Spoiler Discussion Thread

[AyChihuahua]

I don't think anything will change for me -- or for most people at this forum, actually -- but I can see how this one episode can be welcomed by pro critics who just want Laurel to work as a character in a bare minimum, and by the general audience at large, who doesn't care enough to analyze in depth.

 

Imo, this episode was supposed to fix WHY EVEN is Oliver still talking to Laurel, more than Laurel herself. By the end of the ep, she's stripped off the crazy angst she created in the first place [because Sara is all right], but it's Oliver's reaction to it that matters. Because he's deciding to be magnanimous, and let bygones be bygones, and forgive/forget this mess Laurel created. Because Thea asked him to. Because he's lost so many people already. Because he's happy and in love and has been trying to fix every relationship in his life in the past month. Because the writers need to give at least one thread of link to Laurel within Oliver's life/journey, because she hasn't had one pretty much since the S1 finale.

That's incredibly interesting and insightful, and also batshit crazy.  I mean, your comment is interesting and insightful, and the writers are batshit crazy, if that's what they're doing.  I guess every season they'll fix one more thing with her (while adding about 25 things that need fixing?), and just keep saming on?  I mean, I am 99% sure she isn't the one dying or otherwise leaving, but wow, if that's the entirety of their thought process with this character who's going into her fourth year of being awful, I just don't know what to say.

 

So is the audience supposed to think of her as a brand-new character, basically?

Edited November 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[calliope1975]

 Maybe KC will actually smile in an episode. 

 

That's going to be the biggest part of whether I can even begin to tolerate Laurel or continue to resent her existence. She's got to stop with the irritated, crossed arms and active bitchface. When the crew was in the elevator going down to the new lair, there was absolutely no reason for her to look like she wanted to murder everyone in it. Especially when SHE is the one who asked Oliver to return to Star City. The attitude has got to go, and if it doesn't, I will continue to criticize this poorly written, irrelevant character.

 

I'm not worried about Felicity at all. She's not going anywhere. I assume TPTB would like to keep their current jobs, and if they thought the blow back from Sara's death was large and unexpected? That would be a drop in the bucket to what they would get if they for reals killed off Felicity. That doesn't mean they won't tease it out the wazoo and have a million red herrings and fake outs. I'm just not taking them seriously. 

[Chaser]

It's actually kind of funny. This episode highlighted the character growth in Oliver more than Laurel. At the end of the day, Laurel is still Laurel. It's like Oliver accepted that was just who she is and he was going to be her friend. 

[AyChihuahua]

Laurel smiled in 4.4, at her "daddy," right before her feral sister she'd chained up in her basement, whose one question she had just ignored, tried to choke her to death.

 

Bad form, Sara!  I know you could have gotten the kill in much more quickly than that!

 

 

At the end of the day, Laurel is still Laurel. It's like Oliver accepted that was just who she is and he was going to be her friend.

I just don't get why.  I LOVE how much growth we've seen from him, but why does him being a better and more forgiving person means he needs to be friends with this person he has very little in common with anymore?  She's basically an old HS friend, and I know very few people who are actual friends with people from HS as adults.  Is it basically just that she's going to remain around regardless, so if she's gonna be there either way, maybe they should get along better?

Edited November 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

It's actually kind of funny. This episode highlighted the character growth in Oliver more than Laurel. At the end of the day, Laurel is still Laurel. It's like Oliver accepted that was just who she is and he was going to be her friend. 

 

Yeah, I got that feeling too. Mostly because they didn't talk through a single one of their issues. It was accusation/agreement, basically. 

[dtissagirl]

That's incredibly interesting and insightful, and also batshit crazy.  I mean, your comment is interesting and insightful, and the writers are batshit crazy, if that's what they're doing.  I guess every season they'll fix one more thing with her (while adding about 25 things that need fixing?), and just keep saming on?  I mean, I am 99% sure she isn't the one dying or otherwise leaving, but wow, if that's the entirety of their thought process with this character who's going into her fourth year of being awful, I just don't know what to say.

 

Hee, it's not that insightful of me, it's in the text of the show -- Thea did ask Oliver to not sever connections with Laurel, he's happy and in love, and he IS trying to fix his relationships.

