S06.E03: Oathbreaker

[Mya Stone]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Bran glimpses the past; Daenerys learns what's in store for her; Tommen faces the High Sparrow; Arya trains to be No One; Varys comes up with a solution to a vexing problem; Ramsay gets a gift.

 For now, here's a little Naked Jon Snow to ogle. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by SilverStormm
Removed spoiler tag

[janjan]

Oh no!!! Not Shaggydogg!!! RIP, wolfie. BTW, where is Summer?

So Jon's whole getting-dead thing was just a way to get out of that pesky oath. Yay - Go Jon! Go somewhere warmer. With better lighting.

Wanna bet that's Lyanna in the tower? So who killed her? Not Ned, I hope, in some sort of twisted honor killing. No, Ned, don't do it. Or maybe she's in childbirth up there and dies naturally. And Ned takes baby Jon home with him.

Maybe Ramsay will lose interest in Sansa now that he has Rickon the Nutcracker, whom he can set up as puppet Warden of the North. But Osha will be Ramsay's undoing. You heard it here.

Big Bird is a master manipulator, worming his way into Tommen's confidence. Will he actually get Tommen to side with him against Cersei? That seems to be his plan. And Cersei will have a hard decision to make.

[90PercentGravity]

This episode bored me a bit. 

Is there a point to Frankenstein's Mountain beyond being broody and intimidating? 

I was confused by the trial by combat plan. Who are they wanting to fight? 

Not enough Brienne. 

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Wanna bet that's Lyanna in the tower? So who killed her? Not Ned, I hope, in some sort of twisted honor killing. No, Ned, don't do it. Or maybe she's in childbirth up there and dies naturally. And Ned takes baby Jon home with him.

Maybe Ramsay will lose interest in Sansa now that he has Rickon the Nutcracker, whom he can set up as puppet Warden of the North. But Osha will be Ramsay's undoing. You heard it here.

Lyanna (until very recently) protected by men Rhaegar assigned to the task, including the greatest swordsman in the 7 Kingdoms. With Rhaegar already dead and Lyanna about to give birth. Protected against Robert, but Ned came first. She'll tell Ned the true story of her affair with Rhaegar, give Jon to Ned and make him swear to tell no one. 

Ned lied about killing Ser Two-Swords. (I'm guessing, to be able to tell Robert that Howland Reed was never there, so only Ned will be responsible for keeping up the much bigger deceptions.) The casting of young Ned was terrific.  

So now it's Jon, Ghost, Davos, Melisandre and the Free Folk setting out to Winterfell, as Ramsay, the Karstarks and the Umbers head for Castle Black -- where Sansa and Brienne are also headed. Will Sansa arrive there to be told by Edd that damn, she just missed Jon? 

And I love your idea that Osha will be the death of Ramsay, janjan. 

Quote

Big Bird is a master manipulator, worming his way into Tommen's confidence. Will he actually get Tommen to side with him against Cersei? That seems to be his plan. And Cersei will have a hard decision to make.

Yes, The High Sparrow sees that Tommen is a sincere, sensitive, fatherless boy who longs for something to believe in that is not his mother.  

43 minutes ago, 90PercentGravity said:

Is there a point to Frankenstein's Mountain beyond being broody and intimidating? I was confused by the trial by combat plan. Who are they wanting to fight?

Cersei seems to have in mind forgoing a trial by the 7 Septons and choosing instead a trial by combat. She'll have the Mountain as her champion again. I think the Faith will choose Tommen.  

So the Dothrami are having a big council of the Khals. I think Dany may lead a Widow's Rebellion, and the women confront the men who made them widows by supplanting their husbands: they'll ask the Khals what their conquests have accomplished for the good of the tribe. Drogon will appear as a friend of the court, maybe perched on one of the horse statues.

[gingerella]

Okay, so GO JON, now you can get some lady fun without the that pesky oath bullshit weighing you down, bro. Seriously, there were enough other NW after Jon was killed, where were all those guys? Why was it only the Free Folk who were there to witness the traitor hangings?  Good for Jon for not backing down on that shit. I thought he was about to when he looked at Olly, but Olly made it easier by looking back at him with so much hate, I think Jon realized there was no other choice but to cut that rope and be done with it.

For all her posturing about her witchcraft, Mel needs to act like she's been there before and not be all OMG I brought you back from the dead, OMG!  I think Jon is leaving the Wall because he is fed up and freaked out at being bright back from the dead but...Mel did say that he was the prince she was seeing in the premonitions, I wonder if that registered in his brain fully yet or not. 

Yeah for a Sam & Co sighting!  I hope the Ladies Tarwell aren't beasts and they treat whatshername and baby well. I can't take anymore rude awakenings a la Ramsey. 

Speaking of...I loved when th Umbers dude was like "fuck that shit, I'll not bend the knee to you you little fuck..." But I also think that dude isn't long for this world, it seems like ANYone that usurps Ramsey dies a horrible death. But damn, how could he turn over Osha and Rickon to Ramsey when he clearly seems to know what a dick Ramsey is?!  Uch, I don't like where this is going, other than a I hope that with Sansa gone, Ramsey will keep Rickon alive and unharmed to buy him forced loyalty from the North.  As for Osha? I hope she guts Ramsey, seriously kills him in an awful way. I big puffy heart Osha and cannot bear to think she will be harmed or worse by that deprived little shitbag. Isnt this this season where we are finally rid of him?!? To the Gods old and new, PLEASE make that happen ASAP.

Pretty sure that Lyanna is being hidden away under guard because she is preggers with Jon...and that Ned will find her giving birth or just having given birth or already dead from childbirth, and so it begins with Jon Snow,

As for the big battle between Ceresei and The Faith, I hadn't thought at all that they might call King Tommen to fight the Mountain? That would be seriously fucked up, but Cersei did reiterate last epi about the witch telling her long ago that all her children would die so it makes sense...That would really suck though, because She will basically be responsible for killing her own son.  And in a horrible way too. Poor kid. But, by doing so, and by killing Tommen off, no matter how unintentional, she wrests control from Marg because Marg won't be"The" Queen anymore, unless the people revolt. The People seemed to adore Marg, so I'm not really sure where all those people are now, or if The Faith have patrols keeping people off the streets of KL.

shit, I am exhausted after watching this episode.

[DirewolfPup]

Aside from the Umbers disappointment (RIP Shaggydog), I enjoyed this episode. Jon's plot could have gone two ways. He could keep fighting at Castle Black or see his own death as a release from his vows, which technically is true.  I, for one, am happy for the latter because of that flashback...

The flashback was amazing. Young Ned, down to the tired scowl, was so perfect. We almost didn't need Bran's "oh that's my father" line of exposition to tell us who he was. A Show is making it very clear who was in that tower (Lyanna) and why it was guarded (baby). The only question remaining is whether Sansa had it right (Lyanna was raped) or A Viewer is right (they loved each other).

We also learned that Bran will not become a tree god. Lucky him. He just needs the full story before being sent on a mission. What is the end-game for Bran? He could help Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryan ascend to the throne and he becomes Warden of the North.

The logistics for how Bran is going to convince basically the world that Jon Snow is the child of Rhegar and Lyanna is going to be a battle fought hard. It wouldn't be hard to just say "uh, I don't believe you" and completely dismiss this story. This happened 30 years ago or so. They wouldn't have any reason to trust a teenager. He could relay the story he just saw to Meera's dad, and that would convince him. That may get you a few believers. Bran could show off his warging skills. But I would be suspicious of the warg who magically sees the throne and all the power going to HIS family. That's rather convenient Bran Muffin!!  It is possible I'm being a tad cynical. After this US election cycle, I'm suspicious of everyone who is vying for power.

