DigitalCount August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 So. This midseason finale gave us a lot to think about, such as: - Is PLL a feminist show? - Was the Charlotte storyline trans-phobic or trans-friendly? - Is there a special responsibility this show has to be particularly respectful given the history of the show? I'm going to let better informed people go into this, though. It's hard for me on my phone; can someone post that great cross-section of posts from women reacting to the finale from a trans perspective? I think it was originally posted by Cranberry in either the Media thread or the episode thread. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/
fitzcarraldo August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 I didn't feel like Cece was A because they were a female in a male body. But the Jason incest fraud makes me squirm. It isn't only wrong because of the body but because of the incest (tho this show condoned Ezra's false pretenses, Ali pretending to be 21, Caleb working for Jenna). The transphobic fears are so much this fraud that they went there and then blamed Ken (not Jessica, who let Jason date his sibling) is squicky as hell. I don't feel pll is feminist either. From the never being single (all girls must have a date to be complete!) to staying victims. It is exploitive. I think all people have responsibility to acknowledge they don't live in a vacuum. So using teen girls for thrills is wrong. Not just for public examples reasons but personal ones. That's what's wrong with Cece, Ali, Mona,.Ezra. They used for benefit. Not, hey, these are real people and deserve privacy and autonomy. If you're going to write about people then write people. Not half baked symbols that stand for plots. If you make them stand ins you are just asking to be held to broad standards, not a trans identity who happens to be a human with issues about family, boundaries, reality, etc. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1415250
raytch August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Thanks for this DigitalCount! I was thinking we need a thread for this because the episode thread was going in too many directions. I too, am currently on my phone but would love to join in on the discussion once I can open my laptop. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1415277
Jack Shaftoe August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Come to think of it, there are some disturbing trends in the depiction of smart female characters in PLL: Cece - wicked smart, mentally disturbed, evil mastermind Mona - wicked smart, mentally disturbed, evil mastermind. Melissa - wicked smart, sent death threats to a fifteen year old, blamed her sister more than she blamed Ian for their hook-up, faked a pregnancy. Leslie - wicked smart, mentally disturbed Spencer - wicked smart, addictive personality, stayed at Radley at least two times Alison - not so much book smart but a genius of manipulation, borderline sociopath Jenna - very smart, a rapist who was giddy at the thought of framing the liars for murder Meredith - seemed reasonably smart, quite a few cards short of a full deck, though As opposed to: Caleb - wicked smart, tough childhood, levelheaded, no mental disorders Lucas - wicked smart, bullied mercilessly, had some involvements in the A-team and visits to Radley but on the whole dealt with his plight much better than his female counterpart, Mona I'm sure I am forgetting quite a few characters but the trend doesn't look good, does it? Or another comparison - dealing with adversity, in particular with bullying: The Liars - do not become abusers themselves. Though with Marlene's love of the "abuse begets abuse" cycle, who knows what might happen next... Mona - turns into Alison 2.0 with the added bonus of murder attempts Paige - bullies Emily Toby - cries in the corner. Later joins the A-team, still unclear exactly why and what harm he did while he was a member. Has a real motive for hating the liars, though. Caleb - becomes a hacker and ghost whisperer. Cece - decides to torment people for no other reason but "it's such fun!" Jason - founds the NAT club Lucas - breaks Alison's memorial, later joins the A-team, was probably blackmailed into joining, Mike - has a nervous breakdown and lots and lots of angst but as far as we know he isn't into bullying people for the lulz Much less of a pronounced difference between males and females but still, no man has had the extreme reaction of Mona and Cece (I hope it's okay to refer to Cece as female?). 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1415368
itainttippithebird August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) (I hope it's okay to refer to Cece as female?). It's not only ok, it's the way we should refer to her if we want to respect her self-identification. Unless your question is about whether the word FEMALE, specifically, is appropriate - referring to men and women as "males" and "females" can rub people the wrong way not only for its clinical nature, but also because it's not always the correct referent - are we talking about sex (male/female, which is primarily defined by medical authority using a combination of genital presentation, hormones, chromosomes, and secondary sex characterists) or are we talking about gender (men/women, which is primarily defined by ourselves and our presentation of self to others)? It seems like in this context, we're talking about gender, therefore it would be better to say men/women - bonus, it sidesteps the question of whether or not Charlotte has legally/medically transitioned. Edited August 14, 2015 by itainttippithebird 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1415711
itainttippithebird August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) As for the question of whether or not PLL is feminist - I think that, for the most part, the show has grown into a legitimate feminist cultural object, but it fails on several fronts in that regard. I think there's probably an interesting dialectic going on between the show staff and the audience (and reviewers like Hogan, Clifton, the Bros Watch PLL Too guys, in particular), where the show becomes increasingly, intentionally a feminist project in part BECAUSE of the feminist readings that cultural critics and fans have brought to it. I think it's pretty evident that Marlene King wanted this to be a gay-friendly show from the start, and probably wanted there to be some kind of a "girl power" spin to it, but I would not be surprised if the writers, directors, and Marlene were influenced by the great queer/feminist response to the show to making it even more so over the years. Of course, Ezria kind of fucks this all up. The show seems to want to have it both ways - men in Rosewood are almost exclusively attracted to teenage girls, and at times we are told to see that as problematic (Baker Bro Zach, Wilden) and at times we are told to see that as romantic (Ezra, Lorenzo, etc). The moment where they turned Ezra into a monster but then "redeemed" him (EYE ROLL) was really a big miss from a feminist perspective - had the show kept Ezra evil (even if that meant Not A, but still a person who had predatory relationships with young women to further his own career), the whole Ezria bullshit would have paid off in the end. But to have Ali say "He's not a bad guy, he's just too romantic," and for the show to BACK THIS UP the next season, was a huge missed opportunity. It's a tricky line between respecting the girls' agency (aka Aria's not just a dope who was taken advantage of) and absolving Ezra of preying on and stalking young women, and they once again allllllmost bridged that gap when Aria starts to see the truth behind her letter to Jackie Molina - but then they go and have Ezra dump her "for her own good" - once again, making the decision his and not hers. This CeCe plotline, however well-intentioned, is another major feminist fail, and one that has just about ruined the entire show for me - for reasons I will try not to rehash TOO much here, as we've discussed it at length elsewhere. It feels painful - and PERSONAL - for this show, that knows how much responsibility it carries in terms of LGBT representation, to have chosen the "shock value" of the twist over really thinking carefully about the implications of such a thing. (BTW, in addition to the specifics of how Charlotte is characterized in this episode, there's also the fact that using someone's transgender status for shock value is, in itself, ALREADY super fucked up and problematic, no matter how much you try to curry sympathy later.) Didn't they consult trans media experts along the way? Marlene saying she's heard from a few trans people who liked it, therefore it's ok, feels like a complete slap in the face. Take ownership of the fact that you have hurt a lot of people with this storyline, and that could have been avoided with some pro-active consultation of trans activists. AND for her to say they would have used a trans actress but they "didn't know that was an option" just goes to show how completely ignorant they were, and that they made no effort to correct this ignorance. So much of this show has been, for many many MANY of us, about the hell of being a teenage girl, the real root of which is both the vulnerability of childhood in general but also the specific vulnerabilites of GIRLhood in particular. A lot of the "girl on girl" crime in the show stems from the patriarchal forces that divide women against each other, turning some girls (Ali, as a prime example), into monsters who then torment other girls. So it's not just about some numerical tally of who's been mean to who, and if women outnumber men, therefore sexism isn't the problem. (For me, anyway.) It's about the vulnerability to adults, adult men in particular, who have the power to give and take away, and about a group of friends TRYING to rage against that. CeCe being A kind of builds on that theme (Mr. D took away her whole LIFE) but it also severaly messes that theme up, so it's not perfect by any means. Up until this point, though, this show has done a lot of things right that other shows for teenage girls has done wrong, and I think that's why it resonates so profoundly with women who are teens or who have ever been teens. Edited August 14, 2015 by itainttippithebird 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1415803
