Lorelai and Christopher

[readster]

 

Chris didn't give a shit about E/R, no matter how nice they were to him. So even there, Loreali could have married a Luke who was accepted by elder Gilmores by S6 and not lose any connection to her roots that Christopher could have provided.

You know, you raise a very good point. Even after Richard's first health issue, I didn't see Chris come a running in wondering if everyone was alright. Then after Richard's heart attack in the middle of Rory's class. Who really came running? Luke that's who. I remember when Season 3 kicked off and Christopher was trying to make it sound like that Lorelai and Rory could be around in his life constantly even with Sherry pregnant with Georgia. Emily told him off and Christopher game her a look along the lines of: "Fine, whatever." Luke did the running in to be the white knight many times, he had his issues and as many of us say to this day, Anna was a complete WTF of how he backed down and took her shit from the first moment he found out about April. Something I said all these years and both my mother and mother-in-law who watched the show said why didn't Christopher every say to E/R or his own parents. "Well, shit happened, I love them both, but we can't work out and its my own damn fault. Let's move on!" 

[Melancholy]

You know, you raise a very good point. Even after Richard's first health issue, I didn't see Chris come a running in wondering if everyone was alright. Then after Richard's heart attack in the middle of Rory's class. Who really came running? Luke that's who. I remember when Season 3 kicked off and Christopher was trying to make it sound like that Lorelai and Rory could be around in his life constantly even with Sherry pregnant with Georgia. Emily told him off and Christopher game her a look along the lines of: "Fine, whatever." Luke did the running in to be the white knight many times, he had his issues and as many of us say to this day, Anna was a complete WTF of how he backed down and took her shit from the first moment he found out about April. Something I said all these years and both my mother and mother-in-law who watched the show said why didn't Christopher every say to E/R or his own parents. "Well, shit happened, I love them both, but we can't work out and its my own damn fault. Let's move on!" 

 

Yup. Emily/Richard had a ton of affection for Christopher. They took an interest in his job and business dealings, Richard was applauding him sticking by Sherri to be a father to their baby, they were filled with empathy and concern for what he must be going through after Straub died given their problematic relationship. Even after Richard/Emily accepted that Lorelai was going to marry Luke, they had to have a whole sit-down to make sure there were no hard feelings about Chris paying for Rory's college and Emily tried setting Christopher up with that shrink. Of course, it was motored by how they wanted him to be their son-in-law and that type of craving for Chris to be in their family hardened into habit so they still loved him even they were pretty much resigned that Lorelai wouldn't end up with Christopher as they were at the end of S6 or during Chris's marriage to Sherri. 

 

However, it was one-sided. Chris never seemed to have any love or affection for Richard/Emily. Now, I want to be clear that I don't think Chris has a moral obligation or anything to love the Hartford Gilmores. Until S7, they never became family. While Chris did always pine for Lorelai, it was a romantic, sexual sort of pining. Not a pining to complete a perfect family unit, with Richard and Emily as parents for him. I think he was an asshole about Richard's heart-attack but that's mainly because he welshed on such a clear son-in-law obligation. However at the same time, I don't exactly think that Christopher really has a plus in his column for SAME ROOTS as Lorelai when he's so stand-offish about embracing those roots with Emily/Richard despite all of their fawning opportunities to be closer. 

[readster]

 

 

Of course, it was motored by how they wanted him to be their son-in-law and that type of craving for Chris to be in their family hardened into habit so they still loved him even they were pretty much resigned that Lorelai wouldn't end up with Christopher as they were at the end of S6 or during Chris's marriage to Sherri.

However, it was one-sided. Chris never seemed to have any love or affection for Richard/Emily. Now, I want to be clear that I don't think Chris has a moral obligation or anything to love the Hartford Gilmores. Until S7, they never became family. While Chris did always pine for Lorelai, it was a romantic, sexual sort of pining. Not a pining to complete a perfect family unit, with Richard and Emily as parents for him. I think he was an asshole about Richard's heart-attack but that's mainly because he welshed on such a clear son-in-law obligation. However at the same time, I don't exactly think that Christopher really has a plus in his column for SAME ROOTS as Lorelai when he's so stand-offish about embracing those roots with Emily/Richard despite all of their fawning opportunities to be closer.

Completely agree on all of that. E/R gave a lot more to Chris than his own parents did and never once did I see Chris go: "I wish you would have been my parents instead of Straube or Francine." No, Chris was constantly told by his father and even his mother that Lorelai and the Gilmores were his downfall from grace. Instead of them trying to be supportive or telling Chris to try to take a step back and get his life together. They took almost every chance to harp on the crap Chris was given and that it was never his fault, but they never gave him any sound advice or said: "It's your own damn fault, so either accept them and move on or not." However, while both Emily and Richard admitted that they wanted to kill Christopher several times from getting Lorelai pregnant to even him being absent from Rory's and Lorelai's life. They gave him so many oppurtunities or cheered him on and no once did Chis say: "Thank you for always believing in me." Instead it was: "Well that's great, but who cares what you think?" Yet he couldn't say something like that to his own parents. He told Lorelai and Rory and even Sherry many times he would have still dropped out of college or had his string of low paying jobs until he met with his friends and started their business together. I also loved how his grandfather gave his entire fortune to Chris becauase:

A) His dad had died and the grandfather apparently didn't like Francine.

B) Never did once tried to get to know his two great granddaughters, but hey, he loved Christopher his only grandchild. So, um... OK. 

C) Really, it was never Chris's fault, it was everyone else's and the only person who ever had the balls to let him see how much of a jerk he was, was Luke. Who both told him off and finally gave him a punch in the face that critics and fans said that was over due by over 20 years. 

[Guest]

Love them together or hate them together, everyone has opinions on them.  Put them here. ;)  

[moonb]

Yup. Emily/Richard had a ton of affection for Christopher. They took an interest in his job and business dealings, Richard was applauding him sticking by Sherri to be a father to their baby, they were filled with empathy and concern for what he must be going through after Straub died given their problematic relationship. Even after Richard/Emily accepted that Lorelai was going to marry Luke, they had to have a whole sit-down to make sure there were no hard feelings about Chris paying for Rory's college and Emily tried setting Christopher up with that shrink.

