Dawson's Creek - General Discussion

[Scarlett45]

I’m watching Season 3 episode 14, it’s the one where Jack’s ex GF comes to visit, and the kids get arrested and Pacey is crazy jealous and drunk at the attention Dawson and Joey are paying each other. 
 

I did like Michael Pitt as Henry but knowing what an asshole he was in real life kinda ruins it. He was very good in Murder by Numbers with Ryan Gosling. I should rewatch that one of these days. 

[SparedTurkey]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I did like Michael Pitt as Henry but knowing what an asshole he was in real life kinda ruins it

What did he do?

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

What did he do?

He got fired from Boardwalk Empire for being a supreme asshole to EVERYONE. That's why they killed the character off, they could not stand working with him any more.

[Scarlett45]

“I can’t keep on kissing you.”- Pacey

He spoke the truth-Like Joey girl!!!!

Either you want him or you don’t!

 

I mean we know she does-

 

But I have no patience.

 

I can say that 35 yrs old me thinks the writing and build up was well done, but maybe because I’m not attracted to Pacey at all I am not moved. The wall purchasing didn’t move me. 

[luckyroll3]

22 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

“I can’t keep on kissing you.”- Pacey

He spoke the truth-Like Joey girl!!!!

Either you want him or you don’t!

I mean we know she does-

This was so on point. I'm guessing part of it has to do with Joey not wanting to admit to herself that she wanted Pacey too, because then she would have to acknowledge that maybe Dawson isn't her endgame like she'd always dreamed. But from Pacey's perspective, all the effort couldn't just come from him because that only helps to create more doubt on his end that she may just not be interested/won't ever get over Dawson. Oooh, it's frustrating! And really made me hurt for Pacey who already saw himself as not important/less important to everyone.

[Scarlett45]

12 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

This was so on point. I'm guessing part of it has to do with Joey not wanting to admit to herself that she wanted Pacey too, because then she would have to acknowledge that maybe Dawson isn't her endgame like she'd always dreamed. But from Pacey's perspective, all the effort couldn't just come from him because that only helps to create more doubt on his end that she may just not be interested/won't ever get over Dawson. Oooh, it's frustrating! And really made me hurt for Pacey who already saw himself as not important/less important to everyone.

No I totally get where Pacey was coming from. Joey either wanted him, or she didn't, she needed to own it or leave him alone. That was only fair to him.

I wouldn't want Pacey, but he is a human being deserving of respect and emotional consideration. I am planning on finishing up this season today or tomorrow. I am waiting for Joey to leave with Pacey on the boat, with no clothes or anything- I assume she had her wallet in her pocket! (I know they didnt have phones yet) Bessie had a right to be MIGHTY PISSED.

Who lets their teen just jet off for the ENTIRE summer on a boat alone?? (speaking of Pacey's parents here) I am not someone who believes teens must be supervised 24/7, but if Pacey broke a leg, he couldn't even sign the consent to get it fixed! It would've made more sense if he was going for a week or he and Doug were doing a two week trip together and Joey tagged along.

[Jess14]

44 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Who lets their teen just jet off for the ENTIRE summer on a boat alone?? (speaking of Pacey's parents here) I am not someone who believes teens must be supervised 24/7, but if Pacey broke a leg, he couldn't even sign the consent to get it fixed! It would've made more sense if he was going for a week or he and Doug were doing a two week trip together and Joey tagged along.

Right, lol. I didn’t think this at the time. And maybe it’s because I’m in my thirties now, but looking back, it seems like so many of the teens show that I watched would’ve been more realistic if they had been in college and not minors. 

[Scarlett45]

8 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

Right, lol. I didn’t think this at the time. And maybe it’s because I’m in my thirties now, but looking back, it seems like so many of the teens show that I watched would’ve been more realistic if they had been in college and not minors. 

Yeah, most of the stuff so far has been pretty realistic, like Dawson and Pacey going camping alone seems reasonable for the WEEKEND. But an entire summer?? 

Not that I think there’s a huge emotional difference between 17 and 18, but I remember starting college at 17 (late Bday) and my Mom stressing “do not break a leg for the next 5 weeks, I don’t want To have to fly back down here!”

Pacey’s parents seemed to be emotionally neglectful at best. 

[Jess14]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah, most of the stuff so far has been pretty realistic, like Dawson and Pacey going camping alone seems reasonable for the WEEKEND. But an entire summer?? 

