“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yet Dean is on the hook still, for Sam's choices.

Always and some more. All Sam's poor choices were either blamed on Dean or excused because of supernatural influence, and that's only when they weren't being written as not poor choices to begin with (ie, not looking for Dean in Purgatory).

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And worse, AFAIK, to this day, I don't think Bobby ever learned that Sam strangled Dean. It was left out of the text and the subtext aside from how Jensen played that scene with Bobby. And by having Bobby, go after Dean with his boo hoo princess speech, they are saying essentially that no matter what Sam did in s4, Dean was still wrong for not trusting him. It was IMO, the worst undermining of a major plot point I think I've ever seen in this show.

I agree.  This is why I feel like Sam did end up coming out smelling like a rose, both s4 and 5.  

There were plenty of other ways that speech could have been written to get Dean back on board without dismissing or belittling everything that happened.

"Dean, I know your mad, but you can kick Sam's ass later.  I'll even help you, but I know you son.   I know that if there was a chance to save Sam, not matter how small and you didn't take it, you would never be able to live with yourself."

Same message but takes Dean's trauma into account.  The way the show went about it, tells me they never thought Sam was wrong.  It was always on Dean because he was bossy. 

Its a major problem I've had with Sam's characterization since s5.  Sam doesn't have any flaws.  His flaws are because other people don't accept his actions, not the actions themselves 

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

How Sam could ever do that or even think to do that tells me that somewhere inside Sam always hated Dean.

A case can be made for this.  But I personally think that neither Sam nor Dean like each other very much.   One thing, I've noticed is that whenever Sam or Dean lose their filter neither one really has anything nice to say about the other.

Edited August 23, 2018 by ILoveReading

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Then Fallen Idols dropped the whole mess in Dean's lap.  Dean was specifically written out of character to justify Sam's speech.  Dean didn't treat Sam like that in s4.  Sam made his own decisions.  Sam didn't go to Ruby to get away from Dean.  He went to Ruby because he wanted too.  The show can't have its cake and eat it too.  Sam thought Dean was weak.  So not sure how Dean made  Sam feel weak, in turn. 

My interpreting what Sam said didn't have to do with season 4 alone. I thought Sam was talking about season 3 being the genesis of it all. And for season 3, to me that makes sense. Sam felt like "the little brother" and not strong, because he felt powerless to save Dean from going to hell. Many times Sam would see Dean and hear Dean telling him that there was nothing Sam could do to save him (Dean) and that they should just enjoy the time Dean had left. So yes, Sam seeing Ruby - who said that they could save Dean - would make Sam feel "strong" and not like "a little brother" who Dean had sacrificed for. And continuing in to season 4, when Sam saw Dean then, Sam was reminded of how he didn't save Dean, how he was once again "the little brother" who had to be protected, but couldn't do the protecting in turn... so being with Dean reminded Sam of that failure - that he was the "little brother" screw up that big brother Dean had to sacrifice for. Going with Ruby made Sam feel "strong" because she was telling him he could do something. That he could be something more than a failure.

As Sam said this wasn't Dean's fault. Nor in my opinion was it implied to be by the dialogue, since the conversation even had Dean ask - in case there was any question - and Sam answer specifically "No, It was mine." In fact, it had little to do with Dean at all... which is pretty much what Sam said. There was no declaration of "You bossed me around and made me feel like a little brother." It was "I felt that way."

The show, in my opinion, wasn't trying to "have it's cake and eat it too," it was basically saying that Sam's feelings and issues were his own. Dean didn't do anything - beyond making the deal to begin with. It was all Sam's perception of himself in relation to Dean, in relation to his failure to save Dean, and his worth as an individual. Sam thinking Dean was weak later on was a separate issue, partially fueled by the demon blood and partially by getting that rush of feeling like the "strong" one for once. It was all an illusion, of course, but for one brief shinning, moment in Sam's damaged brain, it was a nice illusion that maybe this time he could be the one to do something right for once and prove that he wasn't a failure after all.

Dean was incidental in Sam's feelings in that he represented Sam's failure, but Dean didn't do anything, nor in my opinion, did Sam say that Dean did in any way, shape or form.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If it was cloudy or Dean treated the toy like Sam treated the amulet and kept it in the glove compartment the Dean would be dead and the world would be burning. 

I'm not sure what this is referring to. Sam wore Dean's amulet after Dean died, under his shirt, next to his heart. We know this because Sam was wearing it when Dean came back in "Lazarus Rising" when he returned it to Dean. As far as I know, Sam never put the amulet in the glove compartment. Now if it was meant that it was a good thing that Dean didn't treat the toy soldier like he (Dean) treated the amulet, then that would make more sense, because then the toy soldier would've been in the trash.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And by having Bobby, go after Dean with his boo hoo princess speech, they are saying essentially that no matter what Sam did in s4, Dean was still wrong for not trusting him.

And this still makes no sense to me. If the narrative wanted to show that Dean was wrong for not trusting Sam, that would've been fairly easy to do... have Ruby turn out to be good or make killing Lilith actually have been the way to stop the apocalypse - and then have something else go wrong and have it still happen anyway. Then yes, I would entirely think you were right. But having Sam's actions start an apocalypse and have every character they could manage talk about how it was Sam and his bad choices, and his not listening to Dean who caused it is not going to make me think that trusting Sam was the right way to go. It's going to tell me - literally since that's what they did - the opposite.

The reason Sam got to be "trusted" in season 5 was because he learned what mistakes that he'd made, and that it was flaws within himself that lead to that - his anger, his addictive personality, his arrogance, and his need to not be "the little brother" - and he changed. He addressed those things, beat his addiction, resisted the power, and stowed his anger and took his lumps from everyone - Dean, Castiel, demons, War, random hunters, Gabriel, etc. In my opinion, again, it wasn't about Dean or Dean trusting him. It was about Sam changing and earning Dean's trust back.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That "princess" scene will always make my blood boil, because it's not Dean's fault that Sam made those choices. 

Nope it wasn't, and as soon as Dean tried to save the world, then he could be as angry as he wanted to be. That's what heroes do, and that's why the narrative was showing Dean as the hero. He was the only one to put his - very justified - feelings and issues aside to do the right damn thing. As that scene showed, not even Bobby could put aside his issues... and what, big surprise Bobby has flaws. Most people and characters do.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam could have done any number of other things besides suck on Ruby's demon blood. 

Maybe. It wasn't like anyone gave him any options. The angels who Dean was listening to were just as bad as the demons and wanted the same thing.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

hen yes, I would entirely think you were right. But having Sam's actions start an apocalypse and have every character they could manage talk about how it was Sam and his bad choices, and his not listening to Dean who caused it is not going to make me think that trusting Sam was the right way to go. It's going to tell me - literally since that's what they did - the opposite.

 

13 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Nope it wasn't, and as soon as Dean tried to save the world, then he could be as angry as he wanted to be. That's what heroes do, and that's why the narrative was showing Dean as the hero. He was the only one to put his - very justified - feelings and issues aside to do the right damn thing. As that scene showed, not even Bobby could put aside h

IMO, the show used, arguably, the most revered character in s4 who was trusted by the boys and the audience who was the least problematic at that time and was the sage elder who was celebrated for cutting Dean down to size...the surrogate father who needed to shame Dean for not being there for Sam, which compelled Dean to call him. That made Bobby right and Dean wrong for daring to not believe in Sam.  And then in s5 they doubled down on that. Dean was too late to stop Sam but the damage was done to Dean's character. That's the key part. Not whether the outcome of stopping Lucifer from rising.

And to make it worse, they also had Bobby say "I can't hold my tongue any more" as though Bobby wasn't fully on board the detoxing Sam bandwagon at all. A complete 180 with no explanation other than, maybe WE are wrong and we are not doing right by the world for using Sam as a weapon.  I mean Dean didn't trust Sam, and he also didn't want him to be used as a weapon and in both cases Dean was raked over the coals and never given the chance again really to say, 'Bobby you were just as on board as me!" nor say to Bobby "Sam literally tried to strangle me".  That is IMO, the show telling me that Bobby was right and Dean was wrong. 

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

aybe. It wasn't like anyone gave him any options. The angels who Dean was listening to were just as bad as the demons and wanted the same thing.

At the time, angels were dicks but not thought to be trying to destroy humanity. That wasn't revealed until the end of s4. Like in the final episode. Cas didn't know what was going on until then.  

Demons had already proven they wanted to destroy humanity and Sam knew that.  Sam may not have had other options but he also still could have stopped at sucking on Ruby's blood.

But my point is really more that Sam choosing to choke the life out of Dean is a level that goes beyond demon blood influence IMO. I think it points to just how little respect Sam had for Dean. I think he loves Dean because he's his brother, but I don't believe he really looked up to him at all.  IMO if he did, I don't see how he could he put his hands around Dean's throat and start squeezing the life out of him, even if he didn't intend to finish the act.

[devlin]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

But my point is really more that Sam choosing to choke the life out of Dean is a level that goes beyond demon blood influence IMO. I think it points to just how little respect Sam had for Dean. I think he loves Dean because he's his brother, but I don't believe he really looked up to him at all.  IMO if he did, I don't see how he could he put his hands around Dean's throat and start squeezing the life out of him, even if he didn't intend to finish the act.

That act was the most horrific thing sam has ever done. He knelt over his brother who was beaten on the ground and defenceless and while staring him in the eye and wrapped his hands round his throat and started to choke the life out of him. That moment destroyed the character of sam for me and has always coloured how I view him now even 8 seasons down the track

[BlueSapphire]

I'm just curious why people think leadership ability should only be tied to Dean.  Sam can certainly take control if the situation arises to accomplish a goal.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, BlueSapphire said:

I'm just curious why people think leadership ability should only be tied to Dean.  Sam can certainly take control if the situation arises to accomplish a goal.

I don't think anyone has said that in their comments that I've read here.  