[ChocButterfly]

Ugh, noooo the Umbers are traitors!! I did not like that at all! I thought they'd align with Jon to get rid of Ramsey. Plus, I was so happy knowing that at least one Stark was safe and sound. Ugh.

Of course that is Lyanna in the Tower, Ned asked where her sister was and the guards were obvioulsy there for her, not just taking a vacation. I think that kind of confirms Reagher did not kidnap Lyanna, because if not, after he was dead and the Mad King dead and everything, what purpose would the guards have in still keeping Lyanna in the Tower? It only makes sense if they swore Reagher they'd protect his (pregnant) love even after his death. Specially if she was pregnant, cause Robert would then want to kill her and/or the baby. Hmmm, I wish they'd tell us the whole story already.

Speaking of Jon, dude is done taking crap from people, great! Why was he naked when we last saw him he had a little cloth covering his thingy? Also what was the point of such a long scene with Sam? Boring. Why is Tommen such an idiot? Why on earth has Olynna not done anything yet?

[Pallas]

Quote

Young Ned, down to the tired scowl, was so perfect.

 

Cheers, Pup!  

The Sansa/Littlefinger crypt scene was the second of three times someone has referred to Lyanna or the Lyanna/Rhaegar story, to a witness who looked embarrassed for the speaker: Robert to Ned in the crypt, Sansa to Littlefinger in the crypt, Bran to the 3-Eyed Raven. In the last two scenes, the speaker mused, "My father never spoke of her."

No kidding. And when Ned Stark comes across as being taciturn about a particular subject...

Edited May 10, 2016 by Pallas
Because Sansa is not, and never was, Lyanna. People speak of her a lot.

[gingerella]

How could I have forgotten to say last night,

Shaggy Dog, RIP puppy. *sniff* So we are sadly down what now, is it 3 Stark direwolves?  Sansa's Lady, Robb's wolfie, and now Rickon's Shaggy Dog?  We still hope that Arya's Nymeria is MIA somewhere and will come back to meet her one day, and Summer should be still hanging around Root Dude and Bran, he's still alive, yes?  And of course Jon's Ghost is still present.  I remember we once posited that perhaps when a Stark child's wolf dies, it's a sign that that Stark is soon going to die as well, but I suppose Lady's death has proved us wrong, though one could say that Sansa has died many times over as she's been betrayed and defiled repeatedly, but does that count as "death" per se?  I'm thinking not, but one could hope that Sansa is sort of re-born now, with a different purpose and mindset?

As far as Stark children role call goes, Jon, Sansa, Bran, Arya & Rickon are all still alive, the only Stark heir missing is Robb. So it is still possible for Starks to overcome this darkness and prevail in the end...or at least prevail in the North and carve out a new path forward as a clan. I am happy about that small crumb that A Show has provided thus far, but just typing it out makes me fear for Rickon right now...

Thinking about Jon being a real Stark changes a lot doesn't it? I mean, if it's true, then he cant really end up with Dany because she's too related to him, though we all know the fondness Targ's had for one another with their inbreeding. But I don't think Jon would go for that knowingly, unless he got too far into a relationship with Dany some day and then finally found out they were so closely related. I've lost track, would she be his aunt, sort of?

Sam...at least we now know he's for sure going to study magic and I am so excited to see what happens at the Citadel, and to see that place finally! Is it wrong's that I envision it sort of like a darker version of Hogwarts?

Still not sure why the Umbers sold out Rickon and Osha.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Says: Treat Yo' Self

Walk away from your job! Refuse to kneel! Fart in a meeting! No one's going to judge. (Actually, somebody might.)

[ChocButterfly]

I really, really hope this "betrayal" is nothing more than a long con from the Umbers to get rid of Ramsey from the inside. Though I'm not sure how this could play out if he indeed leaves Rickon there. 

One question, can't Bran have a flashback on his own without Root Guy's help? Because if I were him I'd be looking at the whole story. Why didn't Root Guy just let Bran find the truth about things? Why do mystic people always have to be so cryptic about everything instead of just explaining with actual words what the hell is going on?

[Llywela]

Hey, Edd cracked a smile! And so did Jon! I never thought I'd see the day. Even Ginger Wildling (Tormund?) very nearly smiled. And the Small Council! Just when we'd been wondering what was going on with the government of the realm, there it is - looks like Margery's dad What's-His-Name is back from Braavos. I hope he negotiated a nice long extension on the loan, 'cause I'm pretty sure there's no one currently able to repay it.

Also, my god but Rickon has grown! Looked like the same kid, as well - I thought for sure they'd re-cast the part if he ever came back into the story. Osha versus Ramsay could be very interesting, except that I'm now very afraid for her. I think I liked it better when she and Rickon were safely out of the story!

[Anothermi]

I really loved this episode... except for the part where long missing characters appears right after we post about them (I am so sorry Osha and Rickon)

There is so much scope for speculation in it. The very handy "seer" scenes are great, and Bran gets to be our stand in ... "Just a little longer".

GRRM seems to have been stock piling bits of relevant info over the whole series, and we are expected to remember! Here's my attempt at putting the pieces together:

- We start with a small group of men riding toward a stone tower on a hill. Barren landscape, location not mentioned.

- 2 men with a lot of gravitas block them from getting closer.

- Bran reminds us that one of the arriving men is his father and Tree Dude name drops Howland Reed. It was back in S03 that Bran tells Jojen that Ned told a story about Howland Reed saving his life.

- The well armed dudes walk past Bran & Tree Dude. Bran tells us that (the dark haired) one is Ser Arthur Dane, and Tree Dude supplies "the Sword of the Morning". We first heard about HIM from King Joffrey (also S03 I think) flipping through the book of the King's Guard after Jaime returned to King's Landing without his sword hand. (Joffrey mostly does this to then read the lack of honours listed under Jaime's name, because that's what Joffrey did best - belittle). 

-Ned obligingly tells Ser Arthur that he looked for him at the Trident. New info? It means Ned was at the Trident, and IIRC that was the battle where Robert killed Rhaegar. (I always thought Ned was fighting elsewhere which was why he ended up in the Throne room first - guess that spitball missed by a mile.) The other King's Guard (?) states that had they been at the Trident, the Usurper (Robert) would have been under the ground. Ned points out both the Mad King and Rheagar are the ones under the ground and challenges them on their (paraphrasing) dereliction of King's Guard duty to protect their prince. That's the Ned we know, except I think he wouldn't be there if he didn't suspect why they abandoned their duty to their Prince. Ser Arthur, replies with Ned-like honour "Our prince wanted us here." Lying is not an option. Ned asks (what I think he already knows) - "Where is my sister?" Ser Arthur just wishes him well in the wars to come, dons his helmet and utters the Westrosi version of "the game is afoot!" AKA "now it begins". (I love this whole dialog, short, but missing nothing.)

 - we get to see that battle that Bran had heard so much about, but that Howland Reed never spoke to HIS son about. Turns out it wasn't quite the way Bran imagined it to be. Ned would have lost, so it was true that Howland saved his life, but he did it by back-stabbing which went against what Ned taught Bran about honour. (Sorry muffin boy, war is not an honourable enterprise, time you learned that)

- then we get the woman's scream, Ned heading up into the tower and (because he can't see Bran, who BTW wouldn't have even been a lusty glint in Ned's eye at that time) Ned feels what I believe was a cold chill down his back. (he should have paid attention to it)

I'm with everyone else on this, that it's Lyanna up there, giving birth to Jon... if there is any justice in this story.

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

The Sansa/Littlefinger crypt scene was the second of three times someone has referred to Lyanna or the Lyanna/Rhaegar story, to a witness who looked embarrassed for the speaker: Robert to Ned in the crypt, Lyanna to Litlefinger in the crypt, Bran to the Tree God.  The last two, "My father never spoke of her."

And when Ned Stark comes across as being taciturn about a particular subject...

