Endgame Discussion and Speculation

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

No way would that ever happen.  In winter that would be an extremely trying journey for even the most experienced frontiersman, let alone a 14-year-old girl who has never traveled anywhere by herself and on her own resources.

Not on her own. Grey girl = silent sister. Sansa would join them for a time, perhaps escorting Northern dead from White Harbor (she just has to get to WH). It is the only order we haven't really seen the inner workings of, and it's the perfect cover because they cover their faces and don't have to talk. Based on:

“The silent sisters had taken his bones north, escorted by Hallis Mollen and a small honor guard.” - Catelyn, ASoS

"The wolves were grey, and so were the silent sisters; together they stripped the flesh from the fallen. ” - Tyrion, ACoK

“When the appointed day arrives, you will speak your wedding vows, else you will join the silent sisters and never speak again.” - Manderly, ACoK

“Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman” - Jeyne Heedle, AFFC

"She was all in grey, a silent sister.” - Jaime, AFFC

Foreshadowing Cersei's death by Sansa: "The sight of the silent sisters in their grey robes filled the queen with sudden terrors. Why are they here? Am I to die? The silent sisters attended to the dead." - Cersei, AFfC

Why the episode where Jon and Sansa meet is called "Book of the Stranger": "Grey was the color of the silent sisters, the handmaidens of the Stranger." - Brienne, AFFC 

Alayne was supposed to join the Faith before going to the Vale.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Colorful Mess]

Also, with all the talk about Jon not remembering Sansa and how Sansa is absent from his thoughts (which is intentional; it's how you set up a plot twist), the phrase silent sister has even more meaning. 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Do you think that Jon would have broken his NW oath and rallied the wildlings to go attack WF if Sansa was with Ramsay?

He didn't break his oath when Arya was with Ramsay, though. He got Ramsay's letter announcing his marriage to 'Arya', along with his conquest of Moat Cailin and a celebratory  wholesale flaying of Ironborn (a practice Ned had forbidden), less than halfway through ADWD. Jon was devastated, but said 'I have no sister.' It was Melisandre who took the initiative to send Mance to help Arya in an effort to win Jon's goodwill. And chapters went by when Jon barely mentioned Arya, AFAICT. It took Ramsay's letter saying Arya had escaped from him - also that he'd defeated Stannis and wanted Jon to hand over 'Arya' (who Jon didn't actually have), Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen, Val, and Mance's supposed baby son,  openly threatened the Watch and demanding they give up women and children from their sanctuary into a flayer's hands...which only happened at the end of Jon's last chapter near the end of the book.

So, no, I agree that Jon would NOT have broken his NW oath and rallied the wildlings to go attack WF if Sansa was with Ramsay - but he didn't do it when Arya was with Ramsay, either. By the time he finally acted, it was not just about Arya. It was also about the wildlings Jon has been gradually sacrificing his reputation with the conservatives in the Watch to try to save. It was even about Selyse and Shireen, and Jon's own honor. I do agree (and have agreed all along) that Jon loves Arya and only mildly likes Sansa. Do I think he would have agreed to send Mance Rayder to help Sansa? Yes, I do. Yes, Tyrion is an enemy and Ramsay is an enemy, but that doesn't mean he would consider them equally good husbands for Sansa and be indifferent to her fate with the flayer. You disagree with me, and that's fine. Do I think, when finally confronted with Ramsay's demand for not just Sansa, but Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen, Val, and the baby, Jon would have shrugged his shoulders, bent over, and meekly done his best to comply with Ramsay's demands, just because it isn't Arya he's asking for? Hell no.

I've been re-reading Jon's last chapter just now. If we're going to actually talk about endgame instead of only rehashing the past, it's instructive to see just what was on Jon's mind before his death. If the resurrected, like Beric, mainly fixate on the mission they were on when they died, then resurrected Jon will NOT be thinking about his ambitions to be Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. What he will be concerned and working for is the wildlings at the Wall and Hardhome, saving them from the dead things in the water, and saving them from the attack of Ramsay, regardless of whether it's against Watch rules. And one more thing Jon thought about:

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He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair...He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself...He thought of Arya, her hair tangled as a bird's nest.

Yes, he loves Arya best, and always will. However: The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Sansa is his pack, too, and he doesn't forget her for good, any more than she does him. When the time comes, they'll pull together, IMO.

Edited April 12, 2018 by screamin

[anamika]

3 hours ago, screamin said:

He didn't break his oath when Arya was with Ramsay, though. He got Ramsay's letter announcing his marriage to 'Arya', along with his conquest of Moat Cailin and a celebratory  wholesale flaying of Ironborn (a practice Ned had forbidden), less than halfway through ADWD. He was devastated, but said 'I have no sister.' It was Melisande who took the initiative to send Mance to help Arya in an effort to win Jon's goodwill. And chapters went by when Jon barely mentioned Arya, AFAICT. It took Ramsay's letter saying Arya had escaped from him - also that he'd defeated Stannis and wanted Jon to hand over 'Arya' (who Jon didn't actually have), Melisandre, Selyse, Shireen, Val, and Mance's supposed baby son, who else, openly threatened the Watch and demanding they give up women and children from their sanctuary into a flayer's hands...which only happened at the end of Jon's last chapter near the end of the book.

You are right in that if he hesitated with Arya itself to break his oaths, he would not have even bothered with Sansa and gone about his business as usual.

But sending Mance on the mission to rescue Arya? That was breaking his oaths by interfering in the affairs of the realm. That was getting help from Mel when he did not want to feel indebted to her. Which is why he hesitates to do anything about it until Mel pushes him into it.

And yeah, maybe Jon does not constantly think of Arya, given he has other things to do like prepare for an impending attack by the Others, but she is mentioned quite often - Jon is often anguished about not being able to do anything about her. Some examples:

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By now she’d be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. “I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily.

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“I have no sister.” The words were knives. What do you know of my heart, priestess? What do you know of my sister?

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Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priestess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.

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He glanced at the letter again. I will save your sister if I can. A surprisingly tender sentiment from Stannis, though undercut by that final, brutal if I can and the addendum and find a better match for her than Ramsay Snow. But what if Arya was not there to be saved? What if Lady Melisandre’s flames had told it true? Could his sister truly have escaped such captors? How would she do that? Arya was always quick and clever, but in the end she’s just a little girl, and Roose Bolton is not the sort who would be careless with a prize of such great worth.

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He wanted to believe it would be Arya. He wanted to see her face again, to smile at her and muss her hair, to tell her she was safe. She won’t be safe, though. Winterfell is burned and broken and there are no more safe places.

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It had been so long since he had last seen Arya. What would she look like now? Would he even know her? Arya Underfoot. Her face was always dirty. Would she still have that little sword he’d had Mikken forge for her? Stick them with the pointy end, he’d told her. Wisdom for her wedding night if half of what he heard of Ramsay Snow was true. Bring her home, Mance. I saved your son from Melisandre, and now I am about to save four thousand of your free folk. You owe me this one little girl.

Do you really think that Jon would be in this much angst over Sansa married to Ramsay? The guy who could not even spare one thought to how Sansa was doing married to Tyrion?  That he would take the risk and use Mel's help to send a valuable prisoner like Mance after Sansa?

3 hours ago, screamin said:

So, no, I agree that Jon would NOT have broken his NW oath and rallied the wildlings to go attack WF if Sansa was with Ramsay - but he didn't do it when Arya was with Ramsay, either. By the time he finally acted, it was not just about Arya. It was also about the wildlings Jon has been gradually sacrificing his reputation with the conservatives in the Watch to try to save.

No, when he finally acted, it WAS about Arya. You wrote down his thoughts at the end there, but conveniently left out the pertinent part:

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Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason.

He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

He knows that fighting the Boltons is treason and if he goes down that path, it's over.  You can see him go down his list of siblings and it's when he comes to Arya that he finally makes the decision to attack. He does not have Arya with him and Ramsay is after her - that's what pushes him to change the plans to now include the attack on WF.  It was Arya's fate that pushes him to finally break his NW oaths - not Robb, not Bran, not Rickon, not Sansa. But for Arya. 

And for the record, his thought of Sansa here is the only time he thinks of Sansa in the entire book.

And no, Jon has not forgotten Sansa. She just comes way down his list of concerns and he does not worry about where she is or what she is doing.  And Sansa admits to forgetting Jon until Myranda reminds her that she has a brother at the wall. This is true, because in AFfC she looks through all her options:

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Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun.

What about Jon?! The thought never crosses her mind that she has a brother at the wall. She even considers Tyrion as an option but not Jon. Compare that to Arya trying to make her way to Jon at the wall after Robb and Cat's deaths. Even Alys Karstark escaped her family and headed over to the wall because there was a Stark there.

The point being made is that Jon and Sansa are indifferent and not too close siblings. Just look at Jon's thoughts through-out the books:

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He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells; Bran lying broken, Robb with snow in his hair, Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle.

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father.

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran . . . forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.

Sansa thinks of playing in the snow with Bran and Arya and snowflakes in Robb's hair but never of Jon. It's clear that they don't pop up in each other's thoughts.

Again, these are two characters whose stories and plots are not relevant to each other and who don't have much of a relationship in the books. If they do ever meet it could possibly be because the Vale's food resources are needed for the survivors fleeing south or like on the show Sansa/LF are opposed to Jon as KITN. Going forward, I don't see them having much of a story together in the series. Sansa has her own plot going on and the relevant sibling in her plot is Arya with whom she has issues to sort out. Jon has his own plot going on which will be about the Others, Arya, Dany, his parentage etc.

Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika

[Happy Harpy]

Endgame: 3+3=6

Tumblr-ist: But a "3" is shaped like a "9" and a "6" is a reversed "9". 9+9=9, it is known!

 This sums-up my feelings re: the theory linked on the previous page.

I know the actors are hyping something "unexpected" for S8, but they always tease the "unexpected". Watching Youtube reactors (I'm in withdrawal, don't judge) I realized that the most "casual viewer" types with no book knowledge whatsoever were floored by R+ L=J, and some didn't even guess "R" immediately. 

The endgame might be unexpected indeed, even for those more involved in the fandom. Nevertheless, looking at the WTF moments so far, they weren't very complicated. Stannis burning Shireen was surprising because many (me included) didn't think he'd go that far, not because it was something most people never fathomed...since it was explicitly discussed in universe. It was a cruel end, but it obeyed to simple logic. Hodor = Hold the door, clever but simple; as for Bran being able to intervene in the past, and the link between "past" and "future", they were established in the first flash-back when Ned heard him. Hence, what happened to Hodor is akin to 3 (Bran able to warg into him) + 3 (Bran able to affect the past with the future) = 6 (consequence of that combination, poor Hodor).

That's why I don't believe that so much head or facts contortions will be necessary to find foreshadowing of the main characters' endgame, when it exists -"when", since some twists will certainly come out of left field. But if we're lucky, they'll make sense.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Colorful Mess]

First of all, Jon knows BOTH sisters are alone in King's Landing, without their wolves for protection, and he is concerned about them BOTH. He doesn't think "well, Arya is who I'm really concerned about, because Sansa's a bitch." What happens after with Sansa is suppression of thought. What can Jon do about her in King's Landing while he's stuck at the Wall? At least Winterfell was a place he knew, and could do something about.

Secondly, the fArya plot is a device for Jon to confront his distorted thinking, because the sister he's thinking of is not his sister. The sister he's thinking of is in a Sansa-like situation (and is actually Sansa's best friend and her little shadow). Its establishing a reckoning moment for him. 

What seems to bother Jon is that Arya is very very young; he sees her as a child who's incapable of defending herself, and Bolton is scarier than Tyrion. The reader knows Arya doesn't fit his image he has of her. The reader knows Sansa had to fend off a man on her wedding night. The reader knows that Sansa was forced into a wedding dress without her permission. The reader knows that Sansa was crying internally all through her wedding. The reader knows this was a forced marriage and Sansa had no ability to protect herself.

Now Jon can feel like a dumbass when he realizes he neglected Sansa's plight while Arya was perfectly capable of defending herself all along. Jon will have REGRETS. He will realize he was thinking mypoically. If he hears what she went through (especially if it gets worse with LF), and you still think he wouldn't care about her, then you'd be commiting character assassination. 

