JonBenet Ramsey

[ghoulina]

I think a big part of the problem with searching the house and retaining evidence was the fact that LE initially believed they were dealing with a kidnapping. To their knowledge, the child wasn't there and both parents were, so they had little reason to suspect anything hinky, although I think a few of them did, just based on demeanor. Once the body was found, SO many people had trampled through that house, it was almost too late to treat it as a true crime scene. I don't know that that was part of the Ramsey's original thought process for staging the kidnapping, but it sure worked out in their favor. 

[AZChristian]

9 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

I may have to break down and buy Lawrence Schiler's book. AZChristian, I have read two books on this and I don't believe the golf bag was ever examined before it was removed from the house. 

Did John Andrew live with his mom?  I'm wondering if he was able to visit more than the average person because Daddy had so much money.  There was unanimous expert opinion that little JonBenét had experienced chronic sexual abuse and in the weeks before her death her bed wetting and soiling returned. Maybe she was stressed and/or wanted to repel John Andrew.  First I thought maybe Burke was abusing her, but when I learned that the suitcase contained a blanket containing John Andrew's semen and a Dr. Seuss book, alarm bells began to ring.  Steve Thomas' book says during Burke's psychological interview (I didn't see it in the excerpt) that Burke "bristled" when the psychologist drank out of his pop can.  So I picture a scenario where on Christmas night John and Burke assembled his new toy, John said he helped Burke get ready for bed, John took something so that John fell asleep very quickly.  Burke never did go to bed. Meanwhile, Patsy is still packing for the trip to Michigan and the cruise and Burke wants a snack.  He gets a bowl of pineapple.  JB hears Mom opening drawers, etc. and hears somebody in the kitchen and goes to see what's going on   She picks out a piece of fruit from Burke's bowl and he snaps. All week he's been hearing about how beautiful/special his sister is and he snaps.  He hits her with the flashlight.  Thomas' book says you can hear everything from anywhere in the house (or you could before Rev. Schuller 's daughter renovated).  Patsy had to have heard that.  I understand--I guess--that she wanted to protect her son but everything that happened after that defies explanation. One of the books I read suggested that the garrote was used because the killer didn't want to look at her face.  I'm sure John slept through all that.  Wonder what the statute of limitations is on aiding and abetting.

I believe that John Andrew attended college in Boulder and had his own room at the Ramsey's house.  He was on semester break and was not in Boulder on the night of the murder.  And his DNA was not found on JB.  They apparently had a lot of house guests, and John Andrew's semen could easily have gotten on that blanket just because he slept in the house frequently.

I saw the video of Burke "bristling" when the psychologist took a drink out of his can.  I had never put 2+2 together before your post, but his horror at the psychologist's action definitely showed how possessive and (can we say) germophobic he was for a young kid.  He almost yelled at the psychologist, "Look what you did; that was mine.  I can't drink out of that can now."  It makes more sense now as to whether her stealing a bit of pineapple might have set him off.  And as I was just discussing this with Mr. AZC, he said, "Wow.  I wonder if that psychologist took the drink out of Burke's can ON PURPOSE to see what his reaction would be."  Yep.  Wow!

One of the major travesties of justice in this case is that the Grand Jury DID indict John and Patsy on charges of child abuse because they allowed their child to stay in a environment that they knew was dangerous and could cause her death.  The statute of limitations has run on that, but I doubt that John's in any danger of being charged with aiding and abetting unless Burke is actually tried and found guilty.  I don't know how Alex Hunter sleeps at night after having misled the country into believing that there were no indictments handed down.  Shame on him for selling out.

[Ilovecomputers]

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I believe that John Andrew attended college in Boulder and had his own room at the Ramsey's house.  He was on semester break and was not in Boulder on the night of the murder.  And his DNA was not found on JB.  They apparently had a lot of house guests, and John Andrew's semen could easily have gotten on that blanket just because he slept in the house frequently.

Right. I wasn't suggesting he'd had a hand in her death, but I was wondering if police ever looked at him as a suspect in her abuse.  JB must have had a miserable life.

A recurring theme in the books I have read on this case is that the police had to tippy-toe around the Ramseys' legal team and allow them to be present when certain things were analyzed. There was a pubic hair mentioned that went unexamined because the FBI would not agree to the Ramseys' "experts" being present during the analysis.