I won't speak for others, but for me, it's not that Sam shouldn't be a leader. In fact, if you were to read some of my other comments in this forum, I have said before that Sam has always shown leadership abilities and has lead people, but the writers don't seem to remember that Sam already showed those skills. For me, it's the execution of the shift more than the shift itself that I find obnoxious.

IMO, it's an inorganic path for Sam's character and to accomplish it they create artificial reasons for  Sam to be dubbed General Sam Winchester and make speeches in order to lead. And they IMO, altered Dean's character which is not the same as character growth but regression and IMO OOC behavior, or make him so injured so he takes himself out of the fight and give him some other task not to mention gives some artificial blessing to Sam to go lead.  Or take Dean  off the board altogether via the Michael!Dean SL. 

If they didn't have to take down Dean in order to elevate Sam to leader status along with Dean, I would be less annoyed by it.  

[BlueSapphire]

But Sam has had many instances of being tied up, knocked out, and out of the action quite a bit, but that's not OOC for him? 

[AwesomO4000]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

And to make it worse, they also had Bobby say "I can't hold my tongue any more" as though Bobby wasn't fully on board the detoxing Sam bandwagon at all. A complete 180 with no explanation other than, maybe WE are wrong and we are not doing right by the world for using Sam as a weapon.  I mean Dean didn't trust Sam, and he also didn't want him to be used as a weapon and in both cases Dean was raked over the coals and never given the chance again really to say, 'Bobby you were just as on board as me!" nor say to Bobby "Sam literally tried to strangle me".  That is IMO, the show telling me that Bobby was right and Dean was wrong. 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the show used, arguably, the most revered character in s4 who was trusted by the boys and the audience who was the least problematic at that time and was the sage elder who was celebrated for cutting Dean down to size...the surrogate father who needed to shame Dean for not being there for Sam, which compelled Dean to call him. That made Bobby right and Dean wrong for daring to not believe in Sam.  And then in s5 they doubled down on that. Dean was too late to stop Sam but the damage was done to Dean's character. That's the key part. Not whether the outcome of stopping Lucifer from rising.

Sorry... decided my post wasn't needed...

My main point was that I found Dean the least wrong of everybody involved (by far), so I didn't think the narrative damaged him in my eyes at all.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

At the time, angels were dicks but not thought to be trying to destroy humanity. That wasn't revealed until the end of s4. Like in the final episode. Cas didn't know what was going on until then.  

Uriel showed that he didn't like humans and was itching for any excuse to smite them from very early on. This was already suspect, but in "On the Head of a Pin" we and Castiel learned that Uriel - and his followers (and this is the important part) - wanted to raise Lucifer. So while not knowing exactly what was going on, Castiel knew that there were angels out there who wanted Lucifer raised, but Castiel kept that very relevant information to himself until it was too late, lying by omission to Dean, telling him only that Uriel was dead due to "disobedience."  If he had warned Dean earlier, Dean might've been able to find out what was going on - maybe even from Anna - before it was too late. I mean, considering that "It's A Terrible Life" maybe took place over a few weeks time, Castiel potentially sat on that information for a long time.

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

But my point is really more that Sam choosing to choke the life out of Dean is a level that goes beyond demon blood influence IMO. I think it points to just how little respect Sam had for Dean. I think he loves Dean because he's his brother, but I don't believe he really looked up to him at all.  IMO if he did, I don't see how he could he put his hands around Dean's throat and start squeezing the life out of him, even if he didn't intend to finish the act.

Sam himself said that he felt that he had already changed and was no longer himself, so for me I could see how it was possible that Sam was affected. Drinking a lot of the blood and using his powers to kill Lilith eventually did turn him into a demon (? - Sam had black eyes) according to Chuck, and Castiel said that it would happen, too I believe, so for me it isn't so far-fetched that Sam wasn't already on the way there in some ways and it was affecting his behavior and judgement.

For me, the problem is that for how big a thing it turned out to be, I didn't think that the narrative was all that specific as to exactly what the demon blood did to Sam, and what information we did get sometimes seemed to be confusing or even contradictory (to me). We were never even shown that moral event horizon of why Sam agreed to start drinking demon blood to begin with. For me, that was a pretty big plot point to "yada yada" over. "Just take our word for it. Sam started drinking demon blood for... reasons."

For all I know, Ruby could have tricked Sam into drinking some - much like that vampire did with his "drug" that was really his blood - and then said "see it wasn't so bad and look how it helped you." Probably not, but considering we have no information at all on how and why Sam started on demon blood, I can only guess at Sam's reasoning or motivation.

What I do know is that, in my opinion, Sam seemed entirely sincere when he told Dean how he had looked up to him his entire life when they were growing up, and Sam repeated that sentiment other times as well, and for me just as sincerely - "All Hell, Pt 2" being one example. And I saw it in that memory of the field of fireworks from "Dark Side of the Moon."

So based on the information I do have - versus information we were never given - I tend to give Sam some benefit of the doubt.

Edited August 24, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, BlueSapphire said:

But Sam has had many instances of being tied up, knocked out, and out of the action quite a bit, but that's not OOC for him? 

I was speaking specifically about 12.22 and 13.23 and the General Sam Winchester narrative building.

Both Dean and Sam are knocked out etc in many episodes and nothing so artificially altered the characters like the General Winchester thing...IMO. 

[ahrtee]

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

What I do know is that, in my opinion, Sam seemed entirely sincere when he told Dean how he had looked up to him his entire life when they were growing up, and Sam repeated that sentiment other times as well, and for me just as sincerely - "All Hell, Pt 2" being one example. And I saw it in that memory of the field of fireworks from "Dark Side of the Moon."

I wouldn't count that one as showing how Sam looked up to Dean.  For one thing--it was Dean's happy memory of Sam thanking him for something (which might imply that that was a rare occurrence!) and not Sam's memory of being happy.  For another, Sam was happy because Dean had disobeyed John and done something *for* Sam that John wouldn't have allowed.  IMO, that might seem a tad selfish.

In other times when Sam *did* tell Dean that he'd looked up to him, it was always as "you're my big brother."  To kids, I think little siblings always "look up" to the older ones, at least till they're old enough to make up their own minds about how to do things.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they like them or not, and much of the time there's an element of resentment in it, too, especially if the older is being held up as an example (good or bad) by the parents.

That's not to say Sam didn't look up to Dean as a kid, just that it doesn't mean much to their adult relationship.  

10 hours ago, BlueSapphire said:

But Sam has had many instances of being tied up, knocked out, and out of the action quite a bit, but that's not OOC for him? 

In every other incident, being tied up and knocked out might take them out of the immediate action if they're incapacitated, but once they're free/awake, they jump back in the fight.  No one has ever *voluntarily* backed out of a fight *before* it happened, especially one so big that it was "all hands on deck" for a siege.  And Dean has never before (IIRC) let Sam go into a big fight without being there to watch his back, no matter how many other hunters were with him, and especially without having backup by hunters they trust, like Bobby and Rufus.  This time they only had ones they hadn't worked with before--including two that had already tried to kill them years before--and Jody, still a newbie.  That *does* seem OOC for Dean.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

For another, Sam was happy because Dean had disobeyed John and done something *for* Sam that John wouldn't have allowed.  IMO, that might seem a tad selfish.

Well Sam was a tween, so selfishness is kind of the norm... and I still saw Memory Sam looking up to Dean, because Dean had gone against John's rules in order to do this for Sam. In other words, to me, Sam seemed impressed and admiring of Dean for daring to defy John, and looked like he was thinking Dean was the best brother ever to do that.

And I guess that was my point. That I have seen times where I thought Sam was sincerely showing that he looked up to and respected Dean.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

In other times when Sam *did* tell Dean that he'd looked up to him, it was always as "you're my big brother."  To kids, I think little siblings always "look up" to the older ones, at least till they're old enough to make up their own minds about how to do things.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether they like them or not, and much of the time there's an element of resentment in it, too, especially if the older is being held up as an example (good or bad) by the parents.

I agree. It's a double edged sword... which is one of the reasons why I still contend that the "Fallen Idols" thing was mostly about Sam and had little to do with anything Dean did. For me, that was Sam confessing the thing you're referencing here: an element of resentment for feeling like "the little brother" when he was with Dean. Sometimes family dynamics are what they are. Even if when Sam loves Dean, he could still sometimes feel badly about, dislike, and/or want to get away from certain feelings he might have while with Dean, just because of how family dynamics make him (Sam) feel. I just happen to think those things can exist together - i.e. that Sam can look up to, love, and even really like Dean, but still not always be able to shake those family dynamics and feelings that might creep in. And if circumstances exacerbate that - which yeah, season 4 was full of exacerbating circumstances - they might be even harder to shake, no matter how much someone might want to do so. So sometimes you just have to get away until you don't feel them anymore.

Memories and brains are weird things... sometimes they even lie to you. And even when you want to let something go, sometimes you just can't. And sometimes you do let things go most of the time and don't even much think of it at all consciously, maybe even think you've gotten over it all, but (personal experience here) something happens to trigger something and things and feelings come back and you feel those feelings again for a while, even if you don't want to. I get that, which is why I get Sam. He's deeply flawed, and sometimes not even likeable, but I get him.^^^ And when Sam does have one of those moments of clarity or expresses one of those unabashed moments of love and devotion, it makes it all the more impactful*** for me, because he does have to overcome all of those insecurities and feelings he wishes that he didn't have and that he hides behind his bravado. The kid who felt like he didn't belong and could never measure up - maybe was even "tainted" - and still fears that deep down underneath the outward confidence.

^^^ Most of the time... Carver's version of Sam circa season 8A and 9B: not so much.

