S02.E04: Revolution 1

[AmandaPanda]

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Hodiak investigates a murder in a black neighborhood on the day of Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination; Kristin's involvement with the Black Panthers divides her and Brian; Charmain learns the true cost of undercover work.

[Primetimer]

But looks great doing it in our Fashion Show At Lunch.

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[helenamonster]

I thought this episode set up some good stakes, especially with Charmain blowing her undercover status to save Roy only for him to probably attempt to kill her in the near future.

I also thought the episode set up some interesting questions regarding Shafe's presence at the Tate house the night after the murders. Luckily they answered the "why is he doing heroin" in this episode, but it's still not clear why he's there. He seems way more emotional about the situation than he would be if he was just part of the investigation. Maybe he eventually develops some kind of relationship with one of the victims prior to the murders? It's doubtful that he, or anyone else, suspects it to be Manson at this point in time. Unless his angst is over the fact that he felt he could have prevented the murders? But then if he thought it was Manson wouldn't he have tried to arrest him or the others before they got to the LaBiancas? And they weren't apprehended until months later anyway...idk, there are a lot of questions. But the fact that he's still using heroin over a year letter makes me things that his marriage never gets back on the right track.

I like Duchovny, and I like Hodiak in all his sarcasm and over-it-ness, but he needs to shut the fuck up about Walt. Why does he expect anyone to care about his son who, as Charmain rightfully pointed out, did what he did knowing full well what the consequences would be? I get wanting to protect your child but to expect other people to care as much as you do about him is strange.

The actor who plays Dennis Wilson was great with his reaction shots as Manson got all excited at the possibility of a race war.

Interesting how Emma has kind of moved into the role of Charlie Whisperer. I'm actually kind of interested to see the part she plays in the murders.

[reggiejax]

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Interesting how Emma has kind of moved into the role of Charlie Whisperer. I'm actually kind of interested to see the part she plays in the murders.

I don't like that part. I understand they have to give Emma something to do, since it looks like the connection to Hodiak and her parents is severed, and useless in terms of storyline. But the idea that any member of the Family could manipulate Manson in any form (even a benign or helpful one, such as we see Emma doing with regards to Wilson) is ludicrous. This show is really not doing a good job of showing the total and absolute control Manson had over the lives of his followers. It really isn't. Gethin Anthony is doing a decent job as Manson (though certainly not on par with Steve Railsback or Jeremy Davies), but right now, I don't believe Emma, Sadie, and the rest would cross the street for this guy, let alone commit the Tate/Labianca murders. I don't care how bug-eyed the actors playing the Family get.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, helenamonster said:

I also thought the episode set up some interesting questions regarding Shafe's presence at the Tate house the night after the murders. Luckily they answered the "why is he doing heroin" in this episode, but it's still not clear why he's there. He seems way more emotional about the situation than he would be if he was just part of the investigation. Maybe he eventually develops some kind of relationship with one of the victims prior to the murders?

I thought likely Schafe winds up getting his heroin from Manson, and yes:

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I thought this episode set up some good stakes, especially with Charmain blowing her undercover status to save Roy only for him to probably attempt to kill her in the near future.

 

 

1 hour ago, reggiejax said:

I don't like that part. I understand they have to give Emma something to do, since it looks like the connection to Hodiak and her parents is severed, and useless in terms of storyline. But the idea that any member of the Family could manipulate Manson in any form (even a benign or helpful one, such as we see Emma doing with regards to Wilson) is ludicrous....

Maybe they will show Emma's progression towards complete submission to Manson? I see her as the audience's window into the Family since she often looks troubled by his ravings, and even walked out on the acid party last season.

[Fable]

2 hours ago, reggiejax said:

don't like that part. I understand they have to give Emma something to do, since it looks like the connection to Hodiak and her parents is severed, and useless in terms of storyline. But the idea that any member of the Family could manipulate Manson in any form (even a benign or helpful one, such as we see Emma doing with regards to Wilson) is ludicrous. This show is really not doing a good job of showing the total and absolute control Manson had over the lives of his followers. It really isn't. Gethin Anthony is doing a decent job as Manson (though certainly not on par with Steve Railsback or Jeremy Davies), but right now, I don't believe Emma, Sadie, and the rest would cross the street for this guy, let alone commit the Tate/Labianca murders. I don't care how bug-eyed the actors playing the Family get.