 

Was it real affection, though? The comments above note that Emily and Richard liked Christopher for what he represented - Rory's dad, the "missing piece" from their symbolic perfect family, the one who would finally erase the whiff of shame around Lorelai's early pregnancy. There are lots of hints that they didn't care so much for him personally - Richard's line in season 1 about wanting to kill him for getting Lorelai pregnant,  Emily in season 5 infamously calling him weak and spineless, to encourage him to go after Lorelai because she could at least be "successful" with Chris.  He was pliable, much more so than their daughter, and that's what they appreciated.

 

I always thought E and R's apparent fondness for Christopher was usually holding him up to Lorelai as a sort of swipe: "at least HE was willing to marry you and go along with our plan, so we'll treat him better than you." 

Which isn't to say that Chris treated Lorelai and Rory, or even Emily and Richard, any differently. Actually imo, Christopher's most interesting scenes int he show were later seasons in which he was trying to be a dad to Rory and Gigi without Lorelai's involvement. 

[readster]

 

Emily in season 5 infamously calling him weak and spineless, to encourage him to go after Lorelai because she could at least be "successful" with Chris.  He was pliable, much more so than their daughter, and that's what they appreciated.

That lined always pissed me off and why I ended up really putting the hate on with Chris. He let Emily call him that, not to mention basically dismiss Georgia in the process. Plus, her line about how Lorelai would be "successful" with Chris. I wanted to go: "Excuse me?" "Do you even see what you daughter is doing?" I keep seeing that Emily in some half-assed view wanted Lorelai to be like her. Running DAR parties and fundraisers. Worrying about keeping everything check. Firing maids because they had a hair out of place, ect. I really mark that scene as when Gilmore Girls started going downhill because Emily became like Trix and never realized it. Plus, the entire plan that Chris wanted to follow that plan. Well, nothing stopped him for trying a few years later after Rory and Lorelai were out on their own. He could have tried then too, but he didn't. There comes a point, that life happens when you are busy making plans and you can't dwell on something two 17 year old kids did not thinking compared to 20 years later. One thing that AS-P seem to have with all her characters, they never let anything go and moved on. Except for many Jess.

[dustylil]

her line about how Lorelai would be "successful" with Chris. I wanted to go: "Excuse me?" "Do you even see what you daughter is doing?"

 

Actually, Emily had been pretty much been saying that since the first episode of the series. Lorelai would be successful and achieve greatness if only she had been willing to accept help from  family and/or marry Christopher. Of course, other than some money and pretty boy looks, I couldn't see what  Christopher would bring to the achievement any of Lorelai's ambitions - real or as imagined by her mother. Business acumen? Solid emotional support?

I really mark that scene as when Gilmore Girls started going downhill because Emily became like Trix and never realized it

 

I was no great fan of Trix. However, she was considerably more accomplished than Emily. She managed her own business affairs, raised and/or donated considerable sums to charity (including donating a wing of a hospital) and was a political mover and shaker in both Connecticut and on the national stage. As well, unlike her daughter-in-law Trix didn't meddle in her offspring's personal life. After expressing her disapproval of his choice of marital partner, she made no further attempt to interfere. Indeed, after nearly forty years of marriage, Emily was dumbfounded to learn of the dislike her mother-in-law had for her.

 

I will however readily concede that Emily had a far better dress sense than Trix.

[txhorns79]

After expressing her disapproval of his choice of marital partner, she made no further attempt to interfere. Indeed, after nearly forty years of marriage, Emily was dumbfounded to learn of the dislike her mother-in-law had for her.

 

I don't think Emily was "dumbfounded," so much as just angry.  I think Emily knew Trix didn't like her prior to finding the note, given Trix was pretty much openly hostile towards Emily during the times we saw them together.  I think on that particular occasion, it was the combination of the sheer nastiness of the act of keeping a copy of the note for posterity, as well as the fact that Emily realized she was now going to a lot of trouble to plan this woman's funeral and sort out her affairs when Trix wasn't worth that kind of grief, that drove Emily over the edge. 

 

 

However, she was considerably more accomplished than Emily. She managed her own business affairs, raised and/or donated considerable sums to charity (including donating a wing of a hospital)

 

Didn't we hear about Emily participating in fundraising for charity, along with seeing her attending charity events during the show?  Maybe it wasn't on Trix's scale, but I just presumed Trix was much wealthier than Emily and Richard.  Also, is the simple act of writing a larger check for charity than someone else something that really makes you more "accomplished" than the other person?  By that logic, just on a scale of charitable giving, none of us will ever be as "accomplished" as Bill Gates because he's donated more money to charity than many of us will ever see in our lifetimes.  I think charitable giving is a great that people should try to do, but I can't imagine trying to present myself as more "accomplished" than another person based on the idea that I have donated more money to charity than they have.           

 

 

One thing that AS-P seem to have with all her characters, they never let anything go and moved on

 

I thought it was because she really had no idea how to move the characters past their initial conflict.  I mean, Emily and Richard are still talking about Christopher and Lorelai getting married long after it made any real sense to continue that particular discussion. 

Edited February 19, 2016 by txhorns79

[readster]

 

I thought it was because she really had no idea how to move the characters past their initial conflict.  I mean, Emily and Richard are still talking about Christopher and Lorelai getting married long after it made any real sense to continue that particular discussion.

How true and also AS-P said in an interview that the best characters never learn and that she knew of children who had parents that weren't married because they had them in their late teens or early 20s and then finally got together or married ten or fifteen years later. Which, I could believe, my brother and one of my sisters had a friend who's parents had them mid way through college by accident and then got married when their kids were almost finished with high school. However, they said their grandparents dropped them getting married after about three years. Saying: "Well, some people can have babies, but that doesn't mean they wind up together." Yet, for most of the Gilmore Girls run it was: "Chris and Lorelai should be married even after their daughter was in their 20s and both of them had either serious relationships or had other children by then." Because: "They will be successful as a family that way." Oh shut up!

Edited February 19, 2016 by readster

[takalotti]

I think it would have made more sense, and been a little funnier, if the following had happened:

E/R give up on the L/C dream once Rory turns 18 (or goes off to college).

Lorelai keeps the same basic relationship trajectory with Luke and Chris.

Once Lorelai and Chris start dating and get married, E/R react with "Are you kidding me? Now? NOW? Not back when you had a child to raise together and society actually cared, but now? Do you TRY to make every life move in opposition to our vote, or does it just coincidentally happen that way?"

