"What?!?": In Which We Attempt to Address the WTFery of SPN Lore and Whatnot

[catrox14]

Do you ever wonder why can a demon possess a human but not an angel? Or why reapers are now angels? Well, let's discuss it!

 

I though this might be a fun ready-reference area to compare and contrast, dissect and discuss these and other things in a feeble attempt to make sense of the amoebic nature of SPN lore. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by catrox14

[dragonsbite]

Do you ever wonder why can a demon possess a human but not an angel?

 

I assumed that demons take a human's body without consent -- which can be interpreted as rape. And since rape is an evil and violent act, that seems normal for a demon. Angels must have consent to take over a human's body, implying that they're still obedient to God's will. Weren't angels supposed to be ministering spirits for humans and sent by God to serve the saints? 

 

However, since Lucifer -- an "evil" angel -- required consent to take Sam's body, the constriction on the angels doesn't fade, regardless of their affiliation to God. Interestingly, Lucifer required Castiel's consent. I took that to mean he would have had to fight Castiel (and likely won) for that meatsuit. It's not clear whether Lucifer had ever intended to inhabit Castiel's meatsuit.

[Omegamom]

Demons can possess a vessel possessed by an angel -- witness Crowley possessing Sam to find him and convince him to kick Gadreel out. But it took some screwing with Gadreel's core programming to get him in, so it's not going to be a common everyday event.

As for possessing an angel directly -- well, angels are multi-dimensional beings of celestial intent, and not human. Demons are, at the end of the day, twisted human souls. So they've got power enough to invade a normal, untainted human, but way too little power to go messing with MDBoCIs.

At least, that's my take. ;-)

My question is why didn't Death's death really screw up the universe? He's not just a titular head -- in Appointment in Samarra, Reapers work with him. (It?) He's needed to seal the deal when someone dies; Reapers just take the dead soul to the proper place, Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. So, according to lore, if you ain't got capital-D Death, you ain't got lower-case d death. Which should be a big, whopping problem!

Edited February 5, 2016 by Omegamom

[catrox14]

 

My question is why didn't Death's death really screw up the universe? He's not just a titular head -- in Appointment in Samarra, Reapers work with him. (It?) He's needed to seal the deal when someone dies; Reapers just take the dead soul to the proper place, Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. So, according to lore, if you ain't got capital-D Death, you ain't got lower-case d death. Which should be a big, whopping problem!

 

This has been driving me CRAZY. I keep coming back to Dean saying "You can't kill Death" and needing Death's Scythe which was a teeny tiny one not the giant one Death handed him in Brother's Keeper.

 

I wonder if anyone is actually really dying now. Billie said reapers jobs are a lot harder now, so are they left making the choices? Do we know for a fact that the "Rabids" actually died in that hospital before Sam cured them? Is Len really most sincerely dead since Amara has his soul inside her? He just would need a new meatsuit if she were to give him back his soul, theoretically?

 

I wonder if Amara keeping souls is keeping the balance of the universe right now with the absence of Death...

 

Hmmm

 

Hmmm....off to spoilers and spec with more thought

[AwesomO4000]

I have one that's fairly inconsequential, but it still bugs...

 

Where do angels keep their swords? They can't possibly be just up the sleeves of their hosts, right? Because they'd be stabbing themselves all the time or the swords would be falling out. So does the sword get stashed in an alternate place/dimensional space like their wings do (well maybe. I'm not clear on where the wings are stashed either for that matter) or what? Because when an angel goes splat via another more powerful angel - like Lucifer or Godstiel - said sword doesn't fall down and we don't see any shiny metal pieces flying out. So where's the sword?

[DittyDotDot]

I've always wondered what really stops them from possessing a human without permission.  I mean what would be the penalty? Would they just not be ABLE to do it, or do they get struck down by God or burn up, or what?

 

I responded with this:

 

Well considering that Sam was able to eject Gadreel, I assume they just can't stay if the host doesn't want them. Like there has to be a continual acceptance from the host. That's probably why both Lucifer and Gadreel locked Sam in some fantasy world. Yeah, good luck figuring out the consistency on that one, though.

 

And catrox responded with:

Gadreel told Dean that  Sam could eject him at anytime but Gadreel locked Sam so far away he couldn't which is why they used the angel brain digging gadget to find where Sam was stashed. Then Crowley had to possess Sam to get Sam to physically/metaphorically fight Gadreel to kick him out. That wasn't continual consent from Sam.  That was Gadreel homesteading in Sam by then.

If Sam hadn't physically/metaphorically fought Gadreel and was stronger than Gadreel, then he wouldn't have been able to kick him out.

