every time Sam sets his mind to 'saving Dean', it sets in motion an obsession where he will go to any means to get him back. Often driving him down dark paths as seen in season four and season 10. I wish the narrative of season 8 would have allowed us to explore something about Sam's character in that respect. It would have made season 8 more tolerable for me. I don't want Sam perfect and I understand he as a character with flaws will make mistakes and be in the wrong sometimes, but I would like that explored a bit more than the whole "just because" lame excuse in season 8. Obviously the audience isn't going to take kindly to Sam with the writers failing to acknowledge a reason for Sam ditching everything.

And even though I wish they had explored Sam's reasons more in season 4 concerning his dark arc instead of the brief flashbacks we got, at least we got those crumbs in season 4. TBH, I loved the whole demon blood Sam arc, even with him breaking the last seal. I just don't like that in season 5, all of the blame was shifted to Sam.

Aeryn13 · April 28, 2018

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I just don't like that in season 5, all of the blame was shifted to Sam.

I thought all the blame was shifted neatly to Dean. After all, if he hadn`t been such a controlling bully, Sam wouldn`t have felt the need to go with Ruby and everything that came with it.

Nevermind that apparently in Season 4 the problem was how weak Dean was.

If they had brought up his seal-breaking in Season 5, that would been in-keeping with the narrative of Season 4 "oh look, daddy`s little girl broke in hell after a mere 30 years, he was never a real man like his father and never as strong as his brother". But it would have run counter to the new message of "bossy!Dean needs to learn to step back". He can`t be a weakling AND an overbearing bully at the same time. Other than probably Yellow Fever which tried to have it both ways.

Also, calling him on breaking after torture would have run the risk of making Dean sympathetic in that scenario. Being slapped with the "bully" label put him far more in the wrong.

catrox14 · April 28, 2018

5 hours ago, Reganne said:

Sam's not perfect. I agree. People can disagree with him. However it's the comments about oh Sam STFU or Sam's acting like a child for expressing his feelings when Dean has thrown toddler like temper tantrums that get me scratching my head. Why should Sam STFU when expressing his feelings but Dean gets free passes to throw temper tantrums.

Dean wasn't throwing a toddler temper tantrum just because he's angry. Dean reacted as an adult leader who was pissed that his felliw soldiers failed in their part of the mission. Dean was a dick, but IMO it was adult to adult .Sam was whining about what he perceived as Dean's motives. Dean straight up called them out for their failures. To me those are entirely different situations and different outbursts.

Reganne · April 28, 2018

30 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean wasn't throwing a toddler temper tantrum just because he's angry. Dean reacted as an adult leader who was pissed that his felliw soldiers failed in their part of the mission. Dean was a dick, but IMO it was adult to adult .Sam was whining about what he perceived as Dean's motives. Dean straight up called them out for their failures. To me those are entirely different situations and different outbursts.

But I thought Dean wasn't blaming Cas and Sam?

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

Reganne · April 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought all the blame was shifted neatly to Dean. After all, if he hadn`t been such a controlling bully, Sam wouldn`t have felt the need to go with Ruby and everything that came with it.

Nevermind that apparently in Season 4 the problem was how weak Dean was.

If they had brought up his seal-breaking in Season 5, that would been in-keeping with the narrative of Season 4 "oh look, daddy`s little girl broke in hell after a mere 30 years, he was never a real man like his father and never as strong as his brother". But it would have run counter to the new message of "bossy!Dean needs to learn to step back". He can`t be a weakling AND an overbearing bully at the same time. Other than probably Yellow Fever which tried to have it both ways.

Also, calling him on breaking after torture would have run the risk of making Dean sympathetic in that scenario. Being slapped with the "bully" label put him far more in the wrong.

That's not how I see it. Dean's mistake for breaking the first seal wasn't breaking in hell. It was making the deal with the demon in the first place that landed him in hell to be able to break the first seal in the first place. Moral of that story, don't make deals with demons.

As far as blaming in season 5, I don't see it the way you do. Sam even claimed after that that it was his own fault for breaking the last seal. Dean was actually the one who acted surprised that some of the apocalypse could possibly be his fault with the whole "what? It's my fault now?" And blaming Sam for the entire thing and somehow conveniently forgetting how the first seal was broken. Sam claimed the apocalypse was his fault many times however. Even in Swan Song where he said he was the one who let Lucifer out, he should be the one to put him back. If Sam blamed Dean, then why did he say that? Why did Sam say he started the apocalypse in Sam interrupted? If he were blaming Dean, he would have said Dean was the cause of it.

Edited April 28, 2018 by Reganne

ILoveReading · April 28, 2018

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

That's not how I see it. Dean's mistake for breaking the first seal wasn't breaking in hell. It was making the deal with the demon in the first place that landed him in hell to be able to break the first seal in the first place. Moral of that story, don't make deals with demons.

Dean had no idea the seals existed or that he broke the first one when he got off the rack.

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Dean was actually the one who acted surprised that some of apocalypse could possibly his fault with the whole "what? It's my fault now?" And blaming Sam for the entire thing and somehow conveniently forgetting how the first seal was broken. Sam claimed the apocalypse was his fault many times however. Even in Swan Song where he said he was the one who let Lucifer out, he should be the one to put him back. If Sam blamed Dean, then why did he say that? Why did Sam say he started the apocalypse in Sam interrupted? If he were blaming Dean, he would have said Dean was the cause of it.

In Symphathy for the Devil, Dean specifally says "We made a mess, we clean it up" so he did acknowledge his part.

When he says "so its my fault" its in response to Sam telling him he went to Ruby to get away from Dean because Sam laid the blame on Deans' shoulders. Not about his part in breaking the seals.

Aeryn13 · April 28, 2018

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Dean was actually the one who acted surprised that some of apocalypse could possibly his fault with the whole "what? It's my fault now?"

He said that when Sam was all "why do you think I went with Ruby?" Which, according to Sam, was because she made him feel stronger. No matter that she actually did control him and treat him like a child, she just did it in an ego-stroking way. Sam was pretty much proclaiming that this was the relevant part for him.

