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Season 12 Spoilers, Speculation and Anticipation

Danielg342

By Danielg342
in Criminal Minds

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WendyCR72
WendyCR72

If this was Gibson's first rodeo in terms of physical violence, I'd say this reaction is an overreaction. However, it isn't. So he got more chances with even having the first instance be all "bygones"

Princess Lucky
Princess Lucky

Actually, close your eyes and replay the situation like so: What if this producer had kicked TG? What if TG had kicked MGG? What if TG had kicked Erica Messer? What if Erica Messer

Princess Lucky
Princess Lucky

But this is the second instance of violence from TG. He "shoved" another person years ago, and that was swept under the rug (obviously, since we're just now finding out about it). Who was that other p

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Kara101

Kara101

10 hours ago, Lebanna said:

Hmm. The actress playing the defence attorney is pretty and age appropriate for Reid. I wonder if something is going to happen there.

I didn't pick up on this until I came here but now looking back on the preview I wonder too. It does seem like it would be hard to start a relatiomship if he's going to be spending time in jail though. However I could totally see them giving him a girlfriend resulting from this arc so "at least a good thing came out of it for him." For a second I though something might have been going on between him and Rosa because of this and the apparent trust that he placed in her. But then I saw her picture and obviosily that wasn't the case.

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autumnmountains

autumnmountains

21 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

"I can't work with a client who lies to me" sorta turned me right off the idea of her becoming a love interest for him. No thank you.

I would like to see him have a viable, worthy relationship before the series ends though.

Exactly. While I'm sure she'll be a good defense attorney (again, I never thought Spencer Reid would ever need one!) , I doubt there will be any romantic feelings involved. 

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Droogie

Droogie

(edited)
18 minutes ago, normasm said:

Yeah, no thank you to this worn out soap opera trope of two lonely people at odds, who can't stand each other!!

Aw, come on, y'all!  It strikes a different chord with me:  my husband and I could not stand each other when we first met.  Of course, we were 12...  But still.

I'll be the lone voice crying in the wilderness; I ain't skeered.  Twelve seasons in, I want some relief from the living entity that is the loneliness of our boy, and I 99% don't care who it is.

Edited by Droogie
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autumnmountains

autumnmountains

6 minutes ago, Droogie said:

Aw, come on, y'all!  It strikes a different chord with me:  my husband and I could not stand each other when we first met.  Of course, we were 12...  But still.

I'll be the lone voice crying in the wilderness; I ain't skeered.  Twelve seasons in, I want some relief from the living entity that is the loneliness of our boy, and I 99% don't care who it is.

I do want him to find a soulmate,  just not the defense attorney. :)

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ReidFan

ReidFan

5 hours ago, Droogie said:

Anybody.  Prentiss/JJ/Lewis/Loker/Einstein/DefenseAttorney/Lila/Austin, I do not care.  A N Y B O D Y.

I have no low standards.  OK, a pulse.  She needs to have a pulse.

Prentiss, JJ, Lewis:  Just NO.

Loker: this would be my choice of all the ones you fielded but

Einstein: meh, all right I suppose

Defense Attorney: nope. not if she's gonna call our genius a liar.

Lila: sure, what's Amber Heard Depp up to nowadays anyway?

Austin: yeah, that would be okay too.

How about  an upcoming character we haven't met yet who helps see him through all this bs :) She'll have a pulse, be age and intelligence appropriate and not accuse him of being a liar. How's that Droogie?

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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Cat Adams? I like the idea of Reid getting a girlfriend who knows what he knows but uses it for nefarious deeds. She wouldn't commit crimes to mess with him, she would just have a different idea of where her morals actually lie. Perhaps in this case she'd be a vigilante or a "Robin Hood", so she'd still be a "good" character.

Willowy

Willowy

I think Morgan's coming back for a visit.

We know Shemar's not the most subtle of men, and he's been dropping hints about a 'secret' that he has and how hard it is to not spill to his 'baby girls'. I realize that's what he calls all his female fans now, but what else could it be? To my way of thinking, from what I've seen so far Shemar isn't a highly in-demand actor that would warrant any level of secrecy from any project he'd be associated with except Criminal Minds.

With most of us missing him, triggered and exacerbated mostly by what's happening to Reid, I don't really think he's reprising his role on The Young and the Restless. Anyone else agree?

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Bookish Jen

Bookish Jen

10 hours ago, Franky said:

I think Morgan's coming back for a visit.

We know Shemar's not the most subtle of men, and he's been dropping hints about a 'secret' that he has and how hard it is to not spill to his 'baby girls'. I realize that's what he calls all his female fans now, but what else could it be? To my way of thinking, from what I've seen so far Shemar isn't a highly in-demand actor that would warrant any level of secrecy from any project he'd be associated with except Criminal Minds.

