Eyewitness - General Discussion

[bosawks]

Well, damn.....

[sjohnson]

This show really is kind of murder-y, isn't it? Thought it was going to be more suspense, but the bodies are stacking up.

[Lilly77]

It is very murder-y.  You'd think with this number of bodies that they have there would be more than the  FBI in town.  

Really struggling to see why Philip is  putting up with Lukas at all after these last two episodes.  

[Irlandesa]

I agree.  But I'm glad Philip came somewhat clean at the end of this episode so we can have some movement on that secret.

How did Ryan fake the DNA?  I know he picked up Mithat's DNA but that wasn't sperm so he couldn't have planted it.  And if he wanted to make sure the DNA in the girl was traced to Mithat, he would have to add his own DNA in the system but just under Mithat's name. 

[sjohnson]

6 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

How did Ryan fake the DNA?  I know he picked up Mithat's DNA but that wasn't sperm so he couldn't have planted it.  And if he wanted to make sure the DNA in the girl was traced to Mithat, he would have to add his own DNA in the system but just under Mithat's name. 

Ryan's DNA is in the system, as I understand it, so that an investigator's contamination of a crime scene can be identified for instance. Thus, Ryan took the sample Helen gave him and diverted it, probably destroyed it. He then just forwards the sample he swiped on to the FBI lab for testing. I doubt the DNA lab was told that it was a sperm sample that Helen took. 

If someone with the authority were to look into it, I imagine the gross falsification of chain of custody records could only have been done by Ryan. They ask Helen if that's her signature, she says no, and it was a different kind of sample to boot. And the autopsy people confirm her story about that. But, who's going to look into it?

As to Lukas, for one thing, helping Lukas distracts Philip from his share of guilt in Tommy and Tracy's deaths. Lukas isn't just being an asshole, he is genuinely distraught, and Philip knows this, because he's got the same feelings, he's just used to displacing them into caring for someone else, previously his mother. To my eyes, he's nowhere near as high maintenance yet as Mom. For another huge thing, Lukas saved Philip's life. He is the noble hero on a motorcycle instead of a white horse. And lastly of course, although the show is coy about this, Philip is getting laid, if only the overnight. That's big at any age, but especially so when the lure of the unknown and the thrill of novelty hasn't worn off. 

[kat165]

14 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Philip is getting laid

Is he? I haven't gotten the impression that they've gone that far yet.

[Irlandesa]

15 minutes ago, kat165 said:

Is he? I haven't gotten the impression that they've gone that far yet.

Yeah me neither.  Given their story, that seems like a pretty big thing to skip over.

[Lilly77]

I didn't think they had either.  I think they 'd show more of a build up to it, at least, given the shows focus on them and their relationship.

Curious to see where they go next with things.  I can't take much more of Lukas treating Philip badly as I find it hard to watch.  Hopefully Philip telling what they saw will change things up.

[sjohnson]

7 hours ago, kat165 said:

Is he? I haven't gotten the impression that they've gone that far yet.

I suppose it's possible Lukas and Philip wandered the streets of New York City, talking, all night after they left the club, rather than take a cheap motel room. Or maybe they overnighted at Philip's mother's apartment? Or possibly Philip's "drink" took him till six o'clock in the morning?

But given the choice between basic cable not showing simulated sex between two guys and having it happen off screen, or those alternatives, I'm afraid I'm going with the show being coy about it.

[NorthstarATL]

I really thought the show was going to team Helen and Bella's father together, so I was surprised as to how that all played out. Disappointed, too. I thought she'd see through the deceit on Ryan's part, but, then, Bella's father's overprotectiveness could be misread as incesty with the proper DNA push. I still maintain that he had her phone, though, which I was sure would have been brought up when he and Helen were talking. If Helen finds THAT, perhaps there's a clue pointing to Ryan on it.

 The FBI agent is WAY more forgiving of her sister than  I would be! And considering that she jeopardized her career (and Helen's) to reunite Sis and her kid, that kid sure didn't get the best end of that deal!

