Babylon 5 - General Discussion

[Morrigan2575]

18 minutes ago, ketose said:

As far as the Shadows and the Vorlons, in the JMS universe, altruism seems to be in short supply. Both races kind of remind me of Randolph and Mortimer Duke in "Trading Places" when they made a $1 bet as to whether nature or nurture was more important for success. The Shadows and Vorlons made a bet. They helped whomever they needed to prove they were right, and they manipulated and killed whomever they needed to prove they were right.

Excellent! This is so perfect

[ketose]

Wow. I'm watching "The Paragon of Animals" (S5E3) and I forgot what a pretentious douchebag Byron was. 

[ganesh]

How could you forget? Willlloooooowwww. DON'T SIT IN THE CHAIR! 

The actor who played Byron voiced a character in the video game Knights of the Old Republic II. You're supposed to work with him and turn him into a jedi (sith - I played darkside), but I refused to play with him because all I could say was 'shut up Byron' every time he talked. 

[Joe]

34 minutes ago, ganesh said:

How could you forget? Willlloooooowwww. DON'T SIT IN THE CHAIR! 

The actor who played Byron voiced a character in the video game Knights of the Old Republic II. You're supposed to work with him and turn him into a jedi (sith - I played darkside), but I refused to play with him because all I could say was 'shut up Byron' every time he talked. 

Robin Atkin Downes only voiced minor characters in KOTOR II. None of the party companions. You might be thinking of Bao-Dur or the Disciple, both of whom were annoying. But not Downes.

[ganesh]

Whatever it was still Byron

[ProfCrash]

I almost think we would have been better off without season 5. I mean, it was another season but we got Lochley, the ridiculous marriage/divorce between Lochley and Sheridan, Byran, the telepath stupidity, Garibaldi's weird fall into alcoholism (that kind of made sense but kind of didn't), Lennier acting out of character and that is about it. I am trying to think of a plot line that I actually cared about. The only episodes I think of fondly are the last few episodes where they started wrapping up the final character stories from the main characters.

OK, so the Londo/G'Kar stuff was good.

But I will never be able to remove the bad taste left in my mouth from Bryon and the stupidity of the telepath storyline. I am almost glad that Ivanova was gone because I fear how she would have been tied into that ridiculousness. Then again, Ivanova would have meant no Lochley and some interesting plot points between Garibaldi and Ivanova.

[ganesh]

The whole point of kicking out the Shadows and Vorlon was that everyone could take care of themselves. So S5 was largely over that theme. Byron was the wrong choice for the telepath plot, but the claim that because the Vorlon created them for their squabble with the Shadows and now they want something for it, isn't really that wrong. I never understood why their request for their own homeworld was met with such outrage. They wanted to be left alone and get away from everyone. "Um, ok. We'll find you one, but it's going to take some time. Can you dial it down with the willow and chairs in the meantime?" I don't get why Byron threw a fit about it either. This seemed like it should have been way way easier to deal with. 

[ProfCrash]

I don't think the telepaths would have been as much as a plot point if the series hadn't wrapped up the Shadow/Vorlon war and the civil wars in season 4. I also think it would have included Ivanova, given that she was a latent telepath, which could have been interesting.

I suspect that part of season 5 would have been spent addressing the end of the Earth and Minbari Civil Wars, the setting up of the new Alliance, and the Telepaths would have been a B story. We would have seen more of the Ivanova and Garibaldi interaction. I suspect that Ivanova would not have been as willing to forgive Garibaldi as Sheridan was, that would have been interesting to see play out.

[ganesh]

My recollection of the original treatment isn't so strong anymore, but that sounds like what was intended. 

[starri]

7 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I suspect that part of season 5 would have been spent addressing the end of the Earth and Minbari Civil Wars, the setting up of the new Alliance, and the Telepaths would have been a B story.

I think the original plan was to have S4 end after Sheridan was captured.  Unless it was severely compressed, the Minbari conflict ended a few episodes before.

Even worse than Byron for me was the Mack and Bo episode.  

[ganesh]

That sounds right. 

