DC Comics: Rebirth and Reboot

[millennium]

Legends of the Dark Knight was a good title.   Some great artists.   Matt Wagner was one of my favorites on Batman in that series.  

In addition to TV's Flash and Arrow, this team approach in Detective is strongly reminiscent of (please, not again!) The Dark Knight Returns, at the end when Batman assembles and trains a Batman army.  Which is also a turnoff.  

Edited June 12, 2016 by millennium

[starri]

Batman and the Outsiders.  Would have been the easiest thing in the world.

However, I'm fine with Detective being the team book.  It helps that it has the characters I'm interested in and no Damian.

[millennium]

Guess I'm a purist.   Detective 27 is where Batman was born, as a lone figure in the night.   To me, this development is the latest manifestation of how much DC fails to understand its own characters or respect their history.   Just my opinion.

[starri]

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why they felt we needed these XXXXX: Rebirth titles that were separate from the actual #1s.  I read Titans: Rebirth.  While the story--Wally's back, but none of his friends remember him--is just a perfunctory way to give people warm fuzzies (and I got them too), it also confused the hell out of me because so much of it referred back, without any explanation, to Titan Hunt, something I've not read.  Couldn't we just have started with the actual story?

I will say Brett Booth draws the sexiest Arsenal and Garth I've ever seen.

[Lantern7]

I'm trying to get amped for the Deathstroke relaunch. Here are interview pieces from CBR and Comics Alliance. At his peak, Priest was a writing ass-kicker. Here's hoping he still have some gas in the tank.

[Kromm]

Wow. DC Comics really hotted up Betty in their new adaptation of The Flintstones.

[Lantern7]

If I'm not mistaken, Amanda Conner did that cover. Also, if you're a diehard fan of the show, the comic might be a little jarring.

Anybody keeping up with Rebirth? I thought Deathstroke was good, but I want to see more of the story before judging it.

[starri]

They've been through a full two months of Wonder Woman, which is tracking both the story that's set in the current time period as well as the Year One story that's switching off with it.  It's four issues total, two for each half.

It may just be that I love Nicola Scott's art so much, but the Year One story, which has taken Diana's origin and basically streamlined and modernized it (WITHOUT any twists there just to be shocking) is just so much better than the other.  After Steve crashes on Themyscira, even though the Amazons can't understand what he's saying, they look over the things he had with him, determine that he seems like a good man, and believe that the gods wouldn't have sent him to them if they weren't supposed to help him.  When they hold their contest to determine who will leave with him to be their champion, it's decided by Hippolyta taking his pistol (and they'd never seen a gun before), and shooting at the remaining women.  Diana is the only one who manages to block the shot.  The panels took my breath away.

[Kromm]

Just read Blue Beetle #1.

It was okay, but I gotta say I am tired of EVERY reboot of BB being pretty much exactly the same thing (and there have been a shocking number of them in a short period of time... is it 4 times in 10 years, I think?). Oh, I understand that the Ted Kord angle is brand new, and in fact Kord being a bit off his rocker in the way the issue showed was quite entertaining. But Jaime's family, friends, and even Brenda's evil aunt seem to come out so similarly every time. And maybe some might see that as good (you know, like how Spider-Man is only really good if its follows most of the classic character and support cast notes). But I dunno. It winds up feeling like they're all on a leash and get yanked back every few years. There's no sense of real grown for the supporting cast as a result (even Spider-Man's support cast grows, or at least alternates the supporting characters who are central to him every few years, even if it always circles back to MJ, Harry and usually Flash as the core). 

I hope after they establish that Jaime's support characters are consistent, they fairly quickly move on to them doing new stuff. I mean aside from Jaime himself, who certainly is fitting that with Kord. 

[DisneyBoy]

Starri, I'm glad you are enjoying the new Wonder Woman books. I'm a fan as well, but have just been too burned out by all of the tweaks the last few years to get invested in the book again. I picked up a couple of random issues of Sensation Comics featuring Wonder Woman when the story or art appealed to me. I'm thrilled that Greg Rucka is back, but I think I'll wait to see what comes once he's established a rhythm and the dust from this latest  relaunch has settled. I find it really interesting that he's finally developing the mythology behind the plant god that controls the Cheetah's life, but then there's other things that kind of turn me off, like Steve being a love interest again, Etta suddenly becoming African-American out of the blue and Diana trying to sort through lies versus reality versus multiple Earths or whatever that's about...

