How Downton Abbey should have ended

[RedWolf]

I know that we still have the CS but I want to know how you would have ended the show. Please post your ideas. I don't care if it is a crackfic idea (like Robert getting eaten by a T-Rex) or even if Mary still gets with Henry at the end because I know, from what I have seen, that you guys would actually make it believable.

[vesperholly]

Mary: About Marigold. Who she really is.

Edith: Marigold is my daughter.

Bertie: (pauses) Right. Of course. (turns to Mary) Edith told me all about her. Isn't she such a lovely child? I'm so pleased to welcome her and Edith into my new home. What a happy way to start our lives as Marquess and Marchioness. (smiles at Edith)

Mary: (looks mortified, is speechless)

 

END

[Glade]

Edith gets married to Bertie at the end of the episode, while Mary is left standing alone, drenched in rain in the cemetary at the end of the episode; everyone has left her, including Tom and Anna.  Most of the servants, in fact, have moved on to better lives running their farms, bed and breakfasts, etc.  Thomas moved to London, and found a job as a butler under a gay boss, who only hires gay men, thus giving him multiple dating opportunities.  Tom has begun to write again, and is working for a leftist newspaper while living in London.  The end. 

[Andorra]

Tom and Mary together. It would have made the most sense.

 

Edith married to Bertie is okay.

 

Isobel shall marry Lord Merton.

 

I would have killed Robert off, because it would have made sense to see Tom and Mary carrying on leading the estate into the modern world.

 

Anna and Bates should leave and open a hotel.

 

Carson and Hughes should retire.

 

Thomas would have been the new Butler, Mary and Tom would move into one wing of the house with the children and open up the rest of it to the public.

 

Molesley a teacher is good. I would like the hint of a romance with Baxter. Baxter would stay at the big house for Cora. Mary would give up having a lady's maid,

 

Daisy no idea, don't care. The same goes for Andy.

 

Mr Mason and Mrs Patmore should marry.

[DianeDobbler]

Hmmm-

 

Edith/Bertie/Mary play out as Vesper describes, with Bertie quite cheerful and almost offhand about starting titled lives - perhaps with an equally offhand remark that this isn't his accustomed breakfast conversation but perhaps at the mere level of ladyship things have become coarsened  for some people.

 

This is probably cheating, but all things considered Tom should have ended with Rose - I think Lily James and Allen Leech would have played wonderfully together so I'll retcon three seasons and have that happen. They each encourage the "revolutionary" side of each other and earn their livings while maintaining warm relations with family.

 

Thomas has another opportunity to go to the United States, he takes it, where his background as butler to a British lord (Americans don't bother with distinctions like "under-butler"), his looks, and his British accent make him a highly paid status symbol, competed for and in-demand. He ends up butler to someone nouveau riche (very riche indeed)  in Hollywood and makes connections in the film business, branching out somehow (design, working for one of the studios, etc.), with his employer his most enthusiastic patron. Needless to say Hollywood is a much more congenial atmosphere for him socially as well.

 

Baxter and Mosley marry and have a late in life daughter who ends up going to, and graduating from, university.

 

Carson dies, in short order Mrs. Carson, nee Hughes, meets a lovely chap at Mrs. Patmore's B&B; Mrs. Patmore keeps company with Mr. Mason and things take their natural course.

 

Mary marries whomever, remains at Downton, all the kiddies save George are gone to their own establishments with their respective parents and stepparents. Despite Robert's ulcer scare, he and Cora are still under sixty, and in relatively robust health, so each couple feels like third wheels around the other. Since Mary's husband begins to feel bored and useless hanging round the estate, which is well-managed without him, he spends more and more time on the racing circuit, a circuit where Mary feels rather useless, so she spends most of her time at Downton or attending fashion shows, and before long the two find they've got separate lives, and only quarrel over what needs to be done for appearances.

Edited November 12, 2015 by DianeDobbler

[RedWolf]

Thomas has another opportunity to go to the United States, he takes it, where his background as butler to a British lord (Americans don't bother with distinctions like "under-butler"), his looks, and his British accent make him a highly paid status symbol, competed for and in-demand. He ends up butler to someone nouveau riche (very riche indeed)  in Hollywood and makes connections in the film business, branching out somehow (design, working for one of the studios, etc.), with his employer his most enthusiastic patron. Needless to say Hollywood is a much more congenial atmosphere for him socially as well.

 

I would have loved to see this!

[DianeDobbler]

I'd have especially loved it if he were recruited as an accent coach for Hwood stars new to talkies. He could plum up his tones a bit, still be completely off, and nobody would know as long as it sounded British-ish. They'd be enraptured by his English expressions too.

[DeccaMitford]

I love the idea of Thomas going to Hollywood, but my secret-until-now-I-guess dream for him is that he runs into that scheming duke he hooked up with way back in the first episode. The Duke of Crowborough has been rendered just slightly nobler and wiser by his war experiences, but otherwise they're still a match made in evil heaven. They travel the world together, conning and fleecing everyone they meet.