Not that I think there’s a huge emotional difference between 17 and 18, but I remember starting college at 17 (late Bday) and my Mom stressing “do not break a leg for the next 5 weeks, I don’t want To have to fly back down here!”

Pacey’s parents seemed to be emotionally neglectful at best. 

Yeah. Dawson’s Creek isn’t as bad as some of the others (One Tree Hill…I’m looking at you!) outside of Pacey and Joey’s summer vacation. I liked Pacey and Joey as a couple but that trip was so absurd….

 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

Yeah. Dawson’s Creek isn’t as bad as some of the others (One Tree Hill…I’m looking at you!) outside of Pacey and Joey’s summer vacation. I liked Pacey and Joey as a couple but that trip was so absurd….

 

Im in my OTH rewatch, and Brooke's absentee parents senior year made some sort of sense (didnt they leave Karen as her guardian) but how was Peyton's Dad working on the oil rig ALL these years and just leaving her alone consistently? No guardian? IRL an aunt or older cousin would've been left to be her guardian even if they were okay with her living alone in the house part of the time.

Back to Dawson's creek- I do like Bessie and Joey's relationship, I wish they had developed Bessie and Brodie a bit more (like Mr/Mrs Leery), but they are distinctly older sibling/younger sibling, not mother and daughter and you can tell. They are only 10yrs a part, I can only imagine how hard it was for Bessie when their Mom died and the father went to prison. Not only was she mourning her mother, she had to consider the care of her 13yrs old sister, because their father was absent. She is doing a good job with her but its clear how much Joey has missed her mom.

[absnow54]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I am waiting for Joey to leave with Pacey on the boat, with no clothes or anything- I assume she had her wallet in her pocket!

I just love that Joey had time to run home and change her clothes, but didn’t pack a backpack or something. She seemed pretty set that she was going to go with him, so it’s not like she JUST made the decision, unless she decided on the run there. And I know it’s not as cinematic  to watch them make a quick stop at the B&B to grab some things as it is to watch them sail into the sunset, but it’s not like Pacey had to leave THAT SECOND. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I just love that Joey had time to run home and change her clothes, but didn’t pack a backpack or something. She seemed pretty set that she was going to go with him, so it’s not like she JUST made the decision, unless she decided on the run there. And I know it’s not as cinematic  to watch them make a quick stop at the B&B to grab some things as it is to watch them sail into the sunset, but it’s not like Pacey had to leave THAT SECOND. 

The prop department should've given her a backpack, at least with some underwear, her wallet and tampons. Yes of course they were stopping places along the way but ONE backpack would've been reasonable. Also on these teen shows the kids backpacks always look so light. I had HEAVY books back in the late 90s, early 00s before things went digital.

Also did Pacey have enough money saved to feed TWO people on this trip? The Potters never had much money, and wasnt Joey giving Bessie a part of her wages for household expenses to make ends meet? (I dont doubt Bessie let her keep some for her pocket money, but an entire summer away would cost $$)

[EarlGreyTea]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

The prop department should've given her a backpack, at least with some underwear, her wallet and tampons. Yes of course they were stopping places along the way but ONE backpack would've been reasonable. Also on these teen shows the kids backpacks always look so light. I had HEAVY books back in the late 90s, early 00s before things went digital.

Also did Pacey have enough money saved to feed TWO people on this trip? The Potters never had much money, and wasnt Joey giving Bessie a part of her wages for household expenses to make ends meet? (I dont doubt Bessie let her keep some for her pocket money, but an entire summer away would cost $$)

I kind of got the impression they lived off whatever they caught and were probably malnourished when they got home as a result.

I seem to recall an interview with one of the writers or producers about this particular scene. They pointed out how it would have stopped the romantic moment flat if Joey began talking logistics, i.e., a toothbrush.

Also if she'd shown up with a backpack, Pacey might have guessed why she was there and ruined the big emotional reveal.

13-year-old me was briefly confused when I first saw it, but it was SO romantic to me then and I didn't worry about the particulars. 33-year-old me would need a reliable WiFi signal, lol.

Edited May 24, 2021 by EarlGreyTea

[absnow54]

17 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I kind of got the impression they lived off whatever they caught and were probably malnourished when they got home as a result.

I could have sworn that either in a season 4 scene or maybe Dawson’s Desktop, they talked about working odd jobs at ports... or maybe it was a fanfic I read a million years ago. 

[Scarlett45]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:29 AM, absnow54 said:

I could have sworn that either in a season 4 scene or maybe Dawson’s Desktop, they talked about working odd jobs at ports... or maybe it was a fanfic I read a million years ago. 