It's a shame the Perez continuity is no longer in play as I found it to be pretty much straight forward and classic.

DC would have saved themselves so much trouble if they just told people that the Azzarello continuity of Wonder Woman was its own thing. It clearly wasn't going to be as popular once the writer and artist left the title.

How has Rebirth affected things like Cassie as a member of the Teen Titans? Or Jason? Or Donna? I don't follow the title but I know fans were pretty upset by how much got rejiggered when the New 52 debuted.

Edited September 19, 2016 by DisneyBoy

[Kromm]

3 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Starri, I'm glad you are enjoying the new Wonder Woman books. I'm a fan as well, but have just been too burned out by all of the tweaks the last few years to get invested in the book again. I picked up a couple of random issues of Sensation Comics featuring Wonder Woman when the story or art appealed to me. I'm thrilled that Greg Rucka is back, but I think I'll wait to see what comes once he's established a rhythm and the dust from this latest  relaunch has settled. I find it really interesting that he's finally developing the mythology behind the plant god that controls the Cheetah's life, but then there's other things that kind of turn me off, like Steve being a love interest again, Etta suddenly becoming African-American out of the blue and Diana trying to sort through lies versus reality versus multiple Earths or whatever that's about...

The story hasn't really been focusing on that, other than the setup stage. The origin issues are pretty much just straight up rolling out a new origin (that's fairly familiar but has a few new wrinkles), and the issues in the "present", while they're bound to return to that multiple realities thing, seem to have put it aside for the time being. 

New 52 is what made that leap to Etta being African-American, so I guess we could argue Rucka inherited that. But he and his artist have un-skinnied her at least (because the new 52 version was coming off as a totally lame duplicate of what they did with Amanda Waller). She's sort of in the middle now--what many might label plus-sized but most people call "normal", rather than actually being fat.

The Cheetah stuff clearly has some link back to the origin, because Barbara Ann pops up there too. I'm supposing they're going to tuck that all back in when we see how she became Cheetah.

[Kromm]

4 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

How has Rebirth affected things like Cassie as a member of the Teen Titans? Or Jason? Or Donna? I don't follow the title but I know fans were pretty upset by how much got rejiggered when the New 52 debuted.

We've seen Donna in Titans now, and there's definitely now a re-established older and younger set of Titans. 

Cassie, like Kon-El, I think is still gone (at least for now). At least I don't recall seeing her in any of the titles I've read yet.

[DisneyBoy]

Quote

New 52 is what made that leap to Etta being African-American, so I guess we could argue Rucka inherited that. But he and his artist have un-skinnied her at least (because the new 52 version was coming off as a totally lame duplicate of what they did with Amanda Waller). She's sort of in the middle now--what many might label plus-sized but most people call "normal", rather than actually being fat.

Whoops - I never knew the New 52 made Etta black and thin! I'm really behind the times. Glad she's back to her usual shape again. I hated how she was in the WW animated film - thin and catty - so at least they've restored the status quo there. And to be clear, I don't have a problem with people of color, I just find it jarring when people's ethnicities are switched up. I'm much more in favor of writers introducing new characters of significance who happen to also come from more diverse backgrounds (like Waller or Angela Chen in S:TAS or Montoya) though I realize the fact that comics were essentially all-white for decades gives the white characters a distinct advantage in terms of their prominence in stories...

Where do you guys fall on the subject of Steve Trevor? I flipped through one of the recent issues on the newsstands and I can see why his new depiction would be appealing...not only are the movies going to give us a youthful love interest Steve Trevor but the comics are also exploring that angle and not shying away from the beefcake aspect, which is sure to grab people's attention. I just find it really sad that when Perez made him into more of an older brother, DC never made a point of giving Wonder Woman other significant love interests or a sex life at all. It turned it into an all-or-nothing situation and I don't know that that benefits the character, to have Steve Trevor as her only fated option.

