S06.E09: Battle of the Bastards

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis:

As the Starks prepare to fight, Davos loses something dear. Ramsay plays a game. Daenerys faces a choice.

[DirewolfPup]

Well, two battles in one episode. Both ended with good being the victor. Didn't stop me from crying when Ramsey had his archers shooting into the battle lines, killing everyone including his own men. The piles of bodies... That's an image that will haunt me for a long time to come.

[Pallas]

Ladies' Night, at the Battle of the Bastards. Dany, Sansa and Yara carry the day. Dany heeds Tyrion's advice -- unlike her father with Jaime -- leading to a fun meet-and-greet between two Queens (one with dragon,s one with Theon), and a very satisfying centurions' grasp of forearms.

Both battles were beautifully conjured or enacted, and directed. While I was certain Jon would live...I wasn't so positive every second, and even less sure that the Stark forces (2,000 Free People, 62 Mormonts and 2 Starks) would prevail. I said, "Come on, Littlefinger, you bastard," throughout the melee at Winterfell, like an inveterate bettor urging home a longshot.

Did Jon take Ramsay's bait and lead his men into slaughter, when by waiting, he would have been joined by Littlefinger's army from the start? Yes. Could Sansa have prevented the slaughter by telling Jon that Littlefinger's army was on its way? Yes. But Sansa felt she could not risk Jon's refusing Littlefinger's aid, and in the end, since Sansa was right that Ramsay had no intention of walking into a pincer movement, Jon would have needed to draw out Ramsay's forces before Littlefinger's army could encircle them. 

Sansa's conversation with Jon was a model of two principled people of good will, from the same family, with the identical goal, whose different traumas left them unable to find common ground. Dany and Yara, on the other hand, were strangers who had everything to gain by candor, and did.

It is entirely impossible that Jon, Tormund, and Davos all survived the first 90% of the battle. Good for them. Davos realizing what Stannis and Melisandre did to the Princess Shireen of House Baratheon was beauitfully done. He had no god before; now he's lost his king. Good riddance.  

Also good riddance? Lord Umber, chewed to death by Tormund, one of the Wildlngs he used as his excuse to ally with Ramsay, and Lord Bolton: last of his name. 

No one but Benjen and Meera know that Bran is alive. Between "a bastard and a girl," who now is head of House Stark?

[gingerella]

So, uh, that happened...I can't really articulate how I feel. I mean, I am so relived and happy that Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, etc. survived (Tormund did survive, right? I mean, I had to mute and cover during a lot of that battle scene but I think Isaw him in the courtyard of Winterfell at the end, yes?!).  I am sad that Rickon was *this* close to being rescued by Jon, but then again, poor Rickon never had much of a storyline, did he? If we had to lose one of the remaining Stark children, I guess I can live with that, as weird as that is to say. 

Just as I suspected, Davos now gets what really happened with Shireen, I thought he might stumble upon the burning site, but I did not think he would find Shireen's stag he carved for her. As soon as that opening recap appeared of him gifting her that stag, I knew what was going to happen, and I give Davos credit for not losing his shit before the big battle. He really is made of the right stuff, isn't he?  But the way he looked at Mel in Winterfell? shit is going down next week for sure with that. I don't know what he is going to do, but finally we will see that heinous decision play out its final act. And even though the battle was won, Davos will still know that Mel needs to be around just in case someone needs "bringing back" so I don't think he will kill her himself.

Again, it feels weird to say this but...I enjoyed Sansa feeding Ramsey to his own dogs. Dare I say, it was a very satisfying karmic retribution moment? I loved her satisfied smile as she walked away from that scene. and speaking of Sansa, I feel like she is finally A Stark, in the fullest sense. I hope they don't put her back in the chatle box now, by either having her pregnant with Ramsey's evil seed (which I would hope she would abort or kill off because it really is evil seed...and again, I can't believe I am saying that but this IS A Show...), or having LF expect her to marry that moron Robyn, or himself. I want Sansa and Jon to pull the North together now in preparation for Winter, because bloody hell, it is finally coming, and it's not going to be a Curier and Ives postcard sort of Winter.

I assumed and hoped that Dany's dragoons would burn that Masters fleet, but It was a bit too convenient that Theon and Yara and their fleet arrived just the next day, right?!  Come on Show, you can do better than that. so now we have Dany agreeing to support Yara as the first Queen of the Iron Islands, and I can now envision Sansa as Wardressand (is that the term?) of the North, with Dany as Queen of Westeros...I wonder if the end game of A Show is to create a new world order, governed by Women, rather than Men, who have ruled these lands since time began, and have made a cock up of it (pun intended, it was too easy not to).  I'll bring this over to the Soec thread but wanted to get it out here before I forget it in the morning. 

Lastly, Pallas, my equestrian brethren, that first image , from the side view, of the Bolton cavalry galloping into battle was just such a lush, dramatic and moving image, what did you think of it?  But during the battle, I kept wondering HOW they make it look like horses are being killed by arrows, etc. It has to be CGI and special effects, right? Because the ASPCA or something like that is usually on sets like this to ensure animal actors safety, yes?  Oof, that was a lot of horses...

RIP [Won Won & Rickon].

Stark children head count: 4 out of 6 still alive. Miraculously.

Edited June 20, 2016 by gingerella

[gingerella]

ETA:

So many gem moments tonight that were done without any words:

The Dany/Yara Centurion's arm grasp of honor. 

Little Lady Mormont sitting atop her steed with a look of steely resolve tinged with fear at her first battle (she survived the battle, yes?!), knowing that it was her duty to go with her 62 men to the battlefield. Could she be a future Woman leader of a new Westeros world order? The silent watch of Sansa and LF as they sat on the hilltop watching the Army of the Vale ride in and save Jon and Co. And Sansa's face as she walked away from Ramsey being eaten by his own dogs. So many moments without using words tonight. I think that is whyI feel so exhausted right now...wordless moments seem so much heavier and laden with meaning, don't they?

Edited June 20, 2016 by gingerella

[Llywela]

38 minutes ago, Pallas said:

No one but Benjen and Meera know that Bran is alive. Between "a bastard and a girl," who now is head of House Stark?

Does Jon know about Bran? I've been wondering that all season. Because Sam met Bran on his journey through the Wall, right, and Sam would have told Jon. So Jon must have known Bran was alive at that point - but may well presume him dead now, since he went out into the North and hasn't returned. We know that Sansa told Jon about Brienne bumping into Arya, so they both know Arya's out there in the wind somewhere, but I can't for the life of me remember if Jon knows about Bran going north.

Also, if Sansa is now believed to be the last surviving heir of Ned Stark, does that give her the power to  legitimise Jon, the way Roose did for Ramsey? Or does Jon, as victor of the battle of Winterfell, get to declare himself Lord Stark if he chooses, by right of conquest?

Ye gods but this episode was distressing to watch. I appreciated lots of little things, but overall it was just really distressing - even though only two named characters that I actually cared about died, I was anticipating worse at every moment, and the carnage was just horrific.

My favourite part of the episode: Dany and Yara bonding as fabulous lady warriors. And Theon being so resolute in his support of his sister's claim to the Iron Islands - of all the characters in this show, perhaps Theon has changed the most. Also, Grey Worm talking the Masters' soldiers into laying down their arms and fleeing - the Unsullied are loyal to Dany not because she owns them but because she freed them and continues to fight for their freedom to call no man their master, and that lesson coming from one of them to slave soldiers was powerful.

Also: I really love Missandei's skirt.

