Mulder and Scully: Partners Together in Crime.

[madam magpie]

I can only go by what CC has said himself. This comes from my Official X-Files companion:

Another point of contention [with the network] involved the nature of the relationship between the leads. Carter insisted that they stay clearly platonic despite those urging him to establish more sexual chemistry. "Chris from the beginning always said, "It's not going to be Moonlighting" notes Greenblatt.

"A big part off my job during the August to May scope of that pilot creation was protecting against that" Carter contends. "I was really the lone voice saying we cannot have these people romantically involved. There cannot be real sexual tension here or else the show won't work. As soon as you have them looking googly eyed at each other, they're not going to want to go out and chase these aliens. The relationship will supplant or subvert what's going to make the show great, which is the pursuit of these cases

Yes. Which is why I have the opinion that I do.

Although it does not say so in my book, this stinks of network intervention to me. They gave Chris a hard time about wanting to hire GA and he says he basically put his foot down on the issue. That was in the book. He talks about how the network execs wanted him to hire someone sexier.

I see no contradictions here. The platonic nature of the relationship is what remained most important. They don't make googly eyes at each other. This isn't Moonlighting. There isn't much traditional sexual tension. Chris Carter did that on purpose. That's my ENTIRE point.

That said, I do believe the network meddled a lot in the beginning and that it was a lot directed at Scully and who Chris Carter wanted her to be. They never wanted Gillian. They wanted to fire her when she got pregnant. They made her walk behind Mulder for a long time. They paid her pittance as compared to her co-lead. And on and on. But I've always believed that had to do with sexism and a battle between the kind of woman Chris Carter (and later Gillian) wanted her to be and the patriarchal view of the network. And it continues to be a battle. Didn't they initially offer her half of David's salary for this revival? As though you could do this show without Scully. Sometimes the writer has to navigate that crap too and plan around it, but I don't see how it speaks poorly of Carter at all.

Edited February 16, 2016 by madam magpie

[HalcyonDays]

Alright guys. Let's move on from the back and forth arguing over CC writing abilities (good or bad). It's starting to sound like Agent Einstein is here. Thanks.

[madam magpie]

You're the one invested in saying that Carter had some grand plan for Mulder and Scully's romantic relationship and now you're backtracking on it. So I don't know what we're arguing about either.

Maybe. Or maybe you read a lot more into my original point than I actually said.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Maybe. Or maybe you read a lot more into my original point than I actually said.

 

Okay, well, I would say that you are taking what are ultimately rather mild but legitimate criticisms of Chris Carter's writing awfully personally, but to each his or her own.  And with that, I hope to move on from this conversation because it has become about Carter and not about Mulder and Scully.

[festivus]

I'm not looking to argue. I was just asked if what I honestly believed is that CC didn't intend them to be a couple at the start and yes going by the things he said I do believe that. Obviously he changed his mind somewhere along the way. 

[HalcyonDays]

Um, did you two not read the note above?? Knock it off and move on. If you want to continue the back and forth, PM each other.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Sorry, Halcyon Days, I didn't actually see the post until after I'd posted.

[HalcyonDays]

Sorry, Halcyon Days, I didn't actually see the post until after I'd posted.

No worries. We don''t mind the discussion of CC and his writing. It's the tone and back and forth beating of dead horses that's getting dicey.

 

To contribute, I remember reading too that FOX wanted a sexier Scully, and CC was very adamant that is was GA hired or forget it. He fought hard for her, which is interesting because I don't think CC had as much clout back then. When she became pregnant in real life, GA was terrified that she would be fired, because of FOX wanted a "hotter" agent, but CC assured her there was no way that would happen, which was good of him.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

So I have been giving more thought to the question of why it was important for me for the show to confirm the nature of the relationship between Mulder and Scully.  And it comes back to me thinking that there is actually a difference between being intimately involved with someone and not being intimately involved with someone.

 

In my head, I was comparing it to one of the best depictions of a non-sexual male/female relationship on television, which to my mind is Don Draper and Peggy Olson on Mad Men.  Throughout the seven seasons of that show, we saw a connection between Don and Peggy that was interesting and fairly deep but, of course, they were never sexually involved.  And so the nature of that story was also one of trust between these two characters but really, it was a story of mentor/mentee and how that relationship changes and it wasn't really one of two people meeting on an equal playing field. 

 

I actually think that the best thing the writers ever wrote for Mad Men was the relationship between Don and Peggy, and they should be proud of that, but it is markedly different from the relationship between Mulder and Scully.  A mentor/mentee relationship, even a close platonic friendship, isn't the same as the relationship between two lovers.  And that is ultimately what Mulder and Scully were all along - lovers - but without actually knowing that a physical relationship existed, it just seemed like two people who were torturing each other like they were in some sort of Bronte novel for no reason whatsoever.  And at the beginning of the series, I was totally fine with the slow burn (because it made sense for both characters) but at some point, it just seemed like the writers were jerking everyone around and were approaching the reality of an adult sexual relationship as something gross.  And since I was an adult at the time, I didn't like that.

 

Thankfully, they seem to have moved on from that attitude, which is great. But it still took too long.

Edited February 19, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[madam magpie]

But can you imagine a scenario where the line between plutonic friends and lovers is so blurred that even the participants struggle to find their place in it? Because the friendship is so strong? Or how about a non-sexual relationship that's even closer than lovers? Does such a thing exist? I'd say Peggy knew Don better and was closer to him than all of the women he slept with except Betty. What if the plutonic relationship is so valuable that the addition of a sexual dynamic is too much of a risk?

For me, sex is a part of a relationship; I don't want it to define the relationship. I also believe that intimacy and trust are far more valuable. Not that I'm not totally pro sex. I am. But I don't think sex is what breeds intimacy. If it were, we'd all fall madly in love with everyone we sleep with. I think sex is more of an indicator of intimacy, though certainly not always and not the only one. I mean, what if your partner ca't perform physically for some medical reason? Does that negate the value of the relationship or make it less than one of lovers? I don't think so.