I agree with you about the psychologist.  She was trying to push some buttons during the interview I saw.  Also fascinating was the drawing Burke did of his family where Mom was a tiny figure--smaller/insignificant to Burke--Dad was in a cockpit far away and JB was not included at all.

I agree with you about Alex Hunter. The grand jury did vote to indict and he not only failed to charge them, but he misled the police and public about that. Mary Lacy got too close to the Ramseys and lost her objectivity, as did Lou Smits.  How does Mary sleep?  How does John Ramsey sleep?  With the 20 year anniversary of JB's death approaching, it's too bad they couldn't get a Title III trap and trace in place at the Ramsey home and at her gravesite and see what would be overheard, but I know that they consider the matter closed. 

John Ramsey's reward for information about the death of JB reminds me of the one O.J. Simpson offered at the time of his ex-wife's death.  Didn't O.J. say he thought some foreign drug cartel had something to do with her murder?  Strange that Patsy would mention in one of her CNN interviews about the Simpson and Susan Smith cases rather than, say, the Polly Klaas case where it was indeed a stranger abduction/murder.

[AZChristian]

And Mark Klaas - Polly's father - practically lived at the police station, constantly pushing them to find out what happened to her.  What a difference between the behavior of an innocent father and . . . 

[Ilovecomputers]

Exactly!

[glowlights]

5 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I believe that John Andrew attended college in Boulder and had his own room at the Ramsey's house.  He was on semester break and was not in Boulder on the night of the murder.  And his DNA was not found on JB.  They apparently had a lot of house guests, and John Andrew's semen could easily have gotten on that blanket just because he slept in the house frequently.

Wasn't it John Andrew's room where they found the backpack with some rope?

[AZChristian]

Yes, but I don't think the rope matched the rope used in the garrote.

[Mittengirl]

Is Alex Hunter still alive?  If so, has he made any comment about the grand jury thing?

[AZChristian]

Yes, he is still alive.  AFAIK, he has not made any comment.  But if I were him, I wouldn't either.  Better to stay silent and be thought an idiot than to speak and remove all doubt.

[Joe Jitsu913]

1 hour ago, Mittengirl said:

Is Alex Hunter still alive?  If so, has he made any comment about the grand jury thing?

He is still alive but won't comment on it due to some law or statute that prevents him from doing so. 

It was featured on the show 'The Case of Jonbenet Ramsey'.  

[Joe Jitsu913]

7 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

Right. I wasn't suggesting he'd had a hand in her death, but I was wondering if police ever looked at him as a suspect in her abuse.  JB must have had a miserable life.

A recurring theme in the books I have read on this case is that the police had to tippy-toe around the Ramseys' legal team and allow them to be present when certain things were analyzed. There was a pubic hair mentioned that went unexamined because the FBI would not agree to the Ramseys' "experts" being present during the analysis.

I agree with you about the psychologist.  She was trying to push some buttons during the interview I saw.  Also fascinating was the drawing Burke did of his family where Mom was a tiny figure--smaller/insignificant to Burke--Dad was in a cockpit far away and JB was not included at all.

I agree with you about Alex Hunter. The grand jury did vote to indict and he not only failed to charge them, but he misled the police and public about that. Mary Lacy got too close to the Ramseys and lost her objectivity, as did Lou Smits.  How does Mary sleep?  How does John Ramsey sleep?  With the 20 year anniversary of JB's death approaching, it's too bad they couldn't get a Title III trap and trace in place at the Ramsey home and at her gravesite and see what would be overheard, but I know that they consider the matter closed. 

John Ramsey's reward for information about the death of JB reminds me of the one O.J. Simpson offered at the time of his ex-wife's death.  Didn't O.J. say he thought some foreign drug cartel had something to do with her murder?  Strange that Patsy would mention in one of her CNN interviews about the Simpson and Susan Smith cases rather than, say, the Polly Klaas case where it was indeed a stranger abduction/murder.

I interpret the drawing to mean this:

 

John being in the airplane = John being far away on a business trip or at the office. He was a CEO of a corporation so he was probably away from home  most of the time. 