[SVNBob]

The story as far as I recall was that B5 wasn't originally renewed or picked up or something for 2 seasons at the end of season 3, but for only 1.  And since he had the end of the story already in mind, JMS compressed his original plans for both seasons 4 and 5 into what became S4, and the story would have ended there.

But then it got picked up again very near the end of S4.  So JMS had to write a 5th season again, even though he'd already included most of his original plans in the compression.  That's why there's the new characters and all the additional strangeness that doesn't really fit as much with the previous stories.

[ProfCrash]

It got picked up after the actors contracts had expired. That is why Claudia Christian was not in season 5. All of the actors agreed to accept their old contracts if the show was picked up, including Claudia. When the show was picked up, all the actors signed the new contracts, which were the same as their old contacts, except Claudia. She tried to renegotiate the contract. JMS said no because everyone else accepted the old contracts and it wouldn't be fair to renegotiate hers. They had already shot the series finale, which is why Claudia was in the finale, and held the show is over party when TNT stepped in.

Like I said, I almost would have preferred that they just not shot the fifth season. About 1/3 of the episodes in Season 5 worked for me, and they were mainly at the end or included G'Kar and Londo. The rest were pretty painful.

[starri]

I have an appreciation for "Day of the Dead," which apart from the finale is the only episode from that season I've ever intentionally rewatched.

[ketose]

On 1/7/2019 at 9:55 AM, ProfCrash said:

I almost think we would have been better off without season 5. I mean, it was another season but we got Lochley, the ridiculous marriage/divorce between Lochley and Sheridan, Byran, the telepath stupidity, Garibaldi's weird fall into alcoholism (that kind of made sense but kind of didn't), Lennier acting out of character and that is about it. I am trying to think of a plot line that I actually cared about. The only episodes I think of fondly are the last few episodes where they started wrapping up the final character stories from the main characters.

OK, so the Londo/G'Kar stuff was good.

But I will never be able to remove the bad taste left in my mouth from Bryon and the stupidity of the telepath storyline. I am almost glad that Ivanova was gone because I fear how she would have been tied into that ridiculousness. Then again, Ivanova would have meant no Lochley and some interesting plot points between Garibaldi and Ivanova.

The Lochley thing was kind of patched together, but so was Sheridan when Michael O'Hare left. The secret marriage thing was ridiculous, though. Was there seriously no record of this? Or how about all the fellow Earthforce members who knew Lochley and Sheridan back then?

Garibaldi's alcoholism and Lennier's fatal attraction to Delenn at least called back to things earlier in the series. The Garibaldi stuff and "Day of the Dead" gave us some insight into Lochley's history.

I thought the stuff with Mac and Bo was a little clunky, but I appreciated the idea of doing something different.

When I originally watched this, I always read about a triple-encrypted file and a five year arc. The reality is that JMS had an outline that could have gone even longer where Delenn and Sinclair would be married and travel through time in Babylon 4. Obviously, Season 5 changed based on what was going on at the time of production. The last season was mediocre B5, but even that is better than most scifi.

Plus, Byron literally died in a fire. Talk about fan service.

[ganesh]

No that's not true. I'm the original treatment, Sinclair still took B4 back and was Valen but at the end of the series. Sheridan was always there but at the flagship captain while Sinclair commanded the shadow war from B5. They had an S1 episode establishing the commander of B5 as the ranking military officer in the sector to that end. 

Much of the original made it to the show. JMS had built in trap doors in case real life screwed things up. Like making Talia the mole. 

[ketose]

This is what I was going by. I don't even think think claim JMS would claim he created an immutable story from day 1. Even if true, real life threw up more trap doors than he had written in.

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/synopsis-of-jmss-synopsis-of-the-original-arc-for-b5-spoilers.53739/

[starri]

Honestly, even though after 25 years have made me more aware of B5's flaws--to be clear, I did and do like it--what we got seems better than that.

I will say, if nothing else, a reboot in 2019 would probably find his original plan to have Delenn change gender would be a bit more acceptable to the audience.

Quote

Catherine Sakai is “mind-raped”, and all memory of her relationship with Sinclair is erased, and this crushes Sinclair. 

What a lovely fridge Straczynski build for her. 

[ketose]

16 minutes ago, starri said:

Honestly, even though after 25 years have made me more aware of B5's flaws--to be clear, I did and do like it--what we got seems better than that.