 

I really hope that if Edith does marry Bertie, she doesn't give up the magazine. I want her, Laura and Audrey (and Spratt AKA Miss Cassandra Jones) to get into goofy adventures together in the publishing world of 1920s London. Bertie can make the coffee and bring the sandwiches, he seemed good at that. In the end I want Edith to be the sort-of Nancy Mitford of the family, and write semi-nostalgic (but mostly comic) novels about the English upper crust.

 

Mary's married to Talbot now, that happened, but I think it would be absolutely hysterical if the marriage is a failure and if Talbot is a terrible husband. Mary is most entertaining to me when things aren't going her way and she can't do anything about it, and Michelle Dockery's bitch face is a thing of beauty. For her to have been proven right about Talbot being wrong for her would go a long way towards making that plot make any sense at all. Mary is a lot of things, but she's not and never has been stupid, and she tends to know her own mind.

[saki]

I would have liked:

 

Edith and Bertie - Julian Fellowes somehow sold me on them totally within a very few episodes.

 

Rosamund to reveal that Edith is actually her daughter - I feel like this would explain a lot.

 

Tom to be in the US or in Ireland - I do not find his conversion to Downton at all credible and I feel like it actually reflects really badly on him that he apparently doesn't have any interest at all in his own family.

 

Molesley and Baxter - I really don't understand why they couldn't at least show them holding hands during the finale, it wouldn't have taken any extra time.

 

Carson to die, leaving Thomas as butler and Mrs Hughes and Mrs Patmore to run the B&B together

 

I don't really care about Mary - I would find it mildly amusing if she had to leave Downton for some reason (more financial problems, or George dying or Patrick reappearing) but that's about it.

 

Isobel taking an interest in George.

[MissLucas]

Cousin Patrick returns, Robert has had enough and hands over the estate to Patrick who  sends Mary and her 'mechanic' on their merry ways. George gets a chance at a life not encumbered by the constant worry of how to keep Downton afloot. Cousin Patrick turns Downton into a very posh hotel - the dream of all Hollywood tycoons. Thomas will be the manager handling difficult guests with grace.

 

Edith has a fabulous life in London, enjoys publishing her lady's magazine and has a great love affair with Bertie without getting married - not because of Marigold but simply because Lady Edith does not want to live the life of a Marchioness. As for the next heir: Bertie trusts the family tree. Their love is the talk and envy of London society - incl. Lady Mary who's not happy in her terraced house. Henry's racing career never took off because he was never any good at it anyway. He has to work as a sales man for cars instead. Whatever money they owned went down the drain on Black Friday (Mary having inherited dear Papa's financial acumen).

 

Isobel and Violet have decided to finally become BBF's and are currently staying in a great villa in a Mediterranean resort (think Enchanted April) without any wishes to return to foggy England. The locals fear and love them in equal measures.

 

Daisy has reunited with Miss Bunting and they both set out to the USSR to check out communist utopia - never to be heard of thereafter.

 

Mrs Patmore helps Mrs Hughes to solve her little problem and then they run the B&B together.

 

Molesely and Baxter tie the knot. After a while Molesely decides that teaching isn't all that it's cracked up to be and they move to London and open the first  Husband & Wife Detective Agency in the city.

 

Anna and Mr Bates have twins and move to Lark Rise (obviously I have no idea what to do with these two).

 

Robert and Cora have moved into the Dowager's house. Robert is successfully breeding dogs and Cora is embroidering very ugly coats.

 

Tom has returned to new Republic of Ireland where he becomes a well respected politician due to his diplomatic skills and knack for compromise.

 

 *phew*

[TheGreenKnight]

Mary - Alone or with Tom, running the estate.

 

Edith and Thomas - Married to Bertie, employs Thomas who tries to do things differently there and meets a (male) employee at Bertie's residence who clearly takes an interest in him.

 

Hughes - Carson dies and Hughes partners with Patmore. I would've liked all three of them to continue their friendships as partners or neighbors before Carson turned out to be an awful husband.

 

Patmore - Marries William's father, and runs her B&B with Hughes.

 

Daisy  - ? Who cares. Takes on Patmore's role, I guess.

 

Isobel and Violet - Stays single BFFs with Violet.

 

Bates/Anna - They take over the Carson/Hughes roles at Downton.

 

Molesley/Baxter - Molesley as a teacher and pretty much what's probably going to happen: married.

 

Alternative ending for Thomas: He and Baxter take over for Carson/Hughes while Bates/Anna decide to leave service to raise a family. Thomas and Henry have a thing going on. Of course, bad ending for Mary, but she'd have one anyway with Henry.

[DianeDobbler]

 

Molesely and Baxter tie the knot. After a while Molesely decides that teaching isn't all that it's cracked up to be and they move to London and open the first  Husband & Wife Detective Agency in the city.

I can actually see this perfectly, except I see Molesley continuing on as a teacher because he loves it, but he's somehow naturally drawn into these detective cases. We've all seen the premise before, but with these two, it would be brilliant. I think Baxter has saved her wages and owns a piece of her own business, so looking in on that isn't full time for her, and she and her hubby can work together.