Patsy being small or insignificant = this probably has to do with the fact that she was not Burke's main caregiver for a few years. She was ill due to her cancer treatment and the kids were cared for by Nedra Paugh and various nannies. She also took a special interest in Jonbenet's beauty pageants which,  despite what Patsy or the Ramseys say,  was a very expensive and time consuming hobby. Patsy was so focused on Jonbenet that several of Patsy's friends were considering staging an intervention. 

Jonbenet not being in the picture at all: Obvious jealousy and resentment. She's dead and Burke is  "moving on" with his life. 

[glowlights]

I was flabbergasted to hear Patsy describe the pageant thing as just a couple of Sunday afternoons. Was she delusional or just a damn liar?

That drawing makes me sad for Burke. He was a bit player in his own family's life. I think it would be natural for him to resent JonBenet in life as well as in death.

[AZChristian]

4 hours ago, glowlights said:

I was flabbergasted to hear Patsy describe the pageant thing as just a couple of Sunday afternoons. Was she delusional or just a damn liar?

.

Yes . . . and yes.

[Joe Jitsu913]

12 hours ago, glowlights said:

I was flabbergasted to hear Patsy describe the pageant thing as just a couple of Sunday afternoons. Was she delusional or just a damn liar?

That drawing makes me sad for Burke. He was a bit player in his own family's life. I think it would be natural for him to resent JonBenet in life as well as in death.

Considering JonBenet was to compete in the Little Miss Hawaiian Tropic contest after the holidays. Her costumes were custom made costing upwards of $600 for one dress. She also had a pageant coach whom Patsy was paying $20 per hour to teach Jonbenet how to walk down a runway.  Also, private dance lessons from Kit Andre.  This was a lot of money and seemed to be more of a career for Jonbenet than just a hobby. 

[glowlights]

Thanks! I didn't even know about the upcoming pageant. But just from the little pageant clips I've seen it was obvious JonBenet would have been on a schedule of fittings, coaches, hair and makeup tests, and practice practice practice. Not to mention the public appearances in parades and at the shopping mall. Why should Patsy  lie about that and say it was not a significant part of their life? What does that obvious lie accomplish? Did she want to rewrite family history?

[Ilovecomputers]

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Why should Patsy  lie about that and say it was not a significant part of their life? What does that obvious lie accomplish? Did she want to rewrite family history?

You'd think the Ramseys would have kept their stories straight because John-I-sound-like-I-frequently-inhale-helium Ramsey always tried to push the intruder as someone who stalked JB from all her pageant activities.  The author of Foreign Faction quoted someone (I think it was JB's best friend's mother--the woman who "dared" to speak to the media and then was dropped from the Ramsey inner circle) as saying that JB was asked about all the tiaras, etc. in her room and JB replied, "Oh that's more my mother's hobby than mine."  Patsy also claimed JonBenét started the pageant life because JB saw an ad in a newspaper and expressed an interest in competing.  Yeah, I know when I was a kid I read the entire newspaper--or maybe it was just the funnies. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Ilovecomputers

[glowlights]

11 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

 Patsy also claimed JonBenét started the pageant life because JB saw an ad in a newspaper and expressed an interest in competing.  Yeah, I know when I was a kid I read the entire newspaper--or maybe it was just the funnies. 

That's odd. I distinctly remember an interview in which Patsy said that she went to some sort of pageant reunion (her generation) and JonBenet got excited about it and said she wanted to do pageants, too. Now it was a newspaper ad? The facts should not be this nebulous.

[Joe Jitsu913]

Jombenet started pageant life because Patsy and Nedra Paugh wanted her to.  There wasn't a choice.  Nedra Paugh even stated that if Jonbenet were to rebel against the pageants,  they would make her do it any way: "Jonbenet,  you will!" They had a lot of hope riding on Jonbenet to become Miss America. 

[Ilovecomputers]

The remark about JonBenét's seeing the newspaper ad came from either "Foreign Faction" or "JonBenét"--I read both and can't remember. 

Joe Jitsu913 is correct, though. Thomas' book says JB was starting to rebel against the pageant life. That must have been devastating for Patsy, Grandma and Aunt Paula. 

[glowlights]

It strikes me as a bit hinky that the Ramseys had so many versions of the facts about JonBenets pageant life. Maybe they were just embarrassed because they knew in hindsight how bad it looked and wanted to justify themselves.