I will say, if nothing else, a reboot in 2019 would probably find his original plan to have Delenn change gender would be a bit more acceptable to the audience.

What a lovely fridge Straczynski build for her. 

And disturbingly similar to the finale of "Chuck."

[starri]

I also think it's interesting that there was no mention of a civil war amongst the Earth Alliance and its colonies.  While the slow reveal of the Shadow War was a great mystery, the sum total actually kind of underwhelms me in hindsight.  Sheridan's war to reclaim Earth is far more interesting.

[starri]

On 1/9/2019 at 11:29 PM, ketose said:

I thought the stuff with Mac and Bo was a little clunky, but I appreciated the idea of doing something different.

I like the idea of experimenting.  "And Now For a Word" was an interesting idea, even if didn't entirely come together in the end.  "Illusion of Truth" was quite good, and I've already said I like "Day of the Dead."  I suppose "View from the Gallery" could have worked, but I found Mac and Bo incredibly annoying, although I'm not sure if it was the writing, the actors, or both.  "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" is the most ridiculous, boring, navel-gazing bullshit imaginable.  And the S5 Psy Corps and Rangers episodes are also aggressively mediocre.

Rewatching the series, I'm struck by how many of the one-off episodes aren't that great.  I am thoroughly entertained by the majority of the big arc episodes, but I've come across episodes I haven't seen before which are...not great.  And also ones that are, in fairness.

ETA:  I had no idea that a few years ago Straczynki revealed the real reason for Michael O'Hare's departure.  Apparently, he was undergoing some kind of psychosis.  They were willing to hold production for him to get treatment, but the reality was Warner Bros would have ended up canceling the show.  Straczynski told O'Hare he'd take the truth to his grave, but O'Hare said it was okay to talk about it after HE died, because he figured the story might help people.

[ketose]

On 1/13/2019 at 10:37 AM, starri said:

I like the idea of experimenting.  "And Now For a Word" was an interesting idea, even if didn't entirely come together in the end.  "Illusion of Truth" was quite good, and I've already said I like "Day of the Dead."  I suppose "View from the Gallery" could have worked, but I found Mac and Bo incredibly annoying, although I'm not sure if it was the writing, the actors, or both.  "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" is the most ridiculous, boring, navel-gazing bullshit imaginable.  And the S5 Psy Corps and Rangers episodes are also aggressively mediocre.

Rewatching the series, I'm struck by how many of the one-off episodes aren't that great.  I am thoroughly entertained by the majority of the big arc episodes, but I've come across episodes I haven't seen before which are...not great.  And also ones that are, in fairness.

ETA:  I had no idea that a few years ago Straczynki revealed the real reason for Michael O'Hare's departure.  Apparently, he was undergoing some kind of psychosis.  They were willing to hold production for him to get treatment, but the reality was Warner Bros would have ended up canceling the show.  Straczynski told O'Hare he'd take the truth to his grave, but O'Hare said it was okay to talk about it after HE died, because he figured the story might help people.

Ouch. I liked "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" more than "Sleeping in Light." However, after watching it recently, it could have more substance. Then again, the show was thrown together after they shelved "Sleeping in Light" due to the renewal for Season 5.

I think O'Hare wanted to be an example / cautionary tale, but he was also trying to get work, so he wanted it kept a secret until he died.

[starri]

5 minutes ago, ketose said:

Ouch. I liked "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" more than "Sleeping in Light." However, after watching it recently, it could have more substance. Then again, the show was thrown together after they shelved "Sleeping in Light" due to the renewal for Season 5.

"Sleeping in Light" is fine for what it is, just a coda on the journeys that all of the characters have gone on.  I think it could have used a bit more time to set up where all the characters had been since the end of the series--we only really know about Garibaldi and Vir.  It also hurts for the lack of Londo and G'Kar, although that's unavoidable.  Although Vir's speech about Londo thinking that the Pak'ma'rah sing with God's voice almost makes up for it.

"Deconstruction" is...it sets up nothing and resolves nothing.  It just feels self-congratulatory in a really unearned way.

[ganesh]

Deconstruction is based (stylistically) on the book, the Canticle for Leibowitz, so it might help to get a little more out of the show after reading that. 