Peggy/Don was brilliant storytelling. I totally agree with that. And in some ways, I think it's a good comparison, but I also think the difference has more to do with love vs. in love. Peggy and Don love each other for sure, but they were never in love. (Thank god.) Mulder and Scully seem to me to be in love for most of the series, and for much longer than I think they even realized. I'm on season two now, at the part where Scully's been abducted. To me, they seem completely in love already and committed to each other, but sort of unaware and/or scared of it. (I think Mulder's unaware and Scully's a bit scared of it.) The depth of Mulder's sadness that she may die is heartbreaking. He's reacting like her family, which is really what they become to each other, much more so than just lovers. I find sex alone to be pretty empty, actually. It needs all the other stuff to be the relationship. So whether or not they'd taken that extra step means very little to me. (Except that they're both pretty, and I am very much in favor of pretty people making out.)

Edited February 19, 2016 by madam magpie

[eleanorofaquitaine]

But can you imagine a scenario where the line between plutonic friends and lovers is so blurred that even the participants struggle to find their place in it? Because the friendship is so strong? Or how about a non-sexual relationship that's even closer than lovers? Does such a thing exist? I'd say Peggy knew Don better and was closer to him than all of the women he slept with except Betty. What if the plutonic relationship is so valuable that the addition of a sexual dynamic is too much of a risk?

For me, sex is a part of a relationship; I don't want it to define the relationship. I also believe that intimacy and trust are far more valuable than sex in any relationship. Not that I'm not totally pro sex. I am. But I don't think sex is what breeds intimacy. If it were, we'd all fall madly in love with everyone we sleep with. I think sex is more of an indicator of intimacy, though certainly not always and not the only one. I mean, what if your partner ca't perform physically? What if he's paralyzed? Does that negate the value of the relationship or make it less than one of lovers? I don't think so.

Peggy/Don was brilliant storytelling. I totally agree with that. And in some ways, I think it's a good comparison, but I also think the difference has more to do with love vs. in love. Peggy and Don love each other for sure, but they were never in love. (Thank god.) Mulder and Scully seem to me to be in love for most of the series, and for much longer than I think they even realized. I'm on season two now, at the part where Scully's been abducted. To me, they seem completely in love already and committed to each other, but sort of unaware and/or scared of it. (I think Mulder's unaware and Scully's a bit scared of it.) The depth of Mulder's sadness that she may die is heartbreaking. He's reacting like her family, which is really what they become to each other, much more so than just lovers and which I think is much more valuable. I find sex alone to be pretty empty, actually. It needs all the other stuff to be the relationship. So whether or not they'd taken that extra step means very little to me. (Except that they're both pretty, and I am very much in favor of pretty people making out.)

 

I really cannot imagine a scenario where a non-sexual relationship is closer than lovers, no.  Note, I didn't say that I cannot imagine a scenario where a non-sexual relationship is closer than just two people having sex. But lovers? No. Lovers are, to me, the closest relationship that two people can have (absent the bonds of family - and it's probably not a mistake that The X-Files examines the bonds of both the Mulder and Scully clans).

 

Just for me (and I know that this is not something that is universally shared), sex absolutely does breed intimacy. I don't have sex with people with whom I am not intimate - so no one night stands, etc. I am not judging those who do, I am just saying how it is for me. And I also, I feel a loss of intimacy when sex disappears from the relationship. 

 

This is all a moot point, in any case, because we do know that there was sexual intimacy between the two characters.  And looking at the original series as if it is book one in a series of novels (or, I don't know, maybe books 1 - 4 of a series), I can say that I'm ultimately fine with where they ended up because where they ended up comports with what I saw were the themes all along - the themes of trust, of loss and how we make sense of loss, and how we gravitate to others who have experienced loss. But, I don't know, it just seems so juvenile (or, as I said, so 19th century tortured British romance) to assert (and here I'm talking about the general "noromo" argument, not directing it at anyone here) that a chaste and platonic relationship - full of longing but no actual sex - is more meaningful than one that includes sexual intimacy and all of the messy emotions it brings. At the end of the day, much as I really did like Don and Peggy's relationship within the context of that show, IMO the total scope of Mulder and Scully's relationship - including the sex - is what puts them into the next level of the pantheon of characters. In other words, I think you could rightfully place these two next to Tristan & Isolde, Lancelot & Guinevere, Beatrix and Benedick in terms of literature's greatest lovers, if ever they start thinking about television characters in that way.  And I actually cannot think of any other television characters that can be said of.

[madam magpie]

That's fair. I do think that if the show had gone nine seasons and attempted to get me to believe that Mulder and Scully had an epic romance but never had sex, I'd call bullshit. I just don't mind that it took a long time, that they didn't talk about it much, or that the friendship was paramount. The friendship is much more interesting to me, but I also consider it essential to a successful romantic relationship. And I don't find them especially chaste...just traditional and slightly inexperienced (with relationships, I don't mean virginal). Scully is Catholic, after all. There was a great moment in the first season where some guy made a comment about her being hot. Mulder jokes, but then says something like, "What? I can believe someone would think you're hot." Scully's embarrassed, but when she turns her back to him, she smiles. There was something very young about that moment, and many moments to come had the same feel. Early on, they do seem young, Scully especially. Maybe it's because Gillian herself was so young? I find it sweet and charming, though, not unrealistic. I saw an interview with Gillian where she called Scully "kind of square." And she is! But I like that and that the show allows her the space to grow up.

It's interesting that you define "lovers" as including all of the pieces of a romantic partnership. I don't. To me, it's just people having sex. But your read of it all makes more sense knowing that.

Epic TV romances on par with classic literature? That's an interesting idea. There really is something sweeping about the Mulder/Scully pairing, isn't there? I think it's the slow burn, though. I mean, look at Jane Eyre, my personal favorite, sweeping, tortured, 19th-century romance. Jane doesn't have sex with Rochester until the very end, and you just have to assume it because they married and had a child. They don't talk about it or say they did it. Nothing feels false because it took the whole book. I feel like it's that old-school romantic, plutonic approach to storytelling that makes Mulder/Scully sweeping. It's not so much immature longing as a more traditional approach to romance. Sex is everywhere now, and it's become (in some ways) much less sacred than it used to be. So by making the friendship the focus, you take the attention off of an overplayed act that's become kind of empty and put it on the depth of the love they have for each other as people. That's a well that seems pretty bottomless to me.