It's always sad to think of a little child being pushed too hard. Miss America? Gag.

[Ilovecomputers]

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Maybe they were just embarrassed because they knew in hindsight how bad it looked and wanted to justify themselves.

I think that is exactly right. John seemed to have let Patsy have an unlimited budget for costumes, make up, dance lessons, etc. and he seems to have been an absentee parent and out of touch with what was really going on until after JB's death. He must have been mortified to see the endless montage of videos of his little girl strutting around. Patsy and JB often dressed in identical outfits. I know that is still a common thing to do for some but--as someone who was often dressed in identical clothing to an older sister and often mistaken as a twin--I get irritated just thinking about it. 

Edited November 14, 2016 by Ilovecomputers

[AZChristian]

15 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

I think that is exactly right. John seemed to have let Patsy have an unlimited budget for costumes, make up, dance lessons, etc. and he seems to have been an absentee parent and out of touch with what was really going on until after JB's death. He must have been mortified to see the endless montage of videos of his little girl strutting around.

As an absentee parent, I don't think he gave all of that a second thought until, as you said, the endless montage of videos - and the negative commentary about potentially exposing her to pedophiles, etc.  And if he ever watched even one episode of "Toddlers and Tiaras," he would then finally "get it" as to why everyone was perceiving Patsy as an overbearing, controlling mother.  When we see on T&T how those kids are treated for not cooperating with rehearsals, etc., it's not a far jump to the possi/probability that Patsy might have gone off on her for wetting the bed . . . again.

[glowlights]

Matching outfits??? I mean unless it was a themed party... or if it was JonBenets idea.

Patsy comes off as desperate and tacky. Supposedly she did a lot for the community when they moved to Michigan though. I don't know. She and John rub me the wrong way. 

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

The remark about JonBenét's seeing the newspaper ad came from either "Foreign Faction" or "JonBenét"--I read both and can't remember. 

To clarify, that came from Steve Thomas' book at pp 364-365.  It was a statement made by John Ramsey during a June 1998 police interview. 

Quote

When we see on T&T how those kids are treated for not cooperating with rehearsals, etc., it's not a far jump to the possi/probability that Patsy might have gone off on her for wetting the bed . . . again.

I believe Werner Spitz stated that the first strangulation occurred when JB was grabbed in the front by her shirt collar.  That sounds like parental rage to me.  

One of the strangest things I read in Thomas' book (in a case full of bizarre things) was that when John Ramsey carried JB's body upstairs, Fleet White (who followed behind John) cried out for someone to call an ambulance. Fleet's wife, who was comforting Patsy in the solarium, and others rushed over to see what was going on--all except for Patsy. She had to have known that she was dead!  John found JB's body wrapped in a blanket in the wine cellar, and Fleet said he had earlier checked that room but you had to walk around a slight abutment and he couldn't make out anything in the dark anyway. The light switch wasn't in the same room, but behind the wall in a different room. Weird layout. 

John said he locked himself out the house a couple of times and broke windows to get in. The last time I locked myself out I called a locksmith, but okay. So why doesn't Moneybags ever get the damn windows repaired or replaced?  That wine cellar where JB's body was found was cold and had mold or mildew. Again, why didn't Moneybags ever look after stuff like that?  Does that strike anyone else as odd?

[Joe Jitsu913]

6 hours ago, glowlights said:

Matching outfits??? I mean unless it was a themed party... or if it was JonBenets idea.

Patsy comes off as desperate and tacky. Supposedly she did a lot for the community when they moved to Michigan though. I don't know. She and John rub me the wrong way. 

The matching outfits was a point of contention for Patsy on the night Jonbenet was murdered. Apparently, she wanted JBR to  wear a matching outfit to the Whites  but JBR didn't want to and they had a disagreement about it. 

[Joe Jitsu913]

3 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

To clarify, that came from Steve Thomas' book at pp 364-365.  It was a statement made by John Ramsey during a June 1998 police interview. 

I believe Werner Spitz stated that the first strangulation occurred when JB was grabbed in the front by her shirt collar.  That sounds like parental rage to me.  

