S03.E03: Good And Evil Braided Be

[diebartdie]

I seem to recollect a scene where she was painting her scorpion symbol in blood on the doorway last season.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Penny Dreadful Takes A Couples' Retreat

Matt Debenham ranks the power couples of Penny Dreadful after 'Good And Evil Braided Be.'

[raven]

On 5/18/2016 at 1:25 AM, ganesh said:

Oh, no. Mr. Lyle is far too refined for the American West.

But...all those men wearing gunbelts!

 

9 hours ago, withanaich said:

The thing that makes Vanessa powerful -- her affinity for the supernatural -- could also be seen as her greatest weakness.

Vanessa is like a human hellmouth.

It may be that she is realllly tempted this time around, since Dracula is going for "cute friend" first.  I wouldn't be surprised if he next appears to be in peril from his minions.  Vanessa is protective about those she cares about.  She's been strong on her own, but her support system is scattered.  John Clare is distracted, Victor is obsessed.  She may be at her most vulnerable, especially working with Dr. Seward, uncovering memories and dealing with her issues.

[ganesh]

Penny Dreadful: Don't You Forget About Me.

[Bec]

Considering how many poor little boys there were in just Charles Dickens' oeuvre alone, I'd say the plight of exploited boy children in Victorian England is certainly not largely ignored by the world. In contrast, it's not every day exploited Victorian women get to be characters in their own right in a story instead of merely extras that are there to get killed by Jack the Ripper.

Speaking of Jack the Ripper, isn't this story set sometime after those murders? When something (that we now know is werewolf Ethan) killed that mother and daughter in the first episode, extras on the street were speculating that "Jack is Back". So, Justine can't be Jack the Ripper unless she can time travel. Right?

When Lily says Dorian is "exceptional", I hope she just means he's exceptional in that he can't be killed so she has a more elaborate plan than death in store for him.

I wasn't a fan of the blood orgy (I fell asleep and woke up just in time to see them getting their orgy on, and I was like "WTF is this?" hee)

Anyway, that scene with the suffragettes did ease my concern a little about Lily possibly being some kind of "evil feminist" stereotype. The suffragettes are working on just being considered people with rights. Lily wants to be the queen and ultimate overlord of the world. It's like the show was saying "there's a difference, see?" Though maybe some of the audience will still wilfully ignore that and try to claim Lily as a reason we gotta keep women down because otherwise women will all be murdering men and having blood orgies all day long. Or something.

[attica]

There's this new book out, which is a history about the Victorian era's fascination with poisoning. Lily telling Justine about her murderous plans made me think of it. Interestingly, the thing about poisoning that makes it so terrifying is that it's accessible even to oppressed populations. So you mistreat your wife? She probably can't divorce you, but she can arsenic your ass. Rape the maid?  Please enjoy this breakfast tray, sir!  Beat the field hand? I picked this especially for you, sir!

We rightly fear the rage of the underclasses; it's what we do with that fear -- oppress them further or raise them up -- that tells us what we are. Lily's had enough, and I'm having quite the vicarious thrill over what she's gonna do about it.

[sjohnson]

Culturally and linguistically witches are often not separated from poisoners. There was if I remember correctly a notorious incident of alleged mass poisoning by women in ancient Rome (331 BC I think.) Accused women confessed and charged others with poisonings and attempted poisonings. A large number of women were executed. It is hard to conceive this as anything but a witch hunt. Currently I'm reading C.L.R. James' The Black Jacobins, which early describes the pervasive belief that slaves would poison masters and rivals. The execution of poisoners then was one of the many daily atrocities of slavery in Haiti. Poisoners/witches are projections of the malice of the accuser I think. 

Witches are not universally conceived as women of course, just mostly. Lily's plan for a coven of poisoners still seems to me to be plans for a coven of witches in the form of ostensibly human form that Evelyn and Hecate lacked. To me it seems like the show is covertly appealing to old stereotypes about witches. Sure they throw in a scene of suffragettes as a kind of wink and nod to assure us that no, they know women are not really witches/poisoners. I guess this is a form of hanging a lampshade on it? The thing is, in my opinion lampshading really on works in shows that are pretty consistently light-hearted (if not downright campy.) Stuff like SG-1 perhaps. Penny Dreadful is never light hearted. And it aims at Grand Guignol, not camp, which it doesn't think is the same at all. 