 

I guess I wasn't meaning literally giving consent, but not voicing discontent, so to speak. That's why Gadreel kept wiping Sam's mind and then eventually just locked Sam in a fantasy because he knew if Sam knew he was being possessed Sam could tell him to get out. Which is basically all Sam did, just from inside his head. To me, it wasn't the fight inside Sam's head, but Sam vocalizing that he didn't want Gadreel to possess him--that's the moment Gadreel was forced out.

 

When Lucifer possessed Sam in S5, Sam was aware and agreeable to the possession and never considered kicking him out, but perhaps that's why Lucifer was trying to hard to keep "appeased"? Sure, part of it was Luci's own ego and wanting Sam to see his side, but now that they've thrown out this idea the host can eject the angel, it also adds another dimension to it all, IMO.

 

Looking at Jimmy and Cass, this seems to hold water too. As long as Jimmy was agreeable to the possession, Cass was welcome. After Cass got taken to heaven, Jimmy wasn't so agreeable to having Cass return until Cass was already inside his daughter...then Jimmy begged Cass to take him instead.

 

All I'm saying is that I don't think there are "consequences" to angels after the possession--as though it's just something thought of as wrong, but can physically do it if they so desire--I understand it's physically impossible for them to do it. I chalk it up to "wizards" as to the why.

 

As a silly little aside: I rather enjoyed the British (and original) version of Being Human, so I watched the first season of the U.S. version out of curiosity and knowing Carver was involved. Anyway there's a funny scene in the first season where the ghost goes a little whacko and the werewolf and calls the vampire for advice on how to keep from getting killed. Them vampire tells him that iron will repel spirits and salt can trap her. The werewolf then replies with something like, "Salt, iron, who makes these rules?" I remember sitting on my couch saying, "Kripke, Eric Kripke  made those rules." I know Kripke didn't make it up and it's well-established within the genre, but it amused me by thinking Carver had learned it from Supernatural. So, sometimes instead of "wizards" I say, "It's Kripke's universe; he mades the rules and now everyone else has to live with them no matter how little sense they make." ;)

 

 

My question is why didn't Death's death really screw up the universe? He's not just a titular head -- in Appointment in Samarra, Reapers work with him. (It?) He's needed to seal the deal when someone dies; Reapers just take the dead soul to the proper place, Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory. So, according to lore, if you ain't got capital-D Death, you ain't got lower-case d death. Which should be a big, whopping problem!

 

Yeah, I'd like to know this too. Like, what was even the point of killing Death other than to say they killed Death?

I have one that's fairly inconsequential, but it still bugs...

 

Where do angels keep their swords? They can't possibly be just up the sleeves of their hosts, right? Because they'd be stabbing themselves all the time or the swords would be falling out. So does the sword get stashed in an alternate place/dimensional space like their wings do (well maybe. I'm not clear on where the wings are stashed either for that matter) or what? Because when an angel goes splat via another more powerful angel - like Lucifer or Godstiel - said sword doesn't fall down and we don't see any shiny metal pieces flying out. So where's the sword?

 

I have a better one: How does a physical sword kill a multi-dimensional celestial being? Or, why would multi-dimensional celestial beings be carrying around a physical sword? 

 

I know, "wizards!"

Edited February 5, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

catrox, you had me at "minutia". And lore? Lore is like the frosting on the cake for me.

 

Death:

I believe Death doesn't actually have to be physically around for people to die. 

 

Until Lucifer did his "unseemly little spell" that bound death, it's not clear where Death was hanging out.  It could have been Death was just doing his thing and all the spell did (at Carthage, with all the deaths), just bound him.  But reapers gathered around that spot to wait for the boss to show up when Lucifer was prepping.... so it sure implies something "different" was happening.  Later, however, Death tells Dean that Earth is just some 'insignificant little planet in a galaxy barely out of it's diapers'.  He implies he hangs out elsewhere all the time.  But Dean has to not only wear Death's ring, he had to physically touch people to make them die.  To me, the answer to that element is simple: Dean's just a human.  If he's going to "be Death" for a day, he's going to be limited by the nature of his existence -- hence the ring and the touching.  Death, OTOH, appeared to have just brushed his shoulder and made an asshole die in his grand entrance.  Which leads me to... how DOES Death engage in all the deaths?  I think the obvious answer is... he doesn't.  He is a part of the natural order and he can kill if it's time for them to die (or apparently if he's under a spell that subverts the natural order -- like Lucifer's spell apparently did).  But people are going to die according to this natural order.  Maybe Death is the individual who created that aspect of the natural order that results in death.  And it's universal, which is why it applies to all the planets in all the galaxies.

