S06.E02: Home

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis: 

Bran trains with the Three-Eyed Raven. In King’s Landing, Jaime advises Tommen. Tyrion demands good news, but has to make his own. At Castle Black, the Night’s Watch stands behind Thorne. Ramsay Bolton  proposes a plan, and Balon Greyjoy entertains other proposals.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Athena

[90PercentGravity]

Is it wrong to perv on Brand, because day-um.

Maybe Mel can resurrect Theon's favorite toy.

[Pallas]

Wow. Ghost mourns no more; Tyrion gets his birthday wish; Arya is no one; Sansa is regaining siblings faster than Ramsay can lose them; the Westerosi Greatest Generation is down two more -- and not content with that, A Show finds the funny. "I apologize for what you are about to see."

A Show is forgiven.

[DirewolfPup]

omgomgomgomgomg.

I screamed with joy at the end of the episode. It was obvious where they were going, but holy 7 almighty, we needed a win for the good guys. So thrilled.

We finally got to see the death of the Iron Islands king. Freaking leeches man. It was just a matter of time.

We also FINALLY get to see the Bran Clan again.

So many good things in this episode. This season is already starting to make me forget about Season 5.

[janjan]

Yes, Pup, this ep was the best one in a long time!

So Jon lives. Is anyone surprised? Maybe Melissandra used up all her magic and will turn into her old self again.

But Roose is gone!!! Wah! He was my favorite baddie! RIP Roose. How long will it take Ramsay to lose everything? Roose was the only smart Bolton. Maybe Lady Walda's dad will have another dinner party.

Bye, Daddy Greyjoy. <barf> He had a brother? Who knew? And a ruthless wacko, too. Maybe he will fill the void in my heart left by Roose and Tywin. A Show needs good baddies. And Theon is on his way. There will be doings in the Iron Islands. I hope the sets will be better lit so at least you can see what's going on.

Still no Littlefinger. And where's the Blackfish? And Nymeria. And of course, Benjen.

Dragons speak English?

When the dragon presented his neck to Tyrion, it reminded me of a thing I heard of where a pod of dolphins approached some divers, who were underwater working on something. One of the dolphins came over and presented her flipper to a diver, and he saw it was tangled in some fishing gear. He freed her and she swam off happy. She seemed to know (or trust) that the human would help her.

Let's hear it for opposing thumbs.

Lena Headey continues to amaze with her face-acting. Last week, as she watched the ship from Dorne approach, you could see her go from joyous anticipation to dawning realization to total despair. All without a word. And this week, you could see the exact moment when she forgave Tommen for being a dick.

I think Arya was lying. She's still Arya, not No One.

Edited May 2, 2016 by janjan

[Llywela]

Jon! Oh, Show. We knew you couldn't have positioned Melisandre at Castle Black for nothing.

Sansa is now the only Stark child with any intel whatsoever on her scattered siblings. She's not much closer to being reunited with any of them, but she's the only one who knows that most of them are still alive. And maybe we'll get to see her reunite with Jon soon? Maybe?

I think Theon is not long for this world, though, at this point. And I think he knows it. Helping Sansa escape from Winterfell was his redemption and now he's going home to die. He'll be reunited with his sister, they'll band together to confront whatever the heck is going on at Pyke, and then he'll be killed and be returned to the sea, finally at peace.

Poor Walda and her baby, that was horrible. :( Since Roose was the only Bolton with any sense, twisted though that sense was, I hope Ramsay now attempts to march on Castle Black, as he said he wanted, and gets slaughtered by an army of Wildlings.

Bran! My, how that boy has grown. I'm intrigued now to know if Hodor will ever regain his speech, or if it's gone for good. Also, what happened that left him mute in the first place?

Will we get to see Sam or Rickon at all this season, I wonder?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Llywela

[DirewolfPup]

I'm going to borrow a topic from the S06.E01 Unsullied thread.

Quote

Pallas

I think GRRM killed off Ned Stark to make room for the Young Starks, whose story it is, along with the Young Targ and Youngish Lannister. Along with Robert and Tywin, Ned was part of a very brief Westerosi Greatest Generation: the combatants of the revolution that overthrew the Targareyns. Yet once the Mad King was kingslain, all that got anyone was King Robert, and Cersei's incest bastards. 

The younger generation face a crisis greater than kings or kingdoms. Jon, especially, sees the peril, and says that cooperation and not competition is the answer. He is the voice of the only future in which the living survive the dead. That future may do without heroes, but Jon, Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany are the essential heroes of their time.

At this point in A Story, almost all of the oldest generation are now dead or murdered.  If ye characters started with a patriarch alive in the family, they are dead now. Oldest Stark: Ned, beheaded.  Oldest Baratheon: King Robert, killed via ruffie with help from a boar.  Oldest Targarian: Aemon at the wall, died of natural causes. Oldest Lannister: Tywin, murdered by son on the John. Oldest Greyjoy: Can't remember his name, but he's murdered by his brother. Oldest Aryn: As in Jon Aryn. Either Jon or Liza would count for that. Oldest Bolton: Roose, stabbed by Ramsey. Martell: Prince, stabbed by Eliria. Mormont: Lord Commander, stabbed by mutineers.

The only exceptions I could think of are :

     - Tully, Catalyn's house. Blackfish is still out there. I think he was the oldest.

     - Frey, Walder. Please, can he die already? Please!!!

     - Tyrell. Lady Olena should live forever! If we are sticking strictly to men-lead, her son is alive and in Braavos.

[ChocButterfly]

They finally brought Jon back! I'm glad they didn't drag that story anymore. I knew it was going to be Melissandre.

I'm happy Theon' s father is dead. I'm sure the brother is a bigger asshole, so I hope Yara kills him too and she ends up being the Lady of the Iron Islands. Though why would anyone want to rule that hideous place is beyond me. I'd have gotten outta there on the first opportunity, and never ever return.

I don't understand why Jaimie hasn't done anything against those religious fanatics. He should have the Lannister army massacre the whole lot of them! Oh, what's that? Cersei sent her uncle Kieran, commander of the forces, away and pissed him off in the process? Yeah, I had forgotten about that. Probably they have no army at all, except for a few of the King' s Guards. Haha! How you like it now Cersei? I'm sure they'll find a way to get rid if those fanatics either way.

Tommen is still an idiot.

Ramsey is another idiot, so I'm sure without his dad's wisdom he won't get too far.