[Andorra]

LOL to the "Thomas and Henry" having a thing going on. I actually read a Brary fanfiction where that was a surprising turn and I loved it!

Edited November 13, 2015 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

Maybe the best and more likeliest plot would have been that, after Robert lost Cora's money in the beginning of S3, there would be no Shire inheritance, especially as it so obviously was an afterthought (Matthew said, he had no idea that Shire was rich as he lived modestly). Downton should have been sold and Crawleys would have moved to the house of only ten bedrooms. It wouldn't have been difficult to invent plots about how they would react and that would show what kind of people they really are. (Cora already showed that her basic values were sound; she didn't reproach even a bit Robert for his foolish investment. Instead, Mary's values were shallow - inheriting a position was all, not making position to oneself).

But as it was, I would have hoped that

* Mary: who really cares whom she married? The most important thing would have been that when she had been a chance to be rude to Edith, she would have checked herself and thus shown that she has learned at least something in life.

* Edith: she would have moved to London with Marigold long ago and been the editor of her paper herself. She would have fallen in love with a self-made man who would married her and accepted Marigold because he would have cared less about people's opinions. (I don't have anything against Bertie but he is a man who likes to live in the country. At least he wouldn't have been a Marquis.)

* Tom: if he left for the USA, he should have stayed there or come only to visit. But rather he should have stayed and continued as a journalist. While abandoning revolution (which always was more words than deeds), he would have advocated reforms. Finally he would have run for Parliament as a Labor candidate. He would have fallen in love in a woman who would have made a career of her own and she would have been a good step-mother to Sybil.

* Thomas: he would have stopped to talk about "roots" and realized that he would never be accepted by other servants at Downton after he had mistreated them. He would have moved to London or New York, found a job as a butler of someone who had recently become rich and at last found a love.

* other servants: most of them would have found a life outside Downton as they already seem to do.

[Future Cat Lady]

It should've ended at S3. 

[Roseanna]

Looking back I think that one of the mistakes JF made *before* was that he never tried to use real social differences on the basis on the drama.

* Tom could have run for the Parliament as a Labor candidate against a Conservative candidate supported by Crawleys

* Blake thought about the benefit of the whole society (how to feed the population) whereas Mary thought only of her own interests and that of her own class

* Lord Sinderby was a banker and thus an adversary towards the land-owning aristocracy

Because there was no real fighting with high sates, JF had to make much ado about which suitor Mary will chose, and get Bates and Anna as murder suspects endlessly.

[SusanSunflower]

I think Fellowes took the "serious critics" like a dagger -- and decided to write for the audience that loved him, quite possibly with a passive aggressive undercurrent. He loved success, but he had assumed he was more talented, better, smarter and more subtle (and more historically accurate) than they found him.  Titanic was not better received. His Boston project languished. I suspect that his vast success, once achieved, was humbling ... his pretensions publicly squashed. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-16609589

Edited December 5, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, I think the article in the link you posted makes some fair criticisms of the show. I personally wasn't expecting it to be historically accurate but yeah,  there were moments that I could cringe over and I am not a scholar.

 

And Fellowes, I think, has a very romantic and wistful view of the lifestyle. In one of the script books, one of his asides was how as a kid visiting rich people or rich relatives with a fancy estate, how positively awesome and civilized it was to wake up to the fire already blazing in the fireplace and all I could think was.... "Yeah, nice if you're the one who doesn't have to do it". Fellowes also pretty consistently writes the lower class characters in a fairly condescending way. If you're not rich, then you're a dumbass (Daisy, various kitchen workers and footmen, Mosesly to a point) you're loyal beyond reason (Carson, WIlliam, Mrs. Patmore, Anna, Bates) or you're just a straight up terrible person (Thomas, O'Brien, Denker, Spratt) If you manage to achieve anything, its only due to the fact that you were graced by rich people.

 

I mean, I absolutely enjoy Downton Abbey but honestly, I know just what Julian Fellowes thinks of my English relatives because he's a snob.

[Tetraneutron]

Of course it's unrealistic. So are lawyer procedurals where the partners work on interesting cases with important ethical implications every week. So are doctor shows where everyone's a specialist in every discipline and graduated top of their class at Harvard and they form a personal relationship with their patients. For that matter, so are most historical dramas where all the sympathetic characters have contemporary attitudes and are the first to embrace the technologies and trends. 

 

If people wanted to watch a show where partway through season three everyone moves out of Downton and sells it to an American businessman, they'd be watching a different show. I've complained about the show's allergy to conflict, about how the only servants who want to escape that life are either evil or written off quickly (Gwen, Alfred) and how any character who doesn't toe the "aristocracy is awesome" line either changes or is a bad guy. (They stopped writing Sybil and Tom as revolutionaries pretty quick, and then made it so all the sympathetic characters had modern viewpoints anyway). 

 

It might have been interested if class tensions made their way into the plot more (like in the first two seasons) but honestly, this show is no less realistic than most of television. It's not the job of a soap opera to be a documentary. Let's not act like anyone is calling for a return of Gilded Age politics on the grounds that this show made it look so awesome. 