Yes, This! What I found interesting was that Tree Dude really didn't want Bran to learn any more at that point. Same with learning more about Wyllis/Hodor. I've got a big spitball forming due to these cut off points in the pre-history and connected to Pallas' speculation about the next-gen characters taking over the story and Janjan's quote below. We've seen the next-gen Starks, Boltons, Karstarks and this episode, the Humbers take a radically different path than their fathers - the old guard as far as we are concerned, but the ones whose eyes we see this world through. That's not really new in history though. What Robert and Ned et all did probably went against everything their fathers stood for (Rickard Stark went to King's Landing to petition a Mad King for his daughter didn't he?) Ned is young, filled with a sense of self-righteousness that he thinks of as Honour and Justice. Robb made a lot of mistakes as the new Lord Stark, why wouldn't Ned have made just as many - but lived to learn from them perhaps.

This train of thought was stimulated by this post:

21 hours ago, janjan said:

Wanna bet that's Lyanna in the tower? So who killed her? Not Ned, I hope, in some sort of twisted honor killing. No, Ned, don't do it. Or maybe she's in childbirth up there and dies naturally. And Ned takes baby Jon home with him.

I think it is quite likely that Tree Dude cuts off the history lessons at a certain point because to continue would be to show Ned in a negative light - acting impulsively (remember Littlefinger's description of Ned - "Quick temper, slow mind") and making a decision that ends badly for others we might care about (Hodor and Lyanna in the current case). I think it is quite possible that Ned reacted to his sister's story (assuming it IS that she loved Rheagar and voluntarily ran off with him instead of accepting the political-alliance suitor, Robert. Perhaps it is Robb who took after Lyanna, not Arya?) with quick anger at the dishonour to their father's memory - not to mention being the cause of their father and brother's death by fire! - and then, after he had time to think about what he had done - decided to atone for it by caring for her son as his own, taking the dishonour onto himself by passing Jon off as his bastard, oh, and bringing her body home and propagating an "honourable" story of rape and murder by Rheagar. We know Ned is capable of lying for the sake of people he loves. It's possible at that point, he may have loved Robert more than his own family - which he hadn't yet settled into?

I'm prepared, at this point, to even suspect it was some action by Ned that resulted in Wyllis/Hodor's current condition. No body (as opposed to "no one") is all good or all bad - OK, maybe except Ramsey. (I'm even wondering about the name similarity between Ned's "woman" that Robert teased him about - Wylla - and Wyllis?! A drunken Ned could have tried to force Wylla or coerced her in some way and Wyllis tried to stop him? That story is wide open to any possibility.)

When I look back at the story so far, it's one of people holding on to the myths they tell themselves about who was in the right and who was in the wrong to justify the actions they take for their own ends. Much like we do in our world.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

Oh, and I have to say Davos has become my most favourite-ist, best-est character EVER!!!  Mel wants insight from Jon about the after world. Davos kicks her out (the boy is in shock! he alive when he should be dead! - me putting words in his mouth. I heard him say them in my head.)

From the show:

Davos: You were dead. And now you're not. It's completely fucking mad, it seems to me. I can only imagine how it seems to you.

Jon: I did what I thought was right... and I got murdered for it... and now I'm back. Why?

Davos: I don't know. Maybe we'll never know. What does it matter? You go on. You fight for as long as you can; you clean up as much of this shit as you can.

Jon: I don't know how to do that. I thought I did but... I failed.

Davos: GOOD. Now go fail again.

 

Straight talk. No bullshit. Real.  LOVE HIM.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

Come back... I promise I won't go on...and on...and on... (like I did up thread at any rate).

I don't know if I feel more like Gilly - about to be abandoned (again) by Sam, or Lyanna - alone in a stone tower giving birth for the 1st time.  Don't think it's like Lyanna as I'm not in pain of any kind, so it's got to be Gilly. I just open my mouth to show off my book learnin' and everybody get's sick and leaves. Please come back with your spitballs.

I'm hoping someone will remember if we have been informed as to where the Citadel/Old Town is. Gilly said south, but there's south of The North and then there's Dornish South. Gilly said Old Town is supposed to be beautiful. That could place it in Dorne (but put them in a frying pan/fire situation) OR it could be in The Reach - Tyrell lands. Sam's father turned out to be a bannerman of the Tyrells and Sam plans to leave Gilly and Sam Jr. with his mother and sister, so my money's on part-way South.

Don't think we are going to find out where that stone tower is located, but it sure doesn't look like anyplace we've been to before. Arid and rocky. Perhaps it's located on Lannister lands? We haven't actually seen them have we? It would be quite a detour on the way home, but it appeared that 1) the Rebellion was over; and 2) Robert was known to be King (the usurper) but it would explain how Ned could arrive home with his bastard son, Jon, in tow AND his sister's body. Again, this has made me re-arrange my mental pictures of those old events because I had Wylla (despite spitballs flung recently) as being someone who was with Lyanna, or someone Ned hired to care for Jon while he continued on with what was left of the rebellion. The joys of being Unsullied.

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

What is the end-game for Bran? He could help Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryan ascend to the throne and he becomes Warden of the North.

The logistics for how Bran is going to convince basically the world that Jon Snow is the child of Rhegar and Lyanna is going to be a battle fought hard.

It may be that the only person Bran will try to convince is Jon, and that'll be hard enough. Jon loved Ned, loved being Ned's acknowledged son, loved being brother to Ned's children. Suddenly he'll find himself the by-blow of a married father whose wife (Oberyn's sister) and children were slaughtered by the Mountain, at the end of a war waged because Jon's future parents eloped: a war begun when Jon's grandfather Aegon burned alive Jon's grandfather Rickard and uncle Brandon.

Jon's the bastard son of both sides of Robert's Rebellion. I'm not sure he'll want anything to do with the Iron Throne -- except to say, No more Lords; no more broken wheel of Houses.

And for Ned, Jon's middle late uncle? What Jon would now know is that Ned lied to the world about who Jon's parents were, and what they were to one another. Lied to his wife, whose resentment partly motivated Jon to join the Watch. Lied to Jon right up to their final conversation, when he chose to split hairs instead: "You have my blood..." While Jon may understand why Ned lied, he may also feel that the time for Lord When-Next-We-Meet to have spoken of Jon's mother was before both he and Ned were murdered for doing what they thought was right.

This is where Anothermi's view of Bran's visions and the story as a whole may take hold. Bran's job, perhaps, will be to tell Jon that at first, as the visions grew darker, he too had felt that he had lost his father a second time. But only then could he come to know and love the man. 

No more Lords.

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Oh, and I have to say Davos has become my most favourite-ist, best-est character EVER!!! 

Me too! I want Davos to be safe always. It's telling that both Davos and Melisandre have transferred their allegiance so completely to Jon. I think both desperately need someone to believe in, after Stannis, and Jon makes an excellent substitute. Where will he go now? I'm guessing they will follow, and the Wildlings, as well - poor Edd will have to stay with with the Watch, friendless.

Young Ned was so perfectly Ned it almost hurt. Thank you for the history run-down, Anothermi! Much needed, as my recollection of small details is patchy, at best. I did re-watch the very first episode the other week, just to hurt myself with how young and innocent (and alive) everyone was back then. There's always such a gap between what really happened and what history records, even with the best will in the world - I'm fascinated to find out the rest of the story at long last, hopefully very soon!

[gingerella]

Add me to the Davos Love Boat!  But one thing perplexes me...does Davos actually know yet that Mel burnt Shireen alive? I don't remember her confessing that to him and I would think if he found out, he would for sure try to kill her, no?  Maybe she told him during a battle scene where I was wincing behind my hands, wuss Spitball Waller that I am...I miss a lot of nuances that way.

