Debra: Shrill Harpy or Saint (or Something Else?)

[Guest]

So in looking at this thread, I was thinking "If I were trying to prove my point that Debra is a 'shrill harpy,' what 5 episodes would I choose as proof?"

For me, it would be:

1) The Christmas Picture

2) Superbowl

3) Lateness

4) Frank Paints the House

5) The Family Bed

 

Then "If I were trying to prove that Debra is a saint, which episodes would I choose?"

1) Marie's Meatballs

2) Debra Makes Something Good

3) PT&A

4) Good Girls

5) The Checkbook

 

Anyone else want to play?  

[ByTor]

I'm in!

Harpy:

1) Super Bowl

2) T-Ball

3) Sweet Charity

4) Bad Moon Rising

5) The Christmas Picture

Honorable Mention to Standard Deviation, I am not a fan of "intellectually superior" Debra.

 

Saint:

1) Turkey or Fish

2) The Ingrate

3) The Tenth Anniversary

4) Italy

5) Seasons Greetings

Honorable Mention: A Vote for Debra

[Guest]

Oh, I agree with all your choices too. This is a tough one! Except Seasons Greetings I feel was a pretty neutral episode- none of the main characters were bad.

[ByTor]

20 minutes ago, deaja said:

Oh, I agree with all your choices too. This is a tough one! Except Seasons Greetings I feel was a pretty neutral episode- none of the main characters were bad.

Well, Marie did smack Debra in the face with a door a couple times :)  The reason I chose this episode is because Marie was so condescending toward Debra in the beginning, yet Debra immediately tried to help Marie feel better by helping her write the letter.  And then she had to put up with Ray & Robert doing their whiny whining.

@deaja, just curious, how come Debra annoyed you in Frank Paints the House?  Frank is the one I wanted to slap in that one :)

[CherryAmes]

1 minute ago, ByTor said:

The reason I chose this episode is because Marie was so condescending toward Debra in the beginning

Yep, one of Marie's trademark lines when Debra thanks her for looking after the kids because of her emergency run to the dentist (something llike) "It's nice that you can take all this time for yourself".

[ByTor]

Just now, CherryAmes said:

Yep, one of Marie's trademark lines when Debra thanks her for looking after the kids because of her emergency run to the dentist (something llike) "It's nice that you can take all this time for yourself".

And then I liked Debra's "I know, I know, I forgot the kids.  Are you going to put THAT in your letter?"

[WildStyle]

Harpy or Bratty

1. Young Girl

2. Meant to Be

3.  High School

4. Boob Job

5. Lateness

She was way to self-righteous in the first 2, then bragging on herself like she deserves some kind of medal for her "accomplishments" because Robert does stuff she claims she's never done. Bravo Debra...

3. Ray didn't wanna go to his HS reunion, and Debra won't let it rest until she's dragged him there because she just had to see that part of his life. Then afterwards, Ray clearly wasn't happy and Debra resorts to calling him a geek and teasing him the duration of the episode as a dork.   

4. She was just goading Ray into a fight here and making a federal case of guys liking women with big breasts. Then accusing Ray of lying to her for 10 years whenever he said she looked good. Then her saying she has working breasts, and the audience cheering like she made a Presidential speech was eye-rolling.

5. She & Ray made a clear-cut deal about when they would leave. She was dressed and ready, then just had to go back and do that one last curl in her hair when she was already down to 2 min. So when Ray leaves, then she gets pissed off.  

 

Saint

1. Whose Side Are You On -Ray was at his most hate-able for me in this episode. I haven't even watched it three times. It's one I avoid. And I think Debra was too nice when she actually apologized to him.

2. Debra's Work Out -Once again, Ray was annoying. And Debra handled it much nicer than I would've lol

3. Italy -She was very understanding of Ray harming her when they were out. lol She was just happy to be spending time with him.

4. Fun with Debra -She wanted to spend time with him, and spend the day golfing. It's something she hates, but was willing to do because he likes it. Then Ray accuses her of ruining golf for him because he can't enjoy it if he's gotta do it with her. 

5. The Ingrate. She was very nice about that. What bonehead mentions his entire family, yet forgets the woman he's married to and just had sex with the previous night.

Edited January 5, 2018 by WildStyle

[CherryAmes]

11 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

1. Whose Side Are You On -Ray was at his most hate-able for me in this episode. I haven't even watched it three times. It's one I avoid. And I think Debra was too nice when she actually apologized to him.

Which episode is this one?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

Which episode is this one?