They did talk about that. I’m on season 4 episode 2 right now. 
 

Why is Joey always braless? Where were the costume designers going with that?

I’m remembering why I didn’t like this love triangle- why is Pacey always so damn focused on Dawson? The insecurity is so unattractive. Pacey isn’t a bad guy, but I would get sick of him talking about how he compares to Dawson. I also am turned off by the bad student thing. 

[luckyroll3]

On 5/24/2021 at 12:33 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Who lets their teen just jet off for the ENTIRE summer on a boat alone?? (speaking of Pacey's parents here)

 

On 5/24/2021 at 1:32 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Pacey’s parents seemed to be emotionally neglectful at best.

Given what they've shown us about Pacey's parents and his home life, I believe they were fine letting him go for the entire summer. They barely gave 2 shits about him most of the time. From the dad's perspective, no mouthy teen to deal with; from the mom's one less person to take care of.

15 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Why is Joey always braless?

Because she's a "tom boy" who doesn't realize how "womanly" she is. 😒

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, luckyroll3 said:

Given what they've shown us about Pacey's parents and his home life, I believe they were fine letting him go for the entire summer. They barely gave 2 shits about him most of the time. From the dad's perspective, no mouthy teen to deal with; from the mom's one less person to take care of.

Yes, Gretchen returns to Capeside, and I understand why Pacey would want to move in with her. From what I remember I really like the Gretchen/Dawson relationship.

Why was Jen lamenting that Henry was the first real boyfriend she ever had? She had boyfriends in NYC (one who came to visit her after she moved, Eion Bailey played him) and Dawson....to whom she was lamenting this fact. The series forgets Jen and Dawson dated for a hot minute I think until Dawson loses her virginity with her. That's season 5 I think.

1 hour ago, luckyroll3 said:

Because she's a "tom boy" who doesn't realize how "womanly" she is. 😒

Ummmm yeah. Now I know I am a rarity as a woman who loves to wear bras (I feel more secure and comfortable), but I dont recall in the early 00s my teen peers just going braless all the time, even if they were tall and small busted like Joey/Katie Holmes. 

[Scarlett45]

Something I’ve noticed that I think ended with the Dawson’s Creek era of teen dramas, is that the kids looked like they styled themselves. Now we are at Jen’s “un birthday party” and Andi has done her hair for the party and it looks “done”, but like a teen girl did it in her bathroom not a professional hairstylist did it. 
 

Im already getting sick of Pacey and Joey fighting about Dawson. “The person that knows you best”- well of course that would be Dawson, he’s been her BFF since they were what 4-5yrs old? Pacey has been her boyfriend for what, 6-7months at this point?

Bye Andie, you were a good character- I think we see you at the end of the season for graduation, and it’s awful they cut her scenes from the series finale.

[Scarlett45]

Why do Dawson & Gretchen have to be sensitive to Pacey and Joey?

Dawson already told Pacey about he and Gretchen (cause that’s his sister and they are rebuilding a friendship- okay).....why does Dawson dating Gretchen affect Joey?

Joey dumped Dawson 2x a year and a half ago and got with Pacey for the last 7 months at least (I’m assuming they went off sailing in June, and we’ve already had Christmas). Dawson was upset they were together, but from what we’ve seen Dawson has been civil, minding his own business and THEY show up in his bedroom. 

 

I feel bad Pacey has such a shitty parents (I was surprised to see Jane Lynch!), Bessie isn’t perfect but she’s doing a good job encouraging and nurturing Joey, and she’s her older sister who has custody because their mother died and their father went to prison. 

[EarlGreyTea]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Why do Dawson & Gretchen have to be sensitive to Pacey and Joey?

Dawson already told Pacey about he and Gretchen (cause that’s his sister and they are rebuilding a friendship- okay).....why does Dawson dating Gretchen affect Joey?

Joey dumped Dawson 2x a year and a half ago and got with Pacey for the last 7 months at least (I’m assuming they went off sailing in June, and we’ve already had Christmas). Dawson was upset they were together, but from what we’ve seen Dawson has been civil, minding his own business and THEY show up in his bedroom. 

 

I feel bad Pacey has such a shitty parents (I was surprised to see Jane Lynch!), Bessie isn’t perfect but she’s doing a good job encouraging and nurturing Joey, and she’s her older sister who has custody because their mother died and their father went to prison. 