 

I think three things end up helping me not care so much that this is how they write Laurel --

 

1. They have always written her like this -- daytime soap opera over the top hilarious set up, one episode speedy conclusion, no consequences -- and I expected this to happen exactly like it did in 405.

 

2. We know enough about the upcoming 4-5 episodes to know they're not suddenly increasing Laurel's screentime exponentially or something. And we still haven't heard what's her plot arc after Sara -- if she has one.

 

3. OLIVER JONAS QUEEN. The way he's handling all of his relationships in each of these episodes is my very favorite thing they've ever done to Oliver on the entire run of this show. I love Oliver/Felicity, duh, and the way they're writing them is working for me hardcore, but I'm also really really adoring how the season is handling how Oliver reacts to the other characters? He's being so mature, and so compassionate towards the others, it's a delight for me.

 

Laurel's not the character I wanna see developed, because that demands that they put her front and center a whole lot more than the sporadic episode like this one. I'd rather she stays in the background causing the least amount of effect in the story. Oliver, otoh, is a character I care for, so I appreciate him being treated so well by the text wrt to how he relates to other people.

Edited November 1, 2015 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

Maybe KC will actually smile in an episode. I still want Tommy back

1. She actually did smile in this one. 2. I still wish someone would have asked why she didn't dig up Tommy as well. Dude did die trying to save her after all.

 

 

It actually is a good episode. I liked Constantine even though I have no effing idea what the magical tattoo was about or why Reiter didn't just let him blow Oliver's brains out. Is he just mesmerized by his baby blues? Or maybe he has a wicked plan for Oliver that is yet to be revealed. Preferably in cahoots with Poppy.

 

I wasn't even mad at Laurel, all I could do was laugh when she went off on Oliver and the look of judgement on his face. Which was really not there and he was completely chill. Oh, Laurel. Never change. I know you won't too.

 

The Queens are always nice to see together, even though Laurel is definitely rubbing off on Thea who rejected Oliver's call because she didn't want any more judgement. I'd start a Free Thea campaign but I'm afraid of who'd be stuck with Laurel then.

 

The thing about Chappaquiddick that hasn't been brought up? Oliver gets the reference even if Thea doesn't. There's also a great little moment when he looks at Thea all, kids these day. Welcome back, fuddy duddy Oliver, I love you so. He also has one of the funnier moments in the episodes when he shakes his face out before Constantine punches him. Walking into the red curtain room nonchalantly after being cuff-linked is also a winner. These things? Puh-lease. Try harder. Yes, bad-ass Oliver. Other strong contenders for the funny are, as expected, Felicity Your Overlord Smoak and cardiac episode Curtis. So, Overlord for Felicity's code name.

 

Lance and Darhk's scene was also great. Sticking around for the muffins? I really like that most of the times Darhk seems so rational.

 

Sara was a total BAMF and I chortled when she clocked Laurel.

[apinknightmare]

 

 

I wasn't even mad at Laurel, all I could do was laugh when she went off on Oliver and the look of judgement on his face. Which was really not there and he was completely chill. Oh, Laurel. Never change. I know you won't too.

The Queens are always nice to see together, even though Laurel is definitely rubbing off on Thea who rejected Oliver's call because she didn't want any more judgement. I'd start a Free Thea campaign but I'm afraid of who'd be stuck with Laurel then.

 

This is probably my biggest complaint about the whole episode. Oliver wasn't angry about anything other than Laurel not telling him about Sara escaping (because people were getting hurt/killed), and he didn't even seem all that angry about that? He definitely didn't seem to pass judgment on either Laurel or Thea. So Laurel calling him out on being judgmental and Thea avoiding his call because of it was incredibly stupid, and both of those actions would've fit well in another episode in an earlier season. It didn't fit well here at all.

Edited November 1, 2015 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

1. She actually did smile in this one. 2. I still wish someone would have asked why she didn't dig up Tommy as well. Dude did die trying to save her after all.

 

Try imagining Laurel and Thea lifting Sara's casket out of that hole on the ground. Now imagine them carrying the casket from the grave to their car. Now imagine them trying to fit the casket into the car. Now imagine them doing all of that twice. That's your answer. :)

[Chaser]

1. She actually did smile in this one. 2. I still wish someone would have asked why she didn't dig up Tommy as well. Dude did die trying to save her after all.

