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stillshimpy

Ser Jorah Mormont: Knight Of The Perpetual Friendzone

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Let's see if this works.  From the episode thread, where we were debating animal behavior and the basic qualities of being a Killjoy: 

Yes, I was a bit puzzled by Jorah's reaction too. To be honest, I'm not crazy about Jorah. What does he know about raising dragons? Shut up, Jorah! ;-)

 

More to come after I figure out if I'm doing this right.  Edit: Woo!  Party in the 'hood! That appears to have worked.  Where was I? Yeah, okay, Jorah "Loyalty is Everything to me, but I appear to contradict that a lot" Mormont. 

I generally like Jorah, and I particularly liked him back in the day when he was guarding an unconscious Dany, when he thought she had lost absolutely everything and they were just going to be poor together with no power (Drogo was as good as dead, the Dothraki had bugged out, all hope appeared to be gone, just Jorah, a dead heir to the Horde and a vindictive witch)...and Dany woke up to see him with his sword across his knee, in armor that had some freaking blood on it.  

Then I thought he was great and I felt for him. Unrequited love would really suck and I thought he understood, "Yeah, that's some seriously unrequited love there, Jorah." Then he seemed to have expectations that maybe there might be a way to more in the Season of Dany is Dull, Season two.  She smacked him down, he watched her get the hots for Daario with dismay and now we have Disillusioned and heartbroken Jorah handing out "I'm ignorant of Pack Order behaviors and what's called 'food agression'  in animals" advice to Dany, seemingly designed to ...what, bum her out? 

Make her not have that much faith in Dragons?  How is Jorah a Dragon expert when he didn't even believe in the damned things in the first season "I believe the evidence of my own eyes, Kahleesi."  Well...behold, dude.  

So his, "They will always be dragons, you will never tame them..." stuff was....seemingly designed to try and distance Dany from something he views as a reason to be jealous.  I've like Jorah, but Dany looks ready to have a fling of epic, naked proportions with the new, improved for less smarm, Daario.  

Jorah "Loyalty is everything to me" might actually think that is disloyal of Dany.  Or it just might make him heartsick, but his weird comment about Dragons and being the voice of gloom about her connection to them made me sort of wonder if there's any possibility that Jorah might actually betray Dany at some point.  

It was just that "Uh, why in the world are you trying to convince her that she's not as close to the dragons as she clearly is? ...Oh.  Okay, you're kind of jealous and perpetually bummed that she has no boning interest in you, right?"  

Edited by Mya Stone · Reason: Edited title only. Since it's in the Habitat, it being Completely Unspoiled is a given. :)
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And yet Dany goes along with his KIA (know it all) attitude about the dragons and about everything else. She must be getting used to being worshipped by her freed Unsullied army and her freed slave masses to take Jorah's obvious googly eyes in stride. His transformation from tail wagging pleasure ('we defeated Yuhnkhai, my Queen') to bummed out, tail between his legs sadness ('fine, cool, but what about Daarhio?') was just sad to see in S3 Ep10.

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It does seem Jorah is getting jealous of all alphas near Dany, especially when that nearness is literally in her lap.  The dragons are not only her surrogate children, but now strapping adolescents with charisma and will of their own.  They are also the greatest weapon that Dany commands, and a weapon that only Dany commands -- an army of their own that has no ties to anyone or anything but her.  They are rivals, if Jorah is disposed to see them that way.  They're not the only ones, either.  Dany now has a staff that collectively, duplicates and excels virtually everything that Jorah has to offer.  A far better translator, a far more experienced wartime commander and guardian, an (arguably) sexier raider (and since Dany is the one who isn't arguing, no other opinion matters much).  

his weird comment about Dragons and being the voice of gloom about her connection to them made me sort of wonder if there's any possibility that Jorah might actually betray Dany at some point.

I hadn't thought so, shimpy, but your post is very persuasive.  Ugh. But it's hard to see why Dany won't continue to have it all her own way out there in Essos, and like the Lannisters in the Westeros, that means that any real threat, conflict or drama will have to arise from within.  And having Daario turn out to be a no-goodnik wouldn't carry anything near the weight of Jorah's turning. Plus, there's that "former slaver" shoe still waiting...waiting...waiting to fall.  That, and Jorah's original assignment to spy on her for Varys.  

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Oh, I don't think Jorah would ever betray Dany. He loves her too much for that. I do think, however, that his working for Varys will eventually come up. I would like to think that Dany would forgive him if she finds out, but we know she doesn't react well to betrayals, so she might feed him to Blacky and watch impassively.

The one who's definitely going to betray Dany is that Dario. She'll sleep with him all right, specially now he's actually hot. But I have no idea how she has any trust in the guy, after he betrayed his friends so easily. The guy will go with whoever suits him at any time. I'm also waiting for the food running out and Dany' s adoring fans turning against her. Let's see how she handles a massive scale mutiny.

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I still think that Jorah having been kicked out of Westeros for slave trading (iirc) will eventually drive a wedge between Dany, Freer of Slaves, and him.  I think that when Dany finds out that Jorah was spying for Varys (and only became close to her because of that, initially), and recalls his slaving past, I don't know, she may make him ride at the back of the army after that.  Ser Barristan must know something about Jorah's past, he was in KL for too long not to have heard something about him...

