Chuck: Capricious God

[catrox14]

Let's discuss Chuck/God/Chod/Guck.

Thought we needed a Chuck thread since you know, he's God and all.

If you want a different thread title post your suggestions  here and we can vote unless you're cool with this one.

[catrox14]

So I was just in the 11.21 episode thread and the discussion is how can God be lying or why would he lie.

I'm thinking maybe Chod is not Actual!God at all. That he's God's doppelganger who is doing the dirty work that God can't or wont. Lying, manipulating etc etc. That he's so well replicated that only Amara would be able to suss out that he's not actual!God. Again this is just my spec. But it sure would answer a LOT for me

[MysteryGuest]

I don't know.  As much as I didn't want Chuck to be God, I don't really see how they go back on it now.  Metatron recognized him, and Amara could sense him all over Dean.  Plus I would like to think that the show runners would not mess with the canon to make this God story work, and then just yank it all back like an April Fool's joke.  I think we're stuck with God being God, but so far at least, he's nothing to write home about.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know.  As much as I didn't want Chuck to be God, I don't really see how they go back on it now.  Metatron recognized him, and Amara could sense him all over Dean.  Plus I would like to think that the show runners would not mess with the canon to make this God story work, and then just yank it all back like an April Fool's joke.  I think we're stuck with God being God, but so far at least, he's nothing to write home about.

 

Sorry a little BSG nerding out ahead.

Cylons were virtually undetectable and indistinguishable from humans. (Sigh I miss BSG. Screw you Netflix from dropping my favorite show ever. But I digress).

--Chuck is the one that brought Metatron into the fold.

--Metatron didn't know it was Chuck until Chuck lit up like a glowstick.

--Chuck is the one that turned the amulet back into Sam's pocket so the boys would find it and follow him. 

--Chuck presented Kevin, who's only purpose was to convince the boys to trust Chuck.

--If Amara has truly warded herself from God then IMO she shouldn't have been able to detect that Dean had been in contact with God.(also since Chuck touched Dean does that make Dean a Hand of God?) Was Amara really detecting actual!Gods touch on Dean's shoulder OR that she read Dean's mind just enough to to "hear" Dean thinking about the person he met that says he's God?

If Chuck is a doppelganger he can lie and not care. He would just analyze and make proclamations like "Don't confuse me with your dad" or Sam started the Apocalpyse with no nuance. Maybe that's why Lucifer said that Chuck had changed and why Chuck looked at him so strangely and sternly as though he was trying to stop Lucifer from saying more. (that's my interpretation).

I dunno, I'm kind of really leaning towards Chod is God's doppleganger. And it would also explain why Chuck could handle God's power. 

I would actually be impressed if the writers pulled that off. But because it seems cool to me, it's probably not gonna happen. LOL

[MysteryGuest]

I don't believe that Amara has warded herself against God, which is why I think he's a big liar.  I know I'm going to sound like an idiot, but what is BSG?  I'm really not much of a TV watcher, so I haven't a clue what the acronym stands for.

I also think it would be another giant "screw you" to Sam and Dean if this isn't the real God.  He's messed with them enough, and that would really be unfair if he tricked them again.  But I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[BlueMeanie]

I think he has to be lying about Amara warding herself against him.  She's been trying to get God to show himself to her for a long time and in the latest episode was torturing Lucifer to get him to come to her.  Why would she ward herself against him if she wants to confront him?

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, BlueMeanie said:

I think he has to be lying about Amara warding herself against him.  She's been trying to get God to show himself to her for a long time and in the latest episode was torturing Lucifer to get him to come to her.  Why would she ward herself against him if she wants to confront him?

He's totally lying.  Here's the list of what I think are lies, sins of omission, obfuscation, misdirection or manipulation:

1) Lie: That he doesn't know where Amara is - yes he does. He doesn't want to go head to head with Amara till he gets his ducks in line (the boys and other allies). Evidence: Her entire campaign in the last 11 episodes has been to get God's attention. She WANTS a power confrontation.  Girl's gotta lotta rage issues, she wants to throw some of that around.  And she thinks she can take God.  She said so. And his response was "in time" when it came to finding Amara.  And what happened that night? The Prophet Donatello is called and he twigs onto where Amara is.

