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kariyaki

S04.E05: XXXIII

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Well Billy drove a wedge alright, between himself and Silver. So many choices made in this episode, but they'll be all for naught with the Spanish now involved in this war. At this point, there is absolutely no way the pirates/Maroons will win this. 

That said, I just can't with Eleanor. I get her frustration at feeling like all the men in her life were in some way manipulating her will behind her back, but Mr. Scott was doing what he had to do to keep his FAMILY (and others) safe and furthermore to free them from a life of slavery. But of course, being who she is, a white woman, she cannot see this, but can only see how it undermines what she thought was success achieved by her own skills as a business woman and leader. :/

I still can't believe she actually believed her love and the cash to pay off his debt would be enough to get Rogers to sail away and give up Nassau. Same with Flint. They both completely underestimated him. And speaking of Rogers, this could all backfire on him as well  in that Eleanor could end up injured or dead if the Spanish invades the island. He's assuming she'll be safe in the Fort when they arrive, but what if she's not? It could spell disaster for him.

Silver's question to Madi was interesting. I definitely think he's contemplating an exit strategy. 

I wonder if Kofi's delay in retrieving the treasure from Maroon Island means anything? Could the queen have stopped him after learning of the mess that's ensued on Nassau? Did they run into trouble? 

Rackham is back, but where the hell is Anne? I think she's still alive. If she wasn't he'd be inconsolable. Perhaps she's still on the ship recovering? 

Another great episode.

Edited by Enero
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1 hour ago, Enero said:

I get her frustration at feeling like all the men in her life were in some way manipulating her will behind her back, but Mr. Scott was doing what he had to do to keep his FAMILY (and others) safe and furthermore to free them from a life of slavery. But of course, being who she is, a white woman, she cannot see this, but can only see how it undermines what she thought was success achieved by her own skills as a business woman and leader. :/

I still can't believe she actually believed her love and the cash to pay off his debt would be enough to get Rogers to sail away and give up Nassau. Same with Flint. They both completely underestimated him.

Agreed. Mr. Scott was her slave. Who would've taken care of his family? No one. He had to do the best with what he had. He wasn't lying to her out of malice.

I too can't believe that Flint thought that Rogers would agree to go back to England humiliated and beaten. He knows these people well, spend most of his life among them. It's just a way for them to bring in the Spanish and showcase Roger's determination.

Edited by Tanya852

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I thought about it some more... I think I rushed with my earlier statement on Flint and Rogers. England is at war with Spain (and they've been at each other's throats for God knows how long) and it would've been impossible to predict that Rogers would ask Spain for help.

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Oh, hey, technically Rogers is a traitor now. England and Spain are at war and he has close relations with Spain.

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I love that Flint brought up the question to Eleanor about if Rogers really is that different from them.  She really doesn't know her husband that well.

When Rogers told the Havana governor about where all his friends were, the first thing I thought of is that the fort will be the first place the Spanish will bomb.  Rogers actually killed the man's brother, there's no way he will let that go.

Flint walking through the tunnel was very tense!  I didn't know which way Silver would go. Even though Hands is harsh, he was right to say a king should be decisive.

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Damm, the chills I had when Mrs Hudson started to wonder where they were and I started to slowly realize the only place they could be was Havana... and then I laughed so much with excitation when it was confirmed !

Well, that will definitly open a whole new can of trouble and I cant wait to see what comes of it ! 

Also, on the sidenotes, I wonder if Kofi's delay wasnt because he ran into Julius... after all, the show wouldnt introduce a new major player like that for nothing and it could turn out interesting if the cache is with Julius... maybe a little far-fetched but who knows...

Oh, and I really hope we get some continuation of that last scene on the beach next episode, I really want to see Jack facing Eleanore ! And to get some news on Anne but judging from Jack's behaviour, she's hanging in there ! Really wish she'll recover, though I cant see how she can regain her full strenght in the course of what remains of the season after what she's been through...

Anyway, another splendid episode ! And that exchange between governors at Havana was beautiful ! Light, dialogue, performance... as always, every episode of the show contains at least two extremely memorable scenes (at least), usually a dialogue scene and a more nervous or action-packed one, and this time it would have been that reception at Havana and the whole finale and its build-up ! 

