S06.E01: The Red Woman

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis:

Jon Snow is dead. Daenerys meets a strong man. Cersei sees her daughter again.

[90PercentGravity]

Phew!I thought they weren't going to make their boob quota.

This show is a dick to horses.

I actually cried when Brianne finally got something right.

[Glory]

I actually cried when Brianne finally got something right.

I cried so hard. I was so worried Sansa was going to be captured again. I clapped and cheered too. Easily my favorite part.

[Pallas]

Finally: Sansa takes part in an exchange of vows, and we don't cringe and press MUTE. That was incredibly moving. I loved Squire Pod's prompting, the two men's witnessing this chivalric recognition between two women, and Brienne's laying down Oathkeeper as she honored the oath she made to Catelyn. I also liked that it took Ramsay's men almost no time to find the two fugitives, and that Theon's desperate gambit didn't work at all, but was no less a sacrifice. Will the foursome now head for Castle Black, or if news of Jon's death reaches them, aim for the Iron Islands? 

 

The score for the Dothraki hasn't grown on me. Still too much Atlanta Braves/1950's TV Indians. And the, "Okay, so there're five things as stirring as the first sight of a naked woman" sounded more like an aside on MAD MEN.  When the Khal said, "I lke her; she has spirit," did anyone else reply, "I hate spunk!"?  In fact, Dany's whole exchange with the Khal was a little reminiscent of Mary Richards's job interview with Mr. Grant.  "I burned his body."  "...Oh. My 'Are you married' question."

 

Excellent that Davos and Jon's friends immediately secured his body, and that the mutineers left them, Ghost and Melisandre alive to come up with a plan. 

 

I didn't at all foresee that Ellaria and the Sand Snakes would stage a coup: is there a Martell to elevate to Prince, or will Ellaria take over? Will all of the great houses soon be led by what Tyrion termed "cripples, bastards, and other broken things"?  Stark (check), Lannister (check), Baratheon (check), Greyjoy (check), Bolton (TBD), Tully (unknown), Arryn (for all intents and purposes...) 

 

Why would any of the factions in Mereen destroy Dany's fleet? When I have guests who've outstayed their welcome, the last thing I do is torch their car.

 

I liked Arya's new training regimen, with the nasty camp counselor who is obviously more than that.  

 

Cersei: another surprise that shouldn't have been. When things really go awry, she's often a bad loser, frightened or depressed -- Jon Arryn's death, Bran's discovery and crippling, Jaime's captivity, Blackwater night -- before rallying. And Jame's often been the one to rally her with his recklessness. This time, though, she was fatalistic, even philosophical. Jaime again did the rallying, but with an urgent edge: more Cersei than Cersei, or more Tywin than Jaime.

 

The final reveal was astonishing. The ancient Melisandre, and the vows between Sansa and Brienne were A Show with the Face that I loved.

[DirewolfPup]

So the Red Woman is indeed magic. I will never doubt again!

She may be true magic, but I don't think she's infallible. She was genuinely shocked when Stannis lost half his army before eventually failing. This may be a case of wonderful acting? Meli Meli Meli. Confusing are ye.

 

Sansa and Brienne. Finally. Things for Sansa are finally starting to take a good turn. Now, go kill Walder Frey. Please!

 

Ramsey showed genuine feeling for the dead girl. I was more than surprised at that. Then the "feed her to the dogs" kinda ruined and made that scene for me.

 

The mutiny of the Sand Snakes was a surprise, but it all makes sense in retrospect. Poor Tristain. Poor all of them. The sane people who rule will never win.

[90PercentGravity]

Upon rewatch, it occurs to me that the hounds just disappear during the fight scene. You can see them in the background for a few frames, then they are gone. Did they just not want to show Brienne killing dogs? They didn't mind killing a horse.

[ChocButterfly]

I wasn't expecting that of Melissandre! I really thought she was going to throw herself at the fire, and I kept thinking:"No, no! Don't kill yourself before you resurrect Jon!!". But then, she turned old. Hmmm, I'm not that surprised though, I can buy it. She is magic, but she's not that smart. Plus that means she'll get to save Jon! Am I being too naive? I didn't even like Jon. Anyway, it seems the necklace it's the key to her magic. Maybe if they put it on Jon...

 

I am so glad Brienne finally saved someone!!! And specially glad it was Sansa! Uff, that was a relief!! Seriously, I think I couldn't continue watching if Sansa was returned to Ramsey.

 

The Sand Sankes are real snakes....!

 

Overall, I liked it! They jumped right into the plot and we got to see development.

[Pallas]

This show is a dick to horses. -- 90% Gravity

 

This comment made me laugh out loud, even as I also share your dismay. From the Mountain's jousting stallion, to Drogo's and Dany's mounts,to the played-for-laughs, taking-out of cavalry steeds by clever rascals such as Bronn, to Stannis's warhorse running in terror with a wreath of flames...

 

Sometimes we're obviously meant to sympathize with the nobleman's horse, but at other times, identify with the common man on foot. 

