All Episodes Talk: Season 5

[Lisin]

A place to discuss particular episodes, arcs and moments from the show's run. Please remember this isn't a complete catch-all topic -- check out the forum for character topics and other places for show-related talk.

[Hybridcookie]

I just posted in the S2 thread that S5 is my second favourite season.

 

The Gift is my favourite episode of the whole series, the whole 'Death is your gift' scene gives me the chills every time, I love how it brings everything together and the voiceover over everyone's reactions to seeing Buffy's body. Though I still remember the TV trailers for the episode with the clear shot of Buffy's grave, running the whole week.

- who thought that was a good idea! Edited April 29, 2014 by Lisin
embedded youtube

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎29‎/‎04‎/‎2014 at 10:04 PM, Hybridcookie said:

I just posted in the S2 thread that S5 is my second favourite season.

 

The Gift is my favourite episode of the whole series, the whole 'Death is your gift' scene gives me the chills every time, I love how it brings everything together and the voiceover over everyone's reactions to seeing Buffy's body. Though I still remember the TV trailers for the episode with the clear shot of Buffy's grave, running the whole week.

- who thought that was a good idea!

Well it certainly puts the hook in you! Interesting they put Angel S2 in there as well. 

I love season 5 because;

1. We have some great standalone eps, noticeably Buffy vs Dracula, The Body/Forever, The Replacement

2. Big Dawn fan and this season is Dawn-centric

3. Anya and Tara really come into their own here and become fully fledged characters whilst Xander moves out of the basement.

4. We say goodbye to Riley (although it takes FAR TOO LONG!), I like the big lug but he was never going to cut the mustard.

5.  Clare Kramer is a kick in the head as Glory and her minions are hilarious SOOOOO much better than Adam. 

[illdoc]

16 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

6. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Speaking of "original plans for Season 5"....wasn't an early thought that 

Spoiler

Xander (and not Ben) was Glory?

Now that would have really made for a different season! Coupled with your spoiler?!!!! Wow. 

Spoiler

Willow vs Xander. Could Buffy stop Willow from killing Xander? Would Buffy want to? Would Willow?

Edited July 17, 2018 by illdoc

[Halting Hex]

I don't know if those "spoilers" ever actually were.  Season 5 was rampant with "foilers", lots of BS floating around.  By season 6, there was more legitimate access to the scripts, to the point where there were those who were hoping that the key plot points for that season would prove as false as some of the S5 rumors.  (The thought being that the spoiler communities were being trolled, essentially.)

But they weren't, so it didn't.  Quite depressing for many people, it turned out.

Spoiler

(And then there was the idea that it was a "two-year arc" and S7 would be dedicated to fixing S6's flaws.  Er, not so much.  More of the same, rather.  Yay?)

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:05 PM, nosleepforme said:

1. I like season five, but I think the stand-alone episodes are rather weak. Buffy vs Dracula is awful IMO, so much potential wasted by making it all into joke, The Replacement is a bore (as Xander episodes usually are), Triangle is ridiculous. Additionally, I think the season gets a little bit too soap opera-like. 

 

2. This is probably Dawn's best season. I like how she matures in season seven too, but she didn't get much to do there. In season six, she was awful though ("Get out. Get out. Get out.)

 

3. I think Tara doesn't come into her own until season six when she really gains confidence and becomes more than just Willow's girlfriend, also noticeable in how she actually becomes Buffy's friend rather than just friend of Willow. Anya doesn't develop much at all this season, but this is the season where the writers realize how they can use her within the group, while they had trouble incorporating her in some of season four. 

 

4. I liked Riley, but whenever he got a dramatic storyline, it dragged the show down, because his masculinity issues were not particularly exciting to watch and he had way more chemistry with Alyson Hannigan and Nicholas Brendon than with SMG. I think he would have made a more fun sidekick character, maybe as Willow's boyfriend if Willow had not turned gay. Marc Blucas was great on Underground though.

 

5. I enjoy Glory, but what I miss with her in season five is someone fun for her to interact with. The minions did nothing for me and Ben was a bore (and not really interacting with her face-to-face either). I think she really needed another character like Angelus needed Spike and Drusilla, like the Mayor needed Faith. Villains are always more interesting when they have just as interesting and complex relationships as the heroes, I think Marti Noxon said it best on one of the Buffy featurettes : "bad guys are more interesting when they have the same longings for love and connection as the heroes".

 

6. 

