"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[DittyDotDot]

Another lore question, more recent.

Didn't the Steins say that absolutely every single spell in the necronomicon came with a terrible cost and yet they used a spell from it to temporarily free lucifer from the cage with no cost what so ever.

 

Again, welcome to the Carver years, where they say one thing and then either forget they said it or completely ignore it later to make the new plot work. Perhaps there will be a cost we learn about later, but I also wouldn't bank on it.

[Omegamom]

Well, one could argue that the cost for "temporarily" freeing Lucifer was to actually free Lucifer. ??

[trxr4kids]

.

2. Can a demon possess an angel? In the second season opener a demon ends up possessing a reaper to revive Dean but we find out later that reapers are a class of angel. It seems rather odd that demons wouldn't go around possessing angels and learn everything they need that way instead of poking around in their heads with sharp sticks like they did to the pizza kid angel.

Sam was also possessed by Gadreel and Crowley at the same time.

[Omegamom]

???

Wait a minute...what demon possessed Tessa to revive Dean? I thought that Dean just refused to go, and that John made the deal with Azazel, which had nothing to do with Tessa? Argh. Now I have to watch it again.

[catrox14]

Azazel actually did possess Tessa. It was just before Dean was making his decision whether to go with her or not.

 

She started screaming "NO YOU CAN'T DO THIS!"  Then smoke went into her mouth and she then turned to Dean with yellow eyes and said "This is your lucky day, kid" and bopped him on the foreheard restoring him to health.

 

So I could fanwank a demon could possess a reaper...when they were their own species and not bastardized into being angels. 

 

Ugh. CARVERnatural strikes again

Edited March 4, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

???

Wait a minute...what demon possessed Tessa to revive Dean? I thought that Dean just refused to go, and that John made the deal with Azazel, which had nothing to do with Tessa? Argh. Now I have to watch it again.

 

I always assumed Yellow Eyes possessed Tessa in In My Time of Dying. When John made the deal with Yellow Eyes to bring Dean back John asked him if that was something he could do. Yellow Eyes said he couldn't, but he knew someone who could. Pan over to Tessa and Dean, it seems like Dean has decided to go with Tessa then the lights start flashing and Tessa yells "You can't do this", she inhales smoke, her eyes go yellow and her entire demeanor changes. 

 

ETA: or what catrox said...sheesh, I am just thisclose today, aren't I?

Edited March 4, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Omegamom]

Well, dayum. Sure 'nuff. I'd totally forgotten that part.

[SueB]

I have three lore aspects that have always confused me / raised questions for me.

1. Why did Crowley spend an entire season searching for an entrance into Purgatory when in a later season we meet a creature who fares Sam into hell via purgatory and who was clearly subservient to and scared of Crowley. I cannot believe that Crowley, the king of hell, was unaware of this creature during the purgatory search.

2. Can a demon possess an angel? In the second season opener a demon ends up possessing a reaper to revive Dean but we find out later that reapers are a class of angel. It seems rather odd that demons wouldn't go around possessing angels and learn everything they need that way instead of poking around in their heads with sharp sticks like they did to the pizza kid angel.

3. How did Cas get Sam's soul out of the cage in hell? He had to wage a war and lost many comrades getting Dean just out of hell. The cage is another whole level of security, which they've said time and again couldn't be opened except through either the seals breaking or, recently, the spell in the necronomicon.

 