william0102 August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 (edited) I think in certain ways this show is a good example of feminism because at first the four main liars were all distinct, and had developed personalities for the most part. I do think the girls almost always sticking together is a good example of negating the idea that women are all in competition with each other. And it wasn't just ideas specific to Hanna, Aria, Emily and Spencer at first- there was Ashley sleeping with Wilden for Hanna's arrest, which we knew was wrong, but really highlighted circumstances women are more likely subjected to than men. In the first couple of seasons, there was Jenna being blind but literally walking around Rosewood like she owned the whole place. All the moms have had a job, so like I said in some aspects the show is a good example of feminism; I just think the ideas they considered before have gone to the wayside in order to sustain "the mystery" of the show.We've already talked about the trans a lot, but I seriously wonder if Marlene and co actually asked people who had seen the episode. How many trans people did they ask? Because I don't even believe they spoke to anyone, Marlene's lied too much for me to believe her. The entire way she's handled the response does not make me want to give her the benefit of the doubt because it's everyone else's fault, not her own. I have no respect for someone who can't even be open to the possibility that they might have been wrong, or that won't even try to understand after realizing that they did something hurtful. Whereas, Tatiana Maslany actually went out and talked to the trans community for a month (maybe more? I forget) when she played 1 clone for 1 episode in season 2 of Orphan Black. She cared, and the writers and producers took the time to handle that episode with imo the respect that it needed. The clothing and hair was pretty disastrous, not gonna lie, but it was obvious to me that the people running the show and Tatiana wanted to bring some representation to the trans community in a positive way. I didn't hear any of them being condescending or rude when people joked on the bad clothing and hairstyle choices.edited cuz I can't type and need a nap Edited August 14, 2015 by william0102 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416031
Cranberry August 14, 2015 Share August 14, 2015 Great thread idea! I'll repost the two collections of quotes from Autostraddle: I think that instead of talking about whether or not people should be offended, all of us who are not trans need to hear from some trans people about how they feel about it. There are some good comments on Heather Hogan's latest recap, including: PLL really hurt me in a way that it’s never hurt me before last night. Sure, I’ve been angry and upset about storylines before. But here I was, as a closeted (to most people) trans woman watching this show with my mom and feeling numb and trying not to cry at the incredibly harmful thing that was happening on my TV screen. ... Along with trans women getting murdered in this country left and right, you also have the conservatives raging about how young trans girls shouldn’t even be allowed to use the correct restrooms at their schools because of how much of a threat we are to their daughters. So, to reveal that the person who has been torturing these five teenage girls for so many years is a trans woman is incredibly irresponsible. This episode pisses me off now as an adult, but it would have really fucked me up if I was watching it at fifteen. Because growing up a trans girl, almost everything in media and culture pushes you to view yourself as a monster. You’re the bogeyman (and I do mean *man*) who’s going to hurt an innocent family’s young girls by going into the bathroom with them. The only way you’re ever going to get anyone to sleep with you is if you trick them. You’re probably violent, or at least prone to violent outbursts that are (of course) fueled by your jealous rage at never having gotten to be a *real girl.* Your violence will almost always be directed at cis women. You are either a pawn in someone else’s evil scheme, or you’re the mastermind yourself. Either way, you are a powder-keg waiting to go off, twisted by the unfairness of your inherently sad, pathetic life. I’m wise enough now to know that those tropes are bullshit. I’ve done the hard work of unlearning most of them, and I’m a much stronger person as a result. But that kind of stuff leaves scars. I’m beyond furious, however, to think of young trans girls watching this and receiving all those messages at once. As someone who was pretty badly traumatized by Silence of the Lambs years back as a trans girl, I am too sick of this for words. The fact that this is the most nuanced Silence of the Lambs bullshit to ever make it onscreen doesn’t change the fact that that’s still the same old thing we’ve been dealing with all these years. Portray a number of trans folks on your show? Cool, make one or two of them villains, whatever. If you only have the one, then we’re right back to Silence of the Lambs, and it hurts. Please, just don’t. Despite whatever merits this show has, it’s dead to me now. I edited the comments down to just the gist, but you can read the full comments and many more on the recap. ------- I'm going to quote people in the Autostraddle comments again, as they're raising some interesting points over there related to this discussion. Link: The problem I am having is that I am no longer able to convince myself that these feminist themes are actually as powerful as we have made them to be. I think I have had many conversations over the years with brilliant, wonderful women, and we have dissected this show for everything it is worth and have declared it a masterpiece. But I strongly suspect that unless people take the time to do that dissection, they won’t see past the pretty faces and the questionable relationships. Basically, I can’t decide if the PLL writers have an extraordinary amount of faith in the cognitive capabilities of their audience and are catering to that, or if they are just taking advantage of the most marketable to section of society – teenage girls. I can’t decide if they are honestly trying to put these themes out there, or if they’ve decided it’s a happy accident if their viewers pick up on it, but it doesn’t really matter as long as they’re making money. Yup. Honestly I didn’t even start thinking about these feminist themes and other subtle elements of the show until I started reading Heather’s recaps, which, in my opinion, really elevate recaps to an art form. Everything I read of Heather’s about the show I’m like “DAMN you are so smart about this!”, including everything here. So I feel that way… but we also all know in our hearts of hearts that the majority of PLL’s audience will never pick up on any of those ideas or themes, and will take most things at face value, which, as far as this episode is concerned, is very very bad news. THIS. Sometimes I can’t see the golden feminist thread in this show until Heather picks it out for me. Are we giving the writers too much credit? This is related to what makes the show’s trans representation so egregious. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people ignorantly replicating the “he/she/it/bitch” reference. I’ve seen people having long debates about Charlotte’s body and sexuality while using “transgender” as a noun. By questioning whether Charlotte had sex with Jason, the writers invited the audience to dissect and pathologize trans bodies. If the writers want to offer a complicated trans storyline, they have to educate the audience with a well-developed narrative. They have to make subverting heteropatriarchal norms clear. (Again, quotes trimmed to the essentials; click that link at the top of my post to see the full discussion.) Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416063
mercfan3 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) I think the show has excellent intentions..and truly knows what it is trying to say. I think Heather Hogan nails it in her recent write up. "At its core, Pretty Little Liars is a story about the way men assume ownership over women’s bodies, strip away their agency, deprive them of their of autonomy, deny them subjectivity, and silence them. It’s a story about how female victims are blamed for the crimes perpetrated against them by men. It’s a story about existing for the male gaze." And this is shown to us over and over again..in small ways and in big ways..(I'm not going to go through all the example, but Heather's reviews some them up nicely. Of course, A as the patriarchy is an obvious one. - Although I do think Heather can take it too far sometimes) And I think CeCe as A ,a trans woman..and an ultimate sufferer of patriarchy, and Mr. D as the true villain...was the intention. I really do. And I think in order to tell this story (PLL not CeCe As A), given the extreme amount of queer theory and feminist theory in the show, there was going to need to be a trans character. But she didn't have to be A. In fact, given the necessity of A being a deceitful psycho..it would probably have been better if she wasn't. Still, I think Heather is correct in the show's intention. It's execution that can be a problem. You want to tell a trans women's story? You want to go with her as A? Okay, then tell us her story throughout the season. Don't leave it until the end, we're everything is rushed and talked through and we don't come away with completely the intention Marlene was going for. I don't mind the women being the main victims and the main villains because it's a female centered story. Having them share all share a common theme of oppression is fine. Allowing them to redeem themselves is fine. But the execution...man.. Now, Ezria is actually somewhere that I give the show a break. Look, I don't think they can make him evil. I think ABC Family just won't let them. The ship (as well as Toby) is just too popular. But the show has literally done everything in it's power to suggest that the man is a creep. Having him be a creepy stalker. Having Aria write a letter explaining how being with Ezra was isolating. The jokes the show puts in there (I mean come on, of all places they are having Ezra go to Thailand..like..if that wasn't a wink and a nudge to the older fans...) Having Ezra insist that Aria writes things down. Having key moments with Hanna where she feels guilty about an older man preying on her, and then gives it to Holbrook for being predatory with Ali. Furthermore, I think Ezra is..not supposed to be a horrible person. For me, Ezra was redeemed a little bit after he read Aria's letter, and realized what he had done to her. I think some of the male characters represent..sort of..male types..in their role in the patriarchy. Ezra is the ignorant type. He didn't understand the damage he was doing. Now, obviously he was being a creepy stalker and dating a 16 year old girl and he SHOULD have understood the damage he was doing. But the show is campy and dramatic and lives in a land where A is "everywhere and nowhere" and has a secret lair and is a wolf of wall street. I think in terms of analogies..he just represents that guy..who doesn't intend to harm women. Probably thinks that women are equal..but also doesn't realize all he does to continue the status quo. And to me, that moment when he read Aria's letter..and thought it was best that they breakup..that was his realization. That was when Ezra ranked above Toby on the boyfriends list. (Not hard. It's not hard at all.) Is his relationship with Aria still gross..yes..but like I said..this show isn't meant to be realistic. Toby..for me..is the Chivalrous guy. The protecter. The type that puts some women on a pedestal and does everything to protect them..while simultaneously belittling her..