The Bullpen

[alexvillage]

 

alexvillage, your post made me wonder.  It sounds like Emily was your favorite character, if you stopped watching when she left.

Yes and no.

I watched CM, the early seasons, through reruns, so it took me a while to grasp the series. I noticed, though, that the writing was getting worse. I usually don't pay attention on who is writing, who is producing, or who is directing. I also never liked Garcia and JJ, but early on they were not as much on the episodes, so it was fine. Then Garcia got to be too much and I started FFing through her scenes. Then her computer became magical, I started to hate watch most of the episodes.

Add to that, I dislike SM, I think he is a bad actor. I liked Elle, and I loved Emily.

So, yes, I stopped watching after Emily left because she was the one character I enjoyed, she had some chemistry with the others and was a bit more complex (plus the shallow, she is gorgeous and sexy). I love JM, but he seems to be there for sound bites only and TG has lost its shine, imo.

Maybe that's why I find it so hard to actually get involved again. If the writing is good, I can overcome, somewhat, my aversion to some characters. But they need to get my attention first (the writers, I mean)

[normasm]

Then Garcia got to be too much and I started FFing through her scenes. Then her computer became magical, I started to hate watch most of the episodes.

Yes, when Garcia began carping about how she was a "genius", too, i started souring on her character.

The only character you didn't talk about was Reid (unless I missed it). What did and do you think of his character over the seasons?

[JMO]

 

Then Garcia got to be too much and I started FFing through her scenes. Then her computer became magical, I started to hate watch most of the episodes.

 

I'm not familiar with 'hate watching'.  Is this an actual concept, or just a turn of phrase?

 

Me?  I'm just too old.  There are too many things left to enjoy to spend time on things I don't.  If that happened to you with CM, it's completely understandable that you would have stopped watching. I certainly would have.

[alexvillage]

I am not sure about Reid. I love the quirky, nerdy Reid. I love his not wanting to shake hands, or to engaging in explanations that interests no one else but himself. I wish they had made him openly Autistic because he is multidimensional (Autism and disabilities rights are my cause, my life). I do think the writing for his character is inconsistent. I wish they had made him more assertive over the years because he continued to be treated as - and called - "kid". I am not sure about the actor though. I don't think he is great, but I think he has great moments. Definitely not attracted to him as some on the board might be. I am too old and too interested in women for that :)

So, after ll the babbling, I do like Reid, mostly the early seasons Reid.

 

I'm not familiar with 'hate watching

Hate watching is when you are so disappointed and hopeless about the direction of a show that you start watching just to see the flaws and then snark about it

[Wilowy]

JMO, some people also hatewatch just because they like tearing down things others love. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'm not familiar with 'hate watching'.  Is this an actual concept, or just a turn of phrase?

 

Hate watching is definitely a concept. The prime example of this is present day General Hospital, which I don't actually recommend watching unless you're equipped with some kind of protective eyewear. The second best thing is to poke your head into that section of the forums. That way you only get second hand suck.

 

I don't hate watch this show, and sometimes I think if there was someone else piloting the boat it could be great again. Nothing really against Erica, because I'm sure she's a nice person and maybe she even thinks she's doing a fine job. But she is not, IMO, a good showrunner.

[JMO]

Thanks for the responses on 'hate-watching'.  I guess this is TV viewing in the age of the internet.

 

I get being dissatisfied with aspects of a show----I've certainly expressed my own opinions on that, re:CM----but to actively watch a show one doesn't like for the purpose of 'snarking' on it?  Wow.  Doesn't seem worthy of the heartbeats and breaths it uses up.  Not when there are so many other choices of things to watch and do, and so many things that need building up.  I guess it's just a lifestyle/belief/choice thing.

 

On that note, I'm going outside to plant some bulbs.  After an anticipated long, cold winter, I will have some beautiful pink and purple positivity to look at!  (Or should I just snark about the snow and ice? ---Kidding!)

[Wilowy]

I believe the only apathetic writer is Dunkle. Janine, uneven as she is, is LARGE with the enthusiasm. Virgil has a real affection for Reid, Morgan, and Garcia and Breen is deeply into process and motivation. I do think Kim is the weakest link, and that Jim doesn't write enough. I'm sure one can find many things to say one way or another about each and every writer, but that's for the writer's thread.

