S00.E148: The Husbands Of River Song

[Llywela]

I heard it was the other way 'round, that Moffat didn't want to add in an "old" elements of the original show.

Moffat has actually included far, far more references to the classic show than Davies ever did. They tend to be quite subtle, though - you have to know what you're looking for to recognise them. They don't jump out at new viewers as being references. Monsters aside (he's brought back a whole bunch of those, usually in altered format), what Moffat has tended to resist are more overt elements of the past - his focus is always more on plots and throwaway trivia than on characters. He has demonstrated little or no interest in the companions of the past (any references made to them under his watch are more likely to be borderline derogatory than affectionate) and has never shown any sign of wanting to bring back any classic companions for a guest appearance, although I can think of a good few who'd have interesting stories to tell still. He sees that as Big Finish territory.

 

I can't see him wanting to revisit Susan ever, tbh. Time Lord mythology has grown and changed so much since she was on the show that any attempt at revisiting her now would be fraught with controversy.

[Crazy8]

Wow, really? Not being sarcastic. I thought the new incarnation of Who has done quite a good job of quietly incorporating the entire canon. We've seen tons of the Doctor's faces many times, as recent as the last aired episode. They even firmly included Eight as tv canon, which I thought was wonderfully generous and well deserved. Sarah Jane was a featured character. Obviously, the Master has been around. UNIT is still a part of the show, and the Brigadier is still around, though as his granddaughter. Ten mentioned him explicitly, and he was actually still "active" at the time. They showed One running away with Susan. I don't know what 'old' elements of the original show they wouldn't want to include. Ten canonically had a daughter. If Susan showed up, would it really be that big of a deal?

As someone turning up for a few episodes, absolutely not. But there's no chance of them digging that far back for a full-time companion. It's a moot point anyway because Moffat has already said the next one will be a new character.

The reason I'd be fine with a parental Doctor/companion relationship is because the writers constantly seem to be fighting the semi-romantic vibe that's been hanging around to different degrees since the start of the new run, be it intentional or not. It is the right time to overhaul that dynamic and finally do something different with it IMHO. Oh and there's little to say that his second family have to have anything to do with the first. He's been alive for a long time. It might be a good way in to explore his own childhood. He didn't exactly convincingly deny Ashildr's assertion in 'Hell Bent' that the reason he's so preoccupied with keeping Earth safe is because he's half human. I know the 'Hybrid' turned out to be him and Clara, but still.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Crazy8

[ganesh]

No, I don't think they would go back to a past companion either. I was speaking to how they have tied the current version of the show into the classic version a lot. 

[eXiled]

I'm tired of the companion arcs.  Everyone here seems to like Amy but I see her as bad as Clara in that everything was about her.  Even River is actually part of the Amy Saga (and part of the reason why I dislike her).   I just want Doctor stories.

Not I. My only feeling upon watching her last episode was relief. I never got over my initial bad impression of her as a flirty brat who merely tolerated Rory. I would have loved nothing better than for little Amelia to have never grown up (though I liked Karen G -- just not adult Amy's characterization.)

 

Clara usually doesn't bother me, though, I'll admit I stopped watching after I realized that Doctor Who was effectively All About Clara. After Twelve made a pit stop to bring her coffee and she complained about it, I was pretty much done.

 

Since Moffat is more into plot than character, I've been waiting for him to go full out and make the next companion a pre-teen. I'd actually be interested in watching that because I don't enjoy Doctor/Companion sexual tension.

Edited January 13, 2016 by eXiled

[AudienceofOne]

Since Moffat is more into plot than character,

 

 

 

Everyone says this, which is hilarious because he's TERRIBLE at plot. He's worse than RTD was and RTD regularly threw the plot out the window to make an emotional point.

 

A premise, 57 MacGuffins and a deus ex machina is not a plot.

[Llywela]

Everyone says this, which is hilarious because he's TERRIBLE at plot. He's worse than RTD was and RTD regularly threw the plot out the window to make an emotional point.

 

A premise, 57 MacGuffins and a deus ex machina is not a plot.

Oh yes, he is terrible at plot. But it is still his primary focus. Moffat's stories are completely driven by plot - and worse still, his characterisation is also driven by plot requirements, rather than defining the characters up-front and then allowing that characterisation to drive the story. He seems to think of plot and story (and even character) as one and the same thing, which...it isn't. Or shouldn't be.

[ganesh]

He's got good ideas for sure. I do not doubt his commitment to the show. I mean, I don't think anyone would argue that Blink isn't a classic, but fully forming that into a real story, well, he needs some help in that regard. 

[alias1]

Blink is a great example of his brilliance at the one off idea, which he should never be allowed to carry over into any kind of arc.  (And I am looking at you, River!)  Moffat is without question one of the biggest fans of Doctor Who.  I wish he would stop trying to outdo everything that's ever been done.

[Crazy8]

*Sighs* I still love Moffat. I know there are plot holes a mile wide here and there, but I turned from a casual viewer into a proper fan during his era and that was because of his writing and showrunning. For me, his real skill has always been the ability to write quirky, but believable dialogue that enriches the characters, which is where RTD always fell down IMHO. (In fact I have issues with RTD's writing outside of Doctor Who in general, but that's another story.) Whilst I recognise that his time on the show is almost definitely winding down, I think people are possibly in for a shock after he leaves if they don't pick the right replacement. In industry terms, this show really is a beast to wrangle. There's nothing like it in relation to balancing budgetary pressures, fan expectations and attempting to preserve it as the iconic piece of television that it is.