One of the strangest things I read in Thomas' book (in a case full of bizarre things) was that when John Ramsey carried JB's body upstairs, Fleet White (who followed behind John) cried out for someone to call an ambulance. Fleet's wife, who was comforting Patsy in the solarium, and others rushed over to see what was going on--all except for Patsy. She had to have known that she was dead!  John found JB's body wrapped in a blanket in the wine cellar, and Fleet said he had earlier checked that room but you had to walk around a slight abutment and he couldn't make out anything in the dark anyway. The light switch wasn't in the same room, but behind the wall in a different room. Weird layout. 

John said he locked himself out the house a couple of times and broke windows to get in. The last time I locked myself out I called a locksmith, but okay. So why doesn't Moneybags ever get the damn windows repaired or replaced?  That wine cellar where JB's body was found was cold and had mold or mildew. Again, why didn't Moneybags ever look after stuff like that?  Does that strike anyone else as odd?

It is odd considering the Ramseys gave out house keyes to their friends including the Whites. Why not just swing by their house and ask for a key?  

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

The matching outfits was a point of contention for Patsy on the night Jonbenet was murdered. Apparently, she wanted JBR to  wear a matching outfit to the Whites  but JBR didn't want to and they had a disagreement about it. 

Yes, JB's red turtleneck shirt was seen crumpled on the bathroom vanity in crime scene photos. 

Survey #2:. How many times have you worn the same (sweaty) Christmas outfit two days in a row?  Where was Patsy planning on showering, changing clothes, etc.?  Michigan?

[AZChristian]

And when the police asked for the clothing to check fibers, they knew from photos that Patsy had worn a red turtleneck that night and the next morning.  But the shirt she turned over was NOT that turtleneck.  Some of the cops thought it smelled like it was right out of the package, not worn by anyone.

Some of the fibers they found UNDER the duct tape on JB's mouth matched the fibers in Patsy's blazer.  Gee.  How did they get there? 

[TattleTeeny]

I'm on a tear over here, reading the police interview transcripts. Some stuff that sticks out to me (some for no real reason that I can think of at this point):

• Patsy mentions not only having "flashbacks" of seeing her dead child on the living room (sunroom?) floor after she'd been brought up from the basement--understandable. But then, she uses the word "flashback" again in regard to hearing JonBenét scream. Could be nothing, but according to her, she never heard anything that night. A flashback is different than imagining something like that--the latter being understandable as well.
• Early on, she says that John came to bed after she did. I could be all screwed up here but were there not a few mentions of John taking melatonin and going to be before Patsy did?
• Cops say that there was a Dr. Seuss book inside the blue suitcase.
• Patsy says that Burke is just OK with pineapple, not that it's a favorite of his. 
• Weird photos (right before the Xmas morning ones of the kids) from Patsy's camera of a "messy hallway" and a bottle of Windex or something. 

To be honest, I can't remember what I remember from reading everything I could get my hands on way back in the late '90s, or what I didn't know before the recent glut of info, or what I read here. But for whatever reason (my own issues, haha!), I am over here voluntarily cramming more info into my head!

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John said he locked himself out the house a couple of times and broke windows to get in. The last time I locked myself out I called a locksmith, but okay. So why doesn't Moneybags ever get the damn windows repaired or replaced?

Dude also didn't even clean up the damn glass himself; per Patsy, she and the housekeeper took care of it after Patsy got home from her Michigan trip!

Edited November 17, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[glowlights]

He had children in the house and left a broken window and glass on the floor???

[TattleTeeny]

Right?! Men, haha!

[Ilovecomputers]

John did go to bed before Patsy. Some speculate Patsy never went to bed that night. Are you reading these transcripts online, TattleTeeny?  You've piqued my curiosity. 

Has anyone read Lawrence Schiller's book?  I have finished both books I have on the JB case.

[Joe Jitsu913]

19 minutes ago, Ilovecomputers said:

John did go to bed before Patsy. Some speculate Patsy never went to bed that night. Are you reading these transcripts online, TattleTeeny?  You've piqued my curiosity. 

Has anyone read Lawrence Schiller's book?  I have finished both books I have on the JB case.

I've read PMPT and it really is what I consider the Bible of this case. So much information about the Ramseys that doesn't seem biased. It's very matter of fact .Lawrence Schiller did an excellent job laying out the facts and  interviewing people.  

Has anyone read the Death of Innocence?  Patsy comes across as a religious,  eccentric narcissist.  She claims she unknowingly wove death into the Christmas theme by choosing to decorate the tree with purple.  