(taking away her autonomy/agency). I mean, that's pretty much his entire relationship with Spencer. (He's such a better person with Emily.) And then you see how he reacts to Ali..she's not the type of girl you put on that pedestal. Not the type of girl you try and protect. (Because she can protect herself? Or we can talk about the slut shaming that went Ali's way this season..) Caleb is clearly the Allie. He's helpful but he doesn't take away the girls agency (and on the rare occasions that he does, he gets punished for it. Like when he got shot.) He does what he can to help, in a partner role. But the show also makes it clear that there are some things that Caleb just can't understand, because even though he would be an honorary fifth liar, he's not really a liar. (A woman.) And Jason..poor Jason. Jason is an example of "the patriarchy hurts us all.." Gaslighted so he'll forget his trans sister. Dates his trans sister. Dates his other sister that he didn't know was his sister. We see him struggle with living up to "patriarchal norms"..if we use NAT as an analogy to the male gaze, then you see that Jason clearly struggled with living up to that. (with drug abuse). So anyway..those are some of my thoughts. Edited August 15, 2015 by mercfan3 7 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416717
itainttippithebird August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 All EXCELLENT points, @mercfan3! Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416809
dohe August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) Heather Hogan is a person who makes rationalizations for shows she loves and the problematic storytelling and characterizations contained within those shows - something common to articles at both sites she has worked. Also I really wish people such as Hogan would please, please, please stop using the term male gaze if they have little to no comprehension of this antiquated and heteronormative concept. The show, for all it's many faults, itself is proof of how antiquated the male gaze theory is. I also think while the show does deserve credit for some exemplary LGBT related storytelling when it comes to Emily Fields there are also major problems there. Unlike the other Liars, who have each been given a true love who has been a major part of the series since season 1, Emily's romantic life consists of fleeting romances. There has been a double standard to how the love sequences between Emily and girlfriends are shown compared to the other liars - to the degree that people can legitimately wonder if Emily and any of her rotating band of girlfriends have made love or if they just kissed. As is typical of representation of women who love women on television, out lesbian Emily makes out with a man - notably the straight Liars have never made out with a woman. The man Emily makes out with is the murderer of her ex and her latest girlfriend is part of the A team - two of the other Liars have lovers who are briefly presented as possible bad guys but of course those popular male lovers turn out to still be good guys. All of this of course can be rationalized. Isn't Emily's romantic life with transitory romances in high school more common than the true love scenarios of the other 3 women? Censors probably disallow Emily's love sequences from being as graphic as the lengthy ones between say Spencer and Toby or Aria and Ezra. The rationalization used ad nauseam for how almost every woman who loves women on tv ends up making out with a man - it happens here and there in real life and isn't it great that part of the journey that happens to some women be shown. That is the problem though. People who critique these shows need to move past rationalizing on behalf of shows they love and confronting this storytelling. Edited August 15, 2015 by dohe 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416833
william0102 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) Did she kiss Nate? I must have forgotten that. She did have a boyfriend when the show started, so honestly her kissing any dude after she comes out is bull.The rest of what you said about Emily's love interests is exactly why I don't think the show deserves any props for allowing or "showing" Emily as a lesbian. I've seen her gay storyline on every other show that has a lesbian- non main character girlfriend dies, check (maya), starts out sweet but ends up jealous/weirdo, check (samara), although I will say Paige trying to drown Emily is a standard movie go to for baby lesbians. Not really sure if Alison should be under the bitchy straight crush since she did end up having feelings for Emily- actually that's kind of a role reversal since Ali comes back and is rejected by the experienced lesbian (emily), still a cliche though. I feel like I'm forgetting half of Emily's girlfriends because I know there were a couple that were guest spots for like three episodes..The sad thing is I think most people just want to see a happy/normal lesbian relationship, not a ton of sex scenes. I honestly could have done without the last couple Spencer/Toby sex scenes- and I'm straight. Edited August 15, 2015 by william0102 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1416953
SadieT August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 On one hand I always thought it was interesting and maybe even a little progressive for a television show to have the lesbian character jumping from girl to girl because so often a show will pair up their queer characters as soon as possible and then leave them safely tethered together but never actually show them being romantic or sexual. Which PLL did sort of do with Emily and Paige when they were together for an extended period of time. But Emily's actually the only one of the main characters to be with multiple people. The only problem is we can't actually be sure that she's been intimate with any of her partners because it hasn't been explicitly shown or discussed as it was with the other girls and their boyfriends. So while they're not tying her into one "safe" relationship, they're still de-sexualizing her. I've also seen people accuse PLL of bisexual erasure because many fans feel Alison is bisexual and that's pretty much been ignored. She hooks up with Emily and tells her she has feelings for her but other than that, she's always linked to guys and her sexuality is never discussed. Maybe Alison's just the type of person who falls for people, not gender, or maybe she doesn't like labels, but it is odd that the show presents her as only "gay for Emily" sometimes and then straight at all other times. 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417080
Jack Shaftoe August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) Now, Ezria is actually somewhere that I give the show a break. Look, I don't think they can make him evil. I think ABC Family just won't let them. The ship (as well as Toby) is just too popular. But the show has literally done everything in it's power to suggest that the man is a creep. And why is the ship so popular - because they romanticized the hell out of "dating your teacher" from the start. I doubt this was the network's idea. Also, if ABC Family were so concerned about that precious ship, they wouldn't have allowed the 4B fake-out season 5 and 6 limbo status of Ezria. I think it's much more likely that Marlene thinks Ian Harding is a great actor (bwahaha) and realizes pandering to shippers helps ratings. Toby..for me..is the Chivalrous guy. The protecter. The type that puts some women on a pedestal and does everything to protect them..while simultaneously belittling her..(taking away her autonomy/agency). I mean, that's pretty much his entire relationship with Spencer. I beg to differ. Toby was just fine until they decided to go with that infamous fake-out. If someone was taking somebody's agency in that relationship until that point, it was Spencer who constantly lied to him and kept him in the dark about things that concerned him too, ironically with the justification that she was trying to protect him. I see where she was coming from and I don't blame her this but if Spencer was a man and Toby a woman, Spencer would have been blamed for that a lot more. And then you see how he reacts to Ali..she's not the type of girl you put on that pedestal. Not the type of girl you try and protect. (Because she can protect herself? Because she is capable of blinding people and then mocking their disability? Would you be inclined to cut someone like that any slack? I know I wouldn't. And funnily enough, Toby was right that Alison would be bad news for Lorenzo, at least in the short term. But the show also makes it clear that there are some things that Caleb just can't understand, because even though he would be an honorary fifth liar, he's not really a liar. I see this as an annoying contrivance because they've never really came up with any convincing reason for keeping Caleb out of the loop once he learned that A was back. I really don't think there is a point the show is trying to make other than the meta reasoning of "we don't have enough screen time or money for a fifth Liar". And Jason..poor Jason. Jason is an example of "the patriarchy hurts us all.." Again, why "patriarchy"? It was a case of spectacularly bad parenting - by