I agree that this show’s depiction of Manson is not entirely believable.  He seems too unhinged and out of control, and while I agree unhinged may be an accurate description, out of control does not.  Charlie was very much in control and knew it, and this series sometimes seems to make it seem like he was carried about like a feather in the wind. 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Fable said:

...Charlie was very much in control and knew it, and this series sometimes seems to make it seem like he was carried about like a feather in the wind. 

Thanks, Fable. I've read a lot of criticism of the Aquarius portrayal of Manson in comparison to earlier versions (which I haven't seen), but never quite understood the difference until reading your post. 

[thuganomics85]

Damn, Shafe!  This wasn't your episode.  First, you majorly step in it with the way you treated your wife and not seeing how you were disrespecting her and not seeing that Martin Luther King Jr.'s death really hurt her.  And then you have to start doing heroin in order to maintain your cover!  And it looks like he's still hooked on it 16 months from now!  I'm actually curious to see where all this leads.  Shafe's gotten real interesting now.

Great seeing both Bunky and the Commissioner again.  Any show can be improved with the presence of both Gaius Charles and Xander Berkley.  And I cracked up over how the Commish just unceremoniously booted Cutler out of this office to talk to Hodiak and Shafe.  Oh, Cutler.  You might be the boss, but clearly those two are the ones who get things done in the department.

Even though I feel for Hodiak and his concern for his son, I was glad Chairman didn't go with his "Let Roy die!" plan, because that is a line that I don't think Chairman would cross.  Maybe one day, but not now, and I wouldn't have bought it if she did.  Of course, Roy now knows the truth and I doubt will be all that helpful, so I suspect she's in for a bumpy ride going forward.

I know Gethin Anthony has been a bit hit or miss on this show, but I thought this was probably one of the better ones for him.  He's slowly starting to scare me now, which is an improvement, since I tend to find him more show and bluster, then an actual threat.

[helenamonster]

I definitely agree that the portrayal of Manson should be one of a person who is totally in control of his lunacy, and not someone just wandering about and ranting about race wars, and I think Anthony is doing a pretty good job with what he's been given. One of the biggest misconceptions about Manson is that he's totally off his rocker, when it's glaringly obvious that he knows how the world sees him and is simply playing into society's larger beliefs.

The problem on this show, imo, is more with the followers. Manson obviously had a certain level of charisma, but it takes a certain kind of person to be taken in by that charisma to the point where they're willing to kill for him. There were plenty of people who saw him as the shaggy little twerp he is even before the murders, but Vincent Bugliosi argued pretty well that Atkins, Krenwinkel, Van Houten, and Watson had such antisocial personalities that they probably would have committed murder eventually even if they hadn't met Manson. Right now we see some kind of bizarre alliance forming between Atkins and Watson in defiance of Manson, which is the strange part. Obviously they're pulled all the way in eventually, but that's where things are wonky for me.

[Emily Thrace]

On 2016-06-24 at 0:08 PM, helenamonster said:

I thought this episode set up some good stakes, especially with Charmain blowing her undercover status to save Roy only for him to probably attempt to kill her in the near future.

I also thought the episode set up some interesting questions regarding Shafe's presence at the Tate house the night after the murders. Luckily they answered the "why is he doing heroin" in this episode, but it's still not clear why he's there. He seems way more emotional about the situation than he would be if he was just part of the investigation. Maybe he eventually develops some kind of relationship with one of the victims prior to the murders? It's doubtful that he, or anyone else, suspects it to be Manson at this point in time. Unless his angst is over the fact that he felt he could have prevented the murders? But then if he thought it was Manson wouldn't he have tried to arrest him or the others before they got to the LaBiancas? And they weren't apprehended until months later anyway...idk, there are a lot of questions. But the fact that he's still using heroin over a year letter makes me things that his marriage never gets back on the right track.

I like Duchovny, and I like Hodiak in all his sarcasm and over-it-ness, but he needs to shut the fuck up about Walt. Why does he expect anyone to care about his son who, as Charmain rightfully pointed out, did what he did knowing full well what the consequences would be? I get wanting to protect your child but to expect other people to care as much as you do about him is strange.