What's the deal with Nightwing now - did they retcon out him being a secret agent?

[starri]

Well, Rucka has released the kraken now.

[Kromm]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:53 PM, starri said:

Well, Rucka has released the kraken now.

I guess he was interviewed now, but this "reveal" actually was like... 5 months ago! Did it really take people that long to notice?

Edited October 2, 2016 by Kromm

[starri]

I think there are people who will deny stuff until it's laid out directly in front of them.

Which shouldn't really be a surprise.  In the most recent volume of Sensation Comics, she officiated a wedding between two women she'd befriended, and when Superman asked about her being pro-gay marriage, she simply pointed out that where she was from, it was just marriage.

I can only imagine the hue and cry that's come up from some corners of the internet.  I think it's great, personally.

[DisneyBoy]

Rucka lays it out perfectly. Great replies from a great writer.

I love that DC isn't fighting this or patting themselves on the back either. And I hope no one freaks out about it, even in the corners of the internet. It doesn't change much or hurt anything about the character.

[Lantern7]

I got the first Starfire book from the library. While I think the stories could have been better and Kori's thought bubbles were too Impulse for me, I reckon the series struck the right balance between the old-school version and the animated airhead. I'm hoping she'll be fine on the new Teen Titans book . . . though I don't "get" how Damien Wayne would be involved, since he's probably a tween.

[starri]

The JLA returns.  Now featuring an Asian man, an African American woman, a gay guy, and Killer Frost.

I don't know if I want to dive into a twice-monthly book again, but I really loved Orlando's Midnighter.

[Lantern7]

I'm guessing the Ray that had a miniseries years ago is in the cornfield. Don't know what to make of the dorkier Ryan Choi. I liked the original version, created by Grant Morrison and developed by Gail Simone.

[starri]

Didn't they save the original Choi-Atom during the New 52?  Now they're rebooting him again?

[Kromm]

2 hours ago, starri said:

Didn't they save the original Choi-Atom during the New 52?  Now they're rebooting him again?

Yeah, but they've rebooted everyone. Wonder Woman's origin completely retold, even if she's not shown as a new hero, Superman in this weird status where he's basically Power Girl (from another reality from everyone else). Batman himself left largely untouched, but ALL of the characters in his extended cast basically reboots.  Flash (or rather Flashes) a mixed bag where Barry is mostly the same, but Wally is supposedly back but with most of his history forgotten by everyone. Blue Beetle, who should win some kind of award for number of reboots in the past few decades, once AGAIN totally restarted. Green Arrow sort of holding onto a lot of the 52 stuff, but with a lot more of the TV show stuff infused into it. 

Green Lantern. That's the one that (not that differently from when 52 came out) is mostly the same. Seemingly nothing has changed in the past of anyone who's been a Green Lantern. Nothing's been forgotten as secret history or mind or reality wipes. Nobody's a self-declared universe changer. 

7 hours ago, starri said:

The JLA returns.  Now featuring an Asian man, an African American woman, a gay guy, and Killer Frost.

Are they going to maybe try for a main JLA team with none of the big 7?  

They haven't released all the names yet though, and what remains could be some of those folks.

[starri]

I don't know, I'm following Wonder Woman, Titans, and Detective, and even if Diana's origin is getting played with, the fact that she has an inconsistent backstory is part of the bigger narrative.  Neither of the other books really follows any characters from anything I was looking at prior to the change, but Batwoman at least seems unaffected, from what I remember when I dropped her solo series.

I don't know, they swore left right and center this wasn't actually a reboot.  I don't know any more.

[Kromm]

45 minutes ago, starri said:

I don't know, I'm following Wonder Woman, Titans, and Detective, and even if Diana's origin is getting played with, the fact that she has an inconsistent backstory is part of the bigger narrative.  Neither of the other books really follows any characters from anything I was looking at prior to the change, but Batwoman at least seems unaffected, from what I remember when I dropped her solo series.

I don't know, they swore left right and center this wasn't actually a reboot.  I don't know any more.

It's inconsistent. Many of the titles restarts/new premises can be explained in ways that create a loophole where you can claim it's the same continuity--sometimes to 52 and sometimes to pre-52. That fact alone makes it squirrelley.