Edited February 19, 2016 by takalotti

[readster]

I think it would have made more sense, and been a little funnier, if the following had happened:

E/R give up on the L/C dream once Rory turns 18 (or goes off to college).

Lorelai keeps the same basic relationship trajectory with Luke and Chris.

Once Lorelai and Chris start dating and get married, E/R react with "Are you kidding me? Now? NOW? Not back when you had a child to raise together and society actually cared, but now? Do you TRY to make every life move in opposition to our vote, or does it just coincidentally happen that way?"

I completely agree or if E/R would have done that once Christopher went to be with Sherry. Because in one small sense, Richard seem to give up then too. With him telling Emily that Chris was finally doing "the nobel" thing and then walk away. I think that was when Richard finally let the old plan die, only for it to return years later. When Emily told Chris to leave in the season 3 premiere. I was all on her side because I think Emily was putting it to bed too. Then of course Wedding Bell Blue happened and destroyed all of them with some very half ass philosophies that still don't make sense to this day.

[dustylil]

With him telling Emily that Chris was finally doing "the nobel" thing and then walk away

 

Did that mean Christopher was going to get a prize? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

because I think Emily was putting it to bed too. Then of course Wedding Bell Blue happened and destroyed all of them with some very half ass philosophies that still don't make sense to this day

 

Christopher's marriage was over by then. So the senior Gilmores simply went back to their original plan. I don't think they ever really gave their desire to have Lorelai and Christopher married, they just put it on ice. Heaven knows why they wanted the pair wed at that point in time. Perhaps to give Straub and Francine a metaphoric kick in the teeth.

[readster]

Did that mean Christopher was going to get a prize? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Christopher's marriage was over by then. So the senior Gilmores simply went back to their original plan. I don't think they ever really gave their desire to have Lorelai and Christopher married, they just put it on ice. Heaven knows why they wanted the pair wed at that point in time. Perhaps to give Straub and Francine a metaphoric kick in the teeth.

 

  Of course Straub would be dead a few months later, but for Francine, I wouldn't had a problem with her. When she was on screen, she either tittered to Straub's ideology had very poor opinions. I know that AS-P was trying to make her Emily without the weird showing of love, but really, that woman made me hate her every time she was on the screen. Straub was no prize either and his look at life put Emily and Trix's to shame all the time. I hated Chris's parents more than him and you then wonder why he ended up the way he was. 

[txhorns79]

Straub was no prize either and his look at life put Emily and Trix's to shame all the time. I hated Chris's parents more than him and you then wonder why he ended up the way he was.

 

I blame the premise of the show.  Straub and Francine have to be awful to Lorelai, and by extension, Rory, or else it gives Lorelai another source for funds, and erases her need to go to her parents when she is in trouble. 

[readster]

I blame the premise of the show.  Straub and Francine have to be awful to Lorelai, and by extension, Rory, or else it gives Lorelai another source for funds, and erases her need to go to her parents when she is in trouble. 

 

Oh I know, but as we know that AS-P likes to exaggerate characters and Straub come across a someone most people would avoid.

[Bwill3133]

Just in the few scenes they were in Straub and Francine seemed pretty awful in general. Maybe it was the way they had to be written but they didn't seem like nice people. And I'm always going to be skeptical of the fact that Francine forged a relationship with one grandchild but completely ignored the other.

[txhorns79]

Just in the few scenes they were in Straub and Francine seemed pretty awful in general. Maybe it was the way they had to be written but they didn't seem like nice people. And I'm always going to be skeptical of the fact that Francine forged a relationship with one grandchild but completely ignored the other.

 

I'm with you.  I understood why they couldn't be kind to Lorelai or Rory, at least in terms of the story, but you'd think at some point since Chris maintains a relationship with both Rory and Lorelai, that they'd just be civil instead of openly hostile. 

[takalotti]

But Chris married Sherry, so Gigi counted as a person. </sarcasm directed at the Haydens>

[readster]

But Chris married Sherry, so Gigi counted as a person. </sarcasm directed at the Haydens>

Then Chris married Lorelai and Emily and Richard cared about the one happy little family </sarcasm directed at the Gilmores>

[Ms Blue Jay]

Didn't know where to bring this up.

 

There is a great episode of Will and Grace, Season 1, Episode 17, "Secrets and Lays" where David Sutcliffe appears as a high-school love of Grace's that she randomly runs into at a Vermont cabin (so romantic!)  I really recommend it.  Debra Messing and David are quite adorable together.  (I found the full episode on Youtube but it's NBC copyright material so the voices have been slowed way down).

Edited March 20, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Taryn74]

Bringing this post over from one of the other threads because I'm fascinated with the idea that maybe when Lorelai took off with Rory at age 17, it was actually in the middle of wedding plans.

 

I think it would have worked better if teen Lorelai initially agreed to marry Chris but hope they could find a way to do it their way and forge their own life together. A life full of hard work but love and adventures. Then it quickly becomes obvious to her that Chris would take the path of least resistance. He'd work for Richard because it was the easiest route but become more and more detached and resentful. Lorelai comes to realise that if she marries Chris she would be left living with Rory under her parents' rules, in a marriage that has become loveless. Nobody (apart from Richard and Emily) would be happy.

So she delays the wedding until after Rory's birth so she can be sure, which immediately establishes herself as the irresponsible one in the eyes of the senior Gilmores and Haydens, as she made Rory 'illegitimate.' Then once it becomes obvious that her fears were correct she takes off. Maybe even as the wedding is being planned. The ensuing shitstorm with the grandparents is why she has so little relationship with the Gilmores and none with the Haydens. As Christopher would be overcome with relief and take off travelling with glee while looking like the heartbroken abandoned father/fiance to the grandparents.

 

 

I've been tinkering around with the timeline that we're sure of and making some educated guesses on others, and here's what I've come up with as a possibility.  Even though there's nothing really given in the show to back this theory up, in my opinion it would make not only the elder Gilmores' attitudes toward Chris and Lorelai throughout the show make more sense, but the elder Haydens' as well.

 

January/February 1984 - Lorelai gets pregnant.  She is 15, Chris is 16 (his birthday being a few months before hers, but not as much as a year before).