[Anothermi]

I don't think Davos needed to be told. He would have been worried about the possibility when he was sent away, he would have learned about it soon after it happened. News like that cannot be kept a secret. Everyone for miles around would know.

He knows what the "Woman" did to Shireen, but Davos is a practical man - which is what I love about him and shows so well with that scene I quoted. He cannot change the past, and he's never been a vengeful man. He just keeps on being the best man he can be. It's a fitting tribute to the child who believed in him.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

I'm not so sure Davos does know - we certainly haven't seen him finding out. The events since the end of the last season have all happened very fast - Melisandre certainly didn't tell him when she arrived back at Castle Black, she let him believe Shireen died during that last battle, and there's been no sign of any of Stannis's deserting soldiers fleeing to Castle Black, so I'm guessing they all headed south instead. And everything has happened so fast since then, Jon's murder and resurrection, that I don't think Davos has had any opportunity to find out the truth. Maybe that revelation is still to come, no doubt at the worst possible moment - dividing Jon's new allies just when he needs them most, probably.

[gingerella]

I am loving the roll you're on anothermi, but I am inclined to think more along the lines of Llywela right now. I think Davos doesn't know yet, and he just assumes she died in the battle fallout. But when he finds out HOW she died, yeah, I think that's going to be Mel's undoing (because it appeared to me that Davos loved Shireen like a daughter and I don't think it'll roll off his back when he learns Mel burned her alive), and possibly will leave them unable to resurrect anyone else in a pinch...or perhaps Davos will have to choose, either kill Mel in retaliation for Shireen's death, or let her live so she can hang around and possibly resurrect Jon if he gets killed again.  If I know Davos, he will choose the latter for the greater good. I leave him.

Edited May 10, 2016 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

Wylla and Wyllis. We've discussed at length the Stark children names and how they are all derived from other important people in their lives (Robb with Robert, Jon with Jon Aaryn?, Sansa with ???, Arya with Jon Aaryn, Bran with Brandon, and Rickon with Rickard?). The North in general could have this sort of traditional naming scheme, not just the Starks. If we follow that logic, could Wylla be Wyllis' mother?  She could have done a favor for Ned by taking care of baby Jon Snow or was possibly Lyanna's handmaiden. Someone found out and hurt her son, Wyllis, as payment before killing her. Maybe Hodor is the result of attempted murder on Wyllis, but he survived. That someone could have been Ned. Ned doesn't seem to be the killing to keep secrets type. Assuming this spitball is true (ha), the only person in the story that has the motivation and has given us reason to think they knew the real story is Littlefinger.  Varys knows things, but he doesn't murder. Littlefinger's knowing snicker at Sansa for presuming that Lyanna was raped just screams "I know something you don't know." Maybe LF knows about JS, maybe he doesn't. But I do think he knows that Lyanna and Rheghar eloped.

That was so out of left field. Too far down that rabbit hole. If 1% of this is true, I will eat my hat.

[Llywela]

42 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

Wylla and Wyllis. We've discussed at length the Stark children names and how they are all derived from other important people in their lives (Robb with Robert, Jon with Jon Aaryn?, Sansa with ???, Arya with Jon Aaryn, Bran with Brandon, and Rickon with Rickard?). The North in general could have this sort of traditional naming scheme, not just the Starks. If we follow that logic, could Wylla be Wyllis' mother?

I wondered if Ned had just invented the name Wylla as his cover story for Jon's (fake) mother, but used Wyllis the stable boy's name as inspiration, for whatever reason - if only lack of inventiveness, since Ned doesn't strike me as the most imaginative of souls!

I'll be surprised if Wyllis is at the tower with Lyanna (we all know it's her up there), but I really do wonder if he knows more than anyone ever suspected - I was thinking perhaps he heard or saw something on the night Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, rather than having gone anywhere with them. I reckon there'll be a twist or two in the story still, once Young!Ned reaches the top of that tower. We've all speculated about what the truth of Lyanna's story and Jon's parentage might be, and perhaps we'll all be proved right with no surprises at all, but I suspect there'll be a twist in the tail that no one anticipated!

ETA: that's a point about Sansa. Who is she named after, since all her siblings are namesakes of someone or other that we can trace? I'd like to think she's named for someone in Cat's family, since it doesn't seem fair that Ned gets to name all his kids after his own loved ones, with Cat's family not represented at all!

Edited May 10, 2016 by Llywela

[janjan]

Quote

Anothermi: I just open my mouth to show off my book learnin' and everybody get's sick and leaves. Please come back with your spitballs.

I love your book learnin', Anothermi. And look - nobody went away! BTW, twice you spelled honor as honour - are you a Brit?

Llywela gets the coveted Pun of the Year Award: "Regarding the truth of Lyanna's story and Jon's parentage ... I suspect there'll be a twist in the tail."

Hee!

[gingerella]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

I wondered if Ned had just invented the name Wylla as his cover story for Jon's (fake) mother, but used Wyllis the stable boy's name as inspiration, for whatever reason - if only lack of inventiveness, since Ned doesn't strike me as the most imaginative of souls!

Yeah, I'm sort of leaning this way too Llywela, we seem to be of similar thought process so far this season. It seems "suspect" that Ned's baby momma was named Wylla and then Hodor's real name is Wyllis. I too, think Ned, for lack of an inspired lie, just used the feminine version of Wyllis' name in the story he told everyone about Jon Show's parentage.  I also don't think Ned was the type to harm someone like Wyllis either, I think perhaps there was an accident...

[Pallas]

On 5/9/2016 at 5:26 PM, Anothermi said:

When I look back at the story so far, it's one of people holding on to the myths they tell themselves about who was in the right and who was in the wrong to justify the actions they take for their own ends. Much like we do in our world.

This post is so rich, Anothermi. I keep thinking about it. Right now it seems all four Stark children we know well are confronting that question of myth and truth. The Starks in training: Bran is being re-introduced to Ned, without Ned's interlinear -- unsullied; no "INSIDE HOUSE STARK" narrated by Lord Eddard, following the big scenes. Arya has been forced to examine her own mythmaking, working blind and cudgeled for each self-deception. The Starks in the world: Sansa has spent five seasons flayed of her illusions, and then now takes on the possibility of hope awakened -- her brothers and sister alive; a champion who might prove true. Jon thought good was good and dead was dead. He's re-thinking.

And what if this saga is doing the same with us, about Ned, as Anothermi suggested? Since Ned died, we've honored him more the longer we've been without him. We know what's great about him. So did his family, friends, allies, onlookers and opponents (excepting Joffrey, Tywin and Littlefinger). But what if the story is doing something really bold: not only taking five-plus seasons to begin to tell Ned's story backwards, but in a different way from most?

Most backward narratives show the tragic figure at his worst, at his end, done in by his frailties. Ned was done in by his strengths, by what was most admirable and lovable. Sure, he wasn't the most flexible of men, or the fleetest. He should have listened to the panicked boy Watchman who saw a Walker. He should have stayed at Winterfell. He shouldn't have bought a lovesick teenage girl a doll. He botched the self-appointed task of seeing Cersei and the kids into exile. He lost Robert's trust (for the right reason: more kids to save!) and trusted Littlefinger. He left one daughter with the fiend who killed him, another daughter in the crowd that cheered his death, three sons imperiled and one nephew thinking he was a son.

Still. We loved him for his principles, which seemed as innate as how he loved, and how he took his eggs. Ned who cared about what was right, and who did what had to be done, especially if it was thankless, hard and to his disadvantage. ("The Night's Watch, you say?  Oh, the gods are good.") 

But what if the storytellers are taking the chance of scrolling back with Ned to show us a hero -- not a villain -- who wasn't always? Who once was impulsive, angry, traumatized by war and arrogant with victory? Or just young, and pissed off that a Mad King burnt his father, his brother and his plans for his own future? The second son once free to woo a bride to his liking, Do the Eight or get a tan? Ned the Merry! The Prince Harry of Westeros!