To me Season 5 was quite clear in its intent - and Kripke helpfully provided commentary on how Dean had to change and learn to love Sam better for 5.22 to work, crickets on what Sam had to learn or how he had to change. He was "the one" in the Season 4 Finale, it just didn`t work out that well. And he was also "the one" in 5.22, only this time with Dean as the supportive flunky so it worked. Moral of the story? Dean had to learn his place.

Releasing Lucifer was actually an honest mistake on Sam`s part. That was never my problem. Noone swooped in and told him that killing Lilith would do that. The arrogance before that, that was always my problem. And Season 5 never really acknowledged that or rectified it and to me 5.22 was the coup the gras for any redemption I was awaiting after Season 4.

I`ve kind of accepted it these days. Though my hatred for 5.22 still burns bright.

These days, I prefer when the brothers just interact normally for the most part. I don`t want angst and confrontations because usually Dean will be dragged for those on the show, if not right away then soon enough. I don`t want big teary "bro-moments" and declarations either because they usually veer too heavy on the pathetic side. I prefer episodes when I can just ignore that ugly elephant in the room that is their relationship. At least as best as I`m able to. They will never again have any kind of relationship that I like anyhow so my bar now is "inoffensive".

Reganne · April 28, 2018

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean had no idea the seals existed or that he broke the first one when he got off the rack.

Sam had no idea that killing Lilith was breaking the seal either, so I don't really understand the point being made here. Dean knew making a demon deal wasn't a good thing but he did it anyway. Same with Sam and drinking the demon blood.

ILoveReading · April 29, 2018

5 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Sam had no idea that killing Lilith was breaking the seal either, so I don't really understand the point being made here. Dean knew making a demon deal wasn't a good thing but he did it anyway. Same with Sam and drinking the demon blood.

No, he didn't know Lilith was the finale seal but he did it on the advice of a demon who was a known liar and a manipulator. So IMO, Dean's breaking the first seal dosn't really compare to breaking the last becasue circumstances werent' even close to the same thing.

It wasn't breaking the finale seal for me that was the problem. It was his ego that he was the only one that knew better.

Edited April 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

Reganne · April 29, 2018

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He said that when Sam was all "why do you think I went with Ruby?" Which, according to Sam, was because she made him feel stronger. No matter that she actually did control him and treat him like a child, she just did it in an ego-stroking way. Sam was pretty much proclaiming that this was the relevant part for him.

To me Season 5 was quite clear in its intent - and Kripke helpfully provided commentary on how Dean had to change and learn to love Sam better for 5.22 to work, crickets on what Sam had to learn or how he had to change. He was "the one" in the Season 4 Finale, it just didn`t work out that well. And he was also "the one" in 5.22, only this time with Dean as the supportive flunky so it worked. Moral of the story? Dean had to learn his place.

Releasing Lucifer was actually an honest mistake on Sam`s part. That was never my problem. Noone swooped in and told him that killing Lilith would do that. The arrogance before that, that was always my problem. And Season 5 never really acknowledged that or rectified it and to me 5.22 was the coup the gras for any redemption I was awaiting after Season 4.

I`ve kind of accepted it these days. Though my hatred for 5.22 still burns bright.

These days, I prefer when the brothers just interact normally for the most part. I don`t want angst and confrontations because usually Dean will be dragged for those on the show, if not right away then soon enough. I don`t want big teary "bro-moments" and declarations either because they usually veer too heavy on the pathetic side. I prefer episodes when I can just ignore that ugly elephant in the room that is their relationship. At least as best as I`m able to. They will never again have any kind of relationship that I like anyhow so my bar now is "inoffensive".

Sam had to learn to be loyal to Dean and try to atone for his mistakes in season 4. There was the whole thing about Sam choosing a demon over Dean which was constantly brought up. He had to earn Dean's trust back. The first few episodes were of Sam trying to apologize to Dean, Bobby etc and make things right.

As far as Sam's arrogance in season 4. I agree it was there, but to me it is not really any different than the arrogance Dean showed with the MOC and I don't recall that ever being brought up after the fact either.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

No, he didn't know Lilith was the finale seal but he did it on the advice of a demon who was a known liar and a manipulator. So IMO, Dean's breaking the first seal dosn't really compare to breaking the last becasue circumstances werent' even close to the same thing.

It wasn't breaking the finale seal for me that was the problem. It was his ego that he was the only one that knew better.

Which to me is not any different than Dean knowing full well that making a demon deal was bad. To me they are quite similar. They both dealt with demons and that lead them both to break seals as far as I am concerned.

And the ego thing to me is no different than Dean's ego with the MOC. He thought he knew better and was the only one who could defeat Abaddon and Metatron. Both times making sure Sam was out of the way because he saw himself as the one with the power to destroy them and not Sam or anyone else.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

ILoveReading · April 29, 2018

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Sam had to learn to be loyal to Dean and try to atone for his mistakes in season 4. There was the whole thing about Sam choosing a demon over Dean which was constantly brought up. He had to earn Dean's trust back. The first few episodes were of Sam trying to apologize to Dean, Bobby etc and make things right.

I can acknowledge the writers started off well with writing a redemption arc for Sam in s5. I liked how Sam decided he needed time and space and that Dean gave it and wasn't willing to forgive and forget..

Unfortunately it all fell off the rails in Fallen Idols, which Sam put the blame for everything on Deans' shoulders. If only Dean gave him more hugs and tried to accept and work with Ruby, and give her a chance, and let Sam keep his secrets, and only ask that Sam not lie to him.

But after that ep, its like Kripke got bored and just decided to dump the whole mess on Dean, and only if he learned to love Sam enough. After that I don't' think Sam felt he needed to earn Dean's trust. He'd get pissy if Dean questioned him. (End of the witch/poker ep). Dean was made to apologize 3 times for not having enough trust faith in Sam. In Fallen Idols, PONR and Swan Song.

Yes, to this day Fallen Idols still leaves me bitter.

ILoveReading · April 29, 2018

7 minutes ago, Reganne said:

And the ego thing to me is no different than Dean's ego with the MOC. He thought he knew better and was the only one who could defeat Abaddon and Metatron. Both times making sure Sam was out of the way because he saw himself as the one with the power to destroy them and not Sam or anyone else.