I must wonder if this sort of thing isn't an issue for the Eva Green shenanigans the show lives for. Vanessa Ives is periodically presented as a liberated woman out of her time (which has resolutely ignored the real world presence of suffragists, and even the references to the "New Woman" in the novel Dracula itself!) That she is oppressed because of her sexuality. Yet the show has simultaneously committed itself to Vanessa's actual sexual activities being more or less synonymous with demonic possession. And of course the woman herself is we have discovered a reincarnation of Amunet, who seems to have been an ancient Egyptian sex demon herself. The show appears to be committing to Lily as the Big Bad. She is the one who has sex. Vanessa the heroine hasn't really completed a sexual relationship since being Amunet during the seance with Madame Kali in season one. She quit Dorian Gray mid-coitus, then suffered an horrific demonic possession as a result. In her right mind she wholly renounced him. Lightning from heaven cut short her relationship with Ethan Chandler. That surely is a sign from God! Especially in this show. 

The question then is whether the occasional verbal tics saying the opposite, that female sexuality isn't demonic, is sufficient to override what the story premises and plot are saying?

[raven]

Brona had sex willingly with Ethan and they were happy (minus the blood and dying of course).  Lily apparently looks back on the experience fondly.  So I don't know if we're getting "female sexuality is demonic".   For Vanessa, maybe, but she's got a literal demon inside of her.  

Lily's plan is a coven of poisoners?  I don't remember that.  I don't know what her plan is, though I'm sure murder is part of it. 

I think we're looking more at an overall theme of subjugation and suppression.  Lily wants revenge for being subjugated and so brings it on others; Ethan unable to suppress the wolf and what that means; Hecate not wanting him to; Vanessa dealing with suppressed memories; Victor not learning from his mistakes and seeking to subjugate Lily; is Jekyll suppressing Hyde.  I'm not sure how Malcolm and Kaetenay fit in, though Kaetenay is chasing Ethan and Ethan doesn't want him to.  Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about then :(   Or maybe a theme of the faces that are presented to the world but that aren't the whole picture; everyone fits there.  

[AuntieMame]

Brilliant post @sjohnson. Brona and Ethan aside, though I don't think that relationship was unambiguously without problems in terms of sexuality and power and the manner the show is presenting sexuality and female sexuality in particular. The show is buying into the idea that female libido is a powerful force best controlled. That these ideas come to us most recently from the Victorian era and that the show is a Victorian pastiche doesn't excuse writers or viewers from looking at these issues. Female desire and sexual agency is still acceptable only within very narrow parameters and the subconscious cultural fear that freeing female desires and bodies will result in a tsunami of overwhelming consequences is still very much with us, despite our lip service to slut shaming and related concepts.

Paradoxically, Vanessa is one of the strongest heroines of recent television.... But only so long as she is symbolically chaste, if not chaste to the letter of the law. Of course Brona is "allowed " to have sex, she's a prostitute, sex is what they do and what female sexuality is more controlled than that of the soiled dove, even if that sex is of her own will in that moment? Symbolically, Brona's sex with Ethan is even less free because Brona is already collecting the wage of her labor in the form of tuberculosis. A lot to think about as we haven't really come that far from Victorian fears as we'd like to believe.

[sjohnson]

The point about the TB is very strong. 

[paramitch]

I love this season so much. I especially love the way Logan is overlaying all of the stories with a conscious understanding that this is the story of a family -- it's no longer implied, it's real. 

As far as Dracula -- as a fantasy/horror writer, I'd argue that in Dracula, the entire subtext of the story is that, perversely, Dracula is more Mina's husband than Jonathan Harker ever is. Harker disempowers Mina; Dracula empowers her. We do not get the Harker wedding night, for instance. However, we do very much get a really intensely erotic pseudo-wedding night between Dracula and Mina -- and it's consensual, which I think is important here, and which is also where I think Logan went with it. So I definitely think Mina chose to ally herself with Dracula here, even if in part to take action against Vanessa (albeit with a more tragic outcome than the novel).

Besides, I love Sweet, and was delighted to see Christian Camargo in the role -- the division between Sweet and Dracula is really intriguing. And I do think it's brilliant casting -- Camargo has a unique ability to play both vulnerable and (ever so slightly geekily) attractive, alongside a persona that's also dark, confident and evilly sexy. Damn it. (Wait, did I say that out loud?)