I think Pacey and Joey simply gave Dawson too much power over them. He lived rent-free in their heads for the entire relationship and long after. I kind of think Dawson got off (so to speak) on the power he wielded over these two from such broken homes and sad circumstances (yet he whined the most about his own home life!). But they allowed it! Make your choice and stick with it, Joey. Her constant soothing of Dawson's ruffled feathers in S4 drove me berserk.

I have always thought it  was a testament to the sheer force of Joshua Jackson's talent and the insane chemistry of P/J that so much of the viewing audience ended up on his/their side. On paper, Dawson was the injured party. If my best friend and "soulmate" ran off together, I'd be pretty livid about it too. Yet Pacey was able to generate such sympathy that Dawson ended up looking like a whiny, bratty idiot much of the time. I will say the writing didn't much back Dawson up, because trying to crash his (borrowed) boat into Pacey's was sociopathic!

[Scarlett45]

3 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

I will say the writing didn't much back Dawson up, because trying to crash his (borrowed) boat into Pacey's was sociopathic!

Dawson was wrong for that- 100%.
 

But as I watch Season 4, Dawson isn’t bothering these people! He isn’t being mean or rude, he’s going about his school day, talking to Jack or Gretchen, and Joey or Pacey (usually Joey) are asking him for emotional depth and attention. If Dawson has feelings he isn’t burdening Joey with it, cause that’s not Joey’s place any more at HER insistence. When he and Pacey begin to rebuild their friendship they go fishing and just chill; he tells him about his feelings for Gretchen (totally normal).

 

I really think everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too. Pacey and Joey had every right to be together, but Dawson also had every right to re-establish boundaries to both friendships so that he could protect HIS heart. After the initial shock and he tells Joey to go off with Pacey, he leaves them the fuck alone.

I was team Dawson in 2001 and I’m still team Dawson. I feel bad for Pacey as a human being, but his constant insecurities would get on my damn nerves and unlike Joey/Andi I don’t have a “Captain Save-A-Bro” complex. 

[absnow54]

I think the problem with season 4 Dawson, was that they wrote themselves into a corner with season 3 Dawson, and didn't address how emotionally manipulative and cruel he was in the aftermath of Joey and Pacey. While Joey and Pacey wronged him, the show never gave Dawson any repercussions for reacting the way he did, aside from "losing the girl."

That said, Joey and Pacey are flawed characters as well. Dawson isn't the one sabotaging their relationship, and I don't think it's played that way either. Joey's obsession with Dawson goes back as far as the Pilot when she tells Dawson "It's not that I wanted to be the one holding your hand, I just didn't want [Jen] to be holding it." She continues to hate all of Dawson's love interests regardless of her own relationship status. It's annoying. Joey is carrying a lot of trauma, and she values her relationship with Dawson above all others, especially in season 4, because they're still on shaky ground from the whole Pacey thing, and she's desperate not to mess it up. So while Dawson is totally chill in season 4, Joey's actions are based on his behavior in season 3. It doesn't make it Dawson's fault, it's a Joey issue, which the show failed to really acknowledge, because they were running with the belief that Dawson/Joey had a magical connection that would be "end game" and that Joey was perfect (wait until you get to season 5 and 6!)

Pacey's insecurities and self doubt are only exacerbated by Joey's obsession with Dawson. He's very obviously depressed by the end of season 4, and I think the show missed a huge opportunity to explore Pacey's mental health issues, but Jen was in the middle of her own therapy story arc at the time. But yeah, Pacey needed to find worth in himself, rather than channeling all of his worth into his romatic relationships. 

 

[Scarlett45]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:58 AM, absnow54 said:

Pacey's mental health issues, but Jen was in the middle of her own therapy story arc at the time. But yeah, Pacey needed to find worth in himself, rather than channeling all of his worth into his romatic relationships. 

Yes! During my watch tonight, Gretchen says “Pacey just isn’t good with dealing with Pacey.”

Dawson acted out at the end of season 3, but he did cut it out and apologize for all that. And he then stopped expecting all this emotional labor from EITHER ONE of them. I guess this is why I’m still Team Dawson after all these years- he was hurt and in shock, acted out, and then stepped the fuck back and was just living his life.
 

They were all immature teens (which was fair, they were 17) but Dawson was the one not wanting to have his cake and eat it too. Pacey was decent, even though he was insecure, and Joey was all over the place and not worth all this trouble. 

But Pacey had no cause to be angry at Joey- his academic failures weren't her fault. 

These prom dresses are SO ON TREND! It’s taking me back. Sasha Alexander (Gretchen) has just the figure for a one shoulder dress. She was so pretty- I see why Dawson was enamored. 