Superman IS the pre-52 one (specifically cited as older than the other one), with the explanation that he and Lois changed universes and hid for 5 years. Thus allowing that he has all of pre-52s stories, but that other younger guy did the post-52 ones.  And he and Lois got a kid, which allowed a new Superboy. There WAS another Lois floating around, but they just...

Spoiler

dispensed with her, killing her, in another book (Superwoman). Leaving the new-52 version of Lana Lang as some version of Superwoman instead.

We're also clearly working with a post-52 Lex Luthor, because he's still not a known criminal to the DCU general public. 

Wonder Woman is supposed to still be the post-52 one, but with some weird logic that she's also different at the same time because stuff has been hidden from her. The writing has been good on it, but at the same time it's a bit of a copout, because it's mostly been a way to give her back the pre-52 personality (more committed to love and peace than war).  Does that count as a reboot (especially when the personality reversion is combined with her "origin" being totally re-explained)? Who the hell knows?

Batman and his surrounding cast is so damn confusing. The relative placement of the characters is post-52, but with so many details re-tweaked from Rebirth (like if Tim was ever actually a Robin, how insane, or not, Jason Todd was left by everything that happened to him, how experienced/how long Dick has been outside of Bruce's orbit, etc.), it's hard to really say what to call it all. Just take one piece as an example. If Jason Todd is now 50% less of a psycho and regrew some sense of morality, is that a reboot? The biggest problem is still Bruce's age and how long he's supposed to have had to work with all of these partners, and while the Rebirth specials initially alluded to that, nothing's come back to that issue since.

Blue Beetle once again really confused me. If they can't admit this title has been rebooted over and over and over (often telling the exact same story over and over again), I don't know what is. Jamie is still the one in the suit, but suddenly Ted Kord is back and is his partner. But apparently they primed the pump a year or two ago by saying even if the 52-verse that Kord was actually alive again (in some story with Lex Luthor), so I suppose they are ducking the "reboot" tag by saying that however Kord came back, it happened BEFORE this Rebirth event. 

The Flashes are even more confusing. Barry seems largely the same from what I saw (to the post-52 version at least), but Wally is in this weird no-man's land where they claim everyone forgot him, except people finally started to remember him when he touched them, except Linda Park, who still doesn't remember him at all (and who seems to have regressed to a much earlier stage of her career--at least in comparison to pre-52 Linda that is). They had Abra-Cadabra show up in a Titans issue and claim he cast a spell to make everyone forget Wally, but that doesn't even make sense if you try and reconcile it with the multiple universe thing (and they seem to admit so in the story, where it's implied Abra is wrong about what happened). And I can't even come close to saying I understand what's happening with the rest of the older Titans in terms of if they were ever a Team before. Someone smarter than me needs to sort that out, because I can't.

Despite all of this, I actually have to say that the individual issue writing has been across the board better since the Rebirth event. It may be as confusing as hell when it comes to re-establishing what's history and what's not, but the plots and character interactions are far better than pre-Rebirth.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Kromm

[starri]

5 hours ago, Kromm said:

Despite all of this, I actually have to say that the individual issue writing has been across the board better since the Rebirth event. It may be as confusing as hell when it comes to re-establishing what's history and what's not, but the plots and character interactions are far better than pre-Rebirth.

I like the majority of the characters a lot more than I have in their New 52 presentation.  Wonder Woman has honestly been better than it's been in years (come at me, Azarello fans).  I don't have any real emotional attachment to any of the Titans besides Donna, but the first issue where they all slowly had their memories of Wally restored really hit me in the feels.  And frankly, I've loved getting to see Batman and Batwoman work together, especially since they decided to feature Cassie and Stephanie so prominently.  And even though I don't want a Birds of Prey which is just another vehicle for Batgirl, the return of the Helena Bertinelli Huntress is a big plus.

Is Superman the pre-Flashpoint Superman?  I was never sure if the ones that showed up in Convergence were the actual characters.

Once again, DC's attempt to fix its continuity just makes everything worse.