 

Well then... what the hell happened when Death "died"?  Why didn't that disrupt the natural order (to the same extent, at least, that binding did).  My answer to this is also simple - Death is not really "dead".  Death has been sent off to somewhere when Dean got him with his scythe but the natural order has not been damaged. And what Dean did may be preventing Death from just be-bopping around like he has been since being "et out" by Lucifer at Carthage. Maybe Death was someplace "remote" prior to Luci's spell and Dean sent him back there.  Now for the Reapers, he's gone.  But the natural order established by Death, remains.

 

I still think Death has some connection to Amara.  She is the Dark, seems like that would be a part of his eternal DNA.

 

 

Angel Blades:

I'm presuming that coming to an earthly plane of existence engages all sorts of rules One of them being they need human hosts to physically interact with humans.  Te second being that in order to kill another angel while both are possessing vessels, angels need to use a device that exists in the physical plane (the Angel blade).

[Omegamom]

Spring-loaded wrist sheaths is the answer to where angel blades are kept. You can hear the"snick" of the spring being released when it pops down their sleeve. If an angel dies without unsheathing its blade, the blade is, presumably, still up its sleeve.

This also begs the question of what police departments made of the sudden influx of fancy sharp-bladed weapons found on dead bodies around the world during the (unbeknownst to said PDs) Angel Wars...

Also, there must be a glut of them on Earth now, due to same wars and the number of dead angels...

In my head, angel blades are some special kind of metal that is Bad for angels...titanium? An alloy of silver and other things? Gallifreyan metal? Maybe they're allergic to it. Maybe it's actual multi-dimensional, also (thus, Gallifreyan would fit ;-) ). Whatever they are made of, they affect the actual multi-dimensional being of the angel. Pops 'em like a bug.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Omegamom

[rue721]

Even if Death is gone, Hell and Heaven still need human souls in order to keep the lights on.

 

Maybe Reapers have gone freelance. Maybe Heaven and Hell are offering bounties on souls. (That's what I would do, if I were Naomii).

 

If there are bounties on souls, lots of random supernatural creatures might want to take up soul-collecting as a way of making some $ (or whatever else a random supe might think is valuable). It might not be chaos, it might just be late capitalism. :P

[trxr4kids]

How was The Darkness/Amara released? Lucifer was the original bearer, he gave it to Cain who gave it to Dean, like a weird supernatural std. In About A Boy Dean no longer had the mark for a whole day so if he was the only mark bearer then we should have had smog clouds. I have to assume that we didn't because Cain was still alive and still had it too. Lucifer is still alive, therefore he should still have the mark.

[Demented Daisy]

The theory is that Lucifer literally gave the Mark to Cain, removing it from himself.  Is that possible?  No idea, since the show hasn't addressed it.

[DittyDotDot]

Yeah, I'm not sure, but I wonder if the Mark must be worn by a human. Since Lucifer is and angel, I've taken to thinking Lucifer carried the Mark, but never wore it himself. Not sure if this is what the show was trying to imply, though, or if they just screwed up and forgot about that detail.

[trxr4kids]

If Lucifer just carried the mark( maybe in some sort of fanny pack) it shouldn't have been able to corrupt him though, right?

 

Why did the angels bother resurrecting Dean after he broke the seal? I know the original spiel was that only he could kill Lucifer. But they really meant Michael wearing him and since Adam was around wouldn't it have just been easier to get Adam to say yes rather than going through all that trouble?

 

ETA: Thanks catrox for this awesome thread!

Edited February 6, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

Oh boy. The Mark of Cain.  I feel like we should have a thread devoted solely to that bit of lore because HOLY MOLY there is ton there to discuss IMO.

 

The theory is that Lucifer literally gave the Mark to Cain, removing it from himself.  Is that possible?  No idea, since the show hasn't addressed it.

 

Cain still had the Mark even after he gave it to Dean as we saw when it lit up before he killed the demons in his house and again when he got the Blade back in Executioner's Song. And it could only be removed from Dean by spell.

 

So a few thoughts

 

-- IMO The Darkness wasn't released when Dean de-aged because Cain was still alive and had it so he become the Lock temporarily. When Dean re-aged, the Lock duties went back to Dean

 

--According to Rowena the Mark is "just a curse" and could be removed by spell. If Lucifer doesn't have it, then IMO it was removed by spell or he had the power as an archangel to pass it on.

 

But why would he do that when it gave him ultimate power?  Maybe he knew he was the Lock and didn't want to do it anymore so he gave it up to Cain but never told Cain that is what is for. He got Cain to do his dirty work making the Knights of Hell.  Is that why God locked him in the Cage the first time because he gave the Mark to Cain?