 

 

It actually is a good episode. I liked Constantine even though I have no effing idea what the magical tattoo was about or why Reiter didn't just let him blow Oliver's brains out. Is he just mesmerized by his baby blues? Or maybe he has a wicked plan for Oliver that is yet to be revealed. Preferably in cahoots with Poppy.

 

I wasn't even mad at Laurel, all I could do was laugh when she went off on Oliver and the look of judgement on his face. Which was really not there and he was completely chill. Oh, Laurel. Never change. I know you won't too.

 

The Queens are always nice to see together, even though Laurel is definitely rubbing off on Thea who rejected Oliver's call because she didn't want any more judgement. I'd start a Free Thea campaign but I'm afraid of who'd be stuck with Laurel then.

 

The thing about Chappaquiddick that hasn't been brought up? Oliver gets the reference even if Thea doesn't. There's also a great little moment when he looks at Thea all, kids these day. Welcome back, fuddy duddy Oliver, I love you so. He also has one of the funnier moments in the episodes when he shakes his face out before Constantine punches him. Walking into the red curtain room nonchalantly after being cuff-linked is also a winner. These things? Puh-lease. Try harder. Yes, bad-ass Oliver. Other strong contenders for the funny are, as expected, Felicity Your Overlord Smoak and cardiac episode Curtis. So, Overlord for Felicity's code name.

 

Lance and Darhk's scene was also great. Sticking around for the muffins? I really like that most of the times Darhk seems so rational.

 

Sara was a total BAMF and I chortled when she clocked Laurel.

That would actually be hilarious. Give Felicity the must bad-ass codename of the bunch. Have some villains infiltrate the Lair and demand to speak to Overlord. Here's this bright, ponytailed, bespectacled blonde "Hi yeah that's me." 

[foreverevolving]

That would actually be hilarious. Give Felicity the must bad-ass codename of the bunch. Have some villains infiltrate the Lair and demand to speak to Overlord. Here's this bright, ponytailed, bespectacled blonde "Hi yeah that's me." 

This needs to happen!

[kismet]

1. She actually did smile in this one. 2. I still wish someone would have asked why she didn't dig up Tommy as well. Dude did die trying to save her after all.

I love your recap. I haven't watched the episode. I've decided I am waiting until Weds to watch it live. Even watching the videos feel like it will ruin when I watch the episode. As for her smiling, LL has smiled before. I guess I just want her smile to come because she is genuinely happy and not just a few marbles short of deranged. She hasn't had a non-loony or fake smile since s1. And didn't you hear the rumors - Tommy is not dead :)

 

It seems like a good episode. I'm loving all I'm hearing about OQ"s growth & Constantine. Honestly, Teflon LL was never gonna get punished, so the sooner they brush over it the better. I would have preferred LL is having a mental breakdown. But I'm in the @Dtissagirl school of thought which is the less focus on LL, the better. And her having consequences or a mental breakdown would draw focus to her character. They clearly do not now how to write her character, so all the better that they don't try anymore.

 

3. OLIVER JONAS QUEEN. The way he's handling all of his relationships in each of these episodes is my very favorite thing they've ever done to Oliver on the entire run of this show. I love Oliver/Felicity, duh, and the way they're writing them is working for me hardcore, but I'm also really really adoring how the season is handling how Oliver reacts to the other characters? He's being so mature, and so compassionate towards the others, it's a delight for me.

 

Laurel's not the character I wanna see developed, because that demands that they put her front and center a whole lot more than the sporadic episode like this one. I'd rather she stays in the background causing the least amount of effect in the story. Oliver, otoh, is a character I care for, so I appreciate him being treated so well by the text wrt to how he relates to other people.

My sentiments exactly. :)

[bijoux]

Try imagining Laurel and Thea lifting Sara's casket out of that hole on the ground. Now imagine them carrying the casket from the grave to their car. Now imagine them trying to fit the casket into the car. Now imagine them doing all of that twice. That's your answer. :)

 

I get the impression ou think of his as a bad thing, yet all I see is potential for hilarity.

 

That would actually be hilarious. Give Felicity the must bad-ass codename of the bunch. Have some villains infiltrate the Lair and demand to speak to Overlord. Here's this bright, ponytailed, bespectacled blonde "Hi yeah that's me." 

