S05.E12: A False Glimmer

[jjj]

Just finished the holiday binge watch of the season:

He said they wouldn't renew her contract. Düring has been giving Carrie the hairy eyeball all season, IMO, and I think we were meant to understand he was trying to make Jonas dump her with the references to her mental illness etc. -- so that he could have her for herself.

As you noted in the wonderfully titled "Ich bin ein Cockblocker," Düring's real point in the convo with Jonas was to ensure that Düring had Carrie to himself.  That "don't let this affect your personal relationship with her" was corporatespeak for "if you value your career, get away from her". 

 

At some point after Quinn was shot, I started to wonder why he was still in the plot, and it seems to boil down to him being the bread crumb in the sarin vault that led Carrie back to the doctor and thus to the Bibi team apartment.  I really don't think they have killed him off, but have left their options open.  If Rupert Friend has a filming conflict for next season, Quinn can spend the season recuperating in one of the many spa ("Bad") towns in Germany (taking treatment at the spa at Bad Assery), on hold until he can return to action.  He had no business surviving most of what happened to him this episode, so why not the brain hemorrhage, also? 

 

What was the timeline for this episode?  It seems to be maybe three weeks tops, from start to finish.  We know it was nine days from the shooting to Carrie finally getting Alison in custody, then having time to find Quinn.  That means that in nine days, he recovered, met with Dar, went on the expedition "to Syria" (at least two days to the chemical site, back and forth), was tied up and basically not nourished except for a few sips of water once he was back at the sarin lab, poisoned (on the same day that Carrie left to look for him, so the ninth day after the shooting?).  So he was in very bad shape even before the sarin experiment.  At the start of this season, Carrie had a week or so of plot before seeing Quinn (three days until the trip with Düring), then a couple of days to learn she was a target, shipped off her daughter, and had her off-meds (three-day?) episode in the woods.  So, a week to ten days until the encounter with Quinn, then the nine post-shooting days, then another week post-tunnel.  Three to four weeks since she had seen her daughter.  It seemed odd to see her return to the Jonas apartment, but it had only been 10-14 days since she had left with Frannie.  She was packing when last seen there, post-Jason-reunion, but it seemed like she was staying at a Düring Residenz Inn by the time of the "proposal". 

Edited January 3, 2016 by jjj

[John Potts]

I was glad that, for once, a Season of Homeland ended on an unambiguous win for the good guys (or rather, protagonists - it's hard to see them as "good"). I don't have a problem with "Bad Guy Wins" in general, it just seemed that they were ALWAYS winning on Homeland (successfully inserting Brodie into the government, blowing up the CIA, taking over Pakistan and so on), but this time the terrorists were foiled, the mole captured ("With extreme prejudice"!) and they even got to turn a senior SVR agent. Nice toknow that democracy's "Secret Warriors" can actually do things right on occasion!

 

ElectricBoogaloo I was convinced that the last half of the episode was going to be revealed to be a dream

 

I was wondering that, too, but if they were going to they'd have had Carrie waking up before the end of the episode. I'm OK with both Carrie's finding religion (there's a saying "When people lose their faith, they don't stop believing in anything: they start believing in everything!": not factually true, but it's certainly the case that people can lose one faith - the CIA in Carrie's case - and become equally partisan for another - Catholicism here). I'm glad she didn't go back to the CIA, no matter what Saul said (how is HE - or Dar, for that matter! - keeping his job given they got thoroughly played by Allison, though I guess turning Krupin mitigates that somewhat). Quinn's end (I think Carrie DID intend to euthanize him, but saw the sudden sunlight as "Divine Intervention" and changed her mind) was believable given his job, even if I didn't want to see it. It seems impossible to imagine him ever getting his job back with the CIA given his brain damage (then again, how many times has Carrie been fired & re-hired?), I hope it's more like Carrie's been in this Season: they need him due to a terrorist attack that links to something in his past.

 

beeble  We only saw Astrid working and trying to reset the world order. I hope she comes back next season. In fact, why not make the whole series about her?

 

I liked that she was quietly competent (and not above getting her hands somewhat dirty - forcing Laura to besmirch the guy who'd committed suicide) without being completely unfeeling. Maybe we could concentrate next Season on the BND v SVR since I loved (in a "loved to hate" way) the SVR. I was punching the air (OK, not really) when her response to Allison going "This place is for human trafficking!" was "Your point being...?" because spies are not nice people and it's not as if Allison doesn't have blood on her hands.

