Gargoyles - General Discussion

[DisneyBoy]

That third season episode was one of the few I watched just to see what they would do with the human concept and I was also immediately struck by the fact that he was white. I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering the way white is considered the default in North America, but I definitely don't think of Goliath as white. And it's not just because Keith David provides the voice. There's just something wonderful about how this show makes you want to see people of all different colors and creeds represented.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

That third season episode was one of the few I watched just to see what they would do with the human concept and I was also immediately struck by the fact that he was white. I guess it shouldn't be surprising considering the way white is considered the default in North America, but I definitely don't think of Goliath as white. And it's not just because Keith David provides the voice. There's just something wonderful about how this show makes you want to see people of all different colors and creeds represented.

True, but what separated this show from everything else, during the time, was its diversity of the characters, and how they were animated.  Derek and Elisa, brother and sister--children of an interracial couple-half Native American, half African American, with Derek favoring mom, and Elisa, favoring her father. And their lieutenant, who was Latina. Or Hispanic. Apologies if I'm getting her racial make-up incorrect.  So it was very disappointing to see what they did to Goliath in this horrible, horrible, third season.

[catray]

Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

[DisneyBoy]

That's exactly what I was getting at. I don't think of a human Goliath as a Bruce Wayne clone. But then if I recall correctly the Goliath Chronicles also showed the Gargoyles recklessly battling with human beings with no regard for their safety. The Gargoyles in the episodes Weisman produced always showed great restraint.

 

And now for my reviews of issues 3, 4, 5 and 6!

 

I really liked seeing another halloween-themed story as well as the ensuing costumes. Lexington, Broadway and Angela as the Tin Man, Cowardly Lion and Dorothy made perfect sense. And considering the way Weisman was trying to separate Brooklyn from the group in preparation for a spin-off, I suppose I shouldn't have been surprised that his costume deviated from The Wizard of Oz theme. Instead of being the Scarecrow to complete the trio, he's Superman. Clearly this guy wants to be his own leading character and not a supporting one in someone else's story. A subtle touch.

I'm not sure that I agree that Brooklyn should have his own series, whether an animated one or in comics, but I suppose Weisman had his own ideas there.

I like catching up with all of the supporting characters, but you quickly see how dense the Gargoyles mythology gets when you cram a dozen or more into a book like this. I was never really clear on the purpose of creating clones like Hollywood, Brentwood and Malibu in the first place. The tampering with nature theme had already been dealt with when Elisa's brother Derek was transformed...did they have to continue down a similar road by combining DNA samples to make clones? I'm waiting for them to serve a purpose or become interesting. Once again here they are presented as intellectually stunted and the free will question is repeated yet again. To what end?

Delilah is used very poorly here, as a literal replacement for Elisa in Goliath's life. The drama between these two lovebirds is undeniably forced and sudden... but to have Goliath start parading around with a clone of his two exes is about the least classy thing I can think of. Elisa randomly dating Morgan feels normal by comparison. Whatever. The entire subplot is dumb and thankfully the book has better things to offer than just that.

I'm interested to see where the Illuminati subplot is going and I like that Weisman is fleshing that whole thing out a bit and not just relying on The Quarrymen as the driving force behind the narrative.

Hudson coming out to his blind friend, so to speak, is also a nice touch if a bit random. I like their relationship and hoped to see the supporting character get a bit more time in the spotlight...unlike Margot who continues to baffle me. Her schtick of whining at her boyfriend was fine in the animated series but now that she's supposed to be someone of prominence in New York City it's just grating. Break up or shut up.

The final story of the first volume of Clan Building is a World Tour flashback tale explaining how Goliath, Elisa, Bronx and Angela stumbled across Coldstone near a monastery. It doesn't give us much more than that and serves only to reiterate the internal conflict within the character which has been so clearly defined in the past I wonder why it needed to once again be the focus of an entire issue. Is Weisman aiming these books at drawing in new readers? It feels like he's trying to, while at the same time pushing the story forward. It should be working except it doesn't seem to be. There's something clunky about it.

I have no idea who this goth narrator chick is who attends to Thailog as though he's a Greek Emperor. At first I thought she was some kind of clone of Elisa based on the vague artwork. Is she from the show? How does she know anything about the World Tour?

Artwork in the book is a little bit more stable with guest artist Karine Charlebois proving most adept at capturing the look of the series. You can clearly tell she loves the animation from the show and wants to replicate it for other fans and that is appreciated. Her take on Elisa isn't all that strong, but I'll forgive it for her masterful depiction of the Gargoyles and willingness to use screen captures as reference. Nice angles and proportions too!

If the book had been released on time, if there had been one stable artist doing all of the work on the interior pages, if they hadn't pushed this bizarre Goliath/Elisa premature breakup and maybe dialed back featuring all the clones so early in the run I think this series would have been a much bigger hit.

 

I'll take a break before reviewing Vol 2 and the final issues so that we all have a chance to discuss.

Edited September 16, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, catray said:

Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

Not just that, but very daring, considering it was a show geared toward children--and they showed the blood pooling underneath Elisa when Broadway accidentally shot her. That remains one of my favorite episodes. Though the top faves are the ones that demonstrated the growing romance/love between Elisa and Goliath. Yes! I TOTALLY shipped them! And cackled when Demona saw that relationship unfolding!

ETA: And on that note, I think I'll go rewatch! Season One, here I come!

Edited September 17, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule
Because Bronx was the DOG Gargoyle! yeesh.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hakon (tearing pages out of Magus's book of spells) : "Magic Spells! HAH! Makes me glad I can't read!"

"The Awakening, Part Two."

Clancy Brown was just a GEM! His Hakon scared me and made me laugh!

Edited September 17, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[DisneyBoy]

I've got to say, I love the design of Elisa's apartment. I have no idea what part of Manhattan she was supposed to be in, but I thought her apartment was crazy cool.

[AndySmith]

I think Marina might be more respected than Troi, if that makes sense? I always liked Troi, so what do I know lol

But yeah, Marina killed it as Demona.