*** What do you mean that's not a word? It should be, in my opinion.

[ahrtee]

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree. It's a double edged sword... which is one of the reasons why I still contend that the "Fallen Idols" thing was mostly about Sam and had little to do with anything Dean did. For me, that was Sam confessing the thing you're referencing here: an element of resentment for feeling like "the little brother" when he was with Dean. Sometimes family dynamics are what they are. Even if when Sam loves Dean, he could still sometimes feel badly about, dislike, and/or want to get away from certain feelings he might have while with Dean, just because of how family dynamics make him (Sam) feel. I just happen to think those things can exist together - i.e. that Sam can look up to, love, and even really like Dean, but still not always be able to shake those family dynamics and feelings that might creep in. And if circumstances exacerbate that - which yeah, season 4 was full of exacerbating circumstances - they might be even harder to shake, no matter how much someone might want to do so. So sometimes you just have to get away until you don't feel them anymore.

And that's the problem I had/have with Sam.  Because, yes, IA that Fallen Idols was about Sam, but *HE BLAMED DEAN.*  And insisted that Dean be the one to change his behavior, rather than thinking that maybe it's his *reaction* that created his own problems or maybe (just maybe) he *deserved* to be on probation for more than a few episodes.  There was a major breach of trust that had to be overcome, and insisting that Dean not only get over it already but change his behavior to make *Sam* happy is not the best way to prove that he's an adult.  

There are certain family dynamics that stick with you, no matter how old you get.  Your parents are always going to treat you like children, because to them, you are.  (And for better or worse, Dean was, in all practicality, Sam's parent.)  What becomes different as you grow up (and especially when you separate from the family, like, oh, after 3 years of college completely on your own) is that you find out who you are, apart from your family.   And that means that, by the time you're pushing 30, even if your parents are patting you on the head and telling you to drink your milk, you should be able to say politely, "no thanks, I want a beer."  You don't stamp your feet, blame them for being who they are, and complain that they're "not letting you grow up."

[AwesomO4000]

21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And that means that, by the time you're pushing 30, even if your parents are patting you on the head and telling you to drink your milk, you should be able to say politely, "no thanks, I want a beer."  You don't stamp your feet, blame them for being who they are, and complain that they're "not letting you grow up."

This I agree with you on... That was some awkward as shit dialogue in that episode - which might explain why the writer only wrote 2 more also somewhat iffy episodes and was gone - but I disagree that Sam insisted that Dean "get over it." Or at least only in so far as it affected their job, because - based on the somewhat out of character and clunky set up we got - it needed to happen. Dean can be as angry as he wants - which Sam agreed Dean could and that he (Sam) deserved it - but pretty much if Dean isn't going to trust Sam in terms of their job... well then they shouldn't have been working together, in my opinion. It makes the situation dangerous... for them and the people they are trying to save. Sam has no way to gauge whether Dean is going to do something risky because he doesn't trust Sam to back him up and thereby maybe cause the situation to get hairy.

I guess like I had to accept that because of the awful, clunky, and in my opinion out of character speech that happened in "The Purge"  we had to get "I lied" and most of the other crap we got at the end of season 9 (though I contend the "friend" stuff still went too far) because that's how it had to go based on the set up, I think so is the case here. Dean was out of character, the set up was clunky, but once it was out there, it had to be dealt with, in my opinion. The reason why Sam wasn't saying anything about changing himself here, was because based on the clunky set up, Sam didn't really do anything wrong in this situation. Based on the set up, Sam was trying to make changes with his behavior, but again according to the clunky set up, that didn't work in this case. Sam couldn't exactly just say "yes Dean, case over. We'll go now," because he didn't believe that was the case (and according to the clunky set up, he was right about that). And the "you have to let me grow up" stupidity aside, Sam's (paraphrase) "before isn't going to work," was in my opinion, Sam's version of "no thanks, I want a beer." It was basically "If we're going to work together, we have to work as partners and you trust my judgement on the job - or we don't work together."

And for Sam those two things can be differentiated. We saw that in season 9. Sam said he couldn't trust Dean yet in their relationship, but he did trust Dean when it came to hunting. And Sam showed that in how he wanted to work with Dean to get Abaddon and insisted that they go after Metatron together.

So yeah, definitely Sam deserved to be on probation for longer - and he basically was in terms of how Dean thought, because whatever Dean said here in "Fallen Idols" it apparently didn't stick*** - but based on the clunky set up, that wasn't going to work in terms of a hunting relationship, because...

I think the show pretty much showed the problems with that kind of situation previously with John and Dean. John and Dean weren't really partners in their hunting, in my opinion, and I always got the feeling that even though they "got the job done" my guess was they got the job done at the expense of and because of Dean. In my opinion, Dean and John were a successful team in spite of John's dickish ways, not because of them. And I think what we learned about John and Ellen's husband backed that up (and made me think that Dean was likely both lucky and really good to have not had something similar happen to himself while working with John). From what I've seen in the show, hunting partners have to trust each other on the job or it goes badly in one way or another. In my opinion, that's just the way it is. So if Dean couldn't trust Sam and wasn't willing to on the job either, I don't think they should have been working together until Dean was ready... just my opinion on that.

*** Those triggers I was talking about above. And that ended up turning out badly. I know many here think that Dean's Michael strategy was perfectly reasonable. I disagree, but even if I accepted that it was, how Dean went about it was not. It was dangerous and could have lead to disaster, and that was because Dean ended up thinking that he couldn't trust anyone but himself. Not even Castiel or Bobby.

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Because, yes, IA that Fallen Idols was about Sam, but *HE BLAMED DEAN.* 

And I still say don't agree with this. I thought the "no it's my fault" was pretty straightforward. And that the "I went with Ruby because she made me feel like not your little brother" was the clunky way of Sam saying that he felt those family restrictions with Dean - as I described above - and tried to use his time with Ruby - as delusional as it was - to (unsuccessfully and to dire consequences) combat that. And I'm not going to base an entire character trait on one badly written episode - especially when it doesn't bear out based on what I saw on every other episode of the season or thereafter*** - so we aren't ever going to agree on that. I can be told "He Blamed Dean" a hundred different times and ways, but I don't and am never going to see it, because the evidence is just not there, in my opinion. There was no "you were too bossy" or "you made me feel that way." There was "it was my fault" and "I felt that way." For me, much different. Your miles may vary.

*** Until maybe Carver, but that's another discussion I don't want to go into today.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

There was no "you were too bossy" or "you made me feel that way." There was "it was my fault" and "I felt that way." For me, much different. Your miles may vary.

But there was also no, "I'll have to work on that," or "I know it's my problem so I'll try to get over it" or even "That really bothers me.  Is there some way we can work around it?"  There was "YOU have to change.  YOU have to fix it."  That's not taking responsibility, and is indirect blame at best.  And he's repeated that trope over and over, not just in that one episode, but every time Dean does something that seems to hit that trigger (such as "putting me at the kiddie table.")  So he can scream "mea culpa" all he wants, but his actions haven't shown that he seriously believes that.  JMO.

[DeeDee79]

16 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But there was also no, "I'll have to work on that," or "I know it's my problem so I'll try to get over it" or even "That really bothers me.  Is there some way we can work around it?"  There was "YOU have to change.  YOU have to fix it."  That's not taking responsibility, and is indirect blame at best.  And he's repeated that trope over and over, not just in that one episode, but every time Dean does something that seems to hit that trigger (such as "putting me at the kiddie table.")  So he can scream "mea culpa" all he wants, but his actions haven't shown that he seriously believes that.  JMO.

Agree 100%!

[Airmid]

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 12:55 PM, ILoveReading said:

A case can be made for this.  But I personally think that neither Sam nor Dean like each other very much.   One thing, I've noticed is that whenever Sam or Dean lose their filter neither one really has anything nice to say about the other.

1

 

This honestly really bothers me, especially in the later seasons. When I look back at like the third season, such as Mystery Spot, there is something there that's more than just Sam feeling like he had a duty to save Dean. Both when he had to watch Dean be shot and die in his arms, and when he got him back and just grabbed him. Or when Dean was ripped apart by the hellhounds, you could really feel Sam's grief and that it was deep. A lot was said without words, and that seems to be something that's missing now. In S7, I did get a sense that their relationship was much better, more stable, and growing closer despite what was going on. And that all came crashing down in S8 when Sam hit a dog and basically abandoned everyone for no real reason. It was terrible and helped ruin the character for me that I was just beginning to like again. 

I'm not particularly fond of watching two brothers together because they feel obligated to be together. It's depressing.

 

On ‎8‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 3:35 PM, catrox14 said:

At the time, angels were dicks but not thought to be trying to destroy humanity. That wasn't revealed until the end of s4. Like in the final episode. Cas didn't know what was going on until then.  

Demons had already proven they wanted to destroy humanity and Sam knew that.  Sam may not have had other options but he also still could have stopped at sucking on Ruby's blood.

But my point is really more that Sam choosing to choke the life out of Dean is a level that goes beyond demon blood influence IMO. I think it points to just how little respect Sam had for Dean. I think he loves Dean because he's his brother, but I don't believe he really looked up to him at all.  IMO if he did, I don't see how he could he put his hands around Dean's throat and start squeezing the life out of him, even if he didn't intend to finish the act.

 

I totally agree that Sam should have just not gone down the demon blood route because he simply should have known better. Period.

However, I don't have as big of a problem with how he acted. I think that is partially due to having seen addicts in action. Seeing people who are on dangerous drugs and have just taken a hit - well, they can do violent things when confronted that they wouldn't normally do even an hour later. Looking at Sam, he had been starved by Ruby for an unknown period of time, tricked into detox where all kinds of nasty things happened, got out, and had just gotten high for the first time in quite a while. That coupled with the fact that demon blood feeds rage, it's not surprising that being confronted at that time made him just act out of all the anger he had stored up magnified by what he was using. It was what Lucifer wanted him to be, blinded by his anger, his want to be powerful, no matter who was in front of him.  If Dean had found him a couple hours later, I don't think it would have went down that way, as he wouldn't be so enthralled by getting high again. 

Long story short: Addicts do really bad things but sometimes you can find the decent person still alive in there when they aren't caught in the high and convince them to come home.