She is making bets against Ray with the kids (for me this would definitely go in the Harpy category except Ray took things too far insulting her).  Things like "Will Daddy notice Mommy's haircut?" "Will Daddy be home when he says?"  Both of them are awful in that one, to me. 

[WildStyle]

26 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

Which episode is this one?

It was the one where Ray comes home. Debra & the kids are just finishing dinner. Ally says she likes Debra's new haircut, and asks if Ray will notice. Then they bet on it. The kids bet he won't notice, and he doesn't.

 

When Ray finds out, he accuses Debra of turning his kids against him. Then says her hair is junky. Then says that Marie turned him & Robert against Frank, and every bad thing they think about him is Marie's fault. And that Debra is exactly the same. And he's gonna go apologize to Frank. Then ranting to Frank about "wives" making the kids think they're bad fathers.  Marie asks if he's taking Frank's side, and Ray says he's not on anyone's side, because he's the son. But he was clearly on Frank's side. Like this exchange. 

Marie "I spent the best years of my life trying to get an ounce of compassion from this man. And he gave me nothing."

Ray "Don't tell me! Tell him!"

Marie "You gave me nothing Frank!"

Frank "Thanks a lot Ray"

Ray "Just leave him alone, ma."

So he tells Marie to go to Frank with her complaints, then when she does, he sticks up for Frank and tells her to back off. How is he not sticking up for Frank, and taking his side?

 

Debra didn't seem to have any manipulative or covert agenda there. But Ray blew it way out of proportion. Deep down, I think he knows he's a bad father. He wants the kids to automatically adore him without having to earn it. He spends no time with them, and even admits they bore him. But if someone points it out, or seems more popular, they become public enemy #1 for why his kids aren't impressed with him. He was the same way in Say Uncle.  But when Ray is insecure about something, he lashes out at the other people as the problem.

Edited January 5, 2018 by WildStyle

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

Debra didn't seem to have any manipulative or covert agenda there

She didn't have an agenda, but I think it is pretty low to routinely bad mouth your husband to your kids.  If it were a one time thing, it happens. But the kids listed the bets they make like it goes on all the time. 

Ray certainly isn't father of the year, but I don't think he dislikes spending time with his kids that much, but this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

[CherryAmes]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

She didn't have an agenda, but I think it is pretty low to routinely bad mouth your husband to your kids. 

This was also one of those "out of nowhere" plot devices that annoys me in any show.  In ELR we have "Robert is poor to the point where it's like he's destitute"; we have "Debra is chronically late"; we have "Debra bad mouths Ray to the kids" and it's all done and dusted in a single episode.  I know it's a sitcom and sitcoms have a bad track record for continuity but ELR was usually pretty good - certainly better than most - so when they shoehorn something into one episode and try and make it seem like it's an ongoing issue that just drives me nuts!

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

This was also one of those "out of nowhere" plot devices that annoys me in any show.  In ELR we have "Robert is poor to the point where it's like he's destitute"; we have "Debra is chronically late"; we have "Debra bad mouths Ray to the kids" and it's all done and dusted in a single episode.  I know it's a sitcom and sitcoms have a bad track record for continuity but ELR was usually pretty good - certainly better than most - so when they shoehorn something into one episode and try and make it seem like it's an ongoing issue that just drives me nuts!

I think this is why I don't really like or dislike any character too much. They all had episodes where they look terrible, and all have episodes they look good.  They were changed as needed to suit the writer's needs for a particular episode.  I think that's also why I prefer episodes where they don't seem to be portraying either side as "right." I think overall the writers did a better job than many on keeping gray areas in there.  Like in the episode where Ray gets Robert to fake incompetence at wedding planning and then at the end you find out Debra has been pretending not to be able to do stuff for Ray.... like the whole episode it is the guys who are awful, but at the end you see Debra is no angel. And even in that one, you get the impression Ray came up with his plan because Debra wanted him to do something, but then wanted to micromanage how it was done - which is something we see repeated throughout the episodes at different times.

[Guest]

On 1/5/2018 at 1:10 PM, ByTor said:

 

@deaja, just curious, how come Debra annoyed you in Frank Paints the House?  Frank is the one I wanted to slap in that one :)

I hate Frank and Marie in that one. But Debra annoys me because first with the initial house painting, Ray wants to stop it, and she insists they let Frank continue and then harangues Ray into helping. On his planned day off. Then she won’t stay on his side on the color fiasco- it wouldn’t bother me so much if she didn’t freak out whenever she felt Ray didn’t support her vs his family. I can’t imagine how the reaction would be if Debra planned on relaxing with the family, Marie came over to do a huge cleaning project, and Ray lectures Debra on why she should help and then sided with Marie on details of how it was done. 