Jon and Sansa will meet, because the payoff for this realization is just too good for a writer to pass up.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

All these book theories just make me think that GRRM will never finish the books because he has no idea how to get the major players to their endgame lol. Jon has two books to get resurrected and deal with that drama, possibly fight the Boltons and retake Winterfell, get crowned KiTN, reunite with Arya and possibly his other siblings, meet Dany and fall love with her, and join forces with Dany’s crew to take out the WW and Cersei. He will also presumably get told by someone about his true parentage and have some major angst, and maybe hook up with Val prior to meeting Dany.

Meanwhile Dany has two books to deal with the Dothraki situation, sort out Mereen, sail to Westeros, meet Jon and fall in love with him, and join forces with Jon’s crew to fight Cersei and the WW. Oh and I guess fAegon must fit in there as well.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

Now Jon can feel like a dumbass when he realizes he neglected Sansa's plight while Arya was perfectly capable of defending herself all along. Jon will have REGRETS. He will realize he was thinking mypoically. If he hears what she went through (especially if it gets worse with LF), and you still think he wouldn't care about her, then you'd be commiting character assassination.

 

So Jon manipulating Dany by sleeping with her for her dragons/armies and betraying her is totally in character but if he does not care about Sansa then that's character assassination? Ok then.

Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

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57 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Jon manipulating Dany by sleeping with her for her dragons/armies and betraying her is totally in character but if he does not care about Sansa then that's character assassination? Ok then.

 

Well duh...Dany is an evil witch/warlord and Jons destiny is to eventually outwit her with his penis and control her dragons so he can eventually rule with his true love , Sansa the brave and just and save the kingdom. Didn’t you realize that? Sansa is the ice to Jon’s fire...FIRE of LOVE!!!!

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

First of all, Jon knows BOTH sisters are alone in King's Landing, without their wolves for protection, and he is concerned about them BOTH. He doesn't think "well, Arya is who I'm really concerned about, because Sansa's a bitch." What happens after with Sansa is suppression of thought. What can Jon do about her in King's Landing while he's stuck at the Wall? At least Winterfell was a place he knew, and could do something about.

 

Except that as @anamika pointed out, Jon thinks of Arya all the time and not Sansa long before her marriage to Tyrion (see the AGOT passage cited where Jon looks forward to seeing Ned and Arya again but makes no mention of Sansa). There's no "suppression of thought" with Jon when he's upset about a beloved sister, since he's incapable of suppressing his anguish when it comes to Arya marrying Ramsay. Using your logic, Jon actually cares more about Sansa than Arya, because he can't even bear to think about what Sansa's going through whereas he obsesses on Arya's plight day and night, and that just makes no sense whatsoever. 

Book Jon is completely indifferent to Sansa's plight, and again, it's hardly surprising given their distant relationship. 

 

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Secondly, the fArya plot is a device for Jon to confront his distorted thinking, because the sister he's thinking of is not his sister. The sister he's thinking of is in a Sansa-like situation (and is actually Sansa's best friend and her little shadow). Its establishing a reckoning moment for him. 

Why are you trying to make something that's entirely about Arya about Sansa instead? Sansa has her own storyline. It has nothing to do with Jon. 

 

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What seems to bother Jon is that Arya is very very young; he sees her as a child who's incapable of defending herself, and Bolton is scarier than Tyrion.

What bothers him is that someone he loves is going to be married off against her will and raped. Cat and Robb react to the news of Sansa's marriage to Tyrion the way Jon reacts to Arya's marriage to Ramsay. It's not a coincidence: Cat and Robb care about Sansa in a way that Jon just doesn't.

What causes Jon to reconsider Tyrion's character given that he named Jon his friend is the news that he murdered Tywin, not his marriage to Sansa. The fact of Tyrion's marriage to Sansa doesn't alter Jon's good opinion of Tyrion at all, which is more evidence that he doesn't care about her.

Jon doesn't consider Arya a defenseless child at all; he even thinks that Arya will fight Ramsay and hopes that she remembers to stick Ramsay with the pointy end.

 

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Now Jon can feel like a dumbass when he realizes he neglected Sansa's plight while Arya was perfectly capable of defending herself all along. Jon will have REGRETS.

Why would he? He never regretted not saying goodbye to Sansa at Winterfell. He didn't care about Sansa then, and he doesn't now. 

Contrast Jon's blase attitude to Sansa's forced marriage with Cat and Robb's attitude:

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"Mother, there is something you must know."
Catelyn's heart skipped a beat. This is something he hates. Something he dreads to tell me. All she could think of was Brienne and her mission. "Is it the Kingslayer?"
"No. It's Sansa."
She's dead, Catelyn thought at once. Brienne failed, Jaime is dead, and Cersei has killed my sweet girl in retribution. For a moment she could barely speak. "Is . . . is she gone, Robb?"
"Gone?" He looked startled. "Dead? Oh, Mother, no, not that, they haven't harmed her, not that way, only . . . a bird came last night, but I couldn't bring myself to tell you, not until your father was sent to his rest." Robb took her hand. "They married her to Tyrion Lannister."
Catelyn's fingers clutched at his. "The Imp."
"Yes."
"He swore to trade her for his brother," she said numbly. "Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?"
"He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood." Robb's fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. "If I could I'd take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There's no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak."
Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. "I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa . . . why would anyone do this to her?"

They're shocked, horrified and disgusted, because they care deeply about Sansa and Jon just doesn't.

 

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Jon and Sansa Arya will meet

Fixed that for you.

Jon reuniting with the sister he never really liked who treated him poorly due to his bastardy, the same sister who still looks down him as a mere half-brother? Meh.

Jon reuniting with the sister he has always adored, broke his vows for and died to protect, the same sister who never cared about his bastardy and who has been fighting since AGOT to make her way back to him? That's payoff. 

GRRM has invested everything in Jon and Arya's relationship and nothing in Jon and Sansa's relationship. I'm not sure why you're trying to make everything about Jon's love for Arya relate to Sansa instead. Sansa really has nothing to do with Jon, and vice versa.

 

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

All these book theories just make me think that GRRM will never finish the books because he has no idea how to get the major players to their endgame lol. Jon has two books to get resurrected and deal with that drama, possibly fight the Boltons and retake Winterfell, get crowned KiTN, reunite with Arya and possibly his other siblings, meet Dany and fall love with her, and join forces with Dany’s crew to take out the WW and Cersei. He will also presumably get told by someone about his true parentage and have some major angst, and maybe hook up with Val prior to meeting Dany.

Meanwhile Dany has two books to deal with the Dothraki situation, sort out Mereen, sail to Westeros, meet Jon and fall in love with him, and join forces with Jon’s crew to fight Cersei and the WW. Oh and I guess fAegon must fit in there as well.

GRRM even said something to the effect that Tyrion would meet Dany "in a way" or "after a fashion" in TWOW, which seems to imply that they're going to meet for real in TWOW at all. Seriously?

The Aegon/Arianne plot in of itself is going to drag everything out so much. I'm not surprised D&D wanted to cut the Dorne storyline out altogether and only changed their mind when Bryan Cogman (or Dave Hill, can't remember) talked them out of it. Eliminating fake Aegon was one of the most obvious choices they had to make, which is why I was surprised when book readers were shocked at his omission from the show. (And once Aegon was gone, Arianne had to go as well.)

Edited April 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[Colorful Mess]

56 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Jon manipulating Dany by sleeping with her for her dragons/armies and betraying her is totally in character but if he does not care about Sansa then that's character assassination? Ok then.

The point I'm disagreeing with is that Jon would not care what happened to his sister after reuniting with her. If you disagree with that statement, then please offer evidence for why you think he wouldn't care about her.

[Colorful Mess]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why are you trying to make something that's entirely about Arya about Sansa instead? Sansa has her own storyline. It has nothing to do with Jon. 

 

Because the author decided to link Sansa, Jeyne, and "Arya" in this plot. Littlefinger is even involved because he took Jeyne and dressed her up as Arya to give to the Boltons. He's making a play to weaken the Bolton's hold on the North so that he can come in and take it later, using Sansa. Littlefinger is fooling both Jon (indirectly) and Sansa. Both are implicated in this, and set up for future resolution.

[anamika]

11 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

The point I'm disagreeing with is that Jon would not care what happened to his sister after reuniting with her. If you disagree with that statement, then please offer evidence for why you think he wouldn't care about her.

I have already offered evidence over the last two pages, with quotes from the books. I suggest you read them.

The point is that I am dealing with facts in the books, not fanfiction about how the grey girl is Sansa, how the fArya plot is about Sansa, how pomegranates are about Sansa, how Jon's entire story revolves around Sansa etc.

And the books say that Jon and Sansa are distant, indifferent siblings who really don't care about each other all that much.

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM even said something to the effect that Tyrion would meet Dany "in a way" or "after a fashion" in TWOW, which seems to imply that they're going to meet for real in TWOW at all. Seriously?

The Aegon/Arianne plot in of itself is going to drag everything out so much. I'm not surprised D&D wanted to cut the Dorne storyline out altogether and only changed their mind when Bryan Cogman (or Dave Hill, can't remember) talked them out of it. Eliminating fake Aegon was one of the most obvious choices they had to make, which is why I was surprised when book readers were shocked at his omission from the show. (And once Aegon was gone, Arianne had to go as well.)

Not to mention GRRM keeps insisting that Lady Stoneheart will be playing an important role as well. So there's the entire Riverlands plot with the Freys. Arya has to get to Winterfell after her training and there is still the Vale/LF plot.

There's no way he can finish the series in two books.

Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika

[screamin]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

But sending Mance on the mission to rescue Arya? That was breaking his oaths by interfering in the affairs of the realm. That was getting help from Mel when he did not want to feel indebted to her. Which is why he hesitates to do anything about it until Mel pushes him into it.

IIRC, Jon didn't particularly agonize over sending Mance Rayder as a violation of his oaths. In any case, you think Jon would have shrugged off Mel's offer to send Mance to save Sansa with, "Nope, Sansa will be fine with the flayer." I don't. I think we must agree to disagree.

I mentioned that I just read Jon's last chapters, so quoting large swathes of them at me isn't really necessary...as for the 'pertinent' part you say I left out, it just makes the point I already made earlier - that Jon did not break his oaths simply to rescue Arya from the clutches of evil Ramsay as you'd said he did...by the time he breaks his oaths, 'Arya' is no longer in Ramsay's possession. His breaking of his oath is the culmination of a book-long gradual bending of the rules - for the wildlings, for Stannis, for his nostalgia for his family as a whole as well as for Arya. And yes, I do agree that he loved Arya best, and that Sansa, the only other living relative he knows of, is a far-distant second in his affections. I never denied it. So I don't see why my unchanged view that he does have some vague distant familial affection for Sansa that she does return and that will plotwise be strengthened in the future in the Vale raises such hackles. How does your opinion about the absolute indifference you think he feels toward Sansa affect the endgame? That is, after all, the topic.

Regarding that, a more interesting and pertinent question than my belief about a hypothetical past situation that never happened would be: How do you think Jon is going to react when he gets resurrected, and no doubt starts out fixated on his mission to kick Ramsay's ass and ends up finding out that the 'Arya' that escaped and thus helped precipitate Ramsay's attack and Jon's breaking of his vows is actually Jeyne, a girl he really IS absolutely indifferent to and would be more likely than not hostile to if he manages to remember her, considering she called Arya 'Horseface'? And that she's accompanied by fucking Theon Greyjoy?

Edited April 12, 2018 by screamin

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

A general reminder that comments directed at fellow posters must be kept civil please. 

[Colorful Mess]

17 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Except that as @anamika pointed out, Jon thinks of Arya all the time and not Sansa long before her marriage to Tyrion (see the AGOT passage cited where Jon looks forward to seeing Ned and Arya again but makes no mention of Sansa). There's no "suppression of thought" with Jon when he's upset about a beloved sister, since he's incapable of suppressing his anguish when it comes to Arya marrying Ramsay. Using your logic, Jon actually cares more about Sansa than Arya, because he can't even bear to think about what Sansa's going through whereas he obsesses on Arya's plight day and night, and that just makes no sense whatsoever. 

I'm talking about the passage after he learns that Ned has been declared a traitor to the crown:

Quote

 

“My lord, what of my sisters? Arya and Sansa, they were with my father, do you know—”

...Jon did not remember standing or leaving the solar. The next he knew, he was descending the tower steps, thinking, This is my father, my sisters, how can it be none of my concern?”