[wknt3]

15 hours ago, Kromm said:

It's inconsistent. Many of the titles restarts/new premises can be explained in ways that create a loophole where you can claim it's the same continuity--sometimes to 52 and sometimes to pre-52. That fact alone makes it squirrelley.

I don;t have a problem with them picking whatever version of the story works best for a character and going forward with it. I do hope that they have learned their lesson from the past and have established some sort of clear priority list so that if the reboot Wonder Woman conflicts with something in the past stories they are drawing from to create the canon for the rebooted Titans they go with Wonder Woman, handwave it away and either ignore or leave it vague when it comes up in the Titans and don't try to do endless continuity patches and rejiggering. I would also hope they realize that the best version of their characters isn't what appeals to 50 year old comics professionals, but that's a bit too much to ask.

[starri]

So, they're reviving WildStorm.  But no indication of what's going to happen to Apollo and Midnighter, who just got their miniseries started.

Now if they'd only rename Young Animal to Vertigo, we'd actually be in halfway decent shape.

ETA:  Oh hell yes.

Edited October 7, 2016 by starri

[DisneyBoy]

Holy crap Kromm...that was a thorough, intelligently written summary and yet I still couldn't follow it. What the What has DC done to their continuity?! It's in ribbons now.

I remember when I first heard about the New 52 and how everyone's origins had changed...but some facts from the old continuity still applied, like what happened to Jason Todd, and Barbara being Oracle and The Killing Joke, etcetera etcetera. How is anybody supposed to make sense of that?

For their attempts to correct course on this, it still sounds like a complete clusterpluck to me.

[millennium]

On 10/3/2016 at 10:50 PM, Kromm said:

It's inconsistent. Many of the titles restarts/new premises can be explained in ways that create a loophole where you can claim it's the same continuity--sometimes to 52 and sometimes to pre-52. That fact alone makes it squirrelley.

Superman IS the pre-52 one (specifically cited as older than the other one), with the explanation that he and Lois changed universes and hid for 5 years. Thus allowing that he has all of pre-52s stories, but that other younger guy did the post-52 ones.  And he and Lois got a kid, which allowed a new Superboy. There WAS another Lois floating around, but they just...

  Reveal hidden contents

dispensed with her, killing her, in another book (Superwoman). Leaving the new-52 version of Lana Lang as some version of Superwoman instead.

We're also clearly working with a post-52 Lex Luthor, because he's still not a known criminal to the DCU general public. 

Wonder Woman is supposed to still be the post-52 one, but with some weird logic that she's also different at the same time because stuff has been hidden from her. The writing has been good on it, but at the same time it's a bit of a copout, because it's mostly been a way to give her back the pre-52 personality (more committed to love and peace than war).  Does that count as a reboot (especially when the personality reversion is combined with her "origin" being totally re-explained)? Who the hell knows?

Batman and his surrounding cast is so damn confusing. The relative placement of the characters is post-52, but with so many details re-tweaked from Rebirth (like if Tim was ever actually a Robin, how insane, or not, Jason Todd was left by everything that happened to him, how experienced/how long Dick has been outside of Bruce's orbit, etc.), it's hard to really say what to call it all. Just take one piece as an example. If Jason Todd is now 50% less of a psycho and regrew some sense of morality, is that a reboot? The biggest problem is still Bruce's age and how long he's supposed to have had to work with all of these partners, and while the Rebirth specials initially alluded to that, nothing's come back to that issue since.

Blue Beetle once again really confused me. If they can't admit this title has been rebooted over and over and over (often telling the exact same story over and over again), I don't know what is. Jamie is still the one in the suit, but suddenly Ted Kord is back and is his partner. But apparently they primed the pump a year or two ago by saying even if the 52-verse that Kord was actually alive again (in some story with Lex Luthor), so I suppose they are ducking the "reboot" tag by saying that however Kord came back, it happened BEFORE this Rebirth event. 