1. While ITA LOL!Canon is a viable answer, I'll give you a different notion in case you want something else.  This is definitely fanwanky.  The Reapers are apparently a class of Angel but like Cupids, they have a specific function.  Their "boss" is the Angel of Death, who we simply know as that snarky dude who likes crap food and says he'll reap God someday.  BUT, before Lucifer did a spell that "released him" (which Death claims really 'bound' him), it's implied in S5 that he was not just hanging around all the time.  Otherwise, why would all the Reapers show up in Carthage MS waiting for him to arrive.  But Reapers were doing their job when he apparently wasn't around (pre-Carthage) and they are doing their job after Dean has theoretically killed him.  All this is to lay the groundwork that while Death is a big shot for the Reapers, he is not all that hands on unless he's causing Chicago to be wiped out or unnaturally raising the dead in Sioux Falls, SD.  Which leads us to ... who was making the calls regarding what soul went to Heaven or Hell for all these millennia?  IMO, it's canon that it is Heaven who makes those decisions.  Both Raphael and Naomi made that clear. And it makes sense because why else would Crowley need to fight to get souls guaranteed for Hell with cross-roads deals. So, if Heaven decides who goes where, then Reapers are (by definition), servants of Heaven.  And later we find out they are a special class of Angel.  Which leads me to: in S6 Heaven was at war and both Raphael and Cas were busy fighting a war.  Reapers still had to reap and probably still had their orders BUT, I think THIS is when Rogue Reapers started showing up.  And Death just didn't give a shit because it's beneath him.  So, if Rogue Reapers didn't pop up until the war was going, perhaps finding one to crack open Purgatory wasn't an option.  Maybe they were traditionally a straight-arrow kind of crowd and if the Angels found out Cas was doing a power grab, they wouldn't have supported him.  Or maybe what they needed was not a way to physically get into Purgatory like Dean and Cas were in Purgatory.  Maybe what they needed was to unlock Purgatory on a different "wave-length".  When Cas put the souls back, it wasn't like there were a bunch of individuals walking off into woods.  It was pure energy.  So while Reapers might be able to take a soul into and out of Purgatory, perhaps they don't function at they type of access Cas and Crowley needed.  Hence, they thought they needed an Alpha to explain how to crack open Purgatory.  So, two options to consider: they didn't have Rogue Reapers who would take orders in S6 (until Heaven truly fell apart) and/or they didn't need to just "visit" Purgatory, they needed to access it a meta-level where they could extract the soul energy.

 

2. I presume Azazel was an ancient, powerful demon that was able to overcome Tessa.  Crowley is powerful but he's not ancient.  Also, like someone else mentioned, a "deal" seems to be powered off of the soul MAKING the deal. So Crowley didn't have any human soul willing to make a deal to crack Alfie's noggin. 

 

3. When God brought back Cas the second time (in Swan Song), Cas said he was better, stronger.  Later in S8 he said he was a Seraph. So, perhaps Seraph's are just one step below Archangels (which is why he was a viable contender to run Heaven versus Raphael in the first place).  So he was more powerful at the end of S5.  Plus in S4, both Heaven and Hell leadership WANTED to start to the Apocalypse without the rank-n-file Angels & Demons knowing better.  What a great way to kick it off but with an equally matched battle where many were killed and the troops were thus rallied?  Now look at the demon resistance after Swan Song.  If you were a rank-n-file demon and Luci was back in the cage.... would you be anywhere NEAR the cage?  Maybe Cas got into Hell relatively easy but didn't realize that what he was grabbing was Sam's physical body.  Perhaps only Lucifer and Sam's SOUL were in the actual cage and what Cas got was the physical form that didn't actually make it into the actual cage.  Maybe Cas grabbed an unconscious Sam and ran and had no confrontation w/ Luci because while he THOUGHT he was in the Cage, he really was Cage-adjacent.

 

TL, DR version:

1). Rogue reapers didn't exist until end of S6 AND/OR they didn't need routine access to Purgatory, they needed to work at the Meta-level to get the soul energy.  Okay, it's a VERY THIN FANWANK and LOL!Canon is just fine too.

2). Azazel was strong but also was riding John's 'soul power' to possess the Reaper.

3). No one was near the Cage, Cas was stronger, and Sam physical body wasn't actually IN the Cage ... it was Cage-adjacent.  His soul, however, was chillin' with Luci in the box.

 

ETA: I think I've thought about this more than the writers. I think they probably just were happy with ignoring Gamble's rules because they wanted to go in a different direction.  Just like they ignored Dean's alcoholism.

 

Thanks for the ideas. Yeah I meant Sam's body, not soul, pardon that mistake.

Another lore question, more recent.

Didn't the Steins say that absolutely every single spell in the necronomicon came with a terrible cost and yet they used a spell from it to temporarily free lucifer from the cage with no cost what so ever.

 

I'd have to say we haven't seen the full impact of letting Lucifer walk free and I expect Biblical class bad news before it's fixed.  So, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Of course for Rowena, the consequences were already dire. 