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Little Lady Mormont sitting atop her black steed with a look of steely resolve tinged with fear at her first battle (she survived the battle, yes?!), knowing that it was her duty to go with her 62 men to the battlefield. Could she be a future Woman leader of a new Westeros world order?

I hope little Lady Lyanna gets to be a future female leader of a new Westeros world order! She would have survived the battle, yes, in the same way that Sansa did: as a girl she'd have remained on the sidelines to watch the battle, she wouldn't have taken part.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

"Come on, Littlefinger, you bastard," throughout the melee at Winterfell, like an inveterate bettor urging home a longshot.

^^ This to the x1000! They managed to hold out long enough that i was on my feet shouting for their arrival. Not sure how Sansa managed to hook up with them, but it was very satisfying too.

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Sansa's conversation with Jon was a model of two principled people of good will, from the same family, with the identical goal, whose different traumas left them unable to find common ground. Dany and Yara, on the other hand, were strangers who had everything to gain by candor, and did.

Oh my. So True. Sansa didn't have the battle terminology and Jon didn't have the captive/captor terminology. Despite that, it panned out as it should.

54 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Just as I suspected, Davos now gets what really happened with Shireen, I thought he might stumble upon the burning site, but I did not think he would find Shireen's stag he carved for her.

If you hadn't made such a point of it I may have forgotten and missed that look he gave her at Winterfell. Something is indeed going to go down.

54 minutes ago, gingerella said:

...it feels weird to say this but...I enjoyed Sansa feeding Ramsey to his own dogs. Dare I say, it was a very satisfying karmic retribution moment? I loved her satisfied smile as she walked away from that scene.

Oh yeah. A Show has certainly given us what we were looking for. The prolonged beating by Jon Snow, but leaving him alive for Sansa to finish him off.

I can't help but notice the distinct difference this season projects compared with last season. It may just be the movement of the plot line starting this season, but I can't help but wonder if there is a pronounced difference between the writer's vision and the show runner's vision in how the presentation of this season differs from the previous seasons? This one met viewer's hopes and expectations so much more than the previous ones.  (so far) Could this be due to lack of "book" to follow? I guess that is something I will have to wait to find out.

Still, I have to approve the film centric version of events. I can't help but imagine the GRRM's version would be a lot less cathartic.

ETA: impressed that they included BOTH battles that I wondered about. Very satisfying. Also that we learned the two dragons Tyrion freed hadn't broken free yet, but did so when their "cell" was breached by the Slave Masters bombardment.

ETA 2: janjan - looks like some form of "pig shit" came to be. The flaming balls being catapulted at Mereen had to be balls covered in flaming 'pig shit' no?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

6 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I hope little Lady Lyanna gets to be a future female leader of a new Westeros world order! She would have survived the battle, yes, in the same way that Sansa did: as a girl she'd have remained on the sidelines to watch the battle, she wouldn't have taken part.

I don't think that was the take away from that Sansa scene -  and therefor not true of Lord Lyanna etiher. Littlefinger was also there. Ramsey stayed out of the battle also. It is often the battle leader who sits surveying the battle field - not engaging mano a mano like Jon.

[Llywela]

20 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

ETA 2: janjan - looks like some form of "pig shit" came to be. The flaming balls being catapulted at Mereen had to be balls covered in flaming 'pig shit' no?

Maybe the Mad King's pigshit is still beneath King's Landing after all - he never got to use it, perhaps no one else ever cleaned it up. And we know that the pigshit used by Tyrion against Stannis's armada way back when was freshly made, under Cersei's orders, which means the Mad King's supply was never used. It was mentioned in this episode - was that a timely reminder, I wonder.

10 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I don't think that was the take away from that Sansa scene -  and therefor not true of Lord Lyanna etiher. Littlefinger was also there. Ramsey stayed out of the battle also. It is often the battle leader who sits surveying the battle field - not engaging mano a mano like Jon.

That's kinda what I meant. Lyanna's place wouldn't have been on the front lines in that battle, any more than Sansa's was, so if Sansa survived then so did Lyanna.

There was something else I wanted to say. It's gone. It'll come back to me later, perhaps...

[Anothermi]

8 minutes ago, Llywela said:

That's kinda what I meant. Lyanna's place wouldn't have been on the front lines in that battle, any more than Sansa's was, so if Sansa survived then so did Lyanna.

Ah. I thought you were referring to Sansa, as a "girl", wouldn't have participated in the battle while my point was Lyanna, as a "leader", wouldn't have.

A rather big point was made of Sansa being left out of the battle planning.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

Honestly, I think it was both. Sansa and Lyanna are both leaders, and leaders should in theory remain on the sidelines - although Jon forgot that and went charging right in. But I do think that Lyanna being a 10-year-old girl is a big part of why we didn't see her riding into battle at the head of her army. Although a girl might be accepted as overlord in the absence of a male heir, Show has also clearly demonstrated that female warriors are the exception, not the rule in Westeros. It's why Jon was bowled over by Ygritte - and one of the things that makes Wildlings stand apart. It's why Arya was seen as weird - it's why Brienne and Yara stand out. Plus, Lyanna is 10-years-old. She's not a warrior. She couldn't have taken part in the battle (any more than Sansa could - both are non-combatants) therefore is presumably still alive somewhere, which was the question I was answering.

I remembered the other thing I wanted to say - Ghost! He's the last direwolf standing. Where was he in the battle? I was afraid for him the whole time and then he never showed up. Maybe Jon left him at Castle Black with Edd?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Llywela

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Didn't stop me from crying when Ramsey had his archers shooting into the battle lines, killing everyone including his own men. The piles of bodies... That's an image that will haunt me for a long time to come.

So much this! ^^ The choice of how to portray this battle was inspired. A lot of close fighting and then those piles of bodies!

I was seriously worried for Tormund at one point, and impressed by Jon fighting his way up from being suffocated by the deluge of humanity stampeding over him.

9 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Ghost! He's the last direwolf standing. Where was he in the battle? I was afraid for him the whole time and then he never showed up. Maybe Jon left him at Castle Black with Edd?

I think Ghost came along with Jon, but, of all the direwolves, Ghost seems to have a well developed sense of self preservation.

[gingerella]

let's not write off Nymeria so quickly guys, last we know, Arya set Nymeria loose and shooed her into the forest so she would not get killed. While we have not seen her again, I hold out hope that she will reappear one day soon...

[Anothermi]

From your text to the writer's ears, Ging.

[Llywela]

I haven't forgotten Nymeria, I just don't consider her as currently in play since we haven't seen her since season one. It would be nice to think she might reappear if and when Arya makes it back to Westeros, but she's probably a lot safer wherever she is!

Here's another reason I feel encouraged currently, despite the horrific carnage in this episode. I used to worry that there was no way in hell Danaerys would ever come to terms with the Starks because she considered them enemies who'd participated in the downfall of her father and the loss of her kingdom. But Dany has changed a lot since then – she now acknowledges that her father was mad and evil and was deposed for very good reasons. She might still resent it and remains determined to retake the throne she sees as her birthright, but she is far more willing to listen to reason than she once was, and is also prepared at this point to accept that other people might also have valid points of view. I can see this Dany being prepared to accept that Ned Stark rebelled against her father not because he wanted to steal the throne but as vengeance for the murder and abduction of his family members, and forming an alliance with his surviving children to achieve a common goal, where once she'd have just demanded their heads without thinking twice. I mean, it might not happen – they may still end up fighting – but an alliance is more of a possibility now than a few years ago!