For me the difference is the aftermath. Dean didn't' tell Sam that Sam made him take on the mark because Sam was mean to him. Dean took full responsibility for that decision. When Dean felt overwhelmed with Amara he came clean to Sam and asked for help.

gonzosgirrl · April 29, 2018

For me, it's that for the most part, Dean has feelings about the things Dean does. Sam has feelings about the things... Dean does, too. IMO Sam has rarely show actual regret for hurting Dean. A half-assed apology, three seasons later (which they then had Dean brush off as unnecessary) is a case in point.

Dean didn't apologize for Gadreel because he wasn't sorry. But the many other times he has apologized, they've been sincere. Sam's are generally followed with a 'but' and the reasons why it's not really his fault .

My perception of the show is, it's about Sam. And even when it's about Dean, it's still about Sam.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can acknowledge the writers started off well with writing a redemption arc for Sam in s5. I liked how Sam decided he needed time and space and that Dean gave it and wasn't willing to forgive and forget..

Unfortunately it all fell off the rails in Fallen Idols, which Sam put the blame for everything on Deans' shoulders. If only Dean gave him more hugs and tried to accept and work with Ruby, and give her a chance, and let Sam keep his secrets, and only ask that Sam not lie to him.

But after that ep, its like Kripke got bored and just decided to dump the whole mess on Dean, and only if he learned to love Sam enough. After that I don't' think Sam felt he needed to earn Dean's trust. He'd get pissy if Dean questioned him. (End of the witch/poker ep). Dean was made to apologize 3 times for not having enough trust faith in Sam. In Fallen Idols, PONR and Swan Song.

Yes, to this day Fallen Idols still leaves me bitter.

Fallen idols leaves me bitter as well but I see it as the exact opposite than you. Lol. Dean and his whole "and we all know who's fault that is." Aka Sam's to Bobby on the phone. Makes me angry everytime I hear it tbh. Lol

At least when Sam said the thing about wanting to feel stronger, he didn't outright say it was Dean's fault and even said outright it was his own fault. Sam wanting to be stronger isn't Dean's fault. The way I always saw it was that Sam just had a little brother complex of always feeling inferior to his older sibling who might be better than him at some things and wanting to break away from that shadow. The demon blood made him feel like he was stronger and hence the arrogance came along with that. This was the affect the demon blood had on him IMO. I think that's why I don't see it the same way as some Dean fans.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, it's that for the most part, Dean has feelings about the things Dean does. Sam has feelings about the things... Dean does, too. IMO Sam has rarely show actual regret for hurting Dean. A half-assed apology, three seasons later (which they then had Dean brush off as unnecessary) is a case in point.

Dean didn't apologize for Gadreel because he wasn't sorry. But the many other times he has apologized, they've been sincere. Sam's are generally followed with a 'but' and the reasons why it's not really his fault .

My perception of the show is, it's about Sam. And even when it's about Dean, it's still about Sam.

I disagree that Sam doesn't have regrets for hurting Dean. The whole of season 10 and Sam's obsession with curing the MOC stemmed from Sam's regret and guilt associated with him not looking for Dean in purgatory. Just bc they had Dean brush it off, that doesn't me the regret wasn't there for Sam. The apology would have been more if it hadn't of been brushed off. The fact that Sam was still even thinking about it seasons later IMO proves that Sam not only had those regrets but carried them with him for years.

ILoveReading · April 29, 2018

Just now, Reganne said:

Fallen idols leaves me bitter as well but I see it as the exact opposite than you. Lol. Dean and his whole "and we all know who's fault that is." Aka Sam's to Bobby on the phone. Makes me angry everytime I hear it tbh. Lol

At least when Sam said the thing about wanting to feel stronger, he didn't outright say it was Dean's fault and even said outright it was his own fault. Sam wanting to be stronger isn't Dean's fault. The way I always saw it was that Sam just had a little brother complex of always feeling inferior to his older sibling who might be better than him at some things and wanting to break away from that shadow. The demon blood made him feel like he was stronger and hence the arrogance came along with that. This was the affect the demon blood had on him IMO. I think that's why I don't see it the same way as some Dean fans.

I dont' care if Sam said it was my fault, because he followed it up with, only because you made me do it in the first place. Ruby was a master manipulator who contolled Sam 6 ways til Sunday. So I fail to see how how Sam can say he felt stronger with Ruby when it was all an illusion. Sam's knows he was manipulated. If Sam can't see this or acknowledge it, it very much comes across as him blaming Dean.

Not to mention Sam spent the majority of season 4 calling Dean weak. So which is it Sam? He can't have it both ways.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me the difference is the aftermath. Dean didn't' tell Sam that Sam made him take on the mark because Sam was mean to him. Dean took full responsibility for that decision. When Dean felt overwhelmed with Amara he came clean to Sam and asked for help.

Though I disagree that Sam blamed Dean, I also have to say that Dean also didn't bare the brunt of blame for that second apocalypse like Sam did. Dean didn't have to blame Sam for the MOC because no one really blamed Dean for it in the first place. He didn't need reasons or excuses for the MOC. No one was telling him how he started an apocalypse. No one was attacking him.

companionenvy · April 29, 2018

15 minutes ago, Reganne said:

At least when Sam said the thing about wanting to feel stronger, he didn't outright say it was Dean's fault and even said outright it was his own fault. Sam wanting to be stronger isn't Dean's fault. The way I always saw it was that Sam just had a little brother complex of always feeling inferior to his older sibling who might be better than him at some things and wanting to break away from that shadow. The demon blood made him feel like he was stronger and hence the arrogance came along with that. This was the affect the demon blood had on him IMO. I think that's why I don't see it the same way as some Dean fans.

And to go back to the earlier conversation - how is this not just Sam expressing his feelings? Like, whether it was petty or not, Sam was essentially telling Dean "part of the reason I went with Ruby is because I felt weak and like I had to live up to you, and she made me feel strong." That was a feeling that probably had to be acknowledged if they were going to continue to work together - which Dean now wanted to do; Sam had been willing to accept that they should part and go their separate ways after the end of "Good God Y'all," and Dean had called him back after "The End."