Edited September 17, 2016 by AndySmith

[AndySmith]

Quote

but the World Tour was a bit exhausting back in the day.  I remember thinking I didn't appreciate having so much dry cultural history inserted into the series, but now that I'm older, I appreciate the lengths they went to to ensure the show had content.

I always liked the World Tour, especially since we got to see some different types of Gargoyles. The UK and South American episodes had the "good" animation, but sadly, they dropped the ball on Japan, which had the "bad" animation (if you're a fan you know what I mean).

And the episode with the alternate future was awesome.

[DisneyBoy]

Okay, I admit it, I couldn't wait and binged on the final issues...

 

Clan Building Vol 2 was really tricky for me to follow. Weisman really enjoys having a cast of dozens and it makes it impossible for me to keep track of what's going on much less about the emotional arcs of the characters. The story about the Stone of Destiny jumped around so much in time that I honestly couldn't get any enjoyment out of it until it was almost over and I could put things into a bit of perspective. And was it necessary to devote several panels to the idea of Fox buying a pair of shoes, just so that we knew where the shoe box that was believed to be a bomb would come from? This jumping through time approach to narrative structure sometimes yields interesting results. Here it was just complicating the story. At least for me.

David Hedgecock's artwork improved quite a bit but by and far the best work in the second volume was that of Greg Guler, though that shouldn't be a surprise. He was a character designer on the animated series and has worked in the animation industry for years. It's a real shame he didn't get to do more than just cover art on these issues.

My favorite story was definitely the final one, begun in issue 10, simply because it's pretty straightforward. Brooklyn ends up swallowed by the Phoenix of the Phoenix Gate, and sent back in time to deal with two characters left over from the Avalon storyline. I couldn't keep track of any of the Scottish politics however. I feel like I need to have studied as much as Weisman to understand exactly who is who. So many weird Scottish names! Nevertheless, the story was straightforward enough that I could enjoy seeing Brooklyn trying to help these two ladies escape certain death, team up with Demona, and ultimately return to the present of 1997.

I wonder though if Weisman really intended for issue 12 to conclude with so many gargoyles as part of the Manhattan Clan. I liked seeing Griff again and got a bit of a kick out of his two presumably gay cohorts, the female pig gargoyle and the male reindeer, who I only assume is supposed to become Lex's boyfriend at some point.

The Timedancer spin-off presumably would have not spoiled the reveal of Brooklyn's ultimate mate right off the bat, right? So to have him just return from the future saying "Meet my family!" is a bit awkward and disappointing. It suggests that Weisman tacked it into the final issue knowing the series was essentially cancelled.

I'm picking on this simply because I don't know how on earth he would write around that big surprise reveal if a Gargoyles comic book series ended up getting published again someday. Doesn't it take a bit of the excitement out of Brooklyn's story to know how it ends? Plus, I'm just getting really sick of flashbacks in the Gargoyles universe. I would definitely prefer a chronological narrative if only because I can't keep everything straight even with little boxes to remind me which century and which month of which year we are in. *sigh*

I'll give him credit for covering a lot of territory in these 12 issues, but I feel like the time was slightly misused. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we didn't just spend 12 issues watching the Quarrymen do their thing, but there was just way too much to chew on here to the point where only the most fanatical of Gargoyles enthusiasts will remember who half these characters are well enough to follow what's happening. I've watched the entire series through at least twice and as I said I often found myself drawing a blank.

Apparently the Bad Guys comic continued to explore the idea of the Illuminati. Did anybody read it and if so, did it push that narrative forward in any significant way? Or, like this book did it just give us more and more and more supporting characters to try and keep track of?

I guess it sounds like I'm complaining and didn't enjoy reading these, but I would prefer if Gargoyles would keep it simple and let the reader actually get invested in certain characters.

The coloring in the book was really strong and I'm glad at least that we got to have moments with so many characters. Brooklyn seeing his own statue was interesting, and Macbeth and Arthur talking about immortality was definitely memorable.

There is so much potential for this property if only Weisman wouldn't complicate matters to the point of turning readers off. I hope he gets the chance to write for these characters again and soon. Otherwise Disney will just reboot the whole property in a couple of years as a CGI film or live action film and everything will be changed.

This is just a detail, but does it change anything significant in the continuity of the television series for Demona of 1997 to remember that Brooklyn fought alongside her after his clan was put to sleep in the past?

Edited September 17, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[GHScorpiosRule]

I've read it in the imdb "synopsis" and here also, that Castaway is John Canmore, which...unless he aged like 10 years and grew six inches within a few weeks, I don't buy. At all. I know Weissman wrote "Journey" which was the pilot for this, and then left Disney, I guess. It's just...horrible. All of it is just very, very bad. The fears of the people about what the Gargoyles would do to their children. No one ever asked or it was never pointed out--they've been around for two years, and nothing happened to your children or YOU when they were hiding. Now that you know they exist, suddenly you're scared? The only person out of all these idiots who I came to love even more was Vinnie--the doofus who hit Goliath with a banana cream pie in "Vendettas."

And how whiny and weak they made Fox. She seemed to find her backbone in "Broadway Goes to Hollywood," but this series is just so horrible.

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 10:12 AM, DisneyBoy said:

I've got to say, I love the design of Elisa's apartment. I have no idea what part of Manhattan she was supposed to be in, but I thought her apartment was crazy cool.

As a kid, that was my dream apartment. I have to wonder how was she able to afford that on a cop's salary.

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 10:15 AM, DisneyBoy said:

She and Macbeth are interviewed on a late-night television show debating the potential threat of gargoyles. He has apparently written a book on the creatures, which surprised me because I don't remember him ever wanting to be an author.

The biggest weird point of the issue is Goliath suddenly being sullen about the thought of being "alone". Hadn't he just finished a world tour that revealed the existence of dozens and dozens of other gargoyles? Hadn't he just hooked up with Elisa? Hadn't they just regained their ancestral home? That seems like a lot to be upbeat about.

I'll chime back in with a review of issue 3 and whatever follows!