  Hide contents

Tara was initially supposed to be killed in season five. Joss postponed it because he liked Amber Benson. How different would the season have been if he had stuck to his original plan? Would Dark Willow have fought with Glory? Would Buffy still have died? I think it's good that we got an extra-season of Tara, because she really did grow a lot in her final year on the show.

I love ALL the eps you hate! But we'll talk about them when we get there. 

Agree about Tara but not until the end of season 6, then she really becomes Buffy's BFF.

No, I like season 7 Dawn best although I think her best ever ep, Forever comes here.  

Riley/Xander absolutely, Riley/Willow not so much, only really for one ep?

Yeah, Glory never really had that romantic need although I always thought there was actually something between her and Buffy (and Dawn?). 

I never heard that about Tara, got a source?

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 9:12 PM, illdoc said:

Speaking of "original plans for Season 5"....wasn't an early thought that 

  Reveal hidden contents

Xander (and not Ben) was Glory?

Now that would have really made for a different season! Coupled with your spoiler?!!!! Wow. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Willow vs Xander. Could Buffy stop Willow from killing Xander? Would Buffy want to? Would Willow?

I don't think Will could ever have hurt Xander. A shame we could never have had the rumoured storyline of Buffy allowing herself to be sired and forming her own evil Scoobies whilst Faith is released from prison to combat her (although you can see that idea played out in other eps). 

[lembergwatcher]

Relaxation at the set of Buffy's  season 5. Malibu, California, July 25, 2000.

[MagnusHex]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer (Season 5) Review

Season 5 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer was the series at its most confident. While season 3 is usually the most consistent in quality in many series, season 5 is usually the point where the show becomes successful enough or the showrunners become knowledgeable enough to experiment with new elements in exciting and ambitious ways. Joss Whedon has reached his fifth year running his first TV series, and he’s experienced enough about the identity of the series and the inner workings of a TV production to know what he can and can’t do, therefore allowing him to finally introduce the Prince of Darkness (Dracula, not Ozzy) in the Buffyverse during the first episode of the season, Buffy vs. Dracula. Joss even deftly included a new recurring character in a clever way that makes it seems like she’s been around all along. It involves ancient monks implanting memories in the Summers’ mind and transforming a power source into a 14 year old girl named Dawn Summers (often referred to in the season as “The Key”), neither of which feels out of place in a world full of demons, zombies, ghosts and even sentient robots.

Whereas season 4 had to deal with Buffy Summers leaving high school and moving to college (with the writers figuring out what this transition means for her as a character), season 5 now has the freedom to move past all those student issues and tackle more mature issues of existentialism, mental health, terminal illnesses and death. However, it’s still very much rooted in its teenage drama elements, exploring family themes and the true meaning of love. Appropriately, this means less of the schoolground backdrop and more of Summers-home (and Giles’ newly acquired magic shop). It’s not quite the bleak “being an adult sucks” despondency yet as we still have fun and silly episodes like The Replacement, Triangle, Crush, and I Was Made to Love You, but from what I’ve heard about the depressing season 6, we’ll get there.

Speaking of the magic shop, aptly named “The Magic Box”, it is probably one of the clearest examples of the show’s focus. Much like the library in the first three seasons, The Magic Box serves as Buffy’s new center for discussions of all things supernatural and hazardous to Sunnydale. Unlike the troubled production of season 4, season 5 has regained its concentration and has more consistency with its seasonal arc. The first three episodes are lighter in content as the writers get the momentum going with Dawn’s arrival, but Buffy vs. Dracula does begin the first plotline of season 5: Buffy’s exploration of her Slayer heritage. From Out of My Mind onwards, the arc really takes off by building up three other important plotlines: Riley’s departure, Spike’s affection for Buffy and Joyce’s brain tumor. One episode later, No Place Like Home introduces a fourth plotline: the seasonal villain (or the “big bad”), Glorificus (or just ‘Glory’) the Hell Goddess. Rather than meandering around random monster-of-the-week episodes with no direction, most of season 5’s episodes revolve around these five plotlines that gel together quite nicely thematically speaking. The big throughline connecting this season is family, but more specifically, a surrogate family.