2) Omission: He called the Prophet Donatello.  He reverse whatever switch was set in Heaven by Metatron, sent Kevin up out of the veil, and IMO likely triggered the guy with the lightening bolt.  Which means he may have sent the fart cloud.  Which means he killed a few thousand in Lewis, OK to get a convenient prophet call up.  Evidence: timing of Kevin going up and Donatello being called.  Chuck didn't out and out lie, he just said "neato". 

3) Lie/Misdirection/Manipulation: He doesn't want to work with Lucifer.  Oh hell no, he wants Lucy on board. But he's not going to go rescue the shithead.  He's going to let Sam and Dean do the dirty work. Maybe that way, by having humans rescue Lucifer, it knocks Lucifer down a couple of pages (because Sam did the preliminaries of setting the terms ... 'stow your shit and get on board').   Evidence: It seemed like a pretty staged performance when he shut them down in the first place, plus he threw shade at them for letting Luci out again -- putting them on the defensive and feeling they have to take action.  And then he pulled off the last minute rescue, knowing precisely where they were.  Did YOU see anyone calling out to him?  I didn't.  He had them on his radar the whole time.  Remember, this God "was aware" of everything that went down.  He's omniscient in the SPN universe.  He either intervenes or lets things happen.  So, they planned the caper in the bunker - why wouldn't he know what was going on?   He didn't stop them.  He got what he wanted at the end, a rescued Lucifer, standing before his Father, essentially ASKING to participate.  Deftly done. 

4) Misdirection: That he saved Dean or Sam & Dean all those years ago to be the firewall between the Dark and Light.  No.... he saved them (put them on the plane) because Luci was about to squish them and he didn't want the Apocalypse to succeed.  He's just using that now to soften Dean up for whatever role he wants Dean to play in the Amara resolution. Evidence: S5 Swan Song epilogue - it was a "test" and Sam and Dean passed.  God is just retconning his own intervention to repurpose it to motivate the boys.

5) Manipulation: That he's going to sacrifice himself to save his universe.  God is not stupid. That's not enough for Amara.  But he needs Dean to think he's willing to do that.  So when Dean has to make a big move, Dean isn't looking at God and wondering why HE didn't make the sacrifice.  Again, softening the mental battlefield he's going to put Dean through IMO.  Evidence: He left the manuscript with Metatron - loose lips indeed.  If he didn't want Metatron blabbing, he would have sent him off to some hole to fester in.  And he knows she's pissed.  Plus, he immediately talked about Plan B (humanity and the chosen stepping up).  Plan A (sole self-sacrifice by God) is just preamble to the main event IMO.

6) Manipulation: Get the boys on board with the Dean sacrifice. He praises Sam for his faith in Him.  He states he's there to take care of the Amara problem - which is just what Sam has been praying for.  He saved Sam from dying.  So, Sam's thinking God's here to solve the problem.  OTOH, Dean, who is mistrustful, he needles.  He needles him with shade comments, old folks songs in the shower, wearing his robe, and invading his privacy.  Why?  Because he knows Dean thinks he's a dick.  And he wants Dean to step up and take him on regarding solving the Amara problem.  He's setting Dean up IMO to come up with his own solution because he thinks God's plan isn't going to get the job done. Evidence: Why go out of his way to annoy Dean?  What headspace is he putting Dean (and Sam) into at this time with these actions.  It's possible he's just needling Dean because Dean hassled him, but I think he's got a bigger plan.

 

So.... Chuck, the master strategist, is playing the boys. Big Time IMO.  I think his objective is to save the universe, but I think he doesn't believe a direct approach will work. So he's manipulating them.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

... but what is BSG?  I'm really not much of a TV watcher, so I haven't a clue what the acronym stands for.