 

Sarah D Bunting (from the Recap) strictly speaking, Laura's right on the merits and Astrid's a bad guy, but between Nina Hoss's delightfully crisp performance as Astrid and the unrelenting self-righteousness of Laura's dialogue, that's not how it lands

 

I loved that too. While politically I'm absolutely on Laura's side, they succeeded in making me hate her character (hopefully that was the intention!) while loving characters like Astrid & the Bitch Queen of the SVR (did we ever learn her name!?) who while they were violating rights all over the place, were far easier to cheer for!

[jjj]

. I was punching the air (OK, not really) when her response to Allison going "This place is for human trafficking!" was "Your point being...?" because spies are not nice people and it's not as if Allison doesn't have blood on her hands.

Carrie: "You blew up the f--king plane and killed a family!"

Allison:  "Your point being...?"

No indeed, Allison does not hold the moral high ground that allows her to look down her nose at human trafficking. 

[Milburn Stone]

I liked that [Astrid] was quietly competent (and not above getting her hands somewhat dirty - forcing Laura to besmirch the guy who'd committed suicide)...

 

Most deliciously, not only did she force Laura to recant, she forced her to do something absolutely despicable and morally repugnant that violated every fibre in her holier-than-thou body. Go Astrid!

 

All in all it might have been the best hour I've ever seen of anything. By the time it was over I couldn't believe that this very same episode had started with Carrie in the tunnel foiling the attack. So much happened after that, the attack-foiling felt like it happened 3 episodes ago.

[paramitch]

I loved this episode for lots of reasons, not least that we got to see Carrie as cool and competent, foiling the terrorists in a smart and believable way that was nevertheless very heroic (and at the top of the episode!). I always love the way Carrie is utterly willing to disregard her own safety that way. I also loved the scene right after, with Saul, as Claire Danes just looked so believably exhausted and wrecked. The circles under Carrie's eyes, the weariness, it all felt very real to me, and I like that Danes is consistently willing to abandon vanity for performance in those ways (something that's also present in her trademark 'ugly cry,' which I've always loved about her).

 

To me, it played out more like Carrie was getting ready to end things, and then the room was suddenly bathed in light and she took that as some sign and was rethinking going through with it?

 

This was how I saw the scene as well. I'm hopeful that Quinn could come back from this; I mean, Rupert Friend really makes the show for me. I'd probably still watch without him but I'd be really unhappy about it. And speaking personally, I've seen a relative recover firsthand from significant brain trauma -- the brain's recovery capabilities are pretty amazing. The doctor was pessimistic but I felt there was still hope remaining there.

 

I think the burst of sun made Carrie rethink her plan. It felt pretty organic although sad that she knew Quinn wouldn't want to be a vegetable for the rest of his life. Somehow I think he might survive with her caring for him until he's recovered enough to do some sort of consultancy work. Just enough to still feel relevant.

Not sure what to make of Otto's very non romantic gesture. But now it makes sense why he would give Carrie anything she asked for.

 

Otto's proposal to Carrie made so much sense to me though. All season long, he's acted like he was one step away from planting one on her so this just confirmed all the subtext I'd always seen in his scenes with her. And yet it was odd how cold it was, how impersonal. You'd think he'd have at least tried to kiss her (finally). But I definitely don't want her to choose him. Although I think he'd make an interesting antagonist next season in other ways.

 

Carrie hasn't gone through with it, and I don't think she will.  Throughout the season we saw her practicing Catholicism, in a way that didn't seem like a show staged for herself, like whistling in the dark  -- not like her family with Jonas and Frannie, or forsaking intelligence work. Throughout the season she's confronted having "so much blood on her hands."  She saw light, finally.  I think here, she'll live with not knowing what comes next, for her and for Peter.

 

I like this and felt this in the final scenes as well. I'm not religious myself, but I like the stability and self-knowledge it appears to have given Carrie. I liked the unobtrusive way it was used here as well. It didn't feel smarmy or forced, but like a simple attempt by Carrie for peace and comfort.

 

This series seems to make Carries love life drive her professional life. She was probably most competent when she didn't have any deep attachments, instead letting some steam out by slipping into a black cocktail dress for the night, then going home for a quick change, before going into Langley.

Then she fell hard for a terrorist of all things and she's been a mess since. Next guy up was a CIA assasin and then some poor naive Pakistani boy.

She got dumped by the German hunk and now is contemplating a wealthy philanthropist with shady family history.