 

Upon rewatch, it occurs to me that the hounds just disappear during the fight scene. You can see them in the background for a few frames, then they are gone. Did they just not want to show Brienne killing dogs? They didn't mind killing a horse.

 

No, no, he's laying down, and just about to grunt and roll!

 

But I bet you're right, 90%. Of course unlike dogs, horses are now removed from the lives of most people in our culture: they associate TV horses with other TV horses, and with rarefied occupations from cowboy to Queen. I'm not sure we've seen any of Ramsay's hounds harmed (in either hunt scene or in Yara's failed rescue). Only the two direwolves, for strategic reasons, political (Lady) or military (Robb's wolf).

 

And so the showrunners chose against the irony of juxtaposing the death cries of Ramsay's hounds with the keening of Jon Snow's wolf. Or of Brienne's wiping the blood of a half-dozen dogs from her sword before laying it at Lady Sansa's feet...

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Game Of Thrones Lets It All Hang Out
Come join the party, even if you're already dead!

[Anothermi]

Well!

NOT disappointed.

Surprised by that.

But thankful.

 

Agree with the shared sentiment that one big thing that sticks with me was the Brienne/Sansa oath scene. Brienne's character has always been so entertaining but she's not been able to achieve any of her most cherished goals. Glad she's been allowed that at least. What ever else comes their way I feel I have closure on that - and I didn't realize (until we got it) how badly I needed that. Feeling closure for Catelyn as well. (RIP) I especially liked that poor abused Sansa now has - symbolically - both the protection of her mother (sending Brienne to her) AND her father (by way of Oathkeeper's Valerian steel).

 

Looks like Jon is really gone <sob>... Melissandre's reaction to his death was more about self-doubt than an impulse to save him. (Oh no! Even this prediction of mine is wrong.) Thoros of Mir fell on Beric ASAP in order to bring him back. There seems to have been a fair amount of time - some hours at least - since Jon's execution. 

 

Then she head's off to wallow. I say that because we've never seen her with her neck-piece off. Taking it off seemed to be an act of renunciation or perhaps contrition? I thought she was preparing to die. Revealing that she is actually an old woman was powerful and I find it affects how I view her previous actions.

 

I detect a theme of abasement in order to self-renew running through this episode. Is there a rubics colour for that?

 

Melissandre ... if she doesn't die - reverting to/accepting her real, ordinary, non-magical self. That makes her more like Thoros of Mir. Perhaps she could find stronger magic in her natural state?

 

Theon... went from envious, arrogant, blood thirsty and insecure to completely and utterly broken. Even with his childhood connection to Sansa it took him two tries to assert his self-will and help her. Even that was fatalistic because he knew it could end in death, but he didn't fear it. That is quite a character arc. I think I've forgiven him. At least for now.

 

Sansa... pretty much a victim for most of the story, but this episode she, albeit haltingly, accepted the roll of Lady Stark as she accepted Brienne as her sworn protector. Really hoping we get to see her grow stronger.

 

Arya... she knew what she wanted since she was a young girl. Every life experience strengthened that in her. Her self image became her weakness. Now she really IS no one. But the faceless ones have not abandoned her.

 

Danaerys... well, she doesn't fit the theme yet. Her current predicament seems like all her others. I don't see her developing any insight at this point.

 

That's it for theme spotting.

 

I'm appreciating the fact that TPTB made the radical change of actors for the Daario Naharis character. He is so much more relate-able than the original one.

 

 

[Llywela]

I still can't quite believe they are leaving Jon dead. Edd's grief really hit me - with Sam having gone off to learn Maestering (yes? did I remember that right?), Edd is now the last man standing of their little gang of friends. Davos seems to be in the right place at the right time to take command of those last few stalwart Jon supporters - and what odds will anyone give me that Edd has gone to enlist support from the Wildlings? I can't think of anyone else in the vicinity who'd owe their lives to Jon and be willing to make a stand for him.

 

Also - how long before corpse burning becomes essential? If Jon was going to be resurrected, that's the cut-off, right? There'd be no coming back from ash. But the whole point of burning is to prevent zombification, so...how long before that kicks in? Or is south of the Wall safe for now? Was Jon just taking no chances when he burned all those other corpses?

 

So many questions!

 

I will admit it warmed the cockles of my heart to see Sansa and Theon hug - that's the first truly comforting, caring, meaningful human contact either has had in such a long time now. And now they've hooked up with Brienne and Pod...well, they still aren't safe, but they now have loyal allies, which again is as safe as either has experienced in such a long time. And Brienne! How much it meant to her to fulfill her vow to Catelyn at long last.

 

This is the second season of Sand Snakes (or whatever those warrior girls of Dorne like to call themselves) and I still couldn't put a name to any of them. Bye-bye, Alexander Siddig.

 

I'm not sure I see the point yet of Dany's new story other than a delaying tactic - just when she'd finally started to connect with the main Westerosi storylines having been joined by Tyrion and Varys, she's sent right back to square one: along among the Dothraki.