The problem I have with Sam is that he showed some remorse and contrition in Lucifer Rising. He knew he had gone too far, that he felt he wouldn't be able to ever make up what he did and things with his brother were basically over. That part was fine. It was how he kept going and decided to suck a nurse dry with the human in the driver seat (implied she was begging him to stop while this was happening) that I can't go along with. It was straight up murder for revenge, and that's when Sam became unsalvagable to me for a long time. Even in Point of No Return, where I really liked Sam (despite the mess of an episode) and he showed support and belief in his brother that helped Dean keep fighting, I still kept thinking about what he did.

Dean broke the first seal through his actions but he did so unknowingly. I really wish they had found a way for Sam to do the same without going so far down the rabbit hole that the character was buried. Sam willingly killed someone in cold blood, demon-infested or not while he was totally in control, to get his way, regardless of the cost or the consequences. It still bothers me. 

Just my opinion of course. I can definitely see how that scene was just a deal breaker for fans on Sam himself. It was a nasty, nasty, scene from start to finish. It's a hard one to watch, and despite my feeling on it, I do think they went overboard on just how far Sam went. 

And I also agree that it does feel at times that Sam has little respect for Dean. That's been an issue between them since season one (i.e. Dean's homemade EMF meter in Phantom Traveler). It makes me sad that at times it feels like the person Dean loves most in the world keeps him around just out of habit. 

[DeeDee79]

21 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It makes me sad that at times it feels like the person Dean loves most in the world keeps him around just out of habit. 

I agree with your entire post but this part absolutely gutted me. *sobs*

[Res]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree with your entire post but this part absolutely gutted me. *sobs*

It gutted me as well, mainly because I believe it is so true.

Sam, as a character, became unsalvageable IMO in S4 and never recovered for me. The willing murder of the nurse in addition to intentionally strangling his brother was way over the line for me, addict or no. S8 Sam completely eliminated him as anyone I could ever give a damn about. 

[Casseiopeia]

31 minutes ago, Airmid said:

And I also agree that it does feel at times that Sam has little respect for Dean. That's been an issue between them since season one (i.e. Dean's homemade EMF meter in Phantom Traveler). It makes me sad that at times it feels like the person Dean loves most in the world keeps him around just out of habit.

  I think the brother teasing is overdone sometimes but I don't think Dean is as fragile as the writers sometimes want  us to believe.  I don't think he is hurt by Sam's teasing.   I think as brothers they have had a lifetime of getting under each others skin.

 I know that Sam strangling Dean was a step too far for many fans (although killing the nurse was far worse for me) but Dean had just tried to kill Sam kind of by slow painful torture.  He was willing to let Sam die, alone and terrified in the panic room.  That was pretty brutal. We all heard Dean's speech to Bobby about not letting Sam turn into a monster and having him die human, but Sam alone and cuffed to a dirty cot heard "Dean" say something way worse.  I think at the hotel Sam was trying to hold it together until Dean called him a monster. The very words his hallucination (his greatest fear) said to him.  His brother thought he was something to hunt and kill.

[Airmid]

5 minutes ago, Res said:

It gutted me as well, mainly because I believe it is so true.

Sam, as a character, became unsalvageable IMO in S4 and never recovered for me. The willing murder of the nurse in addition to intentionally strangling his brother was way over the line for me, addict or no. S8 Sam completely eliminated him as anyone I could ever give a damn about. 

 

I really hated what they did with him in S8. Now, given what Sam's been through, if he had had some kind of mental break (especially if he was afraid of screwing up the world again given what he did the last time, which ended up raising Lucifer) I could understand that. I think that Dean would have, too. But just to walk away? Yeah, not so much. 

Personally, I think it would have worked better if Amelia was a hallucination/fantasy that Sam made up to cope. 

In Sacrifice, when Dean barges in to save him, Sam starts off good. He tells Dean that his greatest sin is letting him down. Then he immediately whines about Dean not trusting him and replacing him with other people. Gah. Makes it even sadder when Dean tells him that there's nothing he would put in front of Sam, while I kind of get the impression that at times Sam would trade Dean in for a nice salad. 

And then when Sam's collapsing outside and Dean says: "Sam? I got you, little brother. You're gonna to be just fine." just sinks the knife in more. 

Sam does do heroic things, and it's okay for a hero to be selfish as a flaw. They do need to have good qualities, and it's hard to find them in Sam at times. S4 did him no favors, and I think it was a mistake to have a character go that far off the rails without a true redemption plan plotted out. Or even if there was the possibility of redemption given what he did at the end. 

[Airmid]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

  I think the brother teasing is overdone sometimes but I don't think Dean is as fragile as the writers sometimes want  us to believe.  I don't think he is hurt by Sam's teasing.   I think as brothers they have had a lifetime of getting under each others skin.

 I know that Sam strangling Dean was a step too far for many fans (although killing the nurse was far worse for me) but Dean had just tried to kill Sam kind of by slow painful torture.  He was willing to let Sam die, alone and terrified in the panic room.  That was pretty brutal. We all heard Dean's speech to Bobby about not letting Sam turn into a monster and having him die human, but Sam alone and cuffed to a dirty cot heard "Dean" say something way worse.  I think at the hotel Sam was trying to hold it together until Dean called him a monster. The very words his hallucination (his greatest fear) said to him.  His brother thought he was something to hunt and kill.

2

 

That's a very good point to add. I was thinking about what Sam had seen while he was detoxing and he had had a "Dean" there saying cruel things to him. Then to have Dean appear at the hotel, saying some of the same things he had hallucinated - well I can definitely agree that would just fuel things even more. 

Sam didn't trust his brother enough to realize that Dean would never be able to kill him. And Dean had zero ideas how to help Sam free himself from what he had done, and was miserable and suffering as his brother screamed. It was a bad situation all the way around. I'm not sure what Dean could have done better, given what was going on with Sam and his powers which were dangerous to him and Bobby. 

In the end though, sadly, Sam put himself into that situation by choosing to go back to drinking blood. I can sympathize with his terror, but I can also sympathize with Dean just wanting his brother to not turn himself into a monster and pulling out all the stops in his quest to try to protect him. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Personally, I think it would have worked better if Amelia was a hallucination/fantasy that Sam made up to cope. 

True story... For a while there I actually thought that this was going to happen on the show. I kept waiting for it to happen. The weird brightly lit flashbacks, the fact that for a while there, there didn't seem to be anyone else but Sam interacting with Amelia, the totally corny, over-the-top, ridiculous situations (a picnic with a birthday cake? How did Amelia even get the picnic there? And Sam supposedly not having had a birthday cake before... It all seemed ridiculous and that can't really be real, right?)... it all seemed to me to point to: this is all in Sam's head right? I was completely disappointed and thinking "really?" when it turned out that Amelia really was real.

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Now, given what Sam's been through, if he had had some kind of mental break (especially if he was afraid of screwing up the world again given what he did the last time, which ended up raising Lucifer) I could understand that. I think that Dean would have, too. But just to walk away? Yeah, not so much. 

Or this. How hard would it have been for the writers to throw those of us who liked Sam - and the growth he'd had up through season 7 - a bone? A crumb even? But no, not a damn thing. Guess we couldn't have that though or that would take the focus / impact away from loyal, perfect Benny. And to add insult to injury, the writers turned that character assassination into a(n) (unfunny) recurring  "Sam hit a dog" punchline as just a special extra little "screw you" to Sam fans. Carver was the worst, in my opinion.

Edited August 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

 

That's a very good point to add. I was thinking about what Sam had seen while he was detoxing and he had had a "Dean" there saying cruel things to him. Then to have Dean appear at the hotel, saying some of the same things he had hallucinated - well I can definitely agree that would just fuel things even more. 

Sam didn't trust his brother enough to realize that Dean would never be able to kill him. And Dean had zero ideas how to help Sam free himself from what he had done, and was miserable and suffering as his brother screamed. It was a bad situation all the way around. I'm not sure what Dean could have done better, given what was going on with Sam and his powers which were dangerous to him and Bobby. 

In the end though, sadly, Sam put himself into that situation by choosing to go back to drinking blood. I can sympathize with his terror, but I can also sympathize with Dean just wanting his brother to not turn himself into a monster and pulling out all the stops in his quest to try to protect him. 

I agree Sam made those choices.  He knew all along what he was doing was wrong.  Sam was drunk on DB (I wish we had seen how he came to think that was okay though) a danger to himself and who knows who else.  Dean didn't really have a choice.  Bobby was right too there was no book on DB detox they had no idea what it would do to Sam or if he would survive it. I didn't think it was fair that Dean left Sam to rot all alone but then we wouldn't have gotten into Sam's headspace a little.   This was what John had told Dean years before.  His job was to save Sam...even if it cost Sam his life.

[devlin]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

  This was what John had told Dean years before.  His job was to save Sam...even if it cost Sam his life.

Even sam himself tried to make dean promise to kill him if he went dark side. So I am not sure what dean was supposed to do other than detox him. I did not see dean leaving sam to die a slow tortuous death but rather the painful decision to detox him by force because sam had become a danger to the public as proven later by the death of the nurse and the subsequent raising of lucifer

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, devlin said:

Even sam himself tried to make dean promise to kill him if he went dark side. So I am not sure what dean was supposed to do other than detox him. I did not see dean leaving sam to die a slow tortuous death but rather the painful decision to detox him by force because sam had become a danger to the public as proven later by the death of the nurse and the subsequent raising of lucifer

Yes but in Sam's mind at the moment that is what Dean was doing.  He was locked up in the panic room alone, terrified and in agonizing pain.  I'm not saying that Dean was wrong.  I'm only pointing out Sam's pov and why he was furious enough to beat Dean bloody and for a brief moment actually attempt to kill him.  Dean did what he had to do, although I still think leaving Sam to suffer alone for days was pretty brutal.  

For me Sam killing the nurse was the absolutely worst.  I don't think they have taken any other lead character as dark and almost irredeemable (for some, for others can never be redeemed) as they did Sam in that moment.  

Edited August 25, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

I know a big deal is made about the nurse but what's forgotten is Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture.  He was so desperate for a hit of demon blood, he ripped out a woman's throat.  That wasn't part of a plan or to attempt to save anyone that was just straight up a junkie needing a fix. 