The actor who plays Dennis Wilson was great with his reaction shots as Manson got all excited at the possibility of a race war.

Interesting how Emma has kind of moved into the role of Charlie Whisperer. I'm actually kind of interested to see the part she plays in the murders.

I think Hodiak thinks of his two proteges as family though too. Or at least that they would at least have his back on something like this out of loyalty if not understanding. He's stuck his neck for both of them more then once and Charmain in particular I get why he thinks they might do the same for him. I think Hodiak just underestimated how idealistic Charmain still is. Its interesting but there's a bit of a parallel between how Hodiak is cultivating these two cops and the way Manson is handling his followers.  Of course the difference is Hodiak actually cares about Charmian and Chafe so he still has her back even when she's disagreeing with him.

Chafe still had a wedding band on when he was calling Hodiak in the flashforward. so he can't be truly divorced yet. Given his wife involvement with the Panthers I wonder if she isn't killed sometime in the next year and a half. Bunchy was shot at more than once before he was finally killed. The infighting between the Panthers and the other group got real ugly.  Hell some random could just decide shes a traitor and take her out like those cops who had white partners last year. Or Charlie or the bikers could decide to take her out to get back a Chafe. Something terrible happens there in the next few months though. I think divorce would be a bit to close to Hodiak's story I think they might go a different route for Chafe. Plus Chafe looked guilty as hell in that flashforward for something.

[shapeshifter]

Love this analysis:

5 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

I think Hodiak thinks of his two proteges as family though too. Or at least that they would at least have his back on something like this out of loyalty if not understanding. He's stuck his neck for both of them more then once and Charmain in particular I get why he thinks they might do the same for him. I think Hodiak just underestimated how idealistic Charmain still is. Its interesting but there's a bit of a parallel between how Hodiak is cultivating these two cops and the way Manson is handling his followers.  Of course the difference is Hodiak actually cares about Charmian and Chafe so he still has her back even when she's disagreeing with him....

Love this ^ analysis. As for this:

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...Plus Chafe looked guilty as hell in that flashforward for something.

I'm hoping he didn't actually participate in the murders, but woke up from his heroin binge to see the mayhem, and maybe even wonders if he did particpate.

[txhorns79]

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The problem on this show, imo, is more with the followers. Manson obviously had a certain level of charisma, but it takes a certain kind of person to be taken in by that charisma to the point where they're willing to kill for him. There were plenty of people who saw him as the shaggy little twerp he is even before the murders, but Vincent Bugliosi argued pretty well that Atkins, Krenwinkel, Van Houten, and Watson had such antisocial personalities that they probably would have committed murder eventually even if they hadn't met Manson

I felt it takes someone who is so lost (whether from being alienated at home or from their peer group) that they will cling to anyone that shows interest in them, and do whatever that person wants in order to maintain the relationship.

I thought Charmian was kind of ridiculous.  If anything, she's shown why she should never have been allowed to continue with her undercover operation.  She made it all way too personal, and likely endangered herself and her fellow officers.   

[reggiejax]

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...Plus Chafe looked guilty as hell in that flashforward for something.

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I'm hoping he didn't actually participate in the murders, but woke up from his heroin binge to see the mayhem, and maybe even wonders if he did participate.

He did look guilty as hell, but I think it is extremely unlikely they are going to have him participate in the murders. They are stretching things by having Emma involved, even if it is only her visiting the scene of the crime with Charlie.

I think his guilt may have something to do with that little medal he found, the one Emma left on Sharon Tate.

Also, Shafe looks a little too clean cut in August 1969. Meaning he is no longer undercover, which is just as well as his cover is blown with Roy, which means it is blown with everyone else connected to Roy, Manson included.

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Right now we see some kind of bizarre alliance forming between Atkins and Watson in defiance of Manson, which is the strange part.

That is the type of little detail that not only bugs because it is wrong, but because it weakens the story. Manson would have put the kibosh on the Sadie/Tex ship, right quick. Part of his control was not allowing any pairing off among his followers. He demanded complete submission in all aspects of his followers lives, and that absolutely included sexual relationships. A little alliance like that was the most dangerous thing to his leadership, especially when it involved his most volatile follower, Susan Atkins.

Edited June 28, 2016 by reggiejax