Now I'm really curious to find out what happened to Hodor that changed him like that. He seem to have a normal intellect when he was a child. I always thought he had been born like that.

I thought Tyrion was going to get the dragons out of there, I mean, they're still in captivity the poor pair!

[DirewolfPup]

We completely glossed over Tyrion. He befriended the dragons. "I'm a friend of your mother's"  "I'm here to help. Please, don't eat the help." Maybe the two will be able to find mom or at least meet up with Drogon?  The hunger strike they were on was interesting. Drogon seems much more Dany adjacent. He runs off constantly and barely lets her near him except when she was in danger. Would Drogon go on a hunger strike? I doubt it. She locked up the two loving, sensitive dragons.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Game Of Thrones Brings Even More Death -- But Also Some Life! ...But Still Mostly Death

Also, that thing that everyone thought was going to happen? It happened.

[gingerella]

Jon lives! *squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee*

16 hours ago, Pallas said:

Wow. Ghost mourns no more; Tyrion gets his birthday wish; Arya is no one; Sansa is regaining siblings faster than Ramsay can lose them; the Westerosi Greatest Generation is down two more -- and not content with that, A Show finds the funny. "I apologize for what you are about to see."

A Show is forgiven.

No shit, right?!

16 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

omgomgomgomgomg.

I screamed with joy at the end of the episode.

I heard you Pup...did you hear me?!  Yessss! It was simply divine wasn't it?!  I just knew Jon could not be officially dead. He is the centerpiece of A Show's story, he has to live. And may I say, I am happy to wet sponge my Lord Commander any time it is required...sorry...did I just type that out loud?  I imagine that the remaining NW and the Free Folk are going to look upon Jon as some sort of godlike being now that he has risen from the dead, literally.  If that gives him the clout and the army backing to go forth and conquer evil, I say right on man, right on!  Though now I do wonder if Jon is still technically the Lord Commander or the NW, or if he is free to frolic, so to speak. I'm sure there's another Ygritte somewhere amongst the Free Folk, though I don't want Jon distracted at this point in the game.

11 hours ago, Llywela said:

Jon! Oh, Show. We knew you couldn't have positioned Melisandre at Castle Black for nothing.

Sansa is now the only Stark child with any intel whatsoever on her scattered siblings. She's not much closer to being reunited with any of them, but she's the only one who knows that most of them are still alive. And maybe we'll get to see her reunite with Jon soon? Maybe?

I think Theon is not long for this world, though, at this point. And I think he knows it. Helping Sansa escape from Winterfell was his redemption and now he's going home to die. He'll be reunited with his sister, they'll band together to confront whatever the heck is going on at Pyke, and then he'll be killed and be returned to the sea, finally at peace.

Poor Walda and her baby, that was horrible.

Interesting point about Sansa being the only Stark sibling who knows about the current fate of her siblings right now.  I am so glad Brienne of Tarth finally has a real job, and protecting Sansa no less. I want to see Sansa realize her strength as a Stark, in terms of cunning, strategy, and being behind the side of doing the right thing, but in a way that also punishes those who wronged her family.  For instance, I want it to be Sansa who finally puts a knife into Ramsey. I wouldn't even mind is she cut his dick off and shoved it into his mouth as payback for what a bastard did to Theon. I know, gross, but I want Sansa to take no shit from anyone anymore. I want her to be so fucking awesome that when she and Arya finally reunite - and I think they will at some point - that Arya will be astounded at how badass her girlie sister has become.  Sansa has been everyone's punching bag for too long, now I want her tide to turn and have Brienne and Pod teach her how to rain a shitstorm of hurt on those who have wronged her and her family. Actually, it would be amazing if eventually Sansa rescues Arya...that? Would be a 180 turn from when the two of them bitched at each other way back when in KL.

I'm not sure Theon wont make it back to Pyke, I think he will, though I don't know how right now. And I think he and his sister will overturn their crazy uncle, who seems worse than their father, and that's no small feat.  I just don't want to see Theon end up right back with Ramsey again, that will suck. I cant take anymore of that garbage.

Poor stupid, silly Walda. We all knew Lady Bolton and babe were not going to last even one day when the Maester announced "it's a boy!" I have no sympathy for Lord Bolton because he knew damn well his bastard was batshit crazy and he never did anything about it other than allow him to behave in depraved and demented ways. Dude deserved to die by his bastard's hand.  And that Maester? If I were him I'd get out of dodge whilst my head was still attached to me neck...The only upside on this is that hopefully, Walder Frey will hear about his daughter and grandson's demise and rain a shitstorm down on Ramsey a la The Red Wedding. That? I'd be okay with. Ramsey has Joff'd this show long enough.

6 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

I'm going to borrow a topic from the S06.E01 Unsullied thread.

At this point in A Story, almost all of the oldest generation are now dead or murdered.  If ye characters started with a patriarch alive in the family, they are dead now. Oldest Stark: Ned, beheaded.  Oldest Baratheon: King Robert, killed via ruffie with help from a boar.  Oldest Targarian: Aemon at the wall, died of natural causes. Oldest Lannister: Tywin, murdered by son on the John. Oldest Greyjoy: Can't remember his name, but he's murdered by his brother. Oldest Aryn: As in Jon Aryn. Either Jon or Liza would count for that. Oldest Bolton: Roose, stabbed by Ramsey. Martell: Prince, stabbed by Eliria. Mormont: Lord Commander, stabbed by mutineers.

The only exceptions I could think of are :

     - Tully, Catalyn's house. Blackfish is still out there. I think he was the oldest.

     - Frey, Walder. Please, can he die already? Please!!!

     - Tyrell. Lady Olena should live forever! If we are sticking strictly to men-lead, her son is alive and in Braavos.

You know, this reminded me or our talk on that thread re: Benjen and how it bugs most of us that we just lost Uncle Benjen, never to be seen nor mentioned again.  I've been thinking about that and taken in the context of A Show, I would guess that it was fairly common for folks to "go missing" and never be seen nor heard from again. I mean, it's not like they can stop by the local King's Road pub and log onto the Westerosi WiFi and post their whereabouts on NoFacebook, or InstaRaven, yanno?  So I guess I can see how characters in this realm would just disappear, never to be seen again.  It's annoying from A Viewer's perspective, but if I've learned anything these past 5+ years, it's that A Show is not about A Viewer.  As for Walder Frey, let him live long enough to re-visit another dinner party for Ramsey, then he can bugger off in a hail of arrows. Blackfish? Hopefully he's still alive and out there, waiting for a reprise.  If Sansa can get to him, perhaps there is hope. And of course Sansa had, when last we saw them together, a rather warm relationship with Lady Olenna, so maybe Sansa can team up with folks like Blackfish, Jon and the Free Folk/leftover NW scraps, and whatever army Olenna might have at her disposal, and together they can begin amassing enough people to take back the North AND hold the Wall...wishful thinking?