That's what caused Dean to draw the line and lock Sam up.  He was clearly a danger to himself and others around him at that point.   Sam himself also told Dean to do whatever he needed to stop him if Sam went down that road. 

18 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

He was locked up in the panic room alone, terrified and in agonizing pain.

 Detoxing from demon blood and the side effects were completely unknown.  It's not like detoxing from Heroin or alcohol.  Being in the room with Sam had a high potential to put whoever was there in danger.   So Bobby and Dean can't be faulted for taking precautions to keep themselves safe.

Sam wasn't' alone.  Dean and Bobby were outside the door.  When Sam had a crisis they ran in immediately and when Sam had to be restrained we saw there was padding under the cuffs.  So Dean and Bobby just didn't leave him in there to rot.  (not saying you were saying that)

As for when Sam beat Dean, Dean was actually crying when Sam threw the first punch.  Dean tried to appeal to Sam.  He just wanted him to ditch Ruby.    Dean was beaten on the ground when Sam strangled him.  There is no excuse for that.  Sam had clearly won at that point.  It was a display of dominance. 

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I know a big deal is made about the nurse but what's forgotten is Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture.  He was so desperate for a hit of demon blood, he ripped out a woman's throat.  That wasn't part of a plan or to attempt to save anyone that was just straight up a junkie needing a fix. 

That's what caused Dean to draw the line and lock Sam up.  He was clearly a danger to himself and others around him at that point.   Sam himself also told Dean to do whatever he needed to stop him if Sam went down that road. 

 

 

While terrible and inexcusable, there's still a difference between the two deaths for me. During his fight with the demons in The Rapture, he was starved, in withdrawal, and half-crazed when his fix was right in front of him. Something that is evident due to the fact that he does it in public, in front of his brother and an angel. It could even be argued that he was so far gone at that point he forgot he wasn't alone and just took it. This demon had also been a threat to him and had seconds before been trying to kill him, instead of being restrained.

When he's with Ruby debating on what to do, he's fully in control. There's no crazy desperate edge to his actions here. He knows the nurse is an innocent and that she's the one screaming in the trunk, not the demon. He could simply exorcise the demon with his powers. He fully understands that he's going to be killing someone in cold blood to get revenge, which I don't think he was thinking about in The Rapture. There, I wouldn't be surprised if he felt like he was dying for a hit, while with the nurse, he was calm and collected and knew it was a different line to cross. In The Rapture, I don't think he even thought about the human when he did what he did, while in Lucifer Rising, he was very, very aware of it. 

What happened in The Rapture was horrific, but given what was happening, if things with him had stopped there, he could have been redeemed a lot better. Especially if he remembered what he did and felt guilt, using it as a way to not go down that path again. But instead, not only does he beat his brother who wants to save him, even if it's just saving his soul, and then listening to a woman scream for her life before he drains her - well that's leaping over the line and running to the next continent. 

I'm not hating on Sam here - just hating on what S4 did to him as a whole, and that in their quest to take him dark, the writers failed to see that they had gone too far.

[catrox14]

The biggest "problem"/writing choice with Sam's "addiction" SL is that it doesn't began to address the complexity of addiction and it's affect on the addict and the people in the addict's life.

First, Dean IS NOT a professional counselor, Sams' NA sponsor, or an objective 3rd party here. He is Sam's brother/father figure and is arguably a functional alcoholic himself, so IMO expecting him to know or think about Sam's drug fueled POV is ridiculous and the writers were wrong IMO to do that to Dean by having Bobby pile on. 

Dean has has gone above and beyond and sideways trying to help Sam. He and Bobby together being non professional therapists/drug counselors tried to do what they thought was best for Sam, themselves, and the world.  But even Dean had a breaking point here and DEAN IS ENTITLED to that breaking point. He's entitled to walk away from someone who nearly murdered him.

Yet, the show refuses to address this part of the addiction-esque SL they created in s4, in any real or helpful manner. Instead, IMO Sera Gamble, who likely already knew Kripke was taking a powder and leaving the show before s5 began, decided in her script for 4.21, to woobify Sam to the point of making Dean the bad guy for deigning to be opposed to and upset with Sam's behavior. And IMO, even if Kripke's name was on the finale with the Bobby v Dean princess scene, I can see that coming from Gamble's pen more than Kripke's.  So IMO she needed to put Dean in the questionable character role so Sam could get redemption.

That's why Bobby was "right" and Dean was "wrong".  Because Sera is a Sam girl and she had to make someone be the fall guy for Sam's own behavior.  Honestly, if Lucifer hadn't risen, how long would Dean have been dragged through the mud for even TRYING to establish boundaries of some kind with Sam.

And I am not insensitive to the addict's problems. But making those in his life WRONG or BAD for wanting to not deal with it, is just...well, an excuse to let Sam off the hook for his own shitty behavior. YMMV.

(I won't get into the details of my own experience with an alcoholic parent and a brother that used drugs other than to say I am not ignorant of how these things work)

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I know a big deal is made about the nurse but what's forgotten is Sam's actions at the end of The Rapture.  He was so desperate for a hit of demon blood, he ripped out a woman's throat.  That wasn't part of a plan or to attempt to save anyone that was just straight up a junkie needing a fix. 

That's what caused Dean to draw the line and lock Sam up.  He was clearly a danger to himself and others around him at that point.   Sam himself also told Dean to do whatever he needed to stop him if Sam went down that road. 

 Detoxing from demon blood and the side effects were completely unknown.  It's not like detoxing from Heroin or alcohol.  Being in the room with Sam had a high potential to put whoever was there in danger.   So Bobby and Dean can't be faulted for taking precautions to keep themselves safe.

Sam wasn't' alone.  Dean and Bobby were outside the door.  When Sam had a crisis they ran in immediately and when Sam had to be restrained we saw there was padding under the cuffs.  So Dean and Bobby just didn't leave him in there to rot.  (not saying you were saying that)

As for when Sam beat Dean, Dean was actually crying when Sam threw the first punch.  Dean tried to appeal to Sam.  He just wanted him to ditch Ruby.    Dean was beaten on the ground when Sam strangled him.  There is no excuse for that.  Sam had clearly won at that point.  It was a display of dominance. 

The demon that Sam drank from was going to die no matter what.  Castiel/Claire had already killed the other one's.  She was toast.  But I do agree the only thought in Sam's mind at that moment was to get his fix.  He wasn't trying to save anyone.  He did save Amelia by exorcising her demon but that was just to show Dean how Sam was getting his powers.  Again I wish we could have seen how Sam came to that decision.

The only time Dean and Bobby ran to check on Sam was when they thought he was dead.  All of Sam's other screams for help went unanswered.  We the audience got to see how much that was tearing Dean up and we got to see how far Dean went to ensure that Sam wouldn't have to be the one to kill Lilith.  Sam didn't see any of that.  As far as Sam was concerned Dean had abandoned him and in his hallucinations Dean disowned him and told him he was a monster.  I think at first when Sam begged Dean to go with him and Ruby he really thought he could prove to Dean he was right all along.  But at that point Dean had already agreed to the angels plans for him so Dean thought he  was right.

  Having said that I'm not excusing Sam for his behavior.  He was wrong.  He was proven to be wrong. He was so full of himself and his mission to get revenge, to be superior, to prove to Dean he was right that he went to the worst possible extremes imaginable.   Dean was trying to appeal to a drug addicted (at that point) psychopath.  And I very much agree Sam strangling Dean was a display of dominance.   My only point is that Sam's mindset at that moment was that Dean had disowned him, called him a monster and had just recently (in Sam's mind) tried to kill him.  That isn't an excuse just an explanation that imo was where Sam was coming from in his DB addicted brain.

I get that the lesson Sam learned from Ruby in Jus n Bello was sacrifice the virgin but I still think Kripke/Gamble took the killing of the nurse just way too far.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I get that the lesson Sam learned from Ruby in Jus n Bello was sacrifice the virgin but I still think Kripke took the killing of the nurse just way too far.

There are two things that have always bothered me about both those actions (well, aside from the obvious).  The first is that no one EVER mentioned the nurse. Not Sam, not Dean, not even Ruby, not even when he actually drained her.  In 10 years, we've heard nothing about her after she was screaming in the trunk.  Did Dean even know?  And no one ever challenged Sam about it, or showed any emotion (good or bad) about it.  It was a non-event as far as the narrative of the show is concerned.  The only reason it's remembered at all is because some of the fans can't forget.  That seems like whitewashing to the nth degree...that is, if you're going to go that dark, at least acknowledge that it happened so it could be included in the redemption.  Or maybe TPTB thought it could never be redeemed, and so they decided to pretend it never happened?

The second one is actually even more damning IMO.  In Jus in Bello, Lilith didn't WANT to kill everyone.  All she wanted was Sam and Dean (according to Ruby, with their intestines on a stick).  So if they'd turned themselves in to her, *everyone* would have been saved, Nancy and Henricksen included.  

If they were truly self-sacrificing idiots, one or the other would have at least *offered* to go out; and then the other could have said "we're trusting that a demon will keep her word?" or Ruby could say, "Too late.  She's really pissed now."  But the whole thing was brushed aside as if it had never been mentioned.  So instead they got the idea that sacrificing civilians to save their own lives was all right, because they were more important?

Edited August 25, 2018 by ahrtee
grammar.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

When he's with Ruby debating on what to do, he's fully in control. There's no crazy desperate edge to his actions here. He knows the nurse is an innocent and that she's the one screaming in the trunk, not the demon. He could simply exorcise the demon with his powers. He fully understands that he's going to be killing someone in cold blood to get revenge, which I don't think he was thinking about in The Rapture.