While Riley’s arc is probably the weakest part of the season, it serves its purpose (along with Joyce’s arc) in reflecting the loss of relationships that just happens in adulthood beyond one’s control, whether it’s due to emotional disconnection between your friends and lover or cruel tragedies that literally take away your loved ones from this world. Giles too had almost returned to England in Buffy vs. Dracula if not for Buffy expressing her need for him as a mentor (and perhaps a surrogate father figure). Spike’s arc, on the other hand, serves as the kind of unorthodox relationships one might find in times of grief, with the vampire eventually becoming part of the nontraditional family that’s the Scoobies. Even the big bad herself plays into this theme, with Ben Wilkinson (the fleshly vessel that entraps Glory’s subconsciousness) showing that just because a person is connected to you by blood or even sharing the same body, it doesn’t necessarily mean you would become a tight-knit family. Dawn’s character is the most evident in representing this message, being literally unrelated to Buffy by blood, and yet becoming as close to her as Joyce like a real family. Her character arc has been compared by others as a metaphor for adopted children struggling to bond with their surrogate family. Willow Rosenberg’s girlfriend, Tara Maclay, also contributes significantly to this theme in Family, where her own family persecutes her for practicing witchcraft (accusing her of being a “demon”), but eventually, along with the vengeance demon Anya Jenkins, she too found a special place among the Scooby family.

Such a consistent theme focusing on things that are not directly related to the big bad unfortunately means that Glory doesn’t get as much spotlight in season 5 as the previous big bads do in their respective seasons. While Angel, Spike, Faith and the Mayor have played major roles in the first three seasons as both side characters and villains, Glory, on the other hand, is often sidelined as she complains to her minions about not finding The Key. Even when she does confront Buffy mid-season, she would either underestimate her or simply couldn’t be bothered about her petty existence to pose any further threat against the Summers family. This results in a pretty anticlimactic villain with the power of a goddess but the significance of a generic demon Buffy has beaten countless times. Buffy’s eventual “defeat” this season isn’t even directly caused by the villain, but another minor demon simply referred to as “Doc” (Joel Grey) whose actions in the season finale leads to an apocalyptic event that threatens all human life… much like the past two or five events in the series that posed similar threats. In other words, Glory is largely insignificant ‘till the final stretch of the series.

In her defense, Glory’s sole desire is merely to return home to her own dimension, not conquer or destroy humanity like past big bads, and a goddess with the maturity of a prissy drama queen like pre-season 3 Cordelia (minus the charm and sharp wit) and such an unconventional motivation should be an interesting concept on paper. She’s more like a force of nature that wants to move on from Earth, no more malevolent than a tornado or a tsunami (albeit just as destructive), or heck, Death personified. And yet, in execution, Glory’s unique traits just don’t get played around with in any interesting manner. There’s no ambiguity in Buffy’s perception of Glory. She’s just the latest obstacle in the way of humanity’s lifespan that needs to be stopped. And with Glory being a goddess powerful beyond measure, the writers have to come up with these convoluted ways to ensure she doesn’t kill the titular character of the series, and Buffy couldn’t beat her ‘till the last episode, leaving the big bad stuck in this perpetual role that’s non-threatening or remotely engaging. Why didn’t Buffy just use the Dagon Sphere she’s had since No Place Like Home? That Chekhov’s gun has been sitting there for 17 episodes! The entire threat of the big bad relies on the Scoobies not trying out what the Dagon Sphere does to her!

But perhaps it’s not such a major storytelling problem. After all, the time spent ignoring Glory was focused on exploring intricate character development and relationships. The bigger focus here on the Scooby family and Joyce’s tumor means that season 5 is more intimate and personal than the previous seasons. Rather than just have another grandiose bad guy to fight again or even fight against your shadow self (AKA Faith), this season spends more time exploring the more mundane, spiritual and less fantastical problems in life like the feeling of insignificance or the randomness of death. Joyce’s big moment in The Body was definitely a hallmark of television drama that’s rarely seen before, an episode that explores the many ways one deals with death, how one grieves and even become detached from the horrible reality. Its mature subject matter feels distinctly different from the more romantic (albeit tragic) elements of having your true love (Angel) or close friend (Faith) become your worst enemy. It’s not a plotline that’s unimaginable in everyday life, perhaps even hitting too close to home for some audiences. Meanwhile, Spike’s twisted love for Buffy is equally amusing and fascinating, further expanding the Buffyverse universe by asking whether if a neutered vampire could feel true love without a proper soul. In spite of what some might feel about “Spuffy” as a relationship, Spike’s character arc in season 5 was an essential one that deepens the vampire lore.