 

--If Lucifer had the Mark but no longer does then maybe the spell is what broke the Cage and lifted the Mark from Lucifer either inadvertently or on purpose. 

 

--Lucifer still has the Mark but it's latent and he doesn't know he still has it and it has to be activated in some way.

 

I have wondered if Dean had still been a demon when Rowena tried to remove the Mark if it would have not worked. Like did the spell only work because Dean was human. 

 

--Lucifer may have given up the Mark but since Dean is still attached to Amara via the Mark, then Lucifer should theoretically be attached too as a former bearer of the Mark.

 

 

--I have wondered if Dean had still been a demon when Rowena tried to remove the Mark if it would have not worked. Like did the spell only work because Dean was human.

 

[sidebar: AHHHHH missed opportunity 9823872631. Instead of curing demon!Dean so early on, cure fails because the Mark won't let him be cured. Sam has to go to Rowena to have her try to remove the Mark first so he can cure demon!Dean but WHOOPS!! she tells him if she removes the Mark, this thing called the Darkness would be released and Sam is faced with a choice of demon!Free!Dean or the Darkness being out in the world. (hmmm I might actually write about that) ]

 

 

ETA: Thanks catrox for this awesome thread!

 

Aww, thanks! And you're welcome! I'm glad everyone seems to be enjoying it. I wasn't sure but thought I'd throw it out there anyway!

Edited February 6, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

If Lucifer just carried the mark( maybe in some sort of fanny pack) it shouldn't have been able to corrupt him though, right?

 

Perhaps it didn't. Maybe Lucifer was never the shiny wonderful angel God thought him to be and God just used the Mark as an excuse so he didn't have to admit his favorite was always a petty and jealous little boy?

 

Or maybe the Mark can corrupt and angel just by being in it's proximity, but humans have to actually make it a part of them to have it affect them? 

[catrox14]

@Awesom04000
 

Where do angels keep their swords?

 

....IN THEIR PANTS! Or at least that's where I think Castiel keeps his other one...with Dean's name on it. Hi I'm 13.

[Omegamom]

Angel blades...hurr hurr hurr. I'm 13, also.

"Is that a blade in your sheath, or are you just happy to see me?" Snorfle. Snurck. Hee hee hee. Imma killn' myself here.

[SueB]

Why did the angels bother resurrecting Dean after he broke the seal? I know the original spiel was that only he could kill Lucifer. But they really meant Michael wearing him and since Adam was around wouldn't it have just been easier to get Adam to say yes rather than going through all that trouble?

 

Dean, the eldest brother, was the product of two big family lines (the Campbell Hunters and the Winchester Men of Letters). He was Micheal's "one true vessel".  Adam was an improvisation. He was only half of the bloodlines they wanted.  Lucifer was out and about but didn't have Sam.  As soon as Lucifer had Sam, it was going to be "game over" and they HAD to have a vessel of some kind.  In the mean-time, they had originally planned to use Adam simply as bait.  When that failed, Adam officially became the back-up plan (because Winchesters are STUBBORN). 

[trxr4kids]

I remember all of that SueB, it just doesn't make sense to me from a logical standpoint. Option 1 lay siege to hell likely losing angels in the process, perform a resurrection or option 2 go get Adam and manipulate or coerce him. It seems ludicrous but then again Michael was sure Dean would say yes so it likely didn't occur to him he'd end up stuck with Adam. Also there's the issue that Cas Molotoved him and he was able to come back in minutes, what difference would wearing a Dean suit make?

Edited February 7, 2016 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

The angels' own egos are their biggest downfall. They believed Dean would do what they wanted, so they went for the golden meat suit. If they'd only taken a second to consider who Dean Winchester is, they'd probably realized he was never going to do as he was told and just resurrected Adam from the get-go.

[SueB]

I remember all of that SueB, it just doesn't make sense to me from a logical standpoint. Option 1 lay siege to hell likely losing angels in the process, perform a resurrection or option 2 go get Adam and manipulate or coerce him. It seems ludicrous but then again Michael was sure Dean would say yes so it likely didn't occur to him he'd end up stuck with Adam. Also there's the issue that Cas Molotoved him and he was able to come back in minutes, what difference would wearing a Dean suit make?

I'm going with Dean was a "custom fit" for Micheal. I presumed Adam would not be as powerful a vessel (and thus effect his fight with Lucifer).  Of course the whole "must take human form" is a bit of a crock... but if you were going up against Lucifer, wouldn't you want the best vessel?  And I'm not sure Micheal considered those Angels who went to Hell for Dean anything other than cannon fodder.  Kinda arrogant and all that.  

 

ETA: (or what DittyDotDot said if I had read her response first).