This is why I don’t watch this episode. I only like “needs another coat” at the end. ;)

[ShadowSixx]

On 12/29/2017 at 8:00 AM, deaja said:

Debra was so far out of line in the Christmas picture episode that I hate her there.  It's an established pattern that they rotate years of who they celebrate Christmas with. She decides she wants to change it.  Ray doesn't want to change it.  Rather than work it out between the two of them, she involves Marie in it and Ray doesn't back her up because he doesn't want to do it.  She acts like she should get to change their routine just because she wants to without considering anyone else's feelings or trying to find any compromise (visiting her parents early on the 24th, etc.).  Then because she doesn't get her way, she ruins something that was supposed to be special for the family.  She undermines her husband (something she always accuses Ray of doing to her) and ruins the gift just because she didn't get her way and she's a petulant bitch.

Everybody except Ray & the Kids were jackasses in that episode. Debra for blindsiding Ray with bringing her parents and putting Ray on the spot to vote her way in the new Christmas tradition she wanted to do. She didn't talk to Ray privately about doing it. I mean I wouldn't want to spend the holidays driving back and forth either. Robert for just being an ass because Amy isn't in the picture even though at that time she wasn't married to Robert and Ray didn't care if she was in the picture or not. Frank for just being mean to Lois and Warren when Lois and Warren didn't do anything but show up. Marie for just being Marie. They all seem to miss the point that the gift was for Marie, so it should be how she wants it done. Debra didn't get that, Robert refused to change his shirt for his own mother. 

 

As far as the Super Bowl, Debra had to have known that Ray's main focus was going to be the Super Bowl and golfing not being romantic and giving Debra a dream trip where they get to do things together as a happy couple. Every time they do things together they end up arguing anyway like the trip to Vermont where they stayed at the bed and breakfast, Ray was complaining. When they went golfing together Debra started when she wanted her space. 

[ByTor]

On 1/10/2018 at 5:44 PM, ShadowSixx said:

Every time they do things together they end up arguing anyway like the trip to Vermont where they stayed at the bed and breakfast, Ray was complaining.

I vote for "Debra as saint" in this episode.  Poor Ray, such a bother to have to spend time with your wife without a TV.  At least, though, he wasn't as awful as he was during the Italy trip!

Edited January 11, 2018 by ByTor

[CherryAmes]

2 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I vote for "Debra as saint" in this episode.  Poor Ray, such a bother to have to spend time with your wife without a TV. 

I think this, right here, is why I just refuse to cut Ray much slack in most episodes when it comes down to Ray choosing anyone or anything else over Debra and/or the kids.  This is a recurring theme throughout the entire series, not just the occasional episode.  Maybe Debra should have given up and just accepted that she would always come second (to friends, Marie, golf, hanging out eating pizza and watching Wheel of Fortunre at Work) but I can't really blame her for trying.

[ByTor]

8 minutes ago, CherryAmes said:

Maybe Debra should have given up and just accepted that she would always come second (to friends, Marie, golf, hanging out eating pizza and watching Wheel of Fortunre at Work) but I can't really blame her for trying.

Which reminds me of poor Debra in the Silent Partners episode trying to watch basketball with Ray...the thought of watching a game alone with her was so bad he had to invite Frank & Robert over as buffers.

[Maharincess]

2 hours ago, ByTor said:

I vote for "Debra as saint" in this episode.  Poor Ray, such a bother to have to spend time with your wife without a TV.  At least, though, he wasn't as awful as he was during the Italy trip!

I've been in my relationship for 29 years next May, I love him more than anything and I love being with him, we get along great and make each other laugh like idiots. That said, I wouldn't want to be in a small room with him for two days without a TV either. 

[ShadowSixx]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

Which reminds me of poor Debra in the Silent Partners episode trying to watch basketball with Ray...the thought of watching a game alone with her was so bad he had to invite Frank & Robert over as buffers.

IDK it's kind of odd that you have a spouse that isn't into sports and all of a sudden watch it with you. Ray told Robert that they talked while watching the game which is basically distracting the person from paying attention to the game and could miss a great play or something.

Them writing a book together ended up in an argument over what animal the main character should be, whether a dinosaur or a rabbit, argued over the name of the main character and even the way the story should be written. Debra wanted it to rhyme and Ray didn't. 

[ByTor]

7 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

IDK it's kind of odd that you have a spouse that isn't into sports and all of a sudden watch it with you. Ray told Robert that they talked while watching the game which is basically distracting the person from paying attention to the game and could miss a great play or something.