 Ditto poor Phillip! I know the dating pool is shallow, but Lukas is NOT worth his time! I GOT the closeted thing. I GOT the freaking out. I even got the physicality sublimating other physicality. I CAN'T get with the drugs and stealing. Especially with what Phillip's gone through with his mother. Lukas grew up with one parent, and they don't appear to have a ton of money. You'd think he might be tougher. (Oh, and that lie about Rose and the abortion is probably going to bite him in the ass as well!) Glad Phillip came out with some of it at the end. Hoping maybe now Helen can pry the FULL story out of him.

[sugarbaker design]

On 11/14/2016 at 1:20 AM, Lilly77 said:

Really struggling to see why Philip is  putting up with Lukas at all after these last two episodes.  

Really?  I've seen TV characters and real people put up with much worse when it came to love.

[atlanticslide]

13 hours ago, NorthstarATL said:

Lukas grew up with one parent, and they don't appear to have a ton of money. You'd think he might be tougher.

Actually I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be fairly well off - Phillip called him a spoiled rich boy in the first episode, and it looks like Lukas and his father live in a pretty nice house with a lot of surrounding land. Seems like his father is paying for Lukas's motocross hobby, and Lukas has an air of "rich popular kid" at school.

[kat165]

Thanks, sjohnson.

[sjohnson]

8 hours ago, kat165 said:

Thanks, sjohnson.

You're welcome.  But I could still be wrong. After all, there is a kind of TV writing where if the characters wander off camera, they just don't exist. So it's just my deduction.

The Waldenbecks have a huge amount of land. I don't know what lake or river Gabe likes to row on, but the one the boys threw the gun into appears to be their private property.

Edited November 16, 2016 by sjohnson

[WendyCR72]

Helen is pulled away from her search for the murder weapon by Kamilah, who needs her help in finding a missing Sita. Lukas nears his dream sponsorship, but securing it may require an act of betrayal.

[sjohnson]

Yet another body? And Helen's close call? These writers are bloody minded!

If Lukas doesn't tell Helen Mithad wasn't the guy so that she isn't astonished about how Mithad wasn't the only guy with Bella, I call shenanigans. It should prime her to wonder how the FBI could come up with Mithad's DNA. Perhaps she'll start by wondering if there was contamination?

Also, it's hard to believe that Kamilah wasn't interested in why Sita killed Mithad. (It was because she was the one who pissed off Mithad with the failure of her op to kill Bella's girlfriend. Now we can assume she was paid in drugs, the supply Mithad wanted returned after he didn't get the goods, namely, Dead Bella's Boy Friend.) This unexpected disinterest is awfully convenient for stalling solutions/providing further opportunities for dead bodies. Angel knows, but does he want to cop to knowledge of a murder for hire plot?  

Although both boys are full of young love, and folly (but I repeat myself,) Lukas is so flighty it was easy to believe his deranged behavior and his coming to his senses. I'm surprised the yearbook doesn't caption Lukas' photo "drama queen." Not sure there isn't a touch of misogyny in Rose's cluelessness. The boys have the lack of perspective and intense emotions, but Rose is written as dense.

Edited November 21, 2016 by sjohnson

[Lilly77]

Rose is written as dense, and she's hard to empathize with.  Usually I would see a female character who was being lied to, filmed without her knowledge, having a sex tape distributed and being manipulated by her 'boyfriend' for his own ends and be outraged on her behalf - however, she is such a flat character and seems so nasty, not to mention dense, that I just completely overlook how she is being treated.

Lukas is just so awful for most of this episode  He might have come to the realisation at the end that he had to do what was right, but being so self-absorbed since this began makes it hard to believe he is worth all this drama, and it really is too little too late.  Phillip looks out for him, Lukas looks out for himself.  Not the basis of a great relationship.  I think your 'drama queen' tag is pretty on-point here.

Gabe seems reluctant to fully oppose Helen.  Helen does indeed seem to want to believe the worst about everyone - and be almost triumphant when she is right about something bad.

[Swansong]

4 hours ago, Lilly77 said:

Rose is written as dense, and she's hard to empathize with.  

Yeah. She isn't exactly written to be sympathetic which I guess wouldn't matter if she was written to be interesting.

 

Quote

Lukas is just so awful for most of this episode  He might have come to the realisation at the end that he had to do what was right, but being so self-absorbed since this began makes it hard to believe he is worth all this drama, and it really is too little too late.  Phillip looks out for him, Lukas looks out for himself.  Not the basis of a great relationship.  I think your 'drama queen' tag is pretty on-point here.