both parents, with Jessica arguably being worse in regards to Jason (because of the whole "I can't be bothered to prevent incest" thing). Are you assuming that Jessica is a terrible parent because of the patriarchy and if yes, why? The man Emily makes out with is the murderer of her ex and her latest girlfriend is part of the A team - two of the other Liars have lovers who are briefly presented as possible bad guys but of course those popular male lovers turn out to still be good guys. Spencer made out with Ian who later tried to murder her and forgave Toby in about ten seconds after his A-team stint, so I'm not really seeing the double standard here. Yes, Toby and Ezra are still regarded as good guys but it's (unfortunately) likely they are going to whitewash Sara too. The nonsense about Emily being attracted to Nate because he reminded her of Maya is indefensible, though. No straight character would ever decide to make out with someone of their own gender who reminds them of their dead significant other. starts out sweet but ends up jealous/weirdo, check (samara), Samara wasn't irrationally jealous or a weirdo. She had a legitimate reason to break with Emily who made it seems like she was hitting on one of Samara's friends. I've also seen people accuse PLL of bisexual erasure because many fans feel Alison is bisexual and that's pretty much been ignored. Isn't Jenna supposed to be bisexual too? Or her drama with Shana was platonic? The whole thing was so silly I don't really remember the details. Edited August 15, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe 3 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417111
SparedTurkey August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 From what I remember - Samara gave Emily the heave-ho because A had got her to be flirting with Samara's mates. I don't blame Samara to be fair. I think initially, the show got a lot of positive goodwill because IMK flat out said in the first season that they would keep Emily gay - unlike the books - and held true to that. (Possibly the only time she has told the truth?) Emily wasn't just gay for sweeps. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417115
fitzcarraldo August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 A chose to end it. The liars were pleading A, it'll make it worse, A will retaliate. How is it feminist that female victims of abuse stay abused unless the abuser (randomly) decides to give up. Only the male Caleb got to say A already had retaliated! Go along with abuse and hope it doesn't get worse? And THEIR pain and motive ("I had a,bad day at work, honey, I beat you because I love you") is the note years end on. Not the liars. They have to forgive, again. A was more important than the liars. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417122
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 On one hand I always thought it was interesting and maybe even a little progressive for a television show to have the lesbian character jumping from girl to girl because so often a show will pair up their queer characters as soon as possible and then leave them safely tethered together but never actually show them being romantic or sexual. Which PLL did sort of do with Emily and Paige when they were together for an extended period of time. But Emily's actually the only one of the main characters to be with multiple people. The only problem is we can't actually be sure that she's been intimate with any of her partners because it hasn't been explicitly shown or discussed as it was with the other girls and their boyfriends. So while they're not tying her into one "safe" relationship, they're still de-sexualizing her. I've also seen people accuse PLL of bisexual erasure because many fans feel Alison is bisexual and that's pretty much been ignored. She hooks up with Emily and tells her she has feelings for her but other than that, she's always linked to guys and her sexuality is never discussed. Maybe Alison's just the type of person who falls for people, not gender, or maybe she doesn't like labels, but it is odd that the show presents her as only "gay for Emily" sometimes and then straight at all other times. Well there's that one time where Emily and Paige shared a passionate kiss and Emily removed Paige's bra strap ferociously. Why was that in Spencer's study aids induced hallucination is one of the show's biggest mysteries by itself. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417206
william0102 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) Thanks for correcting me Spared Turkey and Jack Shaftoe :). So many plots/characters lol.I agree that the show got a ton of goodwill almost from the get go of Emily's storyline- yet here we all are discussing if Emily's had sex with any of her girlfriends, just like there was the question if CeCe had slept with Jason, and how we know Ali, Spencer, Hanna and Aria have all slept with a man, but have no idea if Ali and Emily slept together. Personally, I was pretty sure that Emily had slept with Maya and Paige because of the context of their scenes. I think Ali and Emily did have sex, it seemed like what would happen after the making out in bed scene, but I can see how people would think they didn't.Either way it kinda makes you wonder what that says when we can definitively say if a girl has slept with a man, but not if the woman is lesbian/bi/trans. Edited August 15, 2015 by william0102 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417269
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) I think it was Jack Shaftoe on the media thread, who made a very interesting point: that people see what they want to see in the show. To some extent, that is very true, and that's what a lot of the TV/Film critique industry relies on. Hitchcock for instance, said a lot of the interpretations and analysis were things he did not even think about while making his films. The only thing that was intended was the train sequence at the end of North by Northwest, which was a visual interpretation to intercourse. I think he was talking about the book written by Truffaut on his films, though I could be mistaken (it could also be the one written by Russell Taylor or any other books published more recently). Does this make it any less valid? No, and the fact that his works are still being studied until now reinforces this. We see the world through our own experiences and perceptions, does it mean the world is that we see it? Hardly. So what's important, is that we don't define the show by what we take from it, which is where Heather's and Jacob's writings and interpretations derail a bit. Jacob especially tends to repeat himself in terms of themes being explored on different shows (see Gossip Girls recaps and the PLL ones), so I think it's safe to say while he does offer some great insight, I think a lot of the time he is taking from the shows what he wants to take. I'm gonna share this with you guys because I feel it's important to what I'm trying to say. I live in a full on rape culture society. While Lebanon is better than most arab countries, it is still a heavily patriarchal society where women still suffer from domestic violence on a daily basis. Last year, a woman was beaten to death by her husband, who had been abusing her for a while; she had told her family about it, but they told her she is his wife and she should suck it up and basically just try to avoid making him angry. This woman called her parents somewhere in the middle of the attack, and they had to listen to her screaming for help to no avail. Honor crimes are still a thing here, which, if you don't know what that is, it's when someone kills someone else in order to defend their family honor. So if a girl has sex before marriage, or tries to run away with a guy, any member of the girl's family has the right to kill the girl and the guy and only be imprisoned for it for 30 days. A lot of cases have reported girls trying to run away with the first guy they meet to escape an incestuous abusive family member (usually a father or brother). Maids are "delivered" to your home to work for you for even less than minimum wage without any supervision/protection laws. So there's a good chunk of people who treat their maids as slaves, depriving them from food or water, or abusing them physically and or sexually. The LGTB community is no better, some people are arrested and raped out of hate by the police. Some are arrested indefinitely for being gay, some are murdered etc... The police here is one big mafia circle, there was a video all over the news a few weeks ago, about a guy who got beaten and stabbed to death by a coked up body guard of a high profile figure, in the middle of a street in the daylight, with policemen standing and watching. The reason? The other guy honked and swore at him when he double crossed him on the road, almost causing his car to drift off the road. It was only after the video was shared heavily on social networks, that the guy was arrested. The police's response was: don't swear at people because they might have a lethal weapon and use it against you. I have been harassed by countless police men, and abused at a very early age by a not so distant family member. I won't dwell much on the details, but while I never saw myself as a victim in this, I did carry the shame with me for a very long time, because when I tried to tell my mom and she addressed the family, the family treated me like a crazy person and suddenly all my cousins and aunts were trying to tell me it's all in my head (which by the way worked for a while, as I only remembered this incident about 10 years ago). I'm not saying it's the common consensus here, but the system is constructed in a way that these things happen quite often, and more often than not, the offenders suffer little to no punishment for their crimes. So for me, I picked up on the feminist side of this show quite early. Especially that I had taken a couple of courses in film theory and Auteur directors when I was in photography school. Around the end of season 3 my sister and I were discussing the show in terms of feminism, and she told me that I should read Jacob's recaps on TWoP and from there I found Heather's. I was thrilled that they were actually addressing and analyzing the feminist/patriarchy allusions on the show while snarking on the ridiculous things that happen every week. I don't agree with everything they say, but I also find some very valid truth in what they write. But I also realize