 

Co-sign.

 

Now that Sara got her soul back, can we stop with the shots of her dried up, anime corpse? It's really bad and annoying. Although I fear it will haunt us until she and Palmer are shipped off.

[lexicon]

What I would like to know is now that Sara's back to herself, when are they going to tell her that Nyssa is being held prisoner by MM and what she intends to do about it? Or are they going to ignore that in the rush to launch LOT?

 

Are we supposed to forget that Nyssara was a thing or that Nyssa is being held by MM or that Sara would care? After all, her new BFF Laurel just waltzed off with a reanimated Sara and left her to MM, when last year she was willing to sacrifice Lyla to protect her so I'm confused as to just how much of a role Nyssa is going to play going forward or if the show is going to let her fade into the background. 

[Sakura12]

I think Katrina Law's availability is big factor in the Nyssa storyline. The characters have no control over that. 

 

However they can play it like they usually do, no one tells anyone anything. Sara won't know what happened to Nyssa unless Laurel tells her. And we've seen how well Laurel answers her sister's questions. 

[Chaser]

Easy. They are going to play like Sara just forgot about Nyssa because of the LP. Laurel is going to decide it's best not to tell her. LOL I can't believe how Laurel just completely screwed over Nyssa. Well I can because it's Laurel, but still.

 

Down the line Nyssa will be remembered. Probably on LOT.

[bijoux]

What I would like to know is now that Sara's back to herself, when are they going to tell her that Nyssa is being held prisoner by MM and what she intends to do about it? Or are they going to ignore that in the rush to launch LOT?

 

Are we supposed to forget that Nyssara was a thing or that Nyssa is being held by MM or that Sara would care? After all, her new BFF Laurel just waltzed off with a reanimated Sara and left her to MM, when last year she was willing to sacrifice Lyla to protect her so I'm confused as to just how much of a role Nyssa is going to play going forward or if the show is going to let her fade into the background. 

 

Yeah, I'm sadly not putting much faith in them remembering Nyssa. Which they definitely should since they involved her in the resurrection thing. Maybe Sara counts on extracting her from NP at an earlier point once she starts time travelling? Since I'm not going to watch LoT, I'm fine if Nyssa and Sara aren't together right now. But it would still be a decent thing to get her out of captivity before leaving for wherever and whenever.

 

This is supposedly on set on Friday. Could it be they're still shooting or reshooting stuff from the crossover? I'm almost certain that that's what Oliver and Barry wear in their scene with Hawkgirl and Hawkman that we've seen shots of already. 

[AyChihuahua]

This is supposedly on set on Friday. Could it be they're still shooting or reshooting stuff from the crossover? I'm almost certain that that's what Oliver and Barry wear in their scene with Hawkgirl and Hawkman that we've seen shots of already. 

Those are really good pics of Oliver.  That's the best I've seen him look in awhile.

[bijoux]

Those are really good pics of Oliver.  That's the best I've seen him look in awhile.

I can attest he looks mighty fine in 4x05 in shirt sleeves and a tie in his campaign HQ.

[AyChihuahua]

I can attest he looks mighty fine in 4x05 in shirt sleeves and a tie in his campaign HQ.

Pictures or it didn't happen.

 

(I haven't been a fan of his hair so far.  No one looks good in a high & tight, even SA.)

Edited November 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[bijoux]

Pictures or it didn't happen.

 

(I haven't been a fan of his hair so far.  No one looks good in a high & tight, even SA.)

I'd gladly provide photographic evidence but I don't know how to do screencaps and there is a serious lack of them on Tumblr. All I'm finding is people cursing people for posting things from this episode and ruining things. But I can't find those people.

[dtissagirl]

This is supposedly on set on Friday. Could it be they're still shooting or reshooting stuff from the crossover? I'm almost certain that that's what Oliver and Barry wear in their scene with Hawkgirl and Hawkman that we've seen shots of already. 

 

Still shooting the crossover, yes. Stephen mentioned in a FB video he posted on Friday that his last day on the crossover was Thursday, and his last day on 409 was Friday. Crazy shooting schedule is crazy.

[apinknightmare]

Pictures or it didn't happen.

 

(I haven't been a fan of his hair so far.  No one looks good in a high & tight, even SA.)