I had the same thought. He's just so over the top. Not just lying about the murder, but lying about the drugs. I'm glad he came clean and I know he save Philip's life, but he really hasn't been worth all the drama and despair he seems to have put Philip through.

[NorthstarATL]

Phillip's best bet was to get the heck out of there! Did Lukas ever name the overdosed BF on the couch as "Billy", because I thought it was a leap on Helen's part to assume the BIG LIE when I just assumed that Phillip's mother had many boyfriends, and that Billy is the current one. Also, the next leap was that EVERYTHING Phillip said was a lie, and, rather than confront him and allow him to explain or bury himself deeper, they bring in Lukas and his father to what should have been a family meeting.

 Aside from the dramatic effect of Lukas dropping Phillip at home, I'd love to have seen how he managed that without looking like Phillip was his responsibility, which he'd been actively avoiding. I don't care if he came clean with the gun at the end. He let Phillip twist in the wind and look like an idiot, while he still apparently has a drug problem and is using the GF as a supplier. Run, Phillip! Run!

  I thought Sita was going to drive off when we saw Kamala place the baby in the carrier, or hit her sister over the head, so the swan dive was only surprising as the method.

[sjohnson]

As aggravating as Lukas' hysteria over being outed in the first episode was, it does seem he's the one who really grasps that confessing all now, is confessing to what happened to Tommy and Tracy. It's true Philip didn't know them for years as Lukas' likely did. But it seems to me that Philip is displacing a lot of his anxieties about their deaths into taking care of Lukas, rather than dealing with that. Lukas may be volatile, but dealing with him is still much easier than dealing with that. Also, I thought Philip believes Lukas is potentially suicidal. Part of that is probably projecting some of his own anxiety, and part of that is because Lukas just goes with the flow when he feels an unruly emotion, but I have to think it's not an impossibility. 

Lukas' thinking the guy was going to vanish, run away from the scene of the crime, like moving to an non-extradition country, really was common sense. The victim/killer being an amazing supervillain like in a TV show who could come so close to finding them and killing them, not so much. Not being able to deal with people you know dying because you made such a simple, self-serving mistake? It just seems appropriate to cut some slack even to a drama queen when there's real drama.

[Lilly77]

I just feel like I've been cutting him slack for too many episodes in a row now - but I have hopes for next week showing a different side of the character.  I work with teens and so many abused teens allow themselves to be emotionally manipulated or treated badly by others who claim to care about them, and I guess I just see that in how their relationship has been presented so far.  Right from the beginning he's just been so focused on himself, like when Philip turns up saying that he's seen the killer on the bus, and Lukas' first thought was, 'and you led him here?'  

[sjohnson]

^^^That's actually a good example of why it's so confusing to just read Lukas as selfish, I think. Lukas could see that Philip wasn't murdered. But Philip (seemingly) putting both witnesses together for the killer would have been a threat to both, not just to Lukas. If it was just Lukas being a self-centered coward, wouldn't he would have stayed hidden in the closet in the cabin?

[Lilly77]

I've no doubt that the writers did not intend us to read Lukas as totally selfish, and for the story to be really engaging he cannot be, however how I feel (and looking at the comments here and on other boards) most of the time that's how people have interpreted him - for the better part of six episodes.  I do think his softening could have come a little sooner or he could have been  played a bit differently to show more of him being conflicted about what was going on, to avoid repeatedly giving and reinforcing that impression.

Coming out of the pantry in the cabin could be interpreted as much an act of self-preservation as anything: once the bad guy had discovered one person hiding he would surely look for others.  However, I didn't take it that way.  Actually almost everything Lukas has done that is seen as a positive could still be construed as self-interest, even admitting he was there to Helen as not wanting to lose Philip himself rather than thinking about the implications for Philip's life.  We needed more of the conflict when he actually was committing selfish acts to reinforce that his other, more positive actions were actually not selfish.

A lot for me depends on how he acts next episode. 

[sjohnson]

14 hours ago, Lilly77 said:

I've no doubt that the writers did not intend us to read Lukas as totally selfish, and for the story to be really engaging he cannot be, however how I feel (and looking at the comments here and on other boards) most of the time that's how people have interpreted him - for the better part of six episodes.  I do think his softening could have come a little sooner or he could have been  played a bit differently to show more of him being conflicted about what was going on, to avoid repeatedly giving and reinforcing that impression.