that my background and my experiences, make me pick up on those things or sometimes change how I see a certain scene on the show. I don't think the show can be defined by its' feminism, especially not after the EzrA reveal, and how Ali has been handled since her comeback. As someone above in the Autostraddle post said, the show is open to interpretation, basically you can watch it for years for the crazy twists, the shocked faces and the crazy outfits without thinking about female agency/empowerment once, and you can dwell on the details and try to read between the lines. I'm still not sure what to make of the Charlotte story line, mostly because it didn't feel like a story line as much as a twist. Even if it was well intentioned on the writers side, a lot of people are furious about it, and those who are addressing the plot holes, are not transphobic, they are simply addressing a real problem that happened with this reveal, and I genuinely think the writers need to listen to them instead of pushing them off and saying oh well sorry if it makes you uncomfortable but it was vital for us to go there. At the end of the day, they're entitled to tell any story they want without needing to apologize for it. But I think, for this particular story to resonate, they needed to take more time. I wouldn't have minded if 6A started where it ended, with the liars discussing what they now know and then showing us how they got there through the episodes, which would have shown us the liars and Charlotte operating up until the reveal. Like someone above mentioned, I understand that they needed to include a trans female character, but I think they should have put more thought into it. Especially since they kept insisting: it's not the WHO, it's the why. It would've been more appropriate if they gave us the who and then walked us through the why and then have the finale be the long awaited confrontation with some meaningful and much necessary dialogue between the liars, Ali, and Charlotte. Edited August 15, 2015 by raytch 5 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417316
ottoDbusdriver August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 I agree that the show got a ton of goodwill almost from the get go of Emily's storyline- yet here we all are discussing if Emily's had sex with any of her girlfriends, just like there was the question if CeCe had slept with Jason, and how we know Ali, Spencer, Hanna and Aria have all slept with a man, but have no idea if Ali and Emily slept together. Personally, I was pretty sure that Emily had slept with Maya and Paige because of the context of their scenes. I think Ali and Emily did have sex, it seemed like what would happen after the making out in bed scene, but I can see how people would think they didn't. I'm pretty sure Emily and Alison hooked up in Season 5 around episode 5 or 6 when Alison was staying at Emily's house -- there was that one scene when they were both in same bed and Emily sits up with her back to the camera and she's topless and she leans down to kiss Alison. Fade to black. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417327
dohe August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 Thanks for correcting me Spared Turkey and Jack Shaftoe :). So many plots/characters lol. I agree that the show got a ton of goodwill almost from the get go of Emily's storyline- yet here we all are discussing if Emily's had sex with any of her girlfriends, just like there was the question if CeCe had slept with Jason, and how we know Ali, Spencer, Hanna and Aria have all slept with a man, but have no idea if Ali and Emily slept together. Personally, I was pretty sure that Emily had slept with Maya and Paige because of the context of their scenes. I think Ali and Emily did have sex, it seemed like what would happen after the making out in bed scene, but I can see how people would think they didn't. Either way it kinda makes you wonder what that says when we can definitively say if a girl has slept with a man, but not if the woman is lesbian/bi/trans. On one hand I always thought it was interesting and maybe even a little progressive for a television show to have the lesbian character jumping from girl to girl because so often a show will pair up their queer characters as soon as possible and then leave them safely tethered together but never actually show them being romantic or sexual. Which PLL did sort of do with Emily and Paige when they were together for an extended period of time. But Emily's actually the only one of the main characters to be with multiple people. The only problem is we can't actually be sure that she's been intimate with any of her partners because it hasn't been explicitly shown or discussed as it was with the other girls and their boyfriends. So while they're not tying her into one "safe" relationship, they're still de-sexualizing her. I've also seen people accuse PLL of bisexual erasure because many fans feel Alison is bisexual and that's pretty much been ignored. She hooks up with Emily and tells her she has feelings for her but other than that, she's always linked to guys and her sexuality is never discussed. Maybe Alison's just the type of person who falls for people, not gender, or maybe she doesn't like labels, but it is odd that the show presents her as only "gay for Emily" sometimes and then straight at all other times. I think we are supposed to believe that Emily had sex with Maya and Paige and it is likely we are supposed to assume Emily had sex with some of her other girlfriends. While it would be fair if they went the same route that they did with lengthy love scenes for Aria/Ezra and Spencer/Toby*, it still isn't like they need a lengthy love sequence to make it evident that there is a sexual relationship. Nor do they need Emily having a sequence where she discusses making love to one of her girlfriends. The show Chasing Life, which I have been down on but that is for that thread, made very clear that Brenna and Greer made love. It wasn't some minute long sequence. The sequence faded out after a few seconds. However there was no doubt they made love. That said, the ugliest moment in the representation of Emily was her and Nate kissing. This comment by Jack Shaftoe could not be more right. The nonsense about Emily being attracted to Nate because he reminded her of Maya is indefensible, though. No straight character would ever decide to make out with someone of their own gender who reminds them of their dead significant other. *My preference for this show would be for all the liars to have their love sequences treated equally and for none of the sequences to be handled in such a lengthy, is this sequence going to end manner. If there is any doubt that the show romanticizes the heck out of Ezra/Aria, their love sequence rivals their meeting in the rain as the ultimate proof that the show does. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417340
itainttippithebird August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) It has always kinda bugged me that they allude to Emily having sex, but they explicitly acknowledge it for the other girls. I don't mind the "fade to black, draw your own conclusions" style of showing sex, but it sticks out when it's only the queer sex that gets that treatment! Especially evident in that "I"ll Be Watching You" sequence, where we see Aria's bare back while she's RIDING Ezra (eww) but with Ali and Emily we just see a clothed embrace and then the camera wanders off. Again - I don't ship anything on this show, so I'm not pissed about the specifics, just the general principle. Speaking of: there was that one scene when they were both in same bed and Emily sits up with her back to the camera and she's topless and she leans down to kiss Alison. Fade to black. ...that was Aria's back with Ezra, not Emily with Alison. Unfortch! This is Ezra's bed, not Em's: Still, I definitely think we are supposed to believe Emily is having sex (synchronized breast stokes in the pool, hmm?!), but they don't show it or talk about it as explicitly. Edited August 15, 2015 by itainttippithebird Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417375
SadieT August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 I'm pretty sure Emily and Alison hooked up in Season 5 around episode 5 or 6 when Alison was staying at Emily's house -- there was that one scene when they were both in same bed and Emily sits up with her back to the camera and she's topless and she leans down to kiss Alison. Fade to black. The Emily/Alison scene in that episode is intercut with an Aria/Ezra scene and its Aria who is shown topless from behind in bed, sitting on top of her former teacher who used to stalk her and her friends. Which just goes to show, the inappropriate straight couple got an obvious sex scene and the lesbian couple got an ambiguous kissing scene where the interpretation of what happened between them is left up to the audience. I had assumed they just kissed because that's all we saw and it didn't necessarily look like it was leading anywhere else. Also a couple of episodes later Alison shows Emily the scar on her thigh and Emily is shocked to see it (er, I think she's shocked...little hard to tell with Shay as she pretty much always looks shocked) but yeah, I'd assume Emily would have seen it already if they had had sex. However plenty of people who saw that same scene assume they did have sex. And Im not saying they need to show much when it comes to Emily and her girlfriends but they've shown significantly less with her and her partners than they have with the other girls, so much so that it can just as easily be assumed Emily is a virgin as it can be assumed she's slept with multiple girls. And we've seen all the other girls talk about having sex with their boyfriends but again, never Emily. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417388