 

The quality makes it a bit difficult to get a decent screen cap:

 

[kismet]

I'm ok if they let the Nyssa storyline slumber for a bit. Rescuing her would be nice, but then what do we do with her? The cast is bloated as is on all 3 shows. There is no reason Nyssa would want to stick around SC to defend it. Her traveling with LoT would be awesome, but then let that show rescue her. I do think they could rescue her and then she retreats to a mountain like Tatsu. But part of me likes that she is in NP, likely building up a following to stage a coup at some point.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like Nyssa. But I like her in small doses. There is no place for her right now on ARROW and I don't want her to be rescued and then pretzeled into the story. And I guess I'm not opposed to leading a rescue mission, but I'm also apathetic towards it. She seemed to be doing ok in NP when we met her in s4. I do not see that changing now. I feel like things will go back to the way they were now that the Lances are out of NP. I also think the only reason they included her in the Resurrection storyline was to give us a rationales for why it was bad to do, why she didn't do it before and to destroy the pit. All genius moves, since Nyssa was the MVP of the whole LP storyarc, at least from my perspective.

[Sakura12]

That's what I was going to say. The quality is decent, not the best. 

 

 

After watching the episode again to get the screencap. I asked about the public knowing about Sara because the Political Strategist guy only mentioned Laurel. Sara being alive changes things a little bit. He still had an affair has an unmarried 22 year old but the girl didn't die then, she died last year and is alive again. That's the kind of scandal Oliver shouldn't want made public. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[Mrs. de Winter]

Just to confirm in case I am missing something: Laurel berates Oliver for keeping things from her and not caring enough about her family.  In the end Oliver says they should try and be better friends and they hug it out and all is well.  

Of course Oliver does this while keeping from her the fact that one of her family members is working as a double agent for him with Damien Darhk.  A secret that he includes Felicity and Diggle in right away.  So once again it seems like Laurel is not really part of the inner circle. 

So what really has changed when it comes to Laurel's place on the show and in Oliver's life?  Or do we think he comes clean about her father in the next episode?

[Chaser]

If Lance is the death, I don't think she finds out until he dies. Drama, Drama, Drama.

[bijoux]

I'm ok if they let the Nyssa storyline slumber for a bit. Rescuing her would be nice, but then what do we do with her? The cast is bloated as is on all 3 shows. There is no reason Nyssa would want to stick around SC to defend it. Her traveling with LoT would be awesome, but then let that show rescue her. I do think they could rescue her and then she retreats to a mountain like Tatsu. But part of me likes that she is in NP, likely building up a following to stage a coup at some point.

 

Don't get me wrong. I like Nyssa. But I like her in small doses. There is no place for her right now on ARROW and I don't want her to be rescued and then pretzeled into the story. And I guess I'm not opposed to leading a rescue mission, but I'm also apathetic towards it. She seemed to be doing ok in NP when we met her in s4. I do not see that changing now. I feel like things will go back to the way they were now that the Lances are out of NP. I also think the only reason they included her in the Resurrection storyline was to give us a rationales for why it was bad to do, why she didn't do it before and to destroy the pit. All genius moves, since Nyssa was the MVP of the whole LP storyarc, at least from my perspective.

 

I don't want Nyssa as a regular. I love her but am afraid the writers would water her down if they wrote for her too often. Three or four episodes per season are great. But I don't think she's in the same place she was at the beginning of 4x03, Malcolm ordered to have her imprisoned, right? Unless it was a temporary measur until Sara was out of NP.

 

 

After watching the episode again to get the screencap. I asked about the public knowing about Sara because the Political Strategist guy only mentioned Laurel. Sara being alive changes things a little bit. He still had an affair has an unmarried 22 year old but the girl didn't die then, she died last year and is alive again. That's the kind of scandal Oliver shouldn't want made public.

  

The public knowledge should only be that Sara didn't die then. Her death last year was never made public. I can see the advisor's rationale. It's not as if this isn't a known part of the Ollie Quuen folklore but continuing to associate with Laurel brings it to the foreground. I also really liked how he didn't focus on just the election since Oliver is a shoe in, but the public support for his time in office. Foresight. Always sexy.

Just to confirm in case I am missing something: Laurel berates Oliver for keeping things from her and not caring enough about her family.  In the end Oliver says they should try and be better friends and they hug it out and all is well.  