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I believe Barristan said something like 'you've got a shit reputation in Westeros, it would be better for Her if you steer clear when we get across the Narrow Sea' to Jorah.

I think the actor is wonderful. He sells me on the character. I think I would be annoyed rather than impressed with Jorah in the hands of anyone else. He was banished from W for slave trading, and seemed to have no prob with buying a slave army (mostly because it would be more controllable), so he is morally... flexible about slavery in general.

Rewatching now.

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I believe Barristan said something like 'you've got a shit reputation in Westeros, it would be better for Her if you steer clear when we get across the Narrow Sea' to Jorah.

 

It would be hilarious if, in a couple of seasons, Dany and a gigantic army crosses the Narrow Sea, and as soon as they hit Westerosi shores, Jorah just ups and disappears for no reason that Dany can discern.  Dany: "Where did Ser Jorah go...?"  Barristan Selmy: "Who, Your Grace?"

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I really don't trust Jorah.  No, "nice guy," you're not going to get the girl.  You're a slaver and a liar, and someone whose allegiance and decision-making ability revolve around how hot a woman is.  I think he'll either turn on her once she finds out about his past, or he'll try and martyrize himself in some grand statement of self-pity.  He needs to tuck his tail between his legs, put his fedora on, and ride off into the sunset before she gets wind of his history.

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I think I would be annoyed rather than impressed with Jorah in the hands of anyone else. He was banished from W for slave trading, and seemed to have no prob with buying a slave army (mostly because it would be more controllable), so he is morally... flexible about slavery in general.

Well, and this is the very thing that concerns me a bit about Jorah because of his "Loyalty is everything to me" claim.  What happens when he perceives disloyalty? Or when it becomes clear that he's just not going to get what he wants out of this relationship?  It should be clear already, Dany has directly said that "you forget yourself" and rebuffed him.  He's still sticking around, but from the look on his face when Dany asked after Daario with such obvious concern, I think it hadn't really registered with him that, not only was he forever friendzoned, but he'd have to watch as she essentially chose someone else.  

Would that strike him as being disloyal?  If so, what does he do about that?  

The only reason I'm even belaboring the point are the gruesome mile markers.  Dany and company, lots and lots of company, are on their way somewhere.  Wherever that is, they know she's coming.  They seem to be trying to tick her off with the road signs.  Freeing slaves as a gig could be about an abhorrence of slavery -- when viewed from a distance -- or it could be an expedient way to win loyalty.  Only the people who really know Dany would know that one way or another. that she seems to personally identify with slaves as people vs. good tools to win over.  

Basically it occurred to me that, "Huh, why did upcoming city know those mile markers would chap Dany's hide so much?"  

I'm not really sure I even believe that Jorah has decided to spy for some other entity.  After all, Dany's reputation could simply precede her, but it's clear that something has reached the ears of the upcoming city.  

I did like Jorah a lot, but Jorah has a history of being kind of a turncoat, depending upon the angle from which you view him.  His father certainly felt his son was a traitor and Jorah claims to have done that for the love of his extravagant wife.  Jorah's been marching down Free the Slaves Highway because he loves Dany, not because he believes in her cause.  Now, he might love her so selflessly that he can just stand by and watch her hook up with Daario and not feel slighted, but I don't think so.  

His crestfallen face when Dany asked after Daario was a choice by the actor.  We're supposed to know that he knows and he's not digging this.  He also seemed sort of detached and emotionally removed in the first episode.  I could be imagining that, of course, but it seems likely. 

Also, I just feel as if Jorah and Barristan are not two people who can actually work together for any length of time. Jorah may value loyalty, but that doesn't speak to how much he values Honor and Barristan is basically honor with feet.  

So anyway, I saw the signposts on the highway of Grim and wondered, "Hey, how do these people know that is about the most upsetting thing that they could do to Dany?"  Word of mouth?  Maybe.  But the fact that the slave was a woman also caught my eye.  I've always thought that Dany began to identify with slaves because of her own "and I was sold pretty much like a horse, if my brother had lived he'd have let the horde do whatever they wanted to me to get the throne and told me as much".  I think she has actual empathy for the plight of slaves, vs. compassion. 

It occurred to me that out of Barristan, Grey Worm, Daario and Jorah it would seem like Daario would be the most likely to betray her, if anyone did, but in thinking it over, my money would sooner be on Ser Jorah for selling out....because he's been known to do that in the past. 

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Good points, shimpy, but how would telling the next Slave City "this will REALLY piss off the Mother of Dragons" advance his romantic prospects (or take Daario down a notch or two)?

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Good points, shimpy, but how would telling the next Slave City "this will REALLY piss off the Mother of Dragons" advance his romantic prospects (or take Daario down a notch or two)?

No, it would not help with Dany, but that's the point.  He may have given up on Dany since she's clearly not into him in the same way.  He may have struck a lucrative bargain of a different sort.  After he gave up on being Robert's Dany spy -- because he had the hots for her -- Jorah was not really in favor of the entire "Let's go conquer the Seve Kingdoms" plan.  He seemed to be more of the "Let's go sell these dragon eggs, take the wealth and live splendidly, Kahleesi."  than anything else,with the ultimate goal of "After you've finished mourning, we will have lots and lots of naked fun time.  Whee!"  