[SusanSunflower]

cough -- and we all know what he really thinks about Americans ... as if it were concealed under a veneer of charm and politeness ....  

Gosford Park was blessed with Robert Altman, a great cast, a great location, and a great cameraman ... but -- for a murder story -- there's remarkably little mystery or suspense ... just some stereotypic (send-up) snobbishness wrt to the stupidity of the police and the narcissism of the gentry (who really didn't give a damn about the murdered man, much less whodunnit) ... It would have been a very different movie without Maggie Smith's (whose central financial crisis was more surprising and suspenseful than the murder) and the stunning turn by Jeremy Northam crooning the brilliant work of Ivor Novello ...  I attribute much of the sly humor to Bob Balaban (co-writer credit); no matter how jolly Fellowes may be in real life, Downton Abby is truly extraordinary in its lack of levity -- not matter how shocking Violet's zingers may be. 

 

eta: As I said before, I think he started fairly ambitious and then -- between PBS and the critics and likely the demands of the job -- quickly set his sights lower ... L'affair Pamuk made promises and "took risks" we never ever really saw again ... That lusty and adventuresome Mary vanished ... see also "firebrand" Tom ... 

Edited December 5, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

L'affair Pamuk made promises and "took risks" we never ever really saw again ...

 

Which frankly surprised me because almost everyone I know who got hooked on the show got hooked by the Pamuk affair.

 

And yes, the constant refrain of how awful America and Americans are got old. ;)

 

I actually didn't really care for Gosford Park - to me it took way too long to get into the murder....

I do wonder how ambiguous the ending of the show will be - I have a suspicion we're going to be beaten about the head with "Mary is SO HAPPY with Henry!" and I question whether Dockery can carry it off.

[SusanSunflower]

I had to watch it 3 times to realize who was supposed-to-have been guilty ... I really resented that.  It was a very very important return-to-form for Altman in handling a complex multilayered story, a cast of hundreds and dozens of filming locations -- and it was his "magic" that created the illusion of a resolution to the murder mystery, etc.   And it was fabulous to look at with all the dark or dim hallways and nooks ... the ability to be alone in misery or act unseen in such a busy crowd, etc. 

Film buffs will watch it ... I had trouble with so many really unlikeable characters, some really quite gratuitously mean or harsh ... I felt it needed a mother-son moment ... even just a look across a room ... that was a story hole 

[ZoloftBlob]

I thought the mystery was clever but I admit, I didn't buy the convoluted tale. The wealthy noble has an illegitimate son with a woman who then becomes one of his maids. She is sister to the cook, and they have some unresolved argument over... loving the wealthy noble? The illegitimate son shows up to the party as a servant and plans to stab the wealthy noble, who in true trashy mystery fashion, has given everyone in the house a reason to kill him. Only, his mom, the housekeeper, who has confessed to everyone at the house party that she had a child with said wealthy noble....poisons the wealthy noble first, to protect her son and keep him off the hook for murder.

 

Because apparently lying your way into someone's house and stabbing their recently deceased body while not knowing they are dead is not apparently a crime in England. At the same time it is more clever than the Greene plot....

[photo fox]

To come back to how Downton should have ended, I'll always be disappointed that they didn't at least try Madeline Allsop with Tom. I really liked her, and think they might have made a good match. I think Tom should have moved to London, ran into her somewhere, and developed a relationship.

[SusanSunflower]

about Gosford: Actually my third watching was to see just how much of the "business" of the movie was simply "production values" ... how much of the dialog and interactions upstairs with all those "pointless" characters was just "filler" ... and I think that was the insider love/joke of the movie -- because it all was ... pretty much every bit of what we spent 2 hours watching was red herring and fluff ... 

Edited December 6, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Photofox, I agree about Madelaine Allsop - I liked the character a great deal and I think its unfortunate she ended up being a "one and done"

[Andorra]

To come back to how Downton should have ended, I'll always be disappointed that they didn't at least try Madeline Allsop with Tom. I really liked her, and think they might have made a good match. I think Tom should have moved to London, ran into her somewhere, and developed a relationship.

 

 

I agree about Madeline Allsop. I thought she would have been wonderful for Tom. Instead we got Bunting, urgh and Madeline Allsop disappeared forever. Why did JF bring her in in the first place?

 

I sometimes think JF must have been mad at Allen Leech for some reason. I can't explain why he got such nonsense to play in S4,5 and now 6. I wonder if JF meant Sarah Bunting to be endgame and blamed Allen Leech's lack of enthusiasm in acting "enchanted" for the negative response she got with the audience? I have no idea why she was in the show and for 8 episodes no less! Why didn't JF write someone nice in for Tom? It was too weird and I bet the smile we saw between Tom and editor in the CS trailer will be all romance he'll get in the end. 

[Andorra]

sorry, double post. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

Andorra, I can't believe that Tom would be interested in a society girl, however nice. An independent woman who earned her own living was the one to Tom but of course there must have on the other hand chemistry, on the other hand obstacles.