Come on though, the Garibaldi robot was awesome. 

[ParadoxLost]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:29 PM, ganesh said:

Come on though, the Garibaldi robot was awesome. 

The two things I liked most about that episode:

that even virtual Garibaldi will outwit those with nefarious intentions

the look on Delenn's face when that academic pundits decided he wanted to get the last word in after she delivered her Sheridan was a good man speech

Edited January 16, 2019 by ParadoxLost

[starri]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:29 PM, ganesh said:

Deconstruction is based (stylistically) on the book, the Canticle for Leibowitz, so it might help to get a little more out of the show after reading that. 

I know and I have, but I feel that a piece of media should be able to stand on its own.

[ganesh]

I thought it did. It's something you can only do once but they pulled it off. I added the info about the book for interest. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎19‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:15 PM, ProfCrash said:

I think that the followers of both sides bought that they were special to have been chosen and saw benefits from the arrangements. God knows Londo did when he first worked with Morden. 

Yeah, a good theory, they were selected by a higher power. Some of the worst atrocities in history were committed by those who felt 'special'.

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:07 AM, ketose said:

I was watching Endgame and something came to me. Watching the planetary defense system missile ports open and Sheridan calling for "ramming speed" as a last resort, I was reminded of the end of "The Last Starfighter" when all the gunports opened up and shop up the Ko-dan armada, followed by the commander of the ship calling for ramming speed to take out the gunship with Alex. I was mostly able to pick that up because I was watching the DVD recently.

You make a good point but I think Horatio Hornblower did the same. 

On ‎28‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 4:36 PM, ganesh said:

The vorlon were worse because they created telepaths and have us Byron. 

But they also have us Lyta and Talia (and Bester). Who do you blame for Marcus?

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎07‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 2:55 PM, ProfCrash said:

I almost think we would have been better off without season 5. I mean, it was another season but we got Lochley, the ridiculous marriage/divorce between Lochley and Sheridan, Byran, the telepath stupidity, Garibaldi's weird fall into alcoholism (that kind of made sense but kind of didn't), Lennier acting out of character and that is about it. I am trying to think of a plot line that I actually cared about. The only episodes I think of fondly are the last few episodes where they started wrapping up the final character stories from the main characters.

OK, so the Londo/G'Kar stuff was good.

But I will never be able to remove the bad taste left in my mouth from Bryon and the stupidity of the telepath storyline. I am almost glad that Ivanova was gone because I fear how she would have been tied into that ridiculousness. Then again, Ivanova would have meant no Lochley and some interesting plot points between Garibaldi and Ivanova.

For Lochley alone s5 is welcome, Tracey Scoggins rules!

On ‎12‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 12:24 AM, starri said:

Honestly, even though after 25 years have made me more aware of B5's flaws--to be clear, I did and do like it--what we got seems better than that.

I will say, if nothing else, a reboot in 2019 would probably find his original plan to have Delenn change gender would be a bit more acceptable to the audience.

What a lovely fridge Straczynski build for her. 

If they did do a remake would they keep Sinclair?

[Joe Hellandback]

And Now for a Word...

We start having little hints of the bias of the press which will become much more apparent in the later ep which also uses a similar format, the creeping authoritarianism. It's an interesting parallel with today and indeed the 90s, with the Cold War over many in the US wanted to withdraw from world affairs and 'bring the troops home' (the 'peace dividend'). It was a nice touch that the Senator they show is actually very reasonable, it would have been easy to represent him as the bad guy or typical slimy politician but you see his point of view.  How old is G'Kar in human years? The Psycop ad is utterly hilarious, shame they couldn't have used Bester for it.  The confrontation between the Centuri and the Narn warships is awesome with many historical parallels. I would have liked Delenn to have been a little more assertive in her interview, when the reporter tells her that her half human status is an insult to the families of the war dead she should have replied "The families of the war dead on my side say the same thing, I've taken this shape in order to prevent any more conflicts". Also got to love Londo's shameless pandering to humanity, trying to point out all of the similarities between the Centuri and humans in order to win them over. Equally why didn't Sheridan point out that Babylon 5 was not only a diplomatic/trading centre but also an advanced military post for Earthforce, it has a strategic value. Love the interview with the bridge officer wondering what to say with Ivanova hovering over his shoulder in the background. Plus of course Ivanova's one word answer as to whether B5 was worth it. Also love Garabaldi's weary cop reaction to the world, that every day he wakes up and silently prays that nothing will happen.     Not an earthshaker but enjoyable enough. 7/10

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, Joe Hellandback said:

If they did do a remake would they keep Sinclair?