In this case though, it wasn't odd, the point was for her to try something Ray likes (sports) and for him to try something she likes (that Devilwood book) because they had nothing to talk about at their Valentine's dinner (that butter is the perfect temperature/density!).  And Ray has a lot of nerve to complain about talking during a game...whether he's watching with Frank & Robert or with his friends all they do is blab throughout the whole game.

7 hours ago, ShadowSixx said:

Them writing a book together ended up in an argument over what animal the main character should be, whether a dinosaur or a rabbit, argued over the name of the main character and even the way the story should be written. Debra wanted it to rhyme and Ray didn't. 

I vote for "Debra as harpy" in this one, it showcased "intellectually superior" at her worst.

[Holden308]

On 1/12/2018 at 10:21 PM, ByTor said:

I vote for "Debra as harpy" in this one, it showcased "intellectually superior" at her worst.

Debra seemed to love showing Ray that she was his "intellectually superior". Remember the IQ test Robert had them do? She was fine when told she had a higher score, but couldn't take it when Robert told them that he'd made a mistake and Ray had scored higher (not that Ray was a saint when he thought he scored higher lol)

Edited January 16, 2018 by Holden308

[Guest]

I think as they changed all the characters and made them worse as the seasons went on, they made Debra a lot more arrogant and it hurt the character.  In the early seasons, you saw more of her insecurities, doubts, and just the human stuff.  As time went on, it became more obvious that she thought she was the only normal one in the family, always the victim, and like the Barones were just so far below her. I think she comes across worse as the show goes on for that reason.

[BlossomCulp]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

As time went on, it became more obvious that she thought she was the only normal one in the family, always the victim, and like the Barones were just so far below her. I think she comes across worse as the show goes on for that reason.

What I noticed, to be honest, was that Patty Heaton wasn't trying very hard to win an Emmy as the seasons progressed.  The last couple of years I thought Ray Romano brought a lot more acting chops to the table than she did and that simply wasn't the case at all in the earlier years.   I don't know why that happened but the Patty Heaton who played Debra in the meatballs and the canister episodes was not the same Patty Heaton who was in the last two seasons.  With the notable and awesome exception of the episode when Marie and Frank get kicked out of the retirement community!

But with regard to the character of Debra I think she changed, she had to change, because Marie and Ray both changed.  Marie, basically became the evil MIL who often openly hated Debra and wanted her out of the family circle.  Ray became a sex mad horndog who became even more selfish and indifferent to his wife and kids (again with some notable exceptions).  Sure it was played for laughs most of the time, but if Debra hadn't changed she'd have been one of the most pathetic characters on TV.

Edited January 16, 2018 by BlossomCulp

[ShadowSixx]

4 hours ago, Holden308 said:

Debra seemed to love showing Ray that she was his "intellectually superior". Remember the IQ test Robert had them do? She was fine when told she had a higher score, but couldn't take it when Robert told them that he'd made a mistake and Ray had scored higher (not that Ray was a saint when he thought he scored higher lol)

It was ridiculous because in every relationship a person is going to be stronger/smarter in an area than the other. It's like that in just about every sitcom, the wife is smart and the husband is a bumbling idiot, you even see it in commercials. I'm a digress for a bit there was a Cascade commercial where husband was putting a lot of dishes in the dishwasher and the wife said that all dishes won't be clean, husband disagreed, spokesperson came out and said husband is right, husband was happy and wife glared at him for being right. 

I like early season Debra because she got a little goofy with Ray as well and wasn't so shrill like she was in the later seasons. Debra just always believed she was right about everything and always had to get her way in some form. In Boob Job Ray should have said her body was perfect and she didn't need surgery, the choking when she didn't sound like she was choking, The Canister, The Humm-Vac I mean if Ray gets an appliance to help clean more around the house why get upset, because Debra didn't want the humm-vac that meant Ray shouldn't have gotten it. Debra saying she doesn't have to get Ray's saying in anything cause he doesn't help around the house but he's providing money to keep the house running so why doesn't he get a say in things.

The way she was acting towards Ray in Vote for Debra ashamed at his appearance like he came looking like a hobo when he looked pretty decent to me. It's the way Ray usually dresses, he mostly dresses up when he's golfing or going to special events. 

[BlossomCulp]

12 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

Debra saying she doesn't have to get Ray's saying in anything cause he doesn't help around the house but he's providing money to keep the house running so why doesn't he get a say in things.