 

I'm also very glad that the Daario actor was changed (I'd forgotten his name until you said it, Anothermi) - I really disliked the first actor. But having said that, I didn't much take to the new actor until I watched Orphan Black between seasons, and having seen him in that, I have a new appreciation for him!

 

So Arya's blindness is just another stage of her Faceless Man training, then? That makes sense - well, it fits with what we've seen of their training programme so far, at least!

 

Oh, and stuff happened in King's Landing, too, I guess. I'd forgotten about those religious nutters that somehow got control of everything there.

 

Welcome back, Show!

Edited April 25, 2016 by Llywela

[janjan]

I must be weird. I did like the Sansa-save, especially Pod -- but my favorite scene was Roose's put-down of Evil Ramsay for letting Sansa get away. "You're nothing without an heir. I hope Lady Walda's pregnancy is a boy." Oh Roose, you can do silky menace better than anyone.

 

I hope White Stumbler will forgive me; I'm gonna repeat his post from another forum. Maybe that will  induce him to come back here to us more often:

WS: I think that Mel will somehow inhabit Jon Snow's corpse and lead a Wildling army to defeat the Bolton's at Winterfell. Her prophecy saw the Bolton banners brought low, and her walking the battlements at Winterfell, but I think she is some ancient entity that is about to change form into JS. Ghost will recognize that "Jon" is not the same and will flee, possibly finding Sansa and her small court.

I don't buy it, actually. Jon is the central character of A Show, at least since Ned's death. He's gotta stay Jon. He's just gotta. Somehow. Come on, Jon. Wake up.

[Shadowlass]

Holy smokes, there are so few of us now!

 

I was so relieved to see both Sansa and Theon survived their jump, and Alfie Allen is really doing a good job selling Theon's remorse. And seeing Brienne and Pod ride in to the rescue was such a satisfying moment for the characters; Brienne finally being able to keep her oath to Cat was so moving. All she's ever wanted was to be allowed to serve an honorable master.

 

*whispers* And I might be starting to ship Sansa and Pod just a little...

[Anothermi]

I must be weird. I did like the Sansa-save, especially Pod -- but my favorite scene was Roose's put-down of Evil Ramsay for letting Sansa get away.

 

I hope White Stumbler will forgive me; I'm gonna repeat his post from another forum. Maybe that will  induce him to come back here to us more often

 

<<offers a big bear hug>>

OF COURSE  you are weird. We wouldn't have it any other way! Yes, Roose is still the main man of the Bolton bastards. Sharpe, but subtle.

 

May the swiftest ravens take your subliminal message to White Stumbler's ears.

<<hands Janjan a cask of mead as the rest of us are drinking grog>>

 

Shadowlass wrote -

 Holy smokes, there are so few of us now!

    *whispers* And I might be starting to ship Sansa and Pod just a little...

 

Welcome back Shadowlass. Yes we have been decimated by the steathyness of the bookwalking hordes - and perhaps the disappointment that was Season 5. Help yourself to your drink of choice, and I think the mutton might be done as well. If veg is your thing we don't have any. This place is well off the beaten track.

 

Bold bit: It hadn't crossed my mind but now you've proposed it I'd like permission to board that ship. ;-)

[ChocButterfly]

Sorry, Pod is not a noble. Sansa can only marry nobles. Although I guess they could have a fling, but I really don't see it.

 

That WS speculation seems interesting, but I'd rather have Jon come back himself, because if not, what's the point? Anyway, Mel's visions have always been kind of idiotic, or she is the idiot one. She was so sure Stannis would win the battle because she saw the Bolton' s flag burning?Silly, that could gave been any battle she saw.

 

Can Ellaria be Queen of Dorne if she's a bastard? Or is it Princess? Can they have ruling women princesses? I guess etiquette wouldn't really matter with her.

[Pallas]

Brienne's character has always been so entertaining but she's not been able to achieve any of her most cherished goals. Glad she's been allowed that at least. What ever else comes their way I feel I have closure on that - and I didn't realize (until we got it) how badly I needed that. Feeling closure for Catelyn as well. (RIP) I especially liked that poor abused Sansa now has - symbolically - both the protection of her mother (sending Brienne to her) AND her father (by way of Oathkeeper's Valerian steel).

 

That's lovely, Anothermi. Sansa's parents with her, through Brienne and Oathkeeper, made of Ned's sword.  

 

Revealing that she is actually an old woman was powerful and I find it affects how I view her previous actions.

 

Utterly. 

 

Melissandre ... if she doesn't die - reverting to/accepting her real, ordinary, non-magical self. That makes her more like Thoros of Mir. Perhaps she could find stronger magic in her natural state?

 

Brilliant, and makes perfect sense. Not only may she gain power by foregoing the transformation, doing so may count as a necessary sacrifice. I'm still convinced it's Melisandre who will revive Jon, at Davos's urging.  