 

SweetToooth I remember your same comments from years ago on TWoP. 

[alexvillage]

Hate watch, to me, carries a little bit of hope that things will improve, or sometimes I feel vindicated by something a character does. For example, when Emily tells Garcia "Stop! Just stop!" In the episode Valhalla (I think). Something people should tell her more often.

It is satisfying to see these moments (even though this episode was not one I hate watched)

[normasm]

I don't hate watch this show either, JMO, I agree there's no logic in that. I do criticize the show, the writing, the acting, whatever, when it's IMO bad, but I also praise when it's good, so, it's delusional to call that hate-watching (I'm not calling you delusional by the way).

 

I confess I did hate-watch All My Children waaaaaay back in the day because my sister couldn't watch it and didn't have a VCR, but then I started to really love it, it was a scream back then! It turned from hate-watch to guilty pleasure.

[Wilowy]

I'd be curious to hear what you think is good, normasm, as I don't recall you saying anything of the sort in recent history. Then again, maybe I'm just delusional. ;)

[SSAHotchner]

I'm not hate watching, either. I really want to like it, but often they make it pretty hard for me to do so.

 

Back to the thing about Reid's anger about being deceived about Emily. It would have been nice to have that carry on, take longer to work out, BUT they made him so childish from the get-go. That to me is inconsistent. I would have rather seen his grief and anguish than him just lashing out so petulantly. He made a very valid point, too, that they knew he had struggled with drug addiction and it should have crossed their (JJ & Hotch's) minds that this kind of grief could have been overwhelming for him. On the other hand, the whole spy arc was so stupid that getting away from it as soon as possible was a relief. What started out as a season full of hope (getting the "right" team back together) fell apart with the first JBS ep, "Proof," which was one of the worst of the entire series IMO.

 

And I just saw one of my very favorite scenes, "This is Brad, a REAL FBI agent!" Love, love, love.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And I just saw one of my very favorite scenes, "This is Brad, a REAL FBI agent!" Love, love, love.

 

I saw that too, SSAHotchner, and I snicker every time I watch Emily set him up, with able assists from JJ and Garcia. She's just a step away from gushing at first, and when the other two ladies back her up before they finally drop the bomb on him, I love it every. single. time. And then he basically runs away from them without a word. Awesome. The only thing that's even a little bit comparable is this scene from the UK version of Coupling

 

 

 

The wonderfulness of the scene even distracts me from Paget's extremely low-cut shirt which, like, almost never happens.[/shallow]

[Wilowy]

"Ooooh, what's it like at Quan-tee-co?" heh heh

 

Agreed, SSAH, about Proof, though JJ and Reid's argument is a highlight for me. 

 

I go back and forth on Reid's behavior about that whole thing. I give it a pass time-wise due to the storytelling aspect of needing to wrap shit up that CBS insists upon, but I too would have liked to have seen more play out. I wanted to SEE Reid go to JJ's, maybe in a flashback. I would have liked to have seen him thinking about the Dilaudid, and maybe struggling with himself not to take it. Maybe showing his address book open to the page of his drug dealer (made obvious somehow), then him leaving the house, ostensibly to go meet with the guy, then end up showing him attending a BCC meeting, instead. 

 

I don't think his behavior was all that immature, considering he was struggling with staying on-point at the job, and dealing with all these new feelings of hostility towards JJ that he had never felt before, and then on top of that, what was supposed to be joy that Em was alive was all crapped on because of his sense of betrayal. A lot to deal with, and his retreat into his intellect and cold hard professionalism was his coping mechanism, as I saw it. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

And not to pick on JJ, but she did keep poking at him, trying to get him to talk to her, and he was trying to work. When he finally rounds on her, it doesn't strike me as childish so much as it does, "God, would you get off my back?!" I mean, obviously he was very upset, and she had to know she wasn't going to like what he had to say, so why didn't she just leave him alone? It's bad writing, IMO. It was worse writing when they had Emily tell him not to give her another ulcer, like he was the one who'd created the situation.

[SSAHotchner]

Yeah, Willowy. Just chalk it up to one more missed opportunity while they give us unsubs cutting off eyelids and covering bodies with maggots. There are so many rich areas they could explore with the team, but they give us silly dating relationships.