:shrug: I agree with Debra here.  When Ray actually takes more than a passing interest in what happens in the house then he gets a say.  I don't care if he is the one bringing home the paycheque,  that isn't the point.  He buys stupid stuff like a short hose (which made for one of the funniest scenes on ELR) and spends his time at home parked in front of the TV.   Besides, Debra does concede that he should have a say and he almost burns down the house!  Somehow I just don't think the writers are telling us Ray is right here!!

[ShadowSixx]

IMO if a spouse agrees to work outside the home and the other agrees to be a housewife/househusband then you get equal say. It would be different if they were both working. Writers were inconsistent with Ray cause they show him at points helping out around the house and being a good father to the kids and when Ray brought up the type of couch he would have purchased and the ugly drapes Debra brought, Debra immediately overrules him without discussing things with him. Even when he purchased tissues people made a big deal about it. Debra admits that she's a martyr, Ray does things around the house but doesn't like the way he does them. So why should Ray bother cleaning if Debra is just going to do it over again cause it's not done the way she wants it done.

[BlossomCulp]

I think they are actually pretty clear in the timeline that early seasons Ray was much more helpful, in his own Ray way, then later seasons Ray was.  By the time of the kleenex and humm vac episodes we've got the Ray who makes it his mission in life to avoid spending any time with his wife or his kids.  

[Mrs. Hanson]

On 1/11/2018 at 8:12 PM, Maharincess said:

I've been in my relationship for 29 years next May, I love him more than anything and I love being with him, we get along great and make each other laugh like idiots. That said, I wouldn't want to be in a small room with him for two days without a TV either. 

My hubby and I just got back from a bed and breakfast for four days - I am so glad the television was there!! LOL!  (It was -11 outside so it is not like I could go and take a walk!)

 

On 1/16/2018 at 11:34 AM, BlossomCulp said:

canister episodes was not the same Patty Heaton who was in the last two seasons.  With the notable and awesome exception of the episode when Marie and Frank get kicked out of the retirement community!

OMG - the canister!!!  I laugh just thinking about that one!!   Retirement:  Too many good lines to count, but the best is "Is it money?  WE CAN PAY MORE MONEY!" 

[qtpye]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:02 PM, ByTor said:

Which reminds me of poor Debra in the Silent Partners episode trying to watch basketball with Ray...the thought of watching a game alone with her was so bad he had to invite Frank & Robert over as buffers.

 

On 1/11/2018 at 6:52 PM, CherryAmes said:

I think this, right here, is why I just refuse to cut Ray much slack in most episodes when it comes down to Ray choosing anyone or anything else over Debra and/or the kids.  This is a recurring theme throughout the entire series, not just the occasional episode.  Maybe Debra should have given up and just accepted that she would always come second (to friends, Marie, golf, hanging out eating pizza and watching Wheel of Fortunre at Work) but I can't really blame her for trying.

 

On 1/12/2018 at 6:51 AM, ByTor said:

In this case though, it wasn't odd, the point was for her to try something Ray likes (sports) and for him to try something she likes (that Devilwood book) because they had nothing to talk about at their Valentine's dinner (that butter is the perfect temperature/density!).  And Ray has a lot of nerve to complain about talking during a game...whether he's watching with Frank & Robert or with his friends all they do is blab throughout the whole game.

I vote for "Debra as harpy" in this one, it showcased "intellectually superior" at her worst.

 

On 1/16/2018 at 11:54 AM, Holden308 said:

Debra seemed to love showing Ray that she was his "intellectually superior". Remember the IQ test Robert had them do? She was fine when told she had a higher score, but couldn't take it when Robert told them that he'd made a mistake and Ray had scored higher (not that Ray was a saint when he thought he scored higher lol)

Ray and Debra always seemed to me like one of those long-married couples that still love each other, but really do not like each other very much.  I think Debra thought Ray was kind of an idiot who just lucked into a Job where he gets paid a lot of money to watch sports.  I think Ray was overall lazy and selfish, and loathed to spend time with his wife, unless they were having sex.

[WildStyle]

A Harpy episode I think is Move Over.

Ray can't sleep with her cuddled up to him. So Debra takes personal offense and thinks Ray has a problem because he doesn't wanna be cramped up while sleeping. Then yells about how he needs help and for him not to call her "honey."

Then after getting back from seeing Father Hubley, Debra asks if he went to see someone about his "problem."

She did the same in another Harpy episode in season 1. Bernie & Lynda are making out during their night out. Then Debra comes home in a bad mood, asking why Ray can't be affectionate with her. Surely she knew he wasn't the most overly affectionate guy before they got married. Now, when another couple -newlyweds at that, are having foreplay at dinner, she wants Ray to be that way. Then it becomes an issue of him never saying I love you, and saying that something is wrong with a person who doesn't do that.