What I'm wondering though is this, does Winter actually get all the way to KL and/or across the Narrow Sea to places like Doth Vaes, Mereen, Slave Bay area, Dorne, Pyke, etc.?  I don't seem to ever remember hearing people from those places talking about Winter Is Coming. Only in the North. I wonder if Winter can/will make its way all the way to KL and beyond...seems like nobody talks about it down there.

ETA:

Loved Tyrion saying to Varys, "Next time I have an idea like this, punch me in the face."  I took that action to be that he unchained the dragoon twins, and they will eventually make their way out of the dungeon and into the sky. Good for Tyrion, once again proving he has what it takes to be a leader...Tyrion/Dany/Jon for the win!

Edited May 2, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Glad they are moving us along in the story line reasonably quickly and with only a small amount of horror.

Kudos @Pallas for your spot on spec re: how Jon would be resurrected: (from the Unspoiled Spec thread)

Quote

Melisandre is now humbled, perhaps even aghast at her own doings and misdeeds. She'll have to confess to Davos that she burned Shireen and then abandoned Stannis on the battlefield. Rather than berate or behead her, Davos will be forced to embolden her -- turn her to the task of resurrecting Jon, admired by their late king Stannis as the son-he-never-had. Melisandre will protest that she must be a false prophet, unloved by the Red God, and if Davos needs more proof of that?, well, even at the height of her delusions, she never claimed or earned the power of resurrection.

Davos will remind her that he witnessed her create life or something like it, and that resurrecting Jon is all she has left to do on this earth. Not to be redeemed, but to atone. Perhaps, to justify this whole clusterfuck of an outing to the North. Because Jon Snow might be the king she saw triumphant in her vision, still to come...or at least, he's cute. And who wants to listen to that poor wolf!

WELL SPAT!

I was not surprised at Ramsey's actions. Quite expected him to kill his father - and brother - and step mother. I was a little surprised that they decided to humanize Walda (and by that I mean give her dialog that allowed us to see her as more than a plot device - she'd been not much more than a prop to this point and now she's a prop-with-feelings) before killing her. Good for you Show.

For me, the big thing about the Bolton story was Roose's last words to his mongrel son (nice try Roose) "If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog you'll be treated as a mad dog and taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed." (™ Deadwood RIP) I can't help but hope those were prophetic words.

The other part that stood out came just before that. Ramsey stated that all (he) needed to control the North was the Karstarks, the (bannerman house starting with an M. I'll have to check if it's made it's way to the Character thread later) and the Umbers (Duh duh, DUH!).

We were shown young, bitter & revenge-filled Karstark. He may be the last Karstark boy, too young at the time to join Robb's army so left at home to be the acting Lord - like Bran was at Winterfell.  Didn't Jaime kill one or two Karstarks during his escape soooo long ago now and in revenge Elder Karstark killed two young Lannister boys (one of whom was reborn as the current Tommen) which was the reason Robb beheaded Old Karstark. He, apparently, is firmly on side with Ramsey. I'll give him time to prove himself.

Why? Because of the mention of the House of Umber as likely being onside too. Things I remember about the Umbers: 1) you have to earn their loyalty (in Robb's case it was feeding Lord Umber's finger to his Direwolf) and 2) Umber (land) was where Rickon and Osha were headed after the Bran-clan broke up. Either something happened to them that caused them to detour (maybe they ran in to Blackfish? We can only hope.) OR they made it to the Umber's and have been effectively hidden there all this time (however long that might be - long enough for Bran to grow up, but maybe not long enough for Rickon to have). I still hate the time-fluidity thingy this Show has going on.

IF the Umber's are harboring Osha and Rickon but Ramsey thinks they are supporting HIM (or Roose anyway) then there may be an interesting story playing out behind the scenes in the North. (arg! I'm allowing hope to creep in... bad, bad plan)

So, this leads me to Bran. Was just speaking of him re: episode 1 discussion and Voila! He appears. It seems Root Dude had time to freshen up since last we saw him, trimming his long beard and whiskers has made him become someone else distinctly Scandinavian. I DO love me some Max Von Sydow so I approve. Really loved getting that glimpse into the Stark-ien past. Young!Lyanna, young!Benjen and young!Ned. Hodor had a name and was a normal stable boy.

Jojen was said to be able to "see" things - past and future - and he implied Bran had that ability too. Right now it seems he needs a guide, but if he didn't he could show us Jon's mom! and what happened to all the other Milk Carton Characters! Not that I think he will - too many other pressing priorities at this point - like saving everyone from becoming Zombonies.

Gotta stop here, but I'm sure other impressions will pop up later.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Anothermi
spelling & grammar

[janjan]

Anothermi: About possible Umber "Night Manager" doings, you have a devious mind. I love it!

Max von Sydow redeems that (till now) tedious Bran story line. I'd watch anything with him in it, ever since "The Seventh Seal."

Can't wait till Jon saunters out and waves to the assembled NW and Free Folk. Heh! It will definitely be like Dany arising from Drogo's pyre. Without the dragons, but with Ghost. Oh boy, can't wait to see Thorne's face.

[Anothermi]

15 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

We completely glossed over Tyrion. He befriended the dragons. "I'm a friend of your mother's"  "I'm here to help. Please, don't eat the help." Maybe the two will be able to find mom or at least meet up with Drogon?  The hunger strike they were on was interesting. Drogon seems much more Dany adjacent. He runs off constantly and barely lets her near him except when she was in danger. Would Drogon go on a hunger strike? I doubt it. She locked up the two loving, sensitive dragons.

I think that was the point, Pup. Tyrion's book-learnin' taught him that the dragons started to get smaller when the Targs started chaining them up (or words to that effect). Drogon is free. He doesn't need to hunger strike. The others (smaller, younger and possibly female?) got chained up due to his bad behaviour regarding Danys' subjects and their... stuff (sheep etc).  That's probably what happened to the Westeros dragons as well. Civilization puts the "drag" in a Dragon's life.