[Wilowy]

Jesus fuck don't get me started on those maggots. I nearly wanted Zimmerman's head on a spike for that sickening, awful episode. 

 

I am interested though, in their dating lives. I can't help it that I want to know all about their stuff. I want to understand everything about them as fully rounded people, not just agents on the job. That was okay back in the day but we have been with them for a very long time now. I welcome and would much rather hear/see their dating lives than I would those aforementioned maggots or envelopes of eyelids (though Reid's discovery of said envelope was a good moment).

[SSAHotchner]

Thanks for the clip, Cobalt. My husband has watched all the episodes of Coupling, but I've only seen a bit of it. I'll have to check it out further.

[SSAHotchner]

Jesus fuck don't get me started on those maggots. I nearly wanted Zimmerman's head on a spike for that sickening, awful episode. 

 

I am interested though, in their dating lives. I can't help it that I want to know all about their stuff. I want to understand everything about them as fully rounded people, not just agents on the job. That was okay back in the day but we have been with them for a very long time now. I welcome and would much rather hear/see their dating lives than I would those aforementioned maggots or envelopes of eyelids (though Reid's discovery of said envelope was a good moment).

I think back to the episode where they were discussing near-death experiences. That could have been developed more. Hotch and Reid could have had so much more of a meaningful conversation about losing the love of their lives to an unsub. I get that they were trying to inject some humor and lightness when they did that scene on the plane with JLH where they were talking about injuries but even that could have been developed into something better. I'd love to know more about Rossi's other wives. Was he a cheater? Or was he like the real BAU guy who wrote "Mind Hunter" and just so callous at home that his wives gave up? Those scenes in the earlier episodes where we saw some or all of them out together seemed much more natural than the forced team outings we have had at the end of episodes in the later seasons. You really believed that JJ, Emily and Penelope would occasionally get together outside of work. I did like Rossi helping out Hotch with the coaching of Jack's soccer team. I'd love to see Reid hanging out with anyone outside of work. Does he have any friends outside of the BAU?

[Wilowy]

Re: the wound discussion, despite my earlier post about Reid walking by with coffee and pulling a Buffy moment, I think it was more poignant that the two men who have suffered the most of all in the course of the job... said nothing. 

 

I would have liked to have seen a look pass between them, though. Something like "Yeah, I know.", but unspoken.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Thanks for the clip, Cobalt. My husband has watched all the episodes of Coupling, but I've only seen a bit of it. I'll have to check it out further.

 

"Uniforms? You mean they weren't naked?"

 

Also, there's a two degree connection to CM, because the actress who played Jane is Gina Bellman, who co-starred with Beth Reisgraf in Leverage.

[SSAHotchner]

I adore Leverage. Every current writer on CM could learn so much from those writers on how to write for the entire team. Also, on their DVDs there are commentaries on every episode and they really busted their butts to get things right down to the last detail. You wouldn't catch the kind of errors and inconsistencies we get from the CM writers. And talk about organic and believable character growth!

[Wilowy]

There's this awesome thread for other shows we love too: http://forums.previously.tv/topic/4587-other-shows-we-like/page-3#entry360302

 

There was also a hashtag event for Leverage a couple of days ago. Folks trying to get it trending to promote their push for a movie. 

[formerlyfreedom]

In addition, we also have a forum for Leverage; it's not terribly active at this time, but it does seem to have hits when they have the reruns on Ion, so great place to find folks who enjoy the show! (which I did, due to my extreme love of all things Aldis Hodge)....

[Danielg342]

So I've been wanting to enter the discussion about character inconsistencies, UnSub-focus, the stylistic shift and the lack of arcs on CM for quite some time...I had a whole post planned. With quotes...but I don't think I'll ever get to that. So I'll just go with my gut.

 

I think the one thing that needs to be remembered is that CM is sold as a show where the vast majority of its episodes are self-contained. It's tailor-made for syndication, and syndicators don't particularly like shows that *need* their episodes to be aired in a specific order. Thus, they like shows that wrap up the stories neatly in a tiny little bow at the end, instead of leaving several different plot threads hanging after each episode.