Of course Oliver does this while keeping from her the fact that one of her family members is working as a double agent for him with Damien Darhk.  A secret that he includes Felicity and Diggle in right away.  So once again it seems like Laurel is not really part of the inner circle. 

So what really has changed when it comes to Laurel's place on the show and in Oliver's life?  Or do we think he comes clean about her father in the next episode?

I don't know but I kind of love that in a very petty way.

On a nicer note, when Quentin started to bitch to Oliver (gotta give it to Laurel, lies to me about Sara dying, then you about resurrecting her, she's consistent), Oliver went straight into inquiring about how Quentin was feeling. As much as I enjoyed Lance's snark, Oliver's open concern for people warms my heart.

[kismet]

(I haven't been a fan of his hair so far.  No one looks good in a high & tight, even SA.)

See this is why the FB wig was so important! OQ's hair never looked bad in the present. The wig was underappreciated and rightly mocked. But it was a crucial player in the FB. It provided a good way to keep FB/PD separate and it also provided some funny campiness to the FB. Granted, I also never hated the wig as much as other people. The only wig I really could not tolerate was the serial killer photo wig.

 

Obviously we can't get the wig back, but I do eagerly hope they don't high & tight his hair again when it grows out. The island crew seems pretty lax on regulations so fingers-crossed.

[apinknightmare]

After watching the episode again to get the screencap. I asked about the public knowing about Sara because the Political Strategist guy only mentioned Laurel. Sara being alive changes things a little bit. He still had an affair has an unmarried 22 year old but the girl didn't die then, she died last year and is alive again. That's the kind of scandal Oliver shouldn't want made public. 

 

I think this might be an instance of the writers forgetting what they put in their own show. I remember this being an issue last year, because some of us were wondering if people of Starling City might wonder where exactly Sara went. Would no one see that her grave had just been dug up? Would no one ask where she was? There was a party thrown for her when her parents found out she was alive again. She was a bartender at Verdant. 

 

IIRC, MG's answer to a question about people wondering about Sara was that people thought that she died in 2007. So...I'm guessing people are still supposed to believe that she's dead. 

[kismet]

Just to confirm in case I am missing something: Laurel berates Oliver for keeping things from her and not caring enough about her family.  In the end Oliver says they should try and be better friends and they hug it out and all is well.  

Of course Oliver does this while keeping from her the fact that one of her family members is working as a double agent for him with Damien Darhk.  A secret that he includes Felicity and Diggle in right away.  So once again it seems like Laurel is not really part of the inner circle. 

So what really has changed when it comes to Laurel's place on the show and in Oliver's life?  Or do we think he comes clean about her father in the next episode?

Didn't QL explicitly ask OQ not to tell LL about his involvement with DD in the last episode? It would only be the same level of keeping secrets that is the Lance Way. They all keep more secrets from each other than from TA. If the Lance family had a coat of arms, the word mendacium (latin for lies) would be on it. TA is always stuck in the middle of their family drama.

[Sakura12]

That's what I was remembering. MG's excuse as to why they buried Sara in her old grave, no one knew she was alive. 

 

Her back from the dead party was for family and friends I'm assuming (whose friends I don't know) and not public knowledge. As for working at Verdant, I don't think any of the customers knew she was the Sara Lance that died with Oliver Queen. The public still thinks Sara died 7 years ago. Hey, maybe Oliver can use Sara in his campaign. "See, I didn't kill anyone. Sara's alive" Everyone loves a survivor story. But most likely Sara being dead will help her on Legends so no one but Team Arrow and her dad will know about it. 

 

I don't think lying is just a Lance family thing. The Queens (Robert, Moira, Oliver and Thea) have done a fair bit of lying as well. 

Edited November 1, 2015 by Sakura12

[Primal Slayer]

Just to confirm in case I am missing something: Laurel berates Oliver for keeping things from her and not caring enough about her family.  In the end Oliver says they should try and be better friends and they hug it out and all is well.  

Of course Oliver does this while keeping from her the fact that one of her family members is working as a double agent for him with Damien Darhk.  A secret that he includes Felicity and Diggle in right away.  So once again it seems like Laurel is not really part of the inner circle. 