Edited February 20, 2016 by madam magpie

[Baby Button Eyes]

This thread is great if not just for the term "sheet eating Mulder" to come to exisitence.

Two more days until the last time for who knows how long til we see them again, that's scarier than any X-File they investigated.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

'Friends with Benefits'. She said that M & S have sex every so often. It was in an interview for the new season. I think it was Good Day La. Here's the interview itself.

 

Lmao @ the 'Chris knows best' comment though. I'd say otherwise. That the other writers know the characters a bit better.

 

And 'we need the tension'... really? There was hardly any to be found! Apart from ep 1. :\

 

'happily ever after being boring'? Ugh. I guess I'd agree, if the writing was good and things weren't so glossed over. But where the characters are at now, no thanks. That's boring to me.

 

'perfect way for them to continue'? Nope. Considering how it was handled. 

 

'if they admitted to themselves, that's what they wanted all along...' NO. Big giant NO to that Gillian. Wrong. Please don't tell fans that that's what they want. Really? /facepalm Not every fan wants that. I don't mind some tension, but please let it be original and not just the same old stuff. Breaking up is just a lame excuse.

 

Sorry about that guys, but I swear some interviews have me shaking my head.

 

Here's the sex part: 'but we can have sex once in a while..' <-- in regards to M & S

 

Back to s7 though... I'd say there was more tension in that season than there was in s10. And the characters just felt more like themselves.

 

So I don't think that is what Gillian Anderson is saying that this is what Chris Carter is saying about their break up.  That reads more to me like Gillian Anderson's philosophy regarding romantic relationships rather than an analysis of Scully's. I just don't think that there is any way that M&S could ever function as "friends with benefits" - they are entirely unable to disentangle themselves from each other to do so. Even when they weren't sleeping together, they were completely involved with each other, and it just got even more Shakespearean when they were together romantically.

 

I do think that she's right that fans want to see all of the angst between Mulder and Scully and personally, I wouldn't want happily ever after. But I can't imagine Mulder and Scully ever having happily ever after, even when they are romantically involved.  Sleeping with someone, being committed to them romantically and spiritually and what have you - that doesn't mean that suddenly every conflict between you goes away.  (Not in my experience, anyway).

 

The break up, as it was handled in this miniseries, didn't really bother me because I actually do feel as if they made it organic to the characters (and I give Carter credit for that). But I do come back to feeling as if Glen Morgan and James Wong are so much less interested in focusing on the tension between Mulder and Scully and way more interested in exploring what binds them, so again, we the audience end up with some whiplash because we have two different conceptions of their relationship. And I think Darin Morgan just thinks that Mulder should thank his lucky stars every single day of his life that Scully not only is a part of Mulder's life, but wants to be.

Edited March 15, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[Bastet]

But I can't imagine Mulder and Scully ever having happily ever after, even when they are romantically involved.

 

I can't fathom a traditional, "happily ever after," life for them, either, and would thus never want to see that; it wouldn't feel right.  I do think they will always love each other, always be in love with each other, and thus always be together in that sense.  They're not going to get seriously involved with anyone else, cut all ties, or anything like that.  But I absolutely think they will continue to have angst and conflict, sometimes to the point they need breaks from living together and being together day in, day out -- like what we see in season ten, a time in which the relationship feels pretty close to pitch perfect to me (thanks mostly to the actors).

[AntiBeeSpray]

So I don't think that is what Gillian Anderson is saying that this is what Chris Carter is saying about their break up.  That reads more to me like Gillian Anderson's philosophy regarding romantic relationships rather than an analysis of Scully's. I just don't think that there is any way that M&S could ever function as "friends with benefits" - they are entirely unable to disentangle themselves from each other to do so. Even when they weren't sleeping together, they were completely involved with each other, and it just got even more Shakespearean when they were together romantically.

 

I do think that she's right that fans want to see all of the angst between Mulder and Scully and personally, I wouldn't want happily ever after. But I can't imagine Mulder and Scully ever having happily ever after, even when they are romantically involved.  Sleeping with someone, being committed to them romantically and spiritually and what have you - that doesn't mean that suddenly every conflict between you goes away.  (Not in my experience, anyway).

 

The break up, as it was handled in this miniseries, didn't really bother me because I actually do feel as if they made it organic to the characters (and I give Carter credit for that). But I do come back to feeling as if Glen Morgan and James Wong are so much less interested in focusing on the tension between Mulder and Scully and way more interested in exploring what binds them, so again, we the audience end up with some whiplash because we have two different conceptions of their relationship. And I think Darin Morgan just thinks that Mulder should thank his lucky stars every single day of his life that Scully not only is a part of Mulder's life, but wants to be.

 

It could be. But frankly it makes more sense than what CC is trying to do. Fair point, but from all appearances they've been reduced to that. And it sucks. CC said their relationship didn't work because they both couldn't work at the same time 'para-phrasing here'. It's just a cop out to me.

 

Wrong. I'm not one of those fans. But I do agree that not all conflict goes away. I don't mind some tension and drama, but not uberdrama, which the XF has devolved into in my opinion. It gets SO sad and depressing that I don't like it anymore. Glen handled his episode well in that area, it was there, but it wasn't overwhelming. As for happily ever after, I don't need it either... but together, is one thing I'd like to see. Somewhat happy, like in Je Souhaite would be a good place to be.

 

How do you find it to be that? I don't... at least not with how CC did it. Once again glossing over how something came to be. Really? :\ If it wasn't glossed over I'd be more ok with it. I just find that kind of story telling to be rather cheap. Yep. We have to come back to CC's idea of a relationship, which seems to be rather cheap and shallow. Heck I'd take what Darin had to offer over it. 

 

What I said originally:

 

She said that M & S have sex every so often. It was in an interview for the new season. I think it was Good Day La. Here's the interview itself.

Lmao @ the 'Chris knows best' comment though. I'd say otherwise. That the other writers know the characters a bit better.

And 'we need the tension'... really? There was hardly any to be found! Apart from ep 1. :\

'happily ever after being boring'? Ugh. I guess I'd agree, if the writing was good and things weren't so glossed over. But where the characters are at now, no thanks. That's boring to me.

'perfect way for them to continue'? Nope. Considering how it was handled.