A redemption story told front to back, more like an apostle's than a hero's. Showing us, as Anothermi suggests, a man who may have done something pretty terrible when he found Lyanna and heard her story. Terrible because rash, reactive, driven by fear and frustration? A little mad?  A lot like a tantrum?

Or what janjan bravely said up top, sparking Anothermi's post:

On 5/9/2016 at 11:10 PM, janjan said:

So who killed her? Not Ned, I hope, in some sort of twisted honor killing.

I still hope not, no matter how good a piece of story-telling it might be. But it fits. Ned the Prig, no more and no less than a well-raised man of his times. A young lord who hadn't yet learned the difference between honor and principle. Who spent the rest of his life still making mistakes and miztvahs on either side of that question -- honor here, principle there -- to the end. Killing his sister (?), protecting her child by deceiving wife and king, killing children, saving children, serving Robert, defying Robert...until he died lying, sure of why.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Pallas
Spring cleaning.

[Llywela]

I really hope it wasn't Ned who killed Lyanna. Every time we've speculated that she may have been Jon's mother, I always kind of assumed she died in childbirth, leaving Ned to cover up the whole thing.

But then again, I did predict a twist in the tail of the story - surely it won't go down the road of the most predictable?

[janjan]

Ned's posthumous "unmasking" is looking more and more likely. Remember how shocked Bran was to learn how the guy died - "Stabbed in the back?!"  We've been assuming since forever that if Ned protected Lyanna's baby, it was from love of her. But what if it was actually from guilt at orphaning him? A twist in the tale indeed. But Pallas makes a strong argument that A Show has become all about  the dashing of illusions, including ours. Perhaps [ spit incoming! ] the reason Root Dude stopped the playback when he did was that it would be too much for Bran to endure all at once.

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Pallas said:

A redemption story told front to back, more like an apostle's than a hero's. Showing us, as Anothermi suggests, a man who may have done something pretty terrible when he found Lyanna and heard her story. Terrible because rash, reactive, driven by fear and frustration? A little mad?  A lot like a tantrum?

Or what janjan bravely said up top, sparking Anothermi's post:

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 8:10 PM, janjan said:

So who killed her? Not Ned, I hope, in some sort of twisted honor killing.

I still hope not, no matter how good a piece of story-telling it might be. But it fits. Ned the Prig, no more and no less than a well-raised man of his times. A young lord who hadn't yet learned the difference between honor and principle. Who spent the rest of his life still making mistakes and miztvahs on either side of that question -- honor here, principle there -- to the end. Killing his sister (?), protecting her child by deceiving wife and king, killing children, saving children, serving Robert, defying Robert...until he died lying, sure of why.

*claps slowly and with deep appreciation*

Pallas, that? Was a work of mental art! I am both in love with and repelled by the thought that we may see Ned Stark, keeper of the Faith and all things Right, unmasked to be as much a monster as, perhaps Joffrey was in a different way. Whoa! I need to brace myself for this if it is going to happen. I do love the idea of telling Ned Stark's story backwards, and keeping us waiting 5+ seasons to find out he wasn't the dude we all knew him to be. A Show never gives it to us gently, does it, so why should this be any different?  This season is fast becoming The Season of Reckoning.  Reckoning between what each character thought their life was about, to a transition, a pivot, a shift in the cosmos where they now see a new path laid before them in a world where you are born, live and die on the one path you fell out of your mother's womb on to. Again I say, whoa!

45 minutes ago, janjan said:

Perhaps [ spit incoming! ] the reason Root Dude stopped the playback when he did was that it would be too much for Bran to endure all at once.

Janjan, I think this is really why Root Dude keeps pulling Bran back from further exploration every time he takes him on another Its a Wonderful Life flashback. If Bran knows his father actually was a shit deep down, and did despicable things, perhaps Root Dude is afraid that Bran will not be willing to do whatever it is he is destined to do now. Or that he will lose his powers to do whatever he's about to embark on if he is grief stricken over learning the truth about his father, or his family in general.

I wonder, is it at all possible that Rhaegar is not Jon's father and something more heinous happened, like Lyanna was impregnated by her other uncle?  I doubt it, but I am trying to think of any other scenario where Ned might become so enraged he kills her, either by accident or purposely...maybe she is somehow to blame for her father and uncle being burned alive by the Mad King, and when Ned finds this out he is so enraged that he chokes her, and by the time he comes to his senses she is already dead, leaving behind newborn Jon?  When you think about it, the hell he put Catelyn through by having her raise what she thought was his bastard son, that was a fairly shitty thing to do, so Ned aint all sunshine and unicorn farts...

ETA: Really, when you think about it, all the younger generation are right now paying for their parents sins...They are trying to climb out of this quicksand of shit, but the past keeps pulling them downward, and yet they keep trying to get it right...Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Arya, Bran, soon Sansa...not sure what will become of Rickon...

Edited May 11, 2016 by gingerella

[DirewolfPup]

I'm loving the idea of Ned being a horrible shit during and after the rebellion. So shitty that he spends the rest of his life atoning for essentially murdering his sister. That would certainly explain why he was completely willing to own the "shame" of having a bastard. You killed that baby's mother, his sister. At that point, the LEAST you could do is raise him as your own. Then it would seem that Ned was a honor-less, half-assing douchebag. Even if this spitball doesn't turn out to be true, it's fun to think about.

The title of "Oathbreaker" could be referring to Ned, not Jon.

Edited May 11, 2016 by DirewolfPup
learning to spell

[Anothermi]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

This post is so rich, Anothermi. I keep thinking about it. Right now it seems all four Stark children we know well are confronting that question of myth and truth. The Starks in training: Bran is being re-introduced to Ned, without Ned's interlinear --unsullied; no "INSIDE HOUSE STARK" narrated by Lord Eddard, following the big scenes. Arya is enrolled in a has been forced to examine her own mythmaking, working blind and cudgeled for each self-deception. The Starks in the world: Sansa has spent five seasons flayed her illusions stripped bare, and then now takes on the possibility of hope awakened -- her brothers and sister alive; a champion who might prove true. Jon thought good was good and dead was dead. He's re-thinking.

Thanks you so much, Pallas, for unpacking my post. There seemed to be so much crammed into that one little scene from the past and it wasn't possible to drill down and expand on all the thoughts/speculations that came flooding into my head. It's so good to see you completely understood what I was trying to get at. And you're elaboration was so beautifully put (although I would not have expected less from you, it is always such a gift to read it). I've only quoted part of the post, but the whole thing read like you were inside my head (but more eloquent). I particularly liked your use of "backward narrative" and "interlinear" to describe the story telling. Good words.

4 hours ago, janjan said:

Perhaps [ spit incoming! ] the reason Root Dude stopped the playback when he did was that it would be too much for Bran to endure all at once.

This was a whole other part of that back narrative that sticks in my head and makes me wonder about the - for lack of a better word - magical dimension of this tale. I, too, felt that Root Dude stopped the "playback" because he thought it would be too much for Bran to endure, and that was what sparked my big speculation (along with your provocative - what if Ned killed her?) I wondered what might be "too much" for Bran to the point it could derail Root Dude's plans for Bran?

But something else that struck me was how ... frantic (perhaps?) Root Dude seemed as Bran ignored his "that's enough for now" and moved to interact with his (future) father by calling out to him. There was a new element added right then. Ned heard him, or felt him. One point in time past and another point from time future colliding!

That's heading in a Sci-Fi direction, although at this point it's also part of Fantasy. Tree Dude has twice warned Bran that if he stays too long he may never come back. What if that is because he could end up altering the past and therefor his current existence? 

Oh dear. I really should quit thinking about this. I fear I am disappearing down the rabbit hole and may not find my own way back.