 

What this means from a storywriting perspective is that CM can't really have too many elaborate arcs over a season or several seasons- thus, they can't have long, deep, introspective character arcs that some other shows do because the expectation is that when you watch an episode of CM, you won't *need* to watch the other episodes to understand what's going on. It's probably why any character-defining moment is done in random snippets, and if a character has a major storyline (such as Garcia's recent journey to Texas), it's dealt with in a single episode. Now, I do think that CM doesn't make enough use of arcs and I kind of wish they'd do more to develop storylines for the characters (they don't need to be major...each character should at least have a sense that they're "growing", at least, bit by bit with each year), but I don't want the show to turn into a character-based drama in order to do it.

 

Which brings me to the UnSubs...what drew me to this show was the idea that I'd be able to see into the criminal's mind and understand, exactly, why they do what they do. I like the thought of things being not so "black and white", with the criminals perhaps being sympathetic or at least being "vulnerable" in that we see their human side, plus I think there's only so many times I can watch rudimentary evidence collecting in a murder investigation before they all start looking the same- adding the human mind to that equation and even using it as evidence is a novel idea. Thus, I'm not against the idea of "showing the UnSub early" because I think it can be done well- look at Norman Hill ("Normal"), Johnny McHale ("True Night"), and Wade Hatchett ("Solitary Man"). I just don't like them showing the UnSub early if we're not going to get some deep examination of their motivations and their life situation- if it's just about showing how "deranged" they are, I'll take a pass.

 

This ties into the next point, and that's CM's stylistic shift. You watch Season 1 and you see a completely different show- S1 was about mystery and "putting the puzzle pieces together" while the rest of the series has been about episodes that are more about "action" and "urgency"- S1 didn't have as many spree killers as we see now. There must have been a moment in between S1 and S2 where the writers decided the show needed to be less "methodical" and more "decisive" and I think the show ultimately benefitted from that. Not that there's anything wrong with cerebral-type, puzzle-building mysteries, but after a while it becomes weary- you eventually want the characters to do things, instead of just talk. Besides, as I said before, there's only so many different ways you can craft the puzzle before it all starts looking the same- at some point, you need to "freshen" it up. I think about Elementary and its ratings decline last season and I point to precisely this point- the cases just got weirder and more obtuse with the characters mostly just posturing and talking, and I think a lot of people checked out. I still loved it because I'm a cerebral kind of guy, but the wider, general audience likes it when the writer "gets to the point", and Elementary didn't do that enough. I understand this is another rendition of the "Viewers are Morons" argument, but I tend to think there's a tiny bit of a kernel of truth to that- not everyone's brain is going to have the patience to "solve a muder" so if you can mix mystery with action, then you've done a good job. Do I think CM should inject a bit more mystery nowadays? Yeah, it could, but I also think it shouldn't stray too far from the mystery-action mix.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

This ties into the next point, and that's CM's stylistic shift. You watch Season 1 and you see a completely different show- S1 was about mystery and "putting the puzzle pieces together" while the rest of the series has been about episodes that are more about "action" and "urgency"- S1 didn't have as many spree killers as we see now. There must have been a moment in between S1 and S2 where the writers decided the show needed to be less "methodical" and more "decisive" and I think the show ultimately benefitted from that. Not that there's anything wrong with cerebral-type, puzzle-building mysteries, but after a while it becomes weary- you eventually want the characters to do things, instead of just talk. Besides, as I said before, there's only so many different ways you can craft the puzzle before it all starts looking the same- at some point, you need to "freshen" it up. I think about Elementary and its ratings decline last season and I point to precisely this point- the cases just got weirder and more obtuse with the characters mostly just posturing and talking, and I think a lot of people checked out. I still loved it because I'm a cerebral kind of guy, but the wider, general audience likes it when the writer "gets to the point", and Elementary didn't do that enough. I understand this is another rendition of the "Viewers are Morons" argument, but I tend to think there's a tiny bit of a kernel of truth to that- not everyone's brain is going to have the patience to "solve a muder" so if you can mix mystery with action, then you've done a good job. Do I think CM should inject a bit more mystery nowadays? Yeah, it could, but I also think it shouldn't stray too far from the mystery-action mix.