It was great to see Tyrion back doing what he does best. Putting his smarts to work. I never would have guessed him to be a dragon wrangler though. And of course it's great to have Hope and Crosby the Varys/Tyrion show back on the road. Much needed comic relief along with plot development.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Anothermi
corrected tense of need to needed.../obsessive

[gingerella]

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

IF the Umber's are harboring Osha and Rickon but Ramsey thinks they are supporting HIM (or Roose anyway) then there may be an interesting story playing out behind the scenes in the North. (arg! I'm allowing hope to creep in... bad, bad plan)

Ooo, if Rickon is older now, and maybe doesn't look like he used to, and since he likely no longer dresses like a "Little Lord" (I miss Osha!), I could totally see him sidling up to Ramsey as some sort of manservant boy (sort of like a PA for psychos) and then killing Ramsey as soon as he gets the chance. That? Would be super sweet, though I'd prefer Sansa to have that pleasure. Or Theon. Or both of them.

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

For me, the big thing about the Bolton story was Roose's last words to his mongrel son (nice try Roose) "If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog you'll be treated as a mad dog and taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed." (™ Deadwood RIP) I can't help but hope those were prophetic words.

Yup, I certainly hope Roose's last words are a harbinger of what Ramsey's fate is now. Two people have witnessed him kill his own father then immediately create a lie about it.  Then feed his stepmother and baby half brother to the dogs - whom btw, just ate his lady love so why were they so hungry? - anyway I digress. I do hope he becomes even more emboldened to engage in heinous crimes that others witness because he feels untouchable. Then let him meet some horrid fate, the little shitball deserves the worst that place has to offer him.

Re: Branflake's A Christmas Story romp at Winterfell...I think we're going to be treated this season to finally learning if Lyanna and Raegar are Jon Snow's parents...Why else to suddenly bring young Lyanna back into A Show? Yes folks, it seems S6 has lots of answers in store for us, and so far, S6E2 was as satisfying as when we last year saw Ayra finally, finally reach Braavos.  It all feels so good, so I'm left wondering what hellish stank is waiting for us behind a dark corner this season...

[Anothermi]

3 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Re: Branflake's A Christmas Story romp at Winterfell...I think we're going to be treated this season to finally learning if Lyanna and Raegar are Jon Snow's parents...Why else to suddenly bring young Lyanna back into A Show? Yes folks, it seems S6 has lots of answers in store for us, and so far, S6E2 was as satisfying as when we last year saw Ayra finally, finally reach Braavos.  It all feels so good, so I'm left wondering what hellish stank is waiting for us behind a dark corner this season...

<<Hands over ears... LaLaLa-ing loudly>> DON'T DRINK THE KOOLAID!

You KNOW this show loves to toy with us (or GRRM... or both).

[ChocButterfly]

I caught that Umber reference as well and I thought the same, that apparently they're secretely working against the Boltons, which I'm not surprised. The while North should be secretly working, no, openly, working against the Boltons. For all that talk about how the North is untameable, blah, blah, blah, they've turned out to be a bunch of wimps that have let Ramsey run wild and torture their neighbors without doing anything. I mean, the Karstarks might be powerful, but the rest of them can't seriously unite against them?

And speaking of wimps.....where the hell is the Tyrell' s army??? How is it that Olynna has let both her grandchildren be imprisoned by a bunch of religious fanatics and hasn't done anything?? This for me is one of the most irritating plots, that these Sparrows have been able to run things for this long and no one hasn't tried to stop them!! At least, show us the Tyrells trying and failing, or Cersei asking for her army from the Lannisters, something!!!

By the way, what if Theon is not going to the Irons Islands but back to Winterfell and kill Ramsey himself? That'd be a good redeeming final arc for him.

[Anothermi]

So I've started a re-watch of Home (just barely) but I wanted to post my I Spy list of who is at Winterfell while I remember.

We see:

Ned & Benjen sparring, overseen by a young bewhiskered dude who I take to be Ser Rodrik Cassel - before he adopted the sideburns-knotted-under-the-chin look. The character guide reminds me that he was Master of Arms (i.e. trainer) at Winterfell. Perhaps this was his trainer training?

Next Lyanna rides in - long, light brown hair flowing free and messing with the Benjen's training like Arya did with Bran's in S01E01 - which I think the scene was meant to mirror. She asks Benjen who he's ..."going to spar with when Ned goes off to the Aerie". So Ned may not have met Robert B yet nor Robert met Lyanna?

Benjen doesn't know and Lyanna suggests "him" (Bran is taken aback as she is looking right at him!) But Ned calls "Willis" (young Hodor) the stable boy, to come here. Lyanna brings Willis a practice sword and gives him a tip that Benjen has a 'tell' (like Bran with lying) of lifting his chin when he's about to charge and Willis adds that he also knows that Benjen lowers his chin when he's about to dodge.

Then incomes a woman who appears to be Willis' mother to stop him from fighting. Ned calls her Nan. ( Old Nan had the best stories!) I didn't know Nan was Hodor's mother. Love this prequel. I do hope there will be more, but I know better than to bank on it.

Did anyone recognize anyone else?

ETA: Hodor has become so expressive. I can't remember if he was always so, but now he doesn't really need much more than Hodor to be understood on a more complex level.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

anothermi, my guess with Hodor is that he was indeed roped into fighting practice and got banged on the head really badly and from then on went "Hodor" on everyone.  I only think that based on the backstory we saw the other night.  I'm assuming that was also Old Nan as well, though why would the stable help's mother be the nanny of the royal children? That seems odd in their society.

Choc, I think the Bolton's - well at least Ramsey - are so horribly foul and depraved, that even the Northerners are appalled by them/him. I'd be afraid too as it seems everyone who goes against Ramsey meets a horrible, horrible fate. So yeah, I could see plotting from underneath as the only viable way out of this sitation. That said, without his father as a counterbalance to his terrorist ways, I think he's soon destined for pig fodder as Roose predicted.  I suppose it would be fitting if his own dogs ate him, but I think he'd actually fancy that so I'd rather his fate be a taste of what he's dished out to others.

Count me in on being perplexed as to why the Tyrell's have not seemed to do anything to free Margery or her brother...weird, but then again, Olenna is a master plotter so...