Edited February 7, 2016 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

Didn't Gabriel say that it was originally God's plan (or something like that) that it be Sam and Dean?  If I'm remembering that correctly, then the angels were probably following God's playbook, but had to improvise when a human named Dean Winchester behaved in the way that God created him.  ;-)

[trxr4kids]

Oh good point DD, still shitty plan though, moving on.

 

The handprint brand, where did it come from? Dean crawls out of his grave, walks to the gas station, drinks some water, washes his face sees the brand, eats jerky, gathers porn, gets money, Cas in his true form tries to speak to Dean, he had yet to pick up Jimmy. Cas has said his trueform was the size of the Chysler Building, if he had hands wouldn't they be oh, say the size of a bus or plane? He's also said that he was a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent, I wouldn't think a wavelength would have a hand.

Edited February 7, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

IIRC, Cas had already taken Jimmy as a vessel before he ever went to save Dean. So the handprint is Cas' from him raising him from Perdition. 

[AwesomO4000]

I remember all of that SueB, it just doesn't make sense to me from a logical standpoint. Option 1 lay siege to hell likely losing angels in the process, perform a resurrection or option 2 go get Adam and manipulate or coerce him. It seems ludicrous but then again Michael was sure Dean would say yes so it likely didn't occur to him he'd end up stuck with Adam. Also there's the issue that Cas Molotoved him and he was able to come back in minutes, what difference would wearing a Dean suit make?

 

I agree with SueB about the cannon fodder. In order for the higher up angels' plan to work the way they wanted and they get their big fight, Dean had to break the first seal, so unless there was some sort of home field advantage in hell for the demons - since the typical grunt demon is easily smited by the typical grunt angel - I'm guessing the original forays to get Dean out were small and supposed to fail - i.e. cannon fodder, and basically a way to rally the troops, so to speak, and let them think that those in charge were trying to do something about the problem. That is if what Castiel told Dean was even true in the first place... i.e. that as soon as Dean ended up in hell, they tried to get him out, rather than Dean "breaking the first seal" setting off some kind of alarm bells, so then they went to get Dean out. As for why it then took the angels 10 more years to get Dean out, I have a couple of theories 1) the angels in charge didn't really care and/or wanted to have something to hold over Dean as leverage later and so took their time on purpose, and due to the time difference in hell, it wouldn't take much time on earth for that to happen. I don't know what the time scale is in heaven. Or 2) when they started fighting in earnest - after the seal was broken - the potential home-field advantage thing kicked in and it was much harder to get Dean out than they thought, and so it took 10 years hell time. Either way, I'm going with Michael and Zach didn't care much about the grunt angel cannon fodder. So I'm sure Castiel was sincere with his explanation to Dean about heaven fighting hard to get Dean out once he ended up in hell but they were just too late (that he gave in "On the Head of a Pin",) but I'm not convinced that that was the reality of the situation.

 

Theoretically, if they really wanted to stop the apocalypse, they could've just killed Ruby. There was a scene somewhere early in season 4 that was cut which kind of showed this (it's an extra scene on the DVDs) and explained a lot. The reason they didn't - and in the cut scene, Uriel did propose smiting Ruby (well first he proposed smiting Sam) - was that orders were to not touch Ruby with exposition, I think if I'm remembering correctly, that she had a part to play. Since Ruby was the one who knew the plan, smiting her theoretically would've stopped the apocalypse, so the higher up angels would've wanted her around, just like they would want Dean to break the first seal.

 

As for Adam, I agree he was just supposed to be bait as Zachariah told him, but Michael got his pride hurt and decided that fine, if Dean was going to be a pain in the ass, he'd just use Adam, and who cared if a few more people died, because he wasn't the best host body? I think Michael still thought he'd beat Lucifer anyway - because ego - and so maybe just a few more 100,000 people or so would die if he stayed in Adam: so what?

 

Interesting to me is that in doing all of that, most of the supposed "good" angels on Michael's side treated humans almost as badly as Lucifer did. Michael himself was shown to have little regard for humans who just happened to inconveniently be in his way as shown by his plan in the first place and in the bar scene at the beginning of "Point of No Return," I think it was. At least Uriel - after killing off his fellow angels as cannon fodder - admitted that this was how he felt and that's why he was pro-Lucifer. Michael just casually killed them just to have a conversation and shrugged his shoulders at potentially half the people in the world being killed just so he could fulfill "Dad's plan" while touting himself as having some higher moral ground when compared to Lucifer when it came to humans.

 

You might be able to tell that I thought Michael was a dick.