Though it still doesn't make it right in any way, Sam wasn't killing the nurse so he could get revenge on Lilith. Ruby's entire argument at that point - and why it tied into Sam's arrogance - was that killing Lilith was supposed to stop the apocalypse and save the world. And that was the argument that Ruby used to finally talk Sam into draining the nurse: was he going to wimp out now, or was he going to do the "difficult thing" and save the world? It was Sam finally getting talked into sacrificing "Nancy" this time: the one to save the many. Revenge had been Sam's motivation on why he started down the path with Ruby, and it seemed maybe to be part of the reason why he finally killed Lilith (though I think Sam was pretty far gone by then with the blood, so I'm also imaging blind rage), but in terms of Sam's reasoning (such as it was) concerning the nurse, revenge wasn't much of a factor, in my opinion.

34 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

In Jus in Bello, Lilith didn't WANT to kill everyone.  All she wanted was Sam and Dean (according to Ruby, with their intestines on a stick).  So if they'd turned themselves in to her, *everyone* would have been saved, Nancy and Henricksen included.  

If they were truly self-sacrificing idiots, one or the other would have at least *offered* to go out; and then the other could have said "we're trusting that a demon will keep her word?" or Ruby could say, "Too late.  She's really pissed now."  But the whole thing was brushed aside as if it had never been mentioned.  So instead they got the idea that sacrificing civilians to save their own lives was all right, because they were more important?

Looking a it that way, it does look like the set up made Sam and Dean look kind of arrogant. But I think the implication was supposed to be that it wasn't just saving the civilians inside. The "carrot" that Ruby dangled was that the ritual with Nancy the virgin would kill any demons within a mile area. Through her conversation - since she started talking about the Colt - I thought she was trying to dangle maybe Lilith, too if she was within a mile area. But at the very least, doing the ritual would supposedly save all of the possessed people whose bodies were alive outside. This was why actually Nancy agreed to do it. She wanted to save all of the townspeople outside. So I guess the ritual was supposed to be a guarantee of that, whereas if Sam and Dean gave themselves up there was no guarantee that anyone would be spared, and likely the townspeople outside would be toast or doomed to be demon meatsuits.

[Airmid]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Though it still doesn't make it right in any way, Sam wasn't killing the nurse so he could get revenge on Lilith. Ruby's entire argument at that point - and why it tied into Sam's arrogance - was that killing Lilith was supposed to stop the apocalypse and save the world. And that was the argument that Ruby used to finally talk Sam into draining the nurse: was he going to wimp out now, or was he going to do the "difficult thing" and save the world? It was Sam finally getting talked into sacrificing "Nancy" this time: the one to save the many. Revenge had been Sam's motivation on why he started down the path with Ruby, and it seemed maybe to be part of the reason why he finally killed Lilith (though I think Sam was pretty far gone by then with the blood, so I'm also imaging blind rage), but in terms of Sam's reasoning (such as it was) concerning the nurse, revenge wasn't much of a factor, in my opinion.

 

 

Never meant to imply that The Rapture one was good - only that given the circumstances, the character had a better chance to rebound from it. 

The problem with the Nancy argument is that Nancy offered herself to be sacrificed in Jus In Bello. When Ruby offered the solution and Nancy realized that she could fulfill the troubling part, she was willing to give up her life to save everyone. It was the brothers that stopped her, hoping to have a better plan where everybody walked out. And to be fair to them, they had zero clues that Lilith was going to show up and kill everybody still alive, and their plan was actually clever and solid. While Ruby liked to argue that it was their fault, even if she wasn't in Lilith's back pocket, there's no way a massive demon killing wouldn't set off some omens and attract Lilith or someone else to finish off the survivors anyways. 

The nurse did not volunteer. She was not given the option. While the incident in The Rapture was absolutely deplorable, at least a case could be made that that demon was going to die in a few seconds anyway by someone there and Sam was wild and out of control (close to what he was like under Famine, and in neither case was he trying to put himself in a situation where he would act like that). But while Sam was moping with Ruby debating what to do, he was in control and he had the power to get rid of the demon and save the innocent. Now if he had told the whole thing to the nurse and she at the end decided to give up her life to stop something so evil, and she was treated humanely, then it would be a whole different ball of wax. Sam would have learned from his previous behaviors and he would have truly accidentally raised Lucifer. While people could hold him responsible due to using dark powers, at least his character wouldn't have been in the toilet. 

I always thought Sam tried to rationalize that it wasn't about revenge in the end. That it was about protecting Dean due to him believing that Dean wasn't strong enough to help. That Sam felt that he and only he could stop Lilith and Lucifer. Ruby, and later Lilith, both played to his pride. But I also don't ever think it stopped being revenge for Sam in the end. Sure, he used all kinds of things to justify it, from believing just being a monster doesn't make you evil, to the misguided idea that if he does this then maybe he and Dean could stop hunting some day, to saving the world. He tried to believe that if he had lost his brother then maybe he should do something good with the powers that drove the final wedge between them (while not fully admitting to what he had done or that he was wrong). But in the end, to me, it was rage, pride, and revenge that got him to that place, IMO. 

As a side note - I was also disturbed by the draining of demons in S5 for Sam to be 'strong enough' to take on Luci. Only Dean looked as disturbed as I was, as these were still innocents and I doubt the humans in there knew what was happening. It's made even worse when one factors in the whole true vessel thing, and that we never heard things about Michael running around draining the life essence out of living creatures to be able to cope in his vessel. It just seemed gratuitous and not necessary, although it could help to explain why Sam recklessly said yes, I guess. Still not worth it. 

[AwesomO4000]

16 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The nurse did not volunteer. She was not given the option.

I entirely agree. I was more broadly comparing the two situations in a Machiavellian, sacrifice one to save the many sort of way, rather then trying to say the two were the same in any real sense.

19 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Now if he had told the whole thing to the nurse and she at the end decided to give up her life to stop something so evil, and she was treated humanely, then it would be a whole different ball of wax. Sam would have learned from his previous behaviors and he would have truly accidentally raised Lucifer. While people could hold him responsible due to using dark powers, at least his character wouldn't have been in the toilet. 

Ehn, the writers wanted Sam's character in the toilet, in my opinion. To me, that was apparent when they "yada yada yada"d over something as important as why Sam decided to drink demon blood in the first place... and gave the most vague "what the hell does that mean?"  explanation for why he started up again. Either the writers didn't want to take the time to explain it, because only the result was the important thing, or they weren't really interested in making Sam's character sympathetic or have us understand his motivation to begin with. Which the lnot caring about showing Sam as sympathetic I also think was illustrated by all of the stuff from "Sex and Violence." None of that stuff Sam said in that episode was necessary except to make Sam unsympathetic and highlight Dean as the most suffering brother who ever suffered... as if we really needed Dean to suffer any more.

I am with you in not enjoying season 4. For me it was an exercise in tearing down Sam while just piling on the suffering for Dean without wanting to actually deal with it beyond "poor Dean. He suffers so much and has the worst brother ever." The whole issue about Sam being in the situation he was in to make those awful decisions to begin with being partially because Dean didn't consider what would happen to Sam after he got dragged to hell - fueled along exponentially by what Gabriel did to Sam - wasn't even addressed. I'm not saying that Sam's bad decisions weren't his own, because they most obviously were, but in my opinion, it would've made sense if part of Sam's feelings towards Dean were suppressed resentment for Dean having put him in that position in the first place. Dean was allowed to show it with John and it didn't make Dean any less sympathetic. Sam having resentment or maybe even questioning Dean's motivations for making the deal to begin with, but feeling guilty about it and wanting to not feel guilty (along with the failure he already felt) would've fueled better into "I should do this instead of Dean" in my opinion, than "Dean got damaged and is now weak, so I have to do it"  ... especially considering that second one contradicted Sam's earlier position and was kind of stupid anyway, because as Sam had pointed out before: who wouldn't break after 30 years of torture? (The whole Alastair / John thing was stupid in my opinion. Either Alastair was lying - my position, especially since John was obviously running around in hell, not tied to a rack - or the show just didn't consider reality with that one, because no way would John not have been a demon by that time. My opinion there.) But the "you're weak while I'm stronger" thing was better brother "conflict" in their opinion, so they went with it even though it would damage Sam's character which was apparently of less concern to them than having that conflict. My opinion on that one.

57 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I always thought Sam tried to rationalize that it wasn't about revenge in the end. That it was about protecting Dean due to him believing that Dean wasn't strong enough to help. That Sam felt that he and only he could stop Lilith and Lucifer. Ruby, and later Lilith, both played to his pride. But I also don't ever think it stopped being revenge for Sam in the end. Sure, he used all kinds of things to justify it, from believing just being a monster doesn't make you evil, to the misguided idea that if he does this then maybe he and Dean could stop hunting some day, to saving the world. He tried to believe that if he had lost his brother then maybe he should do something good with the powers that drove the final wedge between them (while not fully admitting to what he had done or that he was wrong). But in the end, to me, it was rage, pride, and revenge that got him to that place, IMO.

I agree with much of this, except for the revenge part. I really think that by that time, it was more about Sam wanting desperately to prove that he could use that dark part of himself and turn it into something good and that he wasn't the screw up brother who just caused his family problems. And Ruby fed into Sam wanting to be just that and got Sam to believe that he could do that... and his pride let him believe that it was true, and that he could harness and control the darkness and rage inside him for good.

I think that if it was mostly revenge - at the time of the nurse anyway - Sam likely would have called it off, because he was having major doubts. But hearing the altered phone message talking about how he was a monster made Sam all the more want to prove to Dean and himself and everyone that he was more than that monster, and if he was that monster that he could at least save the world first. (It also let Sam know that afterwards Dean would probably now "take him out," so he wouldn't have to deal with causing more damage.) The part later with Lilith, I agree that was rage and revenge raising it's ugly head, but I don't think that revenge was the main part in Sam's decision to go through with the nurse...

At least I hope not, because then I would be annoyed that the message here was Sam needing revenge was bad and his downfall and he starts an apocalypse while when Dean does it 3 seasons later, it's not a problem and he saves the world. I think the show already has enough instances of unbalanced consequences without adding that one to the list.