 

She also talks about her funeral outfit and wanting it to resemble Jackie Kennedy. 

[TattleTeeny]

I have never read that one, even though I have always tried to keep up with as much as I can. Back then when it was released, when I was staunchly in the PDI camp, so it's actually kind of unfair of me to not read it. But I always had a feeling it would tell me nothing--still do have that feeling.

I even read that handwriting-centric book--and I loved Perfect Murder, Perfect Town. I thought Steve Thomas's was OK but I could kind of feel the tunnel vision, which I am now starting to forgive--or at least understand; I'll admit that while I do still feel that it was real, it was not as diabolically fixated as I once believed.

That said, I still believe that Linda Arndt is kind of a dope. I'm sorry, I just can't shake that opinion.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[AZChristian]

Anyone who saw Patsy in her funeral outfit KNEW she was trying to look like Jackie Kennedy.  Those are the only two people I've ever seen in an elbow-length black veil.

Patsy knew she needed to dress appropriately for their national TV appearances, right?  And this is the same woman who says she wore the same outfit two days in a row for totally different activities.  R-i-i-i-g-t.

[TattleTeeny]

I still don't find it generally hard to believe that a person, even Patsy, would put on the previous day's clothing to get onto a plane at the crack of dawn. However, amid everything else we know, I no longer believe that to be what's going on here.

Oh my goodness, this is crazy but I just love all of this! I mean, I do not love that this poor little girl was treated this way, but the reading and the discussing and the digging--I love all of that. I mean, to what end do I do it? I don't know. Keeps me out of trouble, I suppose.

Edited November 16, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[Ilovecomputers]

Quote

She also talks about her funeral outfit and wanting it to resemble Jackie Kennedy. 

Thanks, JoeJitsu. I will definitely have to read it then. 

She wanted her funeral outfit to resemble Jackie's?  Another bizarre footnote. I didn't read the Ramsey book but I just looked at reviews of it online. Had to laugh because several reviewers said they didn't finish the book because Patsy was just too annoying--"and hence" I will not be reading it. 

[AZChristian]

From John and Patsy's own book: 

"At that moment a picture of Jackie Kennedy abruptly flashed across my mind. I remembered seeing her wearing a black veil, walking hand in hand with her two children to JFK's grave site. Now I could see why people wore veils at such times. The filmy material surrounds you like a cocoon, over-shadowing your face and closing out the world. With the covering and protection, I could cry, be private in my grief. I decided I wanted to wear a veil to JonBenet's funeral, so I asked one of my friends to help. She found a sheer black scarf and attached it to a black felt hat, then packed it for the trip to Atlanta."

Pardon my doubt and lack of compassion. I think she used the veil because she couldn't squeeze out any real tears for her victim.

[glowlights]

All she had to say was that she wore a veil for privacy in her grief. By adding in the reference to Jackie Kennedy she sounds like a pretentious drama queen. But it was nice of her friend to rig the scarf. The snarky, uncharitable side of me suspects that funeral was Patsy's Big Moment. Narcissists are like that.

[TattleTeeny]

I think she's as off-putting as they come but I have no doubt that she grieved her child, especially if the theory laid out in that CBS show is what happened. Really, in that scenario--no matter what irrational, crazy-ass behavior went on that night, and throughout the investigation and beyond--I'd believe the woman has shed countless tears for both of her children.

[glowlights]

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. 

[TattleTeeny]

That's what I'm saying. This family is like an onion with the layers of weirdness.

Also, what in the hell with this pinning-a-scarf business? If it's that important to you, send someone out to buy a hat with a veil then, haha!

Edited November 17, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[TattleTeeny]

7 hours ago, Ilovecomputers said:

John did go to bed before Patsy. Some speculate Patsy never went to bed that night. Are you reading these transcripts online, TattleTeeny?  You've piqued my curiosity. 

Has anyone read Lawrence Schiller's book?  I have finished both books I have on the JB case.

I'm sorry--I completely missed this post; I was not ignoring you!

I know about the theories of Patsy never going to bed (and I think I believe them at this point); my issue with that is that I think I recall John saying a few times that he went to bed first. So, I'm not musing over what did happen but more why in the hell did they not get their stories straight on that?