Edited June 20, 2016 by Llywela

[Llywela]

I've just remembered another thing that struck me while watching. It was a throwaway moment, but Jon gave orders for Rickon's body to be buried in the family crypt, 'beside my father'. Which – when the heck were Dear Departed Ned's mortal remains removed to Winterfell for interment? The last I recall hearing of Ned's bones was Littlefinger taking them to Catelyn as a peace offering that she, quite rightly, threw back in his face. Then Renly was murdered by the shadow baby and Cat went on the run with Brienne, and it seemed for all the world as if Ned's bones had been left behind in the chaos. Did Cat have time to have them sent on to Winterfell? Was it early enough in proceedings that Winterfell was still under Stark rule – in which case, did poor little Bran take receipt of them and have to arrange burial? Shouldn't we have known about this before now?

[DirewolfPup]

7 hours ago, Pallas said:

No one but Benjen and Meera know that Bran is alive. Between "a bastard and a girl," who now is head of House Stark?

There was a scene in which Sam told Jon about Bran heading north. When Jon and Sansa met up, they brought it up again. So currently, they don't know he is alive. But they do know that he escaped Winterfell and was heading north. That's something.

54 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I've just remembered another thing that struck me while watching. It was a throwaway moment, but Jon gave orders for Rickon's body to be buried in the family crypt, 'beside my father'. Which – when the heck were Dear Departed Ned's mortal remains removed to Winterfell for interment? The last I recall hearing of Ned's bones was Littlefinger taking them to Catelyn as a peace offering that she, quite rightly, threw back in his face. Then Renly was murdered by the shadow baby and Cat went on the run with Brienne, and it seemed for all the world as if Ned's bones had been left behind in the chaos. Did Cat have time to have them sent on to Winterfell? Was it early enough in proceedings that Winterfell was still under Stark rule – in which case, did poor little Bran take receipt of them and have to arrange burial? Shouldn't we have known about this before now?

After Renly was murdered, Brienne and Cat bolted. Cat didn't bring any of her entourage with her. I would guess that her traveling companions were Winterfell soldiers. They would have brought Ned back, no? I guess the Tyrell and Baratheon armies were feeling very generous that day.  "What? Cat Stark was involved in King Renly's murder then fled? Seems awfully incriminating. I suppose you can keep these Ned remains anyway. Bury the lad properly."

It must have been under Bran's rule. All these missing details. The hanging chads of Westeros.

[ChocButterfly]

Wow! That was...brutal.

In summary, there weren't many surprises. The battle panned out as we all expected: they'd start loosing and then LF would come with the Knights of the Vale and save the day. We all saw that happenning. Still, there was always the possibility of LF betraying Sansa, but it wasn't in his best interest. 

So we got everything we wanted: Jon won at the end and Ramsey is FINALLY dead! And I may be a sadist, because I quite enjoyed his gruesome death. But...still, it was a bittersweet winning, because it was all so brutal!! It was very well done, the showing of the true horror of war. 

That said, Jon is an IDIOT. I liked it that Sansa tried warning him. I liked when Jon asked her what they should do she was very candid and said she didn't know anything about war, but she knew Ramsey. And yet, he fell for Ramsey's trick! I thought he knew better and that he wouldn't fall for it, remembering Sansa's warning. But nope, he lost it. I beleive most of the deaths in Jon's army where his fault, including (specially!) that giant (WanWan?). Also, I know the kid was panicking and all, but Rickon should have at least tried running in zigzags or throwing himself on the floor trying to avoid the arrows. Not smart at all of both Startks.

I loved how Ramsey's death played out. I loved it that Sansa turned her sight away when the dogs started attacking, and then turned and watch it for a brief second. And then turned again and left satisfied, without watching the whole carnage, because she's not a sadistic psycho like Ramsey, but she had a right to enjoy his suffering. Heh.

Also loved the whole Yara/Dany interaction. Yara when Dany asked if they were also offering marriage: "I wasn't thinking of it, but I'm up to anything". Ha! Love this new Theon, not like a scary little rat anymore, but miles improved than that cocky asshole from season 1.

So yeah, I liked the episode a LOT, but damn that battel was brutal!!!

Edited June 20, 2016 by ChocButterfly
Double posting.

[ChocButterfly]

Sorry, double post.

Edited June 20, 2016 by ChocButterfly
Double post.

[Pallas]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I give Davos credit for not losing his shit before the big battle. He really is made of the right stuff, isn't he?  But the way he looked at Mel in Winterfell? shit is going down next week for sure with that. I don't know what he is going to do, but finally we will see that heinous decision play out its final act.

Absolutely, gingerella, and I too applauded Ser Davos's right stuff, his stoic's sense of the order of things. I don't think Davos will kill her -- he's a modest man with more than vengeance weighing on his mind. Then again, Melisandre has personally executed two of the three heirs of House Baratheon, and seen to the downfall of the third, who Davos served. (The Lord of Light knows how to work through an agenda.) So one way or another, Melisandre's last walk may be the one she foresaw, on the ramparts of Winterfell. 

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

and speaking of Sansa, I feel like she is finally A Stark, in the fullest sense. I hope they don't put her back in the chatle box now, by either having her pregnant with Ramsey's evil seed (which I would hope she would abort or kill off because it really is evil seed...and again, I can't believe I am saying that but this IS A Show...),

No chance. This has been the season where the tide turns, and the saga bares its ethos.

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

or having LF expect her to marry that moron Robyn, or himself. I

No chance he won't expect her to repay him with marriage to Robyn. Littlefinger believes he will manipulate both and rule the North by acting in their name, for a time. That seems to have been his plan all along: he used the marriage he brokered between Sansa and Ramsay to gain Cersei's blessing to re-take Winterfell from the Boltons; he didn't wait for Sansa's invitation. Then again, since Sansa survived Ramsay (which was not essential to Littlefinger's original plan), he may now urge Sansa to declare herself heir in Bran's absense, and take Littlefinger as her consort. But what he expects may not be what he gets.

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Lastly, Pallas, my equestrian brethren, that first image , from the side view, of the Bolton cavalry galloping into battle was just such a lush, dramatic and moving image, what did you think of it?  But during the battle, I kept wondering HOW they make it look like horses are being killed by arrows, etc. It has to be CGI and special effects, right? Because the ASPCA or something like that is usually on sets like this to ensure animal actors safety, yes?  Oof, that was a lot of horses...

One of my favorite, spare comments ever made in this forum: Direwolf Pup's, "This show's a dick to horses." Not, I think, because GRRM is: but because he has a fine sense of who suffers most at the hands of lords and war. A Show's themesong itself it set to the beat of a canter. The falls and rolls are stock-in-trade of stunt horses; the wounds I'm sure were CGI, sometimes supplemented by old-school attaching of arrows to tack. The AHA hires itself out to U.S. production companies to monitor on-set treatment of animals, but their involvement and their imprimature are optional. Since A Show has multiple, international production companies and is shot abroad, the AHA may not have been hired. But that doesn't mean the horses' treatment was in any way compromised -- perhaps especially in the U.K., where Northern Ireland doubles for the North.

With or without the AHA and CGI, it will always come down to the wranglers, the handlers. The mere mortals who try to protect these soulful beings, these Olympian athletes who can mortally injure themselves while eating dinner.

 

10 hours ago, Llywela said:

Does Jon know about Bran? I've been wondering that all season. Because Sam met Bran on his journey through the Wall, right, and Sam would have told Jon.