He's never been all about the goal of taking back what is Dany's (by fire and blood, the occasional double coupon, with raspberry vinaigrette and probiotic kimchi!) birthright.  Right up until she asked after Daario first, I think he still believed, "She's eventually going to want to get it on, right?"  

So I don't know that Jorah is still trying to advance the "win Dany's heart" any longer and may be more about the "What's in it for me?"  He doesn't have the same feelings about freeing slaves.  I think he might not believe that a woman can rule the seven kingdoms and he seems to not believe that Dany can fully count on her dragons.  

Plus, what a blow to his pride it would be to have Dany so openly and obviously into Daario when she practically slapped him down for even the suggestion that he had future romantic plans for her.  That's always sort of interested me, if there will be any kind of price that Jorah wants paid for that wounding of his pride.  How absolute is his love for her.  I have to say, I think a good portion of it died when she asked about Daario, when he's standing in front of her, splattered in blood, having just won a city for her and this Daario Come Lately was her first concern. 

That or, could he have some plan to get rid of Daario? I mean, they aren't playing this subtly at all.  Jorah's well aware of her feelings for Daario.  Dany doesn't in anyway try to hide it and Jorah had very little reaction to "So, they apparently know we're coming". 

Edited by stillshimpy

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I really don't think Jorah would go and tell the city in advance that dead slave children are what will hurt Danny the most. Why? Because he enjoys watching her suffer? I don't think so. The only thing it would and will accomplish, is make her even more pissed off at this city than she already is. Which works for her and her quest to free everyone one.

I didn't think about it because I thought it was just the regular way this city indicates the way, but if anyone had to be responsible for that, yeah, my money would be on Daario. I have nothing to back up this argument, other than who else, really?

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I really don't think Jorah would go and tell the city in advance that dead slave children are what will hurt Danny the most. Why? Because he enjoys watching her suffer? I don't think so. The only thing it would and will accomplish, is make her even more pissed off at this city than she already is. Which works for her and her quest to free everyone one.

Because when he wasn't in love with Dany (or at points concurrently) , he was sending in information about her to win a pardon that would allow him to return to the Seven Kingdoms.  Jorah wanted to go home before he wanted Dany.  Dany is taking her sweet time getting him back there and I'm not sure he thinks she can achieve her goal of ruling from the Iron Throne.  

So the "Why" would be there might be something in it for him to make sure Dany doesn't actually make it all the way to Westeros.  There's also the (I admit, very slim) possibility that he wants a pitched battle so that he can make sure Daario dies before doing Dany (alliteration! Woo!).  Seems like there would be easier ways to do that though.  

But he may have renewed his spying way for Varys -- who serves the realm, rather than a particular King -- hates magic and probably doesn't want the Scorched Earth Mother rolling into town to burn the bejeebers out of the place.  

I'm not even sure I buy any of that, I'm just (wait for it)....spitballing here. 

Edited by stillshimpy
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Yeah, let's say it sounds a bit farfetched ;-) but I agree that Jorah has been a bit of party pooper. He's the guy who supposedly loves you but keeps bringing you down every chance he gets because he's pissed that you don't love him back. I don't know that he would betray her now, especially to the city I really can't remember the name of! All I remember is that it's got a pyramid that I can't wait to see. But maybe overtime, if he disagrees with the way things go, I could see him betraying her for his own benefit.

Edited by Isazouzi
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At this point, I'm sure that Dany is Jorah's best bet for getting back to Westeros... eventually. With her, he has a chance of not only getting home, but also getting some kind of power (political power, not magical power) in the process, and, as we know, power is power. I'm sure he sees a seat on her council in his future, he may even imagine he'll be Hand of the Queen. I'm sure he's moved on from his fantasies of being her King, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have other things to offer.

Edited by 90PercentGravity

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At this point, I'm sure that Dany is Jorah's best bet for getting back to Westeros... eventually. With her, he has a change of not only getting home, but also getting some kind of power (political power, not magical power) in the process, and, as we know, power is power. I'm sure he sees a seat on her council in his future, he may even imagine he'll be Hand of the Queen. I'm sure he's moved on from his fantasies of being her King, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have other things to offer.

 

I never thought of this before but I think you're right.  There *is* something Jorah can selifshly gain from this friendzoned relationship, and it is a clean slate in Westeros, as long as Dany is Queen and installs him in some impervious, Master-of-the-Coin Small Council-y type position.  This is a very good point.

I don't view Jorah as suspiciously as many of you guys but I have to say, we have had two really noble, strong, trustworthy men have nothing but disdain for Jorah.  Lord Commander Mormont thought Jorah was so irredeemable that he gave his family's sword to Jon Snow.  And Ned was the one that kicked Jorah out and would never have been okay with Varys's arranging a pardon and return for him.  I still think I see Barristan giving Jorah the side eye.  So...regardless of the fact that I think Jorah comes off as pretty above-board most of the time, the fact is, he started out as a spy, and in the eyes of a Mormont, a Stark, and a Selmy, he's trash.  If those men don't respect you, I don't know if you can be worthy of respect. 