'if they admitted to themselves, that's what they wanted all along...' NO. Big giant NO to that Gillian. Wrong. Please don't tell fans that that's what they want. Really? /facepalm Not every fan wants that. I don't mind some tension, but please let it be original and not just the same old stuff. Breaking up is just a lame excuse.

Sorry about that guys, but I swear some interviews have me shaking my head.

 

I can't fathom a traditional, "happily ever after," life for them, either, and would thus never want to see that; it wouldn't feel right.  I do think they will always love each other, always be in love with each other, and thus always be together in that sense.  They're not going to get seriously involved with anyone else, cut all ties, or anything like that.  But I absolutely think they will continue to have angst and conflict, sometimes to the point they need breaks from living together and being together day in, day out -- like what we see in season ten, a time in which the relationship feels pretty close to pitch perfect to me (thanks mostly to the actors).

 

Not to me. It felt off due to the glossing over of how those cracks came to be. The actors did the best they could with an untenable situation. 

[madam magpie]

I think Gillian was just making a joke, but I also don't necessarily think "friends with benefits" and "in love but not traditionally together" are necessarily mutually exclusive. It's not all spelled out for us, so the audience is left to wonder. But I can see Mulder/Scully living their lives, doing their jobs, being extremely close as friends, having sex now and then, and not being interested in other people. That actually seems like the most plausible explanation of their relationship beginning around the time Scully went into remission. I know Mulder makes a couple of comments to other characters to the contrary, but I'd believe they started sleeping together after her cancer. They started behaving that way, at least.

Edited March 15, 2016 by madam magpie

[AntiBeeSpray]

I think Gillian was just making a joke, but I also don't necessarily think "friends with benefits" and "in love but not traditionally together" are necessarily mutually exclusive. It's not all spelled out for us, so the audience is left to wonder. But I can see Mulder/Scully living their lives, doing their jobs, being extremely close as friends, having sex now and then, and not being interested in other people. That actually seems like the most plausible explanation of their relationship beginning around the time Scully went into remission. I know Mulder makes a couple of comments to other characters to the contrary, but I'd believe they started sleeping together after her cancer. They started behaving that way, at least.

Yea I think so too, but I still take that over anything CC says. Yep and after all this time, that's just gotten a bit old for some fans. Having to guess almost everything ends up being too much of a hassle. I can too, whether CC likes it or not :p. I don't think it was that early, but I can see them getting together around s7. No doubt.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I basically take Scully at her word in Rain King that they hadn't shared a kiss, so I don't think it was right after her remission.  But, as I said in the season 7 thread, I don't really buy that they aren't sleeping together after the last scene in The Unnatural because the intimacy in that scene is off the charts.

 

But I can see Mulder/Scully living their lives, doing their jobs, being extremely close as friends, having sex now and then, and not being interested in other people.

 

I just don't see it that way for these two particular people, not for people in general.  Neither is the type to be particularly casual about their sexual encounters (for all of Mulder's porn addiction).  In 9 years of the show, the only time we saw either character having sex with anyone is when they both had hit particularly low points in their lives.  It just seems very unlikely to me that they would have sex casually, even with each other.  Like I said, these are two people who have declared that they can only trust each other, who will tear the world apart if they think that the other one is in danger, and yet, they have a casual sexual encounter? It just doesn't track for how I see the characters (I recognize others see it differently).

 

How do you find it to be that? I don't... at least not with how CC did it. Once again glossing over how something came to be. Really? :\ If it wasn't glossed over I'd be more ok with it. I just find that kind of story telling to be rather cheap. Yep. We have to come back to CC's idea of a relationship, which seems to be rather cheap and shallow. Heck I'd take what Darin had to offer over it.

 

Okay, so I think we're talking about two different things here - I am comfortable with where we came back into their story, in that I do understand how it is that Mulder and Scully, and their entire history, could weigh heavily on both of them. So I could see how it is that they needed a break, especially Scully.  But I also agree with you that having more insight into their split would have been nice, especially because CLEARLY William was a factor in it. Mulder has been seemingly endlessly patient with Scully regarding William's adoption but maybe he felt more resentment about it than he let on. Could that have been a contributing factor? Is it just Scully's guilt? Is it just that they got too claustrophobic in that little house? I agree that there are unanswered questions there.  So I don't disagree with you entirely, I just felt that their break was plausible and organic given where they are in their lives.

Edited March 15, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[madam magpie]

Yea I think so too, but I still take that over anything CC says. Yep and after all this time, that's just gotten a bit old for some fans. Having to guess almost everything ends up being too much of a hassle. I can too, whether CC likes it or not :p. I don't think it was that early, but I can see them getting together around s7. No doubt.

You know, often ambiguity bugs me, but it doesn't here. I feel like the ambiguity is part of the relationship; maybe it's somewhat fluid and ambiguous for them too? I feel like these aren't people who are going to sit down and lay out the parameters of their relationship. They'll just move forward by feel. And interestingly, when Scully kind of tries to do it later, she mostly fails. Mulder just really is a guy you have to take for who he is. Good or bad (and I could certainly go on about all the ways he's bad for her), he doesn't change, and that intensity/commitment seems to both very strongly attract and hurt her. So I feel like she'd mostly just go with it as best she could. I think that's why I buy where they are in season 10. She's a lot closer to acceptance...or resigned to her fate? You really could write entire analyses about why she should cut ties with him, but I believe that she can't. So instead, she's finding a way to live within the constraints of his personality.

[AntiBeeSpray]

I basically take Scully at her word in Rain King that they hadn't shared a kiss, so I don't think it was right after her remission.  But, as I said in the season 7 thread, I don't really buy that they aren't sleeping together after the last scene in The Unnatural because the intimacy in that scene is off the charts.

 

 

I just don't see it that way for these two particular people, not for people in general.  Neither is the type to be particularly casual about their sexual encounters (for all of Mulder's porn addiction).  In 9 years of the show, the only time we saw either character having sex with anyone is when they both had hit particularly low points in their lives.  It just seems very unlikely to me that they would have sex casually, even with each other.  Like I said, these are two people who have declared that they can only trust each other, who will tear the world apart if they think that the other one is in danger, and yet, they have a casual sexual encounter? It just doesn't track for how I see the characters (I recognize others see it differently).

