S08.E09: Oklahoma City Finals

[Fukui San]

The thing about the height bias that people seem to see is that it doesn't take into account what sort of people actually win Ninja Warrior. I can't find the stats on Geoff and Isaac, but they aren't giants. This picture of them with the hosts show the two male hosts towering over them, and Kristine being near their height. I'd guess they are around 5'6" to 5'8"?

Further, here are the stats on the four Japanese men who have finished the entire course:

Akiyama 5’3”, 123 lbs

Nagano 5’4”, 141 lbs

Urushihara 5’4”, 116 lbs

Morimoto 5’3”, 130 lbs

These dudes are shrimps! And their stats are so eerily similar. They are all basically the size of famed short basketball player Muggsy Bogues. They are shorter than Jessie Graff, Meghan Martin, and probably Michelle Warnky. Three of them have had to deal with the Jumping Spider and Warped Wall successfully in their careers.

The reason shorter people win in this contest is because in the Vegas Finals (which is what the Japanese version consists of entirely), the Third Stage is made of all those arm torture obstacles that require that they support their entire weight with their fingers, and which favor the little guys since they have less weight to support. I can't do a comprehensive count, but off the top of my head I can only think of maybe three or four guys over 5'8" making the final stage out of 30 or so finalists in the Japanese version.

That's why, in my opinion, the winner of Ninja Warrior has a better chance of looking like a jockey rather than a tight end or power forward. I don't think that height disqualifies any of the female competitors, not even 4'11" Kacy, from consideration. Despite an obstacle here or there, in the final round the game favors short people. That's not to say that maybe a Brett Stefferson couldn't be the first true big guy to beat the course, but so far it hasn't happened yet.

[simplyme]

Well, yeah. There is an optimal height range for the American ANW. Being shorter OR taller than that range hurts your chances.

My understanding is that the Japanese version makes adjustments on some obstacles based on the ninja's height while the American version does not, so comparing across versions doesn't work.

I (and others) have also commented that body type and musculature is important. Football-types with bulky muscles tend to tire out from hauling all that weight. Ninja builds tend to have lean muscle.

I'd guess that the optimal build to win the American version is between 5'5" and 5'10" and between 130 and 180 lbs.  (Very rough guess...) Not jockeys, but no one too large either.

[Guest]

I don't think there's such a thing as 'lean muscle'.  Muscle is not fat, it is all lean by definition.  'Bulky muscle' people have more muscle tissue but it's just not always as functional as some competitors with less muscle tissue but more strength.  Bulk does not equal strength, always.  We're probably saying the same thing just with different words, though.  

[simplyme]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think there's such a thing as 'lean muscle'.  Muscle is not fat, it is all lean by definition.  'Bulky muscle' people have more muscle tissue but it's just not always as functional as some competitors with less muscle tissue but more strength.  Bulk does not equal strength, always.  We're probably saying the same thing just with different words, though.  

Whoops. Yeah. I could have phrased that better. My bad.

@Winston9-DT3 clarified pretty well, but for anyone still confused, try the following link:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/546202-differences-between-bulky-muscles-and-toned-muscles/

[slf]

On 8/14/2016 at 10:49 PM, simplyme said:

I'd guess that the optimal build to win the American version is between 5'5" and 5'10" and between 130 and 180 lbs.  (Very rough guess...) Not jockeys, but no one too large either.

I read that on average male contestants who are 5'8 to 5'10 tend to do the best on ANW.

[Rapunzel]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 4:18 PM, simplyme said:

Kacy is a gymnast and is built like one. Nothing wrong with that, imo. She wears clothes that are comfortable for her to run the course in, which should be the priority. At 5'0", managing to finish an ANW city course once is mind-boggling to me. (Dustin McKinney is 5'2", and I find him just as amazing.)

I don't really care about ninja romances. I'm the type of viewer that could do with fewer personal stories and more full runs being shown. Olympics coverage tends to make me scream. Show the competition!

Did you watch the Olympics this year? Those girls had way more muscles and far more athletic builds than Kacey can ever hope to have. Kacey has no where near the muscle definition that those gymnasts have. She looks like her clothes are going to fall off of her at any point in time, I would put money on Simone Biles to beat Kacey in any challenge, and Simone is even shorter than Kacey - she's not even 5 feet tall, but is far better built and has way more muscle than Kacey does.

Also, as for the course not favoring Kacey or other short people, that is completely inaccurate. The course actually favors those who are a bit lighter, given the tremendous amount of upper body obstacles. I'm also sick of people saying that the spider jump only favors the taller competitors - If you pay attention, you will hear and see that the obstacle narrows a bit in. If you get a good jump off the tramp, which Kacey should know how to use given her gymnastics background, you are in a narrow part of the obstacle. Let's also not forget that Kacey is shown to be able to complete this obstacle in training and in competition, so it has nothing to do with her height.

In addition, in Japan, the country where this started, most of the men that actually won are just about 5 feet tall (like Kacey). Most of the competitors over there are not tall at all and yet they still do better on a more difficult course than those who are "tall" seem to do here on ANW. Height has absolutely nothing to do with it and can actually be disadvantage, particularly as the courses are very much upper body strength oriented and being lighter/shorter actually helps.