So while I fancy as much as the next Buffy fan a poetic battle against a supervillain like Angelus or the Mayor featuring loads of guerilla tactics and tormenting the good guys’ loved ones, I don’t really mind the more down-to-earth tone of season 5. Perhaps it’s unbefitting for fans who expect a certain level of high-octane action that they’re used to in a vampire-killing gothic drama, but season 5 marked a change in the series where it’s gradually shifting towards darker and more depressing elements that one simply couldn’t punch her way out of, Slayer strength or not. It’s a bit of a downer surely, for a once bright and campy monster-of-the-week series (with a demon robot and a killer ventriloquist’s dummy) to now thrust heavy topics of addiction and the inevitable silence of death onto its audience, and there’s definitely a mood whiplash at work. But perhaps, at the risk of sounding pretentious, that’s life. Whedon has always intended for Buffy (and all his shows really) to reflect life and all its facets. With Buffy, it’s about growing up, and with Buffy season 5, the young bright-eyed girl has entered adulthood, where such unpleasant issues must be inevitably dealt with.

What I think most fans would come to miss about these darker elements, however, and perhaps the entirety of the following season, is that there’s usually a bright spot at the end of it, even if it results in the death of your beloved characters. These stories are not necessarily about the darkness themselves, but overcoming darkness. In the season finale, The Gift, Buffy said one of the most memorable and probably one of my favorite lines of the series: “The hardest thing in this world is to live in it.” I feel like the ambiguity of such a line, not fully knowing whether if Buffy was optimistic or pessimistic saying it, says a lot about the similarly ambiguous perception towards the darkness of the show. This final episode of the season is mostly viewed as tragic, even by myself, but I feel that there’s light in Buffy’s actions and there’s strength in her integrity to do what’s right in the face of Armageddon. While Buffy the Vampire Slayer might very well end up as a tragic tale too depressing to stomach, I still see the hope burning within Buffy, the hope that life could always become better, that darkness will always end with dawn.

Final Rating: 8.5/10

[Joe Hellandback]

It was a truly great analysis but I'm glad the series didn't end there. 

[Halting Hex]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:35 PM, MagnusHex said:

Joyce’s big moment in The Body was definitely a hallmark of television drama that’s rarely seen before, an episode that explores the many ways one deals with death, how one grieves and even become detached from the horrible reality.

"Except that Joss had already done this…and then he did the rest of Prophecy Girl, the part where the characters took action and grew as people.  And he already did 'The Scoobies react to the death of someone close to them' in Döppelgängland, and he made it three minutes long and funny as hell.

I swear, this episode is like watching with the Pause button on."

—a rough attempt at quoting some wise person (coughs discretely) on TWoP, years ago, from memory. Also, in the episode thread, I noted that the "we watch in silence as Dawn gets the news" bit in Act II is a late revision (to cover for Joss realizing that the dialogue he originally wrote for the scene was crap), and it's Joss borrowing from his own/Ty King's work in Passion (and from E.R.'s classic "Love's Labour Lost" before that, and from the soap opera Santa Barbara before that)…but doesn't Passion also cover "the many ways one deals with death" just as well, and far more effectively?

Quote

BUFFY: (slides down wall) —SHOCK

WILLOW: (breaks down into tears) —GRIEF

GILES:  (packs up his weapons and heads out) —RECKLESS ACTION

XANDER:  So if Giles wants to go after the fiend that murdered his girlfriend, I say Faster, Pussycat—Kill! Kill!  —BITTER ANGER

Bam, Bam, Bam—three consecutive scenes and only Xander even needs to say a word.  No need for Dinner Theatre Speeches (from a character who barely even met Joyce) or "It's always sudden" faux-wisdom to fluff Tara.  

(Plus the Scoobies not only manage to follow Buffy thirty feet down a corridor [as they can't be bothered to do in the S5 bore-fest], they even accompany her to Giles's pad and the factory!  Amazing!)

The only Emmy™ Award that Whedon should have been nominated for with regard to The Body is "Most Chutzpah" for even trying to submit this swill, since the episode wasn't even the "best writing" on this series that month.  I'm the last to sing Jane Espenson's praises, but IWMTLY beats The Snore by a country mile.

"Dawn may be in danger!  You guys stay here…why would I need a Watcher, two witches who just beat a God, or a guy who's clocked more field time than almost anyone on the planet?  All that stuff I told Quentin Travers about how valuable you guys are a whole four episodes ago?  Forget that, I was just bullshitting!  Enjoy the snacks, losers."

(Yeah, I'm still really annoyed by that.  Sorry.)

Edited October 10, 2020 by Halting Hex

[MagnusHex]

16 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

"Except that Joss had already done this…and then he did the rest of Prophecy Girl, the part where the characters took action and grew as people.  And he already did 'The Scoobies react to the death of someone close to them' in Döppelgängland, and he made it three minutes long and funny as hell.

I swear, this episode is like watching with the Pause button on."

I mean, even if it has been done before, I still think this was done better and in a more powerful way. I can see why some people like you would find such an episode boring, but I personally like intricate episodes like this and their metaphorical structures, "Chutzpah" or not. Sorry you didn't like it.