The girls do not even have that much, he thought. Their wolves might have kept them safe, but Lady is dead and Nymeria’s lost, they’re all alone.

 

He's not indifferent. He's not thinking straight. Suppression of Sansa in his mind is so that he can confront his stupidity later. The reunion everyone wants will not be Jon/Arya because that's what everyone expects. Why would the author fulfill reader (and Jon's) expectations in this instance. He is known for his ironic, unexpected plot twists. That is why the it was such a shock on the show. It was successfully a WTF moment.

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

So I don't see why my unchanged view that he does have some vague distant familial affection for Sansa that she does return and that will plotwise be strengthened in the future in the Vale raises such hackles. How does your opinion about the absolute indifference you think he feels toward Sansa affect the endgame? That is, after all, the topic.

Because some fans seem convinced that Jon and Sansa's arcs and endgames are entwined and levy arguments of the type you've raised to support that contention, in spite of the ample evidence in the books that they have a distant and indifferent relationship and that their arcs are not connected in any way. That's why it's relevant.

 

9 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

He's not indifferent. He's not thinking straight. Suppression of Sansa in his mind is so that he can confront his stupidity later. 

He must be amazingly good at suppression, then, because he has so suppressed Sansa that nothing can move him to sympathy for Sansa's plight, not even the news that another sister is being forced into marriage as Sansa was, and not even the news that Sansa's husband murdered his own father.

[anamika]

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

IIRC, Jon didn't particularly agonize over sending Mance Rayder as a violation of his oaths. In any case, you think Jon would have shrugged off Mel's offer to send Mance to save Sansa with, "Nope, Sansa will be fine with the flayer." I don't. I think we must agree to disagree.

We don't know whether Jon agonizes over if sending Mance was a violation of his oaths - but he does think that Mance will be useful at the wall as a source of information - that's why he asks Stannis not to burn him. He also does not want Mel's help, so much so that he says this:

Quote

The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.

The point is not that Jon is going to sit there and weigh the pros and cons of leaving Sansa with Ramsay. The point is that Jon would ignore that she is even there, just like he totally ignores her situation with Tyrion. @Eyes High points out Robb and Cat's emotional reaction to hearing about Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Why was Jon not similarly affected?

And anyway, why are you coming up with hypothetical situations of what Jon would and would not do if Sansa was married off to Ramsay? This is a plot that focuses on Jon's relationship with Arya and slowly builds up until he says fuck it and decides to go attack Ramsay to save Arya. We already know what Jon's reaction was to hearing about Sansa's marriage to the enemy - utter and total indifference.

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

I mentioned that I just read Jon's last chapters, so quoting large swathes of them at me isn't really necessary...as for the 'pertinent' part you say I left out, it just makes the point I already made earlier - that Jon did not break his oaths simply to rescue Arya from the clutches of evil Ramsay as you'd said he did...by the time he breaks his oaths, 'Arya' is no longer in Ramsay's possession.

What does it matter if Arya is no longer in his possession?! Why is this so important? Ramsay is still chasing after Arya. Jon send Mance after the grey girl - the grey girl turned out to be Alys and Mance has disappeared. Then he gets a letter from Ramsay talking about Mance and demanding Arya. When Arya is not with him. He is worried that Ramsay is going after Arya.

If it was not clear before I will quote again:

Quote

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

Jon breaks his oaths for Arya.

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

His breaking of his oath is the culmination of a book-long gradual bending of the rules - for the wildlings, for Stannis, for his nostalgia for his family as a whole as well as for Arya.

Jon commits treason for the wildlings, Stannis and nostalgia for his family? lol!

I don't know why it's so hard to accept that Jon breaks his oaths for Arya when Jon's thought process is outlined right there.  Because it's not Sansa? Because Sansa has to be included? Because it's unacceptable that Jon does it for Arya and not Sansa?

27 minutes ago, screamin said:

 So I don't see why my unchanged view that he does have some vague distant familial affection for Sansa that she does return and that will plotwise be strengthened in the future in the Vale raises such hackles. How does your opinion about the absolute indifference you think he feels toward Sansa affect the endgame? That is, after all, the topic.

It's not going to affect the endgame. That's the point. Jon will be doing his own thing and Sansa will be doing hers and never the twain shall meet.  If they do meet, and if the show is any hint, it could be Sansa opposing Jon as KITN under LF's influence. Or Jon sending Sansa a message asking for food once she gets control of the Vale. That's about the extent of the Jon-Sansa storylines I can see in the series. GRRM has not invested in their relationship and has no interest in doing so - he is busy writing Jon dying for Arya.

Edited April 12, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

I have already offered evidence over the last two pages, with quotes from the books. I suggest you read them.

The point is that I am dealing with facts in the books,

I'm talking about a future prediction for how Jon might feel toward Sansa, AFTER he's already met with her - evidence of past thoughts doesn't appear to address this. Could you link to the post if I've missed it?

There is literal text and there is subtext. The author is extremely subtextual in his writing because he uses food, clothing, animals, and other characters with parallel arcs to weave in mythological tropes and foreshadow events. Sansa refusing to eat a pomegranate that Littlefinger offers is a symbol of Hades/Persephone, for instance. I wouldn't dismiss subtext so quickly in the fArya plot. Some people analyze subtext and literal text together, and compare them. This is my preferred approach to get a handle on the story and make predictions.

In addition, there is a Doylist reason for Jon's absence of thought, which is useful to explore.

[Colorful Mess]

8 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

He must be amazingly good at suppression, then, because he has so suppressed Sansa that nothing can move him to sympathy for Sansa's plight, not even the news that another sister is being forced into marriage as Sansa was, and not even the news that Sansa's husband murdered his own father.

I imagine it will be useful for Jon to hear it from Sansa herself what she went through. Jon probably can't even fathom it - literally. Let them educate each other about how blind they were. Yes, good, this is the content I signed up for.

[screamin]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Exactly! You'd think Jon would be much more concerned about Sansa's treatment at Tyrion's hands if he had just learned that Tyrion had actually murdered his own father! He isn't, though. He couldn't care less about what the fact that Tyrion murdered his father means for what he may have done to Sansa. He just...can't be bothered. It's pretty cold.

Er... correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that by the time Tyrion murdered his father, Sansa had long since disappeared into thin air, accused of having helped murder Joffrey and gotten away with it despite the large price on her head, while Tyrion languished in prison. Considering that Sansa had been resourceful enough to escape her Lannister victimization and so had already shown herself NOT as helpless as you picture her, and given that Tyrion had freely confided to Jon the brutality of Tywin's upbringing of him and the fact that Jon would be the first to agree that both Joffrey and Tywin needed killing, I can't see why Jon would conclude that the fact that he'd apparently snapped and killed two objectively HORRIBLE people meant that A) Tyrion MUST retroactively have been torturing Sansa all along! and B) Jon is totally okay with that! If you think Jon believed Tyrion tortured Sansa and WAS totally okay with that, again, you seem to have a far worse view of Jon's character than I do.

Quote

Sansa's stint as a bastard has cured her of her snobbish attitude towards Jon (it hasn't, she still thinks that Jon is "only her half-brother").

Just for kicks and giggles, go to Google Books and search ASOIAF for the phrase "his bastard brother." You'll find that Bran has thought of Jon with exactly that phrase multiple times, as late as A Clash of Kings. Does that mean all Bran's affection expressed for Jon is invalidated because he thought of Jon that way? IMO, it's a little more complicated.

Quote

For two characters who are related and who grew up as siblings, they really have very little to do with each other. I don't see any mutual hatred, but they certainly don't care about each other:

ITA that they indeed had very little to do with each other growing up, but I never argued otherwise, so I don't see the point of wasting words about it. I think a person who includes her brother in her prayers DOES care about him. You disagree, and that's fine, but arguing further about it is unlikely to convince either of us and has nothing to do with the endgame. Why not tell me what you think of my ideas about Sansa in the Vale, which DOES have to do with the endgame?

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's not going to affect the endgame. That's the point. Jon will be doing his own thing and Sansa will be doing hers and never the twain shall meet.  If they do meet, and if the show is any hint, it could be Sansa opposing Jon as KITN under LF's influence. Or Jon sending Sansa a message asking for food once she gets control of the Vale. That's about the extent of the Jon-Sansa storylines I can see in the series. GRRM has not invested in their relationship and has no interest in doing so - he is busy writing Jon dying for Arya.

 

Exactly.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'm talking about a future prediction for how Jon might feel toward Sansa, AFTER he's already met with her - evidence of past thoughts doesn't appear to address this. 

What do you mean? We know they're indifferent towards each other from their thoughts. There's no reason that is likely to change.

Quote

Sansa refusing to eat a pomegranate that Littlefinger offers is a symbol of Hades/Persephone, for instance. I wouldn't dismiss subtext so quickly in the fArya plot.

If you have to resort to invoking vague claims of "subtext" like mythological references to support your argument, that's an implicit admission that there's nothing in the text itself to support your argument. @anamika put forward ample evidence that the Ramsay plot is entirely about Jon and Arya's relationship and is meant to demonstrate Jon's great love for Arya (in contrast to his lack of concern for Sansa). If "subtext" is all you got, then you got nothing.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

I imagine it will be useful for Jon to hear it from Sansa herself what she went through. Jon probably can't even fathom it - literally. Let them educate each other about how blind they were. 

The thing is that Jon isn't blind. Just like Robb and Cat, he knows enough about Tyrion and Sansa to know that Sansa would be married off against her will and raped. He knows that Tyrion's an ugly dwarf who's a member of an enemy house, and that Sansa was married to him as a hostage. And none of this gives him any pause or causes him to revise his opinion of the man he considered a friend. He's not blind to what she suffered, but he sure is indifferent.

And Sansa isn't blind when it comes to Jon, either. She knows that it must have hurt for Jon to always hear her call him half-brother, and that it sucks to be a bastard. She just doesn't think about what that means for Jon, because she doesn't care enough about him to bother. Sansa can be compassionate when it suits her, but she has never extended that compassion to Jon, not out of blindness but out of indifference.

51 minutes ago, screamin said:

Er... correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that by the time Tyrion murdered his father, Sansa had long since disappeared into thin air,

So? Jon already knows that Sansa was married off against her will to an enemy of the family and probably raped by someone who once claimed to be Jon's friend, and none of that produced any sort of emotional reaction in him or led him to revise his opinion of said friend. 

Quote

Just for kicks and giggles, go to Google Books and search ASOIAF for the phrase "his bastard brother." You'll find that Bran has thought of Jon with exactly that phrase multiple times, as late as A Clash of Kings. Does that mean all Bran's affection expressed for Jon is invalidated because he thought of Jon that way? IMO, it's a little more complicated.

The quote from AFFC is that when Sansa is thinking about how it would be sweet to see Jon again, she thinks "he was only her half-brother, but still..." and then thinks that with Bran, Rickon and Robb dead, Jon's the only brother she has left. In context, it suggests that if Bran, Rickon and/or Robb were still alive, Sansa wouldn't care about Jon at all...which sounds about right, given what we see of their relationship in ASOIAF.

Quote

Why not tell me what you think of my ideas about Sansa in the Vale, which DOES have to do with the endgame?

Fair enough. I'm not the only one who thinks that something horrible is going to happen at the tourney. Sansa in the TWOW Alayne chapter is strolling around thinking about how happy she is and how clever she is for having planned the tourney. The last time Sansa was this happy in the books was when she thought she'd be marrying Willas Tyrell, and we all know how that turned out. I don't know what exactly will happen, but it's going to be bad. GRRM has set a lot of traps for LF and Sansa: Sweetrobin's suspicion of Harry the Heir, Myranda's jealousy, Lyn Corbray's resentment of LF, and of course Ser Shadrich skulking about. It's just a matter of which one he's going to spring. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[Sunshinegal]

Looking at the discussion above, I'm now convinced that Jon and Sansa will reunite.  But it is not a Jonsa thing.  Jon and Sansa have a distant relationship and do not think about the other sibling that much.  They go a long period of time without thinking of each other.  Both Jon and Sansa have a closer relationship with Robb and Bran then they do with each other.  Jon has a very close relationship with Arya and Sansa and Arya's relationship is fraught.  So the first Stark reunion will happen between the siblings that are the most distant.  I think Jon and Sansa are neutral towards each other.  They don't like each other or think about it each other, but they don't hate each other either. 