Moral ambiguity like this, where motives seem to be so mixed, isn't very popular, I think.  The kind where circumstances tragically force the protagonist to do something wrong for a higher good, or have left the protagonist so scarred they can only be BAMFs instead of nice like their gushy insides, seem to me to be popular with Hollywood, as a kind of holy writ. Your observations may be dead on target, and Lukas is being written for his comeuppance. I am not spoiled even on the foreign series. But these writers are fully capable of finishing with a dead Lukas...or a dead Philip to leave Lukas with a life forever bereft of true love. 

A purely objectvie view I think sees Philip as entranced with Philip's way of life. Which is by Philip's standards a wealthy one. Lukas at one point pacified Philip by sharing his motorcycle. That was both an intimacy and a bribe.

[WendyCR72]

Lukas and Philip finally embrace their romance. Helen seeks Kamilah's help in protecting Lukas after she discovers evidence that the cabin shooter is alive and dangerous.

[kat165]

Candall, I'm not finding an excessive amount of gay bashing. It's mostly just the school kids and we don't see much of them. Although one character's father will probably not be open to it but he's in the dark so far. I really looked forward to this show but now am disappointed. No interest in the motorcyle gang, the drug storyline or the FBI. One agent in particular needs to go. But the small town sheriff, her deputy, her life situation and the two boys are interesting and worth watching for. So its a toss up. If you can check out one ep and see if it interests you.

[Irlandesa]

On 11/12/2016 at 2:13 PM, candall said:

I'm out of DVR space because I've been all-election all-the-time for quite a while--is this show worth saving and bingeing? 

From the comments, it seems kind of doubtful, since I already have to venture into nearby Tinyville hoping I won't bump into any of those good ol' fashioned small-town values from, say, the '50's.

I forgot to respond to this earlier but I think this show is ridiculously bingeable and I feel that way every week.  I kind of wish I had saved it to binge.  The structure of the show is great in that every episode ends with some sort of suspenseful event, revelation or cliffhanger that makes me want to move onto the next episode immediately.

Are there some frustrating things like people keeping secrets they shouldn't?  Or side stories that may not be that important?  Yes but I think being able to binge would take care of the former issue and even the latter issue doesn't overwhelm the series. 

As for "tinyville" 50s values.  The small-town aspect is meant to give it the sleepytown "murders never happen here"/"everyone knows everyone" vibe but I don't think they've hit us over the head with 'small town values.'  There's one character who is openly gay, although we don't know if he talks about it much at school.  He seems to be more of an outsider because he's new--not because of his sexuality.  And another character is closeted because he's afraid of what his father would say.  And maybe school too.  But we've seen him afraid of how his father would react to a lot of things and overall, I think the father character's reactions are more reasonable and don't necessarily substantiate those fears. I don't know if this show is just failing in its characterization of the father or if it's highlighting how dramatic teens can be when they view their parents.

[Irlandesa]

Aargh, I hate when they kill dogs.  Hate!  And I don't get why Ryan was going to try to kill Lukas at the FBI agents farm unless he didn't know it was hers.  Did it really need to happen then with the dog barking?  Especially since he now knows who the eyewitness is.  Otherwise, that was a pretty suspenseful last few minutes.

I'm ready for Philip to be exposed that he was with Lukas sine he's the one who can identify the shooter.  I'm surprised Lukas didn't bring the paper to Philip to double check or at least ask him for a description. 

[sjohnson]

Lukas I think has half-convinced himself too that Mithad was the killer. The thought has crossed my mind that Lukas is being written like the damsel in peril in a rather old fashioned movie where girls are silly. 

I am a little irritated that Helen's fixation on really solving the case doesn't focus on why the Vescovis were trying to kill (as she thought,) Mithad. The timing suggests the falling out between the Vescovis and Mithad were due to the massacre. Even more to the point, why would it be necessary to grab Mithad while he was half undressed, stick him in a trunk and take him some where. Gun him down on the street. (By the way, the murder scene would make more sense if Ryan and the boys were actually naked. For one thing, how did Ryan get such a good look at the back of Philip's jacket? And Ryan getting caught in flagrante would be more plausible than thinking the nitwits took him down when he wasn't, uh, preoccupied.) The physical evidence seemed conclusive, but what happened is still very much a mystery. She could have been more clearly portrayed as knowing this, I think. 