I don't know what else to say in response. I really like the episode regardless of what you said.

Edited October 10, 2020 by MagnusHex

[Halting Hex]

1 hour ago, MagnusHex said:

I personally like intricate episodes like this

I'm not exactly sure that hitting the same note all episode through qualifies as "intricate".  I mean, at least The Freshman gave up on the "Buffy feels lost and out of place at college" riff after the 10th or so iteration and moved on to the plot about the local vampire gang and what Xander did all summer and such.

What do we get here?  

Teaser:  Joyce is dead.

Act I:  Joyce is, indeed, dead.

Act II:  Dawn hangs out with some once-offs, which is as blatant a time-stall as you can get.  I mean, am I expected to gaf about Dawn trying to insult Girl-We-Never-See-Again to look good to Boy-We-Never-See-Again in Class-We-Never-See-Again?  Eventually Buffy shows up.

Act III:  Willow and Xander sit around with their girlfriends.  Anya gives a big speech about a woman she's never exchanged dialogue with, because she doesn't understand what death means, even though she spent 1100 years slaughtering people and probably saw people die when she was originally human and married to Olaf, too.  (Since it was 1100 years ago, and the life-expectancy probably wasn't so hot.)  And heck, if she'd bothered to pay attention last year, there was that part where Buffy's new mentor got murdered and so did Riley's best friend, so she had opportunity to ask them why they were reacting like that.  Not to mention at least two episodes where she's concerned for Xander's safety, so she apparently has some idea what "death" entails, after all.  (And hey, wasn't Anya copiously whining about her own impending mortality when she got that dislocated shoulder earlier this year?  Seems as though "Joyce will never brush her hair again" wasn't such a new thought, in fact.)

Act IV:  Joyce is still resolutely dead.  People sit around.  Or fetch snacks.  Dawn is briefly in danger (from one lone vamp) but it's not important enough for the group to leave their seats.  Yawn.

Contrast with Prophecy Girl, where we get deeper explorations of pretty much every character on the series and significant character growth for them in between Buffy learning of her inescapably-prophesied demise at the top of Act II and her deciding there are things worth dying for before the end of that same Act.  (Yes, Xander and Cordelia have to wait until Act III to take action [although Xander showed growth by asking Buffy out in Act I and Cordelia was bonding with Willow in Act II] and the big scene where Angel is intimidated by the Anointed One got cut, but still decent work.)  I grant you, I consider that Act II the greatest Act in the entire series (and the "I quit" scene the greatest scene), so perhaps I'm using a nuke to kill a fly here, but still.  Buffy's repeating the same three words ("I don't care! I don't care") and Sarah doing a complete emotional 180 in that small slice of time is far more resonant than this pile of flashbacks and fakeouts could ever dream of being, IMO.

(To be fair, in Prophecy Girl, Joyce arguably doesn't show any character growth per se; it's just that we and Buffy get a deeper look at whom she already is.  To be less fair, Joyce is only the eighth-most-important character on the series at that point, so if we have to go that far down the list, Joss is doing a pretty damn good job. Whereas The Body tells us a big fat zero about Giles or Xander that we didn't already know.  And they're fairly important.  Or at least they used to be.)

[MagnusHex]

4 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

I'm not exactly sure that hitting the same note all episode through qualifies as "intricate".  I mean, at least The Freshman gave up on the "Buffy feels lost and out of place at college" riff after the 10th or so iteration and moved on to the plot about the local vampire gang and what Xander did all summer and such.

What do we get here?  

Teaser:  Joyce is dead.

Act I:  Joyce is, indeed, dead.

Act II:  Dawn hangs out with some once-offs, which is as blatant a time-stall as you can get.  I mean, am I expected to gaf about Dawn trying to insult Girl-We-Never-See-Again to look good to Boy-We-Never-See-Again in Class-We-Never-See-Again?  Eventually Buffy shows up.

Act III:  Willow and Xander sit around with their girlfriends.  Anya gives a big speech about a woman she's never exchanged dialogue with, because she doesn't understand what death means, even though she spent 1100 years slaughtering people and probably saw people die when she was originally human and married to Olaf, too.  (Since it was 1100 years ago, and the life-expectancy probably wasn't so hot.)  And heck, if she'd bothered to pay attention last year, there was that part where Buffy's new mentor got murdered and so did Riley's best friend, so she had opportunity to ask them why they were reacting like that.  Not to mention at least two episodes where she's concerned for Xander's safety, so she apparently has some idea what "death" entails, after all.  (And hey, wasn't Anya copiously whining about her own impending mortality when she got that dislocated shoulder earlier this year?  Seems as though "Joyce will never brush her hair again" wasn't such a new thought, in fact.)