With most of us missing him, triggered and exacerbated mostly by what's happening to Reid, I don't really think he's reprising his role on The Young and the Restless. Anyone else agree?

He's about as subtle as a buzz saw through butter.

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iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

(edited)
On 2/16/2017 at 3:10 PM, autumnmountains said:

Exactly. While I'm sure she'll be a good defense attorney (again, I never thought Spencer Reid would ever need one!) , I doubt there will be any romantic feelings involved. 

 

On 2/16/2017 at 2:46 PM, ReidFan said:

"I can't work with a client who lies to me" sorta turned me right off the idea of her becoming a love interest for him. No thank you.

I would like to see him have a viable, worthy relationship before the series ends though.

 

On 2/16/2017 at 3:17 PM, Franky said:

Good grief no. NO romance for Reid until this unsurety has leveled out. Spencer's always had difficulties, but he's always overcome them, sometimes by time and circumstance, sometimes by sheer force of will. 

Also fuck her for the cliched yelling at him. I don't like her already.

If the writers don't plan on making it a viable long-term thing, then I must agree, absolutely do not want a romance connection between Reid and this upcoming DefenseAttorney.   I will rage if they make it a love-possible connection that ends up getting ruined - for any reason - and his friends and viewing fans are left going "Awww, wooby!" over Reid's woes of a failed connection yet again.  Sometimes I honestly think the Spencer Reid character was created and exists just to give the writers a constant and reliable person in the show to just keep piling shit on, in terms of his personal life.

And the two people I would rather have him in a relationship with - at least in my own mindscape - are both in stable relationships already, with no signs of either changing any time soon.  And I don't think this show has enough life left in it to make it believable with either possible future pairing, even if started soon on making it an in-show reality.

ETA:  Actually, there could have been 3rd and 4th options, but we haven't seen one in 10 years and the other was canned from the show after one abbreviated season's worth of work about 6 years ago.

Edited by iRarelyWatchTV36
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smoker

smoker

(edited)
4 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Who would that be? Someone from CM:SB?

Seaver?

There were JJ (for a single episode, I would have loved watching JJ turning down Reid), the actress, his piano man friend, the waitress, Siever, Maeve, Einstein, Locker.

The ones I liked better were his friend, the waitress and Locker, maybe I am a bit biased because I love 52 pick up and Rock Creek park.

Edited by smoker
Danielg342

Danielg342

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Thanks. I thought "abbreviated season" meant there was a CM season tht received less than the full order of episodes, and there's never been a CM season that did that.

For what it's worth, I never saw any sparks between Seaver and well, anyone (let alone Reid).

I hope this lawyer works out.

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Kara101

Kara101

(edited)
21 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

Thanks. I thought "abbreviated season" meant there was a CM season tht received less than the full order of episodes, and there's never been a CM season that did that.

For what it's worth, I never saw any sparks between Seaver and well, anyone (let alone Reid).

I hope this lawyer works out.

Do you mean you hope the lawyer works out in that she is a good defense attorney or that she works out as a romantic interest? 

Edited by Haleysgalaxy
iRarelyWatchTV36

iRarelyWatchTV36

Quote

@ForeverAlone said;  Well...we know he's going to be locked up for more than one episode, and Erica made it sound like this arc won't finish up until the end of the season, with her hope of carrying it forward into a possible future season. So make of that what you will. 

If Reid is still in prison, with no easily foreseeable near-future that sees Scratch caught and Reid out of prison with all charges dropped, by the time the final credits of the season roll up, and the renewal for S13 is still unknown at that time...

then Mrs Messer is getting a face full of;
ihy.gif

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ReidFan

ReidFan

dunno a whole lot about the US judicial system. So...

in order to be convicted of murder, does one not need to prove that there was planning/intent to kill?

IOW

Reid was drugged. Against his will. If he isn't (obviously!) in his own right mind at the time, is it not impossible to affirm that he'd actually *planned* to kill her?

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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1 hour ago, ReidFan said:

dunno a whole lot about the US judicial system. So...

in order to be convicted of murder, does one not need to prove that there was planning/intent to kill?

IOW

Reid was drugged. Against his will. If he isn't (obviously!) in his own right mind at the time, is it not impossible to affirm that he'd actually *planned* to kill her?

Here's what I know:

Laws vary between states, but typically there are three different kinds of murder charges:

  • First degree murder
  • Second degree murder
  • Manslaughter

For first degree murder (or capital murder), the murder needs to have been planned out with the full intent to kill. Many UnSubs  get convicted of this because they planned their attacks and usually planned their victims, but even an UnSub that "blitz-attacks" is likely getting convicted of first degree murder, because while he may not have planned to kill that particular victim, he did plan the act and intended to kill whomever crossed their paths.