 

Also - how long before corpse burning becomes essential? If Jon was going to be resurrected, that's the cut-off, right? There'd be no coming back from ash. But the whole point of burning is to prevent zombification, so...how long before that kicks in? Or is south of the Wall safe for now? Was Jon just taking no chances when he burned all those other corpses? -- Llywela

 

Well, it's mighty cold up at Castle Black, so there's that...We've been told only that the resurrected body must have its head (Thoros, gently, in answer to Anya's hope) but I'd guess that ash is also out of the question. It seems to me that zombonis get made from dead mammals reanimated in the presence of a White Walker, and at its command. An excellent enlistment system, since dead mammals seem to follow the arrival of White Walkers like the flowers in spring. 

 

Jon counseled Stannis to burn all Free Folk, Baratheon and Watch dead north of the Wall so they could not later be drafted by the approaching Walker army.  The Watch burn their dead ceremonially, and because any brother capable of cracking the frozen ground can't be spared from latrine duty.   

 

Jon is the central character of A Show, at least since Ned's death. He's gotta stay Jon. He's just gotta. Somehow. Come on, Jon. Wake up. -- Janjan

 

"Each time, a little less," I believe Beric warned about how he came back, but still. Yes. Jon's got plenty that could be a little less and still be Jon. 

[Anothermi]

The Watch burn their dead ceremonially, and because any brother capable of cracking the frozen ground can't be spared from latrine duty.

 

<< holding my sides, Pallas>> So True!

[Pallas]

I understand why Davos is rallying the Free Folk to aid the Jon Snow Loyalists. But wouldn't Jon be completely opposed to a conflict among the Watch brethren, and between the Watch he served and the Free Folk he saved? And wouldn't the moment before such a battle be a fine time for a resurrected Jon to make an appearance? 

 

The impact on the erstwhile combatants would be like unburnt Dany wreathed by baby dragons. Even the Free Folk might bend the knee, together with all the Watch.

[DirewolfPup]

On 4/26/2016 at 11:17 PM, Pallas said:

I understand why Davos is rallying the Free Folk to aid the Jon Snow Loyalists. But wouldn't Jon be completely opposed to a conflict among the Watch brethren, and between the Watch he served and the Free Folk he saved? And wouldn't the moment before such a battle be a fine time for a resurrected Jon to make an appearance? 

Davos' choices right now are pretty slim. I don't think they can escape with their lives if they tried a pacifist's approach. Jon wouldn't want to kill any of his Watch brothers, but that was before they stabbed him. Plus, Jon has already killed several Watch members when the skull drinker and company was holding onto Craester's Keep. (Ugh... I hate remembering that story line.) He also killed what's-his-face before being welcomed into Mance's good graces. He's actually killed a lot of Watch brothers. The jerk.

[Anothermi]

True dat, DirewolfPup. Jon has killed his fair share of both Nights Watch and Free Folk. His goal is (was) to unite them all, but he wasn't above siding strategically. I think that is what Davos is doing. There is no guarantee the Edd (at least he has good reason now to look on the bleak side) will be able to convince the Free Folk to come to their aid.

But Pallas' proposition - that this would be a good time to resurrect Jon - would certainly be true. Resurrection is a powerful symbol.

[90PercentGravity]

I feel like Mel seeing Jon fighting at Winterfel is actually him fighting in the army of the dead. 

[Pallas]

Quote

Davos' choices right now are pretty slim. I don't think they can escape with their lives if they tried a pacifist's approach.

You're right, Direwolf Pup: the conflict between the Free Folk and the Watch is not Davos's fight to avoid! Heck, true to his Stark-like principles and rigor, he's already deliberately yet instinctively chosen the side with three guys and a body. (Plus wolf). I just meant that thematically and dramatically, A Show might be choose to insert Jon's resurrection at the moment the two sides are about to come to blows.

[DirewolfPup]

One benefit for Davo & Co is the apparent lack of a guard at the door. Unless I missed something, they may be able to sneak out?

My mind tells me that is not the way the story will go. A story is theatrical. People don't just sneak out. There's got to be some drama to it. Like jumping off castle walls into a pile of fluffy snow. Or Arya starving and chasing pigeons.

[gingerella]

Al hail my brethren of the Spitball Wall!  I come from lands far away across many seas to be with you now, and to watch A Show in brotherhood.  And to the Gods old and new, for shits sake someone pass me a mug of ale!

I just watched S6E1, and I guess I have become either hardened or so annoyed with A Show from S5, that I did not react in the same way many of you did. Firstly, I felt many if not all the scenes were too rushed and lacked gravitas. For example, in the Sansa/Brienne scene, it felt forced and rapid, and if I remember correctly, Sansa never bothered to ask who the hell Pod and Brienne actually were...did she and I missed it?!  I mean shit, if I was Sansa and had been abused by so many people for so long, I certainly would have at least asked, "hey, who the fuck are you and how do you know who I am?!"  Seriously...