[Advance35]

Well as someone that doesn't care about Jon (unflavored oatmeal is more dynamic) and thinks the North and a majority of it's characters (The Nights Watch, Bran, Arya, The Reed's) are all uninspired, colorless and dull, I do think Jon and Sansa will meet again.

In CoK Sansa laments that she wishes someone would cut off Janos Slynts head but nobody will because there are no heroes, 3 books later, the secret prince of the story cuts off said villains head.  I assume Sansa will be saved from something unfortunate by Jon and evolve into a cheerleader, eventually.

That and when he is brought back and puts on his heroes cape, his heroism is going to lead him to the closest food source, House Aryn and The Vale.  Though I don't think Sansa will head North, my money says she stays in the Vale even after she meets Jon again.

I assume when Jon and Arya meet again, they'll hug, cry, blah blah blah, yakity smakity.  A POV Chapter or two where they talk "needle" and possibly practice sword fighting, all very trite and mundane, then the March to endgame will move on and the focus with regards to Jon's character, will be his growing relationship with Dany.

[Eyes High]

A discussion in the S8 speculation thread that really belongs here concerns Stark succession.

A few posters on other boards have observed that in the Targ histories, non-Targ-looking heirs somehow manage to get axed from succession, leaving the line of succession to be carried on by their Targ-looking relatives. There are a few examples of this: Baelor Breakspear, Duncan Targaryen, Rhaenyra's Velaryon kids, Valarr Targaryen, Daeron Targaryen (Baelor's brother), etc. So whoever becomes the head of house charged with succession has always had the distinct Targ look, even if they may marry non-Targs (as Maekar, Aegon V, and other Targs have). As another poster put it, I guess you could say that the Targ head of house is always "on brand" (silver/gold hair, purple eyes).

Other great houses seem to have their own "brand" as well. The Starks have a distinctive house look, having brown hair (sometimes depicted in official artwork as black, but whatever), grey eyes, and long faces. The Stark look is apparently so distinctive that Craster instantly realizes that Jon Snow is a Stark just by looking at him. The Stark look is also awfully persistent, because the Karstark house--which broke off from House Stark a thousand years before the events of ASOIAF--also has members with long faces and brown hair. House Tully also seems to have a distinctive look: auburn hair and blue eyes. And then of course you have House Lannister, where blonde hair goes back hundreds of year, and green eyes also seem to be a key feature.

With respect to the endgame, given what GRRM did with the Targs--barring non-Targ-looking Targs from succession--some have predicted that he'll do the same thing with the Starks: the Tully-looking Starks will not carry on the Stark name. In fact, GRRM has already gone some ways towards making this happen. Robb is dead without issue. Bran cannot have children. Rickon is out of the picture (either because he dies as he did in the show or because he fails to have legitimate children). If the show is to believed, Jon is a legitimate Targ whose children with Dany will be legitimate Targs as well. That leaves Tully-looking Sansa and Stark-looking Arya. Now, of course, applying real world genetics, nothing would stop Sansa from having Stark-looking kids (being 50% Stark herself), but GRRM places such weight on the "brand" of each house that it seems likely that he'll act to ensure that whoever carries on the Stark name--which Arya can do, provided she marries down--will have the Stark look.

If you accept that Arya will continue the Stark line and Stark look by having Stark-looking children, that throws an interesting wrinkle into Gendry and Arya's prospects. Robert Baratheon's genes--and Baratheon genes in general--seem to trump those of the other parent in offspring: all of Robert Baratheon's offspring in the books have black hair and blue eyes. Shireen also has black hair and blue eyes. So it stands to reason that any children Arya had with Gendry would also have black hair and blue eyes. If GRRM is going to make Arya the standard bearer for the next generation of Starks and preserve the Stark look, she can't marry Gendry.

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If you have to resort to invoking vague claims of "subtext" like mythological references to support your argument, that's an implicit admission that there's nothing in the text itself to support your argument. @anamika put forward ample evidence that the Ramsay plot is entirely about Jon and Arya's relationship and is meant to demonstrate Jon's great love for Arya (in contrast to his lack of concern for Sansa). If "subtext" is all you got, then you got nothing.

No one is saying that when Jon thinks of Arya he's thinking of Sansa. The subtext is for making predictions about what will happen in the future. Like serving cow brains at the Red Wedding = bad omen. Future prediction: Sansa not eating the pomegranate = she'll escape his clutches.

So when Jon thinks Arya shows up on his doorstep = it's Alys instead. Alys has a mixture of traits like Arya and Sansa. Ergo, Sansa may arrive at the Wall, or Jon and Sansa may meet up in the future under similar circumstances.

If we can't analyze subtext, then no one can say that there is Jaime/Brienne sexual tension, or that there is Jon/Dany foreshadowing that they will meet in the future.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that gets a sense of foreboding in the Alayne Wind's chapter. But that also involves reading the subtext. Too happy = bad omen.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Sunshinegal]

I think that hanging onto Arya being the Stark of Winterfell because she has the "Stark look" is actually pretty thin.  In the past the Starks and Targareyens (and Lannisters and Baratheons) had a specific brand.  But the brand already changed for both the Targareyens and the Starks doing Robert's Rebellion.  During Robert's Rebellion both Jon and Robb were conceived.  The brand already changed for both Targareyen and Stark.  It seems that people really want Arya to be the ruler of the North and not Sansa.  Now it is possible that Arya could be the ruler instead of Sansa but I need a better explanation instead of Arya looks like a Stark and Sansa doesn't.  And it is still possible that either Arya or Sansa (or both) can die doing the wars.  And GRMM eliminated Robb and Bran as providing heirs to House Stark (and the show eliminated Rickon) but that might not be because of the "Tully look".  It could be that they are eliminating the male heirs so that the females can inherit.  That is just as possible since the only two Starks who can provide heirs are the females -- Sansa & Arya.  We already have Cersei who is queen at the moment and her competitor is Dany who thinks that she is the last Targareyen fighting for the Iron Throne.  And we have Yara in the Iron Islands who is the only person to provide heirs to House Greyjoy.  And Brienne is the sole heir to Tarth and she can still have children if she wants to.  I think the endgame is that a Dorne style succession is possible for all of Westeros and not just Dorne.  GRMM writes many strong women who all have different strengths.  Even though Westeros does not seem to be a feminist paradise, that might change after the Long Night.  I'm not saying that Westeros would embrace equality but female inheritance might be more acceptable. 

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The thing is that Jon isn't blind. Just like Robb and Cat, he knows enough about Tyrion and Sansa to know that Sansa would be married off against her will and raped. He knows that Tyrion's an ugly dwarf who's a member of an enemy house, and that Sansa was married to him as a hostage. And none of this gives him any pause or causes him to revise his opinion of the man he considered a friend. He's not blind to what she suffered, but he sure is indifferent.

And Sansa isn't blind when it comes to Jon, either. She knows that it must have hurt for Jon to always hear her call him half-brother, and that it sucks to be a bastard. She just doesn't think about what that means for Jon, because she doesn't care enough about him to bother. Sansa can be compassionate when it suits her, but she has never extended that compassion to Jon, not out of blindness but out of indifference.

I think he is blind to what she went through to some degree. He doesn't know the depth of how it affected her emotionally, and that's because they weren't very close anyway. He may know the major plot points but again even that is conjecture? I still think it is the author making a conscious choice to withhold thoughts to set up a plot twist. If he was thinking of Sansa's plight as much as he was thinking of Arya's, it might give away that they will meet in the future. Furthermore, there was a reason these two never had a good-bye scene as everyone was leaving Winterfell. Their relationship is a blank slate and we're left trying to piece it together on discussion boards. 

The idea that Jon would continue to be indifferent after reuniting with her makes zero sense to me. The idea that Jon doesn't care about Sansa at all is hyperbolic (because he does worry about her in King's Landing). This is why to continue with the indifference, one would have to conclude that they would meet, discuss all the crazy stuff that happened to them, and then go about their business and never think of each other again. Especially if he thinks she's his only family left - that makes even less sense.  Or that he would never see Sansa at all ever again. It's really difficult to argue for these points in light of the fact that Sansa/Jon meeting is show canon.Thinking about how GRRM would get to a similar place in the novels is really basic. Get character from point A to point B. 

Edited April 12, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

A discussion in the S8 speculation thread that really belongs here concerns Stark succession.

A few posters on other boards have observed that in the Targ histories, non-Targ-looking heirs somehow manage to get axed from succession, leaving the line of succession to be carried on by their Targ-looking relatives. There are a few examples of this: Baelor Breakspear, Duncan Targaryen, Rhaenyra's Velaryon kids, Valarr Targaryen, Daeron Targaryen (Baelor's brother), etc. So whoever becomes the head of house charged with succession has always had the distinct Targ look, even if they may marry non-Targs (as Maekar, Aegon V, and other Targs have). As another poster put it, I guess you could say that the Targ head of house is always "on brand" (silver/gold hair, purple eyes).

Other great houses seem to have their own "brand" as well. The Starks have a distinctive house look, having brown hair (sometimes depicted in official artwork as black, but whatever), grey eyes, and long faces. The Stark look is apparently so distinctive that Craster instantly realizes that Jon Snow is a Stark just by looking at him. The Stark look is also awfully persistent, because the Karstark house--which broke off from House Stark a thousand years before the events of ASOIAF--also has members with long faces and brown hair. House Tully also seems to have a distinctive look: auburn hair and blue eyes. And then of course you have House Lannister, where blonde hair goes back hundreds of year, and green eyes also seem to be a key feature.

With respect to the endgame, given what GRRM did with the Targs--barring non-Targ-looking Targs from succession--some have predicted that he'll do the same thing with the Starks: the Tully-looking Starks will not carry on the Stark name. In fact, GRRM has already gone some ways towards making this happen. Robb is dead without issue. Bran cannot have children. Rickon is out of the picture (either because he dies as he did in the show or because he fails to have legitimate children). If the show is to believed, Jon is a legitimate Targ whose children with Dany will be legitimate Targs as well. That leaves Tully-looking Sansa and Stark-looking Arya. Now, of course, applying real world genetics, nothing would stop Sansa from having Stark-looking kids (being 50% Stark herself), but GRRM places such weight on the "brand" of each house that it seems likely that he'll act to ensure that whoever carries on the Stark name--which Arya can do, provided she marries down--will have the Stark look.

If you accept that Arya will continue the Stark line and Stark look by having Stark-looking children, that throws an interesting wrinkle into Gendry and Arya's prospects. Robert Baratheon's genes--and Baratheon genes in general--seem to trump those of the other parent in offspring: all of Robert Baratheon's offspring in the books have black hair and blue eyes. Shireen also has black hair and blue eyes. So it stands to reason that any children Arya had with Gendry would also have black hair and blue eyes. If GRRM is going to make Arya the standard bearer for the next generation of Starks and preserve the Stark look, she can't marry Gendry.

I don't remember there ever was a Stark/Baratheon marriage?  (I didn't find any mention of one, or a description of possible descendants, after a rapid check.)

Stark mostly allied with Northern Houses. There is seemingly no data about the descendants of the Stark/Aryn or Stark/Royce marriages. The Stark/Tully union gave at least one kid with the Stark looks. The Targ/Stark union gave a kid with the Stark looks. So nothing prevents the Stark looks to be preserved in case of exogamy. Moreover, since GRRM does as he likes with genetics and in absence of a precedent, nothing prevents either the old Stark seed to be as strong as the old Baratheon seed, and a Stark/Baratheon marriage to give at least an heir with the Stark looks.

There is also a fail in your logic since genetically speaking, Jon is Sansa. He's a "legitimate Targ"...who took it all after his mother and doesn't have one Targ physical trait, just like she's a legitimate Stark who took all after her mother and doesn't have one Stark physical trait. Why would it be OK for Jon, then, to carry the Targaryen name and legacy whereas he doesn't have the right looks, and not for Sansa, who is in exactly the same situation? Especially since Targ looks + non Targ looks = not 100% Targ looks whereas Stark looks + non Stark looks = sometimes 100% Stark looks.