 

Most of what you say makes sense, Daniel2342, but I have to point out that the "action, not words" approach of the "New!Improved!CM" is precisely what made the character of Alex Blake fall flat with viewers, and it's what has pushed Reid so far into the background that it always startles me a little when he isn't relegated to being wallpaper in an episode. Cerebral characters can't find a niche in a show where there's so much focus on either karate-chopping the bad guys into submission or huge gun battles. Not to be too sarcastic, but if I wanted to watch an action movie I'd pop Fast and the Furious in the DVD player and watch that. We get snippets of the main cast putting actual thought into solving the case now, but it's usually just that, snippets. I cannot tell you how little interest I have anymore in watching Steroid!JJ and Morgan taking turns kicking down doors and what have you.

 

As far as character consistency in general goes, that's always been an issue, even when the show wasn't as loud, for lack of a better word for it. Reid and Prentiss are the main casualties, but all of them are a little underwritten. And they barely even tried with Blake. Now we have Callahan, who seems to be off to a better start, but that's kind of annoying to me in it's own way because it seems like Erica playing favorites again.  Again, still, some more. Would it be better if what got freshened up was the writing staff instead of the way the show gets written? I don't have the answer to that, and with Messer as showrunner the results might actually be worse because I don't think she's amazingly competent. If she was, she could separate the wheat from the chaff among the writers. JMO.

[Danielg342]

I kind of disagree- I don't think that because a character is cerebral that they can't be useful in an "action" setting- The Blacklist has their resident genius, Aram Mojtabi (played by the wonderful Amir Arison) and they're making pretty good use of him. Besides, again, I think the failure behind the utilisation of Reid and Blake has more to with the writers not being creative enough than the fact that they're cerebral characters on an action show. In Reid's case, the show has already established that he thinks best under intense pressure- thus, this means that while he might be the strongest character, he'd be the cleverest, able to turn anything into a potent weapon. I think about the scene in "The Gatekeeper" where Reid find a novel way to take the knife away from the UnSub...that's an example of how his quick thinking can come into play. I certainly think the writers can go to this well more often, especially considering that by now we should be convinced that Reid is better in the field. The only caveat is that the writers seem to be too lazy to be clever, so I worry the current batch doesn't try...but I think if they did it would more than solve the problem.

[Wilowy]

"The current batch".  Heh. Writers have been the same for four years now. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I kind of disagree- I don't think that because a character is cerebral that they can't be useful in an "action" setting- The Blacklist has their resident genius, Aram Mojtabi (played by the wonderful Amir Arison) and they're making pretty good use of him. Besides, again, I think the failure behind the utilisation of Reid and Blake has more to with the writers not being creative enough than the fact that they're cerebral characters on an action show.

 

Unfortunately I don't watch The Blacklist, although I've heard it's very good. I haven't been able to deal with James Spader since Boston Legal. :-)

 

And if it's true that CM's current crop of writers aren't creative enough to know how to utilize all of the characters, then perhaps they need to be replaced. Having an ensemble cast means that everyone should be getting story/a point of view/stuff to do. Professionals, in any job, need to be able to do that job adequately enough that the results are satisfactory to someone else besides themselves, and when you're being paid what is probably a handsome salary to create something entertaining, if you aren't creative enough to do that, then maybe you should reconsider your career path. It's Hollywood. I cannot believe that there aren't dozens if not hundreds of aspiring writers who would give their right nipple to have the chance to get a job with a network stalwart like Criminal Minds, and among those dozens if not hundreds there must be people who have the creativity and talent to write for characters like Reid and Blake.

 

Again, it comes down to the showrunner not being willing to hire writers who can make the whole cast shine and create consistent characterization. Maybe the network is to blame as well, but the showrunner usually handles the day-to-day stuff, not the Suits. Perhaps if Messer was competent, she'd give the weakest writers their walking papers, then get the weak writers to brush up on their skills or face being fired as well so that she can hire some new people who can do the damn job. Maybe she is the one who should reconsider her career path.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[Wilowy]

None of them are going anywhere. However you think of them, for better or worse, they are who we have. 

[normasm]

I sorta look at this philosophically, Cobalt. If it wasn't for the show, I may not have ever seen MGG, and the thought of that makes me sad. Do i wish the writers, from day one, had been consistent and creative with all the individual characters and team dynamics in addition to delving into the reality of the psychology behind serial criminals and kidnappers? You bet. But I have come to the conclusion that to do that, especially over a period of years (and ten is so rare!), you would probably need a very small team of writers (3 to 4) and a show runner who is aggressive and protective of the characters/team dynamic/psychology. And less shows per season.