 

BSG = Battlestar Galactica. Even though I must admit that I did not watch the show. Heh. At the time of Battlestar Galactica, I was watching the last seasons of Buffy along with Angel with a side of Crossing Jordan and then Supernatural. And typically, I only do one obsessive show at a time* - though at present I am also enjoying The Walking Dead, but that is something unusual for me (and I'm not as obsessive about that show).

* Which is why I missed Firefly in its original run and only caught it because my online Buffy buddies got me into it.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

know I'm going to sound like an idiot, but what is BSG?

Sorry, Battlestar Galactica 2003

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

15 hours ago, catrox14 said:

--Metatron didn't know it was Chuck until Chuck lit up like a glowstick

That's because Metatron is human now.

Edited May 17, 2016 by MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND
uh spelling

[Actualized Peggy]

To be fair, though, I'm pretty sure that God can conceal his identity in front of even the most powerful angels if he feels like it....

SueB, I truly love your analysis, but I'm not quite sure I have enough faith in the writers to pull this off. I hope I'm wrong, though, because that is Machiavellic enough to make for a great finally.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, SueB said:

He's totally lying.  Here's the list of what I think are lies, sins of omission, obfuscation, misdirection or manipulation:

[...]

So.... Chuck, the master strategist, is playing the boys. Big Time IMO.  I think his objective is to save the universe, but I think he doesn't believe a direct approach will work. So he's manipulating them.

I agree he's the master strategist here and manipulating things--he's God, so it's kinda in the job description--but I'm not sure he's lying. I think he's just not telling the whole truth. 

[SueB]

The only direct lie (IMO) is not knowing where Amara is and that "she's warded herself specifically against me." Not that's potentially an Obi-Wan "from a certain point of view" kind of lie.  From Chuck/God's perspective, perhaps he DOESN'T know precisely where she is at because they are not of the same type of power - so he can't just pop over there.  Instead he initiates Donatello, who CAN find her specific location.  But that's not how he implies it.  He's says "what have you come up with", like he doesn't know HOW to proceed.  From Chuck/God's point of view, he has a WAY to find her, but he first wants to have Sam and Dean use their resources.  When they don't have anything, he triggers Donatello. 

So... from a certain point of view, he doesn't know precisely where she's at.... but he withholds from them that if Donatello comes off the bench, they can find her.  And he doesn't tell them that he made Donatello come off the bench.  They/we theorize that it could be Amara or it could be a byproduct of Kevin going up.  BUT... who picked Donatello's town to get the fart cloud?  Who MADE the fart cloud?  It seems illogical that Amara would want Donatello around.  I'm reminded of Dean's "accidents just don't happen accidentally".  Donatello provides a solution to "Where's Amara?"  It's what the boys/Chuck needed.  I'm sensing His hand in it. I'm seriously thinking he made the fart cloud or re-directed one of her fart clouds to Donatello's town. 

Edited May 17, 2016 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

That's precisely why I said, "not telling the whole truth." He's just got everyone on a need-to-know basis right now. IMO, Chuck is just kinda hangin' out right now and waiting for the final pieces to fall into place, but also keeping the Winchesters preoccupied with busy work. I imagine it's to keep them from putting their signature wrench in His works in the end.

[catrox14]

Chuck is a self-professed lying liar. 

Quote

Ahh. You know, I lied before. I didn't really learn to play guitar. I just kind of... gave myself the ability. I did the same when I “learned” French. Man, this whole honesty thing -- it's really freeing.

If he lies about something as small as learning the guitar and French, then he'll lie about something big.

You know something else doesn't make any sense.

Amara went through Cas to talk to Dean and she said basically it's Chuck's fault that Cas is being hurt. She says " I just thought you should know that". Okay why the hell would she tell him that, unless she KNEW that Dean was somehow in the presence of Chuck. Because we know Dean couldn't do anything to stop save Cas and clearly she had to have some inkling that Chuck was around otherwise what was it going get her to tell Dean that?  She wanted Dean to tell Chuck to show up because she used Dean's love for Cas to get him to talk to Chuck.

