S04.E05: XXXIII

[Ravenya003]

23 hours ago, Kathemy said:

No, no. This is intersectionality-in-action. The basic tenet is that different forms of injustice can't be compared with each other. In other words it's A-OK that Eleanor is rich, white and owns slaves because "I'M A WOMAN WOE IS ME!!!"

I'm rich? So what, I'm black. I'm rich and white? So what, I'm a woman. I'm a rich white man? So what, I'm gay. I'm a rich white straight man? So what, I have ADHD. 

It's the Swiss army knife of claiming victimhood.

I ... don't think we're disagreeing here.

On a Watsonian level (from within the story itself) Eleanor is upset that a man she trusted was keeping a very big secret from her. But from a Doylist point-of-view (that is, from the audience perspective) it doesn't sit right that a woman who legally owned another human being feels she has the right to be upset about things he did outside her knowledge - or that the writers could ask us to sympathise with her over this.

If that was in fact their intention (there's every chance Madi will call Eleanor out in the next episode), then it's a jarring change of pace since the show has never before asked us to see slavery as anything but 100% wrong up till this point. Even Rackham putting the slaves to work on repairing the fort was framed as a really shitty thing for him to do, and part of the way they tried to make Vane more likeable in season two was by making him staunchly anti-slavery. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Ravenya003

[Neurochick]

14 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

On a Watsonian level (from within the story itself) Eleanor is upset that a man she trusted was keeping a very big secret from her. But from a Doylist point-of-view (that is, from the audience perspective) it doesn't sit right that a woman who legally owned another human being feels she has the right to be upset about things he did outside her knowledge - or that the writers could ask us to sympathise with her over this.

I never got the impression that we, the audience were or are supposed to sympathize with Eleanor or any other character on this show.

[raven]

I thought Eleanor came off as hilariously clueless- not just her "me me me" reaction to Mr. Scott's story but her complete assumption that Rogers would go along with her plan.  I mean, she knows the guy, married him and thought he would just pack up and go??  After everything he's done to take control of Nassau?  I don't think we are meant to sympathize with her about anything, actually.  Like most everyone else, she chose a side and will have to deal with whatever consequences.

I was hoping for a master plan between Flint/Silver WRT to the Eleanor team up but I guess not.   It bothers me a bit to see some of this OOC stuff - Flint going right along with Eleanor's plan, Billy being so easily beaten - I guess he was surprised, but he's pretty big and been physically tough.   Silver said to bring him to the Underhill estate, is there more retribution to be had for him there?

Rackham's "you bunch of dummies, the Spanish are coming" reaction to everyone was perfect.

[Garnett7]

I found the reaction re: Mr. Scott completely in tune with Eleanor "The World Revolves Around Me" Guthrie and not a misfire by the writers. She's always been a big ball of entitled hypocrisy. Although I do think the writers are tone deaf on how the audience sees her character vs. how they want her seen. The writers, the actors, interviews, other characters -- they all try to proclaim her this strong, independent woman but she has never existed without a man to prop on. She relied on her father's name, on Mr. Scott, on Flint and their alliance, on Vane's name in season 2. When she lands in a situation she can't handle, a man always has to come rescue her -- Vane with Lowe, Vane in overthrowing Teach, Rogers  to save her from a noose and give her back a powerful position in Nassau. I also don't find sleeping with someone to get them to do what you want an admirable quality in anyone. She falls woefully short when you compare her to the other women on the show. 

Mr. Scott was definitely her slave. He said himself in season 1 that he was "property of the Guthrie family", which included her. She ran everything in Nassau for years, where he was with her. He belonged to her as much as he did to Richard. She gave the lame "I never thought of you that way" defense. Like that somehow makes it ok that she owned him nonetheless. Also in season 1, he asked her to "let him go" (free him, in other words) so he could accept the spot on Hornigold's crew that Hornigold offered him.

[taanja]

On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 3:40 AM, Ravenya003 said:

On a Watsonian level (from within the story itself) Eleanor is upset that a man she trusted was keeping a very big secret from her. 

 

I watched the scene again last night and this is what I saw. It also looked ( as she paused at the door ) like she realized that Rogers falls into the category of "the men who have used her for their own gain."