Issues 1 and 2 is pretty much word for word of 'The Journey.' MacBeth had to make money someway over the years. ;) Besides he has to do something beside chasing Demona for nearly a 1000 years. I can see MacBeth writing a book. He's lived through history so he can be more accurate than anyone. I was surprised at him coming to the defense of the gargoyles but then I remembered MacBeth isn't essentially a bad guy and doesn't have hatred towards all gargoyles. Just Demona. 

I think Goliath moaning about being alone is a plot point. I think after the World Tour a burdened was released from him. Ever since he awakened in Manhattan, Goliath thought they were the last gargoyles and their kind will end with them. Since the World Tour, he realized that's not the case and he knows after him, their kind will go on and so will his clan with Brooklyn as leader.

I totally agree about Goliath being upbeat at the end of Season Two. Sure the world knows about gargoyles but he's ultimately happy. His clan is back at their ancestral home and his love for Elisa is being received and they are going to go forward with it.

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 7:49 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

In the original, first season, "The Mirror" when he became human for a nano-second, he had the look of a man who was Native American, or someone who was person of color. That pale-faced, buzzed hair dude? Blech. His human self in the first season? ROWR! along with his long, black locks.

What?

I'm with you on sexy chocolate Goliath in The Mirror. LOL! If they were stuck human, Elisa would've been all over him that same night. I imagine if Elisa was stuck a gargoyle, Goliath would be pursuing her as a mate immediately.

 

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:36 PM, DisneyBoy said:

I'm not sure that I agree that Brooklyn should have his own series, whether an animated one or in comics, but I suppose Weisman had his own ideas there.

I like catching up with all of the supporting characters, but you quickly see how dense the Gargoyles mythology gets when you cram a dozen or more into a book like this. I was never really clear on the purpose of creating clones like Hollywood, Brentwood and Malibu in the first place. The tampering with nature theme had already been dealt with when Elisa's brother Derek was transformed...did they have to continue down a similar road by combining DNA samples to make clones? I'm waiting for them to serve a purpose or become interesting. Once again here they are presented as intellectually stunted and the free will question is repeated yet again. To what end?

Delilah is used very poorly here, as a literal replacement for Elisa in Goliath's life. The drama between these two lovebirds is undeniably forced and sudden... but to have Goliath start parading around with a clone of his two exes is about the least classy thing I can think of. Elisa randomly dating Morgan feels normal by comparison. Whatever. The entire subplot is dumb and thankfully the book has better things to offer than just that.

The final story of the first volume of Clan Building is a World Tour flashback tale explaining how Goliath, Elisa, Bronx and Angela stumbled across Coldstone near a monastery. It doesn't give us much more than that and serves only to reiterate the internal conflict within the character which has been so clearly defined in the past I wonder why it needed to once again be the focus of an entire issue. Is Weisman aiming these books at drawing in new readers? It feels like he's trying to, while at the same time pushing the story forward. It should be working except it doesn't seem to be. There's something clunky about it.

I have no idea who this goth narrator chick is who attends to Thailog as though he's a Greek Emperor. At first I thought she was some kind of clone of Elisa based on the vague artwork. Is she from the show? How does she know anything about the World Tour?

Artwork in the book is a little bit more stable with guest artist Karine Charlebois proving most adept at capturing the look of the series. You can clearly tell she loves the animation from the show and wants to replicate it for other fans and that is appreciated. Her take on Elisa isn't all that strong, but I'll forgive it for her masterful depiction of the Gargoyles and willingness to use screen captures as reference. Nice angles and proportions too!

If the book had been released on time, if there had been one stable artist doing all of the work on the interior pages, if they hadn't pushed this bizarre Goliath/Elisa premature breakup and maybe dialed back featuring all the clones so early in the run I think this series would have been a much bigger hit.

 

I'll take a break before reviewing Vol 2 and the final issues so that we all have a chance to discuss.

I wonder if Weisman wanted to give Brooklyn his own series due to his friendship with voice actor Jeff Bennett or maybe  a way of making it up to fans for not displaying Brooklyn a lot. I can't remember if it was on a commentary or on the Ask Greg blog that's on the Gargoyles website where Weisman admitted surprise at Brooklyn being a fan favorite. Weisman was clueless to the fact fans didn't like how Hudson and the trio and Matt were written out during the World Tour. I love Goliath and Elisa but I agree they shouldn't have been written out. If anything, during the World Tour maybe one episode should've occurred in New York and the other three on the World Tour. Thankfully Greg Paur wisened Weisman that we needed to see what's happening with the gargoyles in New York.

Maybe Greg did so many flashbacks because he thought the readers needed a refresher but we don't. We have the DVDs.

I personally thought the Goliath and Elisa breakup was forced and came out of left field. They are gonna have enough drama as it is with their relationship from outsiders, they don't need to add anything among themselves. Other than Beth and maybe her Mom I can't imagine Elisa's Dad and Derek being entirely supportive and what of the clan? Sure they accept Elisa and love her but I'm not sure if everyone will be on board with them. I think Hudson and maybe Lexington might question it. I think they would come around but in the beginning I think there would be doubts and concerns. 

Goliath only paraded Delilah because Elisa told him to date her which is stupid on so many levels. Bad execution all around.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As for Derek not being supportive of this relationship? Hellooo!!! Unless he's no longer Talon, makes no...oh wait. Maggie's not human, so I guess that has some merit. I guess.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Clan knew how Goliath and Elisa felt about each other, and even in "Journey" when he tells Hudson and Brooklyn that he's going to see Elisa, they seem happy...that is, no words about any concerns, considering that it was a social visit. Then again, it was tv/cartoon, and geared toward kids, so I doubt they'd write that in, considering the build up to the relationship/romance between Goliath and Elisa.

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:25 PM, catray said:

Yeah, when you consider when Gargoyles was on the air, it's actually ahead of it's time in terms having a diverse cast of characters, especially with Elisa as the main (or co) protagonist of the series! Personally, I love that the gargoyles come in all colors/shapes/features... all unique and beautiful in their own way, which says a lot.