The scene with Ramsey, meh. I didn't get that much love from him. I mean, he feeds his lady love's body to the dogs?  Again I ask, seriously?

The KL scene was exactly what I expected - Cersei is bereft over Myrcella's death, and the young Prince gets killed by snakes on board. No surprises there. Like, at all.

Dorne, also not surprised. At all.

The Arya scene was cruel, but alas A Show loves to be cruel so, sorry to be redundant but, seriously?

Quote

 "Okay, so there're five things as stirring as the first sight of a naked woman" sounded more like an aside on MAD MEN.  - Pallas -

Pallas, I did not think of Mad Men when the Khal said that, I thought of this: ...

The only scene that I felt invested in was with Jon Snow...Firstly, any scene with a dire wolf in it is aces in my book so GO GHOST!  I am rather surprised that they killed Jon and did not kill Ghost first. I'd have thought they'd done that straight away. Don't know if that's sloppy writing/story telling, or something slipped through the cracks.  I am trying to figure out how Jon becomes reanimated, other than becoming a WW, which is NOT an option for A Viewer. That would suck balls. So I am left with these options for Jon:

a. He wargs into Ghost and lives on that way. Which would suck because Kit Harrington is nice eye candy to me, and well, much as I love a wolf, I don't ogle wolves so, yanno.

b. Mel brings him back the way that Brotherhood Without Banners dude does it (is that Berrick Dondarrion, or something like that?).

c. Mel sort of wargs into Jon's body. When she removed that necklace and got old, I figure the necklace brings her power, obviously. Maybe she is an ancient magician who inhabits younger bodies for strength?  If so, maybe she/it inhabited Mel's young body, and now will inhabit Jon's young body (and now she gets a penis...we saw what she can shoot out her cooch vis a vis Smoke Baby Baratheon, let's see what she can do with a penis now...woohoo!).  Maybe she got all the strength she could out of Mel's body and as the body wears out, she loses her powers, hence her bad judgment calls re: Princess Shireen and Stannis's battle outcomes. 

Mel says she sees "Jon fighting in flames at Winterfell"...could that be connected with his likely Targ blood, or maybe on a dragon, or, Or, OR...what??? When she ogled Jon originally, it was to try to seduce him. She thought, IIRC, he might be The One. Perhaps her picker was off and he wasn't The One, but the body/shell she would inhabit next but she didn't realize that in the moment?

One thing's for sure, the magic and environment/nature pieces of A Show as a Rubik's Cube are in full motion this season. I just hope the story telling gets better and less hurried.  What sayeth you all, am I alone in what I'm seeing? Am I the Arya of The Habitat?

Edited April 30, 2016 by gingerella

[90PercentGravity]

Sansa knew who Brianne and Podcaster were because she encountered them at the bar when she was traveling with Littlefinger. Brianne tried to get her to come with them then and told her everything. 

[Pallas]

Thank you, janjan, for remembering and quoting White Stumbler's previous post about Melisandre's being an "ancient entity." That was brilliant on his part.

And welcome home, gingerella! After reading your post I rewatched the ep and still was very moved by the Sansa/Brienne scene, even without any suspense around the fight before. It felt just long enough, closing with that drawn-out close-up of Brienne's resolute, calm face. An outlier finally certain of her purpose in the world, because at last she received the world's acknowledgement in return. "Rise."

I don't see Jon's returning as someone who isn't human, or as anyone else. As janjan said: "He's gotta stay Jon." Or as Ygrette might have said, "You do you, Jon Snow." Jon's role in the story isn't only to fight, it's to lead -- specifically, to inspire trust, make peace between factions and rally them together. Ghost would be better suited to that than Melisandre, from what we've seen. Jon's been trying to do in the North what Dany has been trying to do in the South, helped by a totemic creature and a very small band of die-hards. His mission to transform the culture and purpose of the Watch he led is akin to Dany's among the slave-societies she conquered. Both are right now neutralized by the resistance they fomented, yet they left behind able lieutenants: people who can hold the line while finding a way to revive him or restore her.

But with Jon, it's his example of bold selflessness, his Starkian earnestness and honor (which even Thorne acknowledged), his maturing from good lad to strong lord that make his case for him. Jon in the body of his wolf or Melisande in the body of Jon aren't the same, can't do the same.

Just about the only person we didn't revisit in this episode? Sam. Cracking the books in the Old City. What if Edd (also?) went to fetch him, rather than/along with the Free Folk? How far along is he in his studies? Still, I still believe the purpose of showing us Melisandre's native state is to set up her redirecting her powers to the task of resurrecting Jon. Not by taking on his youth and "fires within," but by giving him her own.

[janjan]

Pallas, we also didn't revisit Littlefinger in E1. Everything is all his doing. Well, except for the White Walkers.

Hey Ginger, welkommen! As 90% said, Brienne has offered Sansa her services before, but Littlefinger undercut her by correctly pointing out all the dead people she was sworn to protect.