[Scarlett45]

BUT-

Pacey had no right to jump off on Joey at the prom. 

Joey has done some shitty things (as a girlfriend) but his self hatred isn’t her fault.

And to embarrass her in PUBLIC that. Pacey I was on your side dude, until that outburst. Pacey is too insecure to be in a healthy relationship and Joey is too emotionally dependent on Dawson. 

Edit to Add- Pacey certainly has a "Capt' Save-Wounded-Bird" complex. Of course you should want to be emotionally open for your partner, but Pacey has a tendency to want to be everything under the sun to the women in his life, and if they have something outside of him he is threatened. Its EXACTLY what you said @absnow54.
 

I get everything Gretchen was saying (yes child you need to go back to school!!!), but she could’ve had sex with Dawson first and THEN said all that? Maybe?🤣

[Scarlett45]

Pacey, you’re back on my good side. You apologized to Joey for his behavior at prom. That took maturity. 
 

Ive enjoyed the character of Drew this season. 

[EarlGreyTea]

It was kind of infuriating that Pacey and Dawson weren't allowed to be sympathetic at the same time - in terms of writing, that is. Season 3 Dawson, as I said before, was a whiny asshole who tried to bump off Pacey and poor Will in that borrowed boat (However, to be frank, I didn't mind much since I loved Pacey and hated Dawson).

Season 4 was all about Dawson's redemption. Fine. But this is when I started caring about the writing only allowing for one or the other to be sympathetic at a time. In one season, Pacey lost his boat, kept his academic probation from Joey, threw a heinous tantrum at prom, and a bunch of other things. All while Dawson came out smelling like roses. I wish there was a little more nuance in the writing to allow for both to be sympathetic at the same time.

Of course, as Pacey was my first TV crush, I was always sympathetic towards him (except Promicide, although the sentiment behind it - his crushing insecurity and depression - I did have some pity for.).

Edited June 4, 2021 by EarlGreyTea

[Scarlett45]

37 minutes ago, EarlGreyTea said:

It was kind of infuriating that Pacey and Dawson weren't allowed to be sympathetic at the same time - in terms of writing, that is. Season 3 Dawson, as I said before, was a whiny asshole who tried to bump off Pacey and poor Will in that borrowed boat (However, to be frank, I didn't mind much since I loved Pacey and hated Dawson).

Season 4 was all about Dawson's redemption. Fine. But this is when I started caring about the writing only allowing for one or the other to be sympathetic at a time. In one season, Pacey lost his boat, kept his academic probation from Joey, threw a heinous tantrum at prom, and a bunch of other things. All while Dawson came out smelling like roses. I wish there was a little more nuance in the writing to allow for both to be sympathetic at the same time.

Of course, as Pacey was my first TV crush, I was always sympathetic towards him (except Promicide, although the sentiment behind it - his crushing insecurity and depression - I did have some pity for.).

I understand EXACTLY what you are saying here! We are on the same page. (although I had a tv crush on Dawson, but we are opposite sides of the same coin)

As well as they wrote the Pacey/Joey build up in Season 3, they didn't write the fall out from the triangle WELL. We could've had a few more decent scenes of Pacey/Dawson rebuilding their friendship (like when they went fishing, more of that), and scenes of Joey/Dawson rebuilding their friendship without having Joey being weird and prioritizing Dawson's feelings over Pacey. I there was a way to write them all as friends, without having Dawson be this cloud over the Joey/Pacey relationship.

For the record, Joey didnt cheat on Dawson with Pacey (they always write it that way)- they were NOT together, because Joey dumped him twice. I get why Dawson was upset by his ex who he still had feelings for and his other BFF getting together, but Joey and Pacey always acted so guilty, like people who did cheat in a committed relationship. I think they put that guilt on themselves, because they were both insecure and didnt feel worthy of Dawson's friendship in various ways.

And I still say Dawson and Gretchen should've had sex. I LIKED them together. I even like the way they ended, but Dawson having sex with Jen in season 5? Something tells me I am not going to like that.

[Jess14]

3 hours ago, EarlGreyTea said:

It was kind of infuriating that Pacey and Dawson weren't allowed to be sympathetic at the same time - in terms of writing, that is. Season 3 Dawson, as I said before, was a whiny asshole who tried to bump off Pacey and poor Will in that borrowed boat (However, to be frank, I didn't mind much since I loved Pacey and hated Dawson).