Sakura12 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 where we see Aria's bare back while she's RIDING Ezra (eww) gahhh, did you really need to post the gif? I don't really see how a show about girls terrorizing other girls shows us a patriarchal society. Yes, all but one have horrible fathers, but I saw nothing on screen that suggested that their fathers oppressed them so they had to act out by hurting other women. We met Alison's father in season 5 I think and we just heard about his treatment of Charlotte in this last episode. Even with that it seemed like Jessica was the one that continued the charade by keeping Charlotte in Radley, faking Charles death, letting her son think he made up having a brother, let him date CeCe knowing full well that was his sister. I can't watch PLL and get to deep into it, it's a stupid show, so I'm not going to think too hard about what messages it's sending because if I do, it's showing me that not just men hurt us, women are hurting each other as well. How is that helping our cause? We should be working together, not terrorizing each other for fun. We also shouldn't instantly forgive anyone that does that. This show just seems to use mental illness as an excuse not that the men in society made them that way. Then they can't present Ezaria as the romance of the century, while also telling us that Garret, Wilden, baker guy and all the other men in Rosewood are creepers for hitting on teenagers. They are all creepers and Ezra the creepiest of all since he was spying on teenage girls with a bunch of cameras watching their every move! It's not the men in society that's holding these girls back from taking back their agency, they have to be stupid and do stupid things so this show can continue for another 10 years. 6 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417508
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 My take on Jessica is that the writers tried to show her as a woman in an impossible situation. Which would have been great if we didn't know that she had 2 affairs outside her marriage. If it wasn't for that it would have been easy to believe that she did love her husband and wanted to find a way to keep him while still taking care of Charlotte. But seriously... She could have avoided all this when he wanted to send off Charlotte to Radley. Just call him on his shit, tell him the real reason he's admitting her is because he has serious trouble accepting who she is and leave his conservative ass with the 3 kids. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417551
fitzcarraldo August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 My take on Jessica is that the writers tried to show her as a woman in an impossible situation. Which would have been great if we didn't know that she had 2 affairs outside her marriage. If it wasn't for that it would have been easy to believe that she did love her husband and wanted to find a way to keep him while still taking care of Charlotte. But seriously... She could have avoided all this when he wanted to send off Charlotte to Radley. Just call him on his shit, tell him the real reason he's admitting her is because he has serious trouble accepting who she is and leave his conservative ass with the 3 kids. Ken thought Charles was dead and Jessica still kept her kid in Radley. Ken would never have known. Ken also was way harsh to Jason. Jessica can't have been loving, anyway, if she egged Ali to bully and went after Spencer. Her treatment of Spencer, plus the Bethany tapes, depict her as a terrible force in the lives of her children's paramours. Saying I love you to Cece and Jason does not a good mama make. Or a well intentioned one. Bethany was a mental patient for heck's sake. Who butters up a disturbed person you have power over? People who mean well? I don't think she calls for benefit of the doubt. That job for Ashley is weird now too. Did she know Cece killed Wilden? Like that job makes up for Ashley doing jail time? Ali suggested it in "a dream" and also knew Ashley was innocent. Seems to me the Dilaurentis ladies like to think better of themselves more than actually being good. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417574
ottoDbusdriver August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 Still, I definitely think we are supposed to believe Emily is having sex (synchronized breast stokes in the pool, hmm?!), but they don't show it or talk about it as explicitly. My bad -- I guess the editing back and forth between the two scenes was a tad confusing. 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417607
Jack Shaftoe August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) gahhh, did you really need to post the gif? I was just about to say that. My take on Jessica is that the writers tried to show her as a woman in an impossible situation. Which would have been great if we didn't know that she had 2 affairs outside her marriage. If it wasn't for that it would have been easy to believe that she did love her husband and wanted to find a way to keep him while still taking care of Charlotte. My (cynical) take is that the writers either didn't care about characterization in the slightest or they assumed that a dead female character was going to get more sympathy than the alive male character who has been behaving awfully this season. They could have made it clear if Jessica was deceived by Kenneth about the incidents or clarified if he himself believed Charles a threat to Alison. They could have made it clear that Kenneth was the one with the money and Jessica didn't want to divorce him because she enjoyed being rich. They could have made Kenneth the one who had connections at Radley and played Jessica faking Charles's death as the only way to get him out of there. In short, they could have planned things instead of making stuff up as they went along, which would have avoided the ridiculous Cece-Jason hook-up and Jessica's complicity in it, as well. It's not the men in society that's holding these girls back from taking back their agency, they have to be stupid and do stupid things so this show can continue for another 10 years. Well said. It has always kinda bugged me that they allude to Emily having sex, but they explicitly acknowledge it for the other girls. I don't mind the "fade to black, draw your own conclusions" style of showing sex, but it sticks out when it's only the queer sex that gets that treatment! And it gets even weirder because other ABC Family shows have no problem making it clear that lesbian/bisexual female characters having sex so it's unlikely that the network is forcing PLL to keep things vague. I have the suspicion that at least in the case of Alison and Emily they kept things vague because they wanted to please the Emison shippers but without annoying too much the Emily/someone else shippers. I wouldn't put it past Marlene. Okay, since I am being quite critical these days, let me add something I like - the way the difference between the wealth of the parents isn't referenced all the time. On Gossip Girl, for instance, there were endless anvils about how rich some characters were and how poor in comparison to them Dan and his family were. On PLL we have had some arguments between Spencer and Hanna or Emily regarding her privileged background but nothing more. At first Spencer's family was ridiculously competitive, in a cartoonish way, along with unsubtle messages how you need that to be rich and successful but this didn't last, thankfully. Edited August 15, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417642
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 Honestly, I never understood how the Humphreys were poor and yet could afford to own a house in Brooklyn. I mean... It's not much but in NY prices it still has to cost a fortune. They also owned that gallery / coffee shop or whatever that was. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1417844
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 Found this old article about the EzrA reveal back in season 4. Ezra's research proved invaluable... http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwieselman/lucy-hale-aria-finds-out-interview#.okVX8z5zy Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418062
lion10 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 Honestly, I never understood how the Humphreys were poor and yet could afford to own a house in Brooklyn. I mean... It's not much but in NY prices it still has to cost a fortune. They also owned that gallery / coffee shop or whatever that was. The gallery/coffee shop was how they made their money wasn't it? Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418087
raytch August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 The gallery/coffee shop was how they made their money wasn't it? Yeah but to own that and an apartment you have to have a pretty good amount to begin with. Anyway, sorry for straying away from the thread. I often go on tangents :) Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418163
Cranberry August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 If anyone has questions for Heather, Jacob, and/or the guys of Bros Watch PLL Too, here's your chance: http://broswatchplltoo.tumblr.com/post/126768371862/pll-roundtable-just-a-reminder-well-be-doing 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418294
william0102 August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 (edited) Someone should send them the link to the Huffington Post article, and ask their opinions. I don't think I'd be able to write anything short enough, lol.http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/pretty-little-liars-trans_b_7979754.html Edited August 15, 2015 by william0102 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418370
itainttippithebird August 15, 2015 Share August 15, 2015 I sent them a few questions an Marco from Bros Watch said he would pose them! We'll see how it goes... 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418391
mercfan3 August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 (edited) Okay, I thought it was obvious that Emily slept with Maya, Paige, and Allison? What was the show supposed to do in terms of making it more clear? And sex comes up very little between the girls, anyway. We've seen Ali truly attracted to four people...Ezra,Ian, Emily, and Lorenzo. Any other time she uses her sexuality it's for power. (And I'd argue her attraction to Lorenzo might be more because he didn't know her before she tried to change....and Ezra might have just been because he was an older college guy..probs to impress CeCe)That's not really "exclusively men, except for Emily..that's more..we haven't really gotten to see Ali's relationship. Personally, I still think she'll end up with Emily. Jenna's in the same boat..we see her use men all the time, but we only got confirmation that she actually loved Shanna. And I agree with the above about we see things through our own experiences. In University I focused on women's studies and english. I'm probably going to see more symbolism/analogies/feminist themes etc..than someone who hasn't. I also think people don't give the Marlene and Co enough credit. They've got some serious flaws..they really do. But there are some times where they are straight on. For example, there was one episode that was supposed to give away who was A in the first three seasons. It was supposed to be a major clue. The clue ended up being a camera angle. People thought it was bullshit..but that's literally film 101 (and I kicked myself for not picking up on it through my rewatch.) Edited August 16, 2015 by mercfan3 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418412