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

1 - anothermi, my guess with Hodor is that he was indeed roped into fighting practice and got banged on the head really badly and from then on went "Hodor" on everyone.  I only think that based on the backstory we saw the other night.  I'm assuming that was also Old Nan as well, though why would the stable help's mother be the nanny of the royal children? That seems odd in their society.

2 - Count me in on being perplexed as to why the Tyrell's have not seemed to do anything to free Margery or her brother...weird, but then again, Olenna is a master plotter so...

1 - Given your speculation, perhaps Nan became the "nanny" of the royal children because of what happened to her son Willis? We all know Ned's soft spot.

2 - Olenna is a master plotter... yep. I think that may explain why she is quiet right now. She tried to influence the High Sparrow earlier and ended up check-mated, so I think she's watching and learning.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Would Drogon go on a hunger strike? I doubt it. She locked up the two loving, sensitive dragons

I love this, Pup. It's true, what Anothermi said about the kitty-dragons of King's Landing (they must have looked like AcK, her avatar!), and how confinement did them in.  But it's also true, in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond, that some moms as well as lasses love a bad boy.  

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"Dragons know English?" -- janjan

Good thing Tyrion didn't try speaking Valyrian. 

Thank you all: I feel a lot better now about Ramsay's numbering the Umbers among his allies!  I should have remembered that the North remembers.   

And thank you for the recap of Bran's vision, Anothermi. It was exciting to see Lyanna, but almost hurt to feel the resonance with Arya as we first met her. Not only the "showing-off" in the middle of the boys' training, but her merry suggestion that Benjen, the son of a lord, could spar with the stable-boy. The Unsullied remember too, Mycah. Is it possible that Benjen inadvertantly injured Hodor in the course of sparring with him, as Arya -- sparing with Mycah -- played a part in Mycah's death?

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I wonder if Winter can/will make its way all the way to KL and beyond...seems like nobody talks about it down there. -- gingerella      

 

In season 1, the Dothraki talked about a fabled time when the horses starved because the grass was covered in...I forget what!...but it seemed that what they meant was snow. And Dany had her vision of the Iron Throne drifted over. 

Watching Melisandre trying and failing (again) to stir Jon Snow, I was muttering, "Get old...Get old...Get old, woman! Let's see that hand wrinkle, your back crook, the men fall away in terror...no, they're just leaving...("Time of death: still yesterday..."). Then watching Ghost and getting a second wind: "Wake up...Wake up...Wake up, wolf!.."

[Anothermi]

6 hours ago, janjan said:

Can't wait till Jon saunters out and waves to the assembled NW and Free Folk. Heh! It will definitely be like Dany arising from Drogo's pyre. Without the dragons, but with Ghost. Oh boy, can't wait to see Thorne's face.

Especially if he does it dressed like he currently is!

Edited May 3, 2016 by Anothermi

[Llywela]

How much time has passed since last season? Time is so fluid on this show - was Sansa really locked up at Winterfell for Walda's entire pregnancy? I'm wondering if Olenna even knows about Loras and Margery. It's not as if they have the option of writing to her for help. But if they are normally in regular communication, the sudden cessation of that should have tipped her off. You'd think there'd be plenty of Kingsguard left in King's Landing still, though, so...it's actually fascinating to see how the Sparrows have so neatly taken control of the city, a bloodless coup, in effect. They seized control of the royal family, which gives them control of the city. And perhaps there are plenty of Kingsguard around still - there certainly seemed to be a sizeable detachment sent to keep Cersei away from Myrcella's funeral - so perhaps the point is that there simply isn't anyone left among the Lannister crew with enough nouse to plan a counter-coup. Cersei isn't as clever as she thinks she is, and is currently too busy licking her wounds to think her way out of this. She's used to getting her own way through a show of force - I'm remembering now her little demonstration of 'power', way back in season one, I think. She ordered, and the Kingsguard obeyed. And I think they still would, if she and Tommen were truly united and worked together to de-fang the Sparrows, but a simple show of force wouldn't be enough, it needs to be planned carefully. They're on the right path now, having reconciled, and have Jaime back to support them - he made a good start, standing up to the High Sparrow (who, for such a seemingly meek and mild man has achieved all this absolutely masterfully). But Jaime was alone and outnumbered, in a vulnerable position, standing at the centre of the Sept. What they need is someone capable of planning a way of getting the Sparrows into such a vulnerable position, so they can corral them and then take them down - heck, they need Tyrion! Tyrion could do it!

Edited May 3, 2016 by Llywela

[DirewolfPup]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

How much time has passed since last season? Time is so fluid on this show - was Sansa really locked up at Winterfell for Walda's entire pregnancy? I'm wondering if Olenna even knows about Loras and Margery.

She knows. She was there during the mini-trial that confirmed Loras' "perversion" and arrested Margaery for being complicit in keeping this perversion a secret. Than afterwards (or before?), Olenna threatened to remove Highgarden's supply of food to the city. Essentially, threatening to starve all of KL to get her grandkids back. The High Sparrow then suggested that the tillers in the field and the low-folk would rise up to follow him just as they have in KL. So she was at a stalemate.

The last we saw of her was with Littlefinger. It was the last time we saw him, too. They met in the brothel, now in shambles, to discuss the possibility of scheming together. It was all very vague. LF told her about secrets he gave to Cersei, but that he had other secrets she didn't know about. Olenna at one point threatened to oust their co-plot that killed Joffrey if she was taken down. It'll be interesting to see what those two come up with.

Edited May 3, 2016 by DirewolfPup

[Llywela]

43 minutes ago, DirewolfPup said:

She knows. She was there during the mini-trial that confirmed Loras' "perversion" and arrested Margaery for being complicit in keeping this perversion a secret. Than afterwards (or before?), Olenna threatened to remove Highgarden's supply of food to the city. Essentially, threatening to starve all of KL to get her grandkids back. The High Sparrow then suggested that the tillers in the field and the low-folk would rise up to follow him just as they have in KL. So she was at a stalemate.

The last we saw of her was with Littlefinger. It was the last time we saw him, too. They met in the brothel, now in shambles, to discuss the possibility of scheming together. It was all very vague. LF told her about secrets he gave to Cersei, but that he had other secrets she didn't know about. Olenna at one point threatened to oust their co-plot that killed Joffrey if she was taken down. It'll be interesting to see what those two come up with.