I don't want to rehash this again, but I'll agree quickly that what Sam was saying was a lot more nuanced than "I'm not actually to blame; its all your fault anyway." He was saying that while it was his fault, he now recognized that a contributing factor was an unhealthy dynamic that had developed between the two of them. He was also saying - rightly, I think -- that while he could have and did accept if Dean was angry enough not to want to work with him, if Dean did want to continue working together, Sam wasn't going to tolerate constant distrust. It would be sort of the equivalent of a recovering addict who had hurt family members in the past saying "if you don't trust me enough to let me in your house, I understand that, but if you invite me in, I'm not willing to pee in a cup as a precondition of entry. Maybe until I've earned back your trust, we can meet at neutral locations, and you can invite me back when you're actually ready to do so in a way that doesn't make me feel like a pariah and totally shatter my self-esteem to a point that it might actually damage my recovery."

Edited April 29, 2018 by companionenvy

ILoveReading · April 29, 2018

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

he now recognized that a contributing factor was an unhealthy dynamic that had developed between the two of them

My issues here is that Sam only listed ways Dean had to change. He never acknowledged he needed to change his behavior.

Also, IMO, if the intent behind that scene wasn't to blame Dean why didn't the writers allow Dean a counter argument where he was allowed to point out the the multiple times he gave Ruby a chance, and how he told Sam he could keep his secrets just stop lying.

Because allowing Dean to point that out shows that Sam was putting the blame on Dean's shoulders becasue the Dean gave Sam space to make his own decisions.

If it was a real conversation about changing the dynamics of the relationship then Dean should have been given a voice, not just a list of Sam's demands and Dean told he had to follow them or else.

Edited April 29, 2018 by ILoveReading

Reganne · April 29, 2018

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I dont' care if Sam said it was my fault, because he followed it up with, only because you made me do it in the first place. Ruby was a master manipulator who contolled Sam 6 ways til Sunday. So I fail to see how how Sam can say he felt stronger with Ruby when it was all an illusion. Sam's knows he was manipulated. If Sam can't see this or acknowledge it, it very much comes across as him blaming Dean.

Not to mention Sam spent the majority of season 4 calling Dean weak. So which is it Sam? He can't have it both ways.

Sam never directly said Dean made him do it though where as Dean said they all know it's Sam's fault. And yes, Ruby was a manipulator. It was an illusion of sorts but the demon blood made him feel stronger.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

My issues here is that Sam only listed ways Dean had to change. He never acknowledged he needed to change his behavior.

Ruby and the demon blood were out of the picture at this point so I think it's obvious that one of the things Sam wanted to change from season 4 was to stay off the demon blood and not get addicted to it again. Sam was already working to get himself in a better place at this point. That's why he initially took a break from hunting. To stay away from the temptation of Demon blood.

gonzosgirrl · April 29, 2018

In this week's episode, Dean pretty much said he was suicidal. He literally said he didn't care about his own life. And they still managed to make it about Sam and his feelings. Thar pretty much says it all, IMO.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

In this week's episode, Dean pretty much said he was suicidal. He literally said he didn't care about his own life. And they still managed to make it about Sam and his feelings. Thar pretty much says it all, IMO.

They made it about both their feelings. Both of them are struggling. They have been all season. The last line Sam said about them dying and if they do die, they die together was essentially Sam saying he doesn't want to live without Dean. That he will be by his side no matter what happens to him in the end.

catrox14 · April 29, 2018

7 hours ago, Reganne said:

But I thought Dean wasn't blaming Cas and Sam?

Huh? I never said that.

AwesomO4000 · April 29, 2018

6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Releasing Lucifer was actually an honest mistake on Sam`s part. That was never my problem. Noone swooped in and told him that killing Lilith would do that. The arrogance before that, that was always my problem. And Season 5 never really acknowledged that or rectified it and to me 5.22 was the coup the gras for any redemption I was awaiting after Season 4.

How was the show supposed to acknowledge it any more than the many characters telling Sam in various ways that he was: War, Dean (both who literally told Sam he was arrogant) and Castiel in his own way. How was Sam supposed to rectify his mistake except to make sure that he paid the price for the mistake he made?. Let Dean clean up his mess for him? Sam did do all sorts of things to change in season 5. Actions speak louder than words, and Sam's actions showed he was trying. He followed Dean's lead, supported his plan, made sure Dean knew when he was having problems - "Sam Interrupted" and "My Bloody Valentine" for example. These were Sam showing some humbleness... "I have problem, and I can't do this on my own. I need help" rather than insisting he could do it on his own. Really, I don't know why more than that was needed at that point. Changing is a slow process. I personally wouldn't have found it believable for Sam to entirely turn on a dime. That may happen in movies and comic books, but to me it doesn't make as much sense in a long term show and it's not how it generally happens in real life.

Besides I don't generally see the people who are condemning Sam because he supposedly didn't rectify his hubris also saying that Dean should've rectified his hubris in season 9 and so how awful is Dean for not doing that. If it's so awful for Sam, then why isn't it awful for Dean? And unlike Sam in season 5, the show never said that Dean's hubris was a problem at all that I remember... it even had God say "ehn Dean making that decision was no problem" and then blamed everything on Sam. Talk about the show not acknowledging a character's hubris...

So I'm jut not seeing why Sam not being punished enough or having his arrogance be called out enough - in your opinion - in season 5 is so awful, but Dean, doing just as arrogant things (taking on the mark recklessly and pronouncing himself the one in charge, and deciding for Sam to allow Gadreel to stay and pronouncing himself right) with no acknowledgement at all that this was hubris - which it was - by the show or Dean is somehow not even worth mentioning as a show failing or something to think Dean is awful for.

I don't get why it's supposedly a legitimate reason to condemn one brother, but not the other.

(I personally don't see it as a reason to condemn either brother myself.)

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

My issues here is that Sam only listed ways Dean had to change. He never acknowledged he needed to change his behavior.

That's because Sam was already changing his behavior. He even told Dean exactly how he was changing his behavior. Unfortunately Sam changing his behavior more wasn't going to help the situation at hand, since Sam's changing was actually part of the problem. That's why.

Quote

Also, IMO, if the intent behind that scene wasn't to blame Dean why didn't the writers allow Dean a counter argument where he was allowed to point out the the multiple times he gave Ruby a chance, and how he told Sam he could keep his secrets just stop lying.