dohe August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 Okay, I thought it was obvious that Emily slept with Maya, Paige, and Allison? What was the show supposed to do in terms of making it more clear? And sex comes up very little between the girls, anyway. They could have, as with the other liars, made it clear. That is what the show could have done. An example of the double standard depicted is the Aria/Ezra and Emily/Allison sequence. Emily and Allison are shown kissing. Cut to Ezra and Aria who are kissing, legs are shown entangled, Aria asks if that hurts, Ezra says he can handle it, then the final shot has Aria, wearing nothing, straddling Ezra as she lifts the sheet to her neck and she lowers herself down to him. It is not difficult to make it clear. I pointed out earlier that Chasing Life made clear Brenna and Greer made love. It wasn't a lengthy lovemaking sequence. 2 to 3 seconds. However, with those few seconds, no one there is going I don't know if they made love or not. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418573
SparedTurkey August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 I go back and forward on the Emily/girlfriend sex. I reckon it was clear enough that her and Maya slept together at Spencers - And I think that scene was a product of its time. Clear but not crystal, because it couldn't be then. With Paige - I don't know. They never really showed or alluded to it IMO. And I hope never with Alison because Emily could do better. But also ambiguous. I also go back and forth on Paige as a love interest - yes she tried to drown Emily which was completely awful (and I will forever love Spencer for immediately wanting to kill her for it - cause Emily/Spencer don't get enough show time) - but compared to Toby/Ezra that seems like a miniscule thing. Paige didn't hook up with Emily or stalk her for 2+years because she was writing a book and didn't screw the girls by joing the A team/Stealing evidence off them or blame Spencer for eating pot gummie-bears not meant for him and generally acting like a tool. She wasn't even a legitimate A suspect for longer than 2 episodes. I guess, considering the alternatives, an endgame relationship for Emily (if there has to be one) for me, would be Paige. I mean, she felt guilty for snogging Emily once she realised Emily was drugged - has Ezra even looked slightly apologetic for the whole stalking thing? I also think there is no way Paige wouldn't have come back and teamed up with Caleb to find them during the whole bunker-thing, but that may just be me. I do like that the show has had Emily be with a number of other girls/women without being judged for it by the other girls or even her parents (post-Maya) - that seems more normal and real than finding her one!true!love! at 16 like Aria/Spencer and sticking by them no matter what. (I am giving Hanna a pass because Caleb is Caleb and is just awesome.) I also think the show has a bit of a feminist-disconnect with Mona. They have obviously kept her around because Mona is a great character (which is true and I love to hate the character. I mean she has an actual Stiletto shoe!). But they haven't tried to rehabilitate her, which I dislike possibly more than I appreciate because: Mona was A for seasons 1-2 and did awful things. The girls and Caleb are right to be sus of her - unquestionably. BUT this is the same show where the main OTP from day 1 turned out to be an overage predatory stalker who has suffered absolutely ZERO consequences for it and was actually redemed by the show. Ezra was a fully adult male who chose to stalk four 16 year old girls AND to hook up with one of those girls knowing she was underage, that he would be her teacher and that she didn't know. At the very least, Mona was also underaged and given a mental illness diagnosis (which in real life is crap, but that is what the show wants to peddle. It would have been better to have gone with PTSD from bullying IMO but whatever). Plus, Mona, even though it took awhile, has actually apologised for what she did. Ezra got shot and that's it? I don't think Mona is pure or golden and I love that Caleb unreservedly hates her. But for an otherwise mostly feminist show - why is a male predator redemed and Mona not? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418635
mercfan3 August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 They could have, as with the other liars, made it clear. That is what the show could have done. An example of the double standard depicted is the Aria/Ezra and Emily/Allison sequence. Emily and Allison are shown kissing. Cut to Ezra and Aria who are kissing, legs are shown entangled, Aria asks if that hurts, Ezra says he can handle it, then the final shot has Aria, wearing nothing, straddling Ezra as she lifts the sheet to her neck and she lowers herself down to him. It is not difficult to make it clear. I pointed out earlier that Chasing Life made clear Brenna and Greer made love. It wasn't a lengthy lovemaking sequence. 2 to 3 seconds. However, with those few seconds, no one there is going I don't know if they made love or not. I just thought it was clear. Maya's was a dark romantic room with candles and a final goodbye...like..it was obvious. And Ali's was them making out on a bed...cutting back and forth between Ezria scene. Could they have had them undressed? I suppose, although Sasha had just turned 18. That was certainly the most sexual thing she had done on camera, which is saying something considering the character's reputation. I'm also almost positive that Hanna has teased her about sleeping with Paige in one of those rare moments they talk about sex. And I feel like we're going off topic here..but Emily is the only character who has fighting fanbases over her true love. That's not selling the character short, that's giving the lesbian character the most attention. What made the Emily character unable to be in a relationship like Hanna/Spencer/Aria is that from the beginning, we had her feelings with Ali, and fans paired the two of them together. And not until Paige did we get a character that some fans liked as Emily's "True Love" 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1418668
Jack Shaftoe August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 (edited) That's not really "exclusively men, except for Emily..that's more..we haven't really gotten to see Ali's relationship. Yes, it is. Technically, even if it were just two men it would still have been "exclusively men, except for Emily". Plus, you are forgetting Alison's crush on Toby which came from nowhere and was quickly forgotten and ignored. :) Jenna's in the same boat..we see her use men all the time, but we only got confirmation that she actually loved Shanna. She was quite obsessed with Toby, though, so I really wouldn't say her feelings for Shanna were stronger for sure. It is not difficult to make it clear. I pointed out earlier that Chasing Life made clear Brenna and Greer made love. It wasn't a lengthy lovemaking sequence. 2 to 3 seconds. However, with those few seconds, no one there is going I don't know if they made love or not. Exactly. I for one, do not want long sex scenes, like the infamous Toby/Spencer scenes in 3.12 and 3.24. But removing the ambiguity is something that's very easy to do and doesn't take any additional screen time. What made the Emily character unable to be in a relationship like Hanna/Spencer/Aria is that from the beginning, we had her feelings with Ali, and fans paired the two of them together. And not until Paige did we get a character that some fans liked as Emily's "True Love" Many consider Maya to be Emily's true love to this very day. And in any event, Paige became a love interest roughly at the same time when Toby and Caleb did, so it's not like she was introduced years later. But for an otherwise mostly feminist show - why is a male predator redemed and Mona not? They are both redeemed. It was done terribly in both cases, but still. Mona is trusted less because she hurt the girls way more than Ezra did (except for arguably Aria, but we all know she has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Ezra). Plus, he took a bullet for them!11111!! Ezzria forever! (that was sarcasm). I also think there is no way Paige wouldn't have come back and teamed up with Caleb to find them during the whole bunker-thing, but that may just be me. Not just you. If anyone has questions for Heather, Jacob, and/or the guys of Bros Watch PLL Too, here's your chance: I would like to ask Heather about her sweeping of Jessica's crimes under the carpet or about this quote: The Liars don’t forgive Charlotte because they feel sorry for her; they forgive her because they see themselves in her. ... but I probably won't because I doubt the answer will be any different than "But the patriarchy....". I know I am harping on it too much but I just can't help but think that some of these reviewers see the Liars as more of helpless victims than even Marlene and co. Edited August 16, 2015 by Jack Shaftoe 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1419021
fitzcarraldo August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 Maybe Ali identified with Cece but I can't swallow the others did. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1419042
SparedTurkey August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 (edited) Mona is trusted less because she hurt the girls way more than Ezra did (except for arguably Aria, but we all know she has a bit of a blind spot when it comes to Ezra). I'm not saying they need to trust Mona. I am saying it is bizzare that the show has a predatory male being a constant source of comfort to the girls after having stalked them for years. I mean, he had a freaking lair too. I guess my main point is that the show has fallen over themselves redeeming male characters that just shouldn't be. I feel like it should be one-in-all-in. Plus - they don't even trust Jenna for no reason, and as far as I can tell, Jenna never actually did anything to the girls - well, except Caleb, and has been the victim of attempted murder twice. From what I remember she was covering up what she thought was a murder she was there fore but couldn't see. And she wasn't even right about it. I mean, the PLLs need to get their priorities sorted. Its just strange that the girls don't trust any other girl on the show (for good and sometimes invalid reasons) but the blokes get a pass on truly gross issues. This show. Edited August 16, 2015 by SparedTurkey 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1419090