And, as always, I'm someone who kind of hopes Sweet isn't actually acting. I'm always so much more interested when these moments are full of some genuine revelations, and Sweet's palpable loneliness (and the fact that he's not a nonverbal zombie vamp) makes it genuinely interesting.

Onward! Please note that the brilliant quotes below from all you fabulous people have been shortened/cut for space... 

On 5/16/2016 at 4:40 AM, Ravenya003 said:

It puts Vanessa/John Clare's interactions in an entirely different light: I wonder if it's the reason they were so in tune with each other on meeting for what was technically the second time, even though neither one remembered the other. And with John Clare's memories returning, I wonder if perhaps he'll remember her. 

Still secretly rooting for Lily, though I'm hesitant when it comes to the gender politics that John Logan is delving into (same goes for his decision to root Jekyll's Hyde in racial discrimination). Maybe if she starts killing innocent people instead of sexual predators I'll change my mind, but for now I'm discreetly cheering her on.

And Lily finally remembered Ethan! That was sad and sweet, though I almost dread their reunion.

I loved the moment when human-Clare was shown to be the attendant to poor Vanessa during her time in the asylum. I can't wait to see that story come to life. The two of them in the same room is never less than riveting for me.

The direction Lily's going this season is so interesting to me, because I think she does have a legitimate case for some serious rage. And her surprising subtlety and nuance in responding to Victor, and Justine, has me interested. While Dorian is acting out of ennui, Lily is acting out of at least a (somewhat) skewed wish for justice. And the little moments like when she revealed her memory of Ethan kind of broke my heart.

On 5/16/2016 at 6:59 AM, Netfoot said:

Couldn't agree more.  He finds everything boring, and that makes him boring too.

What's interesting to me is that in season one, Dorian made everyone more interesting because he seemed at that time to be genuinely interested in new people, thoughts, feelings, and relationships. So I loved his conversations with Vanessa, and even more with Ethan, because he did appear to be genuinely himself with them -- just excited to encounter new, brave, interesting people. I still liked him in Season 2 with Angelique -- where he plummeted in my interest in S2 was when he killed Angelique -- whom he visibly had feelings for, and yet, we've never seen him react to anything more than a raised eyebrow ever since. Lily is far more interesting to me, at this point.

On 5/16/2016 at 7:16 AM, GenieinTX said:

That blood orgy was ridiculous.  This show sometimes, I swear.  But I loved Dracula getting angry at the blonde minon.  It was scary and sexy and the same time, like a vampire should be.

The blood orgy just didn't work for me. It wouldn't be erotic no matter how depraved a being might be, but sticky and meat-smelling and yucky. The only way a scene like that would have worked for me without being laughable would have been if they'd all been vampires, because I could've bought then that it was like being bathed in champagne or something. But, as it was, the scene was a low point for me. (I also questioned Justine's first action post-kill as being to go over and kiss DORIAN. I just felt like based on the relationships we'd seen, that she would in fact have gone over and kissed Lily first, instead.

On 5/16/2016 at 7:36 AM, teddysmom said:

Hecate killing that couple isn't exactly comparable to what Ethan does.  He has no power over himself, and in fact he turned himself in to be hung, just to stop his killing. Hecate is just a stone cold murderer. 

The thing with Ethan is, he has left Hecate behind already and she has shown that she is effortlessly able to catch up with him no matter how far he gets. So I do have sympathy for him to a degree. He has also visibly tried to stop her from every murder she committed. That's what's so sad -- Ethan doesn't want to kill, and she feels nothing at the act and doesn't get his feelings at all. She wants to turn the man into the beast. And Josh Hartnett, as always, is able to really show us how pained he is at her actions.

On 5/16/2016 at 7:41 AM, BuddhaBelly said:

Justine is giving me very strong Claudia from Interview with the Vampire vibes. The actress is doing a great part on something coiled underneath innocent skin. I like the way she plays across Lily and I can see her easily wanting to overtake Lily as leader of this crusade.

I'm not the biggest fan of Victor and watching him be a smug, arrogant little bitch toward Henry made me want to slap him. It was hateful for no reason, especially to someone who came to help you with your dumb plan. However, Henry is borderline unhinged in his quest to master duality. I'm sure it's totally pushed by the terrible treatment he experience in London and he would have not had any relief in Indian being half-caste.