Yes. Sinclair was always the lead and was suppose to be the lead for 3 seasons. Sinclair left earlier only because of Michael O'Hare's illness.

[starri]

I wonder if in that circumstance they'd make Sheridan a woman, since there wouldn't be an Ivanova.  

[ProfCrash]

Why wouldn't there be an Ivanova:? Because of Laurel? I think Laurel was suppose to go in the second season (maybe the first), she was suppose to have the Talia implanted personality, which would have brought in Ivanova. The implanted personality was moved to Talia so Talia could be written out when the actress wanted to leave the show because Laurel was only seen in the pilot.

[starri]

If I remember the original plan, Sheridan was going to be the captain of a ship that was attached to B5, and would slowly step into the XO role when Takishema was revealed as Control. Sheridan was the one who was supposed to draw Sinclair into General Hague’s group. I assume had O’Hare not been forced to leave, Ivanova would have filled that role. 

[ProfCrash]

I never saw the original plan, so I am not 100% sure. What I know about the Talia/Laurel plot switch is from JMS's comments, see below.  JMS planned for this to happen in the second season.  Laurel was meant to shoot Garibaldi and that happened at the end of season one. Laurel was going to be revealed in season 2 and Ivanova would step into Laurel's role. Sinclair would have still been on the station based on what I know from the original plan, before O'Hare was diagnosed with his illness and left the show. So Ivanova would have been Laurel's second, meaning Sinclair would know Ivanova and have some interaction with her. The quotes below are JMS quotes.

 http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/041.html

Quote

Mike: your assessment is pretty much correct. Laurel was to be the traitor initially; as I noted long, long time ago, and you quoted, she was not, in fact, acting entirely under her own volition. There would indeed have been an implanted personality there, acting without even her knowing about it. And it would've been this implanted personality that would've shot Garibaldi.

When I took Laurel off the board, elements of this were transferred to other characters. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say that even with changes here and there, the story continues to go where I want it to go. We don't necessarily remember *which* general put the briefcase with a bomb next to Hitler's chair in the bunker, only that it got done. Some chairs are moveable, some are not, as anyone who's ever written a novel from an outline can tell you...you start moving the chairs around, but you always keep going where you're going.

Quote

If Laurel *had* stayed with the show, by the middle of year two the fact that she was Control would've been revealed via the password incident. At that point, one particular possibility was that her second in command under her -- a rather dour Russian lieutenant named Ivanova -- would've been promoted to take her place, while Laurel was moved off the chessboard. (This was planned because we knew going in that Tamlyn Tomita had a growing film career, and we probably could've only kept her for a couple of years in the best of circumstances. So why not turn that to your advantage?)

The position now being occupied by Corwin, Ivanova's second, is the position that Ivanova would've held (though more prominently) if Laurel had stayed on. (And no, Corwin doesn't now have that arc lurking in the background.)

See, it's easy to stick to an outline and never diverge if you're writing characters in a novel; in a TV show, with live actors, you have to be flexible, plan ahead, come up with contingency plans, and have threads that weave and interlock in ways to leave you maximum flexibility while still proceeding toward your destination.

Takashima would have been the one to be Control. A Psi Corps plant. (Her background on Mars would've been the perfect time for it to have happened.) When Laurel went away, I took that one thread and passed it along to Talia, setting it up as early as the very first episode, when Talia and Ivanova first meet, and later reluctantly have a drink.

At one point, Ivanova says to Talia, referencing Ivanova's mother, "You're as much of a victim as she was." To which Talia replies, "I don't feel like a victim." And, of course, that's exactly what she was, though she didn't know it yet. Ivanova's analysis was 100% correct.

 

[ganesh]

Sheridan would have been captain of the flagship. He wasn't ever meant to be stationed at B5. 