Sheesh. I had completely forgotten all of that. Definitely time we caught up with both Olenna and Littlefinger! Also, I can't help wondering who is actually running the country while all this is going on. We used to see Small Council meetings from time to time, giving a sense that affairs of state were going on in the midst of whatever else was happening, but most of that Small Council now seems to be either dead or exiled, the king is a frightened kid, the queen is in prison, the queen mother locked in a tower, so who is actually running the state? Which brings me to another point - the Iron Bank of Braavos. I'm starting to wonder how it maintains its wealth and reputation, since from what we've seen it mostly seems to give out enormous loans without ever getting any payment back. Case in point: Stannis, who persuaded the Bank to loan him enough money to buy an army...and ain't ever going to pay that money back! He doesn't have any heirs to repay the debt, either. And someone mentioned upthread that Olenna's son, the Lord of Highgarden whose name I've forgotten if I ever knew it, was last seen sailing off to Braavos to discuss the loans taken out by the Kingdom, which again seem unlikely to ever be paid back, given the givens. How long ago was that? Shouldn't he be back by now? Or is he being held in default of the loan?

The story is so unwieldy, hardly surprising that details would start to fall through the cracks! It feels as if Show is really straining to contain itself at this point, skimming over each plot because there just isn't enough screentime to delve into anything in any depth.

I'm also wondering what the point of all the Dorne shenanigans was, unless it was simply to make clear that Dorne is not about to become a major player in the Game of Thrones because it's too busy falling apart itself! But Tristane was in King's Landing when he died, right? On the boat that brought Jaime and dead Myrcella back - so does that mean there are two of Oberyn's murderous daughters running around King's Landing somewhere still? Maybe one of them will kill the High Sparrow and bring the Church Militant's reign to an end! More to the point, maybe I will finally learn one or both of their names.

Also, did Bronn return to King's Landing with Jaime? We haven't seen him yet this season.

[gingerella]

Pup, thank the old gods and the new for your stellar memory my friend!

Llywela, I think we did see Olenna's oaf of a son arriving in Braavos, because didn't he arrive with Merynt Trant and that's when Arya decided to cut a bitch for good?  I think I remember them all disembarking and walking into the winding streets of Braavos near the waterside, and Arya was nearby selling something, no?  Which means yes, the Oaf of Highgarden should be taking some heat in Braavos soon for the failed loans or whatever he was going there to negotiate about. That's not so interesting to me on the surface unless Braavos takes some sort of action, I mean, they don't seem like the sorts to put someone in a dungeon because the kingdom he represents cannot pay their loan and let's be real, nobody in KL or Highgarden really has two fucks to give about the Oaf, so...that said, I know what you mean, we have not see any King's Council meetings in a dogs age, and we used to be treated to them every season, so it IS odd, who IS running KL nowadays? I would not be surprised if it's LF, that guy has more lives than Morris the Cat. Nor would I be surprised if he's got Olenna under lock and key, though I think she's worth more alive and free to LF, what with resources and all.

Dorne, wasn't the ship they sailed to KL on a Dornish ship? I would have assumed since Jamie and Bronn came in on a little dinghy IIRC.  So they could, I assume, sail away under cover of darkness. Don't know any reason they'd stick around in KL unless the one who loves Bronn wants to reconnect with him?

[Llywela]

42 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Dorne, wasn't the ship they sailed to KL on a Dornish ship? I would have assumed since Jamie and Bronn came in on a little dinghy IIRC.  So they could, I assume, sail away under cover of darkness. Don't know any reason they'd stick around in KL unless the one who loves Bronn wants to reconnect with him?

That's true. But then again, Cersei and Jaime knew about Tristane's murder, so the ship stuck around long enough for the news to get ashore, and they talked about not being any nearer to finding the killers - killers plural, iirc, although only one blow was struck, which implies that they know it was those two who did it in cahoots and have been unable to apprehend them, which in turn implies that they don't believe the girls sailed away under cover of darkness, so...I don't even know where I'm going with this. The murders were so carefully coordinated - was that entire sub-plot really nothing more than a way of removing a few more players from the field? Or is there more to come from Ellaria and those interchangeable girls? It's been such an odd storyline from the start, the Dornish characters so thinly realised, I feel like I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that front.

Although at this point, the very sparse screentime is definitely better spent on the major plot-bearing characters!

[Anothermi]

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Dorne, wasn't the ship they sailed to KL on a Dornish ship? I would have assumed since Jamie and Bronn came in on a little dinghy IIRC.  So they could, I assume, sail away under cover of darkness. Don't know any reason they'd stick around in KL unless the one who loves Bronn wants to reconnect with him? - gingerella

Returning after a brief trip to the wilds of the Character thread...

So, we have heard the names of all the Sand Snakes - at least for the mili-second it took for someone to utter it (possibly unintelligibly) - and I have brought those names from the Unspoiled Character Thread.

Tyene Sand - (aka: the one who loves Bronn) is Ellaria Sand's daughter. She was last seen with her mother in episode 1 assisting in the assassination of Doron Martell (now ex-prince of Dorne). She killed the lovely personal body guard of Doron. (I was personally upset about that. He was my favourite character in Dorne.)

All that means she wouldn't have anything to do with why the Dornish ship would stay or go back to Dorne. I think 'love' is too strong a word to describe what she feels toward Bronn. Intrigued maybe?

The other two are Obara Sand and Nymeria (Nym) Sand. Sisters from another mother - or two. The latter one's mother appears to have been a member of the same fan club as Arya (Nymeria - was that the name of one of the conquering Dragons? I know Arya named them to Tywin, but I couldn't find them in the Character list). When last seen they were on the ship in the harbour killing Trystane. They may be anywhere now.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Anothermi
punctuation

[gingerella]

I thought Nymeria was Arya's direwolf's name, yes?  It would be odd to me that a Sand Snake was also named that. The only multiple name we've seen thus far is the Snow moniker to denote someone's a bastard. But good to know Bronn's sweet thang wasn't part of this shite. IIRC, she gave him the antidote for poison in jail, no? 

[Llywela]

24 minutes ago, gingerella said:

I thought Nymeria was Arya's direwolf's name, yes?  It would be odd to me that a Sand Snake was also named that. The only multiple name we've seen thus far is the Snow moniker to denote someone's a bastard. But good to know Bronn's sweet thang wasn't part of this shite. IIRC, she gave him the antidote for poison in jail, no? 