The Flashes are even more confusing. Barry seems largely the same from what I saw (to the post-52 version at least), but Wally is in this weird no-man's land where they claim everyone forgot him, except people finally started to remember him when he touched them, except Linda Park, who still doesn't remember him at all (and who seems to have regressed to a much earlier stage of her career--at least in comparison to pre-52 Linda that is). They had Abra-Cadabra show up in a Titans issue and claim he cast a spell to make everyone forget Wally, but that doesn't even make sense if you try and reconcile it with the multiple universe thing (and they seem to admit so in the story, where it's implied Abra is wrong about what happened). And I can't even come close to saying I understand what's happening with the rest of the older Titans in terms of if they were ever a Team before. Someone smarter than me needs to sort that out, because I can't.

Despite all of this, I actually have to say that the individual issue writing has been across the board better since the Rebirth event. It may be as confusing as hell when it comes to re-establishing what's history and what's not, but the plots and character interactions are far better than pre-Rebirth.

 

How the bloody blue blazes do you keep track of it all?   I keep fantasizing about getting back into the Batman/Superman/Flash/Wonder Woman continuity but it's so intimidating.  I wouldn't know where to pick up.  Pre-Crisis, post-Crisis?  The new 52?  Rebirth?   One thing I always hated as a kid was reading stories in comics and feeling out of the loop because stuff happened either before I came along or in some book I didn't follow.   From what I've been reading about DC comics the last few years, every issue of every title is bound to leave me confused no matter where I jump in.   DC has messed with the timeline more than Barry Allen, with even worse result.

[starri]

I've been in bed with a 103 degree fever for the last two days.

I decided to read DC/IDW/Archie's Love is Love Orlando charity comic.

Boy was that a mistake.

[Lantern7]

Bad? Depressing? I'll probably get that because Gail Simone has a story in there, and it's for a good cause.

ETA: I'm getting the Atom one-shot next week. I'm a little miffed Ray Terrill is coming back, because I thought Lucien Gates was a good Ray in his miniseries. Come to think of it, has any character with a one-shot or miniseries revamp made it big in DC's Rebirth? Ray, Looker, Rose & Thorn, Kid Eternity . . . not pretty.

[starri]

No, it was very good. I just had so many sads I had to stop about halfway through. 

A two-page story from Dan DiDio of all people where a bunch of queer characters broke the fourth wall and talked about how hard it was to be a queer character. Maggie Sawyer couldn't say it, Apollo and Midnighter couldn't show it, and an obscure character named Extrano who was every single gay stereotype and couldn't even say the word before being killed by an AIDS vampire named Hemo-Goblin (seriously)...that was the one that pushed me over the edge. 

[Lantern7]

Extrano is currently in Apollo & Midnighter. I peeked at an issue, and I got ticked off. Not at that, but how the author was using the Mawzir and the Ace of Winchesters, both of which come from the "Ace Of Killers" arc in Hitman. Good times.

[starri]

They have thankfully toned him down in the current Apollo & Midnighter book.  I wasn't even entirely sure that was him at first.

But it was more...here's the big cheese at DC who's had trouble with representation in the past, writing a story whose moral was "We've screwed this up before, but we're trying to do better now" and the meta-comment there just really moved me.

There was also a heart-breakingly adorable one-pager from Paul Dini about the things that Harley and Ivy do out of love, like Ivy suffering through weekly Three Stooges marathons or Harley agreeing to be a vegan. 

[Lantern7]

We got this to look forward to, which is nice. Forget about supernatural reprisal from Alan Moore . . . why does DC have to stripmine a property that was clearly meant to stand on its own? I think this is worse than the meddling with Kingdom Come. That produced a nice follow-up and an Alex Ross-approved storyline in Justice Society of America, but then you have the Convergence books, which . ..  no. Missing the point.

[starri]

Eh, I can't get worked up about it.  I am charitably not a fan of what they've done vis a vis Rebirth with Watchmen (Rebirth itself, yes), but using the IP isn't a terrible idea.  Before Watchmen as a whole was kind of underwhelming, but Before Watchmen: Minutemen by the late Darwyn Cooke was fantastic and almost made the exercise worth it.

Plus, it's fun thinking of Moore's head exploding.  He created a lot of stories I really loved 30 years ago, and then decided to make porn.  Kind of lost a lot of respect for him about that, and the rank hypocrisy of his complaining about other creators using his characters when all of his work for the last fifteen years has pretty much been exactly that.