 

 

Okay, so I think we're talking about two different things here - I am comfortable with where we came back into their story, in that I do understand how it is that Mulder and Scully, and their entire history, could weigh heavily on both of them. So I could see how it is that they needed a break, especially Scully.  But I also agree with you that having more insight into their split would have been nice, especially because CLEARLY William was a factor in it. Mulder has been seemingly endlessly patient with Scully regarding William's adoption but maybe he felt more resentment about it than he let on. Could that have been a contributing factor? Is it just Scully's guilt? Is it just that they got too claustrophobic in that little house? I agree that there are unanswered questions there.  So I don't disagree with you entirely, I just felt that their break was plausible and organic given where they are in their lives.

 

Who knows? But all we're doing is making up excuses for poor writing. Nothing new I guess. But I'm just tired of having to fill in almost every blank.

 

Maybe it could have been one of your reasons, but as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't that plausible or organic to me.

 

I think one of the biggest problems for me at least was with how Mulder was portrayed in ep 6. With Scully saying that Mulder wasn't sure if she'd believe him (para-phrasing here). It just seemed rather out of place. Overall I didn't like how he's been turned into a bum/loser. Scully's been boosted to a super scientist, and Mulder's been left out to rot :(. Ugh. That bugs me more than where their relationship is at.

 

You know, often ambiguity bugs me, but it doesn't here. I feel like the ambiguity is part of the relationship; maybe it's somewhat fluid and ambiguous for them too? I feel like these aren't people who are going to sit down and lay out the parameters of their relationship. They'll just move forward by feel. And interestingly, when Scully kind of tries to do it later, she mostly fails. Mulder just really is a guy you have to take for who he is. Good or bad (and I could certainly go on about all the ways he's bad for her), he doesn't change, and that intensity/commitment seems to both very strongly attract and hurt her. So I feel like she'd mostly just go with it as best she could. I think that's why I buy where they are in season 10. She's a lot closer to acceptance...or resigned to her fate? You really could write entire analyses about why she should cut ties with him, but I believe that she can't. So instead, she's finding a way to live within the constraints of his personality.

 

Maybe. But now it just feels cheap and forced in part to me. Not all of it thankfully, but what CC had to offer didn't give us much to go off of. I don't envy David and Gillian having to work with it and I don't envy the other writers. They did the best with what they were given.

 

Could be. But it's just not enough anymore.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Who knows? But all we're doing is making up excuses for poor writing. Nothing new I guess. But I'm just tired of having to fill in almost every blank.

 

Maybe it could have been one of your reasons, but as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't that plausible or organic to me.

 

Maybe. But now it just feels cheap and forced in part to me. Not all of it thankfully, but what CC had to offer didn't give us much to go off of. I don't envy David and Gillian having to work with it and I don't envy the other writers. They did the best with what they were given.

 

Could be. But it's just not enough anymore.

 

But here's where I do agree with madam magpie in that I am not sure it is poor writing as much as it is inherent to these two character's inability to express some of their deeper feelings towards each other.  Part of why it feels organic to me is that I absolutely buy the idea that they lived together for years, and still couldn't really talk about their sense of pain and loss.  Both have experienced tremendous loss in their lives, both fear losing each other more than they actually fear their own deaths, and yet both are often at a loss for words when it comes to talking about that stuff.  Even Mulder, who is less shut off from his emotions, isn't exactly Mr. Expressive when it comes to his real feelings for Scully. That's why he buys her things like Superstars of the Super Bowl and the Apollo 11 key chain, because he likes to deflect when he feels most vulnerable about her.

 

So while I would like more - and was pleased with what we got from Scully in these six episodes but would like to know more about Mulder - I don't think the ambiguity is as much bad writing as it is inherent to how the writers have always seen these two.

[AntiBeeSpray]

But here's where I do agree with madam magpie in that I am not sure it is poor writing as much as it is inherent to these two character's inability to express some of their deeper feelings towards each other.  Part of why it feels organic to me is that I absolutely buy the idea that they lived together for years, and still couldn't really talk about their sense of pain and loss.  Both have experienced tremendous loss in their lives, both fear losing each other more than they actually fear their own deaths, and yet both are often at a loss for words when it comes to talking about that stuff.  Even Mulder, who is less shut off from his emotions, isn't exactly Mr. Expressive when it comes to his real feelings for Scully. That's why he buys her things like Superstars of the Super Bowl and the Apollo 11 key chain, because he likes to deflect when he feels most vulnerable about her.

 

So while I would like more - and was pleased with what we got from Scully in these six episodes but would like to know more about Mulder - I don't think the ambiguity is as much bad writing as it is inherent to how the writers have always seen these two.

 

Perhaps. But it just seemed so much worse. I guess it's due to the shortened season format maybe? *shrug* :\ It just seemed to amplify the show's weak points instead of showing its strengths. Too much ambiguity isn't good for any show in my opinion. And it just seemed to be too much this go for me.

[festivus]

You know, often ambiguity bugs me, but it doesn't here. I feel like the ambiguity is part of the relationship; maybe it's somewhat fluid and ambiguous for them too? I feel like these aren't people who are going to sit down and lay out the parameters of their relationship. They'll just move forward by feel. And interestingly, when Scully kind of tries to do it later, she mostly fails. Mulder just really is a guy you have to take for who he is. Good or bad (and I could certainly go on about all the ways he's bad for her), he doesn't change, and that intensity/commitment seems to both very strongly attract and hurt her. So I feel like she'd mostly just go with it as best she could. I think that's why I buy where they are in season 10. She's a lot closer to acceptance...or resigned to her fate? You really could write entire analyses about why she should cut ties with him, but I believe that she can't. So instead, she's finding a way to live within the constraints of his personality.

 

This show was 10 years of ambiguity! Oh man, if I was a writer I would write an analysis on why Mulder is so bad for her. And yet I'm still a huge shipper. I wasn't kidding in the UO thread when I said she should run off with Doggett. Okay, I'm a weird kind of shipper. The reason why I'm not upset about them not being together now is because of how Mulder is. I think he would just be really hard to live with all the time. But yeah, I do think Scully is coming to terms with it in season 10.