Also, any time a law enforcement agent is murdered it is always first degree murder.

For second degree murder, the murder needs not to have been planned before, but it does need to occur with the perpetrator knowing or ought to have known that what they were doing would kill the person. For example, if two people get into an argument and one person decides to end it by killing the other, that's second degree murder because, while the killer didn't intend to kill the victim at first, as the argument went on he made that decision. A murder of this type would also involve a situation where, say, one arguer gets so fed up with his opponent that he shoves him off the roof of a building- the arguer may not have intended to kill his opponent but there's no way he could plausibly deny that he didn't know pushing someone off of a roof would kill someone.

A lot of drug-induced murders would fall in this category, because- typically speaking- the person intended to get intoxicated, and, in doing so, can't deny they didn't know the risk.

For manslaughter, you need to have a killing that was unintentional in some way. This would then get divided into voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, where:

  • Voluntary manslaughter would involve that you killed someone that you intended to hurt but didn't realize you had killed. Going back to the arguers, if the one arguer pushed his opponent and can prove that he didn't realize that his opponent was near the edge of the roof, he'd get slapped with voluntary manslaughter. He still intended to hurt the victim but he couldn't have been expected to know what he was doing would kill him.
  • Involuntary manslaughter involves a simple accident- you didn't mean to hurt anyone but your actions still killed someone anyway. Now, for this charge to be pursued, you'd have to have an accident that was caused by carelessness or negligence on your part. For example, if you're driving through an intersection and, while responding to a text you hit a pedestrian, that's involuntary manslaughter- you obviously didn't mean to kill anyone or hurt them, but because your actions prevented you from properly paying attention to the road and ensuring you wouldn't hit anyone, you can still be criminally charged.

    (Now, if you're driving and someone jumps in front of you at the last minute and, even though you do everything you can to avoid him but you still hit him, likely you wouldn't get charged with anything- the killing was well beyond your control)

The question, as it pertains to Reid, is where his crime fits. It's definitely not capital murder, because Reid never intended or planned to kill Rosa. It's also definitely not voluntary manslaughter, because Reid never intended to harm Rosa.

So this leaves second degree murder and involuntary manslaughter. I believe the writers are going for the former, but most of the evidence tilts towards the latter:

  • I can't recall if the Scratchy planted heroin in the motel room where Reid met Rosa. I believe it was in the car that Reid was driving but that was it. In any case, the police would have no proof of where the drugs came from- a simple check into both Rosa's and Reid's contacts would reveal that neither of them knew anyone that would sell them heroin. Reid would also likely testify that the drugs weren't in his car when he got to the motel nor where they at the motel before Rosa was murdered.
  • Reid would likely testify that he didn't know how the drugs got into his system. Definitely once his memory clears up, he would say he was attacked from behind and injected with the drug while the Scratchy committed the murder. Now, if we leave out the Scratchy, we've got a scenario where there's Reid and Rosa in a motel room together and Reid is suddenly drugged...meaning, suddenly Rosa looks like the real perpetrator. Granted, it's still flimsy but at least Reid could testify that he didn't visit Rosa to do drugs and he didn't knowingly do drugs (that's an important distinction), and there's no way the state could prove otherwise.
  • Reid would also likely have ten dozen character witnesses all saying that he isn't the type who'd do drugs and that he cleaned himself up from his past experiences. Yes, he has suspected drug use on his record (one more reason why this trial is a joke, because Reid would likely take that question and plead the fifth, jeopardizing his FBI career regardless of whether or not he's cleared), but I would think most courts would believe someone who's been clean for 9-10 years really is still clean. Thus, the state would have a hard time proving Reid was truly aware of how he would react under the influence of drugs or that he enthusiastically chose to do the drugs- if he was an experienced "party animal" or that he knew the heroin would be present before he took it then it would be a different matter.
  • Considering that Reid crossed the border with vials that contained no illegal narcotics, the state would have difficulty proving that Reid would have received heroin from Rosa. Reid's story that he was going to Rosa to obtain medicine for Diana would hold up, because he was never caught before actually transporting anything illegal. If he's going there to pick up illegal drugs he'd have a much harder time arguing the heroin was a plant job- because then there'd be proof that Reid actually got illegal heroin from Rosa.
  • As far as I know, Reid only grabbed the knife by its blade- hence his cut- so the state would have no way of knowing if Reid actually handled the knife.