 

April 1984 - Lorelai's birthday.  She knows at this time she is pregnant, having figured it out because her debutante dress no longer fits.  Nobody else knows yet, but she tells Chris and they tell their parents sometime shortly thereafter.  Straub wants Lorelai to have an abortion, Richard wants Lorelai and Chris to get married and Chris come to work for him.  Chris is weakly okay with this plan, Lorelai is not.

 

October 1984 - Rory is born.  Lorelai is now 16, Chris is possibly 17.  Chris says "So, I guess we should get married."  Lorelai looks distressed.  Has she not given him a firm 'no' yet?  Has she not given her parents a firm 'no' yet?  Interesting thought.

 

Some months later, 1985 or early 1986.  Lorelai runs away with Rory and lands in Stars Hollow.  Emily says during a flashback in DEaR that this is the first time "in a year" she hasn't tripped over Rory's stroller, which very loosely puts this in the fall/winter of 1985/1986.  We know that Lorelai is still 17, so it is some time before April 1986 for sure.  As far as we know, at this point Lorelai is still in E/R's good graces, and since her not marrying Chris is the sore point that the elder G's are still bringing up two decades later, it makes sense that she was still at least pretending like she was planning to marry Chris.

 

Now here's the point where it all becomes conjecture on my part --

 

Chris is probably 18 by the time Lorelai runs away.  Assuming that he kept going to school and graduated on time (and we have no reason to believe he didn't) he should have been getting ready to head to college.  Princeton, according to Straub.  I haven't looked anything up to verify, but I'm going to assume that a freshman straight out of high school has to live on campus for the first year unless they can show a need to live elsewhere.  Even if Chris had made a weak attempt to say that he and Lorelai and Rory could get an apartment nearby and he could still attend classes (more in an attempt to keep the peace with his parents than anything), I could see Straub protesting that idea and Lorelai flat out not agreeing to it, while still possibly stringing everyone along with the idea of her and Chris marrying "soon".  But then she runs away with Rory and Chris finally gets the cojones to say 'screw the whole lot of you' and heads to California or whatever it is he did instead of going to Princeton.  Emily is devastated because Lorelai and Rory are gone, and also because she finally realizes/accepts the wedding is not going to happen.  Straub is glad that the wedding is not going to happen but he is furious that Christopher is not going to Princeton and blames Lorelai.  The elder Gilmores and Haydens all stay stuck in this mindset - disappointed and furious - for the next two decades, which we see played out again and again.

[GreenScreenFX]

Now... In this timeline are we not sure L said "f.... All y'all" Toodles.

No sorry, my bad... That was ACtUALLY what happened...I like the alternate timeline... I wasn't trying to be an ass

[moonb]

It's really fascinating conjecture, and it's definitely supported by almost every Christopher appearance bringing up the question "are we ready to get married now? What about now? Whoops, it's my last chance!" And then there's Chris's line in season 7 about feeling like he's been proposing for 20 years, which fits into this idea that a wedding might have been planned. 

 

My question would be, given that a hypothetical wedding would be less than 100% joyous and a little embarrassing, especially for the Gilmore/Hayden social circle, wouldn't the 4 parents have demanded a quick courthouse thing, followed by a party or something? (All the shotgun weddings in my family tree were done pretty speedily.) Even if it were done well after Rory was born, wouldn't the wedding of teenage parents cause some kind of social fallout? I can't imagine Emily going all out with her Romanov winter wedding vision for 17-year-old Lorelai. But if there were wedding plans I have to wonder how, exactly, Lorelai delayed an actual wedding for so long to her parents. I know there's conjecture that she was testing Christopher as a father and partner and realizing he wasn't ready, but would she have offered Chris's going to Princeton as an excuse for at least 6 months after Rory's birth?

 

I could see Lorelai leaving with Rory sometime in the summer given New England weather, and the fact that we didn't know if Lorelai planned out her running away ahead of time. Mia says Rory was a "tiny baby," Emily says she hasn't tripped over Rory's stroller in a year, but I'm thinking those are both hyperbole and Rory was maybe 8 or 9 months old. She certainly wasn't walking yet; Lorelai mentions in season 2 that Rory took her first steps at the Independence Inn, possibly when it was snowing?  

Edited April 10, 2016 by moonb

[dustylil]

I too have difficulty believing there would be much planning involved in any wedding of Christopher and Lorelai. I think the scandal factor in their high society world would outweigh the need or expectation for an elaborate event. Although I think it would likely be a low key religious ceremony than a civil rite, given that clergymen appeared to have been involved in discussions at the time.

[dirtypop90]

They may not have been planning a huge event but I could see there being a plan for the wedding and their living arrangements + school/job situation after, and lorelai going along with the plan (or leading everyone to believe she was) and then bailing. They couldn't force lorelai to get married so really couldn't do anything about her delaying. It makes sense to me because I can't imagine that emily and richard weren't still pushing for a wedding while lorelai was living with them after the baby was born.

 

I actually don't believe it would've been too embarrassing for the families if Chris and lorelai had actually gotten married. young teens being pressured into marriage because they're having a baby happens a lot in these circles. After a few years pass, people forget or stop caring why they got married in the first place. It's only a long term embarrassment to the family when they don't wed.

[moonb]

Yeah, I would think that Lorelai refusing to marry would make her more infamous in Hartford society, even after 15+ years. We don't see too much of that on the show except for the other Chilton parents' behavior towards her and Shira Huntzberger's line denying that Lorelai is part of the reason Rory is unsuitable for Logan. 

Edited April 10, 2016 by moonb

[readster]

Yeah, I would think that Lorelai refusing to marry would make her more infamous in Hartford society, even after 15+ years. We don't see too much of that on the show except for the other Chilton parents' behavior towards her and Shira Huntzberger's line denying that Lorelai is part of the reason Rory is unsuitable for Logan. 

Which is of course a double standard when Emily rips into Shira's not so innocent path that she married into it, not was born into. Plus, also highlighting Mitchum and his father's past during Shira's and the grandfather's own marriages in the Huntzbergers. Remember, in the GG World, not getting married after having a baby in your teens is considered long term shaming. Cheating is like tripping during an introductions. People laugh and then move on. As many critics who were fans of the show said time and time again: "You can't have it both ways." 

[Taryn74]

I can't imagine Emily going all out with her Romanov winter wedding vision for 17-year-old Lorelai. But if there were wedding plans I have to wonder how, exactly, Lorelai delayed an actual wedding for so long to her parents. 