Because that didn't have anything to do with the problem at hand? The problem at hand was that Dean was letting his (legitimate) anger at Sam personally affect their work. That was it. Sam told Dean he could be personally angry at Sam all he wanted, but that if they were going to work together, Sam needed Dean to trust him in their working relationship.

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If it was a real conversation about changing the dynamics of the relationship then Dean should have been given a voice, not just a list of Sam's demands and Dean told he had to follow them or else.

Dean had already given his demands... that's why they were having the argument in the first place... because Dean had been trying to have the only say in the relationship and insisting that was the way it had to be and that Sam had no right to complain about it.

6 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I don't want to rehash this again, but I'll agree quickly that what Sam was saying was a lot more nuanced than "I'm not actually to blame; its all your fault anyway." He was saying that while it was his fault, he now recognized that a contributing factor was an unhealthy dynamic that had developed between the two of them. He was also saying - rightly, I think -- that while he could have and did accept if Dean was angry enough not to want to work with him, if Dean did want to continue working together, Sam wasn't going to tolerate constant distrust. It would be sort of the equivalent of a recovering addict who had hurt family members in the past saying "if you don't trust me enough to let me in your house, I understand that, but if you invite me in, I'm not willing to pee in a cup as a precondition of entry. Maybe until I've earned back your trust, we can meet at neutral locations, and you can invite me back when you're actually ready to do so in a way that doesn't make me feel like a pariah and totally shatter my self-esteem to a point that it might actually damage my recovery."

So much this.

What Sam was saying was not "blaming" Dean, imo, unless it's somehow Dean's responsibility that Sam feels strong - which would just be weird. The dialogue was just badly written. That writer wasn't the best, in my opinion, and there was likely a reason that this was her last season. (She also wrote the awful - in my opinion - "Swap Meat" where Dean inexplicably couldn't tell the witch wasn't Sam and "Chris Angel..." which failed to convey a critical plot point for season 4. We can also blame her for Dean going to see Lisa at the end of "99 Problems." She did write bar owner Paul though, but I wish she hadn't killed him.)

AwesomO4000 · April 29, 2018

From the Bitter Spoilers thread. No spoilers:

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

...In fact of you look at the wayward sister line up Alex is the Sam adjacent character, the one most like Sam who went to college, etc. And we saw how she supports jody through the use of her skill set and how she has devoted her life to helping others through nursing as a way to give back for those she hurt when she was living in the vampire nest. And she was far less culpable than Sam because she was a child living under the threat of death if she did not provide her nest with fresh prey.

They handled Alex's heroic arc perfectly.

So yes there were definitely ways the writing could have let Sam be Sam and still behaved like a hero should post heroic tragic fall, especially when said hero went so dark. But instead Gamble chose to make him super sexy soulless killer on steroids without remorse and then he had Hellpain forever and then he was just annoyed that his girlfriend's husband came back and Dean came back, and he felt really guilty that he did not save Dean because he took a mental health vacation so he decided to kill Dean's friend who actually did save Dean. Then instead of apologizing he did the trials and almost died and was mad at Dean again and when Dean became suicidal and ended up immediately with the MoC, became a demon, triggering sam's guilt about Dean selling his soul all over again, he goes dark side again. But this time they do it right and he feels bad a lot because loads of people died and he apologizes and he talks about doing things differently and he changes ... yada yada yada... yeah Sam!

Sam becoming soulless was not only not his fault, it lasted only half a season and Sam felt guilty about it and tried to rectify some of the mistakes Soulless Sam made afterwards. (And the story line also allowed Dean to show smarts and have a hero moment as well). And Sam's hellpain? That was the result of his taking on all of his hell memories so that he could go help Dean try to stop Castiel and then hunt with him... which is what you said Sam should be doing to redeem himself. So what if he had Lucifer hallucinations while he was hunting? How does that somehow negate the fact that Sam chose to hunt and save people? That actually means that Sam hunted even while having his own problems, and worked hard to stay sane so that he could hunt. And he supported Dean on Dean's Dick Roman quest, making sure Dean had food and making sure Dean didn't burn himself out. Sam tried to keep Dean's spirits up and tried to get Dean to take care of himself. Why is any of that awful? Sam was hunting and Sam was supporting Dean, and he was zen and hopeful that entire time.

Your restrictions on what can be considered "behaving like a hero should" sound fairly random to me.

As for the rest - that was Carver changing Sam's behavior from supporting Dean in season 7 to not supporting Dean even though it made little sense, not Gamble. Gamble had nothing to do with turning Sam into a jerk. Gamble set Dean up to have an awesome arc in season 8 with his going to purgatory. It was Carver who proclaimed that set up as crappy and wasted the potential of purgatory - not Gamble.

I'm also not even entirely sure that Sam's apology in season 11 was Carver's idea. My suspicion is that maybe it was Dabb's idea. Carver could've had Sam apologize waaay before that and didn't, so I don't think it was even on his agenda. And since the apology happened in the second half of the season when I think Carver had one foot out the door (Carver didn't write any episodes after the season 11 premier,) and the set up for the apology happened in Dabb's episode (that's when Lucifer showed Sam the flashbacks from season 8 that triggered the apology), I'd more say it was Dabb rather than Carver who set up Sam's apology.

Aeryn13 · April 29, 2018

Quote

My issues here is that Sam only listed ways Dean had to change. He never acknowledged he needed to change his behavior.

Also, IMO, if the intent behind that scene wasn't to blame Dean why didn't the writers allow Dean a counter argument where he was allowed to point out the the multiple times he gave Ruby a chance, and how he told Sam he could keep his secrets just stop lying.

Because allowing Dean to point that out shows that Sam was putting the blame on Dean's shoulders becasue the Dean gave Sam space to make his own decisions.

If it was a real conversation about changing the dynamics of the relationship then Dean should have been given a voice, not just a list of Sam's demands and Dean told he had to follow them or else.

I agree. They did it like they always do. Dean got to say something in the Season 5 Premiere, then there is the "very special lesson" episode where he is wrong, wrong, wrong, then the definitive conversation over the issue happens. And in that Dean doesn`t get to voice any counterarguments, only ends up apologizing, thereby invalidating any argument he might have made before that episode.

That`s what Fallen Idols was, it was the episode that concluded their relationship problems from Season 4 and it did so by pointing out everything was because Dean had been a big bully and he needed to change and respect Sam more. Welcome retcon-city where no peep was made on Sam disrespecting the hell out of "weak" Dean during Season 4. Dean apologized and promised to change.