Arya's direwolf was named after someone or something, though - either a dragon or a dragon rider. She told Tywin about it, way back when. I mean, she didn't tell him she had a direwolf called Nymeria, but they were talking...and it occurs to me that I have completely forgotten the context of that conversation, but Arya ended up telling a story about the early days of the Targaryens, when they came flying in on their dragons and conquered Westeros. There was a Nymeria in that story, I'm sure, I remember a moment of 'oh, so that's why the fancy name for the wolf'.

There have been multiple names in the show before, often with some variation to make the distinction clear. Jon Snow and Jon Arryn. Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark (and Robin Arryn, come to that). Bran Stark named for Ned's dead brother Brandon. Possibly others that I forget. So it doesn't bother me too much that one of the Dorne warrior girls (thanks for the names, Anothermi! I won't remember them - and still couldn't pin the right name on the right girl) has the same name as a direwolf we haven't seen or heard of since season one.

The girl who liked Bronn absolutely was part of Ellaria's coup - she killed the Martell prince's bodyguard to pave the way for Ellaria to assassinate the prince himself, while the other two were off killing Tristane (Trystane? I never spell these names right!). The four women are definitely all in it together, those two murders were carefully planned (three murders, let's not forget Myrcella).

[Pallas]

19 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Especially if he does it dressed like he currently is!

Maybe now Jon will be impervious to ice?  

Joking. And cheers to gingerella for beating me (by a mile) to posting about how Hodor got his Hodor, maybe. About Olenna: she may not have the authority or proximity to muster an army. She's no longer even the Lady of the Reach -- plus she's in King's Landing; Lord Mace is in Braavos; the army's leader is in a cell. But then again, armies aren't so much in her arsenal. There is a trial coming: she may be holding her fire for that.

Cersei too seems to be biding her time, willing to give ground now that she (and her dreadnaught) can rampage over later. After all, the Sparrow is still doing what she elevated him for: removing Loras from hi armies and her sight, and Margaery from Tommen. And it's working. Her possible opponents within the court are now imprisoned or distant, and she has her son the King, her brother the Lord Commander, her pet Maester and pet Mountebank all gathered 'round her again. She is beautifully positioned to make a stand. May it be her last.

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LF told her about secrets he gave to Cersei, but that he had other secrets she didn't know about. 

He told Olenna that Cersei had forced him to share one secret with the High Sparrow, but that he had also shared another, unbeknownst to Cersei. Secret #1: Olivier, Littlefinger's brothel-keeper and Loras's lover, who then testified against Loras and Margaery, to Cersei's delight. Secret #2: Brother/Cousin Lancel, who then testified against Cersei, to her chagrin.

Tyrion and the dragons was even better than I imagined, and I've longed for this meeting since we first discussed how he might wind up with Dany. It's marvelous that the story has him proffer fellow-feeling in this meeting, and appreciate their response. That he empathizes with their pain, his and their common status as freaks from birth, beautiful only to the mothers they lost.

[ChocButterfly]

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But then again, Cersei and Jaime knew about Tristane's murder, so the ship stuck around long enough for the news to get ashore, and they talked about not being any nearer to finding the killers - killers plural, iirc, 

Wait,  when did Cersei and Jamie found out about about Tristane??

And I thought Bronn' s girl was Nymeria, didn't her mom call her Nym once? It's a pity, I kind of liked her, but turns out she's also a dick. I cannot even tell apart the other 2.

[Anothermi]

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And I thought Bronn' s girl was Nymeria, didn't her mom call her Nym once? - ChocButterfly

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Arya's direwolf was named after someone or something... - Llywela

I only know what the Unspoiled Character Thread tells me. I trust them to be more accurate than my memory. Those were the names of the Sand Snakes updated there when we first met them last season.  We met  Obara and Nym first and a bit later we were introduced to Ellaria's daughter, Tyene - the one with the short hair. That's how I tell her apart from the other two. It was the short haired one who toyed with Bronn in the cells and gave him the antidote for the "Long Goodbye" poison. (Loved that name. Kind of like "Tears of Lys" from Season 1, easy to remember)

The Character thread was updated to S06E02 today by our valiant SilverStormm and now contains the names of the historic Dragons Arya was talking about. (or it was there before and I'm just a shit Character thread searcher, but I think it was SS). Turns out neither a Targ sister of Aegon NOR an historic dragon was named Nymeria, so it must be the name of some other mythic Westerosi female. Strong warrior type or Arya wouldn't have chosen it, and that's why I think whoever named that Sand Snake was also a fan.

[ChocButterfly]

Interesting, I also thought that Nymeria was one of those lady Dragon riders. Then what the hell was Arya talking about? Oh well, I never get a name right anyway.

Speaking of names, are Cersei and Sansa real names in English or invented ones? I asked, because I had never heard Soirsee, but it's a name. And it's weird that they have such weird names along with so common ones like Rob and Jaimie. Plus, "Jaimie"? Really, for the handsome Kingslayer? It sounds  like a girl's nickname.

[Anothermi]

8 hours ago, Llywela said:

But then again, Cersei and Jaime knew about Tristane's murder, so the ship stuck around long enough for the news to get ashore, and they talked about not being any nearer to finding the killers - killers plural, iirc, although only one blow was struck, which implies that they know it was those two who did it in cahoots and have been unable to apprehend them, which in turn implies that they don't believe the girls sailed away under cover of darkness

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

Wait,  when did Cersei and Jamie found out about about Tristane??

Not sure if Cersei knows yet, but in the temple over Myrcella's body King Tommen asked Jaime if they'd caught Prince Trystane's killers (plural) and Jaime said not yet. Then he launched into his fatherly advice to Tommen to go speak to his Mother. He also gave the fatherly advice that "we all make mistakes". This is definitely and older, wiser and more tempered Jaime than the one we met in Season One. Yay for character development.

[90PercentGravity]

It wasn't that long ago that Jaime raped his twin sister next to his father's corpse, so I'm not ready to view him as anything-er. 

[gingerella]

14 hours ago, 90PercentGravity said:

It wasn't that long ago that Jaime raped his twin sister next to his father's corpse, so I'm not ready to view him as anything-er. 

But 90, that is character development, Westerosi style! 

Edited May 4, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Just re-watched: just as satisfying.  A few things...

I think Nan isn't Hodor's mother, but was simply watching over the the Stark children as their Nan, and interfering in what she thought (probably wisely) was a very bad idea: a Stark son's sparring with the stable-boy. "It's all fun and games when the little lord fights with the enormous commoner...until it ends in tears and foreshadowing." (Arya's first kill, as well as Mycah.) 