However, there was an odd double standard that Sarah Bunter couldn't be accepted because she was rude towards Crawleys whereas Mary was in the beginning rude towards Blake because he worked for the whole country's agriculture, not only to save big estates.

Also, it was odd that Mary showed a willingness to accept any woman Tom chose. Maybe that was meant to show that she wasn't jealous and therefore not romantically interested in Tom but it was entirely out of her snobbish character. Before all, if Tom married, he couldn't be as close to her as before and there was never even a sign that Mary fought and won her selfishness for his sake but the dilemma was entirely ignored.

[Roseanna]

Two examples how JF treats his material:

* general matters: when the agriculture of DA is modernized by taking the tenants' land, we aren't shown those many tenants who lose their lands and homes but only the one exception, Mr Drewe, whom Lord Granton allows to stay. In other words, the injustice and inrquality of the whole system is sidelined because of empathy of Lord Granton in one exception.

* characters: Carson's words and deeds show again and again that he is a bully, jingoist and bigot. When he had to chose between empathy and social conventions, he chooses the latter. In this he an image of his time, so there is nothing wrong in this in itself. The problem is how it is possibly that he is shown in a positive light. That happens in two ways. First, he adores Lady Mary and in her lowest moments it's he who comforts her. Second, he has intimate talks with Mrs Hughes who almost always represents both common sense and warm heart and for some mysterious reason, begins to love him (marriage scenes show it was a mistake).

[Roseanna]

Concerning the sexual morals JF had to struggle with the morals of the DA's time and our time.

Obviously JF wanted with the Pamuk scandal to show Mary as a girl who was brave enough to break morals and social conventions, although not too light to get (lets forget that it seemed rather like a rape). It made a good story as the fear of scandal hang like the sword of Damocles during two seasons. But in the end JF couldn't let Matthew to behave like a man in his time probably would have done for the audience used for a different kind of morals would have condemned him for it.

Whereas Mary was threatened by scandal because of servants gossip and Edith's letter, Edith had the choice to bury the evidence (literally through abortion or letting the child stay in Switzerland without mother's name in the birth certificate) and that's what the woman in her time would have done as to keep the outer "honor" in he sight of the world was most important. After that she could have married Bertie, certain that her secret was safe. But then the audience could hardly accepted that she "deserved" happiness. As she chose to keep her illegitimate daughter and care for her, that would have been enough to prevent the marriage with a Marquis even if Edith had told it herself. But that would make the audience resent Bertie, although at that time marriage with a man of position wasn't only a private matter, so JF have to present that the reason was "only" Edith's lies.

[Andorra]

I think Sarah Bunting failed because of the actress. Sorry to say so but she was so harsh and over-feisty, if she was intended as a real love interest for Tom, she was a miscast. She looked like a dwarf next to the rest of the cast in the show (the actress is only 4'9 and next to Michelle, Lily and Elizabeth McGovern she looked completely out of place). And her voice? Awful. She snarled everything she said and sounded always obnoxious. It wasn't just that she was rude to the Crawleys, she was also so disrespectful to Tom. She walked completely over him on several occasions. 

 

I don't think Madeline Allsop was a "society girl". In the few scenes we had with her, we learned that she was pretty realistic, modern and honest. I think she could have been a great character to explore more. Instead she was just there for Harold who was just there to add a prominent American actor to the show for the American audience. Very pointless to the story even though I did enjoy them as a pair. 

[Tetraneutron]

I think Sarah Bunting failed because of the actress. Sorry to say so but she was so harsh and over-feisty, if she was intended as a real love interest for Tom, she was a miscast. She looked like a dwarf next to the rest of the cast in the show (the actress is only 4'9 and next to Michelle, Lily and Elizabeth McGovern she looked completely out of place). And her voice? Awful. She snarled everything she said and sounded always obnoxious. It wasn't just that she was rude to the Crawleys, she was also so disrespectful to Tom. She walked completely over him on several occasions. 

 

I think that actress was cast BECAUSE the character was supposed to be horrible and hated by the audience. That's why they cast someone average-looking and frumped her up. Let's face it, JF is a giant snob. He loves the aristocracy and romanticizes the old system. Sure, Sybil can be a revolutionary because she's well-born, but an actual working- or middle-class person who wants to move up or tear down the system? The worst. Sir Richard Carlisle? Evil. Edna the maid who tried to baby trap Tom? Evil. Ethel, the maid who wanted to eat crepes Suzette and live like the rich? Punished by getting knocked up. Thomas was evil when he hated being working class, but now that he worships the Crawleys he's a good guy. 

 

So of course the character who dislikes the old system and doesn't worship the Crawleys is going to be horrible. Shrill, mean, tacky, pushy, everything we don't like. 

 

I thought Madeline Allsop was a non-entity myself and I agree she was just there to give Paul Giamatti something to do. But she also illustrates how wonderful the old system is. Not only is she pretty and sweet and glamorous, she shares our modern values. She doesn't agree with being a gold-digger (even though that's what her father wanted her to do) so we forgive her and like her. 