[Lantern7]

Read Ryan Choi Rebirth or whatever they're calling it. Still not thinking of getting the new JLA book (Batman! Gay Ray! Slightly less-villainous Killer Frost!!), though I'm okay with Ryan being younger, more neurotic, and Ray Palmer's tech support. I still recommend Gail Simone's take on the character. Weird things in Ivy Town, Giganta as a love interest, Jetpack Hitler . . . good times.

[wknt3]

On 1/2/2017 at 0:16 PM, starri said:

Eh, I can't get worked up about it.  I am charitably not a fan of what they've done vis a vis Rebirth with Watchmen (Rebirth itself, yes), but using the IP isn't a terrible idea.  Before Watchmen as a whole was kind of underwhelming, but Before Watchmen: Minutemen by the late Darwyn Cooke was fantastic and almost made the exercise worth it.

Plus, it's fun thinking of Moore's head exploding.  He created a lot of stories I really loved 30 years ago, and then decided to make porn.  Kind of lost a lot of respect for him about that, and the rank hypocrisy of his complaining about other creators using his characters when all of his work for the last fifteen years has pretty much been exactly that.

Yeah there's a lot of crap DC has done over the years, but I can't worked up over Moore and Watchmen either. As far as Watchmen is concerned they made a deal not realizing exactly how revolutionary the project would be. Given the sales over the years no publisher would take it out of print and the idea that they were keeping it print just to maintain control over the IP is nonsense. I think DC has done some evil stuff over the years, but I don't see what exactly they were supposed to do here since there doesn't seem room for a compromise solution as has been worked out with other valuable creators. And in general as you've said his griping about others using his stories is pretty hypocritical. You don't like others using your characters in ways you don't like? You think it's lame that people are using little details from the stories you told decades ago and turning them into whole sagas instead of creating new characters? I don't hear you apologizing to Kirby or Ditko... 

[starri]

2 hours ago, wknt3 said:

I don't hear you apologizing to Kirby or Ditko... 

Or Baum, Conan Doyle, Barrie, Haggard, Stoker, Wells, Verne...

I understand him being honked off at V for Vendetta.  That existed prior to DC publishing it.

However it was kind of hysterical when, demanding his name be removed for the V for Vendetta film (which frankly, I'd have been proud of have my name on), as he demanded that he receive the same treatment as Joe Schuster and Jerry Siegel...except that they were credited as the creators of Superman.

ETA:  or his insistence that he had the right to make a porno comic about Peter Pan because the actual copyright holder (A) A freaking children's hospital, B) a hospital who was GIVEN the rights by JM Barrie) only held the rights to the plays, not the characters.  Way to champion creators, dude.

Quote

here doesn't seem room for a compromise solution as has been worked out with other valuable creators.

They even offered one, saying that if he'd do something with their prequel plans, they'd return the rights.  And he refused, saying that no one ever asked Melville for a sequel to Moby Dick.

I read a comic once where Ishmael was serving as first mate to Captain Nemo.  I'm blanking on the author's name.

Edited January 7, 2017 by starri

[starri]

The Ray: Rebirth dropped last week.  Since Apollo and Midnighter are likely to mosey on back over to WildStorm now that it's been revived, Batwoman and Ray are basically the DCU's big LGBT characters, and I figured it was worth a look.

The story itself is kind of meh, although Ray is likable and they introduce a childhood friend who I believe is likely going to be a love interest.

But what really pleased me is that he's based in Vanity.  Vanity was created by Grant Morrison (this is before he went insane) in the pages of the obscure Aztek: The Ultimate Man, which was full of heroes that were a big goof on every single 90s EXTREME stereotype.  It and James Robinson's Opal City were the two things from the 90s that I hated were allowed to languish.  And now both are back.

[starri]

Teen Titans - The Lazarus Contract.

This is a good idea, said no one outside of DC editorial.

I wish they'd hurry up and start JLA already.  We instead got a plot-free story where Batman brings the team together.  And also, Lobo, because if there's one thing I like more than Wolverine, it's a parody of Wolverine.