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1 hour ago, Triskan said:

Also, on the sidenotes, I wonder if Kofi's delay wasnt because he ran into Julius... after all, the show wouldnt introduce a new major player like that for nothing and it could turn out interesting if the cache is with Julius... maybe a little far-fetched but who knows...

 

Maybe not so far fetched. It's got to mean something that Kofi's has not yet returned. Either he was delayed by the queen, ran into the Spanish when trying to return or he was snatched up by Julius and LSJ's men missed it. 

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I swear, I say "Oh SHIT!' like five times per episode this season. Every other scene, some other crazy thing happens. And now, because things aren't complicated enough, the Spanish are coming! And NO ONE expected it!*

I need a flow chart to remember who all is allied with who at the moment, and make sure the strings are easily changable. Looks like Billy and Silver are at odds again (or being stabbed by an underling meant something very different to pirates), so no idea where all that's going. It does seem like Silver agrees with his basic point, that they need to cut and run while they can, because no way are they surviving this otherwise. Because...that's true. Especially now that the Spanish are involved.

Speaking of the Spanish, I actually did really like the scene between Rogers and the Spanish commander. Rogers are a dickhead, but he makes a compelling case. On the other hand, the British Empire is NOT going to be happy to hear about this. At this rate, Rogers will have to run off as fast as the pirates will, when the government realizes he cut a deal and allied with a foreign power they're at war with.

Please let us stay on that beach next week! I would love to see Jack confront Eleanor. Speaking of Eleanor, shut up about Mr. Scott. This is hardly some Evil Man manipulating you behind your back. He was a slave trying to do everything he could for his family and the other slaves. Yeah he never told you, but do you blame him? He was hardly doing this just to do a dick to you.

*Get it, because Spanish Inquisition joke...I know its not the Inquisition...I will show myself out now*

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Having read Treasure Island, I knew exactly how the last fifteen minutes were going to go - but dammit, they still made it suspenseful. The irony of Billy being taken down by the very man he "created" (as his friend said: "one part of what you built worked too well") was an act of genius from the writers. The music was amazing too. 

It also brings some incredible context to a scene from Treasure Island in which

Spoiler

an older Billy is so terrified of Silver that he dies of a stroke on hearing of his arrival. Now we know why: he's the monster he created and lost control of.

Silver was definitely looking for an out with his "would I be enough for you?" question to Madi. I'm pretty sure the answer will be 

Spoiler

yes, if she is indeed the dark skinned wife of Stevenson's book, and I'm pretty damn sure that the inn they open together will be the next front for shipping goods to Maroon Island.

A lesser show would have forgotten all about Mr Scott's death and Eleanor's reaction to it, but not this one. It was lovely how they wrapped up that particular relationship (which was a pretty big part of the first two seasons) and in doing so opened a new one between Madi/Eleanor. REALLY looking forward to those two interacting. There was definitely some White Lady Syndrome going on with Eleanor's reaction to news that Scott was doing business dealings behind her back, but part of the sting could have been that he lied to her about it. I mean, I don't think she's so awful that she would have prevented him from helping the Maroons. And there seems no real reason to have told her his wife/daughter were dead. That said, it was entirely up to Mr Scott when it came to what he divulged about his personal life to Eleanor, and since it was within his rights to keep quiet, she'll just have to suck it up. 

Loved the scene between Silver and Israel. Yup, sometimes a leader has just got to make a decision and stick with it. 

On reflection, I don't think Rogers will die (and not just because of historical precedence). I think Eleanor will leave the island with Max (her angry musings on MEN always being behind her is foreshadowing) and Rogers will stay on Nassau - essentially taking her place when it comes to her past obsession with ruling the place, and eventually being consumed with that obsession. 

I have no problems with Flint trusting Eleanor. They've always been birds of a feather; I think they understand each other on a level no other two characters do.

I'm interested to see what will become of the treasure. I mean, something has got to go wrong with the current plan at some point. 

Edited by Ravenya003
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7 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

Oh, hey, technically Rogers is a traitor now. England and Spain are at war and he has close relations with Spain.

Rogers is a total scumbag.  I hope Spain fucks him and good.  The governor of Cuba, or whoever he was should have thrown his sorry ass out of his office/shot him/both.  I thought it was insulting that Rogers goes to Cuba, to the governor's office and asks to speak in English.      WTF, if you want MY help, you speak in MY language, asshole.  And I didn't think Rogers made a case at all.  Why should I fix YOUR problems?  If Spain asked England for help, I doubt England would say, "sure, how can we help."  