As for the dead dog, these writers have to kill *something*

Edited November 28, 2016 by sjohnson

[Hana Chan]

When Lukas flinched at his father's anger over what's been going on, my first thought is "that explains a lot". The way he seemed to prepare himself to be hit, refused to eat what his father had prepared for him and then making sure to put the bottle of booze up in the cabinet on the highest shelf more than indicates to me that this is not an isolated incident and it explains a lot about his behavior since the beginning. How he pushes people away to protect himself and hides and tries to self-medicate. It's all the hallmarks of someone who suffered at least some physical and emotional abuse. It doesn't excuse some of his behavior, but it certainly explains it.

Gabe wins all the prizes for trying to actually being the father and support that Philip needs right now and not letting Helen run roughshod over him. Yes, making the decision to give their foster a more permanent sense of belonging without going through her first was a bit presumptuous (and the instant he did it, I knew that he hadn't spoken with her about it), but she has her head completely in this case and has been neglecting the home front a bit. And it made all the difference for Philip. And her deputy has a big mouth.

Ryan can drop dead any instant now. Bad enough that he's a cold blooded murderer who's now targeting a teenage boy, but he killed a dog. That's just plain unforgivable in my book.

[Irlandesa]

22 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

When Lukas flinched at his father's anger over what's been going on, my first thought is "that explains a lot". The way he seemed to prepare himself to be hit, refused to eat what his father had prepared for him and then making sure to put the bottle of booze up in the cabinet on the highest shelf more than indicates to me that this is not an isolated incident and it explains a lot about his behavior since the beginning.

I feel like this show is giving me a Rashomon effect when it comes to Lukas and his father.  He did act like an abused child in this episode.  A lot of the things he wants to keep secret appear to be driven out of fear of his father's reaction.  However, the show has had many opportunities to show the father as the monster I would think he is based on what Lukas says/does but I can't really recall a moment where I thought the father was beyond the pale.  The closest was in this episode when he threw something behind him. But they could have had him hit Lukas to drive home the point he's bad but didn't.  Otherwise, his opinions appear to be based on what he thinks is best for his son and not altogether unreasonable.  He wants Lukas away from Philip but based on the things the two have done together and what Lukas has said about Philip, I don't entirely blame him.

[Lilly77]

At this point I'm not sure either whether the father is bad or just Lukas is afraid of his reaction.

As soon as they had Phillip be afraid of water, I knew they were going with the part of Oyvetine that I liked the least.  I was hoping they would ignore or change it.  It will happen in the next episode or two.

So glad to see Lukas sort himself out a bit and the boys establish some kind of a caring relationship.

[kat165]

Philip doesn't seem to be treated well at school, but mostly we're not seeing much of it. I think more time at school would be interesting, but instead we're seeing a lot of the creepy FBI guy.

I agree with Irlandesa, we're not seeing much if anything of the small town values.

[NorthstarATL]

On 11/28/2016 at 8:53 PM, Lilly77 said:

As soon as they had Phillip be afraid of water, I knew they were going with the part of Oyvetine that I liked the least.  I was hoping they would ignore or change it.  It will happen in the next episode or two

I didn't realize until you posted that that this is a remake! I will have to adjust my opinions, then, since the folks behind this are beholden to other material, and perhaps the weakest performances are aping others'. That said, the no-swimming thing was a bit too obvious a foreshadowing. A chance to cavort half-naked with your current obsession, especially as a teen boy, will override all sorts of precautions!

  I noted the flinch with Lukas' father as well. Just because every interaction doesn't involve violence does not mean that there wasn't one in the past that has established how they are around each other from that point on. Nice acting on the Lukas' portrayer's part there.

  I'm torn on the fostering thing. I think that once you open your home and family you should expect that there is not a cut-off point. I know a family that took in a kid whose parents had kicked him out, and he's been a part of the family for over forty years. Everyone refers to him by his full name, with surname, purely because one of the boys has the same first name, but, otherwise, he's part OF that family unit. OTOH, Helen should have been consulted, and using her work hours against seemed passive-aggressive to me.