You also assume that Jon will keep the name Targaryen, I think it's jumping the gun. He might want to honor the man who raised him and take the name Stark. After portmanteaux like Karstark (or even Hodor) paved the way, I wouldn't discard the possibility of a mash-up new name for Jon and Dany's "dynasty" if there is one. It would be a way of leaving the past behind.

Finally, two points. Some old and prestigious Houses don't have a "brand", like House Dayne where some have violet eyes, some don't, some have blond and other black hair. In the Free Cities, some individuals have Valyrian traits, which tends to support the existence of a gene pool in this universe.

Arya and Gendry might not end up married, but if they don't it won't be for Arya to become a broodmare in order to "preserve the Stark line/looks". There's no need for this. There are Jon and Sansa, too.

And honestly, primary importance given to the "right genetic looks" is a bit too close to unsavory ideologies touting "pure blood/pure race" for my taste. Considering GRRM's ideas, I tend to believe that "the seed is strong" was more of a trick to expose the illegitimacy of Cersei's children in a universe with no DNA test, than a strict philosophy.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

No one is saying that when Jon thinks of Arya he's thinking of Sansa. The subtext is for making predictions about what will happen in the future. Like serving cow brains at the Red Wedding = bad omen. Future prediction: Sansa not eating the pomegranate = she'll escape his clutches.

 

One doesn't need Sansa's pomegranate consumption habits to predict that Sansa will outlive Littlefinger.

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So when Jon thinks Arya shows up on his doorstep = it's Alys instead. Alys has a mixture of traits like Arya and Sansa. 

Nothing about Alys evokes Sansa for Jon. She reminds him of Arya, not only physically (since she shares Alys' colouring) but also when she smiles in response to Jon asking her if she's scared.

I don't think the reader would see anything of Sansa in Alys, either, other than her circumstances. She's fierce, blunt, tough-minded, and gamely lets Jon marry her off to a wildling, even if it's clear she's not thrilled at the match (she wryly comments that she should have charmed Robb years ago). Can you imagine Sansa being married off to a wildling and saying "Let him be scared of me?" Yeah, me neither. 

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If we can't analyze subtext, then no one can say that there is Jaime/Brienne sexual tension, or that there is Jon/Dany foreshadowing that they will meet in the future.

That's the thing, though. You don't need subtext with Jaime and Brienne. There is textual evidence of Jaime and Brienne's sexual tension: Jaime getting hard at the sight of naked Brienne and Brienne thinking that Jaime looks like a god is text, not subtext. There is textual evidence that Jon loves Arya and is relatively indifferent to Sansa.

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I'm glad I'm not the only one that gets a sense of foreboding in the Alayne Wind's chapter. But that also involves reading the subtext. Too happy = bad omen.

Subtext is fine, but it has to be based on something in the text. In ASOIAF there's a discernible pattern of characters getting smacked down or brutally killed whenever things seem to be going too well for them. Going off that pattern, things are going to go south for Sansa imminently.

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

I still think it is the author making a conscious choice to withhold thoughts to set up a plot twist. If he was thinking of Sansa's plight as much as he was thinking of Arya's, it might give away that they will meet in the future.

Subtext has to be based on something, though, not the absence of something. You used the example of Jaime/Brienne. Well, we know Jaime and Brienne's relationship is significant to the story because they had important interactions, because they interact in a way that suggests strong mutual feelings and because they think about each other in the other's absence. If they never interacted, never or rarely thought about each other and seemed indifferent to each other, no readers would attach any significance to their relationship, but because they obviously mean a great deal to each other as is made explicitly clear in the text, readers assume that the relationship is and will be important. There is a "there" there, as you yourself admit since you use the example of Jaime/Brienne.

With Jon and Sansa, it's the opposite situation. There is no "there" there. They had no interactions in AGOT before Jon's departure (unlike with Bran, Robb, and Arya), they rarely think of each other and when they do it's not with any warmth or fondness, and there is an obvious and logical reason for their distant relationship (Sansa never let Jon forget he was a bastard, and Jon resented her for it). Contrast this with Jon and Arya, who did have meaningful interactions in AGOT, who do often think of each other with great love, and whose love drives both of their arcs (Jon dying for Arya, Arya refusing to throw away her Arya Stark identity because of Needle).

When GRRM wants readers to see a relationship as important, he lets them know. Jon and Arya's relationship is important. Jon and Sansa's isn't.

...If you want to talk about Sansa's relationships and subtext, that conversation probably begins and ends with the Hound.

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Furthermore, there was a reason these two never had a good-bye scene as everyone was leaving Winterfell. 

Yes, and that reason is that Jon and Sansa don't care for each other all that much. Jon only grudgingly misses Sansa, and Jon matters so little to Sansa that Sansa never stops to think that Jon never bothered to say goodbye to her.

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Their relationship is a blank slate and we're left trying to piece it together on discussion boards.

It's not a mysterious "blank slate" or some tantalizing puzzle for the fandom. It's no more and no less than exactly what it appears to be: a distant, indifferent relationship fostered by Sansa's snobbery and Jon's resentment of same that doesn't mean much to either of them. It's perfectly clear how Jon and Sansa feel about each other, why they feel that way, and why they have no connection to each other, unlike Jon and Arya.

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It's really difficult to argue for these points in light of the fact that Sansa/Jon meeting is show canon.

GRRM has complained that he doesn't know what D&D are doing with Sansa's storyline, so the show can't be seen as predictive of Sansa's ASOIAF plotline post-ADWD, except to the extent that she will outsmart and outlive Littlefinger somehow, which most readers kind of figured anyway.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Eyes High

[glowbug]

Has the show not put an end to the Jonsa speculation? There is no time for the show to build a foundation for a future Jon/Sansa relationship. They spent a season building up Jon and Dany, and even that was rushed with more episodes and less non-romantic plot to deal with than season 8. How is Jon supposed to fall out of love with Dany and develop romantic feelings for Sansa all while saving the world from the WW and the army of the dead (including an undead dragon), fighting Euron/Cersei/Golden Company, dealing with his angst over his parentage, and also dealing with the fact that he’s going to be a father (because if boatsex baby doesn’t happen then that really is Chekhov’s gun not going off)? Plus the series has to tie up all the other characters’ storylines as well. 

I think Jon and Sansa care about each other in a limited way in the books. They’re siblings who didn’t get along as children but they’re still siblings (psychologically, the way that matters most). I’m sure they’d be happy to see each other after everything that has happened to them, and they probably wish each other well, but there is no suggestion that their relationship is going to be anything significant. I do think there is foreshadowing and symbolism in the series, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar as Freud said. Overanalysis has led to several disproven (by the show) theories like Varys the merman and Tyrion the secret Targaryen bastard (and this theory had way more evidence and logic than the Jonsa one, IMO). 

I’m just happy that it seems almost impossible that Jon will end up romantically tied to either of his sister cousins. I realize that he and Dany are more closely related by blood but that creeps me out so much less than him ending up with anyone he believed for all his formative years was his sibling. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 minute ago, glowbug said:

Has the show not put an end to the Jonsa speculation?

IIRC, the actors denied quite clearly there was anything romantic. 

[Sunshinegal]

21 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't remember there ever was a Stark/Baratheon marriage?  (I didn't find any mention of one, or a description of possible descendants, after a rapid check.)

Stark mostly allied with Northern Houses. There is seemingly no data about the descendants of the Stark/Aryn or Stark/Royce marriages. The Stark/Tully union gave at least one kid with the Stark looks. The Targ/Stark union gave a kid with the Stark looks. So nothing prevents the Stark looks to be preserved in case of exogamy. Moreover, since GRRM does as he likes with genetics and in absence of a precedent, nothing prevents either the old Stark seed to be as strong as the old Baratheon seed, and a Stark/Baratheon marriage to give at least an heir with the Stark looks.

There is also a fail in your logic since genetically speaking, Jon is Sansa. He's a "legitimate Targ"...who took it all after his mother and doesn't have one Targ physical trait, just like she's a legitimate Stark who took all after her mother and doesn't have one Stark physical trait. Why would it be OK for Jon, then, to carry the Targaryen name and legacy whereas he doesn't have the right looks, and not for Sansa, who is in exactly the same situation? Especially since Targ looks + non Targ looks = not 100% Targ looks whereas Stark looks + non Stark looks = sometimes 100% Stark looks.

You also assume that Jon will keep the name Targaryen, I think it's jumping the gun. He might want to honor the man who raised him and take the name Stark. After portmanteaux like Karstark (or even Hodor) paved the way, I wouldn't discard the possibility of a mash-up new name for Jon and Dany's "dynasty" if there is one. It would be a way of leaving the past behind.

Finally, two points. Some old and prestigious Houses don't have a "brand", like House Dayne where some have violet eyes, some don't, some have blond and other black hair. In the Free Cities, some individuals have Valyrian traits, which tends to support the existence of a gene pool in this universe.

Arya and Gendry might not end up married, but if they don't it won't be for Arya to become a broodmare in order to "preserve the Stark line/looks". There's no need for this. There are Jon and Sansa, too.

And honestly, primary importance given to the "right genetic looks" is a bit too close to unsavory ideologies touting "pure blood/pure race" for my taste. Considering GRRM's ideas, I tend to believe that "the seed is strong" was more of a trick to expose the illegitimacy of Cersei's children in a universe with no DNA test, than a strict philosophy.

I agree that if Jon is a Targareyen who looks his mother and he is able to have a child (heavily implied in season 7) than the same reasoning can apply to Sansa who is a Stark who looks like her mother and who might have a child. 

I definitely agree about the unsavory idealogies touting "pure blood/pure race".  Anything relating to eugenics should be in a trash heap.  Considering that in the real world in the early 20th century a lot of women who were not WASPs were sterilized without their knowledge.  And Hitler when he was killing Jewish people found inspiration from American scientists promoting eugenics.

18 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Has the show not put an end to the Jonsa speculation? There is no time for the show to build a foundation for a future Jon/Sansa relationship. They spent a season building up Jon and Dany, and even that was rushed with more episodes and less non-romantic plot to deal with than season 8. How is Jon supposed to fall out of love with Dany and develop romantic feelings for Sansa all while saving the world from the WW and the army of the dead (including an undead dragon), fighting Euron/Cersei/Golden Company, dealing with his angst over his parentage, and also dealing with the fact that he’s going to be a father (because if boatsex baby doesn’t happen then that really is Chekhov’s gun not going off)? Plus the series has to tie up all the other characters’ storylines as well. 

I think Jon and Sansa care about each other in a limited way in the books. They’re siblings who didn’t get along as children but they’re still siblings (psychologically, the way that matters most). I’m sure they’d be happy to see each other after everything that has happened to them, and they probably wish each other well, but there is no suggestion that their relationship is going to be anything significant. I do think there is foreshadowing and symbolism in the series, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar as Freud said. Overanalysis has led to several disproven (by the show) theories like Varys the merman and Tyrion the secret Targaryen bastard (and this theory had way more evidence and logic than the Jonsa one, IMO). 

I’m just happy that it seems almost impossible that Jon will end up romantically tied to either of his sister cousins. I realize that he and Dany are more closely related by blood but that creeps me out so much less than him ending up with anyone he believed for all his formative years was his sibling. 

I thought the Jonsa speculation went away when they were doing the Jon-Dany romance.  I am glad that he isn't romantically tied to his sister-cousins either. 

[GrailKing]

22 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

IIRC, the actors denied quite clearly there was anything romantic. 

I don't care what the actors state, they are payed or expected to throw chaff.

I do remember Sophie saying to the runners or Cogman something like don't go there .

All I saw was at least some real sincere caring by Jon and Sansa of the other's safety and combining their skills, I  saw no romantic love, but then again Ned and Cat did not love or knew each other when they did hook up.

The show is putting up parallels between Cat, Ned and Jon, Sansa also add that Jon may have Danny's  child as a 3rd person, just like Cat, Ned and baby Jon.

[bubble sparkly]

With Ned and Cat though, they were basically forced to marry each other by the marriage pact their father’s made. I cannot see any situation where someone would force Jon and Sansa to marry.

Furthermore, since Jon and Sansa are not in love and have shown no sexual attraction to each other, I would think it’s incredibly unlikely that they would suddenly start thinking of each other romantically and thus want to marry for love.

If Dany died and left Jon with a baby, Jon would presumably be King of the 7 kingdoms and Sansa probably Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North. They would have no political reason to marry and Jon’s advisors would surely be encouraging him to forge a marriage alliance with a different powerful family.