 

They have always had too many writers on this show, and the show running has been inconsistent, too, IMO. They had some brilliant writers early on who really developed stories and characters, and some who just wrote some stuff using the actors on the show. The earlier show runners ran a tighter ship, I think, and that helped make the first 4 to 5 seasons hang together better. Things are hit or miss at best now. And just as the show is gaining some "legs."

 

Since the situation won't change in re the writers and Messer, I hope MGG (and secondarily, TG) will only stay as long as he's having fun and feels appreciated, and not a second longer. As soon as he leaves, so will I, probably.

Edited October 14, 2014 by normasm

[Old Dog]

My feelings exactly Normasm. I'm only still in for MGG and less so for TG since Beth appeared - though things may look up on that front. Trouble is this current team of writers are all always self congratulatory and think they are all "killing it" every show. In their eyes they can do no wrong and they do not respond well to criticism however constructive. We are stuck with them for sure and I guess we have to enjoy those rare nuggets of excellence when they come along - and otherwise just enjoy Reid's beauty!

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I sorta look at this philosophically, Cobalt. If it wasn't for the show, I may not have ever seen MGG, and the thought of that makes me sad. Do i wish the writers, from day one, had been consistent and creative with all the individual characters and team dynamics in addition to delving into the reality of the psychology behind serial criminals and kidnappers? You bet. But I have come to the conclusion that to do that, especially over a period of years (and ten is so rare!), you would probably need a very small team of writers (3 to 4) and a show runner who is aggressive and protective of the characters/team dynamic/psychology. And less shows per season.

 

I do agree with you re MGG, normasm, because he's been a revelation (sorry) as an actor, and I hope that if he does end up leaving CM he finds the success he deserves. And ten years is a long time, especially for a procedural. Maybe if I loved the show a little less, I wouldn't mourn for what was and what still could be with better people involved behind the scenes. Hell, I still bitch about what became of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that show has been off the air for a little over a decade. I hate sloppy writing and the laziness that sloppy writing implies. I want my shows to be awesome because they deserve to be awesome. Even if they're a little long in the tooth. :-)

[normasm]

Old Dog, I do sometimes wonder what would it be like if the writing staff was reduced by half and the episodes reduced by a third, would the onus on the writers make them better? I never would have thought of this had I not become a rabid fan of Breaking Bad, and the way Vince Gilligan rode herd on the writers, etc. It was his creation, and he wasn't about to let the mission "drift." Plus, he declared from the get-go a finite timeline.

Hell, I still bitch about what became of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and that show has been off the air for a little over a decade. I hate sloppy writing and the laziness that sloppy writing implies. I want my shows to be awesome because they deserve to be awesome. Even if they're a little long in the tooth. :-)

Absolutely, Costar! I felt like that about the X-Files, it really ran off the rails and was unwatchable eventually. I was so disappointed. 

[Old Dog]

Interesting thought Normasm. However I still feel the crux of the matter is definitely their push to make it more of an action cop drama and take out the cerebral look at the psychology of crime and they would have done that whatever the circumstances as they are targeting a different audience than originally. When I read some of the things on Tumblr and Facebook I often think people should prove they are actually grown up to be able to watch the show!!

 

I think that's what pains me most as for me it is dumbing down the show. Maybe it would have been better to have a finite plan than for the show to change and diminish like Buffy and The XFiles. But hey, it's early days this season. Maybe we will be pleasantly surprised. Sometimes they do appear to take note of things said.

[Wilowy]

I'm not sure how any writer would respond well to criticism of something they work so hard to present. What would that look like, I wonder, if a writer were to come out with "Yeah, that one was a piece of crap!" Heh. Probably wouldn't have a job for long. They admit when they've flubbed up, and I did hear Virgil say A Thin Line was the ep he was least proud of. I just don't expect any of them to come out and say that their writing is bad. 

 

Comparing CM to BB is kind of apples and oranges, considering the latter is part of the new television renaissance and looking to break rules and re-make television drama as we know it, whereas the former is part of the old guard. I doubt CBS would let them take CM down any similar road, inasmuch as the two of them are fundamentally different shows. 

 

I am in agreement with the "too many cooks" point of view. I think that's highly relevant to consistency, and just flat out true, in our show's case. I'd get rid of Rick, Kim, and Bruce. Of the three, the only one I think has a chance of maybe leaving would be Kim. Rick is too close to Erica and Bruce is far too popular with the other writers. 