I remember my Mom saying Gargoyles was a very mature show for a cartoon and she's right. It dealt with so many themes like racism, gun violence, tolerance, that you don't see in cartoons, especially today. I have to explain. The reason my Mom saw Gargoyles is because of Awakening Part Two. She was cooking dinner when she heard Xanatos say "Hell." She was concerned Hell was being used in a cartoon and she questioned me on what kind of show this was. LOL! She sat  with me through the rest of episode and since I had already taped "Awakening" that evening we watched the whole thing. Mom gave her approval and  thought it was a good but a very mature show for kids. She asked "When did cartoons get so mature?" LOL! Even though she didn't watch every episode with me, she did watch a few. I remember watching 'Vows' with Mom. When Goliath went to the wedding, I was mad and Mom said, "Goliath is going to be in the doghouse with Elisa for a while." LOL!  

[Arcadiasw]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As for Derek not being supportive of this relationship? Hellooo!!! Unless he's no longer Talon, makes no...oh wait. Maggie's not human, so I guess that has some merit. I guess.

I'm pretty sure the rest of the Clan knew how Goliath and Elisa felt about each other, and even in "Journey" when he tells Hudson and Brooklyn that he's going to see Elisa, they seem happy...that is, no words about any concerns, considering that it was a social visit. Then again, it was tv/cartoon, and geared toward kids, so I doubt they'd write that in, considering the build up to the relationship/romance between Goliath and Elisa.

They broke up temporary. Elisa visit Jason Canmore who reveal he knew who the someone else is and got in her head that Elisa should be with a MAN who could give her everything and in Jason's opinion that's not Goliath. Elisa went to Goliath suggesting they break up because he can't give her everything like normalcy, picnics in the day, kids and a house in the suburbs. Elisa told Goliath he should be with someone who could give him what he needed and there's a potential mate for him in Delilah. Goliath's reaction is WTF?  But he did what Elisa said, asked Delilah out and totally C-block Brooklyn who was going to ask Delilah out. LOL! Elisa came to her senses when Goliath nearly died at the Halloween party and they got back together.

Derek is 'special' I think Derek and any family opposing the relationship might be concern at what dangers it will bring her. They would have some valid points. Elisa nearly died many times because of  her ties to the Gargoyles and with the creation of the Quarryman, you know what they will do to Elisa if they knew how close she and Goliath were.

Same with any gargoyles questioning the relationship. Brooklyn and Broadway would be cool with it, especially Broadway.  I think Lexington might question it because he may still have some jaded feelings towards humans because of Fox and in Future Tenses which Puck never said it was a dream or prophecy. I think Hudson may have parental concerns because there is inherit danger of the two coming together. But like I said in another post they would come around.

I really wished we got to see Demona's reaction to the relationship. She's always suspected but seeing Goliath makeout with Elisa would be definitive proof and seeing her go nuts and try to plot some crazy revenge would've been glorious!

[Arcadiasw]

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I've read it in the imdb "synopsis" and here also, that Castaway is John Canmore, which...unless he aged like 10 years and grew six inches within a few weeks, I don't buy. At all. I know Weissman wrote "Journey" which was the pilot for this, and then left Disney, I guess. It's just...horrible. All of it is just very, very bad. The fears of the people about what the Gargoyles would do to their children. No one ever asked or it was never pointed out--they've been around for two years, and nothing happened to your children or YOU when they were hiding. Now that you know they exist, suddenly you're scared? The only person out of all these idiots who I came to love even more was Vinnie--the doofus who hit Goliath with a banana cream pie in "Vendettas."

And how whiny and weak they made Fox. She seemed to find her backbone in "Broadway Goes to Hollywood," but this series is just so horrible.

I think plastic surgery was the excuse for the change in Jon Canmore's face but I didn't buy it. The Journey took place a day or two after Hunter's Moon. For the Quarrymen to get their uniforms, the specially made hammers and Jon get his plastic surgery that should take a few weeks at least. It's bad all around and I think if the show never went to ABC and stayed in syndication with more than 13 episodes a proper storyline would've been fleshed out.

[GHScorpiosRule]

31 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

I think plastic surgery was the excuse for the change in Jon Canmore's face but I didn't buy it. The Journey took place a day or two after Hunter's Moon. For the Quarrymen to get their uniforms, the specially made hammers and Jon get his plastic surgery that should take a few weeks at least. It's bad all around and I think if the show never went to ABC and stayed in syndication with more than 13 episodes a proper storyline would've been fleshed out.

Oh please. Especially since the premiere was a few days after the end of "Hunter's Moon"--there's NO WAY John could have bulked up that much, not to mention, when one is angry, or excitable, their natural accent comes out, and John is SCOTTISH, not English, and it was a SCOT who provided the voice for him in this "incarnation" one talented Alan Cumming. Plastic surgery also wouldn't have given him a growth spurt.

But I agree, if Weisman and the show had remained in syndication, with the same writers and actors, it would have given them time to flesh it out.

[GHScorpiosRule]

That Elisa would even listen to Jason after what he did...UGH...GRRRRRRRR....ARGHHHH!!!!!!!!

When I can afford it, I'll have to get those issues. How many are we talkin' aboot here?

[Arcadiasw]

There were two volumes. I got mine on Amazon three years ago but it's out of print there and the sellers prices are crazy. I don't know who else will sell them at a reasonable price.

I scanned them for a friend when I got them but it's on an old computer. I can send them to you if you want. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 minutes ago, Arcadiasw said:

There were two volumes. I got mine on Amazon three years ago but it's out of print there and the sellers prices are crazy. I don't know who else will sell them at a reasonable price.

I scanned them for a friend when I got them but it's on an old computer. I can send them to you if you want. 

No worries. @DisneyBoy sent me a link as to where I can get them. I haven't checked it out or what the price is.

[DisneyBoy]

Just click the link ;) It's all 12 issues of fun, mixed with a teeny bit of hun?? and some yikes!

Quote

I suppose I don't have any standing in saying this, as I haven't read the comics, but just based on what I read above, say whaaaat? Goliath and Elisa are broken up???!!!! See Thee Naaaaay!!!!