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

As a side note - I was also disturbed by the draining of demons in S5 for Sam to be 'strong enough' to take on Luci. Only Dean looked as disturbed as I was, as these were still innocents and I doubt the humans in there knew what was happening. It's made even worse when one factors in the whole true vessel thing, and that we never heard things about Michael running around draining the life essence out of living creatures to be able to cope in his vessel. It just seemed gratuitous and not necessary, although it could help to explain why Sam recklessly said yes, I guess. Still not worth it.

I have also always thought it was there so they could explain why Sam recklessly said "yes."

My headcanon to make it less awful is that Castiel used his powers to find demons that had already killed their meatsuits so that the innocents would already have been dead no matter what (and were just suffering as captives of the demons)... There's no mention that that is what happened, but there's nothing to say that that's not how it went down either. Dean could still be disturbed by the whole thing for multiple reasons, but at least it wouldn't be as bad.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

begin with being partially because Dean didn't consider what would happen to Sam after he got dragged to hell

I can't imagine that Dean ever considered once that Sam (who was always a good kid in that he didn't seem to be a trouble maker in general, he did well in school, he didn't really drink or didn't drink to get drunk) would voluntarily work with demons when they had tormented the Winchesters (to this point in the story) much less start sucking demon blood. Sam's history didn't suggest he would go down that path, so why would Dean have considered that to be a minute possibility, much less a likelihood? 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I can't imagine that Dean ever considered once that Sam (who was always a good kid in that he didn't seem to be a trouble maker in general, he did well in school, he didn't really drink or didn't drink to get drunk) would voluntarily work with demons when they had tormented the Winchesters (to this point in the story) much less start sucking demon blood. Sam's history didn't suggest he would go down that path, so why would Dean have considered that to be a minute possibility, much less a likelihood? 

Not that exact thing no, but Sam going dark - in my opinion - not that far fetched at all based on what Dean knew, because Sam did have dark powers in him which Dean had previously been concerned about. And because as far as Dean knew when he made the deal, the YED was still around and wanting Sam for some dark purpose... which Dean was bringing Sam back to that to face alone if they couldn't stop the YED before Dean died. Even if Dean didn't consider Sam going dark, which I'm not so sure about, he still didn't consider how devastated Sam would become... At the very least Dean should have considered the revenge angle, because Sam had already been on a revenge stint before. How was Dean being killed due to YED influence not going to make that come up again? And not even considering the revenge thing - which was a pretty big thing, in my opinion - Dean previously had concerns due to the fact that John had warned him about Sam and Dean had been worried that he would have to kill Sam. If Dean didn't have some misgivings about Sam going dark, it would seem to me he wouldn't have had any concerns at all over what John told him.

So in my opinion, Dean didn't much consider what would happen with Sam after he got dragged to hell, and based on everything he knew to that point: that Sam might still end up going for revenge, that the YED was still out there and gunning for Sam, and that he, himself, had previously been concerned about Sam going dark based on his reaction to John's warning, in my opinion Dean would be very naive if he expected that he would make that deal and Sam would've just been hunky-dory with no potential for things to go horribly wrong, including the potential that at the very least, Sam might end up going down a very dark, John adjacent path.

Edited August 25, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

33 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So in my opinion, Dean didn't much consider what would happen with Sam after he got dragged to hell, and based on everything he knew to that point: that Sam might still end up going for revenge, that the YED was still out there and gunning for Sam, and that he, himself, had previously been concerned about Sam going dark based on his reaction to John's warning, in my opinion Dean would be very naive if he expected that he would make that deal and Sam would've just been hunky-dory with no potential for things to go horribly wrong, including the potential that at the very least, Sam might end up going down a very dark, John adjacent path.

I'm sorry; please correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here. It sounds like you're putting the blame ( or part of it ) for Sam's dark actions in season 4 at Dean's feet because he should have known what would happen once he was burning in hell and not at his brothers side. Not being snarky at all but is that what your overall point is?

[devlin]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I can't imagine that Dean ever considered once that Sam (who was always a good kid in that he didn't seem to be a trouble maker in general, he did well in school, he didn't really drink or didn't drink to get drunk) would voluntarily work with demons when they had tormented the Winchesters (to this point in the story) much less start sucking demon blood. Sam's history didn't suggest he would go down that path, so why would Dean have considered that to be a minute possibility, much less a likelihood? 

And I don’t think that for one moment that dean thought that sam would betray his memory by hooking up with the demon who had been crowing about how delighted she was by dean’s imminent torture and that it was a shame that she was not going to be there to see it. Let alone start guzzling the stuff that had always apparently made him feel like a freak 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, devlin said:

And I don’t think that for one moment that dean thought that sam would betray his memory by hooking up with the demon who had been crowing about how delighted she was by dean’s imminent torture and that it was a shame that she was not going to be there to see it. Let alone start guzzling the stuff that had always apparently made him feel like a freak 

Exactly!

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I am with you in not enjoying season 4. For me it was an exercise in tearing down Sam while just piling on the suffering for Dean without wanting to actually deal with it beyond "poor Dean. He suffers so much and has the worst brother ever." The whole issue about Sam being in the situation he was in to make those awful decisions to begin with being partially because Dean didn't consider what would happen to Sam after he got dragged to hell - fueled along exponentially by what Gabriel did to Sam - wasn't even addressed. I'm not saying that Sam's bad decisions weren't his own, because they most obviously were, but in my opinion, it would've made sense if part of Sam's feelings towards Dean were suppressed resentment for Dean having put him in that position in the first place. Dean was allowed to show it with John and it didn't make Dean any less sympathetic. Sam having resentment or maybe even questioning Dean's motivations for making the deal to begin with, but feeling guilty about it and wanting to not feel guilty (along with the failure he already felt) would've fueled better into "I should do this instead of Dean" in my opinion, than "Dean got damaged and is now weak, so I have to do it"  ... especially considering that second one contradicted Sam's earlier position and was kind of stupid anyway, because as Sam had pointed out before: who wouldn't break after 30 years of torture? (The whole Alastair / John thing was stupid in my opinion. Either Alastair was lying - my position, especially since John was obviously running around in hell, not tied to a rack - or the show just didn't consider reality with that one, because no way would John not have been a demon by that time. My opinion there.) But the "you're weak while I'm stronger" thing was better brother "conflict" in their opinion, so they went with it even though it would damage Sam's character which was apparently of less concern to them than having that conflict. My opinion on that one.

 

6

I wish the writers wouldn't go with heavy themes, like extensive torture and those who are forced torture if they can't address them properly. Or have Dean go through what he did and just act like it was enough to bring up his pain here and there. There's just no way that someone who went through what he did would be functional at all unless he had some help (more than likely angelic in his case) and especially not right out of the box. 

And that, of course, makes Sam look like even more of a d-bag in the long run when he's sneaking around with Ruby and lying through his teeth while his brother is having nightmares and trying not to drink himself into a coma. The whole thing sucked for both - Dean suffered an unreasonable amount and Sam, especially in retrospect, looked like even more of a dick. 

Which actually just kind of pisses me off more about S6 when Dean meets the suck clan and finds out that Sambot has told all their living (or once again living) relatives about his hell pain, and they use it against him. 

I don't personally believe that Dean was thinking when he made that deal. John had only been dead a few months really and Dean hadn't really coped with his father making his own deal or what his father told him (both about Sam, and his little confession about how Dean always took care of all of them and had to keep doing that). The one thing Dean protected and loved that was left was dead in his arms. He was devasted, grief-stricken and massively drunk. Honestly, in all his muddled thinking he probably had going on there, I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that since Sam was able to leave for college and forget him, that this would be okay. Not saying that he would think that sober, but I do think he saw himself as less important, and given that he was out of his mind, well, what happened isn't surprising.

I do think that once it started settling in that he thought about Sam, and how he struggled with his own guilt due to what John did, that it did dawn on him that Sam was going to suffer. By then it was way too late. I don't think Dean was capable of thinking the consequence of the deal through when he made it, and he shouldn't have been left alone in all honesty. Bobby should have known better. 

It also doesn't help that we as an audience got to see Dean in total breakdown mode and his lack of mental wellness when he did what he did. Sam, however, did not, and could not know just how bad off Dean was when he met the demon. And it wasn't like Dean was going to tell him something like: "Yeah I was weeping and had drunk two-fifths of whiskey in like a day, and I loved you so much that I didn't want to risk you being in hell instead of me." Because silent man pain is more important, I guess. Kind of a depressing thought that some things could have been softened, if not avoided, if Dean had been open about why he did what he did to help with Sam's guilt, especially seeing that Dean was carrying his own. 

Though I do find it interesting that Dean talks about how he should have been dead from the car crash (even in S4 to Tessa). Everybody seemed to forget how he was supposed to have died in S1 and it was fluke encounter with a chained reaper that saved him. Dean, dear, you should have been dead a few times over by the time you saw Tessa again. 

I think Alastair lied about a lot of things just to get under Dean's skin. While they talk about John, it almost seems that once they dragged him down, he was forgotten about. In the early seasons, how they worked it, it seemed like it was always meant to be Dean to break the first seal. Later on, that seemed to change and was completely undermined by the AU world having the end times without the brothers, undermining what they went through, and something I complained about in the bitterness thread.

 

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think that if it was mostly revenge - at the time of the nurse anyway - Sam likely would have called it off, because he was having major doubts. But hearing the altered phone message talking about how he was a monster made Sam all the more want to prove to Dean and himself and everyone that he was more than that monster, and if he was that monster that he could at least save the world first. (It also let Sam know that afterwards Dean would probably now "take him out," so he wouldn't have to deal with causing more damage.) The part later with Lilith, I agree that was rage and revenge raising it's ugly head, but I don't think that revenge was the main part in Sam's decision to go through with the nurse...