Names: Nymeria was either a Targaryn dragon-rider or a swordswoman; I think it was Ned to whom Arya noted that, for our benefit. Sand is the name given Dornish bastards (said Ellaria to Tywin, at Joffrey's wedding), as Snow is the name given Northern bastards. We've only seen 3 of Oberyn's 8 Sand Snakes, all girls: Ellaria is the mother of 4 (said the late Doran when he was still on time, last season). So did the majority of Oberyn's daughters refuse to ally with Ellaria?

So far it seems that Dorne exists to give us

• Oberyn (and thank you, Dorne), who performed the triple duty of championing Tyrion, nearly killing the Mountain so that he needed to be re-invented, and promoting the story of Rhaegar, Elana Martell and Lyanna Stark; 
• Through both Oberyn and Ellaria, another instance of violence to a loved one's begetting vengeance that blinds the avenger;
• Through Doran and Trystane -- like Ned, like Jon Snow -- a reminder that leaders who practice maturity and forbearance may end up butchered as traitors by lesser souls with quicker blades; and perhaps
• A fresh, skilled army waiting to take on the Lannisters, when they've already facing an insurrection in King's Landing, the fracturing of the alliance with the Tyrells, the Boltons' rebellion in the North, and (soon enough) Littlefinger's legions from the Vale.

Or in short, a new chapter of Tywin's Legacy. 

[Llywela]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Not sure if Cersei knows yet, but in the temple over Myrcella's body King Tommen asked Jaime if they'd caught Prince Trystane's killers (plural) and Jaime said not yet.

Ah, it was Jaime and Tommen. I knew Jaime had talked to someone about Trystane's killers. And I was sure I remembered Arya talking to someone about her wolf's name, but it is possible multiple conversations with different people have conflated in my head there.

If Oberyn had eight daughters but only three are in play currently, perhaps the other five aren't yet old enough to take their place on the political and military stage? Although they do start 'em young in this world, so I'm going to have to go with the theory that Show figured casting and writing for all eight would be unnecessarily unwieldy - which I have to agree with, since I can't even keep these three straight!

[ChocButterfly]

Thanks Anothermi! I had missunderstood that conversation, I thought Tommen was asking Jaimie if it had been Cersei who killed Myrcella, and I thought "WTF?". I completetly missed Trystane's name. And then Jaimie said she wouldn't do that, but if they were talking about Tristane, she'd totally do that! Ha! But of course, Jaimie is not going to tell Tommen that, but I think not even Tommen is that stupid to buy it.

[DirewolfPup]

Llywela, I will have a panic attack if they bring in 5 more Sand Snakes. One big problem I have with that whole plotline is the characters haven't been developed much. At least not developed well. We know they want to avenge Oberyn, but I'm not sure why Oberyn would want revenge more than the life of his brother. I got the impression that Oberyn loved his family. ("You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children.")

So does this mean that the Sand Snakes are so blinded by revenge that they are willing to block out everything Oberyn stood for? I get that Elliria has gone kind of crazy over this. She saw his head popped like a grape. But after ruthless, disrespectful display #300 to Doran, why didn't he contain it? She screamed at his face about being in a chair and not avenging Oberyn. She tried to have Mycella killed. After trying to have her killed, he released the girls and let Elliria have luncheon with Jamie and Mycella. Wouldn't Jamie or Mycella have pointed out, "You tried to kill me! I'm not okay with that!" She poured out the wine when they toasted the king. Just... what?

[gingerella]

Yeah Pup, I totally feel you on this one. The Sand Snakes have been poorly written and yet given huge plot devices to look after, it isn't working for this Spitball Waller. They simply don't captivate my interest in any meaningful way and I think you hit the nail on the head. WHY wouldn't Doron have taken care of them, they were clearly out of control and when they tried to kill Myrcella the first time, he should have either had them killed or imprisoned them, preferably the former because he should have known how literally toxic they were/are.  Another weird thing that caught my ear on this crew was right before Ellaria killed Doran, she herself was bitching about and saying derogatory things about Oberyn. I cant remember the exact wording but my ears got bigger and I thought in passing, "WTF was that about, I thought she adored Oberyn..." Then the stabbity stuff started happening and I realized she was talk out her asshole, probably to make Doron think she'd regained her mental composure. But yeah, for all the years of hype leading up to us seeing Dorne, I'm so not impressed or interested right now.  Give me Brienne and the Podettes and day of the week.

Edited May 4, 2016 by gingerella

[Pallas]

Doran put Ellaria on notice after the foiled kidnapping of Myrcella, and her wine-spilling gesture at the reconciliation scene with Jaime and Bronn. He noted that she had made his brother very happy, and given Doran four of his favorite nieces. But, Doran added, he believed in second chances, not in third: she could hereafter submit and acknowledge his authority, or die. Ellaria bent the knee, kissed his hand, made nice in just the right "I'm no fool" provocative way with Jaime, and was allowed to see the traveling party off to King's Landing.

What? I buy the forgiveness, but not the trust. I guess perhaps that kind of Vice-Presidential duty could be seen as humbling: akin to Tywin's dispatching Tyrion to greet Doran (who turned out to be Oberyn and Ellaria) at Joffrey's wedding. But no. It was a fatal misjudgment, like Ned's giving Cersei warning, and for much the same reason: Doran's fealty to family and children.

Yet to me, Ned never looked foolish in the risk he took, while Doran did. Ned accepted that the situation was going to be tragic, beginning with his devastating Robert with the news, then working out the ramifications for the succession, and bearing the brunt of a broken Robert's fury and decline. In his pity for Cersei and sympathy for her children, Ned thought he saw a way to at least spare four lives. And knowingly risked his own in offering her that chance. (He thought Sansa, Arya and his household were already safely away from King's Landing.)

So I'm partly reluctant to even believe that Doran -- with all his admirable tolerance and forethought -- would blunder so badly, so naively, for so little at stake. Then again, Doran isn't Ned; the difference of only a few degrees can be crucial. A Show keeps making the point that we all have our blind spots. Or as stillshimpy once said about Catelyn Stark: people's strengths are also their weaknesses.

Ellaria may have been right that the people of Dorne wanted to avenge Oberyn, and were looking for another war. I'd like to think that Doran -- given a chance to reply -- would have said, "It's nice to be prince; it sucks to rule." But maybe, he was in fact the right prince at the wrong time, or, a good man at a bad time for his best.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Pallas