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Unrequited love is dangerous for the object of that love - and nevermoreso as when said object is distancing herself from the obsessed.  Just sayin'.

I think that Jorah is starting to feel just a wee bit emasculated, and "mature" men take as kindly to that as their younger, rasher counterparts, but with more deliberate and devious methods of retaliation.

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I think Jorah's mix of awe and love would prevent him from EVER actively, consciously betraying Queen D. What he might do because he thinks he is helping her is another matter, but not, I believe, for personal gain. Would he make excuses for why he just HAD to "remove" this person or that because they didn't have Dany's 'best interests' at heart (as he does)? Certainly. But he believes he is being loyal (as he understands the idea).

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I think that Jorah is starting to feel just a wee bit emasculated, and "mature" men take as kindly to that as their younger, rasher counterparts, but with more deliberate and devious methods of retaliation.

Agreed and that's why I'm finding his calm demeanor sort of alarming.  I could just be dead wrong though, and this is the sort of show that makes me imagine betrayal at every turn.  

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I was 100% on team "Jorah's Awesome" in Season 2. After Sir Barristan came into the picture, he did get defensive, but that I understood. Now, Jorah is just getting more and more possessive, jealous, and probably petty. Dany and Dario are totally riding a train to bang-town that will make Jorah go crazy. Could he have a moment where he thinks If-I-can't-have-her-no-one-can and betray her again? Once a sneaky liar, always a sneaky liar.


Did we ever figure out what it was that convinced Jorah to switch from snitch to (Dany's) bitch? He told Varys (via raven I presume) that Dany was pregnant. Not long after that, he saved her from the wine merchant. Was he conflicted the whole time? Did he not realize they were planning on killing her, then changed his mind? I can't remember anymore.

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Did we ever figure out what it was that convinced Jorah to switch from snitch to (Dany's) bitch? He told Varys (via raven I presume) that Dany was pregnant. Not long after that, he saved her from the wine merchant. Was he conflicted the whole time? Did he not realize they were planning on killing her, then changed his mind? I can't remember anymore.

Maybe he's OK with murdering grown-up women, but not pregnant women? Just like he's a slaver but not a traitor? I seem to remember that she switched him by saying or doing something super nice that made him fall in love with her. I could be totally off though.

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I think Jorah was a tiny bit conflicted (and I do mean "a tiny bit" ) when he found out Dany was pregnant and he seemed to contemplate that for a moment before he rode off to report it. So he appeared to think it over after the maid announced (in essence) that Dany was pregnant, Jorah sort of reset his jaw and rode off.

When that kid handed him the piece of paper in the market with something like "The Spider sends his regards and tells you to come home" or whatever he said (it was really clunky exposition-style dialogue and that kid was playing it for the cheap seats, but that's understandable) Jorah looked at the slip of paper, presumably saw that he was pardoned and realized what it meant if they no longer needed his services: That Dany was about to be killed.

So he saved her from the Wine Merchant (again, assassination attempts on this show don't hold up to a crap load of scrutiny, "What the killer's plan relied on Dany wandering by his wine stall and stopping to chat? That's daft as hell, and relies on prescience at a level people don't possess...but whatever") and became her loyal servant with hope of naked time.

Viserys actually said that Jorah wanted Dany, but I honestly thought at the time that Viserys was just projecting or something of that nature. Apparently not.

It's actually that Jorah has ceased to look pained that bothers and worries me. No one likes rejection and he'd have reason to be particularly bitter about it. Plus, the deal with Daario is even slightly worse: When Dany rebuffed the tiny advance that Jorah made, she basically put it down to a difference in social stature "You forget yourself" ...which I guess is better than hearing, "Ew! I think of you as a friend, Old Enough to be My Dad Dude!"

But when Dany started clearly having the hots for Daario, Jorah would have to understand "Okay, it's not about a difference in social stature...because he's a sellsword and mercenary....it's about rejecting me personally."

That typically is not balm to the wounded pride of anyone. Plus, there are more problems for Jorah, he actually knows he spied on Dany and that revelation waiting to come out, that shoe waiting to plummet to the floor, would also color his choices and actions.

I don't know what he's going to do, but I'm not going to shocked if he does sell Dany out. I just don't think he has such a pure love for her that he's going to watch her actively choose another man over him....and she's clearly going to.

I think it was one thing before Jorah made it clear that he had romantic feelings for her. He could tell himself she didn't know, etc. After he made it clear though? Yeah that's Dany actively choosing to reject him. It's one thing if it is because she wants no one, that's easier to take less personally.

It's just got to be clear there's more to it than that with her obvious interest in Daario.

