The Business of American Ninja Warror

[Fukui San]

Bringing this in from the episode thread as I think it's worth talking about but is getting off topic.

14 hours ago, slf said:

Whoever wins a course gets a payment, it's two grand I think. But you have to win it, you can't just complete it, which is why so many of these guys are running at breakneck speed. It's just not as much money as they want. As I said in my post, I don't oppose them receiving payment or having their travel expenses covered. But Caldiero wanted to get paid just to compete and it sounds from what I've read that he isn't the only one. So if I live near where they're filming and I send in a convincing tape and get invited on (or miraculously get chosen from the line), but I fall halfway through the floating steps, I get to take a $2000 bath? Don't over 500 people end up competing in the qualifiers? 

In my view, there's three ways this show can go. 1) Everyone loses interest in the obstacle course concept, the ratings dwindle and it's unceremoniously cancelled like the American Gladiators revival or, hey, are they even making "Wipeout" anymore? 2) The show maintains about this level of popularity of OK cheap summer filler but no more, and no other network or entity is tempted to do a similar show, so they can continue to treat contestants like free labor in perpetuity. Or 3) Someone else decides to do a knockoff show and tries to sign away the "stars" and future "stars" to a rival show. If this show was as popular as American Idol in its prime, there'd already be four knockoffs in the pipeline. At that point it would be a matter of how ironclad these contracts are, because if they aren't the top guys and girls will want to leave with barely a goodbye. If a rival show could peel off the 20 biggest names from this show, which show would you watch if the presentations are around equal? Or even if the guys who've appeared on the show can't get out, a new show could quickly build up new "stars" from whoever hasn't been locked down.

The NFL analogy doesn't really match.  If the NFL didn't pay any players except for the Super Bowl MVP and only if they won the Super Bowl by 30 points, then it might match the pay structure of Ninja Warrior.  I'm pretty sure the NFL players would try to get a better deal than that, given that the games would still be televised and the league makes money from it.

So yes, I'm saying this show should strongly consider paying your Jessie Graffs, your Joe Moravsky's, your Kaseys and Meagans, your Lance Pekus's, your Isaac Caldiero's and Geoff Brittens some money upfront separate from the prize monies.  But if they don't, and it's entirely their choice, they shouldn't act shocked if Fox decides to start America's Next Top Free Runner and all the people they've invested time in promoting leave in record time for greener pastures.

[simplyme]

1 hour ago, Fukui San said:

The NFL analogy doesn't really match.  If the NFL didn't pay any players except for the Super Bowl MVP and only if they won the Super Bowl by 30 points, then it might match the pay structure of Ninja Warrior.  I'm pretty sure the NFL players would try to get a better deal than that, given that the games would still be televised and the league makes money from it.

The reason NFL players are paid a decent amount is that the level of talent and commitment it requires to play at that level is a rare commodity.  Also, they're unionized.  NFL stars get huge wages because they are gamechangers.

The level of talent required to be a ninja at this point just isn't as rare.  If 20 of the "best" ninjas were to suddenly not compete anymore, they could be replaced without a drastic difference in the product quality.  If you removed the top 20 players from the NFL, it would be noticeable.  There is often a large talent gap between first and second string, and an even larger one between second/third string and college level.

Maybe we should compare it to pro golf instead, as that is a person vs environment sport where the best performer wins rather than team vs team.  If the top 20 golfers in the world disappeared, they would be hard to replace.  That said, pro golfers make money by winning and through endorsements.  They don't get paid to train and play.  They actually have to pay an entry fee for tournaments, too.

Edited June 15, 2016 by simplyme

[Chaos Theory]

Paying these guys to show I'd probably say no to myself.  Now paying those who complete the course is another matter and paying those who complete the course the fastest....yes they should get paid for that.  

[simplyme]

19 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Paying these guys to show I'd probably say no to myself.  Now paying those who complete the course is another matter and paying those who complete the course the fastest....yes they should get paid for that.  

I think they would then have to standardize the city qualifiers to all be the same.  

Other than that, paying some amount to finishers is reasonable to me, with bonuses for top times.  The more stages you complete, the more you get paid.  This would essentially be changing the payout system from the gameshow-like "Winner gets all... or nothing!" and moving to a more conventionally performance-based tiered spread of the loot.  A lot of sports and other competitions (poker tournaments, for example) give the first place finisher the lion's share of the money, but second, third, etc. place also get smaller payouts.

The only problem with this is that while I certainly think it's fair, I don't see any incentive for the producers to do it.  Their goal is to make the most money they can.

[slf]

14 hours ago, Fukui San said:

Or 3) Someone else decides to do a knockoff show and tries to sign away the "stars" and future "stars" to a rival show. If this show was as popular as American Idol in its prime, there'd already be four knockoffs in the pipeline. At that point it would be a matter of how ironclad these contracts are, because if they aren't the top guys and girls will want to leave with barely a goodbye. If a rival show could peel off the 20 biggest names from this show, which show would you watch if the presentations are around equal? Or even if the guys who've appeared on the show can't get out, a new show could quickly build up new "stars" from whoever hasn't been locked down.