They did a mini-arc like that with Mary in Season 12. One episode Dean gets to voice his grievances with Mary, then the next he apologizes for daring to speak out of turn and that he only wanted her to be "mommy". Urgh.

Or the beginning of this year when he got to have his say, I KNEW it would be invalidated and end with him admitting what a wrong dick he had been and needing to change. The only thing I was wrong about was Missouri delivering that lesson, instead it was one episode later with grief "counseling".

At this point, I cringe whenever the character gets a voice to tell his own side of things. Because you can just count down to when he will be completely invalidated for it and everything will be retconned to be his fault. Sometimes, it`s one episode, sometimes it`s two or three. Still, it`s like death and taxes, inevitable.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Huh? I never said that.

You said something about Dean being pissed at his soldiers for failing their mission. To me, that would require blame, so I was wondering. YMMV

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s what Fallen Idols was, it was the episode that concluded their relationship problems from Season 4 and it did so by pointing out everything was because Dean had been a big bully and he needed to change and respect Sam more. Welcome retcon-city where no peep was made on Sam disrespecting the hell out of "weak" Dean during Season 4. Dean apologized and promised to change.

At this point in the story, Sam was already in the process of making changes. He was showing change through his actions. When Sam disrespected the Hell out of "weak" Dean, he was being controlled by the Siren and really it was only the demon blood that made Sam feel stronger in the first place. Since the demon blood isn't in play anymore, the whole bringing up "weak Dean" would be pointless.

If the case is that one brother should apologize for their actions while under a supernatural influence, and it should be brought up again after the fact.... how about they bring up MOC Dean's accusations and Blame towards Sam after Charlie's Death. How about Demon Deans accusations that Sam's existence sucked the life out of his life and got his mother killed? Never were there any peeps made about those after the fact either, but supposedly only Sam should be held accountable for what he says while under the influence of a Siren.

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Besides I don't generally see the people who are condemning Sam because he supposedly didn't rectify his hubris also saying that Dean should've rectified his hubris in season 9 and so how awful is Dean for not doing that. If it's so awful for Sam, then why isn't it awful for Dean? And unlike Sam in season 5, the show never said that Dean's hubris was a problem at all that I remember... it even had God say "ehn Dean making that decision was no problem" and then blamed everything on Sam. Talk about the show not acknowledging a character's hubris...

So I'm jut not seeing why Sam not being punished enough or having his arrogance be called out enough - in your opinion - in season 5 is so awful, but Dean, doing just as arrogant things (taking on the mark recklessly and pronouncing himself the one in charge, and deciding for Sam to allow Gadreel to stay and pronouncing himself right) with no acknowledgement at all that this was hubris - which it was - by the show or Dean is somehow not even worth mentioning as a show failing or something to think Dean is awful for.

I don't get why it's supposedly a legitimate reason to condemn one brother, but not the other.

(I personally don't see it as a reason to condemn either brother myself.)

Because to do so would be to have to admit that MOC Dean was arrogant and had a whole wack of Hubris to begin with, so it's easier to ignore it for some reason and stick to the narrative that only Sam has acted with arrogance and hubris.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

Aeryn13 · April 29, 2018

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When Sam disrespected the Hell out of "weak" Dean, he was being controlled by the Siren

I wasn`t even talking about the Siren. The point in Season 4 when I threw up my hands in disgust is when Dean said something like "you don`t have to tell me whatever secret, just do me the courtesy and not blatantly lie to my face" and Sam looked at him and immediately lied to his face. And while the Siren spell made him say some things in the cruelest manner possible, he made the same points, just less cruel outside of that spell.

The reason I don`t attribute it all the demon blood is that hubris has been, at least for me, Sam`s main character flaw since the beginning of the show. The demon blood made it so much worse but it was there before and after. The levels vary from Season to Season but it has never truly been worked on in my book. Since the writers obviously don`t think it is a flaw but the character is superior to Dean in the ways that count.

Dean`s main character flaw isn`t hubris, it`s a tendency to be pathetic when it comes to family. And believe me that is in no way a better or nicer thing for me. In essence, I find it worse. And he does get dragged for that all over the freaking show.

Quote

If the case is that one brother should apologize for their actions while under a supernatural influence, and it should be brought up again after the fact..

Sam himself didn`t hold to his own standards when it comes to that. After Dean was hit with that cursed penny in Season 8, Sam called him to task for what he said under the influence. Whereas both after Asylum and the Siren spell, Sam held a different opinion on things said and done under the influence.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wasn`t even talking about the Siren. The point in Season 4 when I threw up my hands in disgust is when Dean said something like "you don`t have to tell me whatever secret, just do me the courtesy and not blatantly lie to my face" and Sam looked at him and immediately lied to his face. And while the Siren spell made him say some things in the cruelest manner possible, he made the same points, just less cruel outside of that spell.

The reason I don`t attribute it all the demon blood is that hubris has been, at least for me, Sam`s main character flaw since the beginning of the show. The demon blood made it so much worse but it was there before and after. The levels vary from Season to Season but it has never truly been worked on in my book. Since the writers obviously don`t think it is a flaw but the character is superior to Dean in the ways that count.

Dean`s main character flaw isn`t hubris, it`s a tendency to be pathetic when it comes to family. And believe me that is in no way a better or nicer thing for me. In essence, I find it worse. And he does get dragged for that all over the freaking show.

Sam himself didn`t hold to his own standards when it comes to that. After Dean was hit with that cursed penny in Season 8, Sam called him to task for what he said under the influence. Whereas both after Asylum and the Siren spell, Sam held a different opinion on things said and done under the influence.

I definitely don't see what you do with Sam. Generally, you don't see Sam rushing into a situation and leaving Dean behind because Sam believes him to be the only one who could do something. If Sam had this arrogance and Hubris as his regular self as you claim, I don't think he would be so willing to follow so much in his life and let Dean lead. That's not generally a behaviour you would see for someone with Hubris and arrogance. Even so much as last year, Sam was hesitant to go lead the hunters to the BMOL without Dean.