Mel with a penis?  Squirting out spaghetti babies? (Sorry.)

Why do Jorah and Dario remind me of Hope and Crosby? Betcha it will take them at least half the season to spring Dany out of Widowville. Now that her fleet is burned (who did that, by the way), she will be removed from the Westeros action for yet another season. Sigh. There will be no dragons to barbecue the Boltons.

Anothermi, love your avatar. Er, what is it?

[Anothermi]

Quote

Anothermi, love your avatar. Er, what is it? - Janjan

Thanks! It's, uh, humm...

I think it's *AcK*: Fearsome Fur Ball of Death! So much more dangerous than a dragon. Mid flight.

[Anothermi]

Yay! Gingerella is back! Always good to have your beat-of-a-different-drum perspective to shake up my own perceptions.

I agree with you that the KL and Bolton scenes didn't do much for me (except the reversing of roles between Cercei and Jaime). For me it was just the Breinne/Sansa/Pod scene and old Melissandre that I had a strong reaction to. I had such low expectations that I was relieved that the first episode basically just continued from and updated us from where we left off.

Quote

...I did not think of Mad Men when the Khal said that, I thought of this: ...  - Gingerella

Hee! loved the link. Of course, Monty Python and the Spanish Inquisition. Perfect.

As far as your speculation regarding Jon Snow, I would be greatly disappointed if A Show decided all of a sudden to make Jon (or even Mel) capable of warging. Of all the Starks only Bran Muffin has been shown to be capable of warging/future seeing (Walnut Kid could, apparently, see things happening elsewhere - or at least know about them but not the future and to this point has never inhabited his direwolf). Mel has had some skills, but she's always used fire for her visions and smoke in her births, never animals. To give either of them the ability to inhabit an animal at this point? I'd see that as slipping into bad writing. I'd hate for A Show to completely abandon logical extension of character - which they've been pretty good at maintaining so far. Jon and Ghost haven't been shown to have that close of a connection - often being separated for long periods of time. Although, when thinking  back on that, it seems that Ghost abandoned Jon just before he met with the Free Folk - which was very savvy of him in retrospect. Maybe Ghost knows a lot more about Jon than Jon does about Ghost?

My final concern about saving Jon via warging comes from what Jojen (remember him?) reminded Bran back when they were slogging their interminable way to find Root Dude: (paraphrased because I'd need WS help for the actual dialog) YOU can't live off of what Summer eats. Also, Jon's competition for Ygritte - Orell the warg -  was actually inhabiting a bird when he was killed and we (or maybe just I) wondered if he stayed inside that bird. If he did, he hasn't been able to help any of the Free Folk since then. I just can't accept characters acquiring fully developed NEW magical skills.

Remember, GRRM killed off SEAN BEAN! What makes Jon so special?

[gingerella]

Hail, anothermi!  As always, it's great to lob some spitballs, see where they go *thwack* on the wall, and then hear how others of the Wall interpret them.  I totally get your point about how it would be odd that suddenly Jon or Mel can warg...SO...going off that, if we take those two options off the table, and we think that Jon still might be resurrected somehow, that basically leaves two options that A Show has shown us that could be legit:

a. Jon sadly becomes a WW because the idiots in charge now at the Wall don't bother to burn his body. Maybe the new Lord Commander asshole will leave his body outside as a reminder to those who might consider turning on him, and since he doesn't seem to have actually seen what Jon's seen in terms of WWs, it could come back to bite him in the ass when the WWs come strolling into Castle Black eventually.

OR

b. Mel figures out how to raise Jon from the dead a la the Brothers Without Banners way.  They also followed the same Lord of Light, didn't they? I cannot remember if Mel knew of them or not, and we also saw that other Red Woman that Tyrion saw when he first emerged from his storage unit box wherever it was that he disembarked after he was spirited away from KL.

OR

c. If Jon is indeed half Targ, perhaps if he is put on a funeral pyre he will end up coming out somehow reborn a la Dany and the Dragoons? Could that be possible?

I'm thinking something else too...remember at the big WW battle scene last season, when the King WW dude seemed to linger his gaze on Jon as Jon's ship pulled away into the sea? Why did he stare down Jon like that?  What was it about Jon that both he (King WW) and Mel were/are drawn to?    Could it also be possible that people of power are drawn to Jon because he himself holds some future key? Magic perhaps, and only those who wield magic can sense it? I don't know...And...please sit down for this part...could it be that the King WW was staring down Jon because the King WW is...wait for it...Jon's own uncle Benjen?  Benjen was known as a kickass NW, wasn't he? He never comes back but his horse does...we never see him again, off the canvas of A Show for nearly 5 seasons.  Until we see King WW...and I keep wondering why that dude was staring at Jon so intently...Could Benjen have been somehow made into the King WW what with all his kickassness as a NW?  Could it be that in the end, Jon joins the WWs and the King - assuming it's his uncle - and the WWs turn into the "good side", battling the shitheads of KL, of whom there are many?  I mean, there's a lot of cleaning house to do in a lot of these kingdoms - the Boltons, the Lannisters (minus Tyrion), the Snakes, Old Man Iron Islands...etc.  What if the WWs were turned around to be fighting on the side of good because Jon joins them...stick that in yer pipe, me brothers of the Wall, and smoke it for a while...