Quote

I think Eleanor will leave the island with Max (her angry musings on MEN always being behind her is foreshadowing)

After that scene, I looked at Eleanor and thought, "you really should have stuck with women."  But yes, Eleanor had some serious "white lady syndrome" going on.  "Why didn't Mr. Scott tell MEEEE what was going on?"  

Ravenya003, you are SO right about that scene at the end with Billy.  

Spoiler

I smiled because that scene plays into Billy's fear of Silver.  I mean Billy dies of a stroke, because he just thinks Silver is near.

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14 hours ago, Enero said:

Well Billy drove a wedge alright, between himself and Silver. So many choices made in this episode, but they'll be all for naught with the Spanish now involved in this war. At this point, there is absolutely no way the pirates/Maroons will win this. 

It's a shame, really, because if Madi and the Maroons had stayed out of it, they may have been the ones left standing (outside of the colonizers, maybe) once Nassau is razed, and been a refuge for enslaved Africans who escaped the New Providence Island interior. They at least had somewhat of a stronghold on Maroon Island, and could have added to their numbers. Won't be any of that now.  

Silver knows full well there is no victory to be had (glad someone is clear on this), thus his question to Madi.  Interesting that Madi seems to have fully aligned with Flint in strategy, which is exactly what Billy was warning him against at the beginning of episode 4. Granted, I think Silver pegged Billy right as well - he's just like Flint, flip side of the same coin. He made that clear with the Underhill plantation massacre.    

This show really wants viewers to be sympathetic towards Eleanor, yet I've never been.  That she would lump Mr. Scott in with the other men wasn't surprising. I don't care about Flint, but Toby Stephens' deadpan reactions are often amusing.  After Eleanor's rant, he was totally like, "So....Rogers is the special snowflake, then?" Ha!   

Thinking back on the episode, I wonder if Billy's lookout saw Rackham, not Kofi.  Did Kofi ever actually make it back to Maroon Island? Perhaps he was intercepted by Julius before departure. 

Edited by ribboninthesky1
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Well, duh. I couldn't figure out why Flint thought that the English would leave and the war was over. Why assume no one would come back? You are left with one, repaired ship. The logic made no sense to me. The Spanish are just an added complication. 

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So if Woodes Rodgers can't have Nassau, no one can? 

 I don't see Silver deciding to betray Billy as choosing Flint; I see it as him choosing Madi. Once Billy wrote off the Maroons and Hands slapped Silver into being making a choice, it tipped the scale in favor of his demise. 

When Silver just gave Hands a look and Hands immediately knew to take care of business...totally boss!

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Another fantastic episode.

Rodgers certainly does have a set of brass balls on him to ask for help from a man who's brother he killed.  Also, all his talk about "civilized society" is such colonialism bullshit considering what he did to other people, the pirates, and that he's willing to let all of Nassau burn to the ground so he can score a W.  At least the pirates admit to being pirates.

That being said, Flint should have seen this coming.  He's usually thinking 10 steps ahead, but I think he definitely dropped the ball here because he thought his end goal was so close. 

15 hours ago, Enero said:

That said, I just can't with Eleanor. I get her frustration at feeling like all the men in her life were in some way manipulating her will behind her back, but Mr. Scott was doing what he had to do to keep his FAMILY (and others) safe and furthermore to free them from a life of slavery. But of course, being who she is, a white woman, she cannot see this, but can only see how it undermines what she thought was success achieved by her own skills as a business woman and leader. :/

This so much!  Of course Eleanor would make Mr. Scott, her slave, doing everything within his limited power to save him family from a life of shit ALL about her.  Shut the fuck up, Eleanor!

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Israel Hands beat Billy in two seconds? Okay. For me, the Billy the show has created doesn't match up with

Billy having a stroke because Silver is near.

But the show still keeps me interested, so whatever I guess.

I thought for a couple of moments Rackham was supposed to have lost an eyeball because he kept his left eyelid most of the time.

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1 hour ago, luckyroll3 said:

Another fantastic episode.