Oh, you're right, of course! I remembered that Bran but not Jon knew they'd nearly met just south of the Wall, but forgotten that Sam then met Bran (to tell Jon) (and to give Meera dragonglass). So Sansa and Jon know that Arya and Bran were alive as of "last season." They will probably try to hold WInterfell in the name of the legitimate male heir, Bran: since "cripple" still trumps "bastard" in Tyrion's famous trinity of who shall inherit the shit. But then there was the ominous unfurling of the banner of House Arryn, before the unfurling of the banner of House Stark.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Pallas

[ChocButterfly]

Again, didn't Sansa and Robyn already discussed this marriage thing? I was sure Robyn had told her it was a given. Of course, Sansa kind of ignored him, but it was apparently believed by Robyn to be a given fact that they would get married.

Hey, those dragons have REALLY grown, no??

Question: How come they didn't give the Giant some sort of weapon? Poor guy had to fight with his plain hands!

Is next week going to be when Cersei finally looses her shit and burns down King's Landing?

[ChipBach]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

Wow! That was...brutal.

In summary, there weren't many surprises. The battle panned out as we all expected: they'd start loosing and then LF would come with the Knights of the Vale and save the day. We all saw that happenning. Still, there was always the possibility of LF betraying Sansa, but it wasn't in his best interest. 

So we got everything we wanted: Jon won at the end and Ramsey is FINALLY dead! And I may be a sadist, because I quite enjoyed his gruesome death. But...still, it was a bittersweet winning, because it was all so brutal!! It was very well done, the showing of the true horror of war. 

That said, Jon is an IDIOT. I liked it that Sansa tried warning him. I liked when Jon asked her what they should do she was very candid and said she didn't know anything about war, but she knew Ramsey. And yet, he fell for Ramsey's trick! I thought he knew better and that he wouldn't fall for it, remembering Sansa's warning. But nope, he lost it. I beleive most of the deaths in Jon's army where his fault, including (specially!) that giant (WanWan?). Also, I know the kid was panicking and all, but Rickon should have at least tried running in zigzags or throwing himself on the floor trying to avoid the arrows. Not smart at all of both Startks.

I loved how Ramsey's death played out. I loved it that Sansa turned her sight away when the dogs started attacking, and then turned and watch it for a brief second. And then turned again and left satisfied, without watching the whole carnage, because she's not a sadistic psycho like Ramsey, but she had a right to enjoy his suffering. Heh.

Also loved the whole Yara/Dany interaction. Yara when Dany asked if they were also offering marriage: "I wasn't thinking of it, but I'm up to anything". Ha! Love this new Theon, not like a scary little rat anymore, but miles improved than that cocky asshole from season 1.

So yeah, I liked the episode a LOT, but damn that battel was brutal!!!

Word to Rickon trying to avoid a 300 yard launched arrow.  All he would have to do is look over his should and when the arrow was in the air, well... stop for ten seconds...  turn right...  lay down...

I love the strong women/female characters in this show, it seems like the theme is clearly that the ladies are cleaning up this world mess left by those stupid fellas...

I love Arya, Brienne, Yara, Margery (sp?), and Sansa (now).  Not so much Dany.  She has been reminded twice (so far) that indiscriminate slaughter is wrong...  While she wants to "leave the world better than she found it" and in the same sentence she continues to presume "it all belongs to her/it is her birthright".

Also, Sansa should have told Jon about the LF troops.  He specifically asked her if she had a "better idea" and she said "no".  Allowing them to walk into what could have been a certain slaughter almost made me feel Sansa wanted Jon to get killed...

[janjan]

2 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

The hanging chads of Westeros.

Some more chads, just to distract myself from envisioning images of battle -- horses upside down, piles of bodies. . .

- Sansa is still married to Tyrion. Are they assuming he's dead?

- I, too, wondered how Ned's bones made their way to Winterfell.

- And how the masters' soldiers at Mereen expect to get home.

- How did Jon get cleaned up between fighting Ramsay and giving him to Sansa? [continuity alert!]

- Stannis burned Shireen at his winter camp, not outside Winterfell.

OK, I'll shut up. I'm so overwhelmed by that ep that I can't say anything useful. But I do wonder why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the reinforcements. Pallas mentioned that Sansa feared Jon would refuse LF's help. But why would he do that? Maybe I'm so overwhelmed I can't think straight.

[Llywela]

50 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

Is next week going to be when Cersei finally looses her shit and burns down King's Landing?

I almost automatically said 'I hope so', and then had to stop and remind myself - is there anyone left in King's Landing that we care about? Margaery and Loras, at a push, I guess. Tommen seems to be doomed either way, so we may as well get it over with.

Finale should be very interesting! What other storylines do we need to wrap up in that single episode? Arya leaving Braavos. The Hound? Sam and Gilly? Jaime at Riverrun? Brienne and Pod? Jorah? I predict here and now that the final shot of the season will be Dany triumphant, setting off for Westeros in her shiny new armada - she seems to get the lion's share of final scenes!

[abcfsk]

Melisandre.. maybe her end is coming soon, but what is the moral of her story? She was honestly convinced of her beliefs, no doubt. But she's a different person now. She still talks about serving her God - and the proof that something not quite human is going on is there - but for what purpose? Is it just 'magic'? What IS the endgame for the red god religious plotlines scattered about? And for her? Certainly one point is, you may have certain powers, you may stumble across some real profound shit with galactic implications left and right, but in the end the real world can still interrupt and say, 'for all the good it'll do ya'. There's that pragmatic core of the show. So maybe Melisandre will die for no particular reason. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Some more chads, just to distract myself from envisioning images of battle -- horses upside down, piles of bodies. . .

- Sansa is still married to Tyrion. Are they assuming he's dead?

- I, too, wondered how Ned's bones made their way to Winterfell.

- And how the masters' soldiers at Mereen expect to get home.

- How did Jon get cleaned up between fighting Ramsay and giving him to Sansa? [continuity alert!]

- Stannis burned Shireen at his winter camp, not outside Winterfell.

OK, I'll shut up. I'm so overwhelmed by that ep that I can't say anything useful. But I do wonder why Sansa didn't tell Jon about the reinforcements. Pallas mentioned that Sansa feared Jon would refuse LF's help. But why would he do that? Maybe I'm so overwhelmed I can't think straight.

I believe Sansa's marriage to Tyrion is considered void because it was never consummated - that was the reasoning given for marrying her off to Ramsey despite being already married. The High Septon who performed the marriage might have a different idea!

When Jon and co. set up camp the other week, we were told it was the same place where Stannis had camped - Davos explained the reasons why Stannis chose it and why it was such a good defensible site to make camp. So we should have anticipated then that he'd find evidence of what happened to Shireen, but somehow it never occurred to me.

I expect the Masters' soldiers at Mereen will either have a very long walk, or defect to Dany's army!

[gingerella]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

he may now urge Sansa to declare herself heir in Bran's absense, and take Littlefinger as her consort. But what he expects may not be what he gets.

Actually, I am loving this new & improved Sansa Stark, badass girl power Super Stark!  And since Sansa had the good sense to not kill LF when she and Brienne had the chance when they were alone with him recently (if it'd been me, I probably would have killed him then and there, forgetting his value in this upcoming battle), I would love to see nothing more than Sansa kill LF once and for all now that she's gotten what she needed from him. For trading her into torture with Ramsey, something IIRC he alluded that he'd heard rumors about; for trying to re-enslave her into marriage with that mental inbred moron Robyn, and/or himself. After all, isn't that what he'd done with her and everyone else in this game so far?  He uses people literally as pawns in advancing his own life's chess game, and now that Sansa appears to have learned from her mistakes, perhaps she will take what she's learned from LF himself, and kill him now, once and for all.  That feels like the only way she can free herself from other people's chains, at least for the time being.