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

If Bran knows his father actually was a shit deep down, and did despicable things, perhaps Root Dude is afraid that Bran will not be willing to do whatever it is he is destined to do now.

Exactly. Except I think Root Dude's fear is not that Bran will see Ned's actions as despicable, but instead will view his father as being "a shit deep down" which, in a black and white world, means everything his father did must have been bad and wrong. I don't think Root Dude is about exposing Evil Incarnate but more that no one is All Good or All Bad.

Ned IS what we saw at the beginning. He is the sum of the actions and decisions he took over the course of his life. He doesn't become a bad person because of bad decisions - he's made such a variety of those as Pallas pointed out.  So he may have done despicable things - everyone appears to have done that in the wars -  but not everyone continued on a path of the likes of Roose, Joffrey or Ramsay. But those guys too, come from their life experiences/decisions since they were born. When I see baby/childhood pictures of some of the most hated people from our recent history... or serial killers for instance, I don't see evil incarnate I just see a child, and I wonder how did they came to do the horrible things we know them for?

To break the wheel all these next-gen characters have to be able to see the whole picture ("everything" as Root Dude tells Bran) not just the parts that justify the stories they already believe in.

1 hour ago, DirewolfPup said:

I'm loving the idea of Ned being a horrible shit during and after the rebellion. So shitty that he spends the rest of his life atoning for essentially murdering his sister. That would certainly explain why he was completely willing to own the "shame" of having a bastard. You kill that baby's mother, his sister. At the point, the LEAST you could do is raise him as your own. Then it would seem that Ned was a honor-less, half-assing douchebag. Even if this spitball doesn't turn out to be true, it's fun to think about.

The title of "Oathbreaker" could be referring to Ned, not Jon.

Thank you, DirewolfPup. I frequently have trouble connecting the episode title with the content of the episode. It could mean Jon (although it has been suggested that technically he hasn't broken his oath - a point I agree with) so I find this suggestion resonant - especially in light of our discussion.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Anothermi

[janjan]

Oathbreaker also sort of refers to Umber, although it was technically his father's oath to be loyal to the Starks, not his. But Umber is too minor a character to name an ep after, so that suggests it does indeed refer to Ned. Jon's in the clear, oath-wise, by getting dead.

[Anothermi]

I'm with you on it not referring to Umber, janjan.  GreatJon Umber didn't automatically transfer his loyalty from Eddard to Robb Stark. I'd assume this Umber feels the same and gives his loyalty to the person he believes merits it. It is an interesting twist that he refused to kneel and swear fealty. However, I don't remember the GreatJon doing that to Robb except when Robb got declared "the King in the North". Even that is not a firm memory, but it seemed to me everyone was kneeling to Robb in that scene.

 

On a completely different note, though. I have a problem with one part of the Episode (it's not the fate of Rickon and Osha - I refuse to even think about that because I'm still walking around with an Ice Sword in my back for having allowed myself a positive spitball about them. Ugh.)

It's Arya's development. I've always thought of Arya as quick on the uptake, so while I can see her being completely helpless when an-other-girl first came to spar with her, it just doesn't ring true for me that she wouldn't have improved a tiny bit by the next day. She lost her sight, yes, but not all of her senses! I didn't want her to go all Jedi Knight on us but I believe we should have seen incremental improvements so that her transformation this episode wasn't such a Great Leap Forward in such a Compress Space of Time.

Other than that, I approve of her journey to No-One-Hood.

[gingerella]

6 hours ago, Anothermi said:

But something else that struck me was how ... frantic (perhaps?) Root Dude seemed as Bran ignored his "that's enough for now" and moved to interact with his (future) father by calling out to him. There was a new element added right then. Ned heard him, or felt him. One point in time past and another point from time future colliding!

That's heading in a Sci-Fi direction, although at this point it's also part of Fantasy. Tree Dude has twice warned Bran that if he stays too long he may never come back. What if that is because he could end up altering the past and therefor his current existence? 

Oh WOW, I just got chills with the direction this is going...What if Bran's magical power includes the ability to go backwards in time and actually step in and alter the course of history?  Young Ned clearly stopped when Bran called out to him. We assume he didn't actually hear someone call out "Dad" or "Father", but something -  a chill, a vibe - whatever you want to call it - hit Ned and he stopped in his tracks and looked for something or someone before continuing up the stairway. That told Root Dude that Bran can indeed be heard on some level if going back in time.  What if Bran has the ability to go back in time and reverse actions, like if he saw whatever Ned is about to do up in that tower with Lyanna - kill her perhaps - Bran might feel compelled to step into history and save Lyanna, thus Jon would never grow up and become Lord Commander of the Nights' Watch, and he likely wouldn't end up perhaps being The One who saves everyone from the WWs et al.  That? I could see bringing frantic fear to Root Dude because then all his waiting for Bran and tutoring Bran on carrying out his destiny would then be for naught....Oh wow...I feel dizzy thinking about this...

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

I really hope it wasn't Ned who killed Lyanna. Every time we've speculated that she may have been Jon's mother, I always kind of assumed she died in childbirth, leaving Ned to cover up the whole thing.

I do too, Llywela, and I think I still think he doesn't! Based not only on my love for Ned, which I think would survive his killing Lyanna, but on my memory of Ned in the first two episodes. Specifically, the scenes with Robert in the crypt, with Robert during their picnic on the road to King's Landing, and with Jon as they parted.  

Off Sean Bean's portrayal and some terrifically loaded dialogue, it was easy enough right then to surmise that Jon was the son of Ned's dead sister, by the Targareyn who supposedly kidnapped and killed her. What we saw from Ned was (1) wincing embarrassment for Robert, (2) obstinacy, (3) some shame at his own deception -- dishonorable and maybe-treasonous, and (3) hard-borne regret at his prevarication with Jon. But not guilt. And I think if Ned killed Lyanna, we'd have seen his guilt that Lyanna had died, because Lyanna should not have died. Instead it seems to me we saw Ned's heavy, stoical acceptance that Lyanna had died as Lyanna had lived.   

But then...

12 hours ago, janjan said:

Ned's posthumous "unmasking" is looking more and more likely. Remember how shocked Bran was to learn how the guy died - "Stabbed in the back?!"  We've been assuming since forever that if Ned protected Lyanna's baby, it was from love of her. But what if it was actually from guilt at orphaning him? A twist in the tale indeed.

Well put again, janjan. I agree, that with all the foreshadowing, "Hold on! You mean, my father lied about my Aunt Lyanna's affair and Cousin Jon's origins, to protect the newborn babe from Dany's fate, or worse?" isn't dire enough.

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

I am both in love with and repelled by the thought that we may see Ned Stark, keeper of the Faith and all things Right, unmasked to be as much a monster as, perhaps Joffrey was in a different way.

I don't think I'll see Ned as a monster, gingerella, even if we do see him kill Lyanna. Ned is still Ned, a good man, as a whole, as well as great. Just more a man and less an epic. A man of sins as well as frailties. Or as Sherlock's Sherlock said, "I may be on the side of the angels. But don't think, for one moment, that I am one of them."

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

Really, when you think about it, all the younger generation are right now paying for their parents sins...They are trying to climb out of this quicksand of shit, but the past keeps pulling them downward, and yet they keep trying to get it right...

Beautiful. "What's dead never dies," says the Drowned God. Unless you stop drowning (as the RootDude/Raven warned Bran), and come up to the light. Then you live.  

9 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Even if this spitball doesn't turn out to be true, it's fun to think about.

So true! Right or wrong, janjan's spitball holds together. And it's the ballsiest.

9 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

The title of "Oathbreaker" could be referring to Ned, not Jon.