Edited March 4, 2016 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

TL, DR version:

1). Rogue reapers didn't exist until end of S6 AND/OR they didn't need routine access to Purgatory, they needed to work at the Meta-level to get the soul energy.  Okay, it's a VERY THIN FANWANK and LOL!Canon is just fine too.

2). Azazel was strong but also was riding John's 'soul power' to possess the Reaper.

3). No one was near the Cage, Cas was stronger, and Sam physical body wasn't actually IN the Cage ... it was Cage-adjacent.  His soul, however, was chillin' with Luci in the box.

 

ETA: I think I've thought about this more than the writers. I think they probably just were happy with ignoring Gamble's rules because they wanted to go in a different direction.  Just like they ignored Dean's alcoholism.

 

 

I'd have to say we haven't seen the full impact of letting Lucifer walk free and I expect Biblical class bad news before it's fixed.  So, I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop.  Of course for Rowena, the consequences were already dire. 

 

 

I actually think your fanwanks make a lot of sense, SueB, even and especially the first one. Castiel's and Crowley's goal was to harvest the souls of purgatory, not just open the door. The dragons actually in a way opened the door and let Eve out, and it wasn't really that difficult - a spell and a virgin sacrifice. H.P. Lovecraft and his friends opened the door via some sort of spell and let Eleanor out. But what Crowley and Castiel were doing was more opening a "portal" -  which yes also a doorway, but usually a really BIG doorway, which it would have to be to allow millions of souls to pass through really quickly and get gulped up. So I can entirely believe the magic required to do that would have to be much more powerful/elaborate/harder to pin down than just a trip to purgatory... Interestingly in the end, it also turned out to be a spell, but it required a bit more than just a spell and some virgin blood, since they also had to have an eclipse for it to work too. (In other words Castiel and Crowley didn't just need to open the door - which is what they needed Eleanor to tell them how to do - they needed other magic also to harvest the souls.)

 

I also agree that the rogue reapers may not have existed at the time Crowley was trying to "crack purgatory" and/or he may not have even known that the rogue reapers were able to do that. I'm not even sure that reapers would have to be subservient to Crowley anyway, since usually they work outside of the means of demons and other angels... although both theoretically can "overturn" reapers under certain circumstances (demons via a deal or angels just because they feel like resurrecting somebody).

 

I forget - because I haven't really watched season 8 since it happened - did the rogue reaper even go through a door? Maybe reapers don't have to have an open door like everyone else. Maybe like a ghost goes through walls, they just move through dimensions? If so, then even if they can get people physically in and out, they can only do it one or two persons or beings at a time, and so that wouldn't have done Crowely and Castiel any good.

 

Edited: because apparently it wanted to duplicate my post.

Edited March 5, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

S8: it was a weird zoomy camera swirly effect, requiring Sam to whole his hand.

[AwesomO4000]

S8: it was a weird zoomy camera swirly effect, requiring Sam to whole his hand.

 

Ah, so maybe more like a ghost going through walls than an actual door... In which case, maybe not what Castiel and Cowley needed anyway.

[catrox14]

Gods that whole thing was SOOOO STUPID. LOL.

 

Sigh

[Lrdmordain]

Wow, I love all these possible explanations. You've all apparently been much better at thinking these things through than I have.

 

So, another one that occurred to me today,

 

Do angels have a physical form outside of their human shells? The reason I ask, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but when we last saw Lucifer he was inside Sam and both fell back into the cage. Fast forward to this season and we see him back in his original host form despite the fact that it shouldn't be in the cage, so that got me thinking, maybe he modified his angel "physical form" to mimic his first host? He has physical mass and was able to hurt Sam, Dean, and Cas so he clearly had something going on beside being a mass of white energy. 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Lrdmordain

[catrox14]

Cas said he was the size of the Chrysler building and Zachariah had 4 heads and one of them was a lion....

 

 

Cas also said he spent a year as a multidimensinal wavelength of celestial intent

 

That probably doesn't help though LOL

[Omegamom]

I think of it as a physical extrusion into our dimension, which probably doesn't help, either.

[SueB]

I'm thinking non-corporeal.  Swirly light thingys would be the technical term.  Pure multi-dimensional energy. 

 

.....Now putting on the the Ms Wizard hat....