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, I agree. Logically a woman with whom Tom shared his political views and who had also become someone on her own and would have shown to Tom that he would never "belong" in Downton but must make his own life on his own terms, but JF wanted to show altogether different.

Formerly Tom at last worker as an estate manager, but then he comes back in order to live in the house of his ex-father-in-law where he can never marry. He walks with Mary - but there has been no talk about salary. He plan a garage - although Sybil said to Cora that Tom mustn't go backwards after working as a journalist in Dublin.

[Roseanna]

Looking back, I think JF succeeded with Mary in S1 and S2, even if he used all the old tricks of genre. Unlike some others I don't think that because there was a threat of scandal because of the Pamuk affair, it should also have been materialized for that would have been no surprise. It was quite enough to make Mary suffer as an unwilling bride of Carlisle and finally, encouraged by Robert and Matthew, decide that a "ten days' wonder" wasn't worth of suffering of lifetime.

It was never quite sure if Mary didn't accept Matthew's proposal because he might not be an heir, but because she didn't find courage to tell about Pamuk. In any case, she suffered of that mistake, too (although there was by no means sure that Matthew would have been as forgiving as after the war). And if she had followed Violet's advice (accept now and he will love you forever, and if your fathers will get a son, you can cancel the engagement), wouldn't that been the greatest betrayal? Ans if the child were a girl, Matthew would never know of it.

For some reason that I can't understand JF decided to end S6 in a quite different way. As many had said, Mary behaves horribly towards Edith, but there are no consequences of this save Tom and Edith telling her some truths. Although Violet tells her to make peace with herself and with her sister, nothing of this kind happens. She simply whistles and Henry comes to her, they hurry to marry and all are happy for her - and Edith comes to her, not vice versa.

That simply isn't how interesting stories are made. Jane Austen didn't let Darcy propose again when Elizabeth visited Pemberley for he had to show in his deeds that he was a changed man also towards others than her and Gardiners. In other words, the characters had to show that they had really grown.

[Eolivet]

Which is why I absolutely believe Mary will play an integral role in reuniting Edith and Bertie. Fellowes wants us to see her as changed: the first step was working for the estate, the second was marrying a man with no title and a not very respectable profession for love (debate it at will -- it was his intent that it was for love) and the final step, to me, would be reconciling with her sister. Edith's speech about how they will be the only ones to remember Sybil and Matthew and their parents "until it will mean more than our mutual dislike" was foreshadowing if ever I saw it. Edith has extended the olive branch by attending Mary's wedding -- now Mary must make the next move. And I believe she will.

[skyways]

Fellowes wants us to see her as changed: the first step was working for the estate, the second was marrying a man with no title and a not very respectable profession for love (debate it at will -- it was his intent that it was for love) and

 

Yah! It was sooo subtle that the character herself did not know that she has changed!! Rubbish and ingredients!  

 

I agree with everything Susanflower and Roseanna said above. I seriously believed he was going to go that direction after Season 3 with the coming of the new Labour Government which was introduced the first episode of Season 5, the changing power shift within the society ( as represented by both Blake and Bunting), and emerging of the lower class (as represented by Daisy and to an extent Jack Ross). Yet we got From Russia with love, Bunting and endless Dinner fights and Mary/Tony that went nowhere. I didn't know what people meant when they used to say Downton was soapy (ok it used to offend me) but these last few seasons finally explained it to me. Not that it was wrong it of itself but when you consider the intertwining of real history and the lives of Downton that was Seasons 1 and 2 and a part of 3, you have to shake your head at the serious downturn in focus.

I remember watching an interview with Fellowes when he was asked this some seasons ago ( I think it was between 4 and 5) about his response to people who think it's gone inaccurate and soapy. His response at the time puzzled me. He said and I paraphrase that real-life is basically soapy, n'est pas? I remember listening to that and saying 'meaning what'? Now I know.

Edited December 8, 2015 by skyways

[Roseanna]

Eolivet, even if Mary helped Edith and Bertie to be reunited, that didn't *mean* anything because it doesn't cost her anything.

If she could have risen over her envy that Edith becomes a Marchioness and checked her urge to do her harm, that would shown that she has changed.

[Roseanna]

Skyways loaned JF saying that "real-life is basically soapy"

Well, it isn't. Although there are unexpected and unlikely happenings in the real life, there is a difference to a soap, f.ex.:

- a person who is paralyzed downwards *can* irl get back his ability to walk and have sex, but in soap this *always* happens to the hero and heroine

- a person *can* irl get an totally unexpected heritage or win in lottery just when he or she desperately needs money, but in soap this *always* happens to the hero and heroine

- a person who loves somebody other than his/her spouse or fiancee *can* irl become free when the spouse/fiancee dies, but in soap this *always* happens to the hero and heroine (whereas his/her true *never* dies in soap but it *can* happen irl)

- and if course a person who is wrongly condemned to death *always* becomes free in soap whereas irl the sentence *can* really be carried out

That's not to say that a soap can be entertaining if it's well done.