Rodgers certainly does have a set of brass balls on him to ask for help from a man who's brother he killed.  Also, all his talk about "civilized society" is such colonialism bullshit considering what he did to other people, the pirates, and that he's willing to let all of Nassau burn to the ground so he can score a W.  At least the pirates admit to being pirates.

Rogers is also a bit of a hypocrite in that the Spanish ship from his backstory was seized while Rogers was a privateer. Privateers were nothing more than state-sanctioned pirates, given a Letter of Marque authorizing them to attack and plunder merchant ships sailing under the flag of a nation at war with the issuer.

I guess a piece of paper makes all the difference!

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6 hours ago, Ottis said:

Well, duh. I couldn't figure out why Flint thought that the English would leave and the war was over. Why assume no one would come back? You are left with one, repaired ship. The logic made no sense to me. The Spanish are just an added complication. 

Not exactly. Of course, they expected that England would return, but that would've taken some time (England is too busy with the war with Spain, they even called back some of Rogers troops) and meanwhile pirates/Maroons would've prepared for it.

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2 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

That being said, Flint should have seen this coming.  He's usually thinking 10 steps ahead, but I think he definitely dropped the ball here because he thought his end goal was so close.

That's what I thought initially. But then I remembered just what the political situation was at the time. Spain's been England's mortal enemy for hundreds of years (there is a whole list of Anglo-Spanish wars) and technically Rogers became a traitor to the crown. No one could've predicted that.

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11 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Thinking back on the episode, I wonder if Billy's lookout saw Rackham, not Kofi.  Did Kofi ever actually make it back to Maroon Island? Perhaps he was intercepted by Julius before departure. 

I think it was Rackham too.

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9 hours ago, ulkis said:

Israel Hands beat Billy in two seconds? Okay. For me, the Billy the show has created doesn't match up with

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Billy having a stroke because Silver is near.

 

Yeah. Even with Silver's betrayal, I'm just not seeing Billy becoming

Spoiler

deathly afraid of him like he is in TI.

I feel like Silver would need to carry out some violent act against Billy himself for that to be believable. 

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13 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

the Maroons

I can neither read this or hear it in the show without thinking of Bugs Bunny and his comic mispronunciation of 'moron'. I blame too many cartoons as a child.

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8 hours ago, Tanya852 said:

Not exactly. Of course, they expected that England would return, but that would've taken some time (England is too busy with the war with Spain, they even called back some of Rogers troops) and meanwhile pirates/Maroons would've prepared for it.

Pirates preparing for the might of England wouldn't have stood a chance, either. Either the Spanish now, or England later, would win. Flint needed a better plan, and I kept hoping for it, but somehow the master strategist only thought as far as winning round 2. 

 

10 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

That being said, Flint should have seen this coming.  He's usually thinking 10 steps ahead, but I think he definitely dropped the ball here because he thought his end goal was so close. 

And his end goal was ... to get the British to leave? And then ... defend the island with one ship? I sure would like to know what his end game was, aside from a few months of relative, pirate-controlled peace.

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Oh, and, by the way, a little though to Mr de Groot who's completely fallen off to the sidelines since he lost his ear... we briefly saw him at the beginning of the episode but I wonder if there's anything left in store for the character by the end of the season ! 

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47 minutes ago, Ottis said:

And his end goal was ... to get the British to leave? And then ... defend the island with one ship? I sure would like to know what his end game was, aside from a few months of relative, pirate-controlled peace.

Kicking the British out of Nassau would've sparked rebellions all over the place. That's what their end goal was. Flint's entire speech to the Maroon Queen was about that. Flint's speech to Madi in 4x03 was about it. Their rebellion is a foreshadowing/inspiration for American Revolution.

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Well Billy drove a wedge alright, between himself and Silver.

Which is what Flint was counting on when he turned himself over to Eleanor.  Billy should have seen that coming a mile away, but he has such hatred for Flint that he can't think straight.  Billy's biggest enemy is Billy.

Things are looking rather bleak for the pirates, I don't expect many, if any to survive this.  In theory, I would hope Silver could try to have a sit down with the Spanish group and try to cut a deal.  From Spain's point of view, I would think that England would be a much bigger problem than the pirates.

Regardless what happens, I just have to hope Rogers gets what is coming to him. 

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1 hour ago, icemiser69 said:

 Billy...has such hatred for Flint that he can't think straight.  Billy's biggest enemy is Billy.