 

But

 

 

  Yes, that's right. I went there. So the energy has what is termed "relativistic mass".  What we deal with in day to day life is "invariant mass".  Angels, I suspect, have relativistic mass but not invariant mass. Which means they can in fact have a physical effect but their interactions are limited on this plane of existence.

 

Please note: I can sloppily explain modern physics. I can't, for the life of me, figure out how to make a superscript "2" on this page. 

 

As for Luci in the Cage with Sammy (yes, I sang that to the Beatles tune just now.... go ahead, try it...)... Well I'm pretty sure that in the weird "limbo" location of hell that they were in, Lucifer manifested in a convenient temporary physical form that would not hold shape if he left limbo.  Luci picked the form most comfortable visage for a conversation with Sam. The one that he apparently assumed when being Sam's Hallucination.  I'm chalking the temporary physical form to something to do with the temporary Cage and Rowena's spell.  It's probably why he was limited to inside the Cage -- because in order to get him out of the God-cage, she could do so only in a way that his non-corporeal essence couldn't leave the Cage. In order to really leave the Cage, he needed a meatsuit (Cas') to ride out.

 

Just spit-ballin' here.

 

Sorry for the nerd math moment. I couldn't help myself.  

Edited March 5, 2016 by SueB

[Omegamom]

Picture yourself in a cage down in Limbo

Where skulls line the walls and Crowley's the king...

Suddenly there by the bars of the Cage

Is a boy with kaleidoscope eyes...

Luci in the Cage with Sammy!

Luci in the Cage with Sammy!

Luci in the Cage with Sammy!

Ahhhhhhh...

[SueB]

*flicks on lighter and holds it up*

[Lrdmordain]

SueB, I like your idea but didn't we see Luci in that same form looking out through one of the cage's holes/windows at the start of the episode, far before the spell was enacted. That would suggest to me that, at least in Luci's case, he is able to maintain some sort of form in the cage...or somehow he got his old body into the cage after he got put back in.

[Omegamom]

These days, you hold up your phone...

[SueB]

SueB, I like your idea but didn't we see Luci in that same form looking out through one of the cage's holes/windows at the start of the episode, far before the spell was enacted. That would suggest to me that, at least in Luci's case, he is able to maintain some sort of form in the cage...or somehow he got his old body into the cage after he got put back in.

He was looking at Sam in Sam's mind.  So naturally, he looks like Nickifer. 

[catrox14]

He was looking at Sam in Sam's mind.  So naturally, he looks like Nickifer. 

 

I'm gonna nitpick this point to death. Really thought he should have seen Samifer in Sam's mind but I wank that he didn't because Sam has buried Samifer to those dark recesses. 

 

But I could also wank that Sam watched LOST and Lucifer sees Jacob....I got nuthin'

[Omegamom]

Most of the time Sam saw him, he looked like Nick. When he saw himself as Lucifer, like in mirrors, I'm sure there was an immense amount of cognitive dissonance: "That's me, dammit! Not Lucifer!"

[catrox14]

Most of the time Sam saw him, he looked like Nick. When he saw himself as Lucifer, like in mirrors, I'm sure there was an immense amount of cognitive dissonance: "That's me, dammit! Not Lucifer!"

 

 Lucifer and Sam spent 100 years together in the Cage...that's why I still think Samifer would have been who he really should have seen but you know Mark Pellegrino reasons. But I can easily wank that rather tha being cognitive dissonance it's straight up denial, rejection, repression, suppression, dissociation, you name it, for Sam. 

[Omegamom]

I would imagine during the time Sam spent in the Cage, Lucifer took many forms. No need for a vessel in Hell, after all...Luci only needs a vessel to walk around "topside". Mary, Jess, Dean...people who Sam loved, trusted, and/or idolized. What better way to torment someone than to torment them physically, psychologically, emotionally while wearing loved and trusted forms?

Or as a clown. That would get Sam, too.

[SueB]

I'm suddenly having visions of Lucifer dressing up as clowns during Sam's hell time.  Like DAILY.  Because it would be cruel.

[DittyDotDot]

Wow, I love all these possible explanations. You've all apparently been much better at thinking these things through than I have.