 

Part of why it feels organic to me is that I absolutely buy the idea that they lived together for years, and still couldn't really talk about their sense of pain and loss.  Both have experienced tremendous loss in their lives, both fear losing each other more than they actually fear their own deaths, and yet both are often at a loss for words when it comes to talking about that stuff.

 

Yep, I agree with this.

Edited March 15, 2016 by festivus

[AntiBeeSpray]

This show was 10 years of ambiguity! Oh man, if I was a writer I would write an analysis on why Mulder is so bad for her. And yet I'm still a huge shipper. I wasn't kidding in the UO thread when I said she should run off with Doggett. Okay, I'm a weird kind of shipper. The reason why I'm not upset about them not being together now is because of how Mulder is. I think he would just be really hard to live with all the time. But yeah, I do think Scully is coming to terms with it in season 10.

 

Apart from any obsession, how is he hard to live with?

 

I think a lot of that came from the writers themselves.

[festivus]

Just speaking for myself, the obsession is why he'd be hard to live with. I also think that when he's not obsessed he's depressed. That would be hard to live with. It doesn't make it right for people to leave in this situation but they do it all the time. I could see Scully leaving for her own mental health. 

[AntiBeeSpray]

Just speaking for myself, the obsession is why he'd be hard to live with. I also think that when he's not obsessed he's depressed. That would be hard to live with. It doesn't make it right for people to leave in this situation but they do it all the time. I could see Scully leaving for her own mental health. 

 

Fair point. Yea probably. Could be the case. But CC describing him the way he did, certainly didn't do those kinds of issues any favors. It's not easy, but it can be dealt with, instead of being treated like a joke or just a plot point.

[Baby Button Eyes]

I basically take Scully at her word in Rain King that they hadn't shared a kiss, so I don't think it was right after her remission. But, as I said in the season 7 thread, I don't really buy that they aren't sleeping together after the last scene in The Unnatural because the intimacy in that scene is off the charts.

I know trying to make sense of the timeline is a bit nuts because it's the X-Files but I have my "theory" even if I never really advocated their romance. But I believe if they started "something" intimate after the Milagro episode ends and the Unnatural begins. In Milagro, Padgette leaves it hanging open with saying that Scully is already in love which left Mulder no doubt wondering about that. And at the very end, Scully is doing something she never really did before, crying, sobbing openly in Mulder's neck, clutching at him like she can never let go. I figure if anything, after the episode ended, they probably figured some ice was broken and talked about some stuff and revealed things after that whole Padgette writing sexual stuff about Scully, her telling Mulder he should know her better than that, Mulder thinking she might have actually been dead on the floor, etc. Things are more open now because...

Once The Unnatural begins, the first scene between them is surprisingly casual and fun loving with the jokes and the ice cream teasing, eating, laughing. Which surprised me cause they weren't really THAT lighthearted that I had seen at that flirty (for Scully) level and of course the end with the touchy feely baseball playing with Scully giggling like a schoolgirl. Something happened between these episodes. I think it started inbetween those episodes. Sorry to interrupt, but the thought came to me suddenly.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Baby Button Eyes

[festivus]

Fair point. Yea probably. Could be the case. But CC describing him the way he did, certainly didn't do those kinds of issues any favors. It's not easy, but it can be dealt with, instead of being treated like a joke or just a plot point.

 

I didn't read anything CC had to say this time around. Better for the sanity. ; ) I'm just going by what I think.

[AntiBeeSpray]

I didn't read anything CC had to say this time around. Better for the sanity. ; ) I'm just going by what I think.

 

Yea I'll be doing that next time around. ;) Ah.

[madam magpie]

Apart from any obsession, how is he hard to live with?

I think a lot of that came from the writers themselves.

In the 2008 movie, Scully tells him exactly what she needs: she wants to move away from the ugliness and darkness of their lives with the X-files and be two people who come home at night. Implied in that is that she wants safety, security, sanity, and calm. Mulder says flat-out that he can't be that guy, and so she says she doesn't know what to do and she has to leave him. She doesn't do it for good in that movie, but the implication for me was that she did leave in the years between that and season 10.

I think she really struggles with the extent of his obsession with these dark, dangerous things...even as his commitment to his cause is a huge draw for her. She says that too, that it's why she fell in love with him. But I can see how the dark side of that personality would wear a person down and why the guy who brings it into the sanctuary that should be her home would be super hard to live with day in and day out. I wouldn't want it, and if Scully were my friend, I'd desperately want her to leave that guy. But I really don't think she can. Her whole life, career, emotional world, etc. is bound up with him, and she loves him. She doesn't actually want to leave him.

Edited March 15, 2016 by madam magpie

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Just speaking for myself, the obsession is why he'd be hard to live with. I also think that when he's not obsessed he's depressed. That would be hard to live with. It doesn't make it right for people to leave in this situation but they do it all the time. I could see Scully leaving for her own mental health. 

 

Again, speaking from personal experience, living with someone who is that single-mindedly devoted to a cause is not easy even if it is a cause you share. Plus, Mulder is stubborn to the point of folly, and I can only imagine how difficult he would be on that score. That being said, to be fair to Mulder, I am not sure how easy Scully is to live with either.  She is far more regimented in her thinking, and can be just as stubborn and headstrong as he is.

 

I know trying to make sense of the timeline is a bit nuts because it's the X-Files but I have my "theory" even if I never really advocated their romance. But I believe if they started "something" intimate after the Milagro episode ends and the Unnatural begins. In Milagro, Padgette leaves it hanging open with saying that Scully is already in love which left Mulder no doubt wondering about that. And at the very end, Scully is doing something she never really did before, crying, sobbing openly in Mulder's neck, clutching at him like she can never let go. I figure if anything, after the episode ended, they probably figured some ice was broken and talked about some stuff and revealed things after that whole Padgette writing sexual stuff about Scully, her telling Mulder he should know her better than that, Mulder thinking she might have actually been dead on the floor, etc. Things are more open now because...

Once The Unnatural begins, the first scene between them is surprisingly casual and fun loving with the jokes and the ice cream teasing, eating, laughing. Which surprised me cause they weren't really THAT lighthearted that I had seen at that flirty (for Scully) level and of course the end with the touchy feely baseball playing with Scully giggling like a schoolgirl. Something happened between these episodes. I think it started inbetween those episodes. Sorry to interrupt, but the thought came to me suddenly.