That said, I could see him mind-fucking her though, or at least trying to, by suddenly confessing his undying love for Sansa, and how he had no other options re: the Ramsey marriage but he always wanted her for himself, and that she is so much more than her mother ever was, blah blah blah fishcakes...I hope we don't hear that drivel but we all know that when LF is held to the fire, his forked tongue can create glimmering pearls that most people would want to believe...

2 hours ago, abcfsk said:

Melisandre.. maybe her end is coming soon, but what is the moral of her story? She was honestly convinced of her beliefs, no doubt. But she's a different person now. She still talks about serving her God - and the proof that something not quite human is going on is there - but for what purpose? Is it just 'magic'? What IS the endgame for the red god religious plotlines scattered about? And for her? Certainly one point is, you may have certain powers, you may stumble across some real profound shit with galactic implications left and right, but in the end the real world can still interrupt and say, 'for all the good it'll do ya'. There's that pragmatic core of the show. So maybe Melisandre will die for no particular reason.

abcfsk, it would be a damn shame if Mel died simply because A Show wanted to prove it's power over characters 'just because'. I feel like Mel is destined to meet up with the BWoBs, and finally meet another with perhaps more power than she has. Up til now, I don't think we've ever heard her talk about "the others" out there that are doing what she's doing, magic-wise, and all we've seen so far of others is the resurrection of Berick Dondarrion, no other smoke babies, etc. The Red Witch currently in Mereen is only talking, not doing anything particularly magic noteworthy. So perhaps Mel has another purpose? We've seen that while Stannis took her as infallible, she actually does make mistakes in interpreting the LoLs will, as she plainly said to Jon last night. I had forgotten that Mel had a vision of her walking the ramparts of Winterfell, which certainly now feels forboding of her fate, though I'm okay with her sticking around a bit longer because it seems like a lot of magic is going to be needed if the humans are to survive the onslaught of WWs and the Army of the Dead that is currently lumbering towards them like a bad rendition of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video.

6 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

All these missing details. The hanging chads of Westeros.

Pup, this is the single best Spitball quote of S6, thank you for bringing some levity to such a heavy episode!

[ChocButterfly]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

he may now urge Sansa to declare herself heir in Bran's absense, and take Littlefinger as her consort. But what he expects may not be what he gets.

 Or Sansa could end up marrying Littlefinger without being coerced into it and try to outsmart him and/or start playing the game of thrones! But I don't think she's smart enough for that yet.

[gingerella]

Shadowlass!!! You're back!

[Pallas]

10 hours ago, janjan said:

I, too, wondered how Ned's bones made their way to Winterfell.

My guess is that Stannis found Ned's coffin, left behind, when he took over Renly's camp, and had it escorted to Winterfell. It was Ned who informed Stannis that he, Stannis, was the rightful king and why, and Ned who Joffrey executed for that treason. The same Stannis who knighted Davos and then chopped off his fingertips with the same sword, would honor Ned in death while trying to send his son and heir to join him.  

9 hours ago, abcfsk said:

Melisandre.. maybe her end is coming soon, but what is the moral of her story? She was honestly convinced of her beliefs, no doubt. But she's a different person now.

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I feel like Mel is destined to meet up with the BWoBs, and finally meet another with perhaps more power than she has. Up til now, I don't think we've ever heard her talk about "the others" out there that are doing what she's doing, magic-wise, and all we've seen so far of others is the resurrection of Berick Dondarrion, no other smoke babies, etc. The Red Witch currently in Mereen is only talking, not doing anything particularly magic noteworthy. 

I love the idea of a more modest Melisandre working in concert with other clergy, as a new force brought to bear against the Walkers. Not only clergy of the Red God, either: I'd be surprised if this is a story about the one true faith...And I can't want Melisandre to die now, not when she's become the woman who, when Jon brooded, "What kind of god would..." rejoined, "The one we've got." That's someone who brings something to the table.

Melisandre has met the Brothers -- our Brothers, not the crew of reavers that our Brothers and the Hound hanged: she paid them to deliver Gendry to her. Hearing that Thoros had been regularly resurrecting Berrick, she was taken aback and acknowledged that the Lord of Light had not seen fit to use her in this way. That was the first time we saw her shaken. The Mereen witch did read Varys's past to him, including the secret whispered by the flames, which she communicated telepathically -- and accurately, judging by Vary's pained consternation.   

10 hours ago, janjan said:

Pallas mentioned that Sansa feared Jon would refuse LF's help. But why would he do that?

Sansa seems to have lied to Jon about Littlefinger three times now, directly or by omission: when she told Jon that she had overheard Ramsay say that the Blackfish had re-taken Riverrun; when she wrote to Littlefinger, and on the eve of the battle, when she refused to confess that Littlefinger and the army of the Vale were on their way. It's possible she only learned the latter once the battle had begun: a messenger could have arrived at camp, and Sansa ridden off at once to meet Littlefinger, rather than by pre-arrangement. But the other deceptions are clear-cut.  

Why? Perhaps she thought that Jon would not ally with a brothelkeeper who backed the Lannisters in the war, was awarded Harrenhall and Lysa's hand as his reward, then betrayed the Lannisters and the Starks as well, when he handed Sansa to the Boltons. That could be part of it, but I think it's also that Sansa knows much more and worse about him. She knows he's no one to mess with or trust about anything: she knows he conspired to kill his king and also, witnessed him kill two of his allies -- including his wife, her aunt. Sansa's deeply ambivalent about Littlefinger, and she could be projecting her own doubts onto Jon. And it does seem very possible that Littlefinger never did answer her letter, so Sansa saw no reason to suggest that Jon delay untll he arrived.  

As for Littlefinger, he may not have answered because he wanted to set up exactly what transpired: Jon attacking Ramsay on his own, and losing nearly all his army before Littlefinger arrived. That leaves Littlefinger the true hero of the battle for Winterfell (with Jon cast as Tyrion at Blackwater, or as Jon in the battle against Mance) -- and Littlefinger as the only victor left with an army.  

[Anothermi]

18 hours ago, Llywela said:

I've just remembered another thing that struck me while watching. It was a throwaway moment, but Jon gave orders for Rickon's body to be buried in the family crypt, 'beside my father'. Which – when the heck were Dear Departed Ned's mortal remains removed to Winterfell for interment?

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

My guess is that Stannis found Ned's coffin, left behind, when he took over Renly's camp, and had it escorted to Winterfell. It was Ned who informed Stannis that he, Stannis, was the rightful king and why, and Ned who Joffrey executed for that treason. The same Stannis who knighted Davos and then chopped off his fingertips with the same sword, would honor Ned in death while trying to send his son and heir to join him. 

Good catch Llywela, and good explanation Pallas. I did hear Jon say "beside my father" yet I processed it as "with the rest of the family". I think that's as close as we are going to get to closing the Milk Carton campaign for them bones (them bones, them.. dry bones). Last year Pallas added them to the Milk Carton list.

Quote

(The Remains of) Lord Eddard Stark  - Last seen being multi-purposed by Petyr Balish as the centerpiece of a Final Rose Ceremony, in the camp of Renly Baratheon. - Pallas

This show has, for the most part, respected our need for rational, in-story logic to explain things. It's usually given us a bread crumb trail to follow - should we have the ability to perceive it. Pallas seems to have found the most obvious, logical trail. I'm prepared to close the campaign based on this explanation.