Some people are not the huggy buggy, snuggly sort. And that's not a problem. Just preference. I am a woman, and I don't wanna sleep crammed up next to someone. I want space and room when sleeping. lol

Edited January 18, 2018 by WildStyle

[ShadowSixx]

I'm the same way. I don't want to be all snuggly and cuddly when it's time to go to bed. Stay on your side and I'll stay on mine. Don't forget the episode where Bernie and Linda are going to a counselor and Debra thinks her and Ray should go and see a counselor. She was a complete harpy in Who's Next making Ray choose who he would pick for her in case he died when Ray clearly didn't want to do it. Only did it cause Marie did it for Frank. Debra can't improve her marriage off the relationships of other people or what they're doing. That's not how it works. 

[WildStyle]

9 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

I'm the same way. I don't want to be all snuggly and cuddly when it's time to go to bed. Stay on your side and I'll stay on mine. Don't forget the episode where Bernie and Linda are going to a counselor and Debra thinks her and Ray should go and see a counselor. She was a complete harpy in Who's Next making Ray choose who he would pick for her in case he died when Ray clearly didn't want to do it. Only did it cause Marie did it for Frank. Debra can't improve her marriage off the relationships of other people or what they're doing. That's not how it works. 

And I love that Ray was right about Bernie & Lynda. 

In season 1 where Debra starts moaning, Ray tells her they've only been married 2 years. He tells her Bernie & Lynda don't have kids so there's no exhaustion and noise. And he's right. They been married a good few years longer and have a baby, now they're in counselling. Clearly all the huggy buggy honeymoon stuff didn't last.

[BlossomCulp]

7 minutes ago, WildStyle said:

Clearly all the huggy buggy honeymoon stuff didn't last.

Heh. Reminds me of the civil war episode where Ray and Debra are invited to the baby shower and Debra says "it's their first baby, they're still excited".

24 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

She was a complete harpy in Who's Next making Ray choose who he would pick for her in case he died when Ray clearly didn't want to do it.

I dislike the term harpy greatly but aside from that I still don't agree that Debra was a harpy here.  It was a conversational starting point and it royally backfired on her but even if she was a little jealous when Ray chose Linda I'm not sure why that makes her a harpy.  I mean is Debra never allowed to have negative feelings and express them without being accused of being a harpy?

Edited January 19, 2018 by BlossomCulp

[ShadowSixx]

If someone is completely uncomfortable or don't want to participate she should have dropped it because it turned into an argument, Debra not being happy with who Ray picked and Debra lying to Lynda and Bernie. 

[ByTor]

42 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

Don't forget the episode where Bernie and Linda are going to a counselor and Debra thinks her and Ray should go and see a counselor.

I love that episode!  "I think I use golf in an almost passive-aggressive way" LOL.

[ShadowSixx]

I love that episode too because of how Ray manipulated the counseling to go in his favor. I laughed when Debra said the reason Ray came home late was because Gianni wanted to pet a deer.

[ByTor]

3 minutes ago, ShadowSixx said:

I love that episode too because of how Ray manipulated the counseling to go in his favor.

That was the best part!  He was being such an obvious suck-up, yet that therapist fell for his act hook, line & sinker.

[Guest]

In Who's Next, I think Debra was wrong, but not a harpy.  She was jealous and acted out, but I think her emotions just got the best of her.  My favorite part of that episode is the Harriet Lichman scene.

[ByTor]

1 hour ago, deaja said:

In Who's Next, I think Debra was wrong, but not a harpy.  She was jealous and acted out, but I think her emotions just got the best of her.  My favorite part of that episode is the Harriet Lichman scene.

I normally don't like Robert when he's in "Raymond gets EVERYTHING!" mode, but I did like his "What???" when he overheard that Ray used to get slipped an extra piece of pie.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ByTor said:

I normally don't like Robert when he's in "Raymond gets EVERYTHING!" mode, but I did like his "What???" when he overheard that Ray used to get slipped an extra piece of pie.

The fact that Marie was behind that irritates me so much.

[Holden308]

On 1/19/2018 at 2:25 AM, qtpye said:

Ray and Debra always seemed to me like one of those long-married couples that still love each other, but really do not like each other very much.  I think Debra thought Ray was kind of an idiot who just lucked into a Job where he gets paid a lot of money to watch sports.  I think Ray was overall lazy and selfish, and loathed to spend time with his wife, unless they were having sex.

I think they set a sitcom record for how many times the wife called her on-screen husband an idiot (though Carrie in King of Queens would have given her a good run for her money). Just about every episode.....sometimes to his face, often behind his back.