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The obvious interest in Daario is the launching pad for Jorah's (possible) self-destruct mode. Is that the only reason he'd turn on her? No. Here's my reasons for why Jorah is going to have an identity crisis at any moment:

  1. He loves, or at least lusts, after Dany. Not only did she reject him, but she may begin openly flirting and seeing another man who is of lower status and name than he is, but young/charming/handsome. The why him and not me of it all will tear him apart.
  2. When she was first inducted into the Dothraki clan, he was her only friend and confidant. This was out of necessity. Jorah could speak the common tongue when her own husband couldn't, and Viserys was a lunatic. Once the witch hit the fan, Jorah was all she had plus a few Dothraki who were loyal to her. After her first victory at Qarth, Jorah was her only adviser. He lead her to the Unsullied. Then came Sir Barriston. Jorah was probing him for intent and information while making certain Ol' Barry knew that Jorah was there first. aka Step Off  My Khalessi!  Now, he's got to compete with Barry, Daario, and Grey Worm. All great fighters with level strategic heads. Daario also has more knowledge of the land, cities, and cultures than Jorah does. What does Jorah offer than all the others don't exactly? Loyalty? oh wait...
  3. Jorah used to buy and sell slaves. Dany hasn't forgotten this. At some point, they're going to butt heads over this.
Edited by DirewolfPup
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Aww... wow... such harsh comments on my beloved Jorah! (I literally have a dog named Jorah... LOL)

I don't think he'd betray Dany, but I could see him butting heads with her on the topic of Daario. Perhaps he will discover something unsavory about him after she has already fallen for him, and will try to convince her he is Bad News and be rejected and dismissed as jealous, but he will in fact be right. He might take matters into his own hands and be Daario's undoing, but knowing this show he will wind up murdering Daario to save her but have no way to prove it was necessary.

I am 100% sure he's not spying on her to the city they're headed towards or anything else. I think the dead slave mile markers were just standard operating procedure over there as a warning to travelers or slaves about how they punish criminals/slaves. Besides, he could leave her at any time as long as he didn't throw away that royal pardon (which would have been a seriously bad move, always have a back up plan!) If she finds out he's a spy that might be his only saving grace, if he could prove he'd had it all the time and yet stayed by her side. I agree he is uncomfortable that Dany now has a lot of support from a variety of sources, yes, what does she really need Jorah for?  I just hope she doesn't forget who was there for her way back in the beginning when she had absolutely nothing. (and hey I for one am MUCH younger than Jorah but still find him attractive... if you don't want him Dany send him over here!)

As far as Ned/Selmy/etc's opinion of Jorah... Ned dislikes him because he broke the law, and escaped his (Ned's) justice. Of course he's not gonna like the guy. Doesn't mean he's totally worthless. Selmy dislikes Jorah IMO partly because they were on opposite sides during the war. Selmy fought by Rhaegar's side, I'm under the impression Jorah fought on Ned's? (He said something about fighting beside Ned/RObert back in season 1) So there is probably bad blood going back then. Of course, Jorah is now on Team Targaryen, and Selmy is back, but only after serving in the Usurper's King's Guard for years!!! If he hadn't been kicked off, he'd still be guarding Joffrey (and maybe Joffrey would still be alive today lolol) I think I saw more distrust of Jorah towards Selmy than vice versa. Selmy just showed up and his motives might be in question as far as Jorah is concerned, and I think Selmy senses that distrust and just mirrors it right back.

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As far as Ned/Selmy/etc's opinion of Jorah... Ned dislikes him because he broke the law, and escaped his (Ned's) justice. Of course he's not gonna like the guy

Oh absolutely.  I liked Ned a lot and found a lot about him admirable, but he had a very black and white vision of right and wrong.  He was aptly named "Stark" because to him there was a stark contrast being acting honorably and dishonorably and more importantly than that, having an action he disapproved of being wholly definitive of a person's character in his eyes.  That is actually my way of saying I think he could be unfairly judgmental.  

Not that I think Jorah's actions were defensible, because I don't, but I also think they were far in the past and the kind of "well that was a really wrong thing you did" actions that people sometimes do when they are desperate to keep the love of someone (which is part of my concern for what Jorah might do now...he compromises honor in trying to keep a woman he wants).  

But Ned's views on a person never really incorporated that kind of perspective on circumstances.  

I liked Ned in the "I like people who have the code of good" way, but I bet he'd be a pain in the backside to be around, because on wrong-footed action and you'd be forever defined in his book.  

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Not that I think Jorah's actions were defensible, because I don't, but I also think they were far in the past and the kind of "well that was a really wrong thing you did" actions that people sometimes do when they are desperate to keep the love of someone (which is part of my concern for what Jorah might do now...he compromises honor in trying to keep a woman he wants).

Yep I think that is the trouble with his Slaving past more than anything; not that he thinks slaving is all-around OK, I don't think he'd argue that, but because it shows what he is willing to compromise in order to (he thinks) keep his love. Tho he should learn from the past as apparently his wife is now "in another place, with another man" despite what he did to try to keep her. Take a lesson Jorah!

Let's not forget too that Rhaegar allegedly kidnapped Lyanna... not sure whether to believe that account or not, but if he did, it says something about Selmy if he still thought Rhaegar was a stand up guy. (OR does his opinion of Rhaegar imply that maybe he wasn't the kidnapping fiend Robert portrayed him as?) But I guess that's for another thread.