Act IV:  Joyce is still resolutely dead.  People sit around.  Or fetch snacks.  Dawn is briefly in danger (from one lone vamp) but it's not important enough for the group to leave their seats.  Yawn.

Contrast with Prophecy Girl, where we get deeper explorations of pretty much every character on the series and significant character growth for them in between Buffy learning of her inescapably-prophesied demise at the top of Act II and her deciding there are things worth dying for before the end of that same Act.  (Yes, Xander and Cordelia have to wait until Act III to take action [although Xander showed growth by asking Buffy out in Act I and Cordelia was bonding with Willow in Act II] and the big scene where Angel is intimidated by the Anointed One got cut, but still decent work.)  I grant you, I consider that Act II the greatest Act in the entire series (and the "I quit" scene the greatest scene), so perhaps I'm using a nuke to kill a fly here, but still.  Buffy's repeating the same three words ("I don't care! I don't care") and Sarah doing a complete emotional 180 in that small slice of time is far more resonant than this pile of flashbacks and fakeouts could ever dream of being, IMO.

(To be fair, in Prophecy Girl, Joyce arguably doesn't show any character growth per se; it's just that we and Buffy get a deeper look at whom she already is.  To be less fair, Joyce is only the eighth-most-important character on the series at that point, so if we have to go that far down the list, Joss is doing a pretty damn good job. Whereas The Body tells us a big fat zero about Giles or Xander that we didn't already know.  And they're fairly important.  Or at least they used to be.)

I guess we'll just have to... clichéd as it might sound... agree to disagree. I simply don't agree. I think the message delivered through the metaphors of The Body was meaningful enough to justify any structural problems or any lack of character development. It was Whedon trying to say something about death in a stylistic way (even if he might have said it before), and I appreciate the artful episode for what it is. I don't see the need to develop every character every, single, episode. Sometimes, an episode could just exist for either the fun of it or just to play around with themes in a cool way. This is the latter.

[Halting Hex]

5 minutes ago, MagnusHex said:

I think the message delivered through the metaphors of The Body was meaningful enough

This is going to come off snarkier than I want it to, so I apologize in advance.

1.  What message?  "Death is sad"?  We knew that, didn't we?  From Jesse to Jenny, from Dr. Gregory to Dr. Backer, from Theresa to Forrest, plenty of characters have been mourned already on the series.  What's different here?

2.  What metaphors?  The episode seems pretty literal to me.  

Don't get me wrong; I like a nice filler episode as much as the next person who thinks Beer Bad is a hoot.  I just don't understand why this plotless flatulent wallowing is considered to be a "masterpiece" and a Grand Statement on Death or whatever.

To quote Riley, "The hype was out of control".

"NOTHING CAN DEFEAT THE PENIS!!!"  >>>  "It's always sudden."  But JMO.

[MagnusHex]

1 hour ago, Halting Hex said:

This is going to come off snarkier than I want it to, so I apologize in advance.

1.  What message?  "Death is sad"?  We knew that, didn't we?  From Jesse to Jenny, from Dr. Gregory to Dr. Backer, from Theresa to Forrest, plenty of characters have been mourned already on the series.  What's different here?

2.  What metaphors?  The episode seems pretty literal to me.  

Don't get me wrong; I like a nice filler episode as much as the next person who thinks Beer Bad is a hoot.  I just don't understand why this plotless flatulent wallowing is considered to be a "masterpiece" and a Grand Statement on Death or whatever.

To quote Riley, "The hype was out of control".

"NOTHING CAN DEFEAT THE PENIS!!!"  >>>  "It's always sudden."  But JMO.

It's clear you really have strong feelings about this episode. 😂 Well, I'm not gonna try to convince you otherwise, but I don't see why you should be so bothered by how others feel about this episode. Overrated? Who cares? I think criticizing about how overrated something is is probably one of the most pointless arguments ever existed. And don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not saying it's you specifically, but on a general basis, such arguments are an expression of self-entitlement at its basest level.

To clarify on the whole "what message" deal, I think it's not really one specific message like "death is sad," but more like a symphonic expression of death and the grieving that comes. It's not really like a literal message and more like showing the audience how people deal with the death of a loved one.

Edited October 10, 2020 by MagnusHex

[secnarf]

16 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

"NOTHING CAN DEFEAT THE PENIS!!!"  >>>  "It's always sudden."  But JMO.