[ZoloftBlob]

a person who is paralyzed downwards *can* irl get back his ability to walk and have sex, but in soap this *always* happens to the hero and heroine

 

The problem of Matthew's paralysis is that it is soapy and did happen to the hero of the tale, and worse, is pretty medically implausible. I mean, they said he *broke his spine*. There was never any wavering on that. When the miracle of the serving tray occured, then suddenly Matthew had "spinal shock" which is a real thing but not something that would have taken close to a year to resolve. Its cheap and it cheapens the real struggles of soldiers with injuries. It was a cheesy as hell soap opera convention when my mom started watching the Young and The Restless, and JF can wave his hands and insist its medically *possible* - all sorts of things are - but its certain not medically plausible

 

a person *can* irl get an totally unexpected heritage or win in lottery just when he or she desperately needs money, but in soap this *always* happens to the hero and heroine

 

Another soap convention that works *once* - It worked well with putting Matthew in line to inherit when the Titanic sank. It starts to suck when Matthew is inheriting the equally unlikely gigantic fortune of formally middle class lawyer Reggie Swire. It becomes laughable when two other men, Charles Blake and Bertie, become heirs under the same exact premise.

 

and if course a person who is wrongly condemned to death *always* becomes free in soap whereas irl the sentence *can* really be carried out

 

THis - the Bates get out of jail card - I would have accepted if the whole "Bates murdered Vera" conviction hadn't been so weird. I mean, go back and look at that... was there ever any actual evidence that Bates murdered Vera? And he didn't win an appeal, his sentence was just.... ignored? Because maybe Vera ate an arsenic pie?

 

I mean, *arsenic pie*!

[DianeDobbler]

I've heard the "life is soapy" excuse from every show runner. It's disingenuous, because yes, things happen to people, but in real life, all the things don't happen to the same person or people.

 

I remember Matthew Weiner saying that the story where Joan slept with the Jaguar guy to get a partnership happens in real life. Well yes, I believe women of that time (and men) and even now had sex with clients or for business reasons, or were expected to deliver in order to sure up job security or something. I DON'T believe it was really common for women in administration to sleep with a client and be awarded a partnership by her bosses in return.

 

Anyway, Downton probably could have used with being more soapy. It's as if Fellowes used up all his soap in S2 what with Richard Carlisle, Lavinia, the war, the wheelchair, the Pamuk secret, Robert's financial disasters, Thomas having the screws put to him by O'Brien, not to mention Bates, and after that Fellowes was done and just kept the messy stuff off camera.

 

My measure of character growth is to have the character recognize something in themselves. The series finale, where Fellowes tried a sort of familiar show runner sleight of hand - using an event that interests the audience (in this case Edith/Bertie, and Mary destroying Edith's chances for happiness) and then at the peak moment, switch focus to the thing that interests only HIM (in this case, Mary's supposed self-torture about Henry) - was ineptly done and very very forced, irritating, but I think we did see that recognition happen. Mary called herself out in front of Anna. She sent everyone away when Edith showed up, and treated Edith with respect. The first conversation of equals - maybe Edith being superior even - they've ever had. Edith IS superior at this stage - her life isn't completely derailed by romantic disappointment. So in any event, I think we were meant to see that Mary knew she was wrong, knew she had acted horribly, and instead of dismissing it, truly expected Edith to hate her forever, and deserve it. Of course all of that stuff was garbled up with the Henry nonsense.

[Roseanna]

DianeDobbler, the problem is that Mary didn't realize that she had behaved horribly towards Edith on her own but first Tom and then Edith had literally hit the truth to her head and called her a liar when she tried to claim that she didn't mean it.

Even later she said that she didn't know why she did that - even though Cora had warned her to show jealousy after learning that Bertie had become a Marquess and Edith had said on the breakfast table that Mary can't bear that she is better off than her. It was rather foolish from Edith to be honest in the situation - in a way it provoked Mary, though it's no excuse.

And then Edith had to explain that Mary does wicked things to her when she is unhappy. I don't think that it's an explanation at all - except perhaps why *Edith* wrote to the Turkish embassy about Pamuk.

[Eolivet]

I guess I'm unsure how to respond to this, Roseanna. Yes, Mary could've been the bigger person, but she wasn't. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that because Mary isn't suffering enough or giving up enough, her penance is somehow inadequate if she does something nice that her sister appreciates because it doesn't cost her anything. I think Edith deserves happiness far more than Mary deserves unhappiness. If Mary is involved in getting Edith and Bertie back together -- regardless if she was complicit in breaking them apart -- that will likely make Edith happy.

 

If Edith has a strong enough sense of self to forgive Mary, especially if Mary helps her find happiness, I'm going to find that a really nice moment. Personally, I'm not going to keep a scorecard of Mary's prior bad acts and substitute my judgment for Edith's because I feel Mary hasn't done enough to earn back Edith's goodwill. I want to see the two sisters reconcile, and if I get that, I will know that Edith forgives Mary and feel that I should, too.