 

I do think her storyline with Quinn has included a lot of romantic elements and potentials, but I don't agree that Carrie's love life drives the Homeland storylines (at least, not after Brody). She didn't actually get with Quinn, and her 'romance' with Aayan was solely about the mission. So she's basically had two active romances over 5 years -- Brody and the German guy here. 

 

I do think the early show was focused on Carrie and Brody, but I've really liked the way the past two seasons have let that go. While I liked the Brody stuff, I actually think the show is stronger and more interesting as an ensemble piece.

 

Quinn is not necessarily dead. The machine he was hooked up to was showing stable life signs. After that, all Carrie did was take off the pulse monitor from his finger, which would have no effect on Quinn. The doctor said that there was still a chance of normal recovery, though slight. The glimmer of light that suddenly appeared could have persuaded Carrie not to go through with the euthanasia. He COULD be back next season in full capacity.

 

I'm really hoping you're right.

 

That's what I thought as well.  The light made her think that he had a chance. 

 

Also, on ew.com they mentioned that during the episode, Showtime tweeted  #PrayforQuinn, so that makes me think he's not going to die.  They probably saw the outrage at GoT killing Jon Snow and how it rallied all the fans. 

 

Quinn's back story is almost as tragic as his life in the CIA.  

 

If Quinn is back next season, I want him to have whatever counts for a fun plotline on "Homeland." No more beatings, shootings, gassings or suicide attempts! I want to see Quinn, like, riding unicorns, eating ice cream, or just running around being an impossibly handsome and graceful badass. The poor guy deserves a break.

 

He said they wouldn't renew her contract. Düring has been giving Carrie the hairy eyeball all season, IMO, and I think we were meant to understand he was trying to make Jonas dump her with the references to her mental illness etc. -- so that he could have her for herself. I think as early as the 2nd or 3rd episode I noted in my coverage that he called Carrie "remarkable" in a way that seemed skeevy. So this was not a surprise to me.

 

It was, however, revolting.

 

I agree with all of this -- I've always felt that During was only half a step from throwing himself at Carrie in every one of their scenes (it's just the way the actor plays it), so it was interesting to see that, in retrospect, even his 'tanking' Carrie professionally was simply one more way to get her for himself.

 

1)  I am quite sure that the life of a CIA operative is lonely, dangerous and that death could be around every corner.  Quinn was placed at the corner of STUPID  and RIDICULOUS with the Sarin gas which gives me a glimmer of hope that we may see Quinn in some capacity next Season. There were no exploding body parts or a body riddled with bullets like Allison.

2) I think Carrie will entertain During's weird proposal and stumble upon a nefarious plot spearheaded by During and then have to enlist Saul's help.  This would bring back key players, especially the amazing Astrid.

3)  Carrie wants normal but it is never going to happen.  She will have to find a 'Carrie normal' that uses her talent within the Intelligence world.

4)  In my heart of hearts, I hope, in episode 10 that Carrie rolls over in bed to face Quinn.  They get up, have breakfast with Frannie, and then proceed to discuss a case as co-analyst and then send their team on a mission.  Would Quinn be 100%?  No.  There would have to be residual damage but he can function nicely.  I'd like this ending for Carrie and Quinn.  It could be their new normal and a decent ending for the series.Hey!!...... I can live with hope!

 

Great ideas, and I fully support your ideas for next season in every way. I definitely think During will be back, as will (probably) Numan. And there's just something about During that feels malevolent to me. I know he's supposed to be a big-time philanthropist but he never actually acts like one. He always seemed to come across like someone with creepy ulterior motives. Even if he did help Saul that one time... so who knows.

 

Had to wait until Monday to see finale and it was killing me. But I was so impressed that 8 minutes in, the U Bahn bomb situation was wrapped up instead of stretching us out tick tock, tick tock. Delighted we had about an hour to deal with all the other open questions.

 

I wanted more from Allison, wanted to see her face fall as it dawned she had no dacha, no future and, the fear of us baby boomers, no retirement in play. But ok, stuffed into the trunk compartment and riddled with bullets was fine.

 

Re Krupkin, I don't agree that he was absurd. It made sense to me that once he realized Saul was more likely right that he had been abandoned by Russia (they couldn't know for sure) he would give up the Allison escape route for Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Seems only Saul deluded himself that Allison cared.

 

(snipped for space)

Next season, I will be glad to welcome Quinn, Quinn on heavy duty Drugs or Ghost of Quinn, but not dead Quinn. That would be unbearable.