 

I'm not hitting out at people who don't like Moffat either. Sometimes you gel with a person's style of doing things, and sometimes you don't. I do however think there's a major possibility that a misstep over who they employ next could make those who detest him actually long for the Moffat era eventually. In fact, I think they're going to be hard pressed to find his replacement at all. There are very few writers with his experience and absolutely unrelenting love of the show out there who'd be prepared to commit to it and take on the pressures it brings with it. 

[ganesh]

I don't dislike him, but I just think the smaller stories have been the better overall, and I don't see why seemingly *everything* has to be fate of the universe and then last minute save. Something like van Gogh was a great story for Doctor Who. 

[Llywela]

I think people are possibly in for a shock after he leaves if they don't pick the right replacement. In industry terms, this show really is a beast to wrangle. There's nothing like it in relation to balancing budgetary pressures, fan expectations and attempting to preserve it as the iconic piece of television that it is.

I'm looking forward to Moffat's departure and have been for a long time now, but I agree with you about it being a dangerous time for the show. Whoever comes next might just be fantastic...but there's also a very good possibility that they'll be awful. Whoever they are, I do hope they'll at least be different. The show desperately needs a fresh take, at this point.

 

And I've got to say, I don't agree about Moffat's dialogue. I find that the constant quirky banter makes every character sound the same, and rarely feels natural to me. I live in this country and that...isn't how real people talk. A lot of shows like to employ a house style of that kind, but I prefer it when each character has their own distinct and unique voice. It's one of the things that makes a lot of his characters unbelievable to me - I can feel their personalities being twisted to support the house style of dialogue, rather than being given distinct voices of their own to support the characterisation.

 

And I agree with ganesh about preferring smaller scale, more intimate stories over the crash bang epics Moffat favours (but isn't actually all that good at).

 

At the end of the day, a lot of it really is a matter of personal taste. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next.

[Crazy8]

My gut feeling is that there might even be a long hiatus that lasts a few years after Moffat goes. There's a lot of change going on at the BBC at the moment and it's bound to signal more budget constraints, in spite of this being a flagship show. Frankly, whoever takes it on next is either going to have to have nerves of steel, or they're being completely naive. Either way, I'm convinced that if they employ an American showrunner that'll be the final nail in the coffin.

 

 

And I've got to say, I don't agree about Moffat's dialogue. I find that the constant quirky banter makes every character sound the same, and rarely feels natural to me. I live in this country and that...isn't how real people talk. A lot of shows like to employ a house style of that kind, but I prefer it when each character has their own distinct and unique voice. It's one of the things that makes a lot of his characters unbelievable to me - I can feel their personalities being twisted to support the house style of dialogue, rather than being given distinct voices of their own to support the characterisation.

 

Oh I never thought he was aiming for naturalism. That's not what I meant to say. For the World they inhabit, I think Moffat nails the character's voices, but like you said, it's a matter of personal taste. I think his 'style' is down to his sitcom background anyway. 

 

Personally, I thought the biggest problem with Series 9 was the over-reliance on two-parters. This Christmas Special demonstrated how much tighter a storyline can be if it's not stretched out unnecessarily over two episodes. Glad to hear they're not going there again in Series 10.

[whoknowswho]

Place me in the "I totally love River" category--but I wouldn't want a steady diet of her.  She has too strong a personality as a personality--not that that's a bad thing, but she is larger than life.   I adore her, and for many reasons enjoyed the Christmas special this year more than most of the others.  I think she's  has played well with all the Doctors she's met.  I'm also a fan of 10, and 11--Matt because he reintroduced me to Doctor Who, so his series and how he played it are always my favorites.   I wish River's death wasn't permanent in the Library, but it is what it is. I don't think it will ever be changed.

 

As a show--this one special was to me the best of Capaldi's run. For one-- it was Clara free. I have not enjoyed the past few seasons, despite loving PC. He's a bloody good actor with the best eyebrows in show business.  :)  This episode was fun--funny, silly, bittersweet and sad all rolled into one. A good episode. I really enjoyed it.

[Crazy8]

Place me in the "I totally love River" category--but I wouldn't want a steady diet of her.  She has too strong a personality as a personality--not that that's a bad thing, but she is larger than life.   I adore her, and for many reasons enjoyed the Christmas special this year more than most of the others.  I think she's  has played well with all the Doctors she's met.  I'm also a fan of 10, and 11--Matt because he reintroduced me to Doctor Who, so his series and how he played it are always my favorites.   I wish River's death wasn't permanent in the Library, but it is what it is. I don't think it will ever be changed.

I never was one for the idea of having River as a full-time companion. You can have too much of a good thing. I'm expecting something big for when Moffat leaves though and that'll probably include returning characters. I'll be surprised if that doesn't include River in some way, shape or form. No idea if there'll be a Library fix-it, but let's face it, he can't help himself when it comes to her. Personally, I'm fine with that, as great an ending for her as this episode was. 

 

My friend had exactly the same problem with the last 2 seasons. Didn't gel with Capaldi at all, and then realised that the problem was actually Clara after this Christmas Special aired. 

[Bruinsfan]

I loved Capaldi at first sight (crusty older Doctors like William Hartnell's and Jon Petwee's are my preference), but the show quickly got bogged down by mediocre plots and The Impossible Albatross. It was always clear to me that the casting of the title role was not among Season 8 & 9's problems.