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Remember, GRRM killed off SEAN BEAN! What makes Jon so special? - anothermi -

Yes, you are right of course, A Show shows no mercy, particularly for those characters with character...hehe...anyway, I guess I don't think Jon can really be dead because A Show has set up a possible scenario that is so strongly leaning towards a final triumvirate of Dany/Tyrion/Jon...yanno?

Edited May 1, 2016 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Hey, ging, my wacky spitball slinging friend. I quite like the one that turn the WW into to good guys. :-D I thought we might have even tossed that one around way back in the early seasons.

But we've been missing one of the puzzle pieces since - Season 4? perhaps. Bran Muffin and the , uh, Bran Flakes. They made it to Root Dude - who toyed with Bran by making him briefly think he would become a Real Boy! - I mean a walking boy (not a White Walking boy). S'truth (old medevil-ish exclamation there), I almost forgot about Bran and his Quest. That's got to come back into play at some point... soon... please. His trajectory has been worse than Danys for going nowhere. He's been gone so long I expect to see grey hair and beard when he next appears. (And Meera and Summer are with him - I think) Anyway, when last we saw them, undead folk tried to keep them away from Root Dude and the Tree pixies (children of the forest?) I always associate reanimated dead people with the WW, so that could be a major flaw in the "good guys" scenario.

[Pallas]

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Pallas, we also didn't revisit Littlefinger in E1. Everything is all his doing. Well, except for the White Walkers.

Oh, that's true, janjan! And now we may anticipate his reaction if he returns to Winterfell before mustering his army in the Vale, and discovers that Sansa has escaped, fleeing Ramsay's torture.

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Remember, GRRM killed off SEAN BEAN! What makes Jon so special?

Heh. Because Jon, like Dany, is a wheel-breaker. All the other major characters still seek to serve or hold the topmost spoke on the wheel. Jon is a visionary: he sees past self-interest and more, even, than "the good of the realm."  

I think GRRM killed off Ned Stark to make room for the Young Starks, whose story it is, along with the Young Targ and Youngish Lannister. Along with Robert and Tywin, Ned was part of a very brief Westerosi Greatest Generation: the combatants of the revolution that overthrew the Targareyns. Yet once the Mad King was kingslain, all that got anyone was King Robert, and Cersei's incest bastards. 

The younger generation face a crisis greater than kings or kingdoms. Jon, especially, sees the peril, and says that cooperation and not competition is the answer. He is the voice of the only future in which the living survive the dead. That future may do without heroes, but Jon, Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany are the essential heroes of their time.

[gingerella]

anothermi, I remember Root Dude et all quite well, though it has indeed been a seemingly long ass time since we last saw them. IIRC, Jojen bit the dust a la the zomboni's whilst trying to get Bran safely to Root Dude, yes?  If indeed Bran and Summer are still safely alive, then yes, add them to the list of people destined to at least try to save this humanity from itself and whatever is out there. I say 'whatever' because now I'm starting to think more about the WWs and that they may have some other thing driving them, that will make them, the WWs look like the oppressed rather than the oppressors. How far back does this all go? I mean, is there something even more menacing than the WW/zomboni army that is pressuring the WWs to behave as they do? It's starting to feel like one of those dressing rooms where you can see yourself reflected in a mirror ad infinitum...

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Remember, GRRM killed off SEAN BEAN! What makes Jon so special? - anothermi -

 

Heh. Because Jon, like Dany, is a wheel-breaker. All the other major characters still seek to serve or hold the topmost spoke on the wheel. Jon is a visionary: he sees past self-interest and more, even, than "the good of the realm."  

I think GRRM killed off Ned Stark to make room for the Young Starks, whose story it is, along with the Young Targ and Youngish Lannister. Along with Robert and Tywin, Ned was part of a very brief Westerosi Greatest Generation: the combatants of the revolution that overthrew the Targareyns. Yet once the Mad King was kingslain, all that got anyone was King Robert, and Cersei's incest bastards. 

The younger generation face a crisis greater than kings or kingdoms. Jon, especially, sees the peril, and says that cooperation and not competition is the answer. He is the voice of the only future in which the living survive the dead. That future may do without heroes, but Jon, Bran, Arya, Tyrion and Dany are the essential heroes of their time. - Pallas -

 

Oh Pallas, I love this!  I don't know if we've discussed this in quite this way yet or not, but yes, Yes, YES, YESSSSSSS, a thousand times yes!  I love that the younger generation bears the burden of real change in A Show. This story has shown that the old ways of doing things always seem to lead to the same options. Get revenge, then someone gets revenge on you, rinse and repeat, with a never-ending cycle of despair that really never resolves anything. And yet all the while, this few generations that are alive right now have never firsthand lived through The Long Night of Winter, and they are squabbling as if things can continue on and on as they always have known them to. The only way to break the cycle is to break the wheel, so of course Jon's destiny is intertwined with Dany's and there's simply no way for him to be off the canvas for good. Otherwise what has Jon gained in his quest to save everyone from themselves?