 

That timeline makes sense to me. I haven't seen Milagro in years, but I've rewatched that last scene over the last few days and her reaction is intense.  It's almost like she's clawing at him in relief.

Edited March 15, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[AntiBeeSpray]

In the 2008 movie, Scully tells him exactly what she needs: she wants to move away from the ugliness and darkness of their lives with the X-files and be two people who come home at night. Implied in that is that she wants safety, security, sanity, and calm. Mulder says flat-out that he can't be that guy, and so she says she doesn't know what to do and she has to leave him. She doesn't do it for good in that movie, but the implication for me was that she did leave in the years between that and season 10.

I think she really struggles with the extent of his obsession with these dark, dangerous things...even as his commitment to his cause is a huge draw for her. She says that too, that it's why she fell in love with him. But I can see how the dark side of that personality would wear a person down and why the guy who brings it into the sanctuary that should be her home would be super hard to live with day in and day out. I wouldn't want it, and if Scully were my friend, I'd desperately want her to leave that guy. But I really don't think she can. Her whole life, career, emotional world, etc. is bound up with him, and she loves him. She doesn't actually want to leave him.

 

Good point. But I still viewed what happened there to be rather weak. In regards to the darkness. I hated that point then, and I still do now. And Mulder gave it up for her at the end of the movie. He tried his best. It obviously didn't work. 

 

I think he realized (once AGAIN) that it's time for him to move on from it, but it feels so ridiculous. Best way that I can justify it is that Scully finally realized that she has to move forward WITH him, and not just him. That's the best way I can even try to interpret Babylon's ending with the 'trying to find the common language' line.

[madam magpie]

Good point. But I still viewed what happened there to be rather weak. In regards to the darkness. I hated that point then, and I still do now. And Mulder gave it up for her at the end of the movie. He tried his best. It obviously didn't work.

I think he realized (once AGAIN) that it's time for him to move on from it, but it feels so ridiculous. Best way that I can justify it is that Scully finally realized that she has to move forward WITH him, and not just him. That's the best way I can even try to interpret Babylon's ending with the 'trying to find the common language' line.

That's how I interpreted it too. And you're right: Mulder did try. He does love her and wants to give her what she needs. He just can't. I think he fails because it's a true obsession. So Scully's trying to figure out where she fits in that.

I like the estrangement, actually. It feels real to me. I'm noticing on my rewatch how strongly single-minded and frustrating Mulder can be. I just watched the one with the green goo plant that digests people in the cave, and I thought, "Good lord. I wish poor Scully could just find a nice guy who didn't almost get her killed every week." But that would be boring...for us and her. :) Passion can be incredibly attractive, even when it's bad for you.

Edited March 16, 2016 by madam magpie

[AntiBeeSpray]

That's how I interpreted it too. And you're right: Mulder did try. He does love her and want to give her what she needs. But I think he fails because it's a true obsession. So Scully's trying to figure out where she fits in that.

I like the estrangement, actually. It feels real to me. I'm even noticing on my rewatch how strongly single-minded and frustrating Mulder can be. I just watched the one with the green goo plant that digests people in the cave, and I thought, "Good lord. I wish poor Scully could just find a nice guy who didn't almost get her killed every week." But that would be boring...for us and her. :) Passion can be incredibly attractive, even when it's bad for you.

 

Maybe.

 

I don't. Glad you're able to find it that way though. To me it still feels like yet another plot point. 

[GreenScreenFX]

I feel a bit weird trying to pinpoint when Scully and Mulder got down to it. I agree with the above poster that is was between Milagro and The Unatural. There was a clear shift in flirtation from that point.

My question.... Were the actors told at this point, or did they decide "enough was enough" and decided to play it that way?

Edited March 16, 2016 by GreenScreenFX

[Bastet]

It seems clear from interviews at the time that GA and DD decided to play a sexual subtext before it became text, and CC just sort of caught up to the inevitable.  So ... thanks, guys!

[AntiBeeSpray]

It seems clear from interviews at the time that GA and DD decided to play a sexual subtext before it became text, and CC just sort of caught up to the inevitable.  So ... thanks, guys!

 

Yea. And it took him long enough lol.

 

And now he considers it boring /facepalm. It's now the party line. M & S in a relationship = boring.

 

Really guys? I've seen my share of shows where two characters in a relationship isn't boring. It comes down to good writing in my opinion.

[GreenScreenFX]

I find it funny that GA and DD seemed to go over the head of the writers and " do it anyway"

[AntiBeeSpray]

I find it funny that GA and DD seemed to go over the head of the writers and " do it anyway"

 

So do I.

 

But sometimes they don't do that.

 

Gillian said awhile back in an interview that 'Chris knows best' for the characters. 

 

I about fell over laughing after hearing that. It's been quite awhile since I've viewed him in that light.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I feel a bit weird trying to pinpoint when Scully and Mulder got down to it. I agree with the above poster that is was between Milagro and The Unatural. There was a clear shift in flirtation from that point.

My question.... Were the actors told at this point, or did they decide "enough was enough" and decided to play it that way?

Re timeline - first of all, I want to make it clear that I know we'll never get a definitive answer on these things. And I also know that some things are happy accidents and this is probably one of those cases.  But it is kind of telling that Mulder makes the comment about Scully's "biological clock ticking" in The Unnatural.  Given the fact that we know that he knows that Scully has been rendered infertile by the experiments done to her, it comes off as super insensitive.  But if they've already had some conversation about it - even if it wasn't Scully asking him to be the father - but just some general conversation about her unwillingness to accept that fate, then that might be some insight into the timeline. To be sure, I don't think Duchovney really was foreshadowing the pregnancy plot (like I said, I think that this was probably accidental). But still, it (somewhat) works from a timeline perspective.

 

On a separate issue - I've been thinking over the last few days that I really wish that there had been more female writers on the show, not just because I think they would have had more insight into Scully but primarily because I think we might have actually gotten more insight into Mulder.  In other words, as the seasons went on, I feel as if so many of the writers were a little in love with Scully, and were really fascinated by writing her because they felt like she was this idealized woman.  Meanwhile, poor Mulder got a little bit neglected, and I wonder if that might not have changed if they had more women writers to explore his motivations. To be fair to Chris Carter, I give him credit for being one of the writers who has been consistently focused on Mulder and his journey - the results may be uneven, but at least he tries to explore Mulder's psyche.