Season 4 was all about Dawson's redemption. Fine. But this is when I started caring about the writing only allowing for one or the other to be sympathetic at a time. In one season, Pacey lost his boat, kept his academic probation from Joey, threw a heinous tantrum at prom, and a bunch of other things. All while Dawson came out smelling like roses. I wish there was a little more nuance in the writing to allow for both to be sympathetic at the same time.

Of course, as Pacey was my first TV crush, I was always sympathetic towards him (except Promicide, although the sentiment behind it - his crushing insecurity and depression - I did have some pity for.).

Yes, exactly. They made Dawson such a whiny, manipulative asshole at the end of Season 3 that they had to redeem him, so then Pacey had to become an asshole who mopes for the second half of the season and yells at his girlfriend at prom in Season 4. There was an easy way to make both sympathetic, but they were too lazy to do it. 

I do always wonder if I would be more pro-Dawson if I had watched from the beginning. Probably not because I always liked Josh Jackson, but back in the day, I started watching in mid season 3 (the episode where Pacey and Joey take ballroom lessons) before going back and watching the rest later. So, one of my first impressions of Dawson was in Season 3, and his behavior made me decisively pro-Pacey. I never waivered. 

[absnow54]

On 6/4/2021 at 3:39 PM, Jess14 said:

I do always wonder if I would be more pro-Dawson if I had watched from the beginning. Probably not because I always liked Josh Jackson, but back in the day, I started watching in mid season 3 (the episode where Pacey and Joey take ballroom lessons) before going back and watching the rest later. So, one of my first impressions of Dawson was in Season 3, and his behavior made me decisively pro-Pacey. I never waivered. 

I can tell you, I was very pro-Dawson/Joey during the first season. I loved Joshua Jackson from Mighty Ducks, but he was trapped in an awful story the first half of season 1, and I was all about Dawson and Joey's friend to lovers arc. I remember when the episode aired where Pacey realizes he's attracted to Joey and asks Dawson for his permission to pursue it, I was so mad at the possibility that Joey could end up with someone else! I was only an intermittent viewer through season 2 and 3, and ended up watching The Longest Day completely out of context, and was firmly Team Dawson at the time, because I'd completely missed the Joey/Pacey slow burn. It wasn't until the series finale, which again, I watched completely out of context that I found myself dreading the ending, because I didn't know what I'd do if PACEY and Joey didn't end up together. Did a complete series rewatch (a couple of times) after that and I've been decisively pro-Pacey ever since. Dawson is much better from season 4 on, but to be honest, I have a hard time watching season 5 and 6 (and often 4, for that matter) so I rarely appreciate the character. 

[Scarlett45]

I just started Season 5, and the characters finally had cell phones! This pans out because this episode aired October 10, 2001, and I got my first phone for Christmas 2000. 
 

I am going to watch this one episode and then a movie for Pride month, because Mitch is going to die and I know I’m going to be a mess. 
 

How in the hell was I asleep on Mr Leery? He was so hot!!!

[absnow54]

While I think Mitch's funeral episode was well done, I still can't get over how insanely stupid his death scene was. And then the next episode Pacey lets Dawson know that it wasn't Mitch's fault, because the guy in the other car was asleep at the wheel, when we, the audience, saw Mitch dumbly fishing for a scoop of ice cream that had fallen on the floor while driving.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

While I think Mitch's funeral episode was well done, I still can't get over how insanely stupid his death scene was. And then the next episode Pacey lets Dawson know that it wasn't Mitch's fault, because the guy in the other car was asleep at the wheel, when we, the audience, saw Mitch dumbly fishing for a scoop of ice cream that had fallen on the floor while driving.

I haven’t seen the episode yet, but I think that makes it all the more tragic because it’s so common. While some people are more contentious than others I think we all have reached for something or been distracted at least once in our driving experience.

Most of the time nothing bad happens, and sometimes other drivers practice defensive driving and it’s just a fender bender. Ugh poor Dawson, Gail and Lily. 

[luckyroll3]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

While I think Mitch's funeral episode was well done, I still can't get over how insanely stupid his death scene was.

I have totally done this, not to the point where my head was completely under the dash like his was, but enough that when it happened I said to myself, "This is how Mitch died....don't do that again!"

[Scarlett45]

I forgot Jennifer Morrison played a love interest for Pacey. I never thought Jennifer Morrison looked that much like Ginnifer Goodwin although everyone always said so during the run of  Once Upon a Time . However seeing Jennifer this young, I see it more now, they had similar lower faces, just that Jennifer was blonde. 