 

So, another one that occurred to me today,

 

Do angels have a physical form outside of their human shells? The reason I ask, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but when we last saw Lucifer he was inside Sam and both fell back into the cage. Fast forward to this season and we see him back in his original host form despite the fact that it shouldn't be in the cage, so that got me thinking, maybe he modified his angel "physical form" to mimic his first host? He has physical mass and was able to hurt Sam, Dean, and Cas so he clearly had something going on beside being a mass of white energy. 

 

Well, I think Lucifer said that Sam sees Lucifer as Sam wants to while he's in Hell--Hell being a whole different state of being and all--but if he were to go topside he'd need a corporeal body--that's why he wanted Sam so much. Which makes me wonder who Crowley and Rowena saw Lucifer as. ;)

 

So, yeah, I don't think angels have physical mass unless they're contained in a meatsuit. It does seem like they can still do stuff without the meatsuit--see Castiel in Lazarus Rising--but they can't interact with humans without one. 

[catrox14]

So I was just rewatching Form and Void.....for reasons...

 

I have questions. 

 

--If the Cage cracked when the Darkness was released....when did Lucifer start sending messages to Sam? Was it right away or only after he prayed to God?

-- If it was after he prayed then does that mean that archangels can hear prayers even if the prayer is only invoking God's name?

-- Or did Lucifer immediately start picking at Sam once he knew he the Cage was broken?

--  Do angels only respond to prayers that specifically invoke their name, or if an APB is issued like Dean did in 9.01 when Cas couldn't hear him?

--I know Lucifer said Michael is just a shell in the corner masturbating but I don't know if I believe that.  If Lucifer is sending messages, then really Michael should be too...right? 

Edited March 7, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

In s8, Crowley tried to sell his soul at the auction when Mama Tran sold hers...But the auctioneer said Crowley did not have a soul to sell. Crowley did not dispute this and he proceeded to possess Mama Tran.

 

So then how in the ever loving Hell could Crowley have been being cured by the blood ritual at the end of s8, if he never had a demon soul?  What the fuck? 

 

Seriously, we need to talk about this.

[trxr4kids]

That doesn't and can't make sense, although I dare anyone to try, do what I do sometimes with the show, pretend I didn't happen.

[DittyDotDot]

I decided that Crowley's soul was too tainted to be considered a real human soul; like the auctioneer didn't mean Crowley didn't literally have a soul, just not a soul that was worth a damn.

 

Other than that, I got nothing.

[Demented Daisy]

I took it to mean that Crowley didn't give a damn about his soul, which is why he was able to give it up so cavalierly.  If it had no worth to Crowley, it was worthless to him, too.  Never took it literally.

[catrox14]

 

PLUTUS

It's not about the quantity, chief. It's about the sacrifice. This little lady's soul is the most valuable thing she has. It's everything. Are you willing to offer everything, Mr. Crowley?

DEAN

Tick-tock.

CROWLEY

Fine. You win. I bid... my own soul!

PLUTUS

[laughs] Mr. Crowley, you don't have a soul. [to MRS TRAN] Congrats, sweetheart.

 

I dunno it sure seems to me like it was about Crowley literally having no soul to offer. I think this is a big continuity fail personally.

 

To me, if it was about being a tainted soul, then why wouldn't he just tell Crowley...I could take your soul but it's not worth very much so thanks but no thanks.

Edited March 9, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Well, of course it's a continuity fail--is there anything but continuity fails lately? I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't, I was just offering a solution that worked for me.

[Demented Daisy]

To me, if it was about being a tainted soul, then why wouldn't he just tell Crowley...I could take your soul but it's not worth very much so thanks but no thanks.

 

Because it's not as big an insult?

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I dunno it sure seems to me like it was about Crowley literally having no soul to offer. I think this is a big continuity fail personally.

 

To me, if it was about being a tainted soul, then why wouldn't he just tell Crowley...I could take your soul but it's not worth very much so thanks but no thanks.

I thought it was a snarky comeback-meaning your soul is worthless not that he literally doesn't have one. Like when you tell someone how could you do that, you're heartless. We KNOW they have a heart...

[catrox14]

Well sure that makes sense for a normal human being.  LOL.  I guess that just one of those interpretations of how the scene is acted where I didn't get snark from the auctioneer.  Ach well. Someone needs to ask Sheppard about that at a con or on Twitter.