Oathbreaker's lousy with 'em. The Watch conspirators; Sam (slept with Gillie and is adoptive father of her child); the Harpie turned informant; Dany (the Khal's merry widow, off the reservation), Cersei and Jaime (old news, but still); Ramsay, Karstark and Umber; the King's Guardsmen who protected Lyanna; Jon and Ned, as the Usurper's general and as the player to be named later.

8 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I think Root Dude's fear is not that Bran will see Ned's actions as despicable, but instead will view his father as being "a shit deep down" which, in a black and white world, means everything his father did must have been bad and wrong. I don't think Root Dude is about exposing Evil Incarnate but more that no one is All Good or All Bad.

Ned IS what we saw at the beginning. He is the sum of the actions and decisions he took over the course of his life..{snip}...

To break the wheel all these next-gen characters have to be able to see the whole picture ("everything" as Root Dude tells Bran) not just the parts that justify the stories they already believe in.

Double, double-forearm centurions' embrace, Anothermi. This story's heard all the stories. 

[Anothermi]

3 hours ago, gingerella said:

Oh WOW, I just got chills with the direction this is going...What if Bran's magical power includes the ability to go backwards in time and actually step in and alter the course of history?  Young Ned clearly stopped when Bran called out to him. We assume he didn't actually hear someone call out "Dad" or "Father", but something -  a chill, a vibe - whatever you want to call it - hit Ned and he stopped in his tracks and looked for something or someone before continuing up the stairway. That told Root Dude that Bran can indeed be heard on some level if going back in time.  What if Bran has the ability to go back in time and reverse actions, like if he saw whatever Ned is about to do up in that tower with Lyanna - kill her perhaps - Bran might feel compelled to step into history and save Lyanna, thus Jon would never grow up and become Lord Commander of the Nights' Watch, and he likely wouldn't end up perhaps being The One who saves everyone from the WWs et al.  That? I could see bringing frantic fear to Root Dude because then all his waiting for Bran and tutoring Bran on carrying out his destiny would then be for naught....Oh wow...I feel dizzy thinking about this...

Although I flung this spitball I would be really unhappy with the story if it went down that road. It may be possible, but it would be so jarring to add a Sci-Fi element. The story so far hangs together but adding that would really be over-egging the pudding. ;-)

Another possibility for the frantic look - along with the admonishment to never stay too long - may be just that it could undermine Bran's already fragile health.  Jojen also warned Bran - not to stay too long inside Summer -  or he would forget who he is and never return (and the Bran we know would dry up and become a crispy critter - with opaque eyes). I know that was Warging, but but watching others live their lives while in a trance state isn't that much different. For all we know, Jojen may have been the one Root Dude was first waiting for but Jojen didn't have a mentor to teach him the pitfalls of his gift and overstayed his time travel visits. Perhaps that's why he became weak and epileptic? When Bran asked Jojen what he saw - Jojen replied "the only thing that was important - you." (or words to that effect). He could have meant he found his replacement so that he could complete the mission? 

We don't actually know what the mission is, just that Root Dude has to show Bran "everything" in order to accomplish it. Why do I fear that while Bran may get to know "everything"... We will not. :-(

[gingerella]

Maybe Root dude's concern is as simple as knowing that Bran would not want to come back to the living if he could run free in the past and not be hindered by being a cripple in the present...

[DirewolfPup]

It's a little late in A Show to introduce sci-fi elements like time travel, alternate timelines, etc. Considering we have political thrillers, dragons, magic, resurrections, historical parallels, etc to contend with, I would expect A Show won't start messing with the past. My hope is A Show only put Bran calling out to Ned and Ned hearing it for two reasons. 1) to give watchers an indication that highlights how powerful Bran is. We've been told this by Jojen and tree man, but we haven't seen much proof of this. We saw Bran warg Hodor and now this. I can't think of another instance, but that may be the grog talking.  2) to give us sappy watchers a glimmer of hope that one of the Stark children may be able to speak to their father again. It's a cheap ploy, but effective.

[gingerella]

I've been thinking about Root Dude's franticness in not allowing Bran to go any further up the stairs to the tower where we're pretty sure Lyanna and baby Jon are.  I wonder if the reason isn't because Root Dude doesn't want Bran to see what Ned does to Lyanna, but rather, what Ned does to Wyllis, turning him into Hodor perhaps?  I mean, Ned was able to keep that story up that Jon was his bastard son all those years without anyone spilling the beans otherwise. And while there is always a teensy tiny chance it's true, here at the Wall, we're all fairly certain Jon's parents are Lyanna and Rhaegar.  So...perhaps Ned gets to Lyanna too late or watches her die during childbirth, and he hatches this story to tell everyone, except the only thing that might blow up his story is that Lyanna's faithful stableboy Wyllis is there and he knows the real story.  So Ned does something to inflict enough of a blow to Wyllis that it doesn't kill him (maybe that's his goal but he doesn't succeed?), and Wyllis becomes Hodor...Ned's secret forever locked in his brain.  I don't know, I'm just hawking loogies to see what sticks to the Wall...

[ChocButterfly]

Call me a sceptic, but I think we're overthinking this. Probably the  reason why Root Guy was so frantic about not letting Bran see what happened in the tower is just because the show doesn't want us to know....yet. It's as simple as that.

I'd like to believe there's a bigger explanation, but at the end of the day we'll see that he'll tell Bran either way and just say he couldn't show him because he wasn't "ready". That's how it always goes, I mean why didn't Jojen wasn't clearer with Bran? Why does Root Guy keeps being cryptic and show him bits and pieces instead of just explaining the whole thing to him?

[Pallas]

Not to be the results of a blue-ribbon panel, but what if both...I'm sure you're right, Butterfly, that A Show wasn't ready, whether or not Bran might be. And I bet you're right, gingerella, that at least part of the reason Root Dude ostensibly fears Bran won't be ready, is that one consequence of the secret involves harm to Hodor.

Hodor the Little Man (as the Sparrow would put it, acknowledging the irony with that half-smile of his.) Hodor the brave, perceptive and true-blue. A Ser in serf's clothing. Hodor who is right there, as they say on TV, still serving the Starks as Bran's legs. Hodor who Bran, too, has used: as a soldier, killing other soldiers, and who hated it. Maybe what he hated were the memories.

[gingerella]

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

A Ser in serf's clothing. Hodor who is right there, as they say on TV, still serving the Starks as Bran's legs. Hodor who Bran, too, has used: as a soldier, killing other soldiers, and who hated it. Maybe what he hated were the memories.

Yessss! This really resonates with me.  I  think we're on to something here - at least partially - with this Hodor thinking...after I wrote the above post yesterday I kept on thinking about it, and really, Bran never had any real life relationship with his Aunt Lyanna. She was long gone when he was born so while seeing her die might be upsetting to Bran, it isn't connected to any real life relationship he had with her.  I think seeing harm come to Hodor via Ned would be way more upsetting to Bran given his relationship with Hodor no. Hodor has literally carried Bran's life in his part-giant hands. Remember when Hodor was feeling antsy about something back when they were hiding in that hay house or whatever it was back in, what was it, S2 or S3?  Right before they decided that Rickon and Osha would go to the Umbers and the Scooby Gang would continue North?  I cannot remember what Hodor was getting agitated about, but the only way to quiet him and not have their location revealed was for Bran to warg into Hodor, wasn't it?  Does anyone remember what set Hodor off in that scene?  I wonder if it'll give us a clue to our current spitballing...if it was am impending violence or fighting that might have pinged some distant horrible memory locked inside Hodor's mind...

I am looking at Hodor soooo differently right now.  Firstly, knowing he wasn't always "Hodor" is one revelation in itself. But thinking he was this loyal soldier, and as Pallas so aptly put it, a Ser in serf's clothing, makes me feel so much more for this character other than simply being the conveyance for a little Lord Stark. I wonder if all this spitballing is true, if there is some way to return Wyllis to Hodor's body?