[Scarlett45]

Season 5, Episode 4: The Long Goodbye-

Such a good episode. The acting was top notch and the emotional beats were well done. I’m okay emotionally. Maybe I will be alright to watch the Duke of Edinburgh’s funeral in a month or two, it’s been rough over here in the grief and loss department. 

[Scarlett45]

Picking back up on Dawson's- im trying to get through Season 5 with the holiday weekend coming up. Dawson and his grief over his Dad- well done. I am loving Busy Philips as an addition to the cast, she is fun.

 

Edited to add- 

So Jen and Dawson just had sex. 

I don’t hate it. 

It makes sense narrative wise, but I would’ve preferred him to have sex with Gretchen. 
 

I liked Dawson & Gretchen together. I did in 2001, and I do in 2021. 

[Ambrosefolly]

I like James Van Der Beek. Save for his "I ate poo" cry face, I think he has a ton of range. I really wish that Dawson's Creek would have discovered his comic timing, because he was hilarious in "Don't Trust the B* in Apartment 23."

Edited July 3, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[Scarlett45]

Joey gets mugged and feels sorry for the guy, and she kisses her professor. So odd. The only good thing about these last few episodes are Pacey and Audrey (I buy them together but I think they don’t last because they are TOO much alike) as well as Dawson and Joey hanging out.
 

However I think that Dawson has not been the best boyfriend to Jen. I think he’s attracted to Jen and enjoys her, and no, he’s not a nasty jerk who would mistreat or cheat on her, but I’m not seeing any emotional depth I would expect in a romantic relationship with people that have known each other this long (it would be fine if they were just starting out). I think Dawson got with Jen because she was emotionally easy after his father died and she was attractive and available. And Jen got with Dawson because he was decent and he made her feel needed. Especially after what happened with Charlie (the first guy she had dated in over a year). That didn’t last long did it???

[absnow54]

I liked Dawson and Jen the second go around, and was bummed when they dropped it at warp speed to make the 100th episode all about Dawson and Joey again (similar to how Joey was all about Dawson a week after Pacey left in season 4.) Dawson's best relationship was by far Dawson and Gretchen though. She really helped him grow up and evolve away from season 3 Dawson. 

[Scarlett45]

On 7/7/2021 at 10:14 AM, absnow54 said:

I liked Dawson and Jen the second go around, and was bummed when they dropped it at warp speed to make the 100th episode all about Dawson and Joey again (similar to how Joey was all about Dawson a week after Pacey left in season 4.) Dawson's best relationship was by far Dawson and Gretchen though. She really helped him grow up and evolve away from season 3 Dawson. 

Dawson & Gretchen were good together. She was older but it wasn’t predatory- they wrote it very well. 
 

I don’t think Dawson and Jen had ANYTHING in common besides both being cute. I didn’t expect them to last too long. I’m watching the season 5 finale now and I wish we could’ve gotten footage of Jen & Jack having fun in Costa Rica (I forgot they didn’t go). 

[Ambrosefolly]

Joshua Jackson discusses the "Hot for Teacher" storyline

Really, WTF? It was totally presented as romantic. Pacey did his darnedest to make sure that teacher was shielded when the affair was exposed. This wasn't "A Teacher" or "Cruel Summer,"  where the teacher was presented as the wrong party, despite the relationship presented as romantic on the student's side. My issue with the storyline was that it wasn't presented as grooming, because that what it was, with Pacey presented as the pursuer. 

[SparedTurkey]

20 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Really, WTF? It was totally presented as romantic. Pacey did his darnedest to make sure that teacher was shielded when the affair was exposed

It was presented as a bit too romantic but watching it back it 20 years later does make it look like grooming 101 when it gets going because Tamara puts it all on him and emphasises the secretness. Shame they didn't lean into it as being wrong which you know they would have done with one of the girls. And at least they had a disciplinary hearing at all (looking at you, Pretty Little Liars). Could have been handled way better overall though.

Also, Dr Death is awesome. Like as though Pacey grew up to be a sociopathic murderer! Also the fat suit at one point is hilarious..

[Ambrosefolly]

On 7/19/2021 at 6:07 AM, SparedTurkey said:

It was presented as a bit too romantic but watching it back it 20 years later does make it look like grooming 101 when it gets going because Tamara puts it all on him and emphasises the secretness. Shame they didn't lean into it as being wrong which you know they would have done with one of the girls. And at least they had a disciplinary hearing at all (looking at you, Pretty Little Liars). Could have been handled way better overall though.

Also, Dr Death is awesome. Like as though Pacey grew up to be a sociopathic murderer! Also the fat suit at one point is hilarious..