 

4

 

Personally, I still think it was very present for Sam at that point. It definitely became front and center when he was attacking Lilith. To me, Sam's someone who grew up with the idea of revenge as part of his daily life due to his dad. Losing Dean, thinking his brother was coming to kill him, to me, regardless of how he rationalized it, revenge was still thing due to him thinking he had nothing left. To me, Sam has many qualities that he shares with John, unfortunately. John, who instead of seeing his still very much alive and traumatized sons that needed him, instead dragged them around the country on his never-ending quest to kill the demon. It wouldn't surprise me if Sam had that same tendency - instead of stopping when there was still time, he kept pressing until all the bridges were burnt, so to speak. Though, sadly, he didn't know that in his case, Dean would still come for him. 

Having that kind of mindset doesn't make him a bad character or evil for that matter. The way it was handled was just terrible, however. 

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can't imagine that Dean ever considered once that Sam (who was always a good kid in that he didn't seem to be a trouble maker in general, he did well in school, he didn't really drink or didn't drink to get drunk) would voluntarily work with demons when they had tormented the Winchesters (to this point in the story) much less start sucking demon blood. Sam's history didn't suggest he would go down that path, so why would Dean have considered that to be a minute possibility, much less a likelihood? 

While I doubt Dean could have foretold that Sam was going team up with Ruby and sleep with her while sucking her blood, there were a lot of warning signs here. Like how Sam was willing to work with her at all. Or the massive warning he got from John. Or learning about how Sam got his powers. Sam's powers in general. Sam's desperate behavior going so far as to contemplate making them both monsters. Finding out that Sam was out shooting CRDs. Sam taking bigger and bigger risks. 

Sam going off the rails was broadcasted loudly throughout the season. Even if Sam never told Dean what Gabriel had done to him fully, there was still a lot of evidence that Sam needed something to happen here that he just didn't get before Dean was ripped apart. 

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, Airmid said:

While I doubt Dean could have foretold that Sam was going team up with Ruby and sleep with her while sucking her blood, there were a lot of warning signs here. Like how Sam was willing to work with her at all. Or the massive warning he got from John. Or learning about how Sam got his powers.

But Ruby wasn't in play in s2 when Dean made the deal, so I don't see how that's relevant.  Ruby didn't appear until after Dean made the deal.  The only warning he got from John was Save Sam or Kill Him.  He didn't know how Sam got his powers back in s2, that I recall. Maybe I'm forgetting something. 

The point if I understood @AwesomO4000 correctly was that Dean didn't think about what would happen to Sam before he made the deal. Nothing was going to change that Dean couldn't have known in s2 what he learned in s4. 

Edited August 25, 2018 by catrox14

[Airmid]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But Ruby wasn't in play in s2 when Dean made the deal, so I don't see how that's relevant.  Ruby didn't appear until after Dean made the deal.  The only warning he got from John was Save Sam or Kill Him.  He didn't know how Sam got his powers back in s2, that I recall. Maybe I'm forgetting something. 

Ah see, I thought you meant in general over the course of his deal.

To be honest, I personally think that what Dean was thinking was a garbled mess when he went out and made that deal. I mean, Bobby at least tries to get Dean to talk and at that point, before the deal, Dean's at the breaking point of letting the whole world end. Now, whether or not he truly meant it or was just a hot mess, is another story. 

Then we see him give his soliloquy to the ceiling and Sam's body, talking about how he let Sam down and that's all he does.

And the next minute he's out waiting for a CRD. 

So, no, I don't think Dean thought about at all how Sam was a good boy who wasn't going to get in trouble. I don't think Dean was capable of evaluating the far-reaching consequences of his deal, unlike John. By the time Dean had sobered up and understood a bit better just how it was affecting Sam, it was too late by that point to change the deal portion. And sadly, little was done over the course of S3 to really help Sam cope when it came due. Instead, Sam held onto the hope that it could be undone, which turned out to be false, and the one person who could have told him anything decided to torture him in a time loop instead. 

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Ah see, I thought you meant in general over the course of his deal.

I wasn't talking about the course of the deal. I was responding to what I thought @AwesomO4000 was talking about.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

Ah see, I thought you meant in general over the course of his deal.

To be honest, I personally think that what Dean was thinking was a garbled mess when he went out and made that deal. I mean, Bobby at least tries to get Dean to talk and at that point, before the deal, Dean's at the breaking point of letting the whole world end. Now, whether or not he truly meant it or was just a hot mess, is another story. 

Then we see him give his soliloquy to the ceiling and Sam's body, talking about how he let Sam down and that's all he does.

And the next minute he's out waiting for a CRD. 

So, no, I don't think Dean thought about at all how Sam was a good boy who wasn't going to get in trouble. I don't think Dean was capable of evaluating the far-reaching consequences of his deal, unlike John. By the time Dean had sobered up and understood a bit better just how it was affecting Sam, it was too late by that point to change the deal portion. And sadly, little was done over the course of S3 to really help Sam cope when it came due. Instead, Sam held onto the hope that it could be undone, which turned out to be false, and the one person who could have told him anything decided to torture him in a time loop instead. 

I'd always assumed Dean wasn't in his right mind when he made the deal.  Think of the timeline--Sam disappeared at night.  Dean spent that night trying frantically to find him and driving (somewhere) to meet Bobby.   They got a call from Ash and then drove to Nebraska to the Roadhouse where Dean had the vision migraine.  From there, they drove all the way *back* to SD to Cold Oak, only to get there in time (also at night) to see Sam die.  I'm going to assume that Dean and Bobby didn't stop anywhere for a good night's sleep, but (more likely) alternated driving and dozing in the car.  IIRC, Sam spent two nights?  Three?  in Cold Oak (the first night when he was unconscious, since he woke in daylight; the second night when Azazel appeared to  him, and the third night when he had the fight.) I doubt if Dean had slept more than a few hours in those three days, plus all the driving/stressing and the vision migraine; and probably hadn't eaten much either; and he then spent the whole next day at Sam's bedside (it was already night again when he made the deal).  I don't think his red eyes were entirely from tears, and I'm pretty damn sure he wasn't thinking clearly.

OTOH, there's another thing to consider before anyone calls Dean selfish or cruel for not considering Sam's feelings before making the deal.  Does anyone remember that Sam tried to trade himself for Dean?  He even tried to open a Hellgate.  The only reason he didn't succeed and wind up in hell himself was that no one would make a deal with him.  So how do you think Dean would have felt if he found out that Sam had negated his sacrifice and wound up, not only dead but in hell, because of him?  Dean was already reeling over his dad's sacrifice and feeling unworthy.  Imagine what he would do if Sam were dead in his place?

Self-sacrifice, whether for guilt, selfish reasons or just because one couldn't live without the other is SOP for the Winchesters.  You can't blame one without also blaming the others.  

[DeeDee79]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Self-sacrifice, whether for guilt, selfish reasons or just because one couldn't live without the other is SOP for the Winchesters.  You can't blame one without also blaming the others.  

Excellent point.

[Airmid]

@ahrtee - I've never understood when people talked about how selfish Dean was when he made that deal. I agree, he was totally out of his mind, especially as you point out that he hadn't slept either and had all that other stress before arriving just seconds too late. It makes no sense to me, and it's up there with fans who demand that Sam make amends for what his body did while soulless. Well, seeing that Sam never consented to his body running around with the part that makes it really Sam - i.e. his soul - and that he was being tortured in hell at the time kind, of negates that whole view. Same with Dean. I don't think he was being selfish at all making that deal and was being driven by a lot of things that weren't great for his mental health. 

I do understand Sam's point of view on trying to trade himself for Dean. Also, Sam's had a year. It's been at the forefront of his mind that entire time - he's the one who's supposed to be dead not Dean. What he wanted was for Dean to go back on the deal and let him go but that wasn't going to happen. We don't know where Sam was supposed to go at death, and it could very well be that at death he would have gone to heaven at this point unless the demons waylaid his soul and dragged him down instead. Sam has to live not only with the death of his loved one, but knowing that Dean is being tortured eternally. No matter how heartbroken Dean would be if the deal was revoked, Sam had to live free and clear knowing the bloody cost.

Which is the same thing John did to Dean. And if Dean was being rational, I don't think he would ever have put his brother through that. At least I hope not at that point. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I think Dean said it all in Bobby's junkyard after the deal. "At least then my life could mean something." 

He was indoctrinated with the idea that he has to protect Sam at all costs. He sat at Sam's deathbed and admitted he failed. He was never not going to follow John's example. Never. 

Edited August 26, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ahrtee]

50 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I do understand Sam's point of view on trying to trade himself for Dean. Also, Sam's had a year. It's been at the forefront of his mind that entire time - he's the one who's supposed to be dead not Dean. What he wanted was for Dean to go back on the deal and let him go but that wasn't going to happen. We don't know where Sam was supposed to go at death, and it could very well be that at death he would have gone to heaven at this point unless the demons waylaid his soul and dragged him down instead. Sam has to live not only with the death of his loved one, but knowing that Dean is being tortured eternally. No matter how heartbroken Dean would be if the deal was revoked, Sam had to live free and clear knowing the bloody cost.

Oh, I understand (and do sympathize) with Sam's POV here, and actually think it was reasonable (based on how the characters were written) to expect him to try to trade himself.  I was just trying to point out that if people considered Dean selfish for not considering Sam's reaction, then Sam ignoring Dean's wishes (because, after all, didn't Dean tell him to let him go, keep fighting, etc.? ) could be considered just as selfish.  (Come to think of it:  if Sam *had* succeeded in trading himself for Dean, would that have been "taking away his agency" as Dean supposedly did to Sam with the Trials?  Because we know for an absolute fact that Dean would *never* have agreed to it!) :)

[Katy M]

I'm less concerned about Dean's deal being selfish, as I am about it being monumentally stupid.  A life is worth a penny.  A soul is worth a million dollars. What kind of moron would trade a million dollars for a penny?  Yes, I understand, grief and all that.  But, Sam was then trying to trade a million dollars for a million dollars which makes more sense.  Plus, it was his fault that Dean was in Hell in the first place, so he was trying to make it right.  But, still stupid, because demons, not so good of an idea to deal with them at all.