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

I love the idea of a more modest Melisandre working in concert with other clergy, as a new force brought to bear against the Walkers. Not only clergy of the Red God, either: I'd be surprised if this is a story about the one true faith...And I can't want Melisandre to die now, not when she's become the woman who, when Jon brooded, "What kind of god would..." rejoined, "The one we've got." That's someone who brings something to the table.

^^Yes to this. I think Mel has a greater purpose, while at the same time I want Davos to get some closure. Ai-eee! The conflicting needs of A Viewer! But Mel and her God - the one she's got - is all about Fire... and the Night King et al (WW/zombonis) are all about ICE! They've got to face each other down. As Gingerella so poetically put it:

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

I'm okay with her sticking around a bit longer because it seems like a lot of magic is going to be needed if the humans are to survive the onslaught of WWs and the Army of the Dead that is currently lumbering towards them like a bad rendition of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video.

 

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Sansa seems to have lied to Jon about Littlefinger three times now, directly or by omission: when she told Jon that she had overheard Ramsay say that the Blackfish had re-taken Riverrun; when she wrote to Littlefinger, and on the eve of the battle, when she refused to confess that Littlefinger and the army of the Vale were on their way. It's possible she only learned the latter once the battle had begun: a messenger could have arrived at camp, and Sansa ridden off at once to meet Littlefinger, rather than by pre-arrangement. But the other deceptions are clear-cut.

Such a thought provoking post Pallas. Reading this part made me wonder if Sansa is seriously conflicted about Littlefinger? She HAS become...

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

this new & improved Sansa Stark, badass girl power Super Stark! 

She HAS learned from her horrific experiences - to the extent that she knew that she would never see her little brother Rickon again and had accepted that. She is now hardened enough to accept "collateral damage" (a word I hate and can. not. accept) as inevitable. (will the walnuts miss him? or feel liberated? - I will miss him. He was more than a plot device to me.)

I concur with Pallas' assessment that -

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

I think it's also that Sansa knows much more and worse about him. She knows he's no one to mess with or trust about anything: she knows he conspired to kill his king and also, witnessed him kill two of his allies -- including his wife, her aunt. Sansa's deeply ambivalent about Littlefinger, and she could be projecting her own doubts onto Jon.

She IS ambivalent about him. It may be the one remnant of her girlhood "happily-ever-after" fantasy that she hasn't had crushed? I really can't figure it out.

For his part, I think there may be a parallel of Sansa's conflict in Littlefinger. For the first time he has been able to be the powerful man... saving/defending his "lady" from the "other man" (Bolton in this case, but as Rickard Stark did for Cat > to Littlefinger). He may harbour a hope that he has "earned her". Hard to say as his entire story line has been one of the jaded "little guy" who's getting his revenge on everyone. I'm still acutely aware that this is a GRRM story and he's not been one for Happily Ever After.

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

As for Littlefinger, he may not have answered because he wanted to set up exactly what transpired: Jon attacking Ramsay on his own, and losing nearly all his army before Littlefinger arrived. That leaves Littlefinger the true hero of the battle for Winterfell (with Jon cast as Tyrion at Blackwater, or as Jon in the battle against Mance) -- and Littlefinger as the only victor left with an army.  

Abso - fucking - lutely! That is definitely his plan. I am only uncertain about what part Sansa/Cat-substitute plays.

14 hours ago, janjan said:

- How did Jon get cleaned up between fighting Ramsay and giving him to Sansa? [continuity alert!]

And on a completely different note... ^^ THIS.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

On 2016-06-19 at 10:56 PM, Pallas said:

Also good riddance? Lord Umber, chewed to death by Tormund, one of the Wildlngs he used as his excuse to ally with Ramsay, and Lord Bolton: last of his name. 

I guess of the two turncoat Bannermen, Umber 2.0 was the best to see the demise of. He killed Shaggy Dog and sold out Walnut-crusher Rickon. Karstark OTOH, who actually HAD a beef with a Stark, where was he in this battle? Did anyone recognize him in any of the battle scenes?

On 2016-06-19 at 11:03 PM, gingerella said:

I enjoyed Sansa feeding Ramsey to his own dogs. Dare I say, it was a very satisfying karmic retribution moment? I loved her satisfied smile as she walked away from that scene.

YES. And this time Littlefinger didn't insinuate himself into her happy place  to wipe the smile off her face. (Like he did a few seconds after she was quietly rejoicing at being freed of her betrothal to Joffrey.) Win!

22 hours ago, Llywela said:

I used to worry that there was no way in hell Danaerys would ever come to terms with the Starks because she considered them enemies who'd participated in the downfall of her father and the loss of her kingdom. But Dany has changed a lot since then – she now acknowledges that her father was mad and evil and was deposed for very good reasons. She might still resent it and remains determined to retake the throne she sees as her birthright, but she is far more willing to listen to reason than she once was, and is also prepared at this point to accept that other people might also have valid points of view. I can see this Dany being prepared to accept that Ned Stark rebelled against her father not because he wanted to steal the throne but as vengeance for the murder and abduction of his family members, and forming an alliance with his surviving children to achieve a common goal, where once she'd have just demanded their heads without thinking twice. I mean, it might not happen – they may still end up fighting – but an alliance is more of a possibility now than a few years ago!

Well spoken, Llywela. It wasn't spelled out, but what she learned from Jorah and Barriston Selmy, who laid the ground work of steering her from her scorch and burn plan, to Tyrion - with his tactical-diplomacy-without-naivety -  was fully visible in what we were shown this episode. 

17 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Ha! Love this new Theon, not like a scary little rat anymore, but miles improved than that cocky asshole from season 1.

Ditto. If that little shit can be turned into what we saw tonight... Anything is possible. No. <firmly turns away from thoughts of Jaime.>

17 hours ago, Pallas said:

One of my favorite, spare comments ever made in this forum: Direwolf Pup's, "This show's a dick to horses." Not, I think, because GRRM is: but because he has a fine sense of who suffers most at the hands of lords and war. A Show's themesong itself it set to the beat of a canter. The falls and rolls are stock-in-trade of stunt horses; the wounds I'm sure were CGI, sometimes supplemented by old-school attaching of arrows to tack. The AHA hires itself out to U.S. production companies to monitor on-set treatment of animals, but their involvement and their imprimature are optional. Since A Show has multiple, international production companies and is shot abroad, the AHA may not have been hired. But that doesn't mean the horses' treatment was in any way compromised -- perhaps especially in the U.K., where Northern Ireland doubles for the North.

With or without the AHA and CGI, it will always come down to the wranglers, the handlers. The mere mortals who try to protect these soulful beings, these Olympian athletes who can mortally injure themselves while eating dinner.

Thank you, Gingerella, for asking, and Pallas, for providing answers to the questions that keeps speeding across my consciousness while watching these battles.

17 hours ago, Pallas said:

But then there was the ominous unfurling of the banner of House Arryn, before the unfurling of the banner of House Stark.

Humm. I re-watched because I didn't see this. Still didn't see it on second watch. I saw two banners unfurled after the flayed man ones were disposed of. Both were Direwolf Banners. The first took a while to unfurl and may have looked a bit like a bird, but LF's Mockingbird doesn't have those (agreed, feather-like) markings within the shape - nor the teeth at one end. Not going to claim it will remain this way, but the ending of this episode was a complete Stark WIN. Next episode LF can sow his seeds of chaos.

17 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Question: How come they didn't give the Giant some sort of weapon? Poor guy had to fight with his plain hands!