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Let's not forget too that Rhaegar allegedly kidnapped Lyanna... not sure whether to believe that account or not, but if he did, it says something about Selmy if he still thought Rhaegar was a stand up guy. (OR does his opinion of Rhaegar imply that maybe he wasn't the kidnapping fiend Robert portrayed him as?) But I guess that's for another thread.

Agreed on that, but apparently Rhaegar abandoned his wife and children (to their ultimate deaths) which is something Barristan would know.  

I don't know, remember Ned's "Ser Selmy is a good man, an honorable man! Do not hurt him!" in that debacle in the Throne Room?"  

I've always sort of wondered if that wasn't code for "Not overly bright, but honestly good" kind of like poor Dead(OneEyed)Jory. 

When it comes to Jorah, I thought Ned was being a little too unbending (a characteristic that was often part of the Ned we met...and the one time he bent he did get his head chopped off) , because I don't know what Ned thought the guy should do? Wait and let Ned chop off his head, because that was the honorable thing to do?  That's a high standard for honor, most could not meet, I think.  Even Ned wasn't willing to stubbornly cling to honor to the point of losing his head, for the sake of his children.  

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Agreed on that, but apparently Rhaegar abandoned his wife and children (to their ultimate deaths) which is something Barristan would know. 

I don't know, remember Ned's "Ser Selmy is a good man, an honorable man! Do not hurt him!" in that debacle in the Throne Room?"

I think to Ned honorable meant keeping his vows. Barristan was avowed to protect Rhaegar, so he did, even tho he wasn't an all around perfect guy (see: abandoning wife and children, possibly kidnapping/raping Lyanna) he was sworn to protect him. Perhaps that even meant whitewashing his reputation a bit, even after death. But yeah, I am not gonna distrust Jorah on Selmy's say-so.

 

When it comes to Jorah, I thought Ned was being a little too unbending (a characteristic that was often part of the Ned we met...and the one time he bent he did get his head chopped off) , because I don't know what Ned thought the guy should do? Wait and let Ned chop off his head, because that was the honorable thing to do?  That's a high standard for honor, most could not meet, I think.  Even Ned wasn't willing to stubbornly cling to honor to the point of losing his head, for the sake of his children.

Oh yes very good point, faced with a similar problem, Ned did cave and agreed to say things that were not true to save his head. Yes, for the sake of his family, but I'm sure that wasn't the ONLY reason.

 

I don't think it was any one thing, just something that evolved over time.  He got to know her and decided he liked her, eventually falling in love/lust with her and willing to defend her against her own brother (Viserys was the one Jorah was ostensibly sworn to).  When they were at the wine merchant's that was when his decision was put to the test and he chose Dany over his own home.

I agree, I think he was conflicted, but it didn't get "real" til he realized they might kill her. It was at that moment he realized he had to choose. (It was after that, that he confronted Viserys trying to steal the dragon's eggs--wasn't it? At that point, he had switched loyalties for sure, beyond just keeping Viserys from being an ass to his sister.)

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Right and at the moment Jorah was told to return to the Seven Kingdoms, it became obvious that they had decided to have her killed. Otherwise he would have been needed to continue to spy.  It actually took a fair amount to convince Robert that Dany needed to die because she was pregnant.  Ned was still completely against it, but even Robert took it back on his death bed.  Whatever Robert was, or wasn't, he wasn't so much down with the slaughter of women and children (which is part of the reason I don't believe he'd have killed a child Lyanna had...the Lannisters ordered the slaughter of the Targaryen children, not Robert...but that's a debate for a different thread).  

However, it is important to what happened with Jorah and Jorah's spying.  He'd know Robert's reputation and up until he got his pardon, I don't think Jorah necessarily realized that Robert Baratheon might have Daenarys killed, because to use the modern day slang, that is not how Robert rolled. 

We still don't know how Viserys and Dany ended up at Ilyrio's, if they were spared and exiled or what (seems possible), if loyal servants smuggled them out (also seems possible) or if they were sent overseas at the start of the rebellion for their own protection (seems possible also)  because Dany's mother was actually pregnant with her (still more that is possible).  

Either way, I think there's an argument to be made that Jorah may not have realized Dany's life was in danger from his spying, until it was actually in danger. 

 

 

Oh yes very good point, faced with a similar problem, Ned did cave and agreed to say things that were not true to save his head. Yes, for the sake of his family, but I'm sure that wasn't the ONLY reason.

In fairness to Dead Old Ned, that was the only reason.  Varys had to work pretty hard to convince him that he shouldn't just go ahead and die with his stubborn, cussed honor.  Varys had to convince him that he owed it to his family.  Ned was cussedly honored enough to be okay with dying as a concept, as most warriors actually are. Not that that makes it a reasonable thing to do (die for the sake of honor) but Ned would have.  

Edited by stillshimpy

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However, it is important to what happened with Jorah and Jorah's spying.  He'd know Robert's reputation and up until he got his pardon, I don't think Jorah necessarily realized that Robert Baratheon might have Daenarys killed, because to use the modern day slang, that is not how Robert rolled.