But then, when you think about it that was a premise of both ELR and KoQ. The (supposedly) more intelligent wife trying to hold things together while dealing with a doofus of a husband.

I also think you hit the nail on the head with the last line. The only time Ray seemed to take any real interest in his family (i.e. Debra and the kids) was if he was promised to get sex afterward (or he just thought he would get it).....and even then Debra often reneged on a promise of sex.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Holden308

[Holden308]

I live in Australia and here we have just had ELR go right back to the very start....and I have a question.

Frank was a bookkeeper when he worked and from what I can tell Marie's main money earning job was home made piano lessons which she hadn't done in years. In (I think) the 3rd ever episode Ray lost $2300 to his dad playing poker with him and his lodge buddies one night at Nemo's. Now this isn't about the sitcom cliche of the husband losing money and the wife trying to force him to go and ask for the money back (shock horror that happened). This is about when Marie tried to give Debra the money behind Ray's back. Marie said that she had some $46,000 saved up that Frank knew nothing about.

After raising 2 boys, having a husband who's main thing when home seemed to be eating plus paying off a house and of course the bills and other associated costs that families have, how the hell did Marie have that sort of money saved up, even after 40+ years of marriage.

Oh, and just a minor point, after watching the first episode a couple of days ago I noticed something. Like a lot of sitcom homes, Frank and Marie's house changed. Originally the back door where everyone entered into the kitchen was actually on the right side of the screen and the entry to the living room was where the back door ended up being. From the second episode the kitchen did a complete 180.

Edited January 20, 2018 by Holden308

[BlossomCulp]

5 hours ago, Holden308 said:

After raising 2 boys, having a husband who's main thing when home seemed to be eating plus paying off a house and of course the bills and other associated costs that families have, how the hell did Marie have that sort of money saved up, even after 40+ years of marriage.

For that matter how do they manage to have such a comfortable retirement even to the point where they can afford to move to their "dream retirement community" while selling Robert the house for $26000?  The senior Barone's financial situation has long puzzled me!  Had Robert been paying them rent all the years he lived with them I could see how they could afford to spend what they do on groceries (let's face it Marie doesn't skimp on ingredients and she cooks constantly) but he wasn't paying them anything.

I wondered if Robert and Amy were even paying when they lived there at the end I don't recall them saying, but I suspect not.

[Holden308]

3 hours ago, BlossomCulp said:

For that matter how do they manage to have such a comfortable retirement even to the point where they can afford to move to their "dream retirement community" while selling Robert the house for $26000?  The senior Barone's financial situation has long puzzled me!  Had Robert been paying them rent all the years he lived with them I could see how they could afford to spend what they do on groceries (let's face it Marie doesn't skimp on ingredients and she cooks constantly) but he wasn't paying them anything.

I wondered if Robert and Amy were even paying when they lived there at the end I don't recall them saying, but I suspect not.

Considering how many times Frank mentioned Robert living there without paying rent, I think its safe to say he wasn't. And Marie often cooked enough for both her own home AND Ray's because of her low opinion of Debra's cooking (which went from ok to bad to horrible over the course of the show).

As for Frank and Marie's income, I can only assume that Frank got a pension of some sort. Maybe from his old work (even though he was fired rather than he retired) or a veterans pension since he often talked about being in Korea. But like you, it puzzles me how they can live as comfortably as they do. And its the same with Ray and Debra.....single income family, stay at home mom raising 3 kids, one teen and twin pre-teens by the end. Yet on Ray's pay as a sportswriter they can own their own home, have two cars, raise the kids and still live quite comfortably with money to spare. Most families in that situation barely scrape by with both the husband and wife working, let alone a one income family.

The only times I ever heard Ray or Debra complain about money was when Ray lost the $2300 to his dad in a poker game and Debra mentioned that they still had to pay for the kids to go to college one day (3rd ever episode), and the episode where Ray gives his friends $1000 to buy into their go-kart business and Debra (not surprisingly after saying no) went off at him for it because he had already given them a cheque. But when they gave Robert money because he was supposed to be too broke to pay his bills or buy groceries.....somehow that was not a problem as they had the money to spare.

And just on the house.....Robert and Amy bought it from Frank and Marie for $26,000 which is what they originally paid for the house. Yet somehow when they get kicked out of the retirement home, even though Robert gets mad and says he bought the house, for the rest of the series (it was the last season), it was like Frank and Marie owned it again. Did they buy it back or in their usual fashion did they just move back in and take over? If that was the case why wouldn't Robert and Amy be extremely pissed off at being out 26 grand?