Edited March 17, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[GreenScreenFX]

I agree, female writers might have given Mulder a better backstory.

Edited March 19, 2016 by GreenScreenFX

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I agree, female writers might have given Mulder a better backstory.

 

It's less his backstory, which obviously propels the narrative in the early years, and more his progression as a character. Mulder is less inscrutable than Scully is, but he does have layers and I feel like that got overlooked as the show went on. So much of Mulder's progression as a character became about reacting to Scully - her cancer, their relationship, her pregnancy - and while I don't object to that, I wish it was rounded out a little more.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Watched "War of the Coprophages" last night and came to the realization that both Morgans are really the biggest shippers alive when it comes to The X-Files writers (with maybe the exception of David Duchovney himself, since his episodes are basically just gigantic ship-fests).

 

I mean, sure, Darin Morgan clearly just loves writing Scully as this eminently rational but empathetic human being who grounds Mulder, who he clearly regards as looney-tunes. But meanwhile, in "War of the Coprophages," Scully is super eager to help Mulder and visibly jealous of Dr. Bambi Berenbaum. It's too bad this is the closest that Morgan wrote to a "screwball comedy" because Duchovney and Anderson would be great in that kind of episode.

 

And then you look at Glen Morgan episodes, and they are all angst-ridden and shipperiffic, from "Ice" to "One Breath" to "Never Again" to "Home Again."  Even "Home" itself is playing around with these ideas of Mulder and Scully both thinking about parenthood and clearly thinking about it with each other and that's all before we get to the meat of their relationship in seasons 5 - 7, etc.

 

All of this is to say that I think that for all of their cynical veneers, I think that both Darin and Glen Morgan are actually romantic softies at heart.

[AntiBeeSpray]

Word. They proved themselves in s10 too. Even with Darin's view of Mulder, I think he was poking at CC's take on him. I didn't mind the ep itself (for the most part). It was really well done and Mulder was able to be himself again in the end. As for Glen, Home Again was beautiful. Imperfect, but beautiful. The way he does angst is balanced with the love and the characters themselves. They both care for M & S and it shows in their work.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

We watched Fight The Future the other night (because that's where we are on the rewatch) - it's been years since I had seen it, so it was nice to revisit.

But here's my problem with it and with the direction that the show took Mulder and Scully's relationship in seasons 6 and 7 - it feels like the writers were just so afraid that the show would become too romantic, and so at this point they were going to truly artificial lengths to keep them apart. The thing that annoys me about the fact that they don't kiss in FTF isn't that I think Carter/Bowman are toying with the audience. It's that the entire movie - which is entirely about Mulder and Scully's relationship and how much they need each other and can't function without each other - is building to that moment.  From a narrative perspective, it makes sense for them to kiss. (I am fine with just the suggestion of a sex scene, we don't need to see it to know what will happen).  And the fact that they pull the rug out at the last moment feels like the show losing its nerve.

And what annoys me about that are the reasons why the show might lose its nerve.  The X-Files occupied this interesting territory where women were becoming more and more a part of nerdy fandoms, and TXF had a number of female fans.  So it sometimes feel like to me that they didn't want to be more explicit about their relationship because it felt to the writers that they were catering too much to their female fans.  (Now, to be sure, I don't think that they were consciously thinking that way - but I bet if you looked at the breakdown in the 1990s, a majority of female fans were shippers and a majority of non-shippers were men).  And I think that they were worried to some extent about losing their genre cred because they didn't want the show to become a "soap opera" (which is a common criticism of any show that is explicitly marketed towards women or deals with romance on any level).  I mean, this is just my theory about why they didn't go through with the kiss - because they knew that they would have to deal with the aftermath of it in season 6 - and they weren't really quite psychologically ready to do that.

I actually am fine with what they came up with in terms of the relationship taking place primarily off screen, but at the end of the day, I feel as if that is because David Duchovney and Gillian Anderson basically forced the subtext to become text. I just think that should have happened a season earlier. (Or, you know, maybe a half season because I still believe they started sleeping together on or near The Unnatural).

[AntiBeeSpray]

Word to all of that.

I hated that in FTF. It was a joke then and it still is now. The whole break them up to bring back the tension is even MORE artificial than what we got in s6. I hate it.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

We watched En Ami last night, which is another one of those episodes that is really about Mulder & Scully's relationship but masquerading as something else.  At some point, I'd like to watch Never Again, Milagro, and En Ami in succession because I think you'd see the progression of M&S's relationship really clearly.

I mean, Mulder is clearly confused and hurt at the end of Never Again, but I don't get the sense that he is really angry. He just feels abandoned and ignored, and since Scully is the only person he has a close relationship with, it manifests itself in the edge we hear in his voice at the end of that episode.  And then with Milagro, I think he is really just concerned because he knows that under normal circumstances, Scully would think that Padgett is a creep. 

En Ami is one of the few times that I can think of where Mulder is legitimately angry with Scully. (The only other time I can think of is in Ice, after she pulls the gun on him. Mulder in his angry but calm mode is terrifying, and it is interesting that we only see that a few times throughout the series).  And I think it really does reflect the way that their relationship has changed. Because I do think that they are sleeping together at this point, I think he feels way more betrayed by Scully's actions - and way more concerned about not being there to help her if she needs it - than he did in those previous episodes. 

Though, of course, there is also the interesting fact that we see Mulder going to the super of her building to get into her apartment. We know that Scully has had a key to his apartment since season 2, so I am fascinated by the fact that this late into the series, he is apparently without one. (Though I could also fanwank that by presuming that Scully had the locks changed after Closure, since CSM was seemingly able to get into her apartment then). I think that this episode, for all of its flaws, exposes some of the ambiguities that both are feeling about their relationship and is actually kind of pivotal for them in thinking about moving forward and actually acknowledging how they both feel.

Edited May 23, 2016 by eleanorofaquitaine

[Neptune]

[Taryn74]

Well that fills my heart with all kinds of glee.

Mulder's hair has gotten decidedly flatter.  Hee.