Yeah. That. I'm guessing that it would take more steel and a much bigger forge than they had to make a weapon that wouldn't look foolish in his hands - not to mention more time than they had.

17 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

Is next week going to be when Cersei finally looses her shit and burns down King's Landing?

I think this may not happen until next season. They've got to keep something back.

16 hours ago, ChipBach said:

Word to Rickon trying to avoid a 300 yard launched arrow.  All he would have to do is look over his should and when the arrow was in the air, well... stop for ten seconds...  turn right...  lay down...

Welcome to the Spitball Wall, ChipBach. Yup. Agreed. I kept trying to make him zig or zag with pinball playing moves. Of course, Ramsey was totally toying with him. One thing we know from endless torture episodes is that Ramsey is a very. good. shot. with an arrow. And to make it obvious, they showed him looking away from Rickon at least once - with his sadistic grin on his face - while he was "aiming". Rickon, poor guy, never got any kind of battle training. Too young when this whole saga started and too abandoned as it progressed. Osha did her best, but she was a wildling, not versed in battles. Plus, now I think about it, I don't remember any scenes where Ramsey is "hunting" people where any of them zigged or zagged.

And while I'm catching up on posts/ideas I've missed replying to:

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

Shadowlass!!! You're back!

Second this. Even if it's just lurking, it feels good to have the presence of another member of the Wall. (you too WS) Our numbers have reduced equivalent to those at Castle Black!

[abcfsk]

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

abcfsk, it would be a damn shame if Mel died simply because A Show wanted to prove it's power over characters 'just because'. I feel like Mel is destined to meet up with the BWoBs, and finally meet another with perhaps more power than she has. Up til now, I don't think we've ever heard her talk about "the others" out there that are doing what she's doing, magic-wise, and all we've seen so far of others is the resurrection of Berick Dondarrion, no other smoke babies, etc. The Red Witch currently in Mereen is only talking, not doing anything particularly magic noteworthy. So perhaps Mel has another purpose? We've seen that while Stannis took her as infallible, she actually does make mistakes in interpreting the LoLs will, as she plainly said to Jon last night. I had forgotten that Mel had a vision of her walking the ramparts of Winterfell, which certainly now feels forboding of her fate, though I'm okay with her sticking around a bit longer because it seems like a lot of magic is going to be needed if the humans are to survive the onslaught of WWs and the Army of the Dead that is currently lumbering towards them like a bad rendition of Michael Jackson's "Thriller" video.

You're probably right. But I think there would be some poetic beauty in her arc still if she were to realize there was no grand purpose to her steely (possessed?) resolve. 

I talked about religion in a previous season and speculated that while there's certainly 'something' to this Red Religion, it's not certain that it's a god, or a true higher purpose. It may just be magic tricks, blunt sorcery. 

But as you say, even "simply" magic tricks sure could help fighting angry disco zombies. 

And as Pallas says, she can still serve an interesting purpose on the show with her new, ehm, improved self. 

[Glory]

I would give anything for Sansa to do away with Littlefinger and then take up as guardian of her poor cousin Robyn until he comes of age, ruling both Winterfell and the Vale.

Sansa Stark - True Queen in the North. 

(Who would have thought I'd ever type that sentence when she was mooning over Joffrey back in season 1!)

[ChipBach]

6 hours ago, abcfsk said:

You're probably right. But I think there would be some poetic beauty in her arc still if she were to realize there was no grand purpose to her steely (possessed?) resolve. 

I talked about religion in a previous season and speculated that while there's certainly 'something' to this Red Religion, it's not certain that it's a god, or a true higher purpose. It may just be magic tricks, blunt sorcery. 

But as you say, even "simply" magic tricks sure could help fighting angry disco zombies. 

And as Pallas says, she can still serve an interesting purpose on the show with her new, ehm, improved self. 

I think she is already humbled to a great extent.  She was pretty obnoxious when she thought she was central to her gods plan.  Now she realizes she isn't really and she had a little girl brutally murdered to feed more of her ego than her gods wishes...

[ChocButterfly]

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Yeah. That. I'm guessing that it would take more steel and a much bigger forge than they had to make a weapon that wouldn't look foolish in his hands - not to mention more time than they had.

Man, at last give him a tree trunk or something! I'm sure a giant swinging a tree trunk (or even swinging people around) would have broken the Bolton's lines at some point.

Jon seemed to be pissed at Sansa at the end. I don't blame him, she should have told him about the Vale's army. I know she wasn't sure if they were going to show up, but she should have said something to him. However, Jon acted so stupidly at the battle that maybe it was a good idea she didn't tell him. Guy could have screwed up the battle even more. Idiot!

[ChipBach]

Sansa has gotten pretty icy tho.  Just letting her bro get "did" like that.  I would have thought some sort of bone-headed rescue was worth a shot since she knew he was a dead kid anyway.  She did try to tell Jon that the kid would be used to manipulate him.  I actually thought the reaction was not believable on Jon's part.  He seemed like a dude that could think clearly even when confronted with some real ugly stuff.  When Ygritte (sp?) bought it he was heartbroken yet he managed to put it by him until the issue was decided.  I didn't buy how he was written.

[Pallas]

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I think Mel has a greater purpose, while at the same time I want Davos to get some closure. Ai-eee!

Ai-eee! is right, Anothermi! But I've decided that Davos, mensch that he is, wlll find some way other than violence to honor Shireen. It's not Sansa or Jorah who's love's martyr in this saga: it's Shireen. She was the essense of agape. Her last request of Davos was that he come back to carve her a mate for her stag, and to read "Dance of Dragons" with her -- not that he murder in her name.

Davos could honor Shireen by looking at Melisandre in the whole: she saved Shireen's life in infancy; she vanquished Renly and spared thousands when Stannis was outnumbered; she heeded Davos when he brought the ravengram about the Walkers to Stannis's attention; she acted, always, on the orders of Shireen's parents, the same king and queen that Davos served. 

He could also acknowledge how he feels he wronged his son even before he dispatched him to die at Blackwater, and his own small, much less culpable part in Shireen's death: freeing Gendry by his own judgment, leaving only Shireen as a source of king's blood; then obeying Stannis against his own judgment, and leaving Shireen behind when he was sent away, for reasons he suspected at the time. He could accept that he and Melisandre came north for one purpose -- to save all life -- and have yet to tend to it. Killing Melisandre will not save Shireen, but sparing Melisandre might help save millions more.

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

She HAS learned from her horrific experiences - to the extent that she knew that she would never see her little brother Rickon again and had accepted that. She is now hardened enough to accept "collateral damage" (a word I hate and can. not. accept) as inevitable. (will the walnuts miss him? or feel liberated? - I will miss him. He was more than a plot device to me.)

Agree everywhere. ("Will the walnuts miss him?")  Sansa knew Rickon was dead just as Rickon knew he'd never see Cat again, and that Ned was dead. Differently though: Rickon seemed to see with second sight; Sansa, through hard experience.

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

For his part, I think there may be a parallel of Sansa's conflict in Littlefinger. For the first time he has been able to be the powerful man... saving/defending his "lady" from the "other man" (Bolton in this case, but as Rickard Stark did for Cat > to Littlefinger). He may harbour a hope that he has "earned her". Hard to say as his entire story line has been one of the jaded "little guy" who's getting his revenge on everyone.

"Earning her" is getting his revenge on everyone...and yes, it speaks to what's left of the lowborn boy who thought he was in love with Catelyn Tully. Which isn't much, because I don't think it was ever real. Littlefinger is the real eunich in the story, and he did it to himself.