[normasm]

Yeah, Willowy, I realize BB and CM are completely different. CM was conceived old school, and it's only in the past 4 or 5 years that cable has had the freedom to monkey with the school "curriculum." Network TV is trying to make little forays in that direction (Extant was somewhat trying, but was not entirely successful), but you're right, they could never reformulate a network show so old, not to mention successful! Oh, well, wishes and horses...

[SSAHotchner]

"The current batch".  Heh. Writers have been the same for four years now. 

That's not a good thing. 

[missmycat]

Normasm, Old Dog, I feel the same way you guys do. If CM was just casual viewing to me none of this things would even be an issue with me. Heck I see many of the same complaints in regards to other shows, but I could careless because either I don't watch the show or it's just casual viewing to me.

However with CM it's different. In all the years I've watched TV , and I'm no spring chicken, I've never fallen in love with a show, as well as it's character, the way I fell in love with CM.I guess if there was one lesson I could take away from my experience with CM is that I will never again allow myself to become as passionate about a show and it's characters as I did CM.Of course that's not to say I will never allow myself to enjoy another show.  

[missmycat]

 

 

 

I am in agreement with the "too many cooks" point of view. I think that's highly relevant to consistency, and just flat out true, in our show's case. I'd get rid of Rick, Kim, and Bruce. Of the three, the only one I think has a chance of maybe leaving would be Kim. Rick is too close to Erica and Bruce is far too popular with the other writers. 

I agree with this especially in regards to Kim, but as you rightfully pointed out Rick and Erica are extremely close. This present a problem because many people believe Rick and Kim are dating. And I can totally see EM keeping Kim Harrison on just as a favor to Rick Dunkle(who btw I think should be fired just for "200" alone) who happens to be her right hand man.  

[JMO]

Danielg342 said:

 

I think the one thing that needs to be remembered is that CM is sold as a show where the vast majority of its episodes are self-contained. It's tailor-made for syndication, and syndicators don't particularly like shows that *need* their episodes to be aired in a specific order. Thus, they like shows that wrap up the stories neatly in a tiny little bow at the end, instead of leaving several different plot threads hanging after each episode.

 

This sounds about right. And yet, I found it interesting, because it's completely converse to how I got hooked on CM.  I only came across the series in syndication, and mostly because I was too lazy to get up from the computer to turn the TV off.  At some point, I must have seen Minimal Loss, because I remember being as confused as Luke Perry about which one was the FBI agent.  (and, let's face it, Reid definitely didn't look the part!)  But what I really remember is The Instincts and how hooked I became  on the mystery of Reid and the nightmares.  I actually sought out Memoriam, so I could learn the answer.  For me, it was precisely the connection between the two episodes that got me involved with CM.  I ended up falling in love with the character and, eventually the rest of the team and the series.  If there hadn't been a serialized theme, I don't think it would have happened for me.

 

Just a side note  Is anyone else irritated with what A&E has chosen to edit out of the episodes?

Edited October 15, 2014 by JustMyOpinion

[JMO]

 

Then someone comes along and says, "Hey! This product has been around a long time, so let's shake things up!" They make it all kinds of crazy colors, mess with the formula, jack up the price, and lower the quality. But because it LOOKS jazzier, they think people won't care about the diminished quality. That they'll be so dazzled by the new look, they won't notice.

 

Would that be anything like 'New Coke'?  Because it would be nice if CM followed suit.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

They wanted to float that, knowing that's where our heads would go, but at the same time Erica said "JJ would never have an affair." Personally, I don't mind red herrings, but I don't like to feel fucked with. 

 

So with that said, would you perhaps concede that Erica does have issues as a showrunner that could stand to be addressed?

 

Just a side note  Is anyone else irritated with what A&E has chosen to edit out of the episodes?

 

I do notice that A&E bleeps it out when the characters call someone a son of a bitch when ION doesn't, but I haven't noticed much difference as to actual content. Then again, I have a mind like a steel sieve more often than not, so you can't go by me.

[JMO]

 

I do notice that A&E bleeps it out when the characters call someone a son of a bitch when ION doesn't, but I haven't noticed much difference as to actual content. Then again, I have a mind like a steel sieve more often than not, so you can't go by me.