So what really has changed when it comes to Laurel's place on the show and in Oliver's life?  Or do we think he comes clean about her father in the next episode?

As soon as one secret is exposed, another has to take its place. But I didn't expect Oliver to spill all the beans this episode, Sara was the main worry for everyone. Wendy said that Laurel is "suppose" to learn of Quentin's betrayal and if that is the truth, I expect it within the next 2 episodes. 

[bijoux]

It doesn't make sense that people thought she was still dead since she had a job which made her visible. Plus, she was out of town for six month before being killed. She was away, it's not really something people don't do.

[Primal Slayer]

Didn't QL explicitly ask OQ not to tell LL about his involvement with DD in the last episode? It would only be the same level of keeping secrets that is the Lance Way. They all keep more secrets from each other than from TA. If the Lance family had a coat of arms, the word mendacium (latin for lies) would be on it. TA is always stuck in the middle of their family drama.

And no one tries to break the cycle. Everyone in the show just keeps going with it instead of just going "if you dont tell them, I will" 

[apinknightmare]

And no one tries to break the cycle. Everyone in the show just keeps going with it instead of just going "if you dont tell them, I will" 

 

Felicity did once. But that's the only time I can remember that happening.

[Sakura12]

She was one bar tender at a bar owned by an underage Thea. I wouldn't consider that, that visible of a job. Maybe Thea was paying her under the table so she wouldn't be filling out any tax forms. If the creators themselves say that no one knew Sara was alive then that's what I have to go with, despite having evidence pointing to the opposite. 

[Primal Slayer]

No one knows that Malcolm is alive either. Everyone turns a blind eye to it.

[kismet]

That's what I was remembering. MG's excuse as to why they buried Sara in her old grave, no one knew she was alive. 

 

Her back from the dead party was for family and friends I'm assuming (whose friends I don't know) and not public knowledge. As for working at Verdant, I don't think any of the customers knew she was the Sara Lance that died with Oliver Queen. The public still thinks Sara died 7 years ago. Hey, maybe Oliver can use Sara in his campaign. "See, I didn't kill anyone. Sara's alive" Everyone loves a survivor story. But most likely Sara being dead will help her on Legends so no one but Team Arrow and her dad will know about it. 

 

I don't think lying is just a Lance family thing. The Queens (Robert, Moira, Oliver and Thea) have done a fair bit of lying as well. 

I think the biggest difference for me is that the Queens never claimed to be holier than thou. They freely admit they lie. The only one that seemed really against lies was TQ, but by the end of s2 she was firmly on the lying bandwagon with little to no regret. The Lances all claim to be so honest with each other & others. That its part of their bond. And I agree with @PrimalSlayer nobody bothers to break the cycle, which is why I consider it a family trait. On more than one occasion, the Queens have at least tried to come honest or wanted to break the cycle, even if they failed to do it.

 

As for Sara's death being public knowledge. For me, I think there is a group of people that know she is alive and returned in s2, but the general population probably doesn't care. Her death in s3 was top secret which is why I thought they had to use the old grave. But now that she is alive again, I don't think they will rush to announce it, or the general population just won't care. They either think she is dead, or pleasantly surprised she's alive, but I don't think it will affect their day to day. So either way the campaign drops or ignores the info I don't think the people of SC will really care in the long run.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't care what Guggie said on Tumblr, it was public knowledge that Sara Lance was alive.  Her party was well-attended, and don't tell me, Guggie, that her mother and father didn't tell tons of people she was alive and back.  The issue about Thea being underage while running Verdant was actually addressed in-show, and in general, different states have entirely different laws and regs on the subject...in some states someone 18-20 could own/run a bar, even though they can't drink at the bar.

 

So with many others I have been very happy that Oliver has been so emotionally healthy lately.  BUT, are they just doing that to rip it away from him later?  Temporarily, surely, but for how long?  I really don't want him and Felicity separated for more than a couple weeks, certainly not "Four months later" or whatever, because I really don't want Felicity to be totally screwed up.  She's just the right amount of healthy normal-ish person with some issues right now.  I don't want EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER on the show to be all broken and effed up.