 

Aha!  There's my last puzzle piece.  What if Lorelai was stalling by "promising" to marry Christopher after she turned 18?  I think Emily cared more about having some sort of "plan" to share with her friends than anything.  It was the 1980s, not the 1950s.  A teenage pregnancy was not quite as big of a deal as it used to be.  I could easily see Emily brushing any questions off with a "there will be a wedding, don't worry, we're just waiting until ...whatever..."

[dustylil]

What if Lorelai was stalling by "promising" to marry Christopher after she turned 18?

 

With respect, why? What difference would it make if they married at 18, rather than 17? It wasn't as if she had anything else on her calendar at the time, like finishing high school.

[txhorns79]

I think Taryn was saying that getting married at 18 was only being offered as an excuse to satisfy all concerned parties that a wedding would occur at some point.  That way it gives someone like Emily a story to tell her friends and buys everyone time, without having to constantly field questions like: "Why aren't Lorelai and Christopher married yet?"  I might be misreading what Taryn was saying, but I don't she was actually suggesting there was much difference between the ages. 

[Taryn74]

Yeah, exactly.  I was just thinking of it as a convenient stalling tactic, something Lorelai could tell Emily to make her happy.  Because when Rory was born, turning 18 was still a good year and a half away, and (depending on if he was in her grade or the grade ahead) would coincide with either Chris graduating or having finished his first year of college.  Saying "Okay, we'll get married, but not right now.  Wait until I at least turn 18" gives Emily a solid date to work with, gives Lorelai some breathing room and gets Emily off her back for a while.  Nothing magical about it beyond that.

[dustylil]

All wedding schemes aside, in Lorelai's position I think I would be trying to figure out how to be Rory's prime caregiver and not  join Christopher headed for college. If she did go to college, it is possible that a nanny could be hired to care for the baby while Lorelai was in class or studying. But I am sure it would seem more reasonable to many people that Rory be left in Hartford with Richard and Emily where she was already settled and would have every advantage.

[txhorns79]

All wedding schemes aside, in Lorelai's position I think I would be trying to figure out how to be Rory's prime caregiver and not  join Christopher headed for college. If she did go to college, it is possible that a nanny could be hired to care for the baby while Lorelai was in class or studying. But I am sure it would seem more reasonable to many people that Rory be left in Hartford with Richard and Emily where she was already settled and would have every advantage.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the quoted comment is trying to say.  It's a little choppy, so I hope my response is on point.   Wouldn't Lorelai's first concern if she wanted to continue her education be to graduate high school or get a GED?  I'm thinking that would be a more important step at that point in her life than wondering whether to attend college with a baby. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

I'm not entirely sure what the quoted comment is trying to say.  It's a little choppy, so I hope my response is on point.   Wouldn't Lorelai's first concern if she wanted to continue her education be to graduate high school or get a GED?  I'm thinking that would be a more important step at that point in her life than wondering whether to attend college with a baby.

Actually the college thing would work very well for two eighteen year olds at a university that has married student housing. Relatives of mine had a baby at eighteen, married and managed to keep both of them in school for several years.

Even a GED would have been a snap for Lorelai with her intellect and a nanny at home when she was 16-17.

Could they have both swung Princeton or Yale? I'm guessing not, but there are other schools.

[dustylil]

Actually the college thing would work very well for two eighteen year olds at a university that has married student housing. Relatives of mine had a baby at eighteen, married and managed to keep both of them in school for several years

 

Of course, and I  entirely concur  such an arrangement  would work well for an "ordinary" young couple.  I was married  as an undergraduate and knew a number of couples who managed to raise two and three children quite well and happily  in married students quarters. And I agree that the GED process would be a breeze for Lorelai.

 

The point I was trying  to make - perhaps too subtly ;) - was wondering if Lorelai should be concerned about  Emily Gilmore  being willing to allow her grandchild to live in a spartan married student residence - or a small apartment in a college town  with a local nappy - as opposed to a comfortable, well run nursery in the senior Gilmore home. With Lorelai and Christopher coming home on weekends to see their little girl, of course.  I can see only Lorelai  of the six adults having a concern with such an arrangement. I think her prime concern was the care and nurturing of her daughter - with college and anything else a distant second.

Edited April 11, 2016 by dustylil

[junienmomo]

Of course, and I  entirely concur  such an arrangement  would work well for an "ordinary" young couple.  I was married  as an undergraduate and knew a number of couples who managed to raise two and three children quite well and happily  in married students quarters. And I agree that the GED process would be a breeze for Lorelai.

 

The point I was trying  to make - perhaps too subtly ;) - was wondering if Lorelai should be concerned about  Emily Gilmore  being willing to allow her grandchild to live in a spartan married student residence - or a small apartment in a college town  with a local nappy - as opposed to a comfortable, well run nursery in the senior Gilmore home. With Lorelai and Christopher coming home on weekends to see their little girl, of course.  I can see only Lorelai  of the six adults having a concern with such an arrangement. I think her prime concern was the care and nurturing of her daughter - with college and anything else a distant second.

 

Yeah, subtle isn't my strong suit at the moment. ;)

Interesting thought, although I believe that Emily would be so happy to have them married that she'd gladly spend $25000 on their living room, like she did for Rory. And Baby Rory would want for nothing. Oh, think about the DAR meetings!

"I visited my daughter and her HUSBAND at Princeton," she said casually. They're living in a brownstone in <oh-so-upscale> neighborhood near the university. Blah blah blah."

Emily would be in her element with a married daughter. 

Lorelai, though, and I agree with you here, she wouldn't hold on long in that situation. She always needed her independence and her Rory.

[Smad]

I've never understood why the S7 romance had to happen. Maybe I'm missing something and someone can give me some insights. I'm going to make my point simply by how I see things from Lorelai's POV. Don't care about Christopher's POV because I don't care about him.