This is how I see it. I think people refer to Dean's flaw as wanting to sacrifice himself for his family and keep his family safe because it's something that can be seen as a positive attribute also. On the other hand, this portrays Dean as someone who would do anything for his family. That narrative also portrays him as selfless and brave and "poor Dean" doesn't care about himself while apparently pointing out a flaw. IMO, I think people are kidding themselves when they claim this is his only flaw as a character. I'm not saying that Dean isn't brave and at times selfless, but I just can't get behind this narrative that some people here hold that everything Sam does is selfish and Dean's only flaw shows just how selfless and sacrificing he is a character. This also conveniently gives the excuse to Dean anytime he runs off and does something on his own like in the last episode. Well he was just doing it to protect his family, that way no one can accuse him of Hubris.

After Asylum Sam apologized for the comments about Dean following John's orders. Sam saw the error in his ways of thinking in Something WIcked when he told Dean he now understands why Dean always felt the need to follow Dean's orders. And regardless of what happened with the Penny and Sam brining it up afterwards, my original comment still stands. Sam didn't bring up the Charlie thing or the things Demon Dean said. Nor did the narrative. Why is this ok, but not the Siren incident with Sam? Dean fans are the ones that have the problem with the Siren episode and seem to want it brought up. I would be ok with it all being brought up or not. But why should it be so important for the Siren episode to be brought up again and dealt with but yet you don't seem to care about the Charlie and Demon Dean thing? Is it because it would call out something negative that Dean said to Sam? I say bring it all out then. The Siren thing, the Charlie thing and the Demon Dean thing. I would be ok with that.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Reganne

Aeryn13 · April 29, 2018

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IMO, I think people are kidding themselves when they claim this is his only flaw as a character.

I didn`t say "only", I said for me it was his main flaw. And I chose the word "pathetic". Which is gigantic negative for me. Like how Dean acted in the werewolf episode that had Super!Sam. I cringed my way through that.

Now Dean, luckily, isn`t only that. Or is like that all the time. Because in that case, I couldn`t stomach it. It pains me enough when it happens.

That`s why the Purge speech rankled so much. It painted Dean in the most negative terms a character can be in my book. Cowardly and weak are THE worst things to me. Even if someone was evil, that`s still ways better.

I get that not everyone looks at things the same way but this is how I view them. Just as for me supernaturally-based storylines are the ones that I call actually storylines in a show like that and pure emo stuff doesn`t count for much in my book.

Those are my priorities and my outlook, both storywise and characterwise.

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And regardless of what happened with the Penny and Sam brining it up afterwards, my original comment still stands. Sam didn't bring up the Charlie thing or the things Demon Dean said. Nor did the narrative. Why is this ok, but not the Siren incident with Sam?

It`s not like the narrative brings up the Siren incident either. So this is basically about what fans wish to see?

Personally, I don`t care at this point for the Siren thing to be dragged back from the past. What would be the point?

If I have a wishlist on things to be brought up it would be stuff like Dean`s hell time - and not in a jokey or demeaning way. Why was Sam`s hell time adressed so often but Dean`s went poof after Season 4?

In general, I`d much rather see something, anything, that acknowledges Dean`s strength of character. That gives him a chance to display it And this doesn`t have to be some zero sum game where Sam has to be weak in comparism, I just want it to be kept to Dean. I soak up little moments when it happens like a sponge. Unfortunately, that makes me a very dry sponge overall.

As for the personal relationship between the brothers and everything that happened between them, I genuinely meant it when I said I don`t want big convos about the past and who had issues with whom over what. This can never end well for Dean and I don`t care either way. The show trashed the relationship beyond repair for me so anything that lets me ignore it is good in my book.

Yes, Sam annoyed me with the kiddie table comment last episode but compared to other things, it was relatively mild. These days the best scenario I can stomach the brothers in as an entity is when they are united against someone/something else. It doesn`t even have to be in antagonistic way but stuff like giving WTF-looks to someone. This is the level I`m good at with them.

Res · April 29, 2018

I'm going to post this here as it was brought up in the current episode's thread and is sort of related to the current discussion.

IMO, I really don't think that Sam actually likes Dean that much. In fact, I think there are several times when I'd say Sam outright hates Dean but he does love Dean as Dean is his family. I know that sounds weird and my family dynamic wasn't really allowed to be this way but I've seen where others here have talked about their sibling rivalry was in some ways similar. And it might just be Jared's mannerisms or acting but I do think there are several times where he is really, REALLY not liking Dean which is understandable. I mean, Dean does sometimes treat him like a child due to their unique childhood and that's something that neither one of them could help because that's the situation John put them in. But at this stage in life, the comment about the "kids' table" was one from a "child" to a "parent" telling the parent that they have grown up and stop it already. However, there were much better ways to say what he wanted to say.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If I have a wishlist on things to be brought up it would be stuff like Dean`s hell time - and not in a jokey or demeaning way. Why was Sam`s hell time adressed so often but Dean`s went poof after Season 4?

I think the writers just happen to focus on different things for the characters. Dean generally has the other emotional scenes. Sam's emotional state has only been briefly focused on before moving on this season for example. Dean got the grief arc at the beginning of the season and the narrative is now focusing on his frustrations and his depression arc. Sam's was really only glossed over a bit. I do think however, that whatever Dean is gearing up to do, the emotional arc for Dean this season is probably leading into it. I'm going to guess that's why there is more of a focus on Dean's emotional state as opposed to Sam's.

As far as hell time, I think they choose to focus more on Sam's right now because Lucifer is still a player on the board where as Alistair is not. I think these emotional moments for the characters are more story based and what fits into the narrative.

Aeryn13 · April 29, 2018

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Dean got the grief arc at the beginning of the season and the narrative is now focusing on his frustrations and his depression arc.

Unfortunately, I don`t care for either of those things, nor call them "arcs". And it has been such retread ground for Dean`s character, I hated it years ago. Let alone now. I`m just mumbling: "make it stop, make it stop, make it stop" all the time.

Because really, it is the opposite of my stated wish to feature character strength for Dean in how they are writing it. And the disdainful way the narrative treats him in most of those stories, I really can do without.

Quote

I think the writers just happen to focus on different things for the characters.