As Arcadia explained so well, it didn't make any sense and was forced...and then promptly resolved.

Quote

They are gonna have enough drama as it is with their relationship from outsiders, they don't need to add anything among themselves.

Exactly.

Quote

I really wished we got to see Demona's reaction to the relationship. She's always suspected but seeing Goliath makeout with Elisa would be definitive proof and seeing her go nuts and try to plot some crazy revenge would've been glorious!

Yeesssss. There was definitely a missed opportunity there. Strange that we get to see 997 Demona in these books more than 1997 Demona.

Quote

I remember watching 'Vows' with Mom. When Goliath went to the wedding, I was mad and Mom said, "Goliath is going to be in the doghouse with Elisa for a while." LOL!  

Ha! I love that your mom watched the show with you. She sounds cool.

Edited September 21, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[GHScorpiosRule]

Clicked @DisneyBoy and had to also download a stupid app in order to read them. Only got as far as the first one? Something about the view from up there? Anyhoo, first of all, the hair color for Matt is all WRONG! He's a Redhead, not a blonde! And he's supposed to already KNOW about the Gargoyles! Or is that a prequel??? And Demona looks FUGLY as all get out. 

The animation in the 'toon was so much better than these comics! What the hell happened?

[DisneyBoy]

Apparently the artist didn't have an inker to work with. Frankly I just think the artist was too green to handle a property like this. These are complicated designs. If you keep reading you'll see Karine Charlebois work and that's much better and then in the second volume you'll see the work of the cover artist Greg Guler who is really terrific. Hedgecock does get better as the issues progress but it is pretty wonky throughout.

I glimpsed an interview where either Greg Weisman or someone at Slave Labor Graphics admitted that the company just didn't have the resources it needed to properly do the book. The Bad Guys comics were even in black-and-white to save on costs. It's a shame.

Matt does know about the Gargoyles and the Illuminati. I think in the first issues he's just playing dumb because he wants to keep a low profile.

 

I'm surprised you had to download something just to read them because I I think I was able to view them very easily. But I'm far from tech savvy so maybe I just got lucky this time :)

Edited September 21, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[DisneyBoy]

Wait...the head of the Quarrymen is one of the siblings from Hunter's Moon? I really didn't see that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yeah, I had to download them into my dropbox (had to create an account) and the extension/file was .crbz or something.

Just finished the Building of the Clan, and what a GYP! What was the point of Shari being the Shahrazad to Thailog's "King?" And I hated that he always wins and never loses. And it just...ends. I was hoping he'd die or something.  And then the slapdash reunion of Goliath and Elisa. A big GIANT FU to fans me, because the I love yous while Goliath is bleeding out, was NOT ENOUGH. Or the kissies.

And then just going back in time to see what happened with Constantine, Finella, etc. The only good thing to come out of that was Brooklyn finally finding his mate and getting his own family.

So now I needs to take a break before I read the next volume with the more horrid animation.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, DisneyBoy said:

Wait...the head of the Quarrymen is one of the siblings from Hunter's Moon? I really didn't see that.

That's what the people who made this are saying and treating those of us who watched the original cartoon as idiots who can't count.

[DisneyBoy]

...actually, that's the whole thing. The other folder has the 90s Marvel Gargoyles books, which aren't canon.

Quote

What was the point of Shari being the Shahrazad to Thailog's "King?"

Furthermore, who is Shari anyway??

[DisneyBoy]

I love that they brought back the Archmage and David Warner for the second season. They really made him into an awesome villain after being a one-note character. I wonder if we would have seen more of him...

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 9/14/2016 at 6:07 PM, catray said:

It annoys me that a) I missed these when they were released and b) they are impossible to get these days. I only read the first collected volume (Clan Builiding Vol 1) and I don't remember a whole lot about it except doesn't Elisa go on a date with Morgan?! I remember finding that very bizarre.

I had a MAJOR WTF over this--mainly because he had NEVER shown any interest in her in the cartoon, and he struck me as someone older, closer to Peter Maza's age, and then the whole uniform/detective imbalance/fraternization issue that could be an issue. Blech. I just skimmed over all that. And BOY was Elisa STOOPID. She was taken over and I will choose to believe that was Pod!Elisa and the real one returned when she saw Goliath bleeding out.  And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

On 9/15/2016 at 2:50 PM, catray said:

Well, the animated third season was mostly terrible except for the first two episodes, and I would say the comic hews pretty closely to those two episodes overall (there are some minor changes of course, but I can't remember details because it's been ages since I saw those episodes and I don't think they are currently available anywhere).

I found a site where you can watch them free online! Someone gave me this link so I could watch The Ultimate Spiderman--I wanted to find out why it was so reviled,etc., etc. Just plug in Gargoyles in the search box, and voila!

http://kisscartoon.me/

[GHScorpiosRule]

4 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

...actually, that's the whole thing. The other folder has the 90s Marvel Gargoyles books, which aren't canon.

Furthermore, who is Shari anyway??

Now THAT makes sense, since they're all fugly, don't look like they're supposed to, and Matt is a freakin' Blonde and ignorant of the Gargoyles.

She was some homeless person who was welcomed where Talon's labyrinth was? And then turns out both she and Thailog (??!!!) are a part of the Illuminati??! WTF? and that that bespectacled dude, 32, who we saw in the 'toons wanted the Gargoyles destroyed? Or did he just say that to Castaway to misdirect? And again just left that plot hanging to just frustrate this fan/reader.

Either way, Shari was supposed to bring Thailog down or something and I didn't get the point of it or her story telling of the world's history, for it to lead...nowhere.

[GHScorpiosRule]

David Warner is so deliciously awesome in playing Villains! He was also R'as Al Ghul in B:TAS, as well. Heck, this show used a lot of the great voice actors from that show-- Lex Luthor Clancy Brown to play Hakon and his mutated descendant; David Warner. And then Keith returned the favor as a villain in Justice League.

But damn, after reading the comics, I'm pissed off again, so will be going back to REWATCH the cartoon, just because.