 

Re secrets, not only does LL not know about Quentin having worked with/now being a double agent to DD, as far as we know Quentin does not know that (1) Malcolm is alive; (2) Malcolm engineered Sara's death; (3) Oliver put Malcolm under his protection; (4) Oliver made Malcolm the head of the LOA; and (5) Thea actually killed Sara.  My guess is the show simply doesn't care, but if it does, Quentin still has a lot of actual legit stuff to be angry about.

Edited November 1, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

Can you imagine Laurel and Lance's co-workers? I bet they have arguments over whether or not Sara is dead but everyone is afraid to ask.

[Princess Vanellope]

If Lance is the death, I don't think she finds out until he dies. Drama, Drama, Drama.

Hmmmm...interesting idea. I can't imagine that Laurel will take too well to being lied to (or kept in the dark, whatever floats your boat as far as descriptions go) once more. Perhaps she will decide to leave Star City because her dad is dead, her sister is time traveling, and her friends kept secrets from her again....

Edited November 1, 2015 by Princess Vanellope

[Primal Slayer]

Part of the problem is that MG sees the show as a legit soap-opera but with heroes involved and it doesn't help half the storylines at all, short term or long term. He thinks that over the top drama is the best drama to have.

[apinknightmare]

Hmmmm...interesting idea. I can't imagine that Laurel will take too well to being lied to (or kept in the dark, whatever floats your boat as far as descriptions go) once more. Perhaps she will decide to leave Star City because her dad is dead, her sister is time traveling, and her friends kept secrets from her again....

 

I know it's an accident, but I think the show often makes a good case for keeping Laurel in the dark. I mean, even in this ep, when she was getting angry at Oliver, she talked about him being the Arrow in the middle of the hospital hallway. If someone let slip that Quentin was working for DD (especially if she found out that Quentin kept at it because he threatened her), she'd go right to him and confront him, without even stopping to consider that maybe he was double-agenting. So Laurel!

[Princess Vanellope]

I know it's an accident, but I think the show often makes a good case for keeping Laurel in the dark. I mean, even in this ep, when she was getting angry at Oliver, she talked about him being the Arrow in the middle of the hospital hallway. If someone let slip that Quentin was working for DD (especially if she found out that Quentin kept at it because he threatened her), she'd go right to him and confront him, without even stopping to consider that maybe he was double-agenting. So Laurel!

Oh, I 100% agree. Usually Laurel truth telling time results in abject and utter stupidity. Girl needs to work on her impulse control.

Edited November 1, 2015 by Princess Vanellope

[Chaser]

Given the state of Laurel and her interactions with Oliver in S1/S2, there was really no good reason to tell her he was the Arrow.

Edited November 1, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

I'm never getting over Oliver having to ask Laurel to keep her voice down about him being the Arrow, during a scene wherein she's complaining about him keeping secrets from her. A+ JOB IN DIALOGUE RIGHT THERE, WRITERS.

[apinknightmare]

I'm never getting over Oliver having to ask Laurel to keep her voice down about him being the Arrow, during a scene wherein she's complaining about him keeping secrets from her. A+ JOB IN DIALOGUE RIGHT THERE, WRITERS.

 

I know, it was the best.

[Primal Slayer]

Would anyone even care? Arrow is dead, it is all about the Green Arrow now.

[kismet]

Given the state of Laurel and her interactions with Oliver in S1/S2, there was really no good reason to tell her he was the Arrow.

I disagree. There were many reasons to tell her if he valued her friendship and counsel, considering he involved her in the cases. The problem is he didn't. He got what he needed from his relationship as it was and that was enough for both him & the Arrow. There were valid reasons not to tell his family, because he never involved them & went out of his way to keep them out of his double life as much as possible. But he did involve LL in ARROW business from s1, he just didn't feel it necessary to tell her the truth - which speaks a lot for how he sees LL on his hierarchy of friendships.

 

What she has consistently proven is that she is only good at protecting secrets that protect herself. There is no upside to them telling her about DD & QL connection. Especially considering she does have a consistent track record of poor impulse control when it comes to revealing secrets. In s3, OQ states that he does not tell LL some stuff because she lets her emotions dictate her actions, which I think is a valid & accurate assessment. If how she handled the resurrection of SL is an indication, she does let emotions regulate her actions more so than reasonable thought. Your feral crazy sister escapes your makeshift basement prison and you tell nobody because you don't want to hear their judgment?