Naw, son. Amara and God are both assholes and they are using Dean in their little Game of Thrones.

I hope Dean tells both Amara and God to fuck off and then he gets some kind of warding spell from Rowena and he hops in Baby and drives to fucking Mazatlan or Cancun and gives them all a new version of his speech in Yellow Fever only this time he's not leaving because he's afraid but because he's done with the angels, and the demons and the apocalpyse 2.0. 

I really want him to be all "Fuck all y'all. Chuck this is your mess you made a billion years ago. I bore your damn Mark that held your sister back. I might not have known it at the time and was turned into a damn demon for my troubles but guess what, Chuck. I did my job. NOW YOU DO YOURS."

"Sam, Cas, I love you both but I'm done. You made this mess when I told you not to do it. You guys fix it. I'm out " 

" Rowena you fucking owe me ONE thing and that's a spell that wards me, my car and my gun from Chuck and Amara and Sam and Cas"

Just leave them all behind, Dean. You call Donna, and tell her to meet you in Cancun.  And have all the donuts and beer and taquitos in bed until the end of time.

Actually, I'm kind of hoping that's how the season ends. Dean just peaces out on ALL of them.

[sarthaz]

Does God explicitly say he was Chuck the whole time?  Or is it just implied from all his talk with Metatron about "writing" the books?

[DittyDotDot]

Maybe not explicitly, but how he talked about doing great things as Chuck, starting with writing the books, suggests he may have been Chuck when Sam and Dean first meet him. Based on interviews and commentaries, I personally don't think that's what they intended back when they did Monster at the End of This Book, but not sure that it doesn't work either. All depends on your perspective and how attached you are to the idea of Chuck being God or not.

[sarthaz]

I ask, because there's no way it works for God to be Chuck the whole time.  I know a lot of people have complained about this (and rightly so if it were true), but I took it to mean that God "wrote" the books and did great things through Chuck in his form as prophet, and only took over for realzies during Swan Song.  At least that's the only possible way it works.  Just trying to figure out if the writers are in synch with my headcanon or not.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, that's my theory too, @sarthaz, but I think the writers intended to say Chuck has always been God. That's just a feeling, though. Like I said, I don't remember it being said explicitly.

However, as I said in the episode thread, just because these yahoos say something, doesn't mean I have to believe it.

[MysteryGuest]

God even admitted to dating, as a quick way to explain Chuck's dating Becky the uber fan.  I don't think for a minute that Chuck was God in TMATEOTB.  That wasn't even on the writer's radar at the time.  But by the end of season 5, they apparently decided they wanted to go there for what might have been the last episode of the series.  Then we get 5 more years of an absent God, only to have Chuck show up again at the very end of Fan Fiction.  And now we're just supposed to buy that God has been Chuck the whole time.  And those scenes where Chuck was freaking out, scared to death, and drinking himself into a stupor we're now supposed to believe were just God, "staying in character".  Whatever.  It's done, so now the onus is on them to make something worth watching.  

Edited May 17, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[FlickChick]

I'm with all of you here. I also believe that Chuck was just a prophet until Swan Song. Then, he allowed God to take his body as a vessel to write an end to the Supernatural books. When he disappeared at the end of "Swan Song", Chuck became simply himself and went off to continue writing "The Winchester Gospel" until God appeared and asked him to become His vessel once again. To me, this is the only way any of this makes any sense. Why the notorious duo felt the need to rewrite canon once again is beyond me!

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I'm with all of you here. I also believe that Chuck was just a prophet until Swan Song. Then, he allowed God to take his body as a vessel to write an end to the Supernatural books. When he disappeared at the end of "Swan Song", Chuck became simply himself and went off to continue writing "The Winchester Gospel" until God appeared and asked him to become His vessel once again. To me, this is the only way any of this makes any sense. Why the notorious duo felt the need to rewrite canon once again is beyond me!

To be fair, this was on Robbie Thompson.  Don't make me defend the Terrible Duo ever again.