17 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I saw two banners unfurled after the flayed man ones were disposed of. Both were Direwolf Banners. The first took a while to unfurl and may have looked a bit like a bird, but LF's Mockingbird doesn't have those (agreed, feather-like) markings within the shape - nor the teeth at one end. Not going to claim it will remain this way, but the ending of this episode was a complete Stark WIN. Next episode LF can sow his seeds of chaos.

Yikers! Thank you for the correction! I'd thought the emblem on the first banner was the falcon seen on the Vale knights' banners -- at least I think the latter was a falcon (and that the falcon is the totem of the Vale!). But what the fuck do I know: apparently, I'm a dick to direwolves.

[gingerella]

32 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Littlefinger is the real eunich in the story, and he did it to himself.

Wow and yesss! LF is much more a eunuch than Varys ever could be. I believe that Varys can still feel deeply about things, and even feel love and affection. OTOH, I don't think LF can feel anything much less real love and affection. Sure he still has the hardware down below, but he's more of a eunuch that Varys ever could be. What a great observation Pallas!

[Anothermi]

22 hours ago, Pallas said:

But what the fuck do I know: apparently, I'm a dick to direwolves.

Hee! If you say so, but you'll have to take your place at the end of the line that begins with Theon (all the pups, but interrupted), then Knifey (Summer), then Joffrey/Cersei/Robert (Nymeria but ultimately Lady), then Ned (Lady), then the Frey's & Boltons (Robb's direwolf - what's his name), then the Night's Watch rebels at Craster's Keep (Ghost & Summer), then Not!Great Umber (Shaggy Dog), and even Aliser Thorne and sundry Night's Watch members (Ghost). ETA: AND you have to get behind the horde of zombonis who ravaged Summer (thanks Ging)

Pack a lunch. It's a long walk to the end of that line.

22 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yikers! Thank you for the correction! I'd thought the emblem on the first banner was the falcon seen on the Vale knights' banners -- at least I think the latter was a falcon (and that the falcon is the totem of the Vale!).

The sigil of the Vale (as per the Unspoiled Guide) IS the Falcon... and the Crescent Moon.  The troops of the Vale's banner's had that emblem on them during the fight for Winterfell. White falcon and crescent on blue background.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Anothermi
add a bunch more dicks-to-direwolves

[gingerella]

Wolf Watch:

So we know that Ghost is probably still alive, and Nymeria was shooed into the forest somewhere along King's Road so she is likely still alive though whether we will ever see her again remains to be seen. A Viewer holds out hope that when Arya finally makes it back to Winterfell, somehow, Nymeria will find her again since the Stark kids are connected to their wolves.  But...anothermi, did Summer die in the zomboni attack at Tree Root Dude's place? I honestly cannot remember...

As for sigils, I don't think we've talked about this yet but man, when the Stark banner was unfurled at Winterfell after the battle, I damn near cried like a baby, I was so fucking happy! Seeing the Bolton banners dropped to the ground I was like, "hell YES!" and when that banner unfurled and I saw that wolf sigil, in my head I was yelling, "HELL YEAH BABY!"

[WhiteStumbler]

Just stopping by to thank you all for your (usual and customary) outstanding and entertaining work, and to say that, if A Show's credits have the Stark direwolf sigil on top of the little twisty bit next to Winterfell in the credits on Sunday, that distant "FUCK YEAH!" you hear -- that will be me.

I am preparing ice packs just in case, because I will probably injure something during my fist-pumping.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

But...anothermi, did Summer die in the zomboni attack at Tree Root Dude's place? I honestly cannot remember...

Yes sir-ee Bob... Ging! Added them to the list. Thanks.

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

Just stopping by to thank you all for your (usual and customary) outstanding and entertaining work, and to say that, if A Show's credits have the Stark direwolf sigil on top of the little twisty bit next to Winterfell in the credits on Sunday, that distant "FUCK YEAH!" you hear -- that will be me.

I am preparing ice packs just in case, because I will probably injure something during my fist-pumping.

Thanks for the tip WS. How could they NOT make that change? My heart breaks every Sunday to see that flayed man a top Winterfell in the credits. I linger on the Weirwood tree still managing to thrive in the God's Wood annex - just to hold me over at least 'till the Wall sequence.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

A Viewer holds out hope that when Arya finally makes it back to Winterfell, somehow, Nymeria will find her again since the Stark kids are connected to their wolves.

So much more so in hind sight even though it seemed clear right from the start.

Nymeria/Arya - When we first met her, Nymeria was shown to be a quick learner AND stubborn, with a mind of her own. Even Arya couldn't tell Nymeria to blindly follow orders (sound like the Arya we've seen since they parted?) So far (both) have spent the majority of the story wandering the world alone. Surviving on wits and the help of strangers. Agree they need to get back together to fulfill their destiny - whatever it is.

Lady/Sansa - Of course Sansa named her direwolf "Lady". Her direwolf's fate foreshadowed her own. She wanted to be a Lady - in the prim-est sense of the word. She was cruelly disabused of the very existence of that notion. She will never be that "lady" YET, she still could become a Lady like Lyanna Mormont. A leader, NOT a please-er.

Grey Wind/Robb - (sheesh, I had to look up his direwolf's name) Probably the most straight forward connection of all of them. They fought and won together (battle against Jaime in the Riverlands) - both getting accolades. They both were enclosed in a room and killed in the most cowardly way possible... then literally joined together to be ridiculed.

Shaggy Dog/Rickon - Wild and untamed, untrained. Betrayed by the very people they expected to shelter and support them.

Summer/Bran - This could be a spitball. Summer gave his life protecting the one he was loyal to. Will Bran have to make that decision too? Perhaps on a more "meta" scale?

Ghost/Jon Snow - Ghost is the wolf we've seen the most yet he seems, to me, more like a brother to Jon than a Avatar (not the word I'm looking for, but can't find a better one right now). Fights beside and takes orders from Jon. Disappears when Jon goes undercover. Re-joins Jon when that mission is over. Ghost is more like Jon's Night's Watch buddies.

 

On 2016-06-21 at 6:35 AM, Glory said:

I would give anything for Sansa to do away with Littlefinger and then take up as guardian of her poor cousin Robyn until he comes of age, ruling both Winterfell and the Vale.

Sansa Stark - True Queen in the North. 

(Who would have thought I'd ever type that sentence when she was mooning over Joffrey back in season 1!)

Great idea, Glory, and welcome back. Happy to see you are able to join us before the end this season. Look forward to hearing more from you.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Anothermi
various spelling issues

[gingerella]

^^Wondeful analogy of each Stark kid and their wolf! I big puffy heart that entire post...

ETA, I think what you were getting at with Jon and Ghost is that Ghost is Jon's spirit animal, yes?

Edited June 23, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

I think what you were getting at with Jon and Ghost is that Ghost is Jon's spirit animal, yes?

Well, that's sure as hell better than avatar!

[ChocButterfly]

I wonder, we haven't seen Ghost much since Jon came back from the dead. Maybe Ghost has kind of distanced himself from Jon because he doesn't feel connected to him anymore??

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

I wonder, we haven't seen Ghost much since Jon came back from the dead. Maybe Ghost has kind of distanced himself from Jon because he doesn't feel connected to him anymore??

Hmmm, interesting Choc, I do remember that Ghost had a sort of weird demeanor when Jon was still laying dead on that table, and he sort of slunk away when Jon got up, IIRC...I wonder that that means...Technically Jon is alive so I'm hoping that Ghost is just off doing his thang right now.