 

LOL

[catrox14]

I've been re-watching s11 because mini-hellatus. 

 

I was re-watching "Just My Imagination" and Sully knowing about the Darkness reminded me that I don't really get the Darkness' relationship to angels, demons, monsters and other supernatural entities.

 

• When the Darkness first escapes, who knew it first and when? She implied she had been alone for so long that she figured no one remembered her but if the minions in Hell knew about her release, then who saw it happen? Did she have a guard? If there were no guards and it was just whoever had the Mark that kept her locked away, then how did anyone know she was released?   Or was Lucifer the only one that knew  and told the minions?

 

• Or did demons, angels and monsters just feel it innately when it happened? Kind of like how Dean said the Book was calling to him.

 

• The Darkness was apparently locked away for millenia but where?  Was she in solitary confinement in a Hell adjacent dimension? Or Heaven adjacent ? or the Empty??

 

• Were all those smoke monsters that popped out of the ground in Nebraska, millions of demon souls escaping Hell when the Mark was removed from Dean? Did they reunite in the Darkness Vortex? 

 

• Or was that the Darkness in smoke form putting herself back together?

 

• Did humans know about the Darkness before it was released?  I mean if angels and demons knew about it and knew it could destroy ERRYONE didn't someone think it was important enough to share with at least ONE human that we know of? Or maybe they did and that human was Cain? Or was it the Nun that wrote the Book of the Damned? Did I miss something that explained it?

 

• Or did a human know but couldn't speak of it lest they be punished in some horrible way for speaking of it?

 

So many questions.

[FlickChick]

catrox, I'm almost 100% sure that not one of the writers ever thought of any of your questions (much less any feasible answers), before they plunged in and made the Darkness the main arc for the season. ;)

[catrox14]

catrox, I'm almost 100% sure that not one of the writers ever thought of any of your questions (much less any feasible answers), before they plunged in and made the Darkness the main arc for the season. ;)

 

 

LOL, but are they dumb questions? I mean is it silly for me to be asking?

[ahrtee]

LOL, but are they dumb questions? I mean is it silly for me to be asking?

Catrox:   No, they are not dumb questions.  No, it's not silly for you to ask.  Yes, it's silly of you to expect logic from the writers.  :-) 

[catrox14]

Catrox:   No, they are not dumb questions.  No, it's not silly for you to ask.  Yes, it's silly of you to expect logic from the writers.  :-) 

 

LOL Okay well I can't argue that point. But MAN...COME ON WRITERS.  I'm hanging in here with 3 years of active live watching.  Thrown a gal a bone! (or Dean's boner...whichever)...

[FlickChick]

LOL Okay well I can't argue that point. But MAN...COME ON WRITERS.  I'm hanging in here with 3 years of active live watching.  Thrown a gal a bone! (or Dean's boner...whichever)...

LOL indeed. There are never any dumb questions. The writers SHOULD be thinking of questions to answer BEFORE they write. But alas...  And try active live watching for 11 years! ;) 

[trxr4kids]

John was a contradictory fuck a lot of the time.

This got me thinking, but then I got distracted by life and I forgot to post a theory I came up with regarding John's seemingly contradictory behavior. In season 5's This Song Remains the Same, John was horrified that a father would raise a child as a hunter and yet that's exactly what he did just 5 or 6 years later. I know Michael wiped his memory but that wouldn't change who he was as a person, his core beliefs. We saw in the pilot he was a seemingly loving and devoted father and husband, then we find out in Darkside Of The Moon that it was always so rosy. I won't list all of his contrary behaviors, it'd take too long. The main things to me were how he told Sam not to come back if he left for college despite the being presumably aware that Azazel was after Sam and his deathbed speech to Dean.