The transcripts are at acandyrose.com. It's an ugly-looking red and black site straight from 1995 but transcripts themselves are in readable(ish) black and white.

[Ilovecomputers]

4 hours ago, glowlights said:

All she had to say was that she wore a veil for privacy in her grief. By adding in the reference to Jackie Kennedy she sounds like a pretentious drama queen. But it was nice of her friend to rig the scarf. The snarky, uncharitable side of me suspects that funeral was Patsy's Big Moment. Narcissists are like that.

Well this is in entirely in character for a woman who put her home on display for the holiday parade of homes and put her daughter on display for beauty contests.  All the world's a stage...

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

The transcripts are at acandyrose.com. It's an ugly-looking red and black site straight from 1995 but transcripts themselves are in readable(ish) black and white.

Thanks!  I had stumbled across that website before, but today I found its index!

[glowlights]

17 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

That's what I'm saying. This family is like an onion with the layers of weirdness. Also, what in the hell with this pinning-a-scarf business? If it's that important to you, send someone out to buy a hat with a veil then, haha!

The rigged up scarf just sort of encapsulates Patsy for me. Her "showcase" house was a dirty mess. Her "star daughter" was in tacky pageants. Her "Jackie Kennedy mourning veil" was a scarf pinned to a hat. She wanted so badly to be in the social elite but just couldn't hide her inner bumpkin, like a piece of toilet paper stuck to the bottom of her shoe. The other day I read that people in Boulder used to laugh at how she went out in big hats, like someone off the set of Dynasty. I feel sorry for her (assuming she didn't kill her daughter or lie about it).

[TattleTeeny]

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I feel sorry for her (assuming she didn't kill her daughter or lie about it).

As a person who reads/watches a lot of true crime, I actually think that you can feel sorry for a criminal, even a murderer, in the context of what went on with that person to make him or her into a monster. By no means do I think that doing that absolves the person for a crime, or makes that person into a martyr; it shows that we are not monsters and have the ability to consider more than just the terrible actions. 

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Her "showcase" house was a dirty mess.

Haha, in one of the police transcripts, she answers that she's "not much of a housekeeper" or something to that effect! No shit, man--and maybe your housekeeper wasn't either!

[Mittengirl]

I just finished Steve Thomas' book and among the things that surprised me was that Patsy used to play softball. She just seems like one of those people that wouldn't want to break a sweat or a fingernail.  And I can't see her with a baseball cap on that lacquered hair.

[Joe Jitsu913]

I'm not sure if anyone has read this excerpt from Linda Hoffman-Pugh. She attempted to write a tell all about the Ramsey case but it never materialized:

 

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. So let me tell you how I believe JonBenet was murdered. If I were speaking to Patsy Ramsey right now, this is what I would say to her: You were spent and exhausted, weren't you? The holidays do that to people. At the party on December twenty-third you appeared a little out of sorts, perhaps because there were twenty people in the house with another twenty on the way. It was five in the afternoon, and I was on my way out the door, leaving you without help. So it's okay if you dipped deeply into the Beringer Chardonnay, your favorite wine that you kept in the walk-in refrigerator, just off the kitchen.

Holidays can be depressing. I don't blame you for being down. Your big four-oh birthday was less than a week away, you had dealt with ovarian cancer for years, and your beauty queen looks were fading. Miss West Virginia of 1977 had become a middle-aged matron. You loved JonBenet, but she was a handful, wetting the bed night after night. She was driving you crazy. Christmas Day wasn't quiet or peaceful, either. There was pressure, lots of pressure and I wasn't there to smooth out the rough edges for you. Sure, it was picture perfect, snow on the ground, and your home was a decorator's dream. I remember helping to decorate the artifical Christmas trees, one for nearly every room in the house. Giant candy canes bordered both sides of the walk. But there were homes to visit, open houses that had to be dropped in and dropped out of, and you were expected to gather up Burke and JonBenet and have them ready to fly out at daybreak to Michigan where there was going to be a second Christmas at your lakefront vacation house. John would hire the pilot, but you were the one who had to pack and organize and get the kids dressed.