 

From the way ASP told the story the L/C romance was dead and buried on Lorelai's side after the S2 Sherry/pregnancy fiasco. I saw nothing in subsequent Seasons that convinced me Lorelai still harbored some deeply romantic feelings for him. At most I saw nostalgia. Lorelai IMO needed 'closure' with Christopher in only 2 regards (and they kind of tie into each other):

 

1) Boundaries

2) Safety Net

 

After having Rory and going their seperate ways those two have never really set any boundaries. Lorelai had no experience with adult relationships. And setting boundaries with Chris would have meant eliminating her safety net. If there are boundaries then there is no falling back into old ways. Though IMO that was a subconscious thing on Lorelai's part. But if Lorelai had established boundaries then he wouldn't have had the opportunity to come around every time and mess her life up. But if Chris is and always has been in love with her (according to the show) then those boundaries should have been #1 priority for Lorelai.

 

I think Lorelai let him in time and again not because she was in love with him but because she used him as her safety net. He would always think she was 'Wonderwoman'. He would always tell her she was amazing, he would prioritze her even over his own children, he would always do the grand gestures that were nicely distracting over the short term. It's a nice feeling for someone's ego. Letting Lorelai babble endlessly also helped with the distracting. He was a nice cushion to fall back on for her when things got too rough. When the adult realtionships or world were too much it was good to know that she could go to him because she had total control over her relationship with him, get a good ego stroking out of it and run things like she wanted. And with it came the nostalgia of a time before a pregnancy forced her to grow up, hence her relating to him as 15 year old Lorelai, back when things were easier.

 

Whether it's the balcony sex, calling him from her bacherlorette party, Partings or S7. I probably missed some examples but it's late here and I'm tired.

 

It's actually a very negative trait in Lorelai's character to use someone like that. Her saving grace is that she did all of this subconsciously, IMO. But as we saw in S7 all these short term distractions didn't lend themselves to long term happiness. Once she and Christopher were around each other for a longer time he eventually wanted more for himself in the relationship (baby, x-mas traditions, moving, wedding party, room for GiGi etc.) than just sex/fun dates/quipping and that's when things stopped being fun and she blocked him every step of the way. Which is why they never would have worked long term in my opinion. She viewed him a solution to a problem. She wasn't in the relationship because she was deeply in love with him. That's why I will never agree they needed to do the dating/marriage route in S7 because by that point it wasn't about a romantic relationship anymore. It was about Lorelai letting go of the safety net and entering the adult world full time. And for that they didn't need to marry. Dating maybe but no marriage.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Smad

[FictionLover]

I've never understood why the S7 romance had to happen. Maybe I'm missing something and someone can give me some insights. I'm going to make my point simply by how I see things from Lorelai's POV. Don't care about Christopher's POV because I don't care about him.

 

From the way ASP told the story the L/C romance was dead and buried on Lorelai's side after the S2 Sherry/pregnancy fiasco. I saw nothing in subsequent Seasons that convinced me Lorelai still harbored some deeply romantic feelings for him. At most I saw nostalgia. Lorelai IMO needed 'closure' with Christopher in only 2 regards (and they kind of tie into each other):

 

1) Boundaries

2) Safety Net

 

After having Rory and going their seperate ways those two have never really set any boundaries. Lorelai had no experience with adult relationships. And setting boundaries with Chris would have meant eliminating her safety net. If there are boundaries then there is no falling back into old ways. Though IMO that was a subconscious thing on Lorelai's part. But if Lorelai had established boundaries then he wouldn't have had the opportunity to come around every time and mess her life up. But if Chris is and always has been in love with her (according to the show) then those boundaries should have been #1 priority for Lorelai.

 

I think Lorelai let him in time and again not because she was in love with him but because she used him as her safety net. He would always think she was 'Wonderwoman'. He would always tell her she was amazing, he would prioritze her even over his own children, he would always do the grand gestures that were nicely distracting over the short term. It's a nice feeling for someone's ego. Letting Lorelai babble endlessly also helped with the distracting. He was a nice cushion to fall back on for her when things got too rough. When the adult realtionships or world were too much it was good to know that she could go to him because she had total control over her relationship with him, get a good ego stroking out of it and run things like she wanted. And with it came the nostalgia of a time before a pregnancy forced her to grow up, hence her relating to him as 15 year old Lorelai, back when things were easier.

 

Whether it's the balcony sex, calling him from her bacherlorette party, Partings or S7. I probably missed some examples but it's late here and I'm tired.

 

It's actually a very negative trait in Lorelai's character to use someone like that. Her saving grace is that she did all of this subconsciously, IMO. But as we saw in S7 all these short term distractions didn't lend themselves to long term happiness. Once she and Christopher were around each other for a longer time he eventually wanted more for himself in the relationship (baby, x-mas traditions, moving, wedding party, room for GiGi etc.) than just sex/fun dates/quipping and that's when things stopped being fun and she blocked him every step of the way. Which is why they never would have worked long term in my opinion. She viewed him a solution to a problem. She wasn't in the relationship because she was deeply in love with him. That's why I will never agree they needed to do the dating/marriage route in S7 because by that point it wasn't about a romantic relationship anymore. It was about Lorelai letting go of the safety net and entering the adult world full time. And for that they didn't need to marry. Dating maybe but no marriage.

I totally agree, the marriage shouldn't of happened.  I didn't watch the show during it's original run but from what I hear on this site, the L's didn't get along and with Lauren Graham producing, maybe she had some say in it; the marriage kept them apart longer.  I think your character analysis is spot on, but I don't think the writers really cared about the continuity of them. Par for the course for this show.

[junienmomo]

Re: smad's insightful S7 marriage analysis.

Yes, Christopher had the larger piece of emotional baggage that Lorelai placed on her industrial-sized forklift in S7. Emily had the most in the earlier seasons.

Lorelai went through many growth opportunities that she did not grow from over the years.

How much different is "no more kids Christopher" from "you don't have a role as stepdad in Rory's life, Max?"

It makes me think that Alex, who was essentially S4 Lorelai with low drama and a touch of Luke in him, didn't just fade. He was a loving dad, building a business, fisherman guy. Maybe he ran.

[Smad]

I totally agree, the marriage shouldn't of happened.  I didn't watch the show during it's original run but from what I hear on this site, the L's didn't get along and with Lauren Graham producing, maybe she had some say in it; the marriage kept them apart longer.