 

I felt bad for poor Miranda Otto, especially after a sensational performance all season as Allison, that her final scene was simply of her climbing into the trunk (well, that and the "dead Allison" shot). It would have been interesting to see her dawning realization... and yet, at the same time, I do think we saw something of that in the human trafficking scene, when she was just sitting there waiting with all those awful people. You could see in her face that this was what she had done to herself and there was very little way out now. I loved Otto's performance this season. 

 

Meanwhile, I really liked that scene with Krupkin and Saul. Saul is always at his best in these moments, when he manages to speak truthfully and openly to people and without gameplay, yet he still manages to get them to spill their secrets. To me the entire scene was believable because Saul was so absolutely believable. Krupkin saw that Saul was -- oddly, in a way -- being respectful and responded in kind.

 

Last but not least, count me in for any return for Quinn they want to give us next season. While I'd prefer healthy recovered/recovering Badass Secret Agent Quinn, I will also take Dream Quinn, Snarky Spirit Quinn, Brain Tumor Vision Quinn, or Ghost Quinn. As long as Quinn comes back. Sniffle.

Edited January 6, 2016 by paramitch

[teddysmom]

If Quinn is back next season, I want him to have whatever counts for a fun plotline on "Homeland." No more beatings, shootings, gassings or suicide attempts! I want to see Quinn, like, riding unicorns, eating ice cream, or just running around being an impossibly handsome and graceful badass. The poor guy deserves a break.

 

I volunteer as tribute!!! I will happily do anything I can to cheer up Quinn.  

[jjj]

If they really intended to kill off Quinn, he would have been dispatched.  As I noted above, this ending leave all options open, including the actor having a year off while his character is off recuperating; or returning right away.  It is television, so his recovery does not need to match research results in medical journals!

 

I was not a bit surprised at the proposal from During -- although if I were Carrie, I would clarify whether he intends the "partnership" to be personal or professional.  He has been shown all along to be very analytical, with emotions completely in check.  After almost being killed, with a wild ride through a gunfire zone, he calmly told Carrie, "you saved my life, and I will remember this."  Who does that!?  (People I know, who are scientists.)  I'd be a puddle after something like that rescue.  

[Sue Davis]

Quinn: Carrie and Saul's storyline was not enough to carry the show this year. without Astrid and Quinn's roles, there was no depth of acting. The "main" chapters rode on their laurels from past seasons. Moreover, if the writers believed that Quinn was no longer necessary, they should have sent him off In glory and with finality like they did Brody. If the writing and acting continue on in Season 6, as it was in Season 5, the law of diminishing returns is going to provide you with a very sharp thud in the stomach. You offered drivel this year and it is beneath the dignity of the show. I have gotten to the point that Dar, especially, and Saul and really really Carrie are just not worth the week to week wait. There is no joy in this show. I have to think of that lack of joy for months....until the Fall! It is not worth it. You've given me nothing to hold on to except insipid Carrie, confused Saul, and dummy Dar.

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎12‎.‎2015 at 6:35 AM, numbnut said:

On ‎20‎.‎12‎.‎2015 at 9:16 PM, henripootel said:

 

I'm gonna have to disagree, if only for the fact that Krupin was a dedicated Russian agent and Allison a co-opted agent of a foreign power.  I'd agree that Krupin's future was not so shiny bright after the debacle with Allison but Krupin saw all this the moment he realized Allison had been compromised, and he went along with her hair-brained scheme anyway.  Frau Farbissina made no bones about it with Allison - she was blown and would never, ever be trusted by either side no matter what happened next.  

 

So why did Krupin even pretend to go along?  We know the real answer - cuz it was in the script.  But the writers have a pro like Krupin commit to a course of action he knew would yield nothing, and might (and did) end up with him actually betraying his country, at least some, by telling Saul how to find Allison.  The Russians had gone to some expense to spirit her out of Germany so clearly they wanted her alive, and one of the few people who could have told them where to find her was in CIA custody.  Now Krupin's really fucked.

 

So Krupin fucked his career for no particular reason (even when he knew better) and committed treason for no particular reason (other than to give Saul a win).  At any time, all he had to do was stop cooperating and he'd have eventually been sent home, pension, if not career, intact.  He can't go home now but it's all on account of his being colossally, unaccountably stupid.  

 

And not for nothing, but no way would Saul be cleared for killing Allison if he could just as easily have captured her alive.  First thing CIA'd want from Allison is to know the extent of her betrayal, and this would completely outweigh any vengeance thing Saul had going.   It's also be hard for Saul to claim that Allison was killed as an inevitable part of trying to get her out of Russian hands.  They had the car stopped, nobody knew, and they didn't even try to take anyone alive, including the Russians, which is another can of worms - we don't usually kill theirs unnecessarily, they don't kill ours.  Even so, in no way did they have to kill Allison, not when they can just as easily have her in a small bunker for the next couple of years answering questions over and over.  