Edited January 20, 2018 by Holden308

[WildStyle]

37 minutes ago, Holden308 said:

Considering how many times Frank mentioned Robert living there without paying rent, I think its safe to say he wasn't. And Marie often cooked enough for both her own home AND Ray's because of her low opinion of Debra's cooking (which went from ok to bad to horrible over the course of the show).

As for Frank and Marie's income, I can only assume that Frank got a pension of some sort. Maybe from his old work (even though he was fired rather than he retired) or a veterans pension since he often talked about being in Korea. But like you, it puzzles me how they can live as comfortably as they do. And its the same with Ray and Debra.....single income family, stay at home mom raising 3 kids, one teen and twin pre-teens by the end. Yet on Ray's pay as a sportswriter they can own their own home, have two cars, raise the kids and still live quite comfortably with money to spare. Most families in that situation barely scrape by with both the husband and wife working, let alone a one income family.

The only times I ever heard Ray or Debra complain about money was when Ray lost the $2300 to his dad in a poker game and Debra mentioned that they still had to pay for the kids to go to college one day (3rd ever episode), and the episode where Ray gives his friends $1000 to buy into their go-kart business and Debra (not surprisingly after saying no) went off at him for it because he had already given them a cheque. But when they gave Robert money because he was supposed to be too broke to pay his bills or buy groceries.....somehow that was not a problem as they had the money to spare.

And just on the house.....Robert and Amy bought it from Frank and Marie for $26,000 which is what they originally paid for the house. Yet somehow when they get kicked out of the retirement home, even though Robert gets mad and says he bought the house, for the rest of the series (it was the last season), it was like Frank and Marie owned it again. Did they buy it back or in their usual fashion did they just move back in and take over? If that was the case why wouldn't Robert and Amy be extremely pissed off at being out 26 grand?

Yeah, the show has tons of holes and needs a lot of suspension of disbelief when you really look.

I always found it unrealistic that Robert would be a cop as much of a wuss as he was. He's scared of his parents, gets spooked staying alone (even though he should have a gun), and freaks out at the slightest thing. Yet he's working on a job chasing down criminals and dealing with severed body parts. Judy seemed to have a bigger pair than Robert. lol

But this may just be me.

[Holden308]

Given half a chance by Marie (and it happened on occasion).....Robert was a bigger mamma's boy than Ray was at times.

Judy definitely had a bigger pair (in more ways than one, but we won't say that. Oops just did lol).

[bigskygirl]

Speaking of the $26,000...Where did Robert and Amy get the money from because I have a hard time believing they already had the money. Did they take out a loan or where they going to make payments to Frank and Marie.

Also Robert was a Captain in the police department so why did he and Amy were struggling for money. I know law enforcement officers do not earn the big bucks, but he should have some money. Was Amy still working after they got married? I guess it was another stupid story line of one of the adult children living with the parents because of not having money. Robert said he was taken to the cleaners after his divorce, but the divorce was awhile ago, and he went up in rank at the PD. Just once I would love to have a show where one or more adult child did not live at home with a parent(s) and was able to be a normal functioning adult in the real world.

[WildStyle]

45 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

Speaking of the $26,000...Where did Robert and Amy get the money from because I have a hard time believing they already had the money. Did they take out a loan or where they going to make payments to Frank and Marie.

Also Robert was a Captain in the police department so why did he and Amy were struggling for money. I know law enforcement officers do not earn the big bucks, but he should have some money. Was Amy still working after they got married? I guess it was another stupid story line of one of the adult children living with the parents because of not having money. Robert said he was taken to the cleaners after his divorce, but the divorce was awhile ago, and he went up in rank at the PD. Just once I would love to have a show where one or more adult child did not live at home with a parent(s) and was able to be a normal functioning adult in the real world.

When Ray was having trouble in The Checkbook, Robert had $3,000 to give him.  So he's broke when the plot calls for it. 

[BlossomCulp]

1 hour ago, bigskygirl said:

I know law enforcement officers do not earn the big bucks, but he should have some money.

I'm sure this depends, of course, on where you live but I know somewhere on one of these pages we discussed Robert's income as a NYPD police officer and given his rank and length of service he would have been making a very nice income.  I can accept that buying or even renting close to NYC would be expensive and even a good salary wouldn't go as far but I think the writers in trying to make Ray the successful brother went a little too far in trying to make Robert the poor relation.  If nothing else he and Amy were DINKS (double income no kids) unlike Ray and Deb who were a one income family with 3 kids.

Edited January 20, 2018 by BlossomCulp