Jack Shaftoe August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 Jenna tried to frame them for murder in season 2. And raped one of their friends. And was in cahoots with Shanna who tried to kill the Liars. And hates them. I don't why she should ever trust them or they her. I am saying it is bizzare that the show has a predatory male being a constant source of comfort to the girls after having stalked them for years. Of course it's bizarre but hardly any more bizarre than Mona being allowed to go back to the same school after her A stint and the Liars trusting her whenever the plot requires it. Or Emily having feelings for Alison who treated her like dirt and drove Paige to the brink of suicide. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1419099
lion10 August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 I'm not saying they need to trust Mona. I am saying it is bizzare that the show has a predatory male being a constant source of comfort to the girls after having stalked them for years. I mean, he had a freaking lair too. I guess my main point is that the show has fallen over themselves redeeming male characters that just shouldn't be. I feel like it should be one-in-all-in. Plus - they don't even trust Jenna for no reason, and as far as I can tell, Jenna never actually did anything to the girls - well, except Caleb, and has been the victim of attempted murder twice. From what I remember she was covering up what she thought was a murder she was there fore but couldn't see. And she wasn't even right about it. I mean, the PLLs need to get their priorities sorted. Its just strange that the girls don't trust any other girl on the show (for good and sometimes invalid reasons) but the blokes get a pass on truly gross issues. This show. And thus is why I hesitate to call the show this great feminist triumph. I can see forgiving Toby, but Ezra? The guy legitimately stalked Aria knowing she was going to be his student and he gets a pass by Marlene and Co? And it's not like Aria's trust in him is portrayed as naive or as the victim of abuse returning to the abuser. It's portrayed as romantic and an example of "love conquers all". And considering the age range of the young women who watch the show, it's very irresponsible. I don't care how many jabs are made about Ezra in the show, grow some balls and call him an out and out predator. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1419108
superman1204 August 16, 2015 Share August 16, 2015 Am I the only one who doesn't have a problem with the number of girls Emily has dated, at least for the first four seasons? Seasons 1 and 2 was Emily coming out and exploring her sexuality by dating various girls, which the other three girls presumably did, just earlier in life. Season 3 and 4, Emily was together with Paige and they had a stable (if somewhat boring) relationship, like the rest of the girls. Even seasons 5 and 6A can be explained less by a double standard and more by poor writing. Don't get me wrong, I hate that the writers have had Emily jump from Paige to Alison back to Paige to Talia to Sara. It makes Emily seem like a hugely insecure character, which makes no sense with the rest of Emily's character. That being said, do we actually know if the writers wanted to get rid of Paige or if Lindsey Shaw just wanted out? I mean Lindsey never struck me as a future academy award winner, but Toby and Ezra had both gotten not-A story arcs and Caleb had a (failed) spinoff. Maybe Lindsey just felt if the writers weren't going to do anything with her character she might as well move on to other project. If the writers simply needed something to do with Emily's love life (because none of the Lairs can be single for two seconds), I can completely see the writers thinking Talia and Sara were good love interests. In fact all of the girls have thrown themselves at random love interests since season 4, the only difference is Emily didn't have a significant other to run back to afterwards. Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420213
lion10 August 17, 2015 Share August 17, 2015 (edited) Talia was strange and a little creepy. A grown woman romantically misleading a high schooler on the status of her marriage and then moving into her house? Edited August 17, 2015 by lion10 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420308
lion10 August 17, 2015 Share August 17, 2015 One thing that keeps confusing me about Heather Hogan's posts is her insistence that it's the patriarchy that forces women to compete against and terrorize each other and that the core of the show is about the ways men claim ownership over the body of women. Within the show, the patriarchy has to me seemed more like a hindrance to the girls than a direct threat like A is. Something that makes the their lives harder that it otherwise would be. It's around the edges of their world but it only rarely enters such as the case of Hanna and Ella's creepy fiance. But the main and direct threats to the Liars have consistently been other women in the forms of Alison, Jenna, Mona, and Cece. Alison attacked Emily's sexuality and body shamed Hanna by calling her "Hefty Hanna". Jenna framed the Liars for murder and had Caleb seduce Hanna to hurt her. And behind it all was Mona. Mona hit Hanna with a car and caused Emily to be hospitalized. She's the reason why Emily was found with HGH in her bloodstream. She tried to kill Spencer at the cliff. Both of those things are huge violations of bodily autonomy. And what "patriarchy" did Mona suffer through? She was unpopular but many kids were. Lucas never went full psycho. Her relationship with Noel Kahn didn't go that well and he was a bit of jerk to her during the breakup with throwing the necklace or bracelet into the trash but those are very minor troubles. And for all we know, Mona doesn't even have a dad at home, so he can't be blamed for what she did. The only person who can be blamed for Mona's viciousness is herself. Her fear of losing Hanna and her lingering resentment of how the Liars and especially Alison excluded her from their group. Cece was the worst of all with her numerous attacks on the Liars. She put a note in Hanna's mouth when she was knocked out, inserted trackers into the Liars' bodies, and stripped them naked and them posted photos of them in the faux morgue on the art gallery walls of Aria's showing, humiliating them. Cece explicitly referred to the girls as "my dolls". And while Cece had a terrible upbringing, she was fully grown when she decided to mess with the Liars' lives. Her choices are on her, not the patriarchy. And I'd just like to point out that while Kenneth overreacted, he made a comment that something like Cece accidentally almost drowning had happened before, hinting at something wrong with her. And I think dismissing these actions as all things the patriarchy is ultimately responsible for is denying the perpetrators agency as well as being naive about human nature. How is the patriarchy responsible for Alison blinding Jenna and Jenna raping Toby? And more than that, groups in fight all the time. I'm a black guy who's racial group faces racial discrimination but that doesn't stop people within the group from fighting, disliking, gossiping, avoiding, and even killing those they don't get along with. Not everyone is going to like everyone they meet or even be willing to tolerate them. Ingroup chaos doesn't always have to be caused by internalized sexism or racism. I do think patriarchal oppression is a theme of the show but a larger theme to me has been the cruelty of women towards other women. 2 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420569
mercfan3 August 17, 2015 Share August 17, 2015 Literally, the show is about women. It features women..the villains are women, the victims are women. But what Heather is saying is A is symbolic of the patriarchy. She's also saying, that outside of A..the girls often have "hinderances" because of patriarchal norms...but the reality is, so doesn't A. (In both cases) Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420598
lion10 August 17, 2015 Share August 17, 2015 Literally, the show is about women. It features women..the villains are women, the victims are women. But what Heather is saying is A is symbolic of the patriarchy. She's also saying, that outside of A..the girls often have "hinderances" because of patriarchal norms...but the reality is, so doesn't A. (In both cases) But A is a woman. For both Mona and Cece. So doesn't that destroy Heather's central point? 1 Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420634
fitzcarraldo August 17, 2015 Share August 17, 2015 Wilde was an example of patriarchy. Also when Ian was believed over Spencer. But that doesn't mean everything is. I'm not convinced pll is anti patriarchy, either. Aria's using Andrew in 5b? She was a textbook example of what mras claim women are like. Be there for me 24/7 and I might kiss you. She's not seeming to realize it, either, nor does Spencer when also using Andrew. Jenna and Ali are shown as aware of using men. Jenna is the villain to Toby. She frames Garret when done with him. Is pll not doing this women use men too much in this thoughtless way? Aria attacked Hanna over Zac. That time I didn't feel pll was condoning it but then Emily gets in the disgusted face that Spencer kissed another guy. Toby had ghosted Spence! How can you know you're still dating if he won't talk to you? Ill also never understand why Toby flaunted the "danger" of Jenna controlling him every. Time. He and Spencer are broken up. Like it is a contest and Spencer should be scared if he's not with her he's Jenna's. That disturbed me (and also why I can't stand Toby). Link to comment https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/30396-social-and-cultural-themes-a-is-for-activism/#findComment-1420671
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