So, to me, the only narrative the state could have is that, say, Reid met Rosa to get the drugs for his mother. At some point during this encounter, Rosa injected Reid with heroin, and, because Reid couldn't control or anticipate the effects, wound up killing Rosa. At worst, this is a drug bender that just went wrong, and a court would likely see that Reid was simply careless.

Also, keep in mind that courts tend to undercharge, because prosecutors don't like wasting taxpayer money on cases that aren't winnable. If the prosecution truly believed it had a weak case for second degree murder against Reid- and Prentiss even admitted to this- then they wouldn't go for that charge. The situation would then become one where Reid would be fighting the maximum possible penalty for manslaughter, which under U.S. Federal jurisdiction is eight years.

Now, perhaps if these writers were aware at all about outside circumstances within their stories, you might have an angle where the Mexican government would be pressuring U.S. officials to weigh in on a second degree murder charge, because an American- especially a FBI agent- killing a Mexican would be big news in Mexico. There'd be no way that the Mexican populace would want Reid to have any kind of leniency, forcing the prosecutor's hand.

Only then could Reid facing 25 years be remotely realistic...but then we wouldn't likely have the plea deals, because there's no way the Mexicans would want that.

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ReidFan

ReidFan

oh, I just realised, Daniel (on the about eighth viewing of the ep) apparently the car Reid was driving was stolen. The lawyer asks him during her rapidfire interview  (paraphrasing) did you know the car was stolen' and his answer was (also paraphrasing) 'that's what they told me' (to me, indicating he doesn't remember stealing it)

so, it's not his car in the first place. Although it's in his possession when he's arrested, it's not his car. Wouldn't that mean there's huge doubt as to whether the contents of the trunk are his too then?

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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7 hours ago, ReidFan said:

thank you Daniel! that clears it up....sorta kinda a little bit.

What you're politely not saying then, is that the producers/writers are playing with the rules in the storyline  :)

I suppose so. :) I'm no lawyer, but the storyline flies in the face of everything I know about legal logic. A fanfic writer I could understand making these kinds of mistakes, but Hollywood writers should know better.

4 hours ago, ReidFan said:

oh, I just realised, Daniel (on the about eighth viewing of the ep) apparently the car Reid was driving was stolen. The lawyer asks him during her rapidfire interview  (paraphrasing) did you know the car was stolen' and his answer was (also paraphrasing) 'that's what they told me' (to me, indicating he doesn't remember stealing it)

so, it's not his car in the first place. Although it's in his possession when he's arrested, it's not his car. Wouldn't that mean there's huge doubt as to whether the contents of the trunk are his too then?

Well, in that case, Scratchy looks even more ridiculous. If it was Reid's car that had drugs planted in then that's one thing, but a random car Reid stole? How could the Scratchy know Reid would steal that car?

That's as huge a plot hole as I've ever seen.

ReidFan

ReidFan

But in their defense (LOL, yes, I'm defending the writers), we don't yet know the true acquisition history of the vehicle. It has yet to really come out.

 He may have stolen the vehicle *before* he met Rosa at the hotel. Reid may not have stolen it at all. Scratch/henchmen may have stolen the vehicle and provided it to Reid thereafter. We really don't know yet.

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Danielg342

Danielg342

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43 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

He may have stolen the vehicle *before* he met Rosa at the hotel. Reid may not have stolen it at all. Scratch/henchmen may have stolen the vehicle and provided it to Reid thereafter. We really don't know yet.

Yes...maybe. Which raises more questions, but I won't get to them. If the writers are depending on "maybe" to fill their plot holes, then they are not doing their jobs. As @ForeverAlone is apt to say I'm not going to connect the dots for the writers- they have to do it themselves.

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ForeverAlone

ForeverAlone

Precisely. I can suspend my disbelief a certain amount, but I want to think that a show's writers have actually thought through any arc they want to write, and aren't just writing it as they go along. I can think of a couple shows I watch that have that bad habit, and it's annoying as hell, because I would like to think that someone has a larger vision for how a story is supposed to progress. Plus I would hope that the writers have made the connections that will fit a story together logically and minimize any plot holes. I will withhold final judgment on this story until I see how it plays out. I just HOPE that it will all make sense in the end, but I am leery about it, just based on what we have seen from story arcs from them in the past. 

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Willowy

Willowy

Daniel, it's Rosa. ^^^

JMO, I agree with your remark about the 'pedestrian' rest of the season and how they wouldn't want to do that, but they really could have explored his incarceration experience and how it affected him. He was assaulted. He may be assaulted worse. And with him having to deal with Diana every night and her not understanding when he's back home, it could have been an awesome showcase for Matthew. 

Instead it looks like they're keeping him there. I hope there's a payoff, because at this point I don't really see it.

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