 

 

The handprint brand, where did it come from? Dean crawls out of his grave, walks to the gas station, drinks some water, washes his face sees the brand, eats jerky, gathers porn, gets money, Cas in his true form tries to speak to Dean, he had yet to pick up Jimmy. Cas has said his trueform was the size of the Chysler Building, if he had hands wouldn't they be oh, say the size of a bus or plane? He's also said that he was a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent, I wouldn't think a wavelength would have a hand.

 

Good question, trxr4kids. Though I didn't exactly think of it this way, my fanfic "fixes" all this in that Castiel already has his host Jimmy when he resurrects Dean's body and puts Dean's soul (that he carried out of hell) back in (obviously my fic is not canon), so the hand print is Cas grabbing Dean's body and putting life back into it. Rather than wavelength Castiel - who yes, should have huge hand if he had a hand at all - leaving an imprint on Dean's soul or his body while resurrecting it.

 

Edited to fix, because apparently the site only posted 3/4 of my post and then just decided to edit it on its own.

Edited February 7, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[DittyDotDot]

Oh good point DD, still shitty plan though, moving on.

 

The handprint brand, where did it come from? Dean crawls out of his grave, walks to the gas station, drinks some water, washes his face sees the brand, eats jerky, gathers porn, gets money, Cas in his true form tries to speak to Dean, he had yet to pick up Jimmy. Cas has said his trueform was the size of the Chysler Building, if he had hands wouldn't they be oh, say the size of a bus or plane? He's also said that he was a multidimensional wavelength of celestial intent, I wouldn't think a wavelength would have a hand.

 

Perhaps angels were made in God's image, as well as humans? ;)

 

No, seriously, you bring up a good point. I got nothing, though. 

IIRC, Cas had already taken Jimmy as a vessel before he ever went to save Dean. So the handprint is Cas' from him raising him from Perdition. 

 

I'm pretty sure Cass didn't get Jimmy until after Dean was resurrected. It was after Dean couldn't understand Cass--the shattering of the glass at the gas station and breaking the mirror in the motel--Castiel went and got Jimmy so he could communicate with Dean. That's where the whole "holy tax accountant" comment comes from.

 

Which brings me back to the whole issue of: Why do angels need vessels unless they want to communicate with humans?

[SueB]

I'm gonna go with Cas was non corporeal but used a hand-like shape to grave Dean's non corporeal soul. This ended up leaving a Mark on Dean that was the result of a save. That it was in the shape of a hand was 'symbolic'. If it left a Mark, something obvious makes sense. In this case it was a 'person to person' contact symbol (hand).

This BTW is clearly Fabiano as we have nothing in canon that explains how a non-corporeal Angel physically rescues a human soul.

[catrox14]

Perhaps angels were made in God's image, as well as humans? ;)

 

No, seriously, you bring up a good point. I got nothing, though. 

 

I'm pretty sure Cass didn't get Jimmy until after Dean was resurrected. It was after Dean couldn't understand Cass--the shattering of the glass at the gas station and breaking the mirror in the motel--Castiel went and got Jimmy so he could communicate with Dean. That's where the whole "holy tax accountant" comment comes from.

 

Which brings me back to the whole issue of: Why do angels need vessels unless they want to communicate with humans?

 

 

Thought I'd check the SuperWiki and I found this...which comports with what I remember from the timeline in The Rapture

 

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Jimmy_Novak

 

 

Jimmy dressed in a suit and trenchcoat and stands in front of his house. He prays, and Castiel answers. Jimmy agrees to act as a vessel, provided that his family is protected. Castiel descends, possessing him. Jimmy becomes a vessel not long before Dean is resurrected.

 

 

Hmmm.. a discrepancy with continuity in this show? I'm shocked! Shocked!

Edited February 7, 2016 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

In Lazarus Rising, Castiel says was trying to contact Dean in his true form, but Dean couldn't hear him.  My impression has always been that Cass had been working on Jimmy for a while, but didn't pull the trigger until he needed to communicate with Dean. 

 

CASTIEL: That was my mistake. Certain people, special people, can perceive my true visage. I thought you would be one of them. I was wrong.

DEAN: And what visage are you in now, huh? What, holy tax accountant?
CASTIEL: This? This is... a vessel.

 

The whole visage exchange suggests he was not in Jimmy when he first approached Dean.

 

I'm probably also colored by an expanded scene on the DVDs where Dean suggests he could've saved a lot of time to just show up like Jimmy in the first place and Castiel says finding a vessel takes time:

Edited February 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[trxr4kids]

catrox posted a gif of Dean from Love Hurts in the ep thread which lead to bethy commenting on Sam and Dean's improved fake FBI wardrobe. My questions are.......Where are the garment bags when driving to or from jobs or in motel rooms, surely those suits and jackets aren't wadded up in a duffle bag....Suits are dry clean only, I can only imagine explaining the questionable damage/stains, surely they have to constantly switch dry cleaners...Wouldn't they then have a hard time keeping track of where they left what suit?