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 8:57 PM, 90PercentGravity said:

Is there a point to Frankenstein's Mountain beyond being broody and intimidating? 

90, I think if, as others have said above, A Show is setting up a grand showdown trial by combat for Cersei's trial, and IF the Sparrow chooses King Tommen to fight for the Kingdom, then yeah, the menacing Frankemonster goes up against little, meek and mild Tommen, who do you think will come out of that one?  No doubt Cersei's prophecy from that witch when she was a girl will come true - she will have 3 children and all will die...sort of poignant that Cersei's holier than thou attitude will be the undoing of her last child.

Edited May 14, 2016 by gingerella

[janjan]

I'm liking this theory (that Ned cold-cocked Hodor) more than my original thought, that Ned killed Lyanna. I could see where he might kill her, given all the blood he'd seen spilled to rescue her from her kidnapper and then finding that she went willingly. Fit of rage ensues. But even in a fit or rage, could he really kill his beloved sister?  No, probably not. But bonking Hodor to keep him quiet, that is in some ways even worse. It would be a cold, pre-meditated act perpetrated against an innocent. And Bran would definitely not like to see it.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Remember when Hodor was feeling antsy about something back when they were hiding in that hay house or whatever it was back in, what was it, S2 or S3?  Right before they decided that Rickon and Osha would go to the Umbers and the Scooby Gang would continue North?  I cannot remember what Hodor was getting agitated about, but the only way to quiet him and not have their location revealed was for Bran to warg into Hodor, wasn't it?  Does anyone remember what set Hodor off in that scene?  I wonder if it'll give us a clue to our current spitballing...if it was am impending violence or fighting that might have pinged some distant horrible memory locked inside Hodor's mind...

Good thought, Gingerella. Since the last time we saw Bran and the Muffins was season 3 (until this season) I went searching there. Unfortunately for me I found the scene in episode 9 - The Rains of Castermere (aka the Red Wedding). Luckily that scene came before the RW.

They passed a broken down windmill just as a storm was brewing. They went inside to shelter from the storm. There was thunder and that was what disturbed Hodor initially. They heard a sound and it was one rider followed by more, passing underneath. These were 1- the horse breeder that Jon tried to convince the Wildlings to spare and 2 - the Wildlings following him on the horses they stole from him. (Clearly Jon was not successful convincing them.)

Hodor appeared to get more agitated by the thunder after knowing there might be a fight (my opinion with hindsight) and the little band were afraid his sounds would expose them to the Wildings. That was when Bran first warged into Hodor. It was brief, but effective.

So, on the face of it, it was the thunder that bothered Hodor. But that doesn't mean the addition of a possible fight after riders arrived didn't bring up a "distant horrible memory". Kudos, Ging.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

41 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Hodor appeared to get more agitated by the thunder after knowing there might be a fight (my opinion with hindsight) and the little band were afraid his sounds would expose them to the Wildings. That was when Bran first warged into Hodor. It was brief, but effective.

So, on the face of it, it was the thunder that bothered Hodor. But that doesn't mean the addition of a possible fight after riders arrived didn't bring up a "distant horrible memory". Kudos, Ging.

Hmmm, well let's see what we learn soon.  Maybe there was a storm that came up right around the time shit was gettin' real up in the tower (and we were stopped from seeing it before Root Dude ended that little excursion) and that's why Hodor associated that with anxiety?  I hope A Show delves further into this storyline because I grow a bit tired of some of the constant never-ending storylines like Cersei vs. the World. That shit gets old season after season without resolution. Ditto Ramsey, the evilest evil that ever eviled in evileville. A Show like to take some things too far (yeah, I'm looking at you Joff) and A Viewer gets annoyed. Let's explore this storyline A Show, it is new and interesting!

[DirewolfPup]

Hodor was equally nervous when the Bran Clan were captured at Crasters. I think it was just being scared, not distant fighting memories. That seems like a long shot.

[Anothermi]

Just a couple of random things...

Qyburn has clearly taken over Varys role in King's Landing. He has taken over the Little Birds (which are now confirmed to be children and now I don't know why I kept thinking it was also adults because there were enough clues to indicate he only 'employed' children - conversations with Tyrion and possibly others that I've forgotten). He's also got maester's skills which, to my mind, gives him a bit of an edge on Varys... BUT... does it bind him closer to those he serves? Or does it just make him a bit more dangerous than Varys? Does Qyburn, too, "serve the realm" or is he a bit more self serving? We did get a repeat scene about the fact that he was expelled as a maester (Paycelle at the small council).

Cersei wants to get the little bird network re-established in Dorne, in Highgarden and in the North. It stands out that she didn't ask for them in Lannister Lands, or the Vale...  Seems to me that Qyburn has enough smarts to track Littlefinger's movements, but will he?

The other random thing also relates to the little birds - sorta. Mountainstein featured in the scene with the Little Birds. Qyburn assured them Ser Gregor was friends with all Qyburn's friends and assured Jaime that "the monster" understood quite enough. At that point I wondered if he too had become a bird... Big Bird! so to speak. (™ Sesame Street) <sorry couldn't resist>

Edited May 21, 2016 by Anothermi
add some more random bits

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Qyburn assured them Ser Gregor was friends with all Qyburn's friends and assured Jaime that "the monster" understood quite enough. At that point I wondered if he too had become a bird...

I'm not sure, since it seems people tend to clam up when the Mountain appears, and it's hard for him to pass anywhere unnoticed -- or for any King's Guardsman, for that matter (and I suspect The Mountain's armor may now be welded on). He also doesn't seem to leave Cersei's side, except when dispatched by either Cersei or Qyburn on an errand of mayhem.

My guess is that the legitimate Little Birds -- the Fleabottom Irregulars -- were seeded in the crowd for Cersei's walk of shame, and took names of all the people who molested her. We did see a merry lout expose himself to her then. The Mountain had likely been working his way down a list, and closed in on the cock-shaker at a moment when he happened to be waxing on his story, for what looked to be upteenth time. We got the reminder of what he'd done, and the Mountain then smushed the miscreant, while he was committing the lesser offense of public urination. Maybe Qyborn endowed his creature with a sense of irony.

Qyborn also said that the Mountain had vowed not to speak until all Cersei's enemies had been destroyed. That could have been rhetoric, but good to have in mind for whenever the Mountain does decide to speak. 

[Anothermi]

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

I'm not sure, since it seems people tend to clam up when the Mountain appears, and it's hard for him to pass anywhere unnoticed

Hee! True. I wasn't thinking of "Big Bird" as an actual whisper provider, more as an honorary member of the gang. Perhaps, as you suggested, he's the enforcer of the gang? Hope that he also becomes their protector, just not expecting it.

 

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Qyborn also said that the Mountain had vowed not to speak until all Cersei's enemies had been destroyed. That could have been rhetoric, but good to have in mind for whenever the Mountain does decide to speak. 

I'm quite happy with the Mountain going back to being the mute monolith we met in the early seasons. He was so much more frightening then. He lost it all when they gave him a face... and dialog. The only time I'd be willing to see him speak is if he sits beside a little bird and says in "Big Bird's" voice... "want a candied plum?" ;-)

[Anothermi]

On 2016-05-09 at 2:07 PM, Llywela said:

Also, my god but Rickon has grown! Looked like the same kid, as well - I thought for sure they'd re-cast the part if he ever came back into the story.

There's something that has been bugging me about that reveal - and it's not to do with Rickon - although I too thought he might have been recast (like Tommen). Since we've been doing the re-watch I've been reminded of all the direwolves. They ALL were shades of white - with some different body colouring. NONE of them were black, yet the direwolf head Karstark provided as "proof" that the boy he delivered was Richon was entirely black! What's that all about? The show is not usually that bad with continuity.