[DisneyBoy]

Quote

And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

I think the idea is that Alex is aging rapidly because of the Magic in his blood. That scene where someone points out that he looks older than he should was Greg's way of hinting at that.

Quote

Either way, Shari was supposed to bring Thailog down or something and I didn't get the point of it or her story telling of the world's history, for it to lead...nowhere.

Thanks. I have exactly zero recollection of her. But again, there are about 30 random supporting characters in the series so I can't possibly be expected to remember all of them, can I?

Careful with posting links to things on the boards. Sometimes the mods don't like it.

 

Apparently some of the plot lines involving the Illuminati are followed up on in Greg's Bad Guys comic, so if any of you find that series let me know and send me a private message and I'll do the same.

Edited September 22, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

I think the idea is that Alex is aging rapidly because of the Magic in his blood. That scene where someone points out that he looks older than he should was Greg's way of hinting at that.

 

Which is stupid, since it's always been the opposite with magikal characters-that they age more slowly than mere mortals. Otherwise Puck would look like a beyond wrinkled prune.

[DisneyBoy]

I don't think Greg ever laid out specific rules about how magic ages characters. Maybe it gets them to puberty faster and then allows them to stay in peak form for an almost unlimited amount of time?

Or maybe Puck/Owen is purposefully trying to get Alex to come of age quickly for some reason that Fox and Xanatos agree with...

[GHScorpiosRule]

Sorry. Not buying it. Especially since Alex looked like he was still an infant when at least 6 months had gone by toward the end of season two.

Admittedly, I'm anal-retentive about stuff like this.???

[Arcadiasw]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 1:50 PM, DisneyBoy said:

Ha! I love that your mom watched the show with you. She sounds cool.

Thanks. It was fun watching the show with Mom. We would talk and speculate afterwards. She's Goliath and Elisa fan too. They reminded her of Vincent and Catherine from Beauty and the Beast. It's one of the reasons I encourage my friends to watch shows with their kids or don't be too quick to judge a show their kids like but they've not seen.  It's good bonding and as adults we're going to remember these moments especially when we have kids on our own.

 

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 5:33 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I had a MAJOR WTF over this--mainly because he had NEVER shown any interest in her in the cartoon, and he struck me as someone older, closer to Peter Maza's age, and then the whole uniform/detective imbalance/fraternization issue that could be an issue. Blech. I just skimmed over all that. And BOY was Elisa STOOPID. She was taken over and I will choose to believe that was Pod!Elisa and the real one returned when she saw Goliath bleeding out.  And I see they did some SORASing with Alex. He should be around two, not close to four, based on the timeline. GAH.

I found a site where you can watch them free online! Someone gave me this link so I could watch The Ultimate Spiderman--I wanted to find out why it was so reviled,etc., etc. Just plug in Gargoyles in the search box, and voila!

http://kisscartoon.me/

Greg Weisman explained on his Ask Greg blog he thought it was fun to create an Elisa/Morgan/Goliath triangle because Keith David voiced Goliath and Morgan which is silly IMO. As it has been stated Morgan always came off as a fatherly figure towards Elisa. It could've been worse. Elisa could've tried dating Jason after breaking up with Goliath.

 

6 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Sorry. Not buying it. Especially since Alex looked like he was still an infant when at least 6 months had gone by toward the end of season two.

Admittedly, I'm anal-retentive about stuff like this.???

How old was Alex in Hunter's Moon? I assumed Alex was supposed be three or four months even though he appeared older. That's only because I thought Hunter's Moon occurred at the end of September or early October going on when the Canmore's father died in Paris in 1980. During "The Gathering" Brooklyn mention a heatwave the city was going through. I assumed that was June. Don't know if it was fact or not but I've read in forums that Goliath and Elisa were gone for six months in real time. I assumed they left New York in January. Yes, I've thought about this way too much. :P

 

The art was very subpar but good stories would've made up for it. I think the comics would've lasted longer if Greg Weisman focused on the storylines and the cliffhangers that developed at the end of Season Two: Goliath and Elisa dating and their family reactions, the gargoyles adjusting to life back at the castle with Xanatos, the rise of the Quarryman,John Canmore change into John Castaway, Jason and Robyn, Demona's reaction to Goliath and Elisa and her relationship with Angela. the city reaction to gargoyles, Broadway and Angela's budding romance instead of the rushed they're in love even though we didn't see any attraction between them except when Coldstone and Coldfire possessed them. After addressing those issues, readership would've been good enough for Greg to bring in the Illumanati, Stone of Destiny, Thailog, Shari and Brooklyn's family. 

[Arcadiasw]

I treat anything after Hunter's Moon Part Three as non canon. Journey was okay but too many things were jammed in to be legitimate cannon to me.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

Greg Weisman explained on his Ask Greg blog he thought it was fun to create an Elisa/Morgan/Goliath triangle because Keith David voiced Goliath and Morgan which is silly IMO. As it has been stated Morgan always came off as a fatherly figure towards Elisa. It could've been worse. Elisa could've tried dating Jason after breaking up with Goliath.

That has got to be the lamest, stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Oh, Perish the thought! Do you think he even thought about having her date a man who was going to kill her family, and was responsible for destroying their second home and would have killed her, if he hadn't gone in, drugged her and kidnapped her? Speaking of which, that scene where she pulls of the Hunter's mask and sees it's Jason, and he shoots her with the drug? The scene where she goes unconscious? The animation was FREAKING FANTASTIC. I mean, the animation for the two years was amazing, but just the way Elisa was animated there, her hair looked real, with all the those strands separating and flying in her face, instead of all of of her hair, or chunks of it, that would normally happen. And the detail on her face. Amazing.