[Demented Daisy]

Mary's bracelet has an Aquarian star on it, which the Men of Letters use.

 

Accident?  Carver didn't do his research?  Because it doesn't work with what we've been told about the Campbells and Winchesters.

[catrox14]

I can fanwank that Grampa Campbell just found it and thought it would help ward off baddies without knowing anything about it's connection to the Men of Letters or even knowing about the MoL at all.

[auntvi]

So when a person uses the blood sigil against an angel, where does it send the angel? I thought it was back to heaven, but I wouldn't think that Lucifer would end up in heaven.

[catrox14]

So when a person uses the blood sigil against an angel, where does it send the angel? I thought it was back to heaven, but I wouldn't think that Lucifer would end up in heaven.

 

 

Maybe because he was in Cas he went to Heaven briefly? Or just in limbo of some kind but that is a great question.

[SueB]

Two times we have data:

- When Cas used it on himself, he showed up on a oil rig in the Gulf Coast -- naked and unconcious

- When Dean used it on the Angel's in Cas' room at the mental hospital, Cas wound up in Perth, Australia at a dog track

 

I think it just randomly blows them far enough away that it takes a moment for them to orient and come back.  Angel-B-Gone sigil, it has many uses.

[auntvi]

I broke down and checked the Supernatural wiki. Doh! The Angel Banishing Sigil temporarily banishes angels from a location on Earth to another location on Earth.

 

The angel banishing sigil must be drawn in blood. It temporarily banishes angels (except the one who drew it) from that location. However, in 5.18 Point of No Return, Castiel banishes four angels and himself with a sigil he carved on his chest. Apparently it banishes the angels in range to another location on Earth as after being banished in 7.21 Reading Is Fundamental, he calls from a dog track in Perth, Australia and wound up on a fishing boat after banishing himself and the other angels. It may also weaken the angels when they are banished, as Castiel notes that it takes banished angels some time to return after they are exposed to such a sigil, and Castiel lost most of his remaining powers after his fall from Heaven when he banished himself.

 

[trxr4kids]

How is Cas able to be Lucifer's vessel? We were told back in season 5 that even in order for Sam, his true vessel to contain him without burning up he'd have to drink demon blood. Sure God remade him with a power boost but he didn't have the power of Raphael without sucking up purgatory for power and in doing so he was showing the same wear that Nick did, that implies his body was unable to handle that amount of power, the power of an archangel. So how is able to contain both graces without just exploding?

[Omegamom]

My head!canon is that God remade Jimmy Novak's body so it was specially designed to hold angels. In other words, it's no longer a strictly "human" body, but a better fit. Which is why Lucifer decided to kill Sam after all, because with Cas's vessel, he didn't need his tailor-made special human body any more.

[trxr4kids]

Sure but God remade his body to specifically hold Castiel, just like Dean and Sam were made to specifically hold Michael and Lucifer. In season 9 they showed what happens to random people who aren't made to be vessels, they explode. Cas was not remade to house an archangel otherwise wouldn't he have been one? He wasn't because he was no match for Raphael gracewise. So why can he now hold not only his own grace but Lucifer's as well?

Edited February 18, 2016 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

Sure but God remade his body to specifically hold Castiel, just like Dean and Sam were made to specifically hold Michael and Lucifer. In season 9 they showed what happens to random people who aren't made to be vessels, they explode. Cas was not remade to house an archangel otherwise wouldn't he have been one? He wasn't because he was no match for Raphael gracewise. So why can he now hold not only his own grace but Lucifer's as well?

 

 

Cas is his own meatsuit now. He's like when Dean became his own demon. It's not through possession anymore. He is himself essentially. 

 

So my head!canon is that now that he has HIS grace that makes him stronger than he was as angel possessing a human meatsuit which is why he will be able to contain Lucifer.

 

I also think he swallowed maximum dose of Plotonium....

Edited February 18, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

How is Cas able to be Lucifer's vessel? We were told back in season 5 that even in order for Sam, his true vessel to contain him without burning up he'd have to drink demon blood. Sure God remade him with a power boost but he didn't have the power of Raphael without sucking up purgatory for power and in doing so he was showing the same wear that Nick did, that implies his body was unable to handle that amount of power, the power of an archangel. So how is able to contain both graces without just exploding?