You're absolutely right. Though Silver was seriously pissed about him trying to kill Madi and Flint, I think he was willing to let if ride, common goals and all (plus he considered him a friend). But Billy made it VERY clear during his conversations with Silver in this episode that he A)did not support the alliance with the Maroons, which means he did not support Madi and B) would undermine any decision Silver made that he didn't agree with. 

Though Silver struggled with what he needed to do, at the end of the day, I think he realized that Billy, at this point, was a bigger problem than the potential problem that could be Flint. So he handled him accordingly. 

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16 hours ago, ulkis said:

Israel Hands beat Billy in two seconds? Okay. For me, the Billy the show has created doesn't match up with

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Billy having a stroke because Silver is near.

 

By the time we see Billy in Treasure Island, 

Spoiler

isn't he a defeated, paranoid drunk?  I think given that AND that he's partially at fault for creating a monster that he ultimately loses control of, I can see it.

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17 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

By the time we see Billy in Treasure Island, 

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isn't he a defeated, paranoid drunk?  I think given that AND that he's partially at fault for creating a monster that he ultimately loses control of, I can see it.

Yeah, but that's what I mean, that the Billy they've made doesn't match up with that. Now I guess something can so severely mess him up that

he eventually turns out that way, but I feel like they should have laid the groundwork a bit more in his personality.

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The funny thing about Billy is that, if the alliance with the Maroons had been Silver's (and only his) idea, he wouldn't have posed a threat.  Flint could say something like, "OK, Billy, you're in charge of Nassau, and we'll do whatever you say" and Billy would be diametrically opposed because Flint said it.  

On the one hand, I get it - Billy has seen and experienced too much shit due to Flint, whether in word or deed. But it's so absurdly hilarious now.  I've not read the book, but on the show, Billy rarely makes sense anymore and he used to be the most sensible.  He's been reduced to "I hate Flint, so I'll disagree with anything and everything remotely endorsed by him, no matter how I or my men might benefit."  

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Now I am really curious as to how they're going to resolve Rodgers story because as others have pointed out, he basically committed treason. We know the writers play fast and loose with history with changing the way the characters meet their eventual fates but Woodes historically goes to prison for debts. I don't see how that can be show Rodgers fate since treason would rate higher on the offense scale and I believe was punishable by execution.

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2 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

Now I am really curious as to how they're going to resolve Rodgers story because as others have pointed out, he basically committed treason. We know the writers play fast and loose with history with changing the way the characters meet their eventual fates but Woodes historically goes to prison for debts. I don't see how that can be show Rodgers fate since treason would rate higher on the offense scale and I believe was punishable by execution.

Though he eventually .. 

Spoiler

dies, I believe in Nassau, after going to prison for his debt and returning to the island to rule as Governor for a second time. 

They could end the series with him going 

Spoiler

off to prison for his debt and presumably to face execution for his treasonous behavior, leaving Nassau in the hands of the Pirates/Maroons/slaves for a short while until the new Governor arrives. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out with Spain now involved. If they pull from history there could be potentially be two scenarios,

Spoiler

Spain either withdraws due to one of their Provinces being captured by the British or somehow they are driven out of Nassau,

but not by Rodgers men because he don't have enough soldiers to do this, but by the Pirates/Maroons etc.  that would certainly be a break from history, which this show is not adverse to doing. 

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One thing for sure the director of this episode has a fascination with doors, and entrance, tunnels.  He/she also loved playing with light/shadow on a surface.  The episode opened with a shot of a door/gate at the end of the tunnel, shot from inside the tunnel where Silver emerged.  There were several shots of the fortress gates, doors leading to silver room, doors to Rodgers' cabin, doors to Spanish governor office (closing behind Rodgers, and in front of Mrs. Hudson), door to Flint's cell.  There was cave entrance where Silver got out, where Billy was attacked, and where Eleanor + Flint emerged.  Also, there were shots of Flint and Eleanor walking through tunnel, Rodgers walking to long tunnel like hallway, Rodgers' ship as it approached Spanish port, heck even when Flint got out of his cell he had to climb on stairs in a tunnel like passageway to meet Eleanor.  Pretty sure I missed 6-7 more references to doors, entrances, or tunnels.