  My biggest problem with the show, though, is that Agent Kane has all the cards. I hate how trusting Helen and Tony are of him, but I can also understand their position. They are a small town department, and they can use his resources, but that means all evidence and leads, etc. sift through him. There ought to be one thing, no matter how small, that triggers one of them into being wary, just to make this not so one-sided.

  That said, what Kane did with the dog was stupid. Not only can a dog be distracted, but a dog's attention can be explained away, as Gabe and Helen were already doing. Plus, Kane would know the dog was only temporary had he done his homework. I hope that this might have been the slip up that will bring him down.

[kat165]

I wish the FBI agent - Ryan Kane?? - was shot instead of the dog. That guy gives me the creeps. Plus he shoots dogs.

[Lilly77]

Worse, he snapped the dog's neck with his hands.  He could have avoided the dog.  He is so creepy - that final scene when Helen was calling him for help and he was standing there behind a tree listening to her was chilling.  I still am not a hundred percent sure why he felt he had to embark on this whole death rampage anyway, except for his being psychotic...there must have been other ways to hush certain things up.

[Silje]

In case anyone wants to watch the trailer for the original show, here it is with subtitles: 

[WendyCR72]

Ryan romances Kamilah to get close to Lukas. As she tracks the killer, Helen develops an unexpected emotional connection with Ryan. Meanwhile, Gabe uncovers a clue to his wife's mysterious past.

[Hana Chan]

Well, Lukas getting shot wasn't totally unexpected, not with the boys getting out of Kamilah's sight for a grand total of five or so minutes. Ryan is scrambling, but he's still a step ahead of everyone else if only because he's on the receiving end of everyone's info. He's able to manipulate things just enough to stay on top, if just for now.

But Ryan is getting a bit sloppy, and cocky. He basically confessed to Helen all about meeting Bella and how things ended badly (understatement of the millennium, at least for Bella), and that's the move of someone who thinks that he's either never going to get caught or wants to get caught. Going after Lukas just upped the stakes against him.

The boys were sweet together, and I'm waiting for Helen to notice that Philip's text to Lukas wasn't just an innocent message between friends. Someone is really missing a seriously huge clue here.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Hana Chan

[Irlandesa]

48 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Ryan is scrambling, but he's still a step ahead of everyone else if only because he's on the receiving end of everyone's info. He's able to manipulate things just enough to stay on top, if just for now.

Right.  This. I like this show, find it suspenseful and would like a second season but a lot of what powers the suspense is the fact that Ryan is being fed all the info. If anything, it's not about how the investigation will bring the cops closer to the bad guy but how they're lucky to avoid being completely shut down by his hand.  A second season couldn't rely on the same tricks. 

I wonder how much Gabe and Helen know about Philip and Lukas.  I don't think Helen was completely oblivious about their relationship.  She might be but even if she knows, it's still another step to connect Philp as also being at the scene.

I hate myself for finding Ryan really hot in this episode but damn...I did, especially when he was in seductve mode at the pool with Kamilah.

I don't know why the kids haven't at least tried Philip describing the killer to Lukas and have Lukas parrot it to the sketch artist. Or come up with some kind of signal where they could be in the same room and Philip could give Lukas hints?

Edited December 5, 2016 by Irlandesa

[calvinshobbes]

Kamilah is the worst FBI agent ever. How does she even have a job after her sister and then this? Just horrible. 

[sjohnson]

Think Helen knew instantly about Philip/Luke on seeing the picture, but Helen doesn't think much about Philip, so far as I can tell. Gabe, who does, hasn't a clue. 

Fortunately for the human gene pool, it was the smarter sister who had the baby. 

Philip trying to give hints to Lukas to describe the killer is Isabelle Huppert and Steve Guttenberg in The Bedroom Window. 

[Hana Chan]

I don't blame Kamilah completely because she is being manipulated by the one person that she has every reason to trust - her superior at the FBI, who as far as she knows has given her no reason to be suspicious about. She hasn't seen Ryan doing all the murderous and shady shady stuff that we have. She (and Helen) haven't managed to put the pieces together that the one person who could have been at the center of all their cases is Ryan, and that gives him the power to manipulate things to divert suspicion away from him. The dirty cop is usually the last to be suspected, especially one as high up on the food chain as Ryan is.