[Rapunzel]

On ‎8‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 8:49 PM, simplyme said:

Well, yeah. There is an optimal height range for the American ANW. Being shorter OR taller than that range hurts your chances.

My understanding is that the Japanese version makes adjustments on some obstacles based on the ninja's height while the American version does not, so comparing across versions doesn't work.

I (and others) have also commented that body type and musculature is important. Football-types with bulky muscles tend to tire out from hauling all that weight. Ninja builds tend to have lean muscle.

I'd guess that the optimal build to win the American version is between 5'5" and 5'10" and between 130 and 180 lbs.  (Very rough guess...) Not jockeys, but no one too large either.

I lived in Japan for several years and have seen the competition live. They do not adjust obstacles - everyone competes on the same course. This is partially why it is so difficult and that, in its 32 seasons in Japan, all four stages were only completed a total of five times (by four different competitors). The courses in Japan seemed to me to be much more difficult. I don't understand why some of the contestants on the American version don't watch the YouTube videos that are out there showing them how to complete certain obstacles that most on ANW fail on. Many Japanese competitors have figured out the trick to some of the more difficult obstacles. I think the only reason more haven't finished in Japan is because the course is harder. ANW steals most of the obstacles from the Japanese original and, in some cases, even dumbs them down.

[Chaos Theory]

I am not going to get into whether the Japanese or the American course is harder.  The Japanese course (especially during the early years) looked deceptively simple because it was so low tech and looked like it was built in some his garage while the American course looks or bright and shiny and which makes it look well.,,.deceptively simple.  And yes the American course pretty much stole many of the more popular obsticals straight from the Japanese.  That's not exactly a secret.   

[SophiaD]

I love Simone Biles, but I'm not sure even she could make it through the Jumping Spider.  Her legs are just too short.  

[simplyme]

23 hours ago, Rapunzel said:

I lived in Japan for several years and have seen the competition live. They do not adjust obstacles - everyone competes on the same course. 

I got the idea that Sasuke sometimes adjusted certain obstacles from other posters here, and there are multiple comments elsewhere that say the same thing. Obviously, I cannot say whether you are right or they are. 

One example taken from http://sasukemaniac.proboards.com/thread/5065/make-female-ninja-warrior-japan:

"There are some people who believe that making the obstacles adjustable to accommodate women/shorter people/older competitors is somehow unfair and ruins the spirit of the competition, completely unaware Sasuke has always done that (for women and competitors over a certain age, anyway) since including particular obstacles.  Although all ANW has done has been pushing the trampolines closer to the edge."

On 9/11/2016 at 11:36 AM, Rapunzel said:

Did you watch the Olympics this year? Those girls had way more muscles and far more athletic builds than Kacey can ever hope to have. Kacey has no where near the muscle definition that those gymnasts have. She looks like her clothes are going to fall off of her at any point in time, I would put money on Simone Biles to beat Kacey in any challenge, and Simone is even shorter than Kacey - she's not even 5 feet tall, but is far better built and has way more muscle than Kacey does.

Also, as for the course not favoring Kacey or other short people, that is completely inaccurate. The course actually favors those who are a bit lighter, given the tremendous amount of upper body obstacles. I'm also sick of people saying that the spider jump only favors the taller competitors - If you pay attention, you will hear and see that the obstacle narrows a bit in. If you get a good jump off the tramp, which Kacey should know how to use given her gymnastics background, you are in a narrow part of the obstacle. Let's also not forget that Kacey is shown to be able to complete this obstacle in training and in competition, so it has nothing to do with her height.

I think @Winston9-DT3 answered the Simone Biles comparison pretty well.  I mean, some gymnasts are built like Biles, others more like Amy Chow, and some like Mexico's Alexa Moreno.

I have pointed out that certain obstacles are more difficult for people below (or above) certain heights, not the course as a whole. I also commented on people who weigh less having to haul less weight through the upper-body obstacles.

Since you pointed out the jumping spider: It is not just about successfully sticking the landing, but also navigating the rest of the obstacle. People below a certain height not only have to have perfect technique to stick the landing, but they also have very little leverage and ability to move quickly through the obstacle and time matters in Stage 1. Also, a person being ABLE to do it in practice does not mean that the difficulty for them is at the same level for someone else doing the same obstacle. A person who is 6'0" has a margin for error on the jumping spider. A person who is 5'0" has essentially none. To me this is not the same as saying "The jumping spider only favors tall contestants." It's noting that people with different wing/legspans have different margins of error, but there may not be a huge difference in those margins between someone who is, say, 5'5" and someone who is 6'0". 

All that said, I'm not in favor of adjusting obstacles in ANW. I just enjoy analyzing them. It's never going to be possible to equalize the difficulty of all obstacles for all body types, and part of the joy is seeing people do amazing things. But let's not pretend, no matter who we like or dislike, that every obstacle requires the same skill level and physical effort from every contestant. :)

[ClareWalks]

The jumping spider has a 4' gap. There are few adults who could not make that, leg span-wise. Simone Biles could easily do that.