I was surprised Spanish armada at the end were shot on wide angle, I thought for sure they would be coming in a single file through some kind of narrow channel :D :D :D

 

ETA: Beside the opening scene, the light and shadow thing could also be seen on Rodgers & Spanish governor's faces

Edited by DarkRaichu
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On 27/02/2017 at 0:17 PM, Neurochick said:

I thought it was insulting that Rogers goes to Cuba, to the governor's office and asks to speak in English.      WTF, if you want MY help, you speak in MY language, asshole.

This is tricky, as I'm pretty sure it was a decision by the show-runners rather than the characters - switching to English for the sake of the audience and/or the actors. So I can't hold that against him, but thankfully there's still plenty to hate him for in the last three episodes. I'm pretty sure this'll be a Pyrrhic Victory for Woodes: he'll regain control of Nassau, but he'll have to spend the rest of his life fighting to keep it (and lose Eleanor/England in the process). 

On 27/02/2017 at 4:25 PM, FlowerofCarnage said:

 I don't see Silver deciding to betray Billy as choosing Flint; I see it as him choosing Madi. Once Billy wrote off the Maroons and Hands slapped Silver into being making a choice, it tipped the scale in favor of his demise. 

Definitely. That's what the forehead kiss was all about. 

On 27/02/2017 at 4:52 PM, ulkis said:

I thought for a couple of moments Rackham was supposed to have lost an eyeball because he kept his left eyelid most of the time.

Heh, I'm pretty sure Toby just had the sun in his eyes.

People have been saying that Mr Scott was Eleanor's slave - but is that technically true? Honest question. I always got the impression that he was a devoted servant rather than a slave. A PAID devoted servant. (And not really devoted either since it was all a front to send supplies to Maroon Island). I'm not the hugest fan of Eleanor, and I also rolled my eyes at her irritation that Scott had a life that didn't involve her, but I'm pretty sure she never owned slaves. 

Also, people were saying last week that it was out of character for Rackham to surrender to Woodes - Toby said on Twitter that he surrendered for the sake of Anne, who was already on board Woodes's ship and in considerable danger. 

Edited by Ravenya003
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I knew Billy was f%cked the moment I saw Joji (the asian guy in Flint's crew) among the people behind the bushes.  That dude was one of the most loyal pirate to Flint.  If Silver was any good, he would never bring Joji along to ambush Flint.

Yeah my love for Joji knows no bound :P

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On 2/26/2017 at 5:17 PM, Neurochick said:

 I thought it was insulting that Rogers goes to Cuba, to the governor's office and asks to speak in English.      WTF, if you want MY help, you speak in MY language, asshole.

I thought that was Rodgers' effort to hold on to the last ounce of his British pride.  He was begging for help from someone in the position of power (sworn enemy of England no less) without much of leverage

Edited by DarkRaichu

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1 hour ago, Ravenya003 said:

People have been saying that Mr Scott was Eleanor's slave - but is that technically true? Honest question. I always got the impression that he was a devoted servant rather than a slave.

Mr. Scott to Eleanor in 1x07: "I belong to you. Chattel property of the Guthrie estate."

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2 minutes ago, Tanya852 said:

Mr. Scott to Eleanor in 1x07: "I belong to you. Chattel property of the Guthrie estate."

Yikes, I have no memory of that. Pretty definitive though.

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Only a truly intellectually bankrupt identity-politics show would dare to make the relationship between a woman and her slave into her being wronged by him.

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Israel Hands beat Billy in two seconds? Okay. For me, the Billy the show has created doesn't match up with

Same. We've seen Billy fight on many occasions. He held his own with Vane in season 2 and was doing just fine until Vane's men stepped in. He hacked a guy in half with one swing of an axe. He's been leading men into raids for months now. Hard for me to buy that a guy twice his age and half his size took him down that easy.

I can't wait for Rogers to get his. I think this little plan of his will probably get Eleanor killed. Speaking of, could she get any more self-involved and entitled with her whiny "My slave didn't adore me after all? The nerve of him!" Ugh.

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19 hours ago, Kathemy said:

Only a truly intellectually bankrupt identity-politics show would dare to make the relationship between a woman and her slave into her being wronged by him.

That's the reason I questioned whether he was actually her slave or not, because surely no writer could be THAT tone deaf. I thought they did pretty well with the slave ship in season one and the plantation revolt this season, but at some point they really dropped the ball on Mr Scott. 