[GrailKing]

22 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

With Ned and Cat though, they were basically forced to marry each other by the marriage pact their father’s made. I cannot see any situation where someone would force Jon and Sansa to marry.

Furthermore, since Jon and Sansa are not in love and have shown no sexual attraction to each other, I would think it’s incredibly unlikely that they would suddenly start thinking of each other romantically and thus want to marry for love.

If Dany died and left Jon with a baby, Jon would presumably be King of the 7 kingdoms and Sansa probably Lady of Winterfell and Warden of the North. They would have no political reason to marry and Jon’s advisors would surely be encouraging him to forge a marriage alliance with a different powerful family.

The Northern Lords may force it, and Arya could end up as LOWF. But as I said I see nothing more than family caring, If Danny dies Jon could still wind up with Sansa and they bring up his child together and if love does happen can add more. There was no sexual attraction between Ned and Cat either.

As I said I don't see it happening, but the parallels are still there.

[Happy Harpy]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

As I said I don't see it happening, but the parallels are still there.

Ned and Catelyn didn't grow up to adulthood believing they were siblings (and weren't Targaryens). There is no parallel.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[GraceK]

Why would the Northern lords force an incestous marriage? That doesn’t even make sense. Assuming there any northern families left, and assuming that Jon is in fact Endgame King of the seven Kingdoms, ( or whatever is left over) they would have no authority to force Jon to do anything. At all. He’s King.  And if Sansa is endgame Lady of Winterfell, or Queen in the North, any prominent Northern families would be wanting their own sons to marry her and be King Of the North or whatever. This idea of outside influences forcing Sansa and Jon into marriage is ridiculous.

and to be honest, I don’t have high expectations that Sansa even survives anyway. And if she does survive, I hope her destiny isn’t to be forcibly married to the person she considers her brother. I mean come on. Can’t she catch a break? She’s had basically no agency of her own at all , especially when it comes to husbands.

Edited April 12, 2018 by GraceK

[GraceK]

Also since most people  seem to take it for granted that Dany will die, im doubling down on the idea that Dany lives baby!!! ?? Instead of breaking the wheel, it’s the Iron Throne that she breaks and a new glorious reign, reminiscent of the Pax Romana begins. Why not?

Edited April 12, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

  But the brand already changed for both the Targareyens and the Starks doing Robert's Rebellion.  During Robert's Rebellion both Jon and Robb were conceived.  The brand already changed for both Targareyen and Stark.

Dany - the known Targaryen, was also conceived during Robert's rebellion, so no, the brand was not changed. And Cat was disappointed that she gave Ned no sons who looked like him - one of the reasons she despised Jon was his appearance.

5 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

 Now it is possible that Arya could be the ruler instead of Sansa but I need a better explanation instead of Arya looks like a Stark and Sansa doesn't. 

Better explanation? While the show has made the North plot about Sansa, in the books GRRM has made it about Arya.  Ramsay marries Arya to hold the North, Northern houses are plotting against the Boltons to free Arya, mountain clans are marching against the Boltons for Arya, Jon is gathering wildlings at the wall to rescue Arya etc.

Now coming to Arya herself. Not only does she have the Stark looks, but she still has her direwolf Nymeria heading North leading hundreds of wolves. GRRM has confirmed that they will play a role in the war against the Others. The wolf is named after a ruler and a conqueror who led her people from destruction. And unlike the show, the direwoves themselves are a big part of who the character is.

Arya is also the most Northern of the children - or the most Stark like - always recalling Ned's words in her chapters. She is similar in personality to northern female characters like Wylla Manderly, Lyanna Mormont, Alys Karstark etc. She has traveled the North with Ned. She also learns from Ned like Jon, Robb and Bran. For ex:

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Whenever her father had condemned a man to death, he did the deed himself with Ice, his greatsword. “If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look him in the face and hear his last words,” she’d heard him tell Robb and Jon once. - (Arya, A Clash of Kings)

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The old gods are dead, she told herself, with Mother and Father and Robb and Bran and Rickon, all dead. A long time ago, she remembered her father saying that when the cold winds blow the lone wolf dies and the pack survives.

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Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. “Know the men who follow you,” she heard him tell Robb once, “and let them know you. Don’t ask your men to die for a stranger.“ (Arya, A Game of Thrones)

 Arya is all about the smallfolk - she is always interacting with them, living among them, working among them. She forms her own wolf pack wherever she goes. She was Arya Underfoot in WF:

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Arya had loved nothing better than to sit at her father’s table and listen to them talk. She had loved listening to the men on the benches too; to freeriders tough as leather, courtly knights and bold young squires, grizzled old men-at-arms. She used to throw snowballs at them and help them steal pies from the kitchen. Their wives gave her scones and she invented names for their babies and played monsters-and-maidens and hide-the-treasure and come-into-my-castle with their children. (Arya, A Game of Thrones)

Arya's skillset currently after her tenure at the house of black and white include:

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She could feel air currents on her skin now. She could find the kitchens by their smell, tell men from women by their scents. She knew Umma and the servants and the acolytes by the pattern of their footfalls, could tell one from the other before they got close enough to smell (but not the waif or the kindly man, who hardly made a sound at all unless they wanted to). The candles burning in the temple had scents as well; even the unscented ones gave off faint wisps of smoke from their wicks. They had as well been shouting, once she had learned to use her nose.

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Poisons and potions were for the afternoons. She had smell and touch and taste to help her, but touch and taste could be perilous when grinding poisons, and with some of the waif’s more toxic concoctions even smell was less than safe. Burned pinky tips and blistered lips became familiar to her, and once she made herself so sick she could not keep down any food for days.

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Supper was for language lessons. The blind girl understood Braavosi and could speak it passably, she had even lost most of her barbaric accent, but the kindly man was not content. He was insisting that she improve her High Valyrian and learn the tongues of Lys and Pentos too.

Furthermore, many of the HoBaW’s lessons focus on Arya controlling her face, emotions, and what she gives away. And then there is the ability to see through deception. Arya is being taught how to tell lies from the truth, even from good liars.

Being able to speak multiple languages is very useful in politics, diplomatic relations, actually. Being perceptive is useful is social relations, politics, and pretty much everything actually.

And controlling what emotions and expressions you display is also very useful. 

She is an excellent horse rider and learned from the Septa and Ned. She can fight. She is smart. She wants to be a Councillor and build things.

And then there is Varys description of fAegon on what it takes to be a king:

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Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.” - (Varys, Kevan, A Dance with Dragons)

Arya has more or less done all of the above. The only difference is that fAegon actually comes across as a spoiled brat and Arya does not.

Arya is also one of the first characters GRRM created for the series, she plays an important role in the original outline and has the most chapters in the books after Tyrion and Jon. GRRM was most concerned for Arya with the lack of the 5 year gap and ended up saying 'If a 12 year old has to conquer the world then so be it' when he could not fit in that gap. I doubt all this is just so that Arya can go west of westeros or play bodyguard/executioner to her sister.

And when it comes to appearances, there's a bit of an ugly duckling story with respect to Arya and Sansa. The pretty, red haired Tully looking Sansa bullies Arya for her Stark appearance - calling her Arya Horseface and ugly. Arya herself feels ugly and has low self-esteem about her appearance - the only two people who call her pretty are the Stark looking Ned and Jon. She is always compared to Lyanna who she resembles in personality and appearance and who turned out to be pretty.

It's funny that Sansa thinks that Arya is a bastard like Jon because she does not look like the rest of the Stark siblings and we have this sad line in the books:

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Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father’s face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her. 

It must have hurt Jon to answer that question and yet he puts that aside to comfort Arya.

The Starks are described as rather plain looking while the Tullys stand out as beautiful and good looking. Robb was hot, Jon was not. I remember one rather hilarious thread on Westeros.org, just after the show came out, debating Jon's appearance in the books and whether he was good looking or not - because GRRM never really describes him other than saying that he had the Stark look.

So could GRRM end the series by putting the Tully looking Sansa, who bullied her sister because she had the Stark looks, betrayed her family for selfish reasons and lost her wolf because of her lack of family loyalty, in charge of Winterfell? It's possible and could be a bittersweet ending for the North.  It's also possible that he could put Arya in charge because she has what it takes to rule the North.

If you feel that GRRM has written for Sansa to rule the North in the books, then maybe you can give an explanation of why she is more capable than Arya, Bran and Jon to rule the North?

3 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I definitely agree about the unsavory idealogies touting "pure blood/pure race".  Anything relating to eugenics should be in a trash heap.  Considering that in the real world in the early 20th century a lot of women who were not WASPs were sterilized without their knowledge.  And Hitler when he was killing Jewish people found inspiration from American scientists promoting eugenics.

If the houses having distinct looks makes you uncomfortable, them maybe this is not the fantasy series for you? The series is based on noble families whose characters all have a very specific house look and have special powers because they come from a special blood line. The entire KL plot line where Ned figures out that the Baratheon children were bastards is based on 'The seed is strong'. The Starks all have a set look and magical powers because of their blood line. The Targaryens married each other to preserve their blood line, so that they could control dragons - Dany herself says on the show that 'We were not extraordinary anymore. We were just like everyone else'.

No one is exterminating each other or getting people sterilized because they don't look a certain way in the series - that's just hyperbole. But it is a fact that in the series, each house has a distinct appearance and GRRM tends to underline and focus on these appearances - Arya's Stark appearance made her an underdog in the first book. I believe that by the last book, her Stark appearance will be important in whatever role she plays in the North.

Edited April 13, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

12 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

All these book theories just make me think that GRRM will never finish the books because he has no idea how to get the major players to their endgame lol. Jon has two books to get resurrected and deal with that drama, possibly fight the Boltons and retake Winterfell, get crowned KiTN, reunite with Arya and possibly his other siblings, meet Dany and fall love with her, and join forces with Dany’s crew to take out the WW and Cersei. He will also presumably get told by someone about his true parentage and have some major angst, and maybe hook up with Val prior to meeting Dany.

Meanwhile Dany has two books to deal with the Dothraki situation, sort out Mereen, sail to Westeros, meet Jon and fall in love with him, and join forces with Jon’s crew to fight Cersei and the WW. Oh and I guess fAegon must fit in there as well.

I don't think Daenerys is going to fight Cersei at all. 

Replace Cersei's role in the show story with "Aegon"'s role for the books and it looks much more accurate.

You also forgot dealing with Euronm, Pentos and Volantis. 

That Essosi stuff is all doable if TWOW is Daenerys heavy and Meereen's fate is to be turned into a hole in the ground. 

Also consider that the story moves much faster when POVs are together rather than apart.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

She is always compared to Lyanna who she resembles in personality and appearance and who turned out to be pretty.

The Starks are described as rather plain looking while the Tullys stand out as beautiful and good looking. 

To be fair to the Starks, dark hair/grey eyes is a rather striking colour combination: in writing about the Starks, GRRM probably had Aragorn and Arwen in mind from LOTR, who also had dark hair and grey eyes. Also, Ned's brother Brandon was supposed to be handsome.

Lyanna's beauty is a bit of a moving target, because it seems like all the great houses have gorgeous noblewomen: Cersei, Catelyn, Elia, Ashara, etc. (And in the younger generation you have Myrcella pre-maiming, Arianne, Margaery, Roslin Frey, Sansa, Dany, etc.) Ned says that Lyanna was of "surpassing loveliness" and Arya thinks that "everyone said" that Lyanna was beautiful, but Meera and the "author" of TWOIAF agree that Elia was more beautiful. (Admittedly biased) Kevan admits that Lyanna had a wild beauty but thought she didn't hold a candle to Cersei in her youth. (Also biased) Barristan thinks that his beloved Ashara made Elia look like a "kitchen drab." So if Ashara was much more beautiful than Elia, and Elia much more beautiful than Lyanna, how pretty could Lyanna have really been? 

(I think GRRM is said to have had Elizabeth Taylor in mind when envisioning Ashara Dayne, if that helps...which I guess given the resemblance between Dany and Ashara means that Dany is supposed to look like Elizabeth Taylor circa National Velvet, except blonde.)

 

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Robb was hot, Jon was not. I remember one rather hilarious thread on Westeros.org, just after the show came out, debating Jon's appearance in the books and whether he was good looking or not - because GRRM never really describes him other than saying that he had the Stark look.