I don't really want to wade into this whole debate, but I will say that I really liked this episode, as hard as I find it to watch, and Tara's "Yes...and no...it's always sudden" is a line that has always stuck with me. I was fairly young when I first saw this episode - 12 years old - and despite having had several close family members die by that point in my life, I did not really understand the line. Over the years though, the line just keeps coming back to me, as a way to describe what it is like to experience dying. Every time I have watched somebody die (which, given my career choice, is not infrequent), or had somebody close to me die, those words come back to me.

 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 10/10/2020 at 8:05 AM, Halting Hex said:

I'm not exactly sure that hitting the same note all episode through qualifies as "intricate".  I mean, at least The Freshman gave up on the "Buffy feels lost and out of place at college" riff after the 10th or so iteration and moved on to the plot about the local vampire gang and what Xander did all summer and such.

What do we get here?  

Teaser:  Joyce is dead.

Act I:  Joyce is, indeed, dead.

Act II:  Dawn hangs out with some once-offs, which is as blatant a time-stall as you can get.  I mean, am I expected to gaf about Dawn trying to insult Girl-We-Never-See-Again to look good to Boy-We-Never-See-Again in Class-We-Never-See-Again?  Eventually Buffy shows up.

Act III:  Willow and Xander sit around with their girlfriends.  Anya gives a big speech about a woman she's never exchanged dialogue with, because she doesn't understand what death means, even though she spent 1100 years slaughtering people and probably saw people die when she was originally human and married to Olaf, too.  (Since it was 1100 years ago, and the life-expectancy probably wasn't so hot.)  And heck, if she'd bothered to pay attention last year, there was that part where Buffy's new mentor got murdered and so did Riley's best friend, so she had opportunity to ask them why they were reacting like that.  Not to mention at least two episodes where she's concerned for Xander's safety, so she apparently has some idea what "death" entails, after all.  (And hey, wasn't Anya copiously whining about her own impending mortality when she got that dislocated shoulder earlier this year?  Seems as though "Joyce will never brush her hair again" wasn't such a new thought, in fact.)

Act IV:  Joyce is still resolutely dead.  People sit around.  Or fetch snacks.  Dawn is briefly in danger (from one lone vamp) but it's not important enough for the group to leave their seats.  Yawn.

Contrast with Prophecy Girl, where we get deeper explorations of pretty much every character on the series and significant character growth for them in between Buffy learning of her inescapably-prophesied demise at the top of Act II and her deciding there are things worth dying for before the end of that same Act.  (Yes, Xander and Cordelia have to wait until Act III to take action [although Xander showed growth by asking Buffy out in Act I and Cordelia was bonding with Willow in Act II] and the big scene where Angel is intimidated by the Anointed One got cut, but still decent work.)  I grant you, I consider that Act II the greatest Act in the entire series (and the "I quit" scene the greatest scene), so perhaps I'm using a nuke to kill a fly here, but still.  Buffy's repeating the same three words ("I don't care! I don't care") and Sarah doing a complete emotional 180 in that small slice of time is far more resonant than this pile of flashbacks and fakeouts could ever dream of being, IMO.

(To be fair, in Prophecy Girl, Joyce arguably doesn't show any character growth per se; it's just that we and Buffy get a deeper look at whom she already is.  To be less fair, Joyce is only the eighth-most-important character on the series at that point, so if we have to go that far down the list, Joss is doing a pretty damn good job. Whereas The Body tells us a big fat zero about Giles or Xander that we didn't already know.  And they're fairly important.  Or at least they used to be.)

It always annoyed me that they couldn't have got Dawn some regular friends, that she has a life outside the Scoobs. I always liked the scene where she goes "Hi guys" with a bright smile to the juvenile delinquents in that scene. 

[lembergwatcher]

Some unpopular opininion regarding season 5:

 

[Halting Hex]

On 10/8/2020 at 4:35 PM, MagnusHex said:

Speaking of the magic shop, aptly named “The Magic Box”, it is probably one of the clearest examples of the show’s focus. Much like the library in the first three seasons, The Magic Box serves as Buffy’s new center for discussions of all things supernatural and hazardous to Sunnydale.

To play the contrarian, I'd argue that making the new Scooby Central a place that really has no connection to the gang's life actually splits the focus.  Whereas the Library was part of the gangs scholastic experience, a logical meeting place, and even "Fort Giles" worked thematically (with Giles being the "patriarchal figure"), the shop is actually only of interest to the two witches.  Giles doesn't actually need an income (and it's damn irresponsible for him to, for example, sell Spike a love spell) and Anya's "money problems" only surfaced for this plotline. 