 

It's not the language, because I wouldn't mind that at all.  I never complain when someone chooses to sound intelligent!  I know there have been other things that have made me moan, but the only one that comes immediately to mind is when Emily (I forget which episode, but it's when Reid is deciphering a code within an unsub's writing)......anyway, Emily pokes Reid in the cheek and quips, "seems so lifelike".  It's a great scene, and a great line, and A&E cut it.  Annoying.

[Wilowy]

So with that said, would you perhaps concede that Erica does have issues as a showrunner that could stand to be addressed?

 

Oh sure I do agree there. That's an easy one. I know she's a fan of 'Whapoww! AWESOME!! Roundhouse kicks!!', and we could definitely see some more of the team sharing quietly, and I could surely go without another Kim Harrison episode my entire life. It's just that we aren't really likely to get that, and I don't want to go through every episode we have left wishing it were different. These are still our people, our team, and I'd rather soak it in, take it on its own merits, and review it based on what the show is now, than compare it to an ephemerous intangible that we are not likely to see again. I do know that these people (the writers and producers) work very hard to bring us this show, and they care deeply about the characters. That makes me root for them, it really does. 

[normasm]

Would that be anything like 'New Coke'?  Because it would be nice if CM followed suit.

You can never go back. Even when Coca Cola went back to what they said was their old formula, people didn't believe them and they didn't recover for years. CM wouldn't have that kinda time...

[Wilowy]

Great! So let's appreciate what we have in our team, that we still are able to see Reid, Hotch, Garcia, Morgan, Rossi, JJ after ten years, possibly look at it through a slightly different lens, and maybe... I dunno... enjoy it! 

[normasm]

It's not the language, because I wouldn't mind that at all.  I never complain when someone chooses to sound intelligent!  I know there have been other things that have made me moan, but the only one that comes immediately to mind is when Emily (I forget which episode, but it's when Reid is deciphering a code within an unsub's writing)......anyway, Emily pokes Reid in the cheek and quips, "seems so lifelike".  It's a great scene, and a great line, and A&E cut it.  Annoying.

I was saying this a while back. In the one with Chester Hardwike, they edit the scene with Hotch and Reid afterwards. In "Run" they cut the scene with Henry and the ring magic trick. In 100, they edit out the part of Rossi's Strauss interview where he's snarky with her about the price of gold. I could go on and on, as i'm sure you could. If i could watch all day, I'd keep a running list, but i have to work sometime...

[alexvillage]

So, I just watched the last 15 or 20 minutes of Brothers Hotchner. It was the first time and here are a few points:

Beth's apartment walls are very ugly

Rossi to JJ: I think I liked you better before you were a profiler. We all did, Rossi. We all did

Beth, Jack and Hotch together cannot fake the happy family portrait and that kid is a terrible actor

I think I am "freak-walks-in-the-room-free" since I am pretty sure, no matter how tired I am, I can never sleep in a hotel room without the security lock and I would jump if someone tried to open the door

Garcia supercomputer is awesome magical, but it cannot prevent an unsub hack. And I am tired of super unsubs with unlimited knowledge of everything and unlimited resources

The ending, Garcia freaking out and walking backwards in despair is worthy a "bad horror movie scene award". WTF? That's not a rational reaction, not even for Garcia. Did she think Freddy Krueger would jump out of the screens?

[SSAHotchner]

So, I just watched the last 15 or 20 minutes of Brothers Hotchner. It was the first time and here are a few points:

Beth's apartment walls are very ugly

Rossi to JJ: I think I liked you better before you were a profiler. We all did, Rossi. We all did

Beth, Jack and Hotch together cannot fake the happy family portrait and that kid is a terrible actor

I think I am "freak-walks-in-the-room-free" since I am pretty sure, no matter how tired I am, I can never sleep in a hotel room without the security lock and I would jump if someone tried to open the door

Garcia supercomputer is awesome magical, but it cannot prevent an unsub hack. And I am tired of super unsubs with unlimited knowledge of everything and unlimited resources

The ending, Garcia freaking out and walking backwards in despair is worthy a "bad horror movie scene award". WTF? That's not a rational reaction, not even for Garcia. Did she think Freddy Krueger would jump out of the screens?

Yes to everything you said. :)