Jon in the books is the spitting image of Ned, who is average in the looks department. On the other hand, Jon must have something going for him, because he is constantly getting hit on: Ygritte, Melisandre, Val, etc. Alys Karstark flirts with him at her own wedding feast.

Also, hot parents tend to have hot kids, and both of Jon's parents were hot, so he can't be all that bad.

 

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So could GRRM end the series by putting the Tully looking Sansa, who bullied her sister because she had the Stark looks, betrayed her family for selfish reasons and lost her wolf because of her lack of family loyalty, in charge of Winterfell?

Well, when you put it like that...

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

To be fair to the Starks, dark hair/grey eyes is a rather striking colour combination: in writing about the Starks, GRRM probably had Aragorn and Arwen in mind from LOTR, who also had dark hair and grey eyes. Also, Ned's brother Brandon was supposed to be handsome.

Lyanna's beauty is a bit of a moving target, because it seems like all the great houses have gorgeous noblewomen: Cersei, Catelyn, Elia, Ashara, etc. (And in the younger generation you have Myrcella pre-maiming, Arianne, Margaery, Roslin Frey, Sansa, Dany, etc.) Ned says that Lyanna was of "surpassing loveliness" and Arya thinks that "everyone said" that Lyanna was beautiful, but Meera and the "author" of TWOIAF agree that Elia was more beautiful. (Admittedly biased) Kevan admits that Lyanna had a wild beauty but thought she didn't hold a candle to Cersei in her youth. (Also biased) Barristan thinks that his beloved Ashara made Elia look like a "kitchen drab." So if Ashara was much more beautiful than Elia, and Elia much more beautiful than Lyanna, how pretty could Lyanna have really been? 

(I think GRRM is said to have had Elizabeth Taylor in mind when envisioning Ashara Dayne, if that helps...which I guess given the resemblance between Dany and Ashara means that Dany is supposed to look like Elizabeth Taylor circa National Velvet, except blonde.)

 

Jon in the books is the spitting image of Ned, who is average in the looks department. On the other hand, Jon must have something going for him, because he is constantly getting hit on: Ygritte, Melisandre, Val, etc. Alys Karstark flirts with him at her own wedding feast.

Also, hot parents tend to have hot kids, and both of Jon's parents were hot, so he can't be all that bad.

 

Well, when you put it like that...

Wouldn't Ned be biased too? That's his sister. And Arya was raised in a Stark household.

I think it likely that Lyanna was no Helen of Troy but she was pretty.

Jon likely looks like a better-looking version of Ned Stark. 

Personally, I think he's supposed to be good-looking but not that good-looking. Renly, Rhaegar, Jaime and Loras would all dwarf him. Renly is described as the handsomest man that Sansa's ever seen, Jaime is described as looking like a demi-god and beautiful, Rhaegar is described as making Jaime look like a pig boy and Loras is considered one of the most handsome men in Westeros. Jon would be like a torch to their suns.

Also, it's weird when people put Melisandre in as an example that Jon is good-looking. Melisandre was ready to bed Davos who is described as the plainest dude imaginable. Melisandre doesn't care about looks. 

[anamika]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

On the other hand, Jon must have something going for him, because he is constantly getting hit on: Ygritte, Melisandre, Val, etc. Alys Karstark flirts with him at her own wedding feast.

One of the reasons for why this happens in that thread discussing his appearance was this!

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Bitches love Lord Commanders. Plus he has an albino direwolf, that's the Westeros equivalent of rolling up in some awesome limited edition sportscar. And a Valyrian steel sword, which is like having a watch that shoots lasers. Plus he cut Janos Slynt's head off. He's like if James Bond killed Hitler.

All this just leads to the obvious, that the girls flirt with Jon to make Sam jealous. Nevermind that Sam's not around half the time, they know he's gonna hear about it and finally make his move on them, just as they've dreamed.

?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/54488-adwd-spoilers-is-jon-handsome/

I imagine that having a scar across his face, a valyrian sword on his back and a huge direwolf at his side is rather attractive...

Edited April 13, 2018 by anamika

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, anamika said:

Dany - the known Targaryen, was also conceived during Robert's rebellion, so no, the brand was not changed. And Cat was disappointed that she gave Ned no sons who looked like him - one of the reasons she despised Jon was his appearance.

Better explanation? While the show has made the North plot about Sansa, in the books GRRM has made it about Arya.  Ramsay marries Arya to hold the North, Northern houses are plotting against the Boltons to free Arya, mountain clans are marching against the Boltons for Arya, Jon is gathering wildlings at the wall to rescue Arya etc.

Now coming to Arya herself. Not only does she have the Stark looks, but she still has her direwolf Nymeria heading North leading hundreds of wolves. GRRM has confirmed that they will play a role in the war against the Others. The wolf is named after a ruler and a conqueror who led her people from destruction. And unlike the show, the direwoves themselves are a big part of who the character is.

Arya is also the most Northern of the children - or the most Stark like - always recalling Ned's words in her chapters. She is similar in personality to northern female characters like Wylla Manderly, Lyanna Mormont, Alys Karstark etc. She has traveled the North with Ned. She also learns from Ned like Jon, Robb and Bran. For ex:

 Arya is all about the smallfolk - she is always interacting with them, living among them, working among them. She forms her own wolf pack wherever she goes. She was Arya Underfoot in WF:

Arya's skillset currently after her tenure at the house of black and white include:

Furthermore, many of the HoBaW’s lessons focus on Arya controlling her face, emotions, and what she gives away. And then there is the ability to see through deception. Arya is being taught how to tell lies from the truth, even from good liars.

Being able to speak multiple languages is very useful in politics, diplomatic relations, actually. Being perceptive is useful is social relations, politics, and pretty much everything actually.

And controlling what emotions and expressions you display is also very useful. 

She is an excellent horse rider and learned from the Septa and Ned. She can fight. She is smart. She wants to be a Councillor and build things.

And then there is Varys description of fAegon on what it takes to be a king:

Arya has more or less done all of the above. The only difference is that fAegon actually comes across as a spoiled brat and Arya does not.

And when it comes to appearances, there's a bit of an ugly duckling story with respect to Arya and Sansa. The pretty, red haired Tully looking Sansa bullies Arya for her Stark appearance - calling her Arya Horseface and ugly. Arya herself feels ugly and has low self-esteem about her appearance - the only two people who call her pretty are the Stark looking Ned and Jon. She is always compared to Lyanna who she resembles in personality and appearance and who turned out to be pretty.

The Starks are described as rather plain looking while the Tullys stand out as beautiful and good looking. Robb was hot, Jon was not. I remember one rather hilarious thread on Westeros.org, just after the show came out, debating Jon's appearance in the books and whether he was good looking or not - because GRRM never really describes him other than saying that he had the Stark look.

So could GRRM end the series by putting the Tully looking Sansa, who bullied her sister because she had the Stark looks, betrayed her family for selfish reasons and lost her wolf because of her lack of family loyalty, in charge of Winterfell? It's possible and could be a bittersweet ending for the North.  It's also possible that he could put Arya in charge because she has what it takes to rule the North.

If you feel that GRRM has written for Sansa to rule the North in the books, then maybe you can give an explanation of why she is more capable than Arya, Bran and Jon to rule the North?

If these ideas make you uncomfortable, them maybe this is not fantasy series for you? The series is based on noble families whose characters all have a very specific house look and have special powers because they come from a special blood line. The entire KL plot line where Ned figures out that the Baratheon children were bastards is based on 'The seed is strong'. The Starks all have a set look and magical powers because of their blood line. The Targaryens married each other to preserve their blood line, so that they could control dragons - Dany herself says on the show that 'We were not extraordinary anymore. We were just like everyone else'.

No one is exterminating each other or getting people sterilized because they don't look a certain way in the series - that's just hyperbole. But it is a fact that in the series, each house has a distinct appearance and GRRM tends to underline and focus on these appearances - Arya's Stark appearance made her an underdog in the first book. I believe that by the last book, her Stark appearance will be important in whatever role she plays in the North.

I just said give me a better explanation than having Arya look like a Stark about her being the Lady of Winterfell.  I also think that the argument based on either Arya's and Sansa's looks is weak.  I'm ok with any other argument, just not the one based on their looks.  I never said that I think Sansa is a better ruler than any of her siblings, I just said give me a better explanation that is not based on the perceived Stark brand. 

Of course I theorize that Arya would rule the Riverlands and not the North.  She has spent two books in the Riverlands.  Nymeria has spent most of her time in the Riverlands and is still there.  The Brotherhood without Borders and Lady Stoneheart are looking for her in the Riverlands.  Arya's story in the Riverlands is just as important as her story in the North.  The people in the North are basing their decisions on fake Arya (Jeyne) while in the Riverlands people know what Arya looks like and are looking for her.  Ramsey and Melisandre doesn't know what Arya looks like but the Brotherhood and Lady Stoneheart does.  I speculate that Arya's story is not done in the Riverlands and I think that she would reunite with Nymeria in the Riverlands instead of the North.  I also speculate that Arya will meet Lady Stoneheart but that is a guess.  And the Riverlands is just as much of Arya's legacy as the North.  Of course that depends on what happens to Edmure and his kid whose fates are uncertain and I could be wrong.

I'm not uncomfortable with this fantasy series.  I'm uncomfortable that people on threads are so hung up on blood purity and looks and use it as an argument on who might rule the North.  Somebody else mentioned blood purity and I agreed with them and gave some historical references.  I know that GRMM is using their looks as part of the story point in the beginning because he is hiding Jon as a Targareyen because he doesn't look like a Targareyen and is making a point that the Lannister kiddos don't look like Baratheons.  That doesn't mean that he will continue along this path or that the story will continue along this path.  And just because the previous Targareyens that don't look like Targs did not rule does not mean that is the future of the House.  The Targs that look like Targs like Viserys and Aerys were mad and their whole dynasty was deposed.  And the Starks rarely married outside of the North.  The only time I remember is that a Stark married a Blackwood and only because they had the same religion. But things changed for the Starks with Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon and with Lyanna's betrothal to Robert.  And Ned built a sept for Catelyn and Sansa's and Arya's teacher was a septa.  Ned was ok with teaching his children under the Faith of the Seven. 

And the Targareyn brand already changed when Dany freed the slaves.  The Valyrian empire was built upon slavery which they took over from the Ghiscari.  Before that I think they were sheep herders.  So Dany who thinks of herself as the last Targareyen has already changed the Targareyen brand.  She's doing the opposite of what her ancestors have done for many years.  So family brands can and do change.

And Sansa's actions doing the siege of Blackwater was admirable and she showed leadership qualities.  GRMM wrote that.  Sansa can be a good leader and look after other people.  And just because I think that Sansa can be a good leader doesn't take away the leadership qualities of the other characters.  I think that Jon, Dany and Arya will make good leaders too. 

[screamin]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Jon commits treason for the wildlings, Stannis and nostalgia for his family? lol!

I'm glad I amused you, but I'm quite serious. You said:

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We don't know whether Jon agonizes over if sending Mance was a violation of his oaths -

...but having just read over all Jon's chapters in ADWD, AFAICT that there is not one place where Jon has a qualm of conscience that sending Mance Rayder to Arya was a violation of his NW oath. He DOES worry that Mance and/or Melisandre will fail at their mission, but not that he's wronged his oath by allowing them to try. Melisandre even explains to Mance that she specifically engineered their mission to spare Jon's conscience about his oath; Jon was not free to break his oath, but would be okay with unsworn Mance doing what he couldn't do himself.

Whereas he DOES definitely have qualms of conscience about helping Stannis, even with advice, at first...

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The Night's Watch takes no part, Jon thought, but another voice within him said, Words are not swords...Stannis would take the Dreadfort or die in the attempt. The Night's Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder.

...but despite them he still gave Stannis the advice that gets him the fidelity of the mountain clans and the triumph over Deepwood Motte. Jon's story over ADWD is a story of him gradually compromising and bending his oath little by little until he reaches the breaking point. He does it for Arya, yes - but also for the wildlings, when he lets them join the NW and lets them through the wall by the thousands when the traditional role of the NW for centuries was to fight and kill wildlings. He does it to fight for the wildlings against the Others, when he lets them through the Wall, when he sends the scant resources of the Watch to Hardhome to try to rescue them. He does it for Stannis and the realm, as above (laugh all you want, but Jon is moved by Stannis' unexpected 'tenderness' in writing to Jon that he will try to save Arya from Ramsay if he can.) He does it for his family - Stannis is fighting the Starks' enemies, after all. And the fearful, conservative Watch fights him every step of the way, regardless of his reasons, even though they've SEEN the Others, the best reasons he could possibly have.