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

How old was Alex in Hunter's Moon? I assumed Alex was supposed be three or four months even though he appeared older. That's only because I thought Hunter's Moon occurred at the end of September or early October going on when the Canmore's father died in Paris in 1980. During "The Gathering" Brooklyn mention a heatwave the city was going through. I assumed that was June. Don't know if it was fact or not but I've read in forums that Goliath and Elisa were gone for six months in real time. I assumed they left New York in January. Yes, I've thought about this way too much. :P

Alex had to be a newborn. Remember, "The Gathering" happened right before it, and Fox had just given birth during that two parter. No, wait. Wasn't the episode with the soul exchange happen after "The Gathering?" So, yeah, Alex would have been four or five months, I think, because he just looked bigger while Puck was training him.  But then by the end of the episode, he was drawn as if he were an infant again. But since the comics takes place/starts up a few days after "Hunter Moon" NO WAY is he closer to three or four years old!

1 hour ago, Arcadiasw said:

The art was very subpar but good stories would've made up for it. I think the comics would've lasted longer if Greg Weisman focused on the storylines and the cliffhangers that developed at the end of Season Two: Goliath and Elisa dating and their family reactions, the gargoyles adjusting to life back at the castle with Xanatos, the rise of the Quarryman,John Canmore change into John Castaway, Jason and Robyn, Demona's reaction to Goliath and Elisa and her relationship with Angela. the city reaction to gargoyles, Broadway and Angela's budding romance instead of the rushed they're in love even though we didn't see any attraction between them except when Coldstone and Coldfire possessed them. After addressing those issues, readership would've been good enough for Greg to bring in the Illumanati, Stone of Destiny, Thailog, Shari and Brooklyn's family. 

Like I've said before, nothing will make me believe that Castaway was John. You would think John thought he'd killed Jason, when Jason was still alive and well. Which is something he'd know and I'm sure his sister would have told him. So, that's all on Weisman, since he freakin' WROTE Journey, not only in the comics but the cartoon!

It's clear I'm thinking too much about this show, heh. But I just love Goliath and Elisa so, so much, and hate how they were short-changed in the comics.

[Arcadiasw]

20 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That has got to be the lamest, stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Oh, Perish the thought! Do you think he even thought about having her date a man who was going to kill her family, and was responsible for destroying their second home and would have killed her, if he hadn't gone in, drugged her and kidnapped her? Speaking of which, that scene where she pulls of the Hunter's mask and sees it's Jason, and he shoots her with the drug? The scene where she goes unconscious? The animation was FREAKING FANTASTIC. I mean, the animation for the two years was amazing, but just the way Elisa was animated there, her hair looked real, with all the those strands separating and flying in her face, instead of all of of her hair, or chunks of it, that would normally happen. And the detail on her face. Amazing.

Like I've said before, nothing will make me believe that Castaway was John. You would think John thought he'd killed Jason, when Jason was still alive and well. Which is something he'd know and I'm sure his sister would have told him. So, that's all on Weisman, since he freakin' WROTE Journey, not only in the comics but the cartoon!

It's clear I'm thinking too much about this show, heh. But I just love Goliath and Elisa so, so much, and hate how they were short-changed in the comics.

With Greg Weisman wanting a silly triangle because a voice actor voiced two of the characters in said triangle, I wouldn't be shocked if he had thought about paring Elisa with Jason. If he had went that route, it would've been bad judgment on Greg Weisman but most importantly it reflects badly on Elisa. I get she's lonely and may have second thoughts dating a gargoyle but to even consider dating a guy who did all the things Jason did, it goes against common sense and her cop ethic. Geez! There are millions of guys in Manhattan she can't do better than someone Jason? Elisa wasn't in love with Jason. A little lust maybe but that's it. 

That scene and the final scene where Goliath brushed Elisa's hair from her face is beautifully animated. The Price had great animation, especially in the beginning where it opened with Manhattan at night leading to the gargoyles fight against MacBeth. Gargoyles is still one of the best animated series I've seen.

Speaking of the Quarryman, how come no one suspected John Castaway as John Canmore? Wouldn't that be obvious? He's the only one of the Hunters still out there. With Xanatos on the Gargoyles side, he can use his resources and investigate John Castaway. It would be a matter of time before he finds him out.

[GHScorpiosRule]

On September 23, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Arcadiasw said:

With Greg Weisman wanting a silly triangle because a voice actor voiced two of the characters in said triangle, I wouldn't be shocked if he had thought about paring Elisa with Jason. If he had went that route, it would've been bad judgment on Greg Weisman but most importantly it reflects badly on Elisa. I get she's lonely and may have second thoughts dating a gargoyle but to even consider dating a guy who did all the things Jason did, it goes against common sense and her cop ethic. Geez! There are millions of guys in Manhattan she can't do better than someone Jason? Elisa wasn't in love with Jason. A little lust maybe but that's it. 

That scene and the final scene where Goliath brushed Elisa's hair from her face is beautifully animated. The Price had great animation, especially in the beginning where it opened with Manhattan at night leading to the gargoyles fight against MacBeth. Gargoyles is still one of the best animated series I've seen.

Speaking of the Quarryman, how come no one suspected John Castaway as John Canmore? Wouldn't that be obvious? He's the only one of the Hunters still out there. With Xanatos on the Gargoyles side, he can use his resources and investigate John Castaway. It would be a matter of time before he finds him out.

1. I would have hated Weisman for LIFE and continued to bash him at every turn if he'd done that. Considering that in the series finale, Elisa TOLD Jason that someone would "ALWAYS COME FIRST." And we knew she was talking about Goliath.

2. YES! and YES!

3. Because he looked NOTHING like John Canmore? Looked 10 years older, different face, and even in this universe, unless he was Puck, it was only a few days after Hunter's Moon, and no way would plastic surgery be able to be done. Plus, he was at least four inches TALLER than John.

Edited September 27, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[Arcadiasw]

A couple random thoughts.

I saw "The Gathering" Part One. I chuckled at Travis Marshall comment about Alexander being an eligible bachelor because it is twenty years later. How time flies.  One can imagine the things he would be getting into with his parents and Puck.