So you were weary that night, who wouldn't be? John was no help. He did what he always did - swallowed a couple of melatonin capsules and fell into a deep sleep. He wouldn't have heard a cannon go off it was next to the bed. You were still wearing the red sweater and black velvet trousers when you put JonBenet to bed Christmas night. Surprisingly - for someone who has a hundred dresses and prides herself with never wearing the same outfit twice - you were wearing that same costume when the police arrived the next day.

JonBenet wet the bed again that night, didn't she? She woke up and told you about it before you were even undressed and you simply "lost it." You took her into the bathroom. It was the same destination you always took JonBenet when it was time to punish her for bedwetting. You forget that I saw you take here there so many times before, shutting the door tightly behind you, so her screams could not be heard. Except this time there was "an accident," wasn't there? You picked up the long, black flashlight you had brought with you, and you swung it. You swung it first at her crotch and then next at her head. Maybe you meant to scare her and maybe you didn't mean to kill her, but you did.

At first you thought you had knocked her out, but then she wasn't breathing, and you felt for a pulse, but there was none. What to do? What to do? Well, someone else must have done this, since it certainly couldn't have been you. Right? After all, you were always a model parent. Right? At least you hoped people thought so. All of those Tom Clancy novels were suddenly flashing through your mind as JonBenet's body lay before you. What would a clever mystery writer have his antagonist do? Think! They sure wouldn't have the villain lie down and take the rap for an accident. A bash in the head, after all, was too suspicious. A parent could do that. But what if JonBenet was slowly strangled, exotically, with, of all things, a garrote? So you broke off one of your paint brushes, took the white nylon cord, and twisted it around her neck. She might have still been revived, but you didn't know it. You just pulled the cord tight around her neck until it was red. I remember just such a cord wrapped in just such a way around a box in the basement next to where her body was found. I remember a lot Patsy.

You kept trying to make it an exotic crime scene, didn't you? You even taped your daughter's wrists and her mouth shut, cutting the tape with a small Swiss army knife that would later be found beside her body the next day. I remember that knife. Burke had walked around the house whittling with it a month before, and I told you I put it up at the top of the linen closet near JonBenet's bedroom when I confiscated it from him. Only you knew and John knew the exact location of that hideaway in the linen closet. After you finished taping JonBenet's mouth, you carried her downstairs and hid her body in the basement inside a small hidden room - the "wine room" you called it, even though there was never any wine stored there. You then wrapped her in a favorite white blanket of hers, which you took from the dryer, except her Barbie nightgown was stuck to it because you never did have the sense to throw in a static cling strip with the wash. So you laid the nightie next to her.

You had stored the plastic Christmas trees there, in that "wine cellar." Strange, isn't it? I had worked for you for nearly a year and I didn't even know that room existed until you had me get those trees out of there. An intruder wouldn't have found that place. Not in a million years. Only you, or John, would know it location. Your house was a 22-room rabbit warren and maze that even my husband once got lost in when he was doing some work for you. What to do next? Well, a ransom note might be nice. It would explain why JonBenet was suddenly missing. But you forgot one thing. The handwriting and language of the note were all yours. I can hear your "voice" in the note. The word "hence," for example, was in your Christmas cards and letters and a word you liked to use in conversation. The phrase "use that good Southern common sense" is what you kidded John about, since he was anything but Southern, having been born and raised in Michigan; the phrase "fat cat" is what your mother, Nedra, used to call you after you and John became rich. The ransom demand asked that the money be put in an attach, with a proper accent mark over the last e in attach. I remember how careful you always were to put the proper accent mark over the e in the second syllable of JonBenet's name. The ransom note even ended with the initials SBTC. Do you remember how fond you were of using initials as abbreviations for all sorts of expressions?

Preparing the crime scene and writing the ransom note must have been time consuming and exhausting. You were up all night before you "found" the ransom note just before six a.m in the morning. You didn't even have time to change your clothes from the day before. You began screaming as soon as John had awakened and he didn't even know what had happened when you called the police. John didn't know what had happened to JonBenet when he found the body hidden in the basement. When did you tell him?

[TattleTeeny]

While I feel like I don't necessarily 100% disagree with the picture it's painting, it at the same time seems kind of nutty! And a little self-important (and also kind of irresponsible).

Edited November 18, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[AZChristian]

Poor Linda - she was probably writing this while trying to duck the bus that Patsy was trying to throw her under.  (Yes, I ended the sentence with a preposition.  Deal with it.)