 

In DotM Dean asks Michael wearing John: Well, what about my dad? Michael says: Better than new, in fact I'm gonna do your mom and dad a favor. Then he goes on to explain he's gonna scrub their minds. I always thought that the scrubbing the mind thing and not leaving him a drooling mess was what he meant by the better than new comment but what if he actually manipulated John's mind in other ways. We now that Sam was monitored and manipulated by demons throughout his childhood and adulthood and Dean by extension, the demons building Sam up while tearing Dean down. It seems to me that since the angels knew it was all about Dean and Sam that they also would have monitored and manipulated Dean and by extension Sam. What better way to do that than manipulating John's natural responses and behavior. It seems doable to me for an archangel, after all he had John's consent. So maybe John was so contrary for a reason other than being an ass, maybe Michael's better than new comment was more sinister then just him being physically fine and forgetting. Maybe he altered John enough that he basically had two different personalities for lack of a better term, on the one hand, a loving husband and father and on the other a husband and father who was driven to alienate and abandon his family.

 

I don't know but it makes sense to me that Michael wouldn't have just settled for erasing memories once he had an opportunity to do more to ensure his victory. I'm thinking he made sure that Dean would feel a crushing sense of responsibility towards Sam as well as a sense of worthlessness, making it practically inevitable that he'd sell his soul and break the first seal. At the same time making Sam feel like an outsider and a freak desperate to get away and be normal leaving him wide open for Azazels plans.

[catrox14]

Ooooohhh...

 

That's a really interesting head!canon trxr4kids.

 

The only other option I have is that John became a raging alcoholic with a side order of vengeance obsession after Mary died which would also lead to him being a contradictory fuck and also leads to Dean and Sam being children of an alcoholic and Dean overcompensating for John's failures as a parent by trying to take care of Sam. And Dean becoming a functional alcoholic himself

 

That said,  I don't think Dean and Sam are actually co-dependent but enmeshed .

Edited March 24, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

Ooooohhh...

 

That's a really interesting head!canon trxr4kids.

 

The only other option I have is that John became a raging alcoholic with a side order of vengeance obsession after Mary died which would also lead to him being a contradictory fuck and also leads to Dean and Sam being children of an alcoholic and Dean overcompensating for John's failures as a parent by trying to take care of Sam. And Dean becoming a functional alcoholic himself

 

That said,  I don't think Dean and Sam are actually co-dependent but enmeshed .

 I think this show has a kinda warped view/portrayal on how alcoholism affects people just based on what we've seen from Dean, meaning the show doesn't view it remotely as an issue that affects people in show the way it would in real life. For example if John was a heavy drinker as was mentioned, he would have surely suffered physical effects prior to his death, the same can be said for Bobby. Likewise Dean who is definitely a heavy drinker/ alcoholic never seems to have any drinking related issues, other than an occasional hangover. I think the show sees it as an extension of the life style as well as a coping mechanism while at the same time not viewing it as a health threat, safety issue or judgment impairment that it really is. In the last episode alone we saw Dean, Bobby, Rufus and Sam all drink way too much and yet it in no way impaired their cognitive functions. I realize irl there are functional alcoholics but imo that doesn't translate to the supernatural universe. It's kind of the same as Sam and Dean being thrown at walls and being knocked out repeatedly without crippling injuries and brain damage, alcoholism doesn't have consequences in supernatural.

[catrox14]

I'm not expecting this show to go into an in-depth 100% accurate depiction of alcohol abuse but I do think the alcoholism in the show is not that far off the mark from RL.  

 

My dad was a functional alcoholic when I was a teenager. He went to work everyday and it was only when his moods went all over the map and he was totally inconsistent emotionally that it was revealed he was drinking daily. Yeah it was kind of bad.  He finally stopped drinking about 5 years later. He never developed cirrhosis but ended up dying of a heart attack when he was 80. 

 

I had another friend who literally drank himself to death. He developed cirrhosis and died when he was not even 45

 

So what I'm saying is not every person has the same issues from alcohol. 

 

Bobby was probably in his 50s in the show.  If he had one or two drinks a day..eh...he might not show anything for years.

 

Dean probably gets a liver reset when Cas heals him LOL. 

 

If John didn't start drinking until Mary died and he died when he was what 45 ish? maybe he didn't develop any physical issues strictly from the alcohol. But I understand that's open to interpretation.

 

I've read some recent research coffee can help protect the liver from alcohol so maybe with all the coffee the Winchesters drink it's helping stave off the cirrhosis. LOL. 