I agree I think it's possible he just thought they wanted to keep tabs on them and make sure they weren't really going to take a Dothraki army across the sea. I think Jorah thought that was unlikely and probably communicated that, but was surprised to realize they were taking it more seriously than he did. At the time the army was supposed to be in the hands of Viserys and c'mon, who really had faith that he was going to pull off an invasion of Westeros... even Dany has barely made any progress on that front.

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I don't think in the GoT world what Jorah did was so awful. Yeah, slavery is supposedly forbidden in Westeros, but that hasn't stoped anyone from keep on selling and buying people. It's not as open as in Essos, where whole economies depend on it, but they still do it. Littlefinger buys and sells women, many of his girls are there against their wishes. Gendry was sold twice, first to the Nights Watch and then to Melissandre. I'm surprised the NW buy boys like that if it's forbidden, but I certainly remember Gendry saying his former master sold him to them, he didn't want to go, but he had no choice.

Plus, the men Jorah was selling had been trespassing his lands, or something. I'm sure Ned would've been fine with following the law against those trespassers, which would probably had been execution. So Jorah probably thought it'd be more practical to have them sold and make some money, than to cut their heads instead.

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I can't say how happy I was that Jorah got to go back to being Dany's wise and trusted counsellor (for a moment anyway).  I used to really enjoy their interactions when he was teaching her the ways of the Dothraki, the history of TPTB (or were at that point) in Westeros.  He lost his mojo when he exposed his love for her and became the friendzone-moper that this thread's title refers to.  

 

Go Jorah.  

 

Further, he expressed concern about what happened to the former slaves that Dany "freed" which tells me that he has either changed his POV on slavery from when he sold his poachers in Westeros, or that act was an aberration; one of a "desperate man", a man who was driven by his desire to please/appease his wife and needed money to do that.  

 

Whatever it was, that scene told me that Jorah is now capable of a principled POV.

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Friend-zone moper!  Love it, Anothermi.  By the way, do we have an official title for what Jorah is to Dany?  Missandrei has succeeded him as translator and Cultural Competency Consultant; Selmy has more-or-less succeeded him as head of the Queen's Guard; Grey Worm has succeeded him as her top commander; Fab!Dario (Fabreeze?)...well.  If we are Jorah, we cannot say too little about that.  

 

What Jorah is and continues to be, is Hand to the Queen.  I wonder if Dany is holding off on assigning him the title because she accepts she is not, yet, the acknowledged Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, or for other reasons.  Oh: and my rewatch confirmed that my memory was (once again) off about whether Dany knows that Jorah was exiled for slave-dealing.  She does know.  Sorry if I confused anyone other than myself!  There is only one "other shoe" impending: that Jorah was originally working for Varys, against her.  Well, that and his reaction to what seems to be simmering between Dany and Fabreeze. 

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I always assumed the slave-selling was a desperate act that he now saw the folly of. I got that sense from season 1 when the subject came up, he seemed regretful about it at the time, and remarked how his wife was now off with some other man anyway. I think he knew it was desperate, and wasn't worth it. I don't think he'd ever have argued otherwise. And yes, Dany has always known he sold slaves, she asked him "why" back in season 1.

 

And yes I am anxiously waiting to see whether his spying past ever comes up again. Seems like it would have to. But I would hope Dany would understand that it is one thing for someone to agree to spy on strangers - and that things changed once he got to know the people he was spying on. The fact that he never did betray her (so far) to her enemies, chose to protect her and never went back home when he had a full pardon for years (at this point) ought to count for something. I guess it depends how those facts all come out.

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Radiant, I agree with all of that, except for one thing, I think Dany is unlikely to understand because he didn't tell her in all the intervening time.  

 

If Jorah's spying ever does come out, and it seems like it must at some point, Jorah's going to have an awfully hard time justifying why he never told her himself, in all the time that passed.  That alone would belie his trustworthiness.  Although I've no clue how Dany would find out since Barristan didn't prove to be the other shoe, perhaps Varys little birds will play some kind of role? No clue what though, but Varys would have an interest in seeing Team Dany ripped asunder while overseas. 

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Also, we viewers were just given a reminder about Jorah's former role, during the most recent ep's Small Council meeting.  I suspect that fragment of dialogue will re-appear very soon, in a Previously.

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And wasn't one of the questions from Tywin "Can your 'little birds' find their way into Meereen?" and then he gets pen and paper.

 

Tywin is going to sew dissent within Dany's camp by spreading the rumor that Jorah is/was a spy for Kings Landing? Devious.

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Tywin is going to sew dissent within Dany's camp by spreading the rumor that Jorah is/was a spy for Kings Landing? Devious.

 

So that's what Tywin meant about using force against Dany, "only if necessary"?  Whoa.  Positively Littlefinglish.  

 

And even as I wondered if "devious" really played to Tywin's strength, an unseen figure in my mind pulled up a chair, tightened its bow, tuned up its strings and began to intone...well, not the one about the plains in Spain.  A better question would be, What doesn't play to Tywin's strength?  But that's a subject for a different thread.  

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Tywin is going to sew dissent within Dany's camp by spreading the rumor that Jorah is/was a spy for Kings Landing? Devious.

 

I thought that Tywin is going to send a letter to Jorah (delivered by Varys little birds like in S1). Perhaps Tywin plans to blackmail Jorah with his past as a spy for Robert. Although I am not sure what he expects Jorah to do.