Edit: Though I've just remembered that his final words to Madi were: "I only have one daughter", which was a pretty clear indication of where his loyalties always lay. Really looking forward to any sort of Eleanor/Madi interaction in the remaining five episodes. 

Edited by Ravenya003

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44 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

That's the reason I questioned whether he was actually her slave or not, because surely no writer could be THAT tone deaf. I thought they did pretty well with the slave ship in season one and the plantation revolt this season, but at some point they really dropped the ball on Mr Scott.  

No, no. This is intersectionality-in-action. The basic tenet is that different forms of injustice can't be compared with each other. In other words it's A-OK that Eleanor is rich, white and owns slaves because "I'M A WOMAN WOE IS ME!!!"

I'm rich? So what, I'm black. I'm rich and white? So what, I'm a woman. I'm a rich white man? So what, I'm gay. I'm a rich white straight man? So what, I have ADHD. 

It's the Swiss army knife of claiming victimhood.

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I love everything about this show! There really isn't a character I hate-- and that's saying something -- because I usually hate someone -- sometimes so much I can't/won't watch certain shows.

Ok. I adore the Flint/Eleanore dynamic. I have been fascinated by them from the beginning. And yes Eleanore >>>  Woods Rogers is just like all the other men-- he wants to control you. I hardly ever spoil myself on shows I like because I want to see how it all unfolds-- but man oh man! I want Eleanore and Max to get in a boat and get the hell out of dodge! To go ...somewhere...and start a new life. Sigh. Somehow from all the hate Eleanore gets I just don't see a happy ending. And history tells me that women who dare to seek and hold power must always be punished.

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On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:21 AM, FlowerofCarnage said:

Seethe, Eleanor! Seethe that a man you kept in bondage for years was secretly manipulating you all that time.

"Would I be enough for you?"  Dammit! I hope we get Madi's answer very soon.

Remember-- Eleanore didn't own him-- her father did. (Oh so he was owned by the Guthrie family?)

"Only a truly intellectually bankrupt identity-politics show would dare to make the relationship between a woman and her slave into her being wronged by him."

Or... they are coming at it from the perspective of an 18th century person who lives in the time of slavery? They (the characters) are all products of their environment-- I felt her reaction was exactly as the character has been portrayed during the entire series.

Edited by taanja
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I would buy that if Eleanor didn't say that SHE never saw Mr. Scott "that way" (season 2, I think?).  Which doesn't mean shit in reality.  She did choose not to enslave Eme and the other enslaved Africans from Captain Bryson's ship.  But I ain't giving out gold stars for basic decency. 

I don't know, maybe because I binge-watched the show, but this show does what every just about every show in historical drama I've seen likes to do: have the protagonists be amazingly progressive for the period. So you have Flint, Silver, and Eleanor who don't appear to advocate slavery, and even *gasp* sees the Maroons and enslaved Africans as people so the showrunners don't have to directly deal with that pesky racism.   

Mr. Scott was retconned with the Maroon Island storyline, but I just went with it.    

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1 hour ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I would buy that if Eleanor didn't say that SHE never saw Mr. Scott "that way" (season 2, I think?).  Which doesn't mean shit in reality.  She did choose not to enslave Eme and the other enslaved Africans from Captain Bryson's ship.  But I ain't giving out gold stars for basic decency. 

I don't know, maybe because I binge-watched the show, but this show does what every just about every show in historical drama I've seen likes to do: have the protagonists be amazingly progressive for the period. So you have Flint, Silver, and Eleanor who don't appear to advocate slavery, and even *gasp* sees the Maroons and enslaved Africans as people so the showrunners don't have to directly deal with that pesky racism.   

Mr. Scott was retconned with the Maroon Island storyline, but I just went with it.    

Well, in this particular case, Nassau is supposed to be the place where people who don't  fit into "civilization" can thrive. I mean both Eleanor and later Anne had a same-sex relationship with biracial Max and no one in Nassau batted an eye.

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On 3/1/2017 at 3:15 PM, taanja said:

And history tells me that women who dare to seek and hold power must always be punished.

Yeah, ehm, like Elizabeth I, Margaret Thatcher, Victoria...

... and as opposed to Lincoln, Allende, Kennedy, Palme, Guevara...

Edited by Kathemy

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