[Roseanna]

Eonlivet, I don't want to see any reconcile between Mary and Edith in CS because I can't believe that it would be possible.

It's OK to Edith to forgive Mary and wish her well, but Edith is an utter fool if she wants to be in Mary's company any more than is strictly necessary and even then she should be politely and distantly civil but never intimate and especially never reveal her anything of her joys and sorrows.

Remember Aesop's fable about the lady with a good heart who placed the serpent to her bosom in order to warm it - when it revived, it bit ans poisoned her.

[ZoloftBlob]

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that because Mary isn't suffering enough or giving up enough, her penance is somehow inadequate if she does something nice that her sister appreciates because it doesn't cost her anything.

 

Well, to me it isn't about Mary's suffering or lack thereof, but that it's not really penance if it costs her nothing to do something nice. I mean, I agree it would be nice if Edith could get some happiness and forgive Mary... but if it happens because Mary does something that costs Mary nothing to do... then its a bit dissastifying in that Mary hasn't really earned the reconciliation. Mary wouldn't have *earned* it, in other words.

 

Which goes to the overall issue of Mary rarely having consequences for her behavior.

Edited December 9, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[Roseanna]

ZoloftBlob, I don't care about penance or earning reconciliation, but I agree that in order to show that somebody has really changed, she must do something that costs her something, preferably a lot.

Mary has once did it: when she decided to tell Matthew about her love, she met Lavinia who told her that she would die if she lost Matthew - and after that Mary didn't tell Matthew.

Now Mary had a choice - to decide that even if she *wanted* to hurt Edith, she wouldn't do it, if only that she didn't want to be a jealous and envious person. But she failed and that can't be put it right by doing something that costs her nothing.

[ZoloftBlob]

And on one point I agree completely with Eolivet - I'd be happy if Edith and Mary reconciled and think that would be lovely. I just think Mary has to earn that by doing something more difficult than next to nothing.

[Tetraneutron]

What could Mary do that would let her suffer, though? She has everything she wants. Money, love, Downton, security. Her storyline is over. 

 

Besides, people are forgetting what show this is. Mary is the protagonist, and it's an old-fashioned PBS drama. Everything will end happy for the protagonists, and we'll fade out on the characters, knowing all is right with the world. This isn't one of those fancy new cable or streaming dramas where the protagonists are dark and no one learns a lesson. I also don't see why people need to see Mary suffer. People are casting this as a show where Edith is Cady Heron and Mary is Regina George, but that's not what JF wrote. Most shows have the pretty and popular protagonist also be basically a good person. 

 

What they have to wrap up before the finale is:

-Edith and Bertie

-Thomas gets a new position and ends on good terms with everyone. 

-Tom starts his business, and gets a new girlfriend

-Daisy . . . does something. 

-Isobel and Merton. 

 

So I think, like the rest of you, Mary will be involved in getting Bertie and Edith back together. It will show how great Mary is, plus JF loves writing plots where she arranges everyone's life (breaking up Rose and Jack, reuniting Gillingham and Mabel, ringleading the plot to get the incriminating letter back to the Prince). And Edith gets her happy ending too. 

[Roseanna]

Tetraneutron, I don't want Mary suffer. I want her learn. That's not the same thing.

Mary can have all and still she isn't necessarily happy, especially if she has no inner peace but instead is in the power of her inner demons which make her do things without understanding why.

It's not about Edith being better off than Mary or Mary being unhappy. Mary has shown that whether she is happy or unhappy, she can't simply stand Edith being either unsuccessful and unhappy nor successful and happy. She even said in CS that she wanted to murder her, i.e. that she must simply disappear from the world.

The reason can't be simply that Mary only reacts to Edith. Mary has projected all negative qualities which her refuses to see and acknowledge in herself to Edith. Edith is Mary's shadow.

There is a story line, the most important, for Mary: to become conscious that she has evil thoughts and feelings but she is responsible for not to act on them. But I don't believe that JF can write it.

Regarding "happy end", I doubt that the other person can make you happy. And besides, the marriage vow doesn't speak about happiness, but sharing all, whether good and bad.

Edith has now in her paper a meaning in life outside herself. (That is also what Downton means to Robert whereas to Mary it's only an extension of herself.) Besides, Edith evidently thrives in London. Must she now give over all that for love, marriage and position? Or can she be at the same time a successful career woman and a happy wife, live both in London and in the country?

Besides, Bertie is evidently a man who has a weak self-confidence and who therefore needs strong support from her wife. That's a life task that women like Queen Mother are suited for. Edith was that kind of woman with Strallan. But is she that still?

[SusanSunflower]

At this point I'm hoping -- at best -- for a ruby slippers moment -- "there's no place like home" -- for Mary ... that the bluebird of happiness is in her own backyard with Henry and George -- and Edith and Marigold -- and Tom and Sybbie -- and mom and dad ... perhaps with some admonition from Violet that competitiveness and perpetual dissatisfaction is so very middle class and belies her obvious advantages ... personal and class based. 

Edited December 13, 2015 by SusanSunflower