 

Castiel wasn't just the power of Raphael though when he consumed all of those purgatory souls - millions of them - plus who knows how many Leviathans. He was god level powerful. He exploded Raphael with a snap of his fingers like an archangel would do to a regular angel, and he was able to do a lot more than that. And he had to fight many of those creatures' souls including the leviathans who were warring for control of his body. It made sense to me that his vessel was breaking down under those circumstances. His body was perfectly able to hold the 50,000 soul "loan" that Crowley gave him to attack Raphael this first time (remember the unsinking of the Titanic? That was originally to repay the "loan" of the souls he borrowed from Crowley.)

 

So I think one archangel wouldn't be nearly the stress of untold millions of souls, including the very strong leviathans, on Castiel's body. And as I said in the episode thread, Sam's body doesn't even have demon blood in it any more theoretically, so even though he could probably still hold Lucifer, my guess is it wouldn't be nearly as well as Castiel's body could.

 

For me, little plotonium is necessary. ; ) I would've needed more if Sam was still able to hold Lucifer without any effects since he no longer has his Azazel blood boost or any demon blood boost at all.

Edited February 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I adopt your head!canon.  Plotonium not needed! YAY

[trxr4kids]

Cas is his own meatsuit now. He's like when Dean became his own demon. It's not through possession anymore. He is himself essentially. 

 

So my head!canon is that now that he has HIS grace that makes him stronger than he was as angel possessing a human meatsuit which is why he will be able to contain Lucifer.

 

 

 Okay I can see this, thanks everyone! If only Carver and co put as much thought into anything. Good points about the souls vs archangel grace vs god level power Awesom0400.

Edited February 18, 2016 by trxr4kids

[trxr4kids]

Is John's journal mystical/magical in some way? If I'm being generous it's about 300 pages long. The boys have been in possession of it since season 1, surely they would have memorized it by now and yet Dean whipped it out in season 9 First Born. You would think the information about the knights of hell or just how to trap to interrogate a regular demon should have been relevant enough early on to stand out in their minds, but in season 1 Devil's Trap Sam tells Bobby he's never seen anything like the key of Solomon and other symbols in some book. The First Blade should have been searched for after the Colt was stolen, but nope. Are they just really slow readers with a complete lack of literary retention or is John haunting the journal giving them crumbs of information that they need far to late for it to make a difference or maybe a witch at some point cursed it? Didn't Sam first read the journal when he was 8 or 9 ?

Edited February 23, 2016 by trxr4kids

[DittyDotDot]

Well, if you want to get all logical about it, but as I've said many times, logic and reason do not belong here! ;)

 

I can understand them not remembering all the particulars, but you're right, they should have an inkling of what's basically in there and whether it will be relevant by now.

[Omegamom]

Sam should at least have a little searchable database with a summary of each critter or object in the journal, plus some tags, plus the page...

There was info on the First Blade in John's journal? I don't remember that.

[catrox14]

 

The First Blade should have been searched for after the Colt was stolen, but nope.

 

 

John never put anything about the First Blade in his journal.

 

John only referenced a demon he hunted and exorcised, a storage locker and a T (which turned out to be for Tara, the hunter that John had a fling with). Dean and Crowley tracked down Tara who said the minion demon said something about a weapon that would kill a Knight of Hell but it was never put into John's journal.

Edited February 22, 2016 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

John never put anything about the First Blade in his journal.

 

John only referenced a demon he hunted and exorcised, a storage locker and a T (which turned out to be for Tara, the hunter that John had a fling with). Dean and Crowley tracked down Tara who said the minion demon said something about a weapon that would kill a Knight of Hell but it was never put into John's journal.

Sorry, I didn't mean John specifically wrote about the First Blade but was alluding to it being easily found if someone, anyone, followed the breadcrumbs. It only took a few seconds/minutes for Dean to connect the dots in First Born. He never pondered that information before?

Edited February 23, 2016 by trxr4kids

[Demented Daisy]

Only speaking for myself, I have read the Harry Potter books I-don't-know-how-many times.  Probably more than is healthy.  And yet, each time, I read something I never noticed before.

 

It's easy to miss info if you don't think it's important.  Only in retrospect does it gain significance.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[catrox14]

Sorry, I didn't mean John specifically wrote about the First Blade but was alluding to it being easily found if someone, anyone, followed the breadcrumbs. It only took a few seconds/minutes for Dean to connect the dots in First Born. He never pondered that information before?

 

Tara said that she and John tortured the demon and he told them about the First Blade but John thought it was bullshit. Tara pursued it on her own after parting ways with John to no avail because she didn't have the essence of kraken, which Crowley conveniently had a warehouse full of.  Oh, Crowley.

 

IMO John just didn't think it was true so he blew it off and didn't write about it.

Edited February 23, 2016 by catrox14