Great observation about Justine -- she does have that childlike innocence -- all the more horrible after what she described experiencing. There is something "Claudia-like" about her in that way. And that extends not only from her terrible status as a victimized, very young woman (nearly a girl, if not on Claudia's level), but also in that hint of terrible resolve and potential evil underneath the sweet doll-like face.

I love Henry Jekyll already, and I think it's brilliant to have him as a man caught between two worlds and prejudices. Also, the actor is just beautiful, and he conveys so much feeling about his friendship with Victor. I know it probably won't/can't end well, but I honestly wish him well, darn it. I kind of hope he'll be okay anyway. Sniffle.

On 5/17/2016 at 5:29 PM, raven said:

I had to laugh at this because last season everyone who saw him was all "you're ugly!!" and this season no one bats an eye at his appearance.

I actually find the reactions this season more believable -- sure, he's scarred and pale but not visibly alien. So I like that, as he has come to accept himself as a person, John Clare is now more able to be a part of the world without undue comment as well.

On 5/23/2016 at 8:52 PM, AuntieMame said:

The show is buying into the idea that female libido is a powerful force best controlled. 

Paradoxically, Vanessa is one of the strongest heroines of recent television.... But only so long as she is symbolically chaste, if not chaste to the letter of the law. Of course Brona is "allowed " to have sex, she's a prostitute, sex is what they do and what female sexuality is more controlled than that of the soiled dove, even if that sex is of her own will in that moment? Symbolically, Brona's sex with Ethan is even less free because Brona is already collecting the wage of her labor in the form of tuberculosis. A lot to think about as we haven't really come that far from Victorian fears as we'd like to believe.

While I agree with your big-picture thoughts on how we're not as far from Victorian judgments as we'd like to believe today (absolutely true), I'd definitely argue against this POV on the show, and in fact, I don't think the show can have Vanessa as a powerful and strong heroine who isn't in control of her own desires (or that they are subjugated to male ones). Vanessa has always been shown as being forthright and sexual, and one of my favorite moments in S1 was that Malcolm actually inadvertently witnessed her chance encounter with the guy in the alley, reacted without judgment in any way, and later on simply checked that she was okay, covered her with a blanket, and it was never mentioned at all. Vanessa is shown to have her own demons, but I would argue that she is also shown to be in active control of her own sexual decisions at all times.

I think it's an interesting idea, that Brona's TB meant she was already "punished" but I actually saw it not as LOGAN punishing Brona, but that her lot in life had been assured by life, chance, and cruel men, and yet she actively continued to show a brightness, love and lightness that made her story all the more interesting and subversive. I also loved that her relationship with Ethan was shown as always being forthrightly loving and also sexual, and that we never saw her as being conflicted about that (which would have been an all too easy trope).

I'd argue that, instead, the show compellingly shows us several women who are fighting against a world in which men want them to subvert themselves, their power and their desires -- and the outcomes when they do or do not do so. Look at Vanessa, Lily, Justine, even Seward. I definitely think Logan gets the power differential in these times and is exploring that deliberately.

[sjohnson]

In the book, Dracula forces Mina to drink the blood like (if I remember the phrasing correctly) someone pushing a kitten's head down to drink from a plate of milk. Doesn't work as an erotic wedding night for me, but as a rape...that is all the more horrible because it nonetheless inspires a responsive lust. Lucy as Stephen King noted clearly is cumming her brains out. Mina is a little more decorous, but yeah, it's there I think. The Coppola movie is incompetent in turning that into Mina's grand romance instead of the adultery of a woman who still loves her husband but really, really wants it from the lover. (And doubles the stupidity by making up a previous Harker "infidelity" with the three women vampires!) Power differentials between men and women aren't directly present in Dracula, save as a gender inversion where it's the wife who contracts syphilis. Harker will share before he gives her up, a wittol not a cuckold. 

In my viewing, the only chance was who the guy in the street was. It is not clear when Amunet retreated within but "she" was calling all the shots, not Vanessa the cover personality. The only other time we've seen Vanessa taking charge of her sex life was seducing Mina's fiancee and rejecting Dorian mid-act. I can't see the first as life affirming for her. And the second really is the strongest evidence for arguing the show treats her sexuality in particular as demonic. The only thing remotely approaching a mature sexual relationship was with Ethan and lightning struck and set the house afire. In this kind of a show, this cannot be a coincidence. And I can't see how it's a positive sign. 