I would still watch this one because one of the major draws of the show is people accomplishing something you , and sometimes even they, think they can't do. I don't like Caldiero, Arnold, Dreschel*. I'm okay with Kevin Bull and Stratis, and I really like Britten, Catanzaro, Martin, Graff. But if they went off to their own show and it was the 'top' Ninja Warriors competing year after year? I would not watch that. For a number of reasons (including if they want to be treated like pro athletes and get paid upfront then I think being able to advance after having fallen and failed to complete a course is b.s.; if they started paying them like that then I think the rules and structure should change drastically, like cap the number of times they can compete) but especially because the newcomers are often more exciting than watching Drew Dreschel try to run as fast as he can through the course year after year after year after year. The only time Caldiero ever entertained me was when he fell on the body prop.

Again. I think they should receive compensation but no I do not believe the veteran contestants should get paid just to show up. Britten wouldn't have been paid just to compete last year and he became the first person to complete stage 4. Which, imo, is what the show is about.

Sorry, I just don't agree.

*I fully intend to skip the runs of most of the veterans, to be honest. What, precisely, is the appeal in watching Arnold? Steffenson? Or Dreschel? Britten made it far in this first year, wiping out on the Jumping Spider in Vegas, and in his second year? Had a perfect run, hitting all the buttons, and becoming the first person to complete stage 4. That's interesting.

Edited June 16, 2016 by slf

[Morgan of Hed]

The appeal in watching any of the top guys is just to see skilled athletes perform well, regardless of the backstory.  Unlike many here, I've got no beef with Caldiero, I think he's an amazing athlete and I enjoy watching him run.

If I want to see people biff, I'll go look for reruns of MXC.   Right you are, Ken!

[ClareWalks]

Maybe they should get paid for advancing. The payday could get a bit more each stage. Or they could pay competitors who FINISH the courses (regardless of time) a token sum, maybe $1K or something. Appearance fees are a step too far at this point, but rewarding good performance would be motivating, I would think.

[Chaos Theory]

I think it all comes down to what NBC think ANW is.  Is it a game show?  A sport?  A obstical race?  Hell even a reality show,  They were kind of in a tough spot last year.  They needed someone to win but they would have liked to pick who that someone was.  They would not have picked Calderio.  Now that someone has won they have made all the obsticals more difficult because they don't want or need someone to win for another couple of years.  

 

This is is too much a reality show to NBC for them to pay out anyone right now even though they should.  Not with new blood willing to wait in line for five days just for the chance to run the course.  It a pity though.  I think a lot of the pros deserve some sort of payout especially those who routinely complete courses.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[AuntieDiane6]

Quote

The only problem with this is that while I certainly think it's fair, I don't see any incentive for the producers to do it.  Their goal is to make the most money they can.

Paying people fairly is a good incentive because it's the right thing to do. 

[lilabennet]

The concept that it would be "fair" to pay these people is ludicrous, because, even though some of them are crazy enough to make ANW their whole lives, it is still essentially a hobby.  The contestants are all adults who participate of their own free will knowing that only the winner of each course is paid.  That is more than "fair" enough as far as I am concerned.  Now, if all of the vets want to get together and unionize for an appearance fee, then good for them, that's just business.  If a similar show pops up and ANW needs to start paying appearance fees to keep their talent, then that's just a free market economy at work.  But "fairness" has no place in the conversation as far as I am concerned.

About the comparison to The Challenge I saw in an article on this topic:

The Challenge takes place over four to six weeks of filming.  That is a significant disruption to people's lives if they make it to the end, and, even if they don't, they still have to give their boss a nebulous timeline when they ask for time off work.  The appearance fee pays enough to cover that disruption with maybe a little extra left over for the rookies, and the vets know their value in drawing fans so they can negotiate more.  How many days out of their lives does ANW take total for the actual filming?  Two weekends?  You don't even need to use up vacation days for that.  The idea that people should be paid for the time they spend training to support their hobby is just dumb.  Be glad you have extra motivation to live a healthy lifestyle and leave it at that.

[realdancemom]

Thanks for the article link.  I don't think competitors should get anything for just showing up.  I do think that the finals could be set up so that the top five finishers get some cash.  The show can make it up by not giving all the cash to the first place finisher even if that person gets most of it.

[Chaos Theory]

"Fair" is a dubious term in itself and really not relevant.   My issue is that the rules need to be more specific and payout better or NBC will actually lose out in the long run.  I watched bits and peices of the Father's Day special last night and while two people finished only one made any money.  You can say that's not fair....I say that's not smart.  I think NBC needs to clarify the rules and payout those who complete obsicals better.   One person can win the lions share but when two people make it to the finish line both should walk away with something.

[Morgan of Hed]

According to this ama from Ryan Strattis, the contestants are on their own for regionals but get expenses paid for Vegas.

[Terri8502]

Does anyone know how the contestants are picked for USA versus the World? There are so many good athletes, is it a random draw of the top winners or something?