[trxr4kids]

I get that not every person irl has the same issues from alcoholism, believe me I've seen it first hand, sorry you did too. I just think that in supernatural it has the same result as physical injuries that should cripple a person, being none at all. I can see that John's alcoholism explains his behavior but within the context of the show I really feel like "Michael did it" makes more sense canonically. I can ignore Cas' healing mojo because it's never been clarified if he heals the entire body or just the pertinent trauma.

[DittyDotDot]

This got me thinking, but then I got distracted by life and I forgot to post a theory I came up with regarding John's seemingly contradictory behavior. In season 5's This Song Remains the Same, John was horrified that a father would raise a child as a hunter and yet that's exactly what he did just 5 or 6 years later. I know Michael wiped his memory but that wouldn't change who he was as a person, his core beliefs. We saw in the pilot he was a seemingly loving and devoted father and husband, then we find out in Darkside Of The Moon that it was always so rosy. I won't list all of his contrary behaviors, it'd take too long. The main things to me were how he told Sam not to come back if he left for college despite the being presumably aware that Azazel was after Sam and his deathbed speech to Dean.

 

In DotM Dean asks Michael wearing John: Well, what about my dad? Michael says: Better than new, in fact I'm gonna do your mom and dad a favor. Then he goes on to explain he's gonna scrub their minds. I always thought that the scrubbing the mind thing and not leaving him a drooling mess was what he meant by the better than new comment but what if he actually manipulated John's mind in other ways. We now that Sam was monitored and manipulated by demons throughout his childhood and adulthood and Dean by extension, the demons building Sam up while tearing Dean down. It seems to me that since the angels knew it was all about Dean and Sam that they also would have monitored and manipulated Dean and by extension Sam. What better way to do that than manipulating John's natural responses and behavior. It seems doable to me for an archangel, after all he had John's consent. So maybe John was so contrary for a reason other than being an ass, maybe Michael's better than new comment was more sinister then just him being physically fine and forgetting. Maybe he altered John enough that he basically had two different personalities for lack of a better term, on the one hand, a loving husband and father and on the other a husband and father who was driven to alienate and abandon his family.

 

I don't know but it makes sense to me that Michael wouldn't have just settled for erasing memories once he had an opportunity to do more to ensure his victory. I'm thinking he made sure that Dean would feel a crushing sense of responsibility towards Sam as well as a sense of worthlessness, making it practically inevitable that he'd sell his soul and break the first seal. At the same time making Sam feel like an outsider and a freak desperate to get away and be normal leaving him wide open for Azazels plans.

 

It's a very interesting theory you got here. i need to chew on it for a bit to see if it works for me, but I always figured the inconsistencies were a big part of who John was at heart. I mean, I think he was one of those people who said one thing, but did another more often than not. It's like people who, before they have kids, say, "I would never let my child act like that or do that...", but then they have kids and, well, it's not really as easy as they thought it would be.

 

But, I kinda like the idea that Micheal messed with more than just John's memories. It's a bit more sinister that way, so I might have to adopt this theory.

 

As to the alcoholism, I don't know, I grew up around quite a few "functioning" alcoholics. They all had varying degrees of functionality, but they all held down jobs, raised families and were mostly contributing members of society. The drinking didn't really start to take it's toll on them physically until they were in their 60s to 70s. Some stopped drinking, some didn't and effectively killed themselves. John was only in his, what, 40s when he died and led a fairly active lifestyle otherwise so I've never thought it was totally unrealistic. It's interesting to me how TV seems to depict alcoholism as falling down drunk and abusive and tends to forget this other type of alcoholic...I know, it's not as dramatic.

[catrox14]

I get that not every person irl has the same issues from alcoholism, believe me I've seen it first hand, sorry you did too. I just think that in supernatural it has the same result as physical injuries that should cripple a person, being none at all. I can see that John's alcoholism explains his behavior but within the context of the show I really feel like "Michael did it" makes more sense canonically. I can ignore Cas' healing mojo because it's never been clarified if he heals the entire body or just the pertinent trauma.

 

I think Dean had a complete rebuild at least once when he Cas raised him from Perdition completely healed. He didn't have any wounds from the Hellhounds ripping apart his torso which I would imagine included his internal organs like his liver. He also said that every time he was resurrected by Alastair in Hell after his body was tortured and ripped apart his body was put back together again like new.