But that doesn't excuse her stupidity in letting Lukas and Philip go play with Lukas's new bike out of her direct sight. Not when Helen suspected that the killer has already been on her property and knows that Lukas is their witness. Even if she'd gone with them, there would have been no way she could have protected him from being shot from a distance. Keeping Lukas at the house was the only way to really protect him and she totally blew that.

I'm trying to decide if Ryan is being cocky or sloppy with the way he's all but confessing about his relationship with Bella to Helen. She's got a lot of pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, but doesn't know what the picture is supposed to be and Ryan is still in a position to keep shuffling to board and sending her on false leads. But going after Lukas may be that step too far that unravels his hold on things. Especially if Philip starts talking in order to protect Lukas. That was the one variable that Ryan didn't know about.

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, sjohnson said:

 Gabe, who does, hasn't a clue.

Gabe did see Philip sneak into Lukas's bedroom.  Maybe he didn't think anything of it but I would think he'd be a bit suspicious given their whole drama-filled friends/not friends saga and knowing that Phil is gay.  

[Lilly77]

I think that gabe and Helen both know about the boys now. Lukas was all but kissing Phillip in that text photo and gabe smirked when he saw Phillip go to lukas's bedroom. However I don't think they have put it together with the fishing cabin - as far as they know Lukas was still punching Phillip in the face at that stage. 

Lukas lack of concern for Phillip got on my nerves this episode. He is the eyewitness at the moment, but Phillip actually saw the guy and was seen. He's supposed to be in love with him - a little care on his part would be nice. 

Ryan is just so creepy. He would be quite happy to kill everyone there to get away without being caught. Helen has to catch on soon. I wonder if he will go after Lukas in the hospital?

[sjohnson]

Seems the show agrees that Lukas is a weepy, hysterical pussy and a selfish lover...so it shot him. Always dramatically satisfying when the shit people get what they deserve? Seems a little harsh to me, but Hollywood is a moralizing place, if not necessarily a moral one. But then I tend to think of all youth as tending to the callow, including youth in love. Maybe that's a little harsh?

Must admit I'm not at all interested in Helen's trauma. 

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Lilly77 said:

Lukas lack of concern for Phillip got on my nerves this episode. He is the eyewitness at the moment, but Phillip actually saw the guy and was seen.

The irony is that by keeping quiet, Philip is completely safe. Ryan knows nothing about him, especially that Philip is the one who can ID him on sight.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, sjohnson said:

Seems the show agrees that Lukas is a weepy, hysterical pussy and a selfish lover...so it shot him. Always dramatically satisfying when the shit people get what they deserve? Seems a little harsh to me, but Hollywood is a moralizing place, if not necessarily a moral one. But then I tend to think of all youth as tending to the callow, including youth in love. Maybe that's a little harsh?

I don't see the shooting as some moral statement. (And yes, even if I've found Lukas selfish at times, I still think he's just a teen and not someone awful.)

I think it's going to be mostly plot driven where Lukas stood up to prevent Philip from leaving by coming clean that he was in the cabin, I think we're going to see Philip step up and come clean about being there, now that Lukas is out of commission, in order to get the guy.

That's what I was thinking of during the shooting. Not 'down with Lukas' and I don't think the show wanted us to think that. I was also thinking about how bold it was of Ryan.  That was not an easy shot.  He had about one chance to make it and in doing so, he gave away his skills as a marksman.  It should narrow the suspect  field considerably and I think Helen should start considering military/former military.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Irlandesa

[Lilly77]

I don't think the shooting was some moral statement - because it was in the original, including the Phillip character's fear of the water. 

I think that Phillip coming face to face with the killer is going to basicallly be how things are resolved in the finale. I am curious to see whether Helen figures things out more or less on her own before that. 

[Adeejay]

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 0:04 AM, Irlandesa said:

I hate myself for finding Ryan really hot in this episode but damn...I did, especially when he was in seductve mode at the pool with Kamilah.

Warren Christie is hot, even when playing a killer.  Something about him reminds me of Brad Pitt, but I can't quite put my finger on it.