I'd argue they could have made a better choice, but the gang is pretty scattered.  We do have four characters with a connection to the college, but Riley is leaving and it would be awkward trying to integrate Dawn or Spike into a university setting.

Still, I have to think there were better options available.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Halting Hex

[lembergwatcher]

On 5/28/2023 at 3:20 AM, Halting Hex said:

I'd argue that making the new Scooby Central a place that really has no connection to the gang's life actually splits the focus. 

True, but the shop along with Fort Giles are kinda safer reputation-wise. Because the fact that an old guy spends too much time with a group of teens at high school library other students/teachers rarely visit sure as hell leads to a lot of gossip. And not a good one, I'd say. 

Edited May 29, 2023 by lembergwatcher

[Halting Hex]

Well, given that the Library is gone (as is Giles's job) and that the kids are all of legal age nowadays, I'm thinking those issues are fairly mootville by S5.

And honestly, students meeting with faculty in the school isn't considered particularly shocking.  Xander going to "Natalie French's" house to "make egg sacs" (is that what the kids are calling it nowadays? 😮) or Owen catching Giles at Buffy's place when her mom is away could easily raise an eyebrow, but teachers and kids interacting during school hours is not really a big, I wouldn't think.

(If Snyder found out the kids were staying there overnight, different story.  But Snyder tends to go home, after all.)

Edited May 30, 2023 by Halting Hex

[Keywestclubkid]

Does your mother use a cell phone? is your house near any power lines, chemical plants, waste disposal facilities?

he sure didn’t seem to worry about the other 2 people living in the exact same house around those exact same conditions … lol 

[moonshine71]

On 6/23/2023 at 5:33 PM, Keywestclubkid said:

Does your mother use a cell phone? is your house near any power lines, chemical plants, waste disposal facilities?

he sure didn’t seem to worry about the other 2 people living in the exact same house around those exact same conditions … lol 

I don't think we need to assume that the doctor actually believes any of those things are responsible for Joyce's condition, he's just collecting data for studies and watching out for "clusters". There was never any consistent, sold data linking cell phones to brain tumors, but there were enough people raising alarm bells that if would have bean strange not to do such studies, being that they were minimally invasive and low cost. And the cell phone is the only thing Buffy even answers yes to. And if they live near a power line(or anything else)? What's the doctor expected to do, encourage Buffy and Dawn(and presumably their whole neighborhood) to move because there is one incident of a brain tumor?

[Halting Hex]

Well, sometimes it is wise to take action.  See Love Canal, for example.  And the jury is still out on E. Palestine OH, but I'd be looking to relocate, personally.

[StewieGriffin]

Just watched the last 3 episodes of season 5 tonight again on FUSE.  I liked the addition of Dawn thought she was cute and loved how Buffy would do anything to protect her even sacrificing herself.  Were they unsure if SMG was coming back for season 6 and Dawn was going to be the New Slayer?

[Halting Hex]

Not originally, as Dawn was intended to be 11-years old.  Sarah, it seems, used her pending renegotiations to flex her casting muscles a bit and rescue Michelle from SMG's old All My Children haunts.

By season's end, a Dawn story might have been more credible, but Trachtenberg (b. October 13, 1985) was still only 15, and the California laws against over-working underage actors were still in play, even as when they had taken a 17-year-old Katie Holmes out the running for playing Buffy, back in 1996.

Eliza Dushku was able to file for legal emancipation in Season 3 so that she could work longer hours, but that was for a few months at most.  (Eliza, b December 30, 1980, turned 18 between the filming of The Zeppo and Bad Girls.  Which may be part of the reason we saw more of Faith in the back half of S3, although K. Todd Freeman leaving to take the role in Grosse Pointe Blank certainly factored into storyline decisions as well.) A not-yet-16 Michelle would have stood very little chance, IMO.

From a profile of Iain Armitage (Young Sheldon):

Quote

There are several legal protections child performers have in order to prevent exploitation, most famously the Coogan Law, which mandates that a portion of the child’s earnings be protected and set aside for the child until they become an adult. Plus, children are only allowed to work nine-and-a-half hours a day, including a lunch break, and a required three hours of school work. That means Iain will shoot some scenes for the show, break for twenty minutes of school, shoot a bit more, and go back for twenty more minutes of studying until those twenty-minute breaks add up to three hours. 

I guess Iain can work around this in a sitcom. but I can't imagine MT fitting a lead drama role into such a schedule.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Halting Hex