My issue is that after all of these years, Kevin Williamson and Joshua Jackson don't see the relationship as totally fucked up. The only reason KW wouldn't write it now is because it isn't socially acceptable to have a high school teacher date a student, especially while they are in high school, not because it is wrong. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the storyline (and much right) if the relationship was framed as a form of grooming.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Ambrosefolly said:

My issue is that after all of these years, Kevin Williamson and Joshua Jackson don't see the relationship as totally fucked up. The only reason KW wouldn't write it now is because it isn't socially acceptable to have a high school teacher date a student, especially while they are in high school, not because it is wrong. There wouldn't be anything wrong with the storyline (at much right) if the relationship was framed as a form of grooming.

I knew the relationship was weird AF at 13, as an adult woman of 35 I was disgusted. You could have the storyline (with an actor that was actually an adult) so long as you portrayed it correctly. Or if you wanted emotional nuisance to it- have it be a senior (so someone 17/18) and a college student doing their student teaching- still inappropriate, but without the level of moral turpitude of a grown ass woman grooming a CHILD as her sexual play thing and then getting mad at him for telling his buddies. Where by then he lied to protect her from the consequences of her actions.

[Scarlett45]

Getting back into my Dawson’s. 

So I’m 100% on Dawson’s side with this one. He was seeing a girl in LA and ended things with her immediately after he and Joey slept together. 

Joey was never a one night stand to him and she knows that. She is being childish. “Seeing someone” at 19 isn’t a committed relationship. 

I think Dawson represents to her a comfort that she always wanted in her childhood but didn’t get (with her Mom’s cancer and her dad’s prison sentence). But he’s a flawed person just like her. 

But her lamenting that their first time didn’t mean anything to him was such bullshit. Dawson wasn’t married to a woman in another country Joey! He didn’t use or lie to you. 

What’s she crying for??? I don’t understand. 

[Scarlett45]

I’m on episode 4 of season 6. Are we about to put Jack through more shit with being sexually harassed?

I don’t understand Joey at all right now. What’s she so angsty for? If she doesn’t want to be with Dawson that’s fine, but he didn’t DO anything to her. Dawson cares about her very much and clearly wanted to be with her. If she doesn’t feel the same, I understand but how is she a victim here?

[Scarlett45]

The “No Doubt Concert” episode. I have to say CJ (aka Dean from Supernatural) is a creep. Audrey said OVER AND OVER “I don’t like you, it was a one time thing.” And he won’t leave her alone. She explicitly said she wasn’t interested. Go away dude!

Jen was very mature about the situation. CJ didn’t like her, but that doesn’t mean she was going to act a fool about it.

 

Eddie gets on my nerves. Why does Joey like him again?

[Scarlett45]

Eddie and Joey love each other? Really??? 

I cannot. I don’t get Eddie and Joey at all. 

Charlie at least made narrative sense and Chad Michael Murray was a better actor. 

“A great love of her life” REALLY now??? They didn’t do anything but bicker, have sex and then he whined. 

Audrey was given a drinking problem, which I could see but it was written poorly. Everyone is off doing their own thing besides Jen and Jack who actually seem like friends at this point. 
 

So I take it Dawson left film school again- I think they should’ve kept the Oliver character to give Dawson better scene partners than that Natasha and the director. 

[Scarlett45]

These last few episodes of the season are awful. Eddie and Joey can suck it as a couple, (I think Eddie was probably a good lay and that was the draw), Dawson spent the entire season doing his own thing, Pacey has been fiddling since his breakup with Audrey. Audrey wasn’t a real character without Pacey as a BF.

 Jen & Jack & Grams seem to have the only actual relationship on this show this season. 
 

Ive got one episode left before I start the double series finale. 

[Scarlett45]

Sitting down to watch the series finale. 
 

We got the original theme song y’all!!!!

The wedding dress & hairstyle Joey was wearing in the fantasy wedding sequence was SO 2003!

 

Okay so now that I have finished the series. 

I still feel like what Dawson & Joey had was beautiful. I understand better than I did at 17 why they didn’t end up together. The deep love and affection they had for each other as childhood best friends doesn’t mean they should be life partners.

But I still am not attracted to Pacey and wouldn’t have put them together. Pacey just hero worshipped Joey so much and I didn’t see him mature all that much. 
 

The Andi scenes were not included in the Netflix episodes but I saw them on YouTube. 
 

Michelle Williams was a phenomenal actress and Jen as a character was ROBBED.