I must applaud the observation that Dorian Gray's character has been annihilated to service Bronastein's terrorist monologues. Leaving Dorian as the cad might have actually explored power differentials, though, in the same way Victor insisting on a corset did.

[Epeolatrix]

Quote

And doubles the stupidity by making up a previous Harker "infidelity" with the three women vampires!

The scene with the three women vampires visiting Harker's bed is in the book; I don't think I'd call it infidelity, but the text for that scene is intensely saucy. Do I misunderstand what you're talking about?

[AuntieMame]

On 5/26/2016 at 1:43 PM, sjohnson said:

In the book, Dracula forces Mina to drink the blood like (if I remember the phrasing correctly) someone pushing a kitten's head down to drink from a plate of milk. Doesn't work as an erotic wedding night for me, but as a rape...that is all the more horrible because it nonetheless inspires a responsive lust. Lucy as Stephen King noted clearly is cumming her brains out. Mina is a little more decorous, but yeah, it's there I think. The Coppola movie is incompetent in turning that into Mina's grand romance instead of the adultery of a woman who still loves her husband but really, really wants it from the lover. (And doubles the stupidity by making up a previous Harker "infidelity" with the three women vampires!) Power differentials between men and women aren't directly present in Dracula, save as a gender inversion where it's the wife who contracts syphilis. Harker will share before he gives her up, a wittol not a cuckold. 

In my viewing, the only chance was who the guy in the street was. It is not clear when Amunet retreated within but "she" was calling all the shots, not Vanessa the cover personality. The only other time we've seen Vanessa taking charge of her sex life was seducing Mina's fiancee and rejecting Dorian mid-act. I can't see the first as life affirming for her. And the second really is the strongest evidence for arguing the show treats her sexuality in particular as demonic. The only thing remotely approaching a mature sexual relationship was with Ethan and lightning struck and set the house afire. In this kind of a show, this cannot be a coincidence. And I can't see how it's a positive sign. 

I must applaud the observation that Dorian Gray's character has been annihilated to service Bronastein's terrorist monologues. Leaving Dorian as the cad might have actually explored power differentials, though, in the same way Victor insisting on a corset did.

Thank you for clarifying a lot of what I was trying to say. Vanessa's sexuality raises an ancient demon goddess! The very definition of a femininity that must be controlled. I also read her stopping in the middle with Dorian as keeping control of the demon. Nor is stopping generally a good thing. Yes, you should be allowed to make that choice but when you do it generally isn't puppies and rainbows. 

As for Brona and tuberculosis and sexuality, it is the very fact of Brona dying that makes her "disposable" along with the fact that she is also a prostitute, again disposable, that to me allows that tiny sliver of happy sexuality. It's all ephemeral and the writers and viewers never have to confront it again. Plus, Brona turns into Lily...more female desire and rage on the rampage. And the guys are making plans to either kill or control Lily who is ultimately a source of terror, not love.

I love this show but I don't think the writers are portraying female desire as anything but dangerous. Look at the head witch from last season and how her interactions with Malcolm and the country lord were portrayed. Even the cut wife and the talk about abortion was pretty dark. Ethan and Vanessa love each other and would have made love during their sojourn at the cut wife's cottage but Vanessa stops it because they're dangerous. Her wording. 

[paramitch]

On 5/26/2016 at 0:43 PM, sjohnson said:

In the book, Dracula forces Mina to drink the blood like (if I remember the phrasing correctly) someone pushing a kitten's head down to drink from a plate of milk. Doesn't work as an erotic wedding night for me, but as a rape...that is all the more horrible because it nonetheless inspires a responsive lust. Lucy as Stephen King noted clearly is cumming her brains out. Mina is a little more decorous, but yeah, it's there I think. The Coppola movie is incompetent in turning that into Mina's grand romance instead of the adultery of a woman who still loves her husband but really, really wants it from the lover. (And doubles the stupidity by making up a previous Harker "infidelity" with the three women vampires!) Power differentials between men and women aren't directly present in Dracula, save as a gender inversion where it's the wife who contracts syphilis. Harker will share before he gives her up, a wittol not a cuckold. 