Also, considering they're doing the exact same story with Clayface over in Detective, I don't know where they're going with the "bad guy tries for redemption" they're doing with Killer Frost.  Although, I will say she's kind of awesome.

[Lantern7]

Is it just four parts? It's not that I don't like Deathstroke, but I feel that Priest might not be writing specifically for me. Waaaaaaay too much politics. I was okay with it on his run on Black Panther, though having a putz around like Everett K. Ross probably helped.

Got JLA: Rebirth at a small discount. Still on the fence about reading it just because I was a fan of Ryan Choi. Seriously . . . Lobo? Lobo?!? Like Batman lost a dare or something. The only times Lobo worked on a team with on LEGION and Young Justice . . . and Peter David made him a kid for spits and giggles.

ETA: I wasn't thinking specifically about the guns issue issue. Just the general tone. I think Black Panther was better because T'Challa was played as a Batman-level overachiever without being a Gary Stu. And the supporting cast helped, especially Ross. Nice that Rose has two eyes intact, but I'm not as attahed.

[starri]

Leaving it at four parts I can get behind. Having it consume even one issue of the one of those titles I'm actually consuming bugs me. Because I don't care enough to read the other issues. 

The Batman mini event "Night of the Monster Men" had the same effect on me, because it just...started...in Detective without any warning or any connection to the story they'd been setting up. I had to check and make sure I hadn't missed an issue. 

[Danny Franks]

On 14/02/2017 at 0:43 AM, starri said:

Teen Titans - The Lazarus Contract.

This is a good idea, said no one outside of DC editorial.

That's funny, in a depressing way. I just decided to check DC comics out again after a long while, and thought I'd look at Dick Grayson first,  as he's always been my favourite.

What do I find? DC just rehashing old ideas and stories, that they've already beaten to death in the past. In Nightwing,  he's back in Bludhaven again, doing the same stuff he was doing ten years ago. And in Titans it's the same story. Same four characters having the same interactions I've already seen countless times. Right down to Donna Troy and the odious Roy Harper getting together again. And now they're going to rehash their most famous storyline as well.

DC just seem to have a staggering lack of creativity and ambition. Although I guess that might be a good thing, given that their previous reboot resulted in the New 52. I can only imagine that most of their other books are warming up old ideas as well. How hard can it be to come up with something new, even if it's just a new relationship or a new character motivation?

[starri]

There is good stuff happening.  Detective is approaching Batman.--or more appropriately, the Bat Family--in a way that's fairly fresh, particularly since in a lot of ways, the main character is actually Batwoman.  Rucka's Wonder Woman is doing a great job of re-telling Diana's story in a way that honors the past while still feeling new.  And what we might call the Social Justice League of America is totally appealing...except for Lobo.

Unfortunately, while the New 52 was mostly bathwater, there was some baby in there two, and they threw a lot of it out.

[starri]

In a random corner of a random story in Superman DC broke itself again.

Don't get me wrong.  This is a very positive move for the entire DCU, I'm definitely in favor of it.  But at least from a continuity standpoint, it's just another iteration of "DC attempts to straighten its history out, makes everything worse."

On the surface, the New52 was not a terrible idea.  I mean, fans being fans would have bitched and moaned about it (and I fully include myself there), but they didn't have the courage to do a total hard reset, and instead kept the things that Geoff Johns wanted.  If this is what Rebirth is actually truly going to be, why lead us through an interregnum period, if it was all going to be superseded by something that was just going to happen without much fanfare.

You think it'll last a year this time?

[Lantern7]

Peeked into Hal Jordan & The Green Lantern Corps. Why is that huge news?

Spoiler

Kyle Rayner lost his White Lantern ring, got a green one, and he's back to the Darryl Banks-designed outfit!

I was shocked to see the last page

[starri]

Seems turning heroes into fascists is the new in thing.  Everybody's doing it.

[starri]

Oy.

Quote

“Doomsday Clock is a story for fans who love the DC Universe and Watchmen and want to see what a master of this genre creates when he puts them together

A)  What about fans who don't?

B)  If they want a master of the genre, why did they hire Geoff Johns?

[Bruinsfan]

Makers of prosthetic limbs will be thrilled...