Edited by arry the orphan

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*cries softly* well of course on THIS show it is not going to happen that Dany will completely understand. I remembered Tywin saying something about "getting a pen and paper" but couldn't remember what that was in regards to (darn me watching this after midnight!) OH NO now I will live in fear the next week (or two, or three) until the inevitable lion's paw drops. :O oh no not my Jorah...

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Radiant, in a million years Dany would never, ever, ever have Jorah killed.  Banish him? Maybe.  Probably, let's face it  But she's alive because of Jorah and not just because of that business with the wine merchant.  I don't think she'd seal Jorah in any vaults or in any way have him harmed.  

 

I think she's just likely to send him away from her for good, if and when she finds out.  

 

Yeah, as soon as they stopped talking about Dany, Tywin sent Mace to fetch his quill and parchment.  Tywin Lannister had Robb, Talisa and Catelyn Stark murdered at a wedding.  He's going to do something fairly horrible and since they were discussing Jorah's change of allegiance and think that bell is likely to toll for Jorah.  

 

However, I don't think Dany will have her strings plucked quite as easily as Botlen, Walder Frey and overly trusting Robb Stark did.  

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However, I don't think Dany will have her strings plucked quite as easily as Botlen, Walder Frey and overly trusting Robb Stark did.

 

Otoh, Dany has a small entourage.  It seems like she's always got a maximum of five people around her whom she trusts, only earlier they were mostly Dothraki (or Dothraki-contracted whores), and now there's one Unsullied and one Second Son in the mix (I'm not sure where Missandei hails from).  I think because she trusts so few people, she will really be cut to the quick by any revelation about Jorah.  And if she exiles him from her little traveling "court," that will leave her with four (Grey Worm, Missandei, Daario, Barristan).  I just think that any diminishment of the people around her makes her much more vulnerable to attack.  I don't know what Tywin's ultimate plan is, though, so we'll see how it plays out.  

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Radiant, in a million years Dany would never, ever, ever have Jorah killed.  Banish him? Maybe.  Probably, let's face it  But she's alive because of Jorah and not just because of that business with the wine merchant.  I don't think she'd seal Jorah in any vaults or in any way have him harmed. 

 

I think she's just likely to send him away from her for good, if and when she finds out.

 

Still painful, maybe worse! LOL

 

But yeah I agree that something involving Jorah is the most likely scenario for Tywin's Plan, because they have no other contacts/"ins" in that group. Unless they try to bribe away the sellswords, but that seems unlikely.

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But yeah I agree that something involving Jorah is the most likely scenario for Tywin's Plan, because they have no other contacts/"ins" in that group. Unless they try to bribe away the sellswords, but that seems unlikely.

 

Of course, the other thing to keep in mind for the "Tywin is clearly going to try and start some serious shit within the ranks" is that, simply put, trying is not the same as succeeding.  All Tywin may do is actually succeed in bringing Jorah's former spying to light, at which time Dany might say, "I'm terribly disappointed, but looking back, I can also see that you are and have been since then, my most loyal friend.  Forgiven.  Don't do that again."  

 

Seriously, just because Twyin is trying to do his Tywin thing and weaken a structure doesn't mean that is what will happen.  Tywin may spectacularly fail and just further solidify the thing he seeks to destroy. 

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Of course, the other thing to keep in mind for the "Tywin is clearly going to try and start some serious shit within the ranks" is that, simply put, trying is not the same as succeeding.  All Tywin may do is actually succeed in bringing Jorah's former spying to light, at which time Dany might say, "I'm terribly disappointed, but looking back, I can also see that you are and have been since then, my most loyal friend.  Forgiven.  Don't do that again."

 

On this show?? unlikely :)  But you know what, I do like the idea of Tywin suddenly failing when it comes to sabotaging Dany just because he has been on a successful run almost to match hers, at this point. Who can say who will come out on top??

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Exactly, no matter who comes out on top in this one, the story is poised for someone on a big winning streak to lose one.  

 

I'm thinking it's Tywin's season to Faceplant. 

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Oooookay.  

 

So did Jorah just join the long list of characters we apparently never get to see again?  Is he Milk Cartoned?  Will he still hang out, waiting to see if there is some way back into Dany's good graces?  

 

Maybe he could go to wherever Daario and plead his case there?  I was so afraid that Jorah was going to hurt or kill Barrister when he brought the pardon to Jorah first.  I'm so glad he didn't, but it was painful to see Jorah beg Dany for forgiveness and for her opt not to forgive him.   I mean, again, it's better than having him killed, but I never thought Dany would have Jorah killed.  

 

I really can't even believe that it played out a) almost the way I thought it would, because that's a rarity for me but also, b) that it was a scene conducted at an emotional remove for Dany.  He saved her life so many times, he would have gone into the freakshow that was the House of the Undying with her.  

 

It does make sense, after all, Dany had been betrayed by her hand maiden and Jorah's fate was pretty much sealed at that point, because it got Dany's loyal followers killed.  Still. I guess I wanted to see Dany struggle a bit more with her decision.  

Edited by stillshimpy

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