To IMO their great misfortune. Things would play out much more smoothly if they spread things around between characters.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Aeryn13

Pondlass1 · April 29, 2018

We can argue our favourite until the ends of time. It's only human nature. Dean carries the weight of consequences. Sam points fingers. That's how I see it.

belbar · April 29, 2018

1 hour ago, Res said:

I'm going to post this here as it was brought up in the current episode's thread and is sort of related to the current discussion.

IMO, I really don't think that Sam actually likes Dean that much. In fact, I think there are several times when I'd say Sam outright hates Dean but he does love Dean as Dean is his family. I know that sounds weird and my family dynamic wasn't really allowed to be this way but I've seen where others here have talked about their sibling rivalry was in some ways similar. And it might just be Jared's mannerisms or acting but I do think there are several times where he is really, REALLY not liking Dean which is understandable. I mean, Dean does sometimes treat him like a child due to their unique childhood and that's something that neither one of them could help because that's the situation John put them in. But at this stage in life, the comment about the "kids' table" was one from a "child" to a "parent" telling the parent that they have grown up and stop it already. However, there were much better ways to say what he wanted to say.

I do think that they love each other, but I've always felt that Sam resents Dean for a lot of things, many of them being his own shortcomings and perceptions (being those right or wrong). Now, I think that after what we saw of Demon Dean, he also has some resentment. Before the S10E03 episode I'd have said that it was addressed towards John, after that I'm not so sure. Maybe Sam shares a part of it. Their relation is, I don't know if as much as convulted, but for sure far from simple.

Edited April 29, 2018 by belbar
grammar.

Pondlass1 · April 29, 2018

Sam resents Dean for being a bossy leader. But I think he also admires him for it.

Dad did a number on Dean. He will protect and put Sam first no matter what. Which must be difficult for Sam to live with, I guess. Sam feels Dean is free to die, but he isn't.

Reganne · April 29, 2018

34 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Unfortunately, I don`t care for either of those things, nor call them "arcs". And it has been such retread ground for Dean`s character, I hated it years ago. Let alone now. I`m just mumbling: "make it stop, make it stop, make it stop" all the time.

Because really, it is the opposite of my stated wish to feature character strength for Dean in how they are writing it. And the disdainful way the narrative treats him in most of those stories, I really can do without.

To IMO their great misfortune. Things would play out much more smoothly if they spread things around between characters.

I have to agree with you on the bolded part. I would love for Sam to have more emotional arcs. I've always felt the writing lacks for emotional stuff when it comes to Sam. I know people think that Jensen is the one who thrives in emotional scenes and I agree that he does. However, I have seen Sacrifice and My Brother's Keeper and I know that Jared can pull it off as well so I never really understand why the writing isn't there for emotional arcs with Sam. IMO, they are always glossed over.

Aeryn13 · April 29, 2018

Quote

I would love for Sam to have more emotional arcs.

I would have absolutely no problem with that if Dean got the arcs and the writing that I like.

Don`t understand why they basically starve both fanbases in different areas. What`s the point?

Reganne · April 29, 2018

44 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

We can argue our favourite until the ends of time. It's only human nature. Dean carries the weight of consequences. Sam points fingers. That's how I see it.

Dean Winchester "Maybe the apocalypse has them all hot and bothered. Yeah, well we all know who's fault that is."

Sometimes Dean points fingers too.

gonzosgirrl · April 29, 2018

45 minutes ago, belbar said:

I do think that they love each other, but I've always felt that Sam resents Dean for a lot of things, many of them being his own shortcomings and perceptions (being those right or wrong). Now, I think that after what we saw of Demon Dean, he also has some resentment. Before the S10E03 episode I'd have said that it was addressed towards John, after that I'm not so sure. Maybe Sam shares a part of it. Their relation is, I don't know if as much as convulted, but for sure from simple.

I've talked about this several times in this thread and elsewhere. I have always felt that Sam doesn't like Dean, and I am talking from their first scene together onward. He is almost always condescending, if not outright nasty about the things Dean loves (music, the car, food, women), and he sees him as intellectually inferior. The few times he compliments him to his face, he has other (I hesitate to use the word ulterior, but other) motives for doing so. And yes, I'm ready for the 'Dean insults him, too' argument, but I just don't buy it. Dean teases him for 'positive' things, too smart, too bookish, too pretty hair. Sam insults his intelligence, his morals, his whole raison d'etre at times. So yes, I believe Sam loves Dean, but I don't believe he likes or even admires him, like at all, and I don't believe the opposite is true.

ETA: and I would go as far as to say I think at least part of the reason for Sam's 'attitude' is some of the writers' projection. The writing (and direction) for Sam vis a vis Dean at times seems to me petty to the point of being personal.

Edited April 29, 2018 by gonzosgirrl
inferior and ulterior not the same thing

belbar · April 29, 2018

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I've talked about this several times in this thread and elsewhere. I have always felt that Sam doesn't like Dean, and I am talking from their first scene together onward. He is almost always condescending, if not outright nasty about the things Dean loves (music, the car, food, women), and he sees him as intellectually inferior. The few times he compliments him to his face, he has other (I hesitate to use the word inferior, but other) motives for doing so. And yes, I'm ready for the 'Dean insults him, too' argument, but I just don't buy it. Dean teases him for 'positive' things, too smart, too bookish, too pretty hair. Sam insults his intelligence, his morals, his whole raison d'etre at times. So yes, I believe Sam loves Dean, but I don't believe he likes or even admires him, like at all, and I don't believe the opposite is true.

You won't hear an argument from me on that. The eternal condescendence of Sam is one his worst characteristics in general and making it addressed to his own brother makes it more despicable to me.

belbar · April 29, 2018

39 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Sam resents Dean for being a bossy leader. But I think he also admires him for it.

Dad did a number on Dean. He will protect and put Sam first no matter what. Which must be difficult for Sam to live with, I guess. Sam feels Dean is free to die, but he isn't.

I think that it's more complicated than that. And I'm not so sure that Sam admires Dean for his leadership position. What I think is that he wants to be the one calling the shots and is probably one of the reasons for his resentment, but not the only one. Problem is I think he's good at working in team. He usually offers alternatives and good ideas, but he wouldn't be a good leader. IMO

And I agree that dad did a number on Dean and he'll always put Sam first. It's more than proved. It's also the origin of many of his flaws.

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