If you mean with the L's not getting along you are talking about SP and LG then again, I don't buy it. From SPs GG podcast and the ATX stuff it sounded like they got along just fine. However LG was very good friends with DS. Actually If LG really had more power then S7 might have gone differently since she had lamented during S7 that she wanted an actual triangle. We didn't get that at all. I never wanted LG to have much say in the storyline because she was completely out of touch with the actual story. She always made it known that she never actually watched the show so I never took her opinion about anything that happened in the story seriously. Her L/C inclinations seemed to come solely from the fact that the show was about 'wish fullfillment' rather than what the actual story presented. I really do wonder if she ever watched the show she would still hold that opninion.

 

 

I think your character analysis is spot on, but I don't think the writers really cared about the continuity of them. Par for the course for this show.

Actually L/C is one of the few things we can analize IMO. Because from Lorelai's POV the whole thing was pretty consistent throughout the shows run. From Christopher's POV it flip-flopped in S5 (from not being interested at all to suddenly being interested when Emily came knocking). IMO S5 did a good job of showing us that the lack of boundaries was not a good thing. In both 5.06 and 5.09 Lorelai and Chris fell easily into their 'bit' to the point where it became overtly flirty. And both times Lorelai eventually notices and pulls back. Granted 5.06 started with her sitting uncomfortably next to him but then came the 'well I'm hot' which she notices wasn't a good thing to say and pulls back from the banter. But again that's a boundary thing. If you don't have them then this stuff happens over and over. Going to him with tequila considering their history was another thing that falls into that category. Totally inappropriate for a relationship with no boundaries that was sexual in the past (mostly with alcohol involved).

 

Luke's character was changed for the S5/6 plots but not L/C. Which is why I don't bother trying to analize the former while the latter is easier to analize due to consistency.

 

Lorelai went through many growth opportunities that she did not grow from over the years.

The funny part is that Lorelai had a firm understanding of relationships in the earlier Seasons. Her main problem was not practising them when she actually was in a romantic relationship. That's the growth we should have seen.

[hippielamb]

I don't know if I agree that she used him continually. She did use him after breaking up with Luke. Then as they dated I knew it wouldn't last due to how it started it up again. He was happy to get her back (much like she was after he said it was over with Sherry) but she wasn't fully in it and he was used to not only make her feel better but shown as not Luke. (He's fun, he makes her laugh, he allows her into Gigi's life, etc.) I do think they needed to explore a real relationship between them or it would always be a what if. Could either one of them have a successful relationship with anyone if they are wondering about their first love? Probably not.

I was always rooting for them, I'm glad they ended the series in a good place. They are still warm and playful with each other even after everything that has happened.

[Smad]

I don't know if I agree that she used him continually. She did use him after breaking up with Luke. Then as they dated I knew it wouldn't last due to how it started it up again. He was happy to get her back (much like she was after he said it was over with Sherry) but she wasn't fully in it and he was used to not only make her feel better but shown as not Luke. (He's fun, he makes her laugh, he allows her into Gigi's life, etc.) I do think they needed to explore a real relationship between them or it would always be a what if. Could either one of them have a successful relationship with anyone if they are wondering about their first love? Probably not.

Of course he was the not-Luke. But during S5-6 even Luke became not-Luke so ASP could pull off her story. And I think they could have exlored L/C in S3 since that was ASP's plan all along until she couldn't get DS. The problem for me was that after S2 I saw nothing from Lorelai that indicated any kind of need for romantic closure with Chris. And that's usually how it works in life. We don't get the opportunity to explore everything we want to so we can figure out what we want to settle on. Otherwise there would never be any long lasting relationships. At some point you have to make a choice. And IMO after the S2 fiasco Lorelai closed the romance door where Chris is concerned. That ASP suddenly changed her mind because she couldn't think of something else to bring drama to L/L doesn't really change anything because Lorelai was still written (S5/6) the same way in regards to Chris. What some people see as a 'what if' that needs to be explored I simply see as a 'get rid of the safety net' storyline. I see it that way in large part because I saw no romantic interest in Chris from Lorelai post S2.

 

And yes Chris is fun which is nicely distracting. And yes he quips with her and makes her laugh to the point where she completely leaves planet Earth (S7). And yes he lets her into GiGi's life because he wants someone else to take care of the child raising (from his mother to nannies even after becoming a millionaire) which is different from becoming a parental unit.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Smad

[FictionLover]

Of course he was the not-Luke. But during S5-6 even Luke became not-Luke so ASP could pull off her story. And I think they could have exlored L/C in S3 since that was ASP's plan all along until she couldn't get DS. The problem for me was that after S2 I saw nothing from Lorelai that indicated any kind of need for romantic closure with Chris. And that's usually how it works in life. We don't get the opportunity to explore everything we want to so we can figure out what we want to settle on. Otherwise there would never be any long lasting relationships. At some point you have to make a choice. And IMO after the S2 fiasco Lorelai closed the romance door where Chris is concerned. That ASP suddenly changed her mind because she couldn't think of something else to bring drama to L/L doesn't really change anything because Lorelai was still written (S5/6) the same way in regards to Chris. What some people see as a 'what if' that needs to be explored I simply see as a 'get rid of the safety net' storyline. I see it that way in large part because I saw no romantic interest in Chris from Lorelai post S2.

 

I agree. I believe that was totally over Chris the way she was so patient with Luke while he was being such a jackass and she told the psychologist that she never really loved anyone until Luke. 

 

 

I don't know if I agree that she used him continually. She did use him after breaking up with Luke. Then as they dated I knew it wouldn't last due to how it started it up again. He was happy to get her back (much like she was after he said it was over with Sherry) but she wasn't fully in it and he was used to not only make her feel better but shown as not Luke. (He's fun, he makes her laugh, he allows her into Gigi's life, etc.) I do think they needed to explore a real relationship between them or it would always be a what if. Could either one of them have a successful relationship with anyone if they are wondering about their first love? Probably not.

I was always rooting for them, I'm glad they ended the series in a good place. They are still warm and playful with each other even after everything that has happened.

I heard all of the negative stuff on this site (look back on the Luke and Lorelai thread). That being said, I know SP has always been very complimentary of LG in his interviews. Hers, not so much, she had been very conservative on what she says about SP. I saw an interview from some years back but I can't remember the guys name. It was on Hulu when I had a free trial so I can't find it (I tried to google it too). At the end there were questions emailed in and someone asked who she enjoyed kissing more, SP or Billy Bob Thorton (Bad Santa) best. She laughed and acted like she didn't want to answer it, and just as the interviewer was going to let her off the hook, she quickly said "BBT". She could have easily gotten away from not answering it, so it seemed like she wanted to get a little negative jab at SP.