If Arya were Jon's ONLY reason for breaking his oath, he could have deserted as soon as he read Ramsay's announcement of his impending wedding, and tried to save Arya from her honeymoon rape, and ADWD would have been about 500 pages shorter. But he stayed, because GRRM wanted to make his OTHER reasons for leaving clear...the wildlings, their plight, caught between the Others and Stannis who wants to use them as cannon fodder but is the poor best hope for SOME justice for Jon's family, and the indifferent NW who would prefer to let ALL the wildlings die and shut their eyes to both the danger of the Others and Ramsay. ADHD is his long, frustrating (maybe too long, maybe too frustrating) attempt to try to ride two horses with one arse, trying to be a good Lord Commander according to the rules while having to break them all to fight the Others and save people, and gradually realizing it's impossible. Ramsay finally forces his hand, with his threat not only to Arya, but to Val, Gilly's baby, Shireen, Selyse, Melisandre, and every wildling around the Wall who's in indefensible Mole Town (you KNOW that while Ramsay MIGHT spare the 'crows' if they kissed his ass enough, he would happily massacre every single wildling to claim a victory and because he likes massacres). ALL these things made Jon choose breaking the oath, not just Arya - so resurrected Jon will be bent on doing justice to ALL those things when he comes back. 

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And anyway, why are you coming up with hypothetical situations of what Jon would and would not do if Sansa was married off to Ramsay?

Because....you asked me to, specifically, here?

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Let me ask you this. Do you think that Jon would have broken his NW oath and rallied the wildlings to go attack WF if Sansa was with Ramsay?

I assure you, I'm very glad I've finished answering. I'd much rather ask you what you think resurrected Jon will do.

I'd guess he'll immediately institute a methodical slaughter of every man who conspired against him and everyone who sides with them in the Watch. There are going to be NEW rules - his, and he won't brook more opposition. What do you think he'll do when he finds out the girl he broke his oath and literally gave his life to save isn't Arya, but Jeyne, a girl he really IS indifferent to, and Theon with her?

[anamika]

47 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

And Sansa's actions doing the siege of Blackwater was admirable and she showed leadership qualities.  GRMM wrote that.  Sansa can be a good leader and look after other people.  And just because I think that Sansa can be a good leader doesn't take away the leadership qualities of the other characters.  I think that Jon, Dany and Arya will make good leaders too. 

You specifically asked for why Arya would be a leader in the North apart from her appearance. I specifically gave you all the connections she has to the North. The people in the North think that Jeyne is Arya and are basing their decisions on Arya. The North is rallying for Arya.

I feel like an idiot having wasted my time writing an essay with book quotes and all to explain why I think Arya would be a good ruler in the North. I should have just said that  there was that one time that Arya stood up for the smallfolk and showed admirable and leadership qualities and can be a good leader and GRRM wrote that and hence she will be a good ruler of Winterfell
 

Edited April 13, 2018 by anamika

[Sunshinegal]

I never said that Arya wouldn't be a good ruler.  I never said that in any of my posts.  I agree with you that she would make a good one.  Arya is my favorite character but I also like Sansa and think that she would make a good leader too.  I just think that any argument based on their looks is weak.  I probably shouldn't have said "need a better explanation instead of Arya looks like a Stark and Sansa doesn't" and I did not want you to feel like an idiot about providing book quotes or make you feel like you are wasting your time.  That was never my intention.  And I do like it when people provide book quotes in this forum it just makes the conversation better since we know that the show is going with GRMM's ending. 

I might not always agree with you and you would not always agree with me.  But I do respect your opinion and hope you respect mine. 

[anamika]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

but having just read over all Jon's chapters in ADWD, AFAICT that there is not one place where Jon has a qualm of conscience that sending Mance Rayder to Arya was a violation of his NW oath. He DOES worry that Mance and/or Melisandre will fail at their mission, but not that he's wronged his oath by allowing them to try. Melisandre even explains to Mance that she specifically engineered their mission to spare Jon's conscience about his oath; Jon was not free to break his oath, but would be okay with unsworn Mance doing what he couldn't do himself.

You are right - Jon does not see it as breaking his vows. That's why he acquiesces to it. But rescuing Ramsay's wife was still interfering in the affairs of the realm - Jon was sending a wildling prisoner at the wall to go bring Arya to him. But it is not really an issue for Jon after Mel convinces him otherwise.  Why he hesitates to use Mel/Mance in the first place is because he does not want Mel's help - as I quoted, Jon was not ready to be indebted to Mel even to save Arya - she pushes him into it by convincing him that oaths will not be broken and that they could really help Arya.

9 hours ago, screamin said:

Whereas he DOES definitely have qualms of conscience about helping Stannis, even with advice, at first...

...but despite them he still gave Stannis the advice that gets him the fidelity of the mountain clans and the triumph over Deepwood Motte. Jon's story over ADWD is a story of him gradually compromising and bending his oath little by little until he reaches the breaking point. He does it for Arya, yes - but also for the wildlings, when he lets them join the NW and lets them through the wall by the thousands when the traditional role of the NW for centuries was to fight and kill wildlings.

Yes, he gave Stannis advice and help. Stannis helped defend the wall and helped by giving him ships. Stannis promises to free Winterfell from the Boltons and unite the realm under one king.   And I agree Jon was bending the oaths more and more - but for Stannis and the Wildlings, it was more from a desire to save the realm. To have a united front to face the Others. As he explains to the NW brothers about the wildlings:

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“The lord commander must pardon my bluntness, but I have no softer way to say this. What you propose is nothing less than treason. For eight thousand years the men of the Night’s Watch have stood upon the Wall and fought these wildlings. Now you mean to let them pass, to shelter them in our castles, to feed them and clothe them and teach them how to fight. Lord Snow, must I remind you? You swore an oath.”

“I know what I swore.” Jon said the words. “I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. Were those the same words you said when you took your vows?”

“They were. As the lord commander knows.”

“Are you certain that I have not forgotten some? The ones about the king and his laws, and how we must defend every foot of his land and cling to each ruined castle? How does that part go?” Jon waited for an answer. None came. “I am the shield that guards the realms of men. Those are the words. So tell me, my lord—what are these wildlings, if not men?”

Jon does not see his actions as treason, as wrong, as breaking his oaths - because as he explains - the wildlings are also human beings who deserved to be defended. The bigots like Marsh keep seeing them as other, as the enemy - but Jon is trying to explain to them that this is not so. His time with Ygritte and the Wildlings has made him realize this.

It's the same with Stannis. In the very quote you mention, it says right there:

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The Night's Watch takes no part, Jon thought, but another voice within him said, Words are not swords...Stannis would take the Dreadfort or die in the attempt. The Night's Watch takes no part, a voice said, but another replied, Stannis fights for the realm, the ironmen for thralls and plunder.

Jon sees Stannis as useful in defending the realm and therefore justifies his involvement that way.

That's why Jon continues to involve himself in Northern affairs by organizing marriages and imprisoning the Karstarks. He does not see it as wrong because wildlings united with the North is going to make his job of defending the wall easier.

Jon is not seeing these acts as treason. He is using a broad interpretation of the oaths to justify his actions - that's where he differs from Ned, I think. He is more pragmatic in the way he sees things.

But finally it's Ramsay's letter about Arya that has Jon openly committing treason. This time it's deeply personal.  This time there is no justification or explanation for doing this. He is attacking the Boltons for personal reasons.

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Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason.

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

In the shield hall he says this:

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“The Night’s Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms,” Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. “It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

Jon directly admits to breaking his vows. In stark contrast to explaining to the bigots why helping the wildlings is not treason. The Lord commander of the NW is taking Wildlings south to attack the Lord of Winterfell - that's crossing a line.

It's telling that Jon setting off for Winterfell is what makes the mutineers get together and stab him outside the shieldhall - they know they are as good as dead with the wildlings nearby. But his setting off to attack WF is the straw that breaks the camel's back. There is no justifying this and Jon knows it.

9 hours ago, screamin said:

He does it for Stannis and the realm, as above (laugh all you want, but Jon is moved by Stannis' unexpected 'tenderness' in writing to Jon that he will try to save Arya from Ramsay if he can.) He does it for his family - Stannis is fighting the Starks' enemies, after all.

I am only laughing at your refusal to acknowledge that Jon specifically broke his oaths for Arya and instead keep insisting that it was for his family, for Stannis, for wildlings etc.

9 hours ago, screamin said:

If Arya were Jon's ONLY reason for breaking his oath, he could have deserted as soon as he read Ramsay's announcement of his impending wedding, and tried to save Arya from her honeymoon rape, and ADWD would have been about 500 pages shorter.

That would have been the stupidest thing ever. GRRM is writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. If Jon just ups and leaves after hearing about the wedding there would be no story there. Jon is leading the NW and preparing it for whats to come - manning the wall, training the men, food stores, wildlings, iron bank, Stannis etc. In the midst of this, he hears about Arya. He is torn between love and duty and thinks about knives in his heart etc. He has a job to do, can't get involved with Ramsay by law and yet at the same time his sister is in a horrible position. His men are angry with him and he needs to make hard decisions.

That was the underlying theme of Jon's ADwD arc - should he put love over duty. It's a theme that resonates in his story and it's a conflict that he's been heading towards since the beginning ever since Aemon tells him this:

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What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms... or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.

Quote

Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel," the old man had said, "the same counsel I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born." The old man felt Jon's face. "You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

GRRM explores this with Jon and Arya.  Should he put love over duty or kill the boy and let the man be born?

We see him thinking about all this. He does not go help Robb because of his oaths. He killed the boy and let the man be born. He loses Ygritte because of his oaths. You know nothing Jon Snow. But he can't do it when he thinks of Arya:

Quote

He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born.

He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.

9 hours ago, screamin said:

 Because....you asked me to, specifically, here?

Because you brought up the hypothetical situation of Sansa with Ramsay to argue that Jon was not worried about Sansa because of Tyrion?  Basically you have been arguing the entire time, that Jon did not break his oaths specifically to save Arya - that Jon did nothing special to save Arya - he did it for the wildlings and Stannis and his family. There's a desire here to undermine Jon's relationship with Arya and push forward the idea that Jon would have done the same for anyone.

9 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I never said that Arya wouldn't be a good ruler.  I never said that in any of my posts.  I agree with you that she would make a good one.  Arya is my favorite character but I also like Sansa and think that she would make a good leader too.  I just think that any argument based on their looks is weak.  I probably shouldn't have said "need a better explanation instead of Arya looks like a Stark and Sansa doesn't" and I did not want you to feel like an idiot about providing book quotes or make you feel like you are wasting your time.  That was never my intention.  And I do like it when people provide book quotes in this forum it just makes the conversation better since we know that the show is going with GRMM's ending.

Hey, no issue. I was just joking!

Edited April 13, 2018 by anamika

[Wouter]

On 9-4-2018 at 4:30 PM, Eyes High said:

I think the throne is down to Jon and/or Dany, but Tyrion remains a dark horse candidate, as hideous, disfigured and reviled as Book Tyrion may be. I can't rule it out yet.

I don't think there's anything in the books pointing to Sansa as the endgame queen. She'll be lucky if she makes it out of the series alive in my opinion. 

 

On 9-4-2018 at 10:51 PM, GraceK said:

Agreed. Sansa as endgame queen is every Sansa fans wetdream. Ain’t happening.

Putting those 2 quotes together for an observation: from my experience, most Sansa fans don't want Sansa as endgame queen. The reason is that pretty much Sansa's only shot at that (in the context of Westeros and the Iron Throne, at least) lies with Tyrion. If Tyrion is the dark horse candidate for being end-king (this would rely on Dany and Jon both not being available at the end), there is a very clear way for Sansa to be queen (and possibly fullfill the YMBQ prophecy, as dark horse alternative to Dany) but very few Sansa fans like the implication of that.

I think most Sansa fans want her to be lady of Winterfell or lady of the Vale or some such, with a happy marriage or single.