In this line of thinking, I can see that the second string of folks like Ser Jorah and hunky whatshisname are sort of still clueless in many ways as to what the way forward is. I think Jorah still envisions Dany marching into KL to sit on the Iron Throne, which will be dust anyway if the WWs and zombonis make their way to KL...so yeah, it seems like it's only a very few folks that you mention above Pallas, who get what is coming and know what needs to be done.

It'll be interesting if Dany shows some sort of growth this season...I hope she's not entirely off stage right for S6, I'd like to see her "get it" finally, and realize that her role is much bigger than just trying to reclaim some silly, ugly throne in KL.

[janjan]

Pallas: Hmmm, so Jon is the motivator of the younger generation, sort of a Westeros Bernie Sanders? Makes sense. I'm nostalgic for Ned, and for little Ned, who was killed at the Red Wedding before he even got born. RIP, Neds. But Jon will make it right. He'll wake up. You'll see. < pats Jon's face frantically >

Aha! Anothermi's avatar is a kitty?! I thought it was a furry thing like Chewbacca or the "scary new ideas" commercial, with tiny eyes and a gaping brown mouth. Oh, it's a kitty. Hi, AcK.

[Pallas]

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Jon sadly becomes a WW because the idiots in charge now at the Wall don't bother to burn his body.... (snip) could it be that the King WW was staring down Jon because the King WW is...wait for it...Jon's own uncle Benjen?  Benjen was known as a kickass NW, wasn't he? 

Indeed he was, gingerella -- First Ranger as well as Second Timothy Dalton. But maybe the greatest disadvantage we claim as Unsullied is this: we don't know fuck-all about the White Walkers and zombonis. A Show has truly Shown-Not-Told where they're concerned, and we could use a little exposition here. 

My impression (and it's only that) is that the White Walkers aren't made from slain humans: that's the zombonis, who revive, as ice-blue-eyed drones, at the command of a White Walker, and then continue to rot away until reduced to animated skeletons. The White Walkers share the ice-blue eyes but seem to have a more human form -- flesh as well as bones -- though that may be only because they wear full suits of armor (and ride zomponies, as befits an officer corps). I believe, though, that White Walkers are somehow made from human male infants: such as all of Craster's sons. We witnessed the creepy ceremony where one of Gilly's baby brothers was placed by a Walker on an alter, after which the baby, still alive, opened its new ice-eyes. 

So if that's correct, I don't think we'll see Benjen as a White Walker: just another of a horde of zombonis. Whether he's recognizable will I guess depend on well-preserved he was. Still, they make 'em tough, those Starks.

janjan, I love your Jon Sanders! One thing GRRM probably couldn't imagine was a presidential primary season more outlandish than the burlesque War of Five Kings Joffrey staged for the Westerosi .0001%, with dwarves. And as the pigeon pie was served, no heed was paid that climate change is coming...

[janjan]

Hee! Pallas, you are too funny! Climate change is coming. Hee!

I was hoping that the King WW would turn out to be Benjen, just so that Benjen would come back. But I guess you're right -- it was babies, not adults, that got to be WWs..

[Shadowlass]

On 4/25/2016 at 3:25 PM, Anothermi said:

Shadowlass wrote -

 

Welcome back Shadowlass. Yes we have been decimated by the steathyness of the bookwalking hordes - and perhaps the disappointment that was Season 5. Help yourself to your drink of choice, and I think the mutton might be done as well. If veg is your thing we don't have any. This place is well off the beaten track.

 

Bold bit: It hadn't crossed my mind but now you've proposed it I'd like permission to board that ship. ;-)

There is plenty of room on the Sansa/Podrick ship! Welcome aboard!

[gingerella]

33 minutes ago, Shadowlass said:

There is plenty of room on the Sansa/Podrick ship! Welcome aboard!

Oooo, can I get a seat on that ship too? I like what I'm thinking...

[Anothermi]

ChocButterfly mentioned that they are an impossible couple (paraphrasing here) because Sansa has to be with a Noble, but my desire to see Sansa and Pod together is strictly that he has proven to be a thoughtful, kind person - and she deserves that change in her life (apologies to Tyrion who was also thoughtful and kind, but was a Lannister!).

AND, now that I think about it, Pod was a big hit with all the prostitutes at Littlefinger's brothel were willing to be with him for free... she deserves some of that too.

[DirewolfPup]

On 5/9/2016 at 1:59 PM, Anothermi said:

AND, now that I think about it, Pod was a big hit with all the prostitutes at Littlefinger's brothel were willing to be with him for free... she deserves some of that too.

I could think of a few ladies that deserve some of that...