In "Hunter's Moon", I think there was another casualty that was not mentioned. The gargoyles lost their clocktower home but I think Elisa lost her car. She parked in front of the police station before Robyn fired on it. The debris from the explosion must've hit her car. That's another reason for Elisa to be pissed at Jason. Elisa's car was featured in the third season but I don't count that season. :p

[Arcadiasw]

If the series had continued in syndication, I don’t think Greg Weisman would’ve gotten away with a Jason/Elisa/Goliath triangle take two. Gargoyles is Greg Weisman baby but Frank Paur had a hand in the series, too, and had differences with Greg over things in the series like the World Tour. I think Frank would’ve argued against another triangle.

[gallimaufry]

There's precedent in legend for magical children ageing at an unnatural rate -- Merlin, for example.

I think Goliath and Elisa made a lot of progress in the comics -- it took them 65 episodes just to kiss.  It's not a surprise Elisa would have second thoughts.  She makes a mistake out of fear, realises she's made a mistake and sorts it out quickly.  It's a shame we didn't get more than the 12 issues so we could see more sides to their relationship but remember that the whole of #3-5 is the equivalent of one episode and a subplot within an episode at that.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I spent this weekend streaming....you guessed it, THIS SHOW! With mentions of all the shows and movies that Disney + had in its vault, there was no mention of Gargoyles. I thought, it should be--because it was a Disney show, and it is!

And I noticed one continuity gaffe, which I wish had stayed true. When Demona was maniacally laughing and killing all the humans had been turned to Stone in "City of Stone", one couple she killed was that every annoying, pain in the ass, snooty Margo with that head band across her forehead and her husband Brendan. Did they stay dead? No, no they did not. She showed up a few episodes later.

And then they turned her into the bigoted Assistant District Attorney in the horrid season three.

And since it seems only a few weeks went by between "Hunter's Moon, Part III", and "Journey", no FUCKING way is that zealot/bigot/racist John Castaway, John Carter from the original series. For one thing, Castaway looked 10 years older than Jason. Also, like I'm supposed to buy that he suddenly has an English accent? PUHLEAZE. And just where were the cops while these terrorists were out killing and also attacking Elisa--A COP?

Also, I can't remember if I mentioned this in the previous pages when we were discussing the show--but I've always thought this and watching in a nonstop marathon hasn't changed my mind: Derek is an ASSHOLE.

First, as a cop, he was aware that Xanatos was sent to prison for a crime--even if it was for only receiving stolen property (and six months due to his moolah). But the minute he's out of prison, he's all 'Xanatos isn't a bad guy, blah, blah, blah...I don't wanna be a cop, blah, blah, blah...' and how he immediately jumps on Goliath and Sevarius for being responsible, but not Xanatos.  Oh no. Xanotos was his friend. He was only trying to find a cure and help him. Even after finding the doctor alive, he's still after Goliath. Actually believes that Xanatos was wrong/deceived into thinking Sevarius dead. And then there's Maggie. I don't blame her for not wanting to be what she considered herself, a monster. But she sure was quick to latch onto/be with Derek instead of Brooklyn, who only wanted to help her. He's a monster, but Derek isn't? Alrighty then.

I need to go back and re-re-rewatch the episode after "Sentinel" which I think was "Bushido" to see if it was shown that Elisa got her memories back. The Sentinel dude told her his memory zapping only erased false memories. If that's the case, then Elisa shouldn't have lost her memories of Goliath and the Gargoyles to begin with!

It makes me sad and I always cry in "Cloud Fathers" at the end, to know that Peter never made up with his dad when he left the reservation. The emotion in Peter's voice and the tears just make me CRY. I'd like to think the children got to know their grandpa.

Paging @Spartan Girl!

Edited November 26, 2019 by GHScorpiosRule

[Spartan Girl]

Okay I finally got around to watching this show on YouTube (don't have Disney+ yet) and holy crap. This was a DISNEY show?! It felt like the 90s Marvel X-Men/Spider-Man cartoons...and that's a compliment. @GHScorpiosRule you were right, it was very Shakespearean

I instantly recognized Broadway as the voice of Patrick Star and it made me laugh. Wow, that guy has been in cartoons longer than I thought. 

My own gripe is that I don't care much for the hero's ex being EVUHL trope, but the writers did a better job with Demona than Doofus and Dickweed did on Game of Thrones. And yeah, Demona, humans suck (especially now) but everything you did kind of makes the world worse. Just saying...

And hey, Demona being the bad guy made way for Goliath and Elisa. Totally love their relationship.

My favorite moment with them so far is when Proteus turned into a copy of Elisa to throw off the gang, and Goliath to figure out who is the fake, Goliath asks Elisa if she ever doubted him, even for a moment.

"Elisa": Never! Not for one second!

Goliath, without missing a beat: THAT'S Proteus! Get him! W

WOW. I know it hurts when the people we love doubt us or lose faith for one reason or another, but to acknowledge and understand that it happens without all the drama! Bravo, writers! Now THAT is subverting tropes!

Edited November 26, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Okay I finally got around to watching this show on YouTube (don't have Disney+ yet) and holy crap. This was a DISNEY show?! It felt like the 90s Marvel X-Men/Spider-Man cartoons...and that's a compliment. @GHScorpiosRule you were right, it was very Shakespearean

I KNOW! And when you see the heavy stuff they did--the killing/murders/deaths...and this aired during the day for CHILDREN! Bill Faggerbakke, who played Broadway, was also that jock on Coach.

I LOOOOOOOVE the slow, build-up Beauty and Beast-of Goliath and Elisa's relationship.

Now, don't you agree that Derek is an ASSHOLE??

[Spartan Girl]

18 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Now, don't you agree that Derek is an ASSHOLE??

Yes.  Yes, I do.

[The Crazed Spruce]

Just started my own rewatch. Spent the morning watching the five-part premiere. It's amazing how well this show holds up. I mean, you could take the script from these five episodes, tweak maybe 5% of it, and it's feature film worthy. Maybe even a summer tentpole. And the animation is on par with pretty much any 2D animation on the go today.

I'm definitely looking forward to the rest of the series. Too bad they only made two seasons....

[readster]

I recently was reliving my teenage viewing the series. I was finishing high school when the series was on. My friends and I talked about it on a regular basis. We loved the series, especially when we were talk about the Shakespear pieces they did with the World Tour.