 

I agree.

Saul didn't act like a professional intelligence officer ruled by reason -  it would be indeed be vital to have Allison answer questions after questions for years (Krupin can't know all). But Saul chose to take revenge on Allison - but what had she actually done what Saul hadn't done themselves? Betrayal belongs to the espionage and Saul was a master to make people to betray their cause and country. 

Saul should rather have been mad on himself for being so gullible.

 However, I can think one reason why Allison should have been killed: she made Saul and Dar look as fools and, in order not to endanger they career, they probably tried to bury the truth about Allison's betrayal. The official truth will be just the lie she told them: that Krupin was her source.  

[henripootel]

37 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

However, I can think one reason why Allison should have been killed: she made Saul and Dar look as fools and, in order not to endanger they career, they probably tried to bury the truth about Allison's betrayal. The official truth will be just the lie she told them: that Krupin was her source.  

If only Saul and Dar knew the truth about Allison, maybe they might try to cover it up.  It'd be colossally stupid and unprofessional because it'd cut off any investigation into missions compromised by Allison, all merely to save themselves embarrassment. But WAY too many people know the truth about Allison's betrayal.  If Saul and Dar tried to bury the truth, it's to prison they'd e a-going.  No fucking way everyone who knows would go along with the deception just to save Saul and Dar some face, not with their own careers and liberty on the line.  It absolutely would come out eventually, then they all go to prison.  Nope, not gonna happen.

Now, this doesn't mean that the official CIA story won't be that Allison died a hero, but that's a different kettle of fish.  I mean the Russians know the truth but they're not gonna tell anyone, why should they?  If Krupin really did turn for real, Russia's not gonna want that splashed around either.  But CIA will of course know the real truth, that Allison was a traitor and that Saul's actions deprived them of the opportunity to lock her up in a dark cell somewhere.  Saul's finished professionally, and so is Dar.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by henripootel

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, henripootel said:

If only Saul and Dar knew the truth about Allison, maybe they might try to cover it up.  It'd be colossally stupid and unprofessional because it'd cut off any investigation into missions compromised by Allison, all merely to save themselves embarrassment. But WAY too many people know the truth about Allison's betrayal.  If Saul and Dar tried to bury the truth, it's to prison they'd e a-going.  No fucking way everyone who knows would go along with the deception just to save Saul and Dar some face, not with their own careers and liberty on the line.  It absolutely would come out eventually, then they all go to prison.  Nope, not gonna happen.

Now, this doesn't mean that the official CIA story won't be that Allison died a hero, but that's a different kettle of fish.  I mean the Russians know the truth but they're not gonna tell anyone, why should they?  If Krupin really did turn for real, Russia's not gonna want that splashed around either.  But CIA will of course know the real truth, that Allison was a traitor and that Saul's actions deprived them of the opportunity to lock her up in a dark cell somewhere.  Saul's finished professionally, and so is Dar.  

Your reasoning convince me - except in one point: that Saul and Dar are finished professionally. Irl they would be but Homeland is a show and it can't abandon all old faces save Carrie.

That reminds me, irl Carrie would have been finished professionally many times - no organization would tolerate a person who refuses to follow the orders.  

[henripootel]

20 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Your reasoning convince me - except in one point: that Saul and Dar are finished professionally. Irl they would be but Homeland is a show and it can't abandon all old faces save Carrie.

Oh, I know.  It's just a rhetorical device to highlight how shows like this bend reality to the writers' needs.  Another example: Quinn is exposed to sarin gas.  Shot or no shot, Quinn is dead.  But of course he isn't, just ... mostly dead.

[Roseanna]

On ‎20‎.‎12‎.‎2015 at 5:15 AM, wevel said:

Wow, I guess I'm in the corner alone who still sees the heart of the show as the Carrie-Saul relationship. 

If so, there should be a (symbolical) "murder of the father" in order to show that Carrie had outgrown her father figure. He still treats her like she was still her stat pupil.

One thing that was so great in the Danish serie Borgen was just that the female state minister fired her mentor when she had to chose abandoning him or let her government collapse - she really took power in her own hands and dared to do tough decisions, just as he had advised her. They worked together later, though, and had some of their old friendship back, but there was no more any doubt who was the boss.