[starri]

I just feel like I've heard so many versions of The Plan that it's hard to remember it all.  I mean, I admire his ability to get himself out of corners.

[ProfCrash]

2 hours ago, starri said:

I just feel like I've heard so many versions of The Plan that it's hard to remember it all.  I mean, I admire his ability to get himself out of corners.

I just go off what I read at Lukers. Those are all comments he made as the show was airing and in direct response to peoples questions and the like. I didn’t buy the script books that were soldafter the show ended and have not seen much from those books so I am not sure what JMS said after the show aired. 

[ganesh]

The point is that if they rebooted with the original treatment it would be quite different enough to engage a lot of people. 

[ProfCrash]

8 hours ago, ganesh said:

The point is that if they rebooted with the original treatment it would be quite different enough to engage a lot of people. 

100% and I would have no problem with that.

[starri]

I wonder what else they'd change.  They could obviously more explicit with the LGBT content (2019 has a way of forgetting that 1997's suggestion that two men could get married was mind-blowing).  I'd actually kind of like G'Kar to be gay.  Rewatching the show now, I find myself surprised by how...ahem...flamboyant he is.

I think the contemporary trend toward shorter seasons would be a positive and a negative.  Obviously, there'd be less filler, but watching mysteries unfurl slowly was part of the fun.

[ganesh]

They could do 13 to 15. Or 10 episode seasons for 8 years. The Walking Dead basically does 10+10 over a year. 

[SVNBob]

4 hours ago, starri said:

They could obviously more explicit with the LGBT content (2019 has a way of forgetting that 1997's suggestion that two men could get married was mind-blowing).  I'd actually kind of like G'Kar to be gay

G'Kar as gay doesn't feel right.  But G'Kar as bi- and/or pan-sexual ...now that feels better.  Think a toned down Captain Jack Harkness.  He'd no longer be just a womanizer, but instead be flirting (or more) with practically everyone, except Londo of course.

 

Vir does strike me as gay though.  Though that may be an artifact of Furst's portrayal.

[starri]

5 hours ago, SVNBob said:

He'd no longer be just a womanizer, but instead be flirting (or more) with practically everyone, except Londo of course.

I could see him flirting with Londo just to throw the latter off his game.

I rewatched "The Coming of Shadows" recently, and I had forgotten how much G'Kar's anguish hurt.  It really puts the character he had been leading up to the new war in context.  I know he eventually told Londo that even though the Narn would likely never forgive the Centauri, he had forgiven Londo, and frankly, I don't know if I could do something like that.

[SVNBob]

4 hours ago, starri said:

I could see him flirting with Londo just to throw the latter off his game.

Now that you say it...I can see that too.  At least until the war starts again.

[ganesh]

14 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Think a toned down Captain Jack Harkness.

One does not simply "tone down" Captain Jack. 

[starri]

Watching "Acts of Sacrifice" with 2019 eyes, the scene with the Lumati representative is really cringe-y.  17-year-old me probably thought it was funny, 40-year-old me is vaguely offended and REALLY embarrassed for Claudia Christian.  She was really a trooper.

Also, Franklin telling her, even as a joke, "put a bag over his head and do it for Babylon 5" is gross.

[Joe]

I don't remember being amused the first time I watched it, but I've never liked cringe 'comedy'.

[starri]

I have to wonder if it's better or worse than Vir's "We have six" scene.

I have many thoughts about the way B5 didn't deal with gender issues.  I honestly can't think of a single scene that's just between two women from any point after Talia left.  I can't remember a single female Minbari other than Delenn.  Zero female Rangers.  One female Psi Cop.  Maybe two female EarthForce members that weren't Ivanova or Lochley.  And Na'Toth was only recast in S2 because they needed G'Kar to have someone to talk to in a few episodes.

In fairness, I did like Number One and really loved the ISN anchorwoman who needed a minute to compose herself when she was able to go back on the air once Clarke was overthrown.

[John Potts]

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 2:14 AM, starri said:

1997's suggestion that two men could get married was mind-blowing

One of the funniest scenes (IMO) was Marcus & Stephen bickering about their wedding ("And that, your Honour, is when I killed him")!