Here's where it gets interesting, because a lot relies on the subtext, and it's all so incredibly Victorian and oppositional, but basically, I think there's a case to be made here for POV, especially on the examination of Mina as a character. She is always viewed only as a sexless and 'pure' being, to the extent that there is never a single physical description of Mina in the entire book. Lucy -- sexual, pretty, damned Lucy, is allowed physical traits and even a healthy sexuality to a degree. In the Coppola film this was taken to a laughable degree, as Lucy was portrayed (badly) as pretty much having nonstop orgasms right through death. Mina in the book however is not allowed these traits because she transcends them; she is not sexual; she has no sexual longings, and the book continues to heavily imply throughout that she and Jonathan have still never consummated their marriage due to his PTSD. 

While the Dracula visit to Mina has undeniable rape undertones (which are definitely not what I'm defending here), I do question the point of view. The scene is viewed and described by the men who -- it's seriously questioned -- would not be able to recognize a consensual one for Mina here. By men who cannot do anything but view Mina as the kitten in the scenario, forced to the milk, forced to take part in this awful sexual display. Meanwhile, the diary entries do point to the possibility that the liaisons with Dracula allow Mina (as Lucy before her) the freedom to act out sexually without fear, because they are "dreams." So she gets to explore her sexuality safely in a Victorian landscape while still showing the "appropriate" Victorian shame afterwards.

To me, Dracula is a novel, ultimately, about the sublimation of the sexual impulse into something wicked and dark, something to be denied and feared. Jonathan is easily (if not totally then nearly so) seduced by the three brides but shows nothing but shame after the episode. If you look at Dracula himself as an analogy for sex, Jonathan is permanently scarred by his encounter even as Lucy is killed by it and Mina is exhilarated by it, and only shamed in the company of the men who had thought she was "better than that." You used the word "decorous" to describe Mina, but that's not my word at all. She's trapped, a product of her time, a chaste construct of the expectations of the men around her. Which is why I liked and approved of the Coppola handling of that scene -- it gave the power (and POV) back to Mina and made the situation clearly consensual (although I think all that "possession" stuff for Mina was idiotic and promptly removed her agency for the rest of her subplot).

As far as Vanessa in season one -- Josh Logan talked about that scene in interviews, and I believe it was stated outright that Vanessa was in her right mind, not possessed, but feeling a sort of heightened awareness in which she went out and sort of 'burned off' her post-possession feelings through sex. She also shows no shame over that sex, nor over her sexual feelings for Dorian until they clearly awaken the darkness she carries. I like Vanessa's strength and do feel that while she has many hurdles, she's not actually sexually conflicted. She's just cautious because of the supernatural forces she attracts. But I do think she shows a clear and healthy sexuality and sexual empowerment as a character.

It's even commented on by Dr. Sweet/Dracula -- he says no woman has ever asked him out in such a way, and she just shrugs and smiles as she responds, showing no embarrassment at all. That's the Vanessa I love.

On 5/29/2016 at 3:58 PM, Violet Impulse said:

The scene with the three women vampires visiting Harker's bed is in the book; I don't think I'd call it infidelity, but the text for that scene is intensely saucy. Do I misunderstand what you're talking about?

I'd agree that it's saucy (hee!), and interestingly, it's also presented pretty coyly -- it allows Jonathan to enjoy the entire encounter while constantly bemoaning the fact that he's powerless and it really isn't his cup of tea. It's fantastically Victorian in that way.

On 5/29/2016 at 9:50 PM, AuntieMame said:

Thank you for clarifying a lot of what I was trying to say. Vanessa's sexuality raises an ancient demon goddess! The very definition of a femininity that must be controlled. I also read her stopping in the middle with Dorian as keeping control of the demon. Nor is stopping generally a good thing. Yes, you should be allowed to make that choice but when you do it generally isn't puppies and rainbows. 

As for Brona and tuberculosis and sexuality, it is the very fact of Brona dying that makes her "disposable" along with the fact that she is also a prostitute, again disposable, that to me allows that tiny sliver of happy sexuality. It's all ephemeral and the writers and viewers never have to confront it again. Plus, Brona turns into Lily...more female desire and rage on the rampage. And the guys are making plans to either kill or control Lily who is ultimately a source of terror, not love.