I realize on THIS site Eleanor isn't particularly liked. But I find her to be a sympathetic character. Not everyone here is the "entire audience" -- yes some of us do like and root for Miss Guthrie. I believe when it was mentioned that Mr. Scott was the property of the Guthrie family -- that Eleanor couldn't free him because she didn't herself own him.

[Slovenly Muse]

Wow. I can absolutely see why the creators wanted to make this the last season. Everything is in place, and there's no sense in drawing it out anymore. In both the pirates AND the British Navy, you have people who work together even though they have different motivations. Typically, either self-interest/greed (money, safety - Billy, Max, Eleanor, maybe Jack?) or personal/emotional (ideals, vendettas - Madi, Flint, Rogers). And this gives them a common purpose TO A POINT. But now that ALL the money and ALL the power is on the table, and only one might be attainable, everyone has hit that point. It is glorious to see alliances unravelling, common interests dissolving, relationships restructured, and everyone coming to terms with which one they're willing to kill their "brothers" to attain: money or power. The life-changing fortune of the Urca treasure, or the politically-shattering conquest of Nassau. Watching everyone figure out for the first time where they REALLY stand, and who might be their best ally in achieving that end, is just damn brilliant.

As for Eleanor, I have a different take on her. I see her as quite sympathetic, and also rather despicable. She wants to be in control, and is constantly manoeuvring herself into a position of pulling the strings behind the scenes. She likes to be the "power behind the throne" and has a hunger to control others. So finding out that the people SHE was trying to control and manipulate (Vane, her father, Rogers.... Mr. Scott?) were trying to control and manipulate her right back makes her feel frustrated and powerless (and more determined to control THEM), because maybe she doesn't understand that that's what life IS. No one is ever really on top, or really in control. Everyone uses each other, especially when money and power are involved. So she's caught in a cycle she can't win. Her attitude toward slavery is part of that. Sure, Mr. Scott was her slave, but he was also her "friend," and she controlled him not because she OWNED him, but because she used their emotional connection to manipulate him, convince him to help her. Or at least that's what she thought. Finding out she was wrong would of course come as a blow (even though it's blatantly obvious that she was wrong to keep him as a slave if it was within her power to let him go, and duh, he would betray her for his family in a second, and would be right to). And of course she's trying to control Rogers too. She's been the one REALLY calling the shots since before they arrived. But she's made a critical error here. She tipped her hand, and revealed to him that she was in control, that she was expecting him to stand aside and let her stand up and take charge, so she could attack Nassau with a scalpel and carefully extract everything she wanted. But she wounded his pride, and because of his need to be in control, he is heading her way with a wrecking ball, and this is going to be REALLY FUN YOU GUYS!

[WatchrTina]

On 2/26/2017 at 6:57 PM, ribboninthesky1 said:

This show really wants viewers to be sympathetic towards Eleanor, yet I've never been.

Yeah, me neither.  The same goes for Max.  And that really surprises me because usually I'm all about the women who put the grrrr in girl-power.  I'm a big fan of Anne (now that she's back to being a bad-ass and not moping around in a brothel murdering whores for no good reason) but I'm afraid we've seen the last of her bad-assery.

[TobinAlbers]

Poor Billy. I like that despite the problems Billy's crap caused and his threat to Flint and Madi (which really, they've all threatened each other with death at one time or another so puh-leeze) Silver really did have a hard time processing and hearing from Madi that he and Billy would have to part ways. And I loved that she acknowledged how hard it was for him and for her to say it but I appreciated that she was being practical about the situation.

And then the guy standing with Billy at the end, the look on his face was so sad. And to try to use a damned lie about his betraying them to sully his reputation and hide his true motivation like that even though everyone knew it was bullshit? Low blow, Silver.  At least the poor guy stood his ground and was loyal to Billy in the end even though it was futile.

It was kind of funny that they take care of the Billy problem and then Rackham comes back to take his place as questioning the cache exchange.

The look of 'Oh Shit' on Max's face when she saw the Spanish were coming was great.

I can rationalize Billy ultimately becoming so fearful of Silver because he has a breakdown from all the shit and mindgames not only from Flint but from the whole situation of this neverending fighting and battling and his mind just finally had enough. He's been played out the one person that came closest to being his friend turned on him in such brutal fashion after he built him up.  And then sends him to the Underhill Estate? Brutal betrayal.