 

I was always rooting for them too.  I hope the revival still has, and keeps them in a good place.  I know the drama keeps things going but I certainly hope they don't tear them apart like they have in the past.

[Smad]

I heard all of the negative stuff on this site (look back on the Luke and Lorelai thread). That being said, I know SP has always been very complimentary of LG in his interviews. Hers, not so much, she had been very conservative on what she says about SP. I saw an interview from some years back but I can't remember the guys name. It was on Hulu when I had a free trial so I can't find it (I tried to google it too). At the end there were questions emailed in and someone asked who she enjoyed kissing more, SP or Billy Bob Thorton (Bad Santa) best. She laughed and acted like she didn't want to answer it, and just as the interviewer was going to let her off the hook, she quickly said "BBT". She could have easily gotten away from not answering it, so it seemed like she wanted to get a little negative jab at SP.

I could easily believe they weren't the closest of friends. I mean SP always described his feelings for LG as those he has for a sister. Kind of icky when you have to kiss a 'sister'. But even if SP 'was blowing smoke' and made it sound like they liked each when they didn't, the Today interview at ATX convinced me that they were fine. When LG mentioned having seen some of the people assembled there and Scott was nodding his head. Or better when asked about how he is like Luke or not and he had a hard time getting his thoughts out LG laid a comforting hand on his knee, like she knew how difficult this was for him. While everyone, including Amy, didn't even know about the story with his dad. But judging from the little comfort LG provided she seemed to.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Smad

[readster]

I could easily believe they weren't the closest of friends. I mean SP always described his feelings for LG as those he has for a sister. Kind of icky when you have to kiss a 'sister'. But even if SP 'was blowing smoke' and made it sound like they liked each when they didn't, the Today interview at ATX convinced me that they were fine. When LG mentioned having seen some of the people assembled there and Scott was nodding his head. Or better when asked about how he is like Luke or not and he had a hard time getting his thoughts out LG laid a comforting hand on his knee, like she knew how difficult this was for him. While everyone, including Amy, didn't even know about the story with his dad. But judging from the little comfort LG provided she seemed to.

Yeah, the more I read and now see these interviews, I think that SP and LG relationship was professional and not the back and forth that the tabloids and websites have made it out back in the day and a few years later. Seeing that happen with the current Castle talk between NF and SK, which will most likely be just "talk" in a few years. I agree with what everyone said about C/L. Yeah, he was a foil and a simpler time, but as shown in S7 with the "illegal" wedding in France. When it was all down, they were just not that. Two people who dated, had sex over reckless reasons and had a kid as a result. In Chris's case, two kids. However, I think if AS-P wouldn't had such a hard on for David Sutcliff and have locked him in before ABC did during season 3. She could have gotten her wish fulfillment done in season 4 and moved on. 

[FictionLover]

I could easily believe they weren't the closest of friends. I mean SP always described his feelings for LG as those he has for a sister. Kind of icky when you have to kiss a 'sister'. But even if SP 'was blowing smoke' and made it sound like they liked each when they didn't, the Today interview at ATX convinced me that they were fine. When LG mentioned having seen some of the people assembled there and Scott was nodding his head. Or better when asked about how he is like Luke or not and he had a hard time getting his thoughts out LG laid a comforting hand on his knee, like she knew how difficult this was for him. While everyone, including Amy, didn't even know about the story with his dad. But judging from the little comfort LG provided she seemed to.

Well, whatever it was, hopefully they have all grown since then.  LG said she didn't know what she had before and it great to have the chance again to appreciate it.

[hippielamb]

And yes Chris is fun which is nicely distracting. And yes he quips with her and makes her laugh to the point where she completely leaves planet Earth (S7). And yes he lets her into GiGi's life because he wants someone else to take care of the child raising (from his mother to nannies even after becoming a millionaire) which is different from becoming a parental unit.

I liked the fun side to Lorelai coming out again after the seriousness of the previous two seasons, though I know not everyone did. It all comes down to your preferences. I do think she kept being reminded of their possibility from Chris being in her life and Emily's constant harping on the subject.

I liked that the show didn't turn Chris into father of the year with Gigi because that would have been out of character, imo. He knew his limitations so he wanted Gigi to have someone else take care of her in the day to day of life. I think he was partly counting on that with Lorelai but it didn't happen. Also, that correlates to how he was most likely raised with nannies and such. Lorelai didn't want that life for Rory but I never got the impression that Chris felt the same. He's better at being the pal type of dad than the full time caregiver but at least he recognizes his flaws as a parent.

[Smad]

I liked the fun side to Lorelai coming out again after the seriousness of the previous two seasons, though I know not everyone did. It all comes down to your preferences. I do think she kept being reminded of their possibility from Chris being in her life and Emily's constant harping on the subject.

Was it really fun though? Yes the early part of L/C in S7 had fun Lorelai because it wasn't too serious. Fun dates, quipping, she held all the cards and no GiGi while perfectly enclosed in a bubble (meaning anything beyond her house, DFI and Hartford didn't exist). Once they got married and Chris tried to actually go for more she blocked him every step of the way. And when that started we had SadFace!Lorelai again. Lorelai was looking for a fun distraction but she was still too effed up to put a stop to it when it went further than that.

[dustylil]

He's better at being the pal type of dad than the full time caregiver but at least he recognizes his flaws as a parent

 

With respect, I'm not so sure about that. After pretty much ditching his wife and elder daughter during Richard's  medical emergency, Christopher seemed somewhat surprised that Logan hadn't bothered to ask his permission to propose to Rory. Logan was at the hospital - he knew  who Rory's  real parent was.

[readster]

With respect, I'm not so sure about that. After pretty much ditching his wife and elder daughter during Richard's  medical emergency, Christopher seemed somewhat surprised that Logan hadn't bothered to ask his permission to propose to Rory. Logan was at the hospital - he knew  who Rory's  real parent was.

Christopher is that parent that screws up or is so oblivious to things and yet everyone enables his behavior. Its like the father or mother who is over bearing or feels they know the world better than everyone else. Yet, when they do things that hurt or screw up their kids or other peoples lives. They still get off the hook because someone says: "Just tell them what they want to hear." Instead of: "Would you get a fucking clue!"