I love this show but I don't think the writers are portraying female desire as anything but dangerous. Look at the head witch from last season and how her interactions with Malcolm and the country lord were portrayed. Even the cut wife and the talk about abortion was pretty dark. Ethan and Vanessa love each other and would have made love during their sojourn at the cut wife's cottage but Vanessa stops it because they're dangerous. Her wording. 

I just don't see these same correlations at all. First off, the "demon goddess" was already there, and Vanessa is shown even at the very first seconds of the series in actively attempting to subvert the forces acting upon her. So I don't see that sex is what awakens them.

What I took from her scene with Dorian was that it wasn't sex that awakened Amunet (or the demonic forces seeking her), but sex with DORIAN. Who is more evil than she knows, and who is himself enchanted so that he can in fact act out the most depraved and evil acts imaginable without having to pay for those actions. Later, she responds joyfully to Ethan only to pull back in fear because she senses the beast in him and fears that their attraction is not one of their best selves (Ethan and Vanessa) but their worst selves -- the Wolf and Amunet, for instance.

In much the same way, I utterly disagree that Brona's tuberculosis is in any way about making her "disposable." she is shown to the end to be a rich, full character -- a loving, warm, complex and sensual woman in spite of all she has endured (and with a healthy sex life with Ethan, even as a sex worker in depraved conditions during the rest of her days). 

I feel like in damning Brona AND Lily, you're kind of having your cake and eating it too, here. Brona is sexual and vibrant but the fact that she's dying means her sexuality is worth nothing (and makes her disposable). I disagree completely.

On to Lily: How is Lily-- a fantastic and powerful, rich character, a sign of Penny Dreadful's sexism? When she is, if anything, the complex and rightful avenging angel of the Victorian age and its mindset? She is the object of both worship and love, and more. She is even able to respond with an echo of compassion, as she did here to Victor.

For me, Lily is fantastic and fascinating; she is hard where poor Brona was soft. She us the Victorian subconscious and its inevitable awakening; she is Brona and more than Brona. She is every impulse Brona set aside; she remembers every "hard back to a man's hand" that Brona disregarded. She will not be used, chastened, worshipped or ignored. 

I feel like you're ultimately looking at the trees, not the forest. "Penny Dreadful" doesn't view female desire as dangerous; it views desire as dangerous. Male or female. For everyone.

To me, the heart of this show is the secret heart of its characters and their monsters and demons -- their broken often unspoken yearning for love, connection, family... even as they believe, heartbreakingly, that they cannot, should not, or will not achieve it.

[sjohnson]

Logan says it was Vanessa who accosted the guy? By "heightened" he means "horny." Was it the taunting Murray about the death of Peter? Or was it contemplating his dalliances with African women that sexually excited her so much? 

I've always tried to take "Voice of God" announcements with a grain of salt. The thing is, saying the manifestation of Amunet leads to Vanessa's sole complete real world sexual act as an adult that we've seen does pretty much confirm that Vanessa's sexuality is Amunet's sexuality. Vanessa is Amunet's incarnation.

Edited June 5, 2016 by sjohnson

[millennium]

On 5/16/2016 at 9:20 AM, withanaich said:

 

Count me in among those who finds Dorian dull. Dull as dishwater. Having an orgy covered in blood doesn't make him interesting, it's just nasty and boring. (I couldn't concentrate on the scene because I kept wondering who was going to have to clean that up!) Do not care. Instead of Lily making him more interesting, he's just dragging her story down. It's only compelling when she's discussing her terrible plans with Justine and Dorian is, you know, not there. Hell, give him his own spin-off if it means I don't have to see his smug-faced chicken-neck ass on my TV anymore. 

I was wondering about all that blood, then wondered if maybe there was a shark in the room, the show having just jumped it.   The blood orgy wasn't shocking or sexy or edgy or decadent.   It was fucking stupid.  Everything about Dorian and Lily is fucking stupid now.   Those two have been starring in their own separate show for too long, and it needs to be canceled.

[Bruinsfan]

On 5/17/2016 at 1:29 PM, WaltersHair said:

Yes! Proteus and Lily look normal and then here's this dude who is literally white as a sheet. Why does he look so bad compared to the others?

At least this season they're achieving his look through makeup rather than